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Author Topic: Second Saturn return and karmic blocks  (Read 2778 times)
ari moshe
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« on: Mar 17, 2010, 11:27 PM »

Hi everyone, I've been reflecting on the nature and reason for JWG's statements about Pluto on the sn manifested as 3 possible conditions:
Relive
Fruition
Mixture of both

In all of those cases there is an implied block to moving forward to develop the nn until the second saturn return, unless other mitigating factors are present in the chart.

My questions:
1. what are those mitigating factors (Is Pluto on the sn as well as being the ruler of the nn one of them?)
2. Is this a general rule for all planets on the sn as well? I.E. even Venus?
3. Why the second Saturn return and not the first? is is possible by the first?

I recognize that in the first case (relive), certain circumstances often arise in one's early environment/conditioning- this creates the necessity to re-live and resolve the dynamics implied by the Pluto sn conjunction for much of their adult life.

However in the second situation (fruition) What is the evolutionary cause for being blocked from accessing the nn later in life? Is it solely because they have chosen to offer something they are inherently good at to the world- and that the offering is somehow linked to their own evolution? In such a case, would it be common for their evolutionary state to be hidden even to them self?

Thank you.
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2010, 11:51 PM by ari moshe » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 18, 2010, 12:08 PM »

Hi Ari

The following is from the Pluto DVD course transcript.  I think it addresses all of your questions
Steve
-----------------------------

Pluto Conjunct South Node will mean one of three karmic evolutionary conditions, the first two of which will be extreme, the third one will be common.

1 - (extreme): a Soul who has utterly and completely avoided, denied the evolutionary intentions symbolized in the house and sign position of this conjunction. And because there has been a fundamental resistance to embracing those lessons, the Soul comes into this life karmically and evolutionarily determined to repeat those past life evolutionary intentions in this life. This can be very problematic on a psychological level. Why? T hey will sense the wistful promise of the North Node. And yet, based on karmic evolutionary determination, they are forced to remain within the conditions implied in the South Node - Pluto conjunction.

Most people, when they come into a life, more or less do fulfill or live out the past life dynamics, up until around the first Saturn return. It goes right back to the principle of security, self-consistency, etc.  Which is exactly why the first Saturn return, in terms of timing, is so problematic for most people. Why?  They have done nothing to prepare for the current life purpose. And then the Saturn return happens, and all of a sudden they become aware psychologically that they are feeling stuck within the definitions of the reality which have been defined from the past. Generally speaking, the first Saturn return correlates with the opportunity to be released from those past conditions and to begin the actualization of the current life intentions. But when Pluto is conjunct South Node in this first extreme condition, those past life conditions cannot be released until the second Saturn return, the majority of the life span.

There can be mitigating conditions that modify this situation, specifically a planet conjunct North Node, which of course implies an opposition to Pluto. When you see this situation, what you have is a Soul who is going to reflect the third one of these three karmic evolutionary conditions. In the third condition you have an element of past life dynamics being relived, and you also have what is called an element of karmic fruition. And when this is occurring, that releasing can occur at the first Saturn return. Why?

Because there is a planet on the North Node, meaning that Soul has already been trying to work, struggle free, break free - whatever that planet may be on the North Node. It shows you through that specific archetypal function and the house it is in, that they have been trying to break free, but it is not complete yet. So that is a combination of relive and also fruition. What fruition means, karmic evolutionary fruition (when this is operative), is that the intentions and motivations have been sufficiently pure, because Pluto correlates with intentions, motivations, agendas, where I am coming from, desires that fuel it. Fruition here means that, relative to the conditions symbolized in the Pluto-South Node house, there has been a degree of evolution that has been pure enough, that they have some special quality or condition to bring into the life. So there can be this element of reliving from a positive, and a not so great point of view.

2 - (extreme): This can be a situation of absolute karmic fruition and evolutionary fruition, meaning again that the motives and intentions fueled by desires have been sufficiently pure, that they bring in some special capacity or ability, a resource (Pluto) developed thoroughly from other lifetimes. And in this karmic evolutionary condition, the requirement is to disseminate or share that resource in some way with others. Now this also creates a high degree of frustration, even though it is a positive circumstantial condition in life. Why? Because the person has been doing it for so darned long. They want to do something else. And here again, unless you see a mitigating factor, the second Saturn return routine.

3 - (the most common): again having an element of reliving as well as of fruition. And unless you find a qualifying mitigating condition, i.e. a planet on North Node, here again, second Saturn return.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 19, 2010, 07:43 PM »

Thank you Steve.

Quote
2 - (extreme): This can be a situation of absolute karmic fruition and evolutionary fruition, meaning again that the motives and intentions fueled by desires have been sufficiently pure, that they bring in some special capacity or ability, a resource (Pluto) developed thoroughly from other lifetimes. And in this karmic evolutionary condition, the requirement is to disseminate or share that resource in some way with others. Now this also creates a high degree of frustration, even though it is a positive circumstantial condition in life. Why? Because the person has been doing it for so darned long. They want to do something else. And here again, unless you see a mitigating factor, the second Saturn return routine.

I have 3 remaining questions:
1. I don't understand the reason for such a set up in the first place. Is it because they have come into this world to fulfill a special purpose- sort of like an avatar- relative to that Pluto sn conjunction? Meaning they are blocked from their nn until the second Saturn return specifically because they have chosen to assist others in some way? This would seemingly imply that it's not about that particular soul...
If so, what metamorphosis can occur that enacts evolution for that soul before the second saturn return?

2. How is it possible for the desire nature of a natal Pluto by house and sign to express itself as relatively pure w/out awareness of it's polarity point?

3. Does this rule about the second saturn return apply for other planets on the sn?
I am so appreciative of this guidance, thank you.
Ari Moshe.
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Rad
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 20, 2010, 04:06 PM »

HI Ari,

 Steve is on a mini vacation right now so I will answer this ..............

Thank you Steve.

Quote
2 - (extreme): This can be a situation of absolute karmic fruition and evolutionary fruition, meaning again that the motives and intentions fueled by desires have been sufficiently pure, that they bring in some special capacity or ability, a resource (Pluto) developed thoroughly from other lifetimes. And in this karmic evolutionary condition, the requirement is to disseminate or share that resource in some way with others. Now this also creates a high degree of frustration, even though it is a positive circumstantial condition in life. Why? Because the person has been doing it for so darned long. They want to do something else. And here again, unless you see a mitigating factor, the second Saturn return routine.

I have 3 remaining questions:
1. I don't understand the reason for such a set up in the first place. Is it because they have come into this world to fulfill a special purpose- sort of like an avatar- relative to that Pluto sn conjunction?

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You will notice the word 'requirement' above. And that is what this is. And the reason for such a requirement will be different in each case. And, yes, Soul's with this signature, requirement, has some special capacity or resource to share with others that will have a metamorphic affect once shared .. whatever it may be.

*****************************************************************************

 Meaning they are blocked from their nn until the second Saturn return specifically because they have chosen to assist others in some way?

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Yes, it's a requirement .....

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This would seemingly imply that it's not about that particular soul...

************************************************************************

Why would it imply that ? It doesn't. It is exactly about that particular Soul ........ a requirement that the Soul has to fulfill .............

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If so, what metamorphosis can occur that enacts evolution for that soul before the second saturn return?

****************************************************************************

The metamorphosis occurs through fulfilling the requirement itself. Beyond that, there will of course be other area's in the individuals life that will be evolving and metamorphosing. Pluto will be making aspects to other planets for example. There will of course be a sign on the 8th House cusp, and the location of it's planetary ruler, that will be needing to be evolved. So too if there are planets in the natal 8th House and/or planets in Scorpio itself.

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2. How is it possible for the desire nature of a natal Pluto by house and sign to express itself as relatively pure w/out awareness of it's polarity point?

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There has been polarity points in other lives that have all lead to this karmic requirement of the Soul. This is why whatever the resource or capacity is that the Soul is required to give , to share, has reached this state of purity before the current life.

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3. Does this rule about the second saturn return apply for other planets on the sn?

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Yes, unless there are the mitigating factors ...................

***************************************************************************


  Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 28, 2010, 02:50 PM »

Hi Rad,
Thank you.

I have a further question. I'm going to use a chart example to exemplify this.
A friend of mine has the sn conj Pluto in Scorpio in the third house. Venus (ruler of nn) is in a balsamic conjunction to Uranus in Sag in the 4th.

She is currently working in the public school system- getting a degree in teaching. She has lots of knowledge and truly uses that knowledge to empower other people. Her capacity for mental focus and clarity is amazing. She wants to create something new that isn't confined to the public school system, yet doesn't know what to do. If she could devise a map that dictates each step she should take in her life, she would, and she'd feel very secure (Pluto sn in 3rd).

She seems to be mostly in a fruition type of situation. As long as I've known her, I've known her to do only good with her mind- she really helps a lot of people.

If she has work to do i nregards to her sn Pluto, how does this influence the ruler of the nn? She is clearly living a life of values that are not her own. This heavily manifests via her home/relationship life. She's in a relationship and lives with a man who is in a lower evolutionary state- and cannot recognize the unique spiritual values of my friend (who is first stage spiritual). She does not assert her own spirituality at all. This to me is the condition of her Venus Uranus balsamic- she needs to liberate. However, with Venus as the ruler of the nn and Pluto being on the sn- is she not able to release the karmic condition of the Venus Uranus balsamic conjunction until her second Saturn return?

Another simple way to ask this question is "what is the indication of the ruler of the nn when Pluto or any planet is conjunct the sn?"

Thank you so much.

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jana
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 28, 2010, 04:46 PM »

3. Does this rule about the second saturn return apply for other planets on the sn?

***************************************************************************

Yes, unless there are the mitigating factors ...................


  Rad
[/quote]

Hi Rad,

Could you give us an example of mitigating factors.

Peace,

Jana
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ari moshe
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 28, 2010, 09:09 PM »

Hi Jana,

From Steve's quote of JWG above:
Quote
There can be mitigating conditions that modify this situation, specifically a planet conjunct North Node, which of course implies an opposition to Pluto. When you see this situation, what you have is a Soul who is going to reflect the third one of these three karmic evolutionary conditions. In the third condition you have an element of past life dynamics being relived, and you also have what is called an element of karmic fruition. And when this is occurring, that releasing can occur at the first Saturn return./quote]

Though I also wonder if there are any OTHER mitigating factors.
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Rad
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 29, 2010, 11:15 AM »

Hi Ari and Jana,

 Ari: could you post the chart of the friend that you are asking about ?

 Ari and Jana: other mitigating factors correlate to any planet forming an aspect to the N.Node because that means that that N.Node has been initially accessed prior to the current life. An aspect to the N.Node of course means that there is also an aspect to the S.Node. Thus, the linkage between the N/S Nodes before the current life.

 Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 29, 2010, 01:27 PM »

Hi Rad,

Quote
other mitigating factors correlate to any planet forming an aspect to the N.Node because that means that that N.Node has been initially accessed prior to the current life. An aspect to the N.Node of course means that there is also an aspect to the S.Node. Thus, the linkage between the N/S Nodes before the current life.

That makes a lot of sense. Would an exception to this be when a planet is squaring the nodes, having last formed a conjunction to the south? I suspect this because in such a case there is a specific need to integrate that planet(s) FIRST through the sn.

Here's my friends chart.



She is first stage spiritual. A Christian Scientist. People of all ages call her for her to pray for her. She is a deeply compassionate and wise soul.

However it's really strange because her spiritual life is totally private- she doesn't share it with any of her friends (except myself and a few others who "get her"). Her partner is probably just entering third individuated. They don't share a spirituality together.

------------
The question for the purposes of this thread is what is the appropriate condition of her sn? And based on that, how can we appropriately understand the RULER of her nn?

Points of interest that relate to this question:
Moon Jupiter squaring nodes, last formed a conjunction to the sn.
NN ruler balsamic conjunction to Uranus. Uranus is ruler of Moon and Jupiter.
Mars in second conj Pluto sn. Mars balsamic to Pluto.

Thank you.
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Rad
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 30, 2010, 09:13 AM »

HI Ari,

 First, she does have the Moon and Jupiter squaring her Nodes, thus skipped steps. And because of those planets squaring both Nodes each have been activated prior to the current life. With the S.Node being the Node that last formed a conjunction to that Jupiter/ Moon this becomes the Node of integration. With Pluto conjunct it with the balsamic Mars in the 3rd this correlates to lifetimes of developing a storehouse of knowledge about the nature of life itself. This is a Soul who has been asking why about everything: why life, why death, what is the nature of life, the cause of life, and, within that, human psychology as well. Her Soul will come into the current life full of this knowledge, and has been full of this knowledge for many lifetimes.

 The Jupiter/Moon square to this S.Node/ Pluto/Mars all correlates with her Soul desire to help others in general, the desire to be of service to other Souls, and of course her innate capacity to teach, and the desire to teach. With that Moon/Jupiter also squaring the 9th House N.Node in Taurus, another signature of her natural desire to share and to teach which is of course reinforced by the ruler of it being in Sagittarius in the 4th, and conjunct Saturn, she has been teaching through the 'structures' of others systems: public schools for example. But in other lives those structures has also included school systems that were born out of various kinds of religious communities: Venus also conjunct her Uranus, the Moon/Jupiter being in Aquarius.

 What her Soul has desired to do, yet has not yet fulfilled, the skipped step, is to start her own school system in which she is not bound, or limited by, the structural systems of others. The structural systems of others also correlates to the nature of beliefs that define those systems. And thus another form of limitation she has felt frustrated and limited by in other lives, as in this one. This need to start her own school system is symbolized by that N.Node in Taurus in the 9th, and ruled by the Venus in Sagittarius with Saturn and Uranus in the 4th. The Venus is in a new phase conjunction to Saturn, yet balsamic to Uranus. So this means that she is meant to get the relevant teaching credentials within the context of the current society of birth, and then to use that credential as a vehicle to start her own unique school system.

 The key is to start such a system on a very small scale at first: N.Node in Taurus in the 9th. By starting it very small at first will require minimum  resources to do so. And then once the seed is planted, N.Node in Taurus, it will progressively blossom in time: Saturn. And as it blossoms the school will progressively expand BY IT'S OWN VOLITION. As this natural expansion occurs she will intuitively know how to guide that expansion. In the end, she has a very, very similar capacity, Saturn, and ability, God has made her a natural teacher, as Maria Montessori.

 So, yes, this is an example of the fruition condition with that Pluto/Mars on the S.Node. And it means to use the existing school systems of the society of birth to gain the relevant credentials that provide the social authorization to design an entirely new school system through which to teach. She also has the capacity to write and thus to expand the new system through others via the written material she could produce.

 She has had recent prior lives in 'different' kinds of spiritual/ religious communities whose beliefs and lifestyles were quite different than the consensus of the societies in which she was born. And, because of that, these communities were relatively persecuted by the consensus: one of the meanings of her Jupiter/Moon in Aquarius in the 6th, squaring the Nodes. For example, she was part of the Amish community in America in her last life. This is one of the reasons she is a very private about her own inner spiritual life.

 Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 30, 2010, 01:10 PM »

Wow, thank you for that response. That was very clear and helpful. This will also be a precious gift for her to read...

I would like to clarify a few points:

1. She does not have to wait until the second Saturn return (bc planets aspecting to the nodes)? However the south node needs to be utilized intensely in order for this soul to integrate the skipped steps and do the work that God has assigned to her. Is there a time frame for this, or just as long as it needs to be?

2. How is it you know she is in a fruition state? Is it bc I said so/ or your own intuition? Or is there something in the chart that tells you that?

3. Same question in regards to your statement about the Amish lifetime- I assume this is what you know based on your own intuition? Or is this connected to the work you do with Geodetic equivalents?

4. Is this statement accurate?:
With the Saturn Venus new phase, this soul is familiar with working "within the system" thus her ability to know what to do early on in life and go for a teaching degree. The Venus Uranus new phase however represents the challenge to make it her own, and separate from the consensus once she has established a inner feeling (Venus) of social acceptance and authority (Saturn).
Since the Moon Jupiter in Aquarius in the 6th is integrated through the sn, and that she is in a fruition state, to separate from the consensus and make it her own (focus on Venus Uranus conjunction- Uranus as ruler of skipped steps), she is meant to acquire knowledge and insight as to the nature and comprehension of life in as many ways as possible- to draw from a deep well of inner resources (Mars in Scorpio in second) through which she is capable of speaking writing and thinking very sharply, clearly and decisively (all sn Pluto Mars). Therefore, the first step for her would be to write a book expressing her ideas and understanding... (or something like that). Such an action would signify the resolution of the skipped steps. This would then allow for a slow and gradual development of her ideas to form into a tangible thesis (nn Taurus in the 9th).
In so doing, she is capable of gradually developing and teaching a new system based on her own spiritual values/ understanding of natural law. This in and of itself will naturally attract to her other souls who are meant to do similar work to herself (6th house) that share the same vision (Aquarius) and values (Venus Uranus). She will once again find herself in the context of a vibrant spiritual community and purpose that is shared with others who wish to help the world just as she does.

Thank you so much.
Ari Moshe
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Rad
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 30, 2010, 02:36 PM »

HI Ari,

Wow, thank you for that response. That was very clear and helpful. This will also be a precious gift for her to read...

I would like to clarify a few points:

1. She does not have to wait until the second Saturn return (bc planets aspecting to the nodes)? However the south node needs to be utilized intensely in order for this soul to integrate the skipped steps and do the work that God has assigned to her. Is there a time frame for this, or just as long as it needs to be?

***************************************************************************

Yes, there is no requirement to wait for the 2nd Saturn return because of the planets that square her Nodes. The South Node is the consistent integration point, yes. The time frame is utterly up to her: free choice/ decision making.

****************************************************************************

2. How is it you know she is in a fruition state? Is it bc I said so/ or your own intuition? Or is there something in the chart that tells you that?

***************************************************************************

I trusted your own observation Ari. The symbols in the chart can never tell us one way or the other. One must observe or be aware of the other's life first. The fruition issue for her is based on what you said, shared her: the nature of her work. However, there are many elements of reliving the prior life conditions that have not been resolved yet, and thus are not in a state of fruition. And that will start with her intimate relationships, and all the emotional / psychological issues that have created that.

*****************************************************************************

3. Same question in regards to your statement about the Amish lifetime- I assume this is what you know based on your own intuition? Or is this connected to the work you do with Geodetic equivalents?

*****************************************************************************

Yes, through geodetic equivalents her Moon/Jupiter line goes right through the Amish country. One the other hand to know such a specific thing does require other capacities.

*****************************************************************************

4. Is this statement accurate?:
With the Saturn Venus new phase, this soul is familiar with working "within the system" thus her ability to know what to do early on in life and go for a teaching degree. The Venus Uranus new phase however represents the challenge to make it her own, and separate from the consensus once she has established a inner feeling (Venus) of social acceptance and authority (Saturn).

****************************************************************************

Her Chiron is in the 10th in Gemini, trining her Moon/Jupiter and opposing the Sag planets. This is where one of her deep wounding occurred in other lives in that she did various things, including teaching, in which she had no 'credential' that 'authorized' her to do from a consensus/ society point of view. The wounding occurred because of the judgments that where then projected upon her because of that, i.e 'you are not qualified to do that', and then forced to stop doing what she was doing. So it's this wound in her that resides in her own past life memories, held within her own individuated unconscious, Uranus, that is the real determinant for securing the credential in this life. In this context we can no understand the new phase Saturn/Venus conjunction.

***************************************************************************

Since the Moon Jupiter in Aquarius in the 6th is integrated through the sn, and that she is in a fruition state, to separate from the consensus and make it her own (focus on Venus Uranus conjunction- Uranus as ruler of skipped steps), she is meant to acquire knowledge and insight as to the nature and comprehension of life in as many ways as possible- to draw from a deep well of inner resources (Mars in Scorpio in second) through which she is capable of speaking writing and thinking very sharply, clearly and decisively (all sn Pluto Mars). Therefore, the first step for her would be to write a book expressing her ideas and understanding... (or something like that). Such an action would signify the resolution of the skipped steps. This would then allow for a slow and gradual development of her ideas to form into a tangible thesis (nn Taurus in the 9th).

***************************************************************************

All this is true except the correct first step. The correct first step, after securing the relevant credentials, is to secure a job in a school to teach in order to make money: N.Node in Taurus, S.Node in Scorpio. Then using that money to start her own first school on a small scale basis. It will then progressively flower as mentioned before. Then, at some point, after this the relevant book(s) should be written.

****************************************************************************

In so doing, she is capable of gradually developing and teaching a new system based on her own spiritual values/ understanding of natural law. This in and of itself will naturally attract to her other souls who are meant to do similar work to herself (6th house) that share the same vision (Aquarius) and values (Venus Uranus). She will once again find herself in the context of a vibrant spiritual community and purpose that is shared with others who wish to help the world just as she does.

**************************************************************************

Yes although 'vision', the phenomena of, is a Sagittarius archetype.

**************************************************************************




Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 11, 2010, 08:00 PM »

Hi Rad,
I was reading this over and there's one thing I don't understand:

Quote
The correct first step, after securing the relevant credentials, is to secure a job in a school to teach in order to make money: N.Node in Taurus, S.Node in Scorpio. Then using that money to start her own first school on a small scale basis. It will then progressively flower as mentioned before. Then, at some point, after this the relevant book(s) should be written.

Would you mind explaining why securing a job in a school in order to make money is the way of integrating the skipped steps?

Is the answer that in this case we have to look at both nodes at the same time because Venus is the ruler of Taurus, which is conjunct Uranus- and Uranus is the ruler of the planets in Aquarius. Thus when integrating those planets, both the sn and the nn come immediately into play?
Thank you

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Rad
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 12, 2010, 10:32 AM »

Hi Ari,

Would you mind explaining why securing a job in a school in order to make money is the way of integrating the skipped steps?

Is the answer that in this case we have to look at both nodes at the same time because Venus is the ruler of Taurus, which is conjunct Uranus- and Uranus is the ruler of the planets in Aquarius. Thus when integrating those planets, both the sn and the nn come immediately into play?
Thank you

******************************************************************************

 The S.Node in Scorpio in the 3rd with Pluto correlates to needing to start a business, Scorpio, first. And that business would be her school: N.Node in the 9th. The Moon/Jupiter square to these Nodes means to make the practical steps, the correct sequence, for the skipped steps to be resolved. If she were just to write a book first it would just be another book. If she actually started her school that was structured around her ideas of education that became successful, which it would, then the book would would be perceived by others very differently because of the success of the school. Additionally, starting the school first obviously gives her a way to make a living doing what she is destined to do. Just writing a book without the school would not allow that to happen.


Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 20, 2010, 08:07 AM »

Hi Rad,

I realized that I don't think I've ever seen a chart in which some planet or asteroid wasn't forming some sort of aspect to the nodes. Is there ever a case in which a soul with planets on the sn is forced to wait until the second saturn return even though there is something aspecting both nodes? Otherwise, I don't see how this rule would ever apply to anyone.

Thank you.
Ari
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