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ari moshe
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« on: Mar 19, 2011, 08:22 PM »

Alright, get ready... and go!
Aries, Mars, 1st house corresponds to the path of personal self discovery that unfolds for each soul on a moment to moment and instinctual basis - this is an archetype of continual becoming.

Here are some topics to explore:

- The nature of "action and reaction".
- The natural inconjunct formed with Scorpio. And while we're at it, with Virgo as well.
- Within that "fear of entrapment"
- Mars as the lower octave of Pluto
- The nature of desire in general: how the desires of the soul translate through the impulses of Mars.

I'm going to try to stay on top of this thread as much as I can, though I may be away a couple or a few days at a time on occasion.
God speed (-; With Love,
Ari Moshe
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Elen
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 19, 2011, 09:41 PM »

Hi Ari,

Thanks for starting this thread.  And congratulations re: writing the forward to the new edition of Pluto I - I look forward to reading it!

I actually have a question about Aries - something that has just confounded me since the very first time I started learning about it from an EA perspective.  Aries is "the original anxiety of separation".  I just don't understand it!  On the one hand, it is Aries is the outward moving energy - so naturally moving out from the center (this would be separation, yes?).  On the other hand, what it naturally does --> anxiety.  So this is one level of my confusion about this.  Why is it that the very NATURE of Aries --> anxiety of separation?

On the next level: to me there seems to be an implicit judgement about "separating" desires with the original anxiety of separation statement.  I cannot tell if this is indeed true or if this is my own filters preventing me from hearing what is actually being said.  But if it is not my filters and what is indeed being said, then I'm not understanding.  It seems to me that creation is a part of the Divine - a natural and necessary part.  So if this is so, and if Aries is the impulse towards that - the separative impulse that initiates creation - then how is separation intrinsically anxiety producing?  Is this only so within the context of a distorted patriarchal society?  For example, if childbirthing practices were more in line with the actual needs of the new being being birthed, and so the necessary comfort and connection was established immediately that is required to anchor this new creation in the world, would there be an original anxiety of separation?  Or, rather, would that original anxiety come into play as it would be immediately recognized and addressed through appropriate cultural practices.  Does this make sense?  This statement about Aries has just had me twisted around since day 1!!

Finally, I don't think I fully understand the inconjunct from Scorpio to Aries --> original anxiety of separation.  Scorpio= separating and returning desires at the level of the Soul.  Aries=separating and returning desires (or is it only separating desires) at the subjective level.  This subjective level is the level at which we are able to discern the desires of the Soul.  So, while I understand that the inconjunct = crisis, I don't understand what exactly the crisis is here?  Again, Aries by nature moves out from the center.  But that is necessary for the ongoing sense of discovery that needs to occur.  So why does this carry with it crisis?  What IS that?

If you are confused, then you understand!  Because I am very confused about this!

Thanks to anyone who takes a stab at this!
Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 20, 2011, 03:09 PM »

I am just reading about the Aries archetype in "God Herself" (by Geraldine Thorsten) and while I don't know that I fully understand yet, I am thinking possibly that much of the answer to my questions in my previous post might have to do with the fear aspect of Aries.  In the book, Thorsten describes how women (the original "tamers" of fire), would use fire to keep predators away during childbirth.  Life certainly seemed to be quite precarious during those earlier days and perhaps this can explain the inconjunct "crisis" and the "original anxiety of separation".  I have been looking at it from my very privileged contemporary western experience.  It does seem, however, that the Libra polarity (and its trines to Aquarius and Gemini) suggests the way to work with and balance that anxiety - or at least is the logical energy to draw on to bring Aries back into balance....  So when that DOESN'T happen, Aries manifests in a completely imbalanced way...

Ellen
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ari moshe
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 20, 2011, 06:14 PM »

Hi Ellen, I'm going to re-read the Pluto Aries chapter and reflect on your questions, in the mean time I'm sure others will have something to add. Thanks for your questions. Also, perhaps you'd like to give a shot at answering some of your own questions as well?
am
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Elen
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 20, 2011, 07:27 PM »

Hi Ellen, I'm going to re-read the Pluto Aries chapter and reflect on your questions, in the mean time I'm sure others will have something to add. Thanks for your questions. Also, perhaps you'd like to give a shot at answering some of your own questions as well?
am

Hi Ari,

Thank you... I'm looking forward to any thoughts you might come up with!  You may have missed my last post.  I took a shot at answering my own question in that post - the answer involves an understanding of the impact that fear would have.......  I will continue to reflect on my questions and continue to seek out resources to help me answer them and offer whatever I come up with (if anything!).  Thanks for your encouragement...

Best wishes,
Ellen
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Linda
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 20, 2011, 10:47 PM »

Thanks Ari...for encouraging us to try to answer Ellen's questions, and for your suggested topics to explore.  I've been listening and watching the section on the Aries archetype on the School's DVD.


I actually have a question about Aries - something that has just confounded me since the very first time I started learning about it from an EA perspective.  Aries is "the original anxiety of separation".  I just don't understand it!  On the one hand, it is Aries is the outward moving energy - so naturally moving out from the center (this would be separation, yes?).  On the other hand, what it naturally does --> anxiety.  So this is one level of my confusion about this.  Why is it that the very NATURE of Aries --> anxiety of separation?


Great questions Ellen!  As we know, the archetypes don't exist in a vacuum.  If the Aries archetype did exist in a vacuum, imagine the anxiety that that would create!  Grin   Perhaps one of the lessons of the Aries archetype is to open up to the other archetypes - to connect (Libra) - so that the "anxiety" of separation is lessened.  Aries in relation to other archetypes could reveal some answers.  Regarding the "original anxiety of separation," separation from what?  

Separation from the Womb (Aries square Cancer).  Insecurity is triggered at the moment of birth when the baby leaves the familiarity and safety of the womb, to be born into a new life, in which it needs the comfort and nurturing of the mother through bodily warmth, re-connection, milk, etc.  If the baby were left alone to fend for itself, it would die:  hence, the anxiety of separation.  

Separation from Nature (Aries trine Sagittarius).  Separation from our natural relationship with Nature came about through 8,000 years of patriarchal distortion.  The distortion of the Aries archetype correlated to thousands of years of men fighting relentless wars based on the patriarchal model of tyranny, thus deforming human nature.  

Separation of the Sexes (Grand cross Aries - Libra - Cancer - Capricorn).  With men fighting relentless wars came the separation between the sexes.  Distortion resulted in dysfunctional, unequal (Libra) sadomasochistic relationships (Aries inconjunct Virgo), the subjugation of the feminine (Cancer), the suppression of the natural sexual function (Capricorn), consensus limits on freedom (Capricorn), and abuses such as rape (Mars opposite Pluto).

Separation from Freedom (Aries inconjunct Scorpio).  Aries needs absolute freedom, while Scorpio needs commitment.  This crisis, universal to all, creates a subconscious fear of entrapment that would limit the freedom to become.

Separation from Truth (Aries trine Sagittarius).  The psychology of perpetual violence had affected mainstream religion causing mass confusion and disillusionment.  Knowing right from wrong is natural.  (See Adina's latest in the Pluto/USA thread, where in the UK it will soon become illegal to run Soup Kitchens for the poor!)  Shocked

Separation from our Rights (Aries square Capricorn).  To bring about causal change in the archetypes.  Examples, men and women exercising their right to say "no" to horrors such as conscription to war, resisting a corrupt system, etc.  It takes courage to say no to what is wrong.

Separation from God (transcendence through Pisces).  God created Creation and Souls separate from God.  Similarly, Souls create an ego in each life and "co-create" just like God by making babies.  Souls separate themselves through Separating desires, and reconnect through Returning desires.  "Separation" is intrinsic to the act of creation since the creation is based on polarities.

All of these types of separation could be the cause of unresolved anger and rage within the Soul in past and present lives.  Aries is the fundamental right to freedom in the continual act of "becoming."  And each Soul has the freedom to choose what it is to "become," and what it desires to "create."  All desires correlate to Mars/Pluto:  Mars, the conscious awareness of the desire nature emanating from Pluto, the Soul.

I'm not sure where "judgment" of the Aries archetype originates from.  Another distortion?  Perhaps an examination of judgment as it correlates to Capricorn and its square to Aries may yield some results.  We have the Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and Uranus transiting Aries now....and I hope we'll be able to address all of your questions.
« Last Edit: Mar 21, 2011, 01:35 AM by Linda » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 21, 2011, 05:52 AM »

Hi Ari, Ellen and Linda,

Good start to the Aries thread !

Some more thoughts on these topics ...

The innocence of Pisces carries over to Aries, but all it's universal aspects have been stripped away to leave just a core innocence of self. Aries is the sign that is the most aware of itself, and this awareness is very concentrated. The increased awareness of itself means it is largely unaware of much else other than itself. This might normally be pretty depressing, except Aries core innocence protects it from that, and instead it is happy to be what it is, as any innocent self is naturally happy within itself - it's built in.

However, while Aries is happy to be, the increased awareness of itself does produce an equally acute awareness of "all that isn't Aries". It's not that Aries is much concerned about "all that isn't Aries" - no, its naturally centered in itself and simply happy in being that way. But Aries has an active and keen intelligence, and being aware that there is an awfully big amount of "all that isn't Aries" it feels at a subconscious level something not being quite right with everything ("everything" - the deep soul memory carried over from Picses of Oneness).

It's simple happiness at being able to just be itself is disturbed (usually at a subconscious level) by the contrast presented in the way it intuitively perceives it's life situation - as that of being just a "dot" (self) within the universe ("all that isn't Aries"). The Aries situation is ... being naturally happy due to it's inherently totally simple and uncluttered nature, yet never being able to relax into that happiness because it's obviously incomplete. And Aries immediately senses that that doesn't "add up". And the "pain" of separation arises then and there immediately and directly from this intuitive knowing, and this becomes the underlying shadow of Aries - it's subconscious insecurity and lack of confidence, self doubt, in total - a deep hidden anxiety.

And Aries increased sense of itself makes sure this anxiety is carried wherever Aries goes. This leads Aries into it's search, the driving need to explore and discover more and more of and about itself, with all the attendant needs of absolute freedom, self focus, no limitations or interference from others whatsoever, and absolutely no demands from anyone else - to maximise it's chances of succeeding in it's quest.

Does this make sense?

blessings Upasika


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Elen
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 21, 2011, 07:54 AM »

Hi Linda,  (I had addressed this to Upasika but it was Linda's post that got me thinking.... So sorry, Linda.... I have so much going on right now I'm not focusing in as closely as I need to...!)

Thanks so much for your responses to my questions.......

Aries-Freedom/Independence:  This one might actually solve the dilemma for me.  Part of my struggle to understand the "original anxiety of separation" is that it seemed to me to be only in relation to patriarchy and so I was trying to understand if such an anxiety would intrinsically exist in a more accommodating environment.  Now I think I'm getting it.  Intrinsic to Aries is the need for freedom/independence, as you point out.  And, as you also point out, there is the need for relationship (Libra polarity) and also comfort and nurturing (Cancer square).  So, as I am understanding it now, the "original anxiety of separation" is this crisis and conflict between the need to be independent and the need to be connected.  Both are true.  I had been interpreting the "original anxiety of separation" as almost a negation of the need for independence - in other words, the Aries need for independence as a kind of willful reaction to the reality of separation that comes at birth - so the independence not as something really wanted, but something forced upon it - so fundamentally coming from a place of weakness than a place of strength (and so a "negative" statement about creation itself).  Now I see it more as a struggle between 2 equally genuine needs..  There is both the reality of creation (separation) and the reality of connection (union).  Perhaps the solution is in discovering the reality that the divine is within - thus there is no separation in creation...?   Not sure that this is RIGHT.  But I feel that I can make more sense of it now....

Will read through the rest of your post later today....  Thank you!!

Best,
Ellen
« Last Edit: Mar 21, 2011, 10:18 AM by Ellen » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 21, 2011, 10:23 AM »

Hi Linda and Upasika,

Should be able to take these in more thoroughly later today or tomorrow, then be able to respond more fully.  Thank you (!) for your thoughts on this!

Best wishes,
Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 21, 2011, 10:26 AM »


However, while Aries is happy to be, the increased awareness of itself does produce an equally acute awareness of "all that isn't Aries". It's not that Aries is much concerned about "all that isn't Aries" - no, its naturally centered in itself and simply happy in being that way. But Aries has an active and keen intelligence, and being aware that there is an awfully big amount of "all that isn't Aries" it feels at a subconscious level something not being quite right with everything ("everything" - the deep soul memory carried over from Picses of Oneness).

It's simple happiness at being able to just be itself is disturbed (usually at a subconscious level) by the contrast presented in the way it intuitively perceives it's life situation - as that of being just a "dot" (self) within the universe ("all that isn't Aries"). The Aries situation is ... being naturally happy due to it's inherently totally simple and uncluttered nature, yet never being able to relax into that happiness because it's obviously incomplete. And Aries immediately senses that that doesn't "add up". And the "pain" of separation arises then and there immediately and directly from this intuitive knowing, and this becomes the underlying shadow of Aries - it's subconscious insecurity and lack of confidence, self doubt, in total - a deep hidden anxiety.

And Aries increased sense of itself makes sure this anxiety is carried wherever Aries goes. This leads Aries into it's search, the driving need to explore and discover more and more of and about itself, with all the attendant needs of absolute freedom, self focus, no limitations or interference from others whatsoever, and absolutely no demands from anyone else - to maximise it's chances of succeeding in it's quest.

Does this make sense?

blessings Upasika




Hi Upasika,

On a first quick read through it makes sense.  I want to read through it again and let it settle in.  I'm feeling that you have really hit upon something...

Best,
Ellen
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ari moshe
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 21, 2011, 10:33 AM »

Thanks Ellen,  I did miss your post about childbirth.

You bring up a great point about separation anxiety as it relates to the patriarchy. To me, there is an inherent connection. Aries does require absolute freedom and autonomy in the same way that a 2 year old needs to have the freedom to be a two year old. However does a 2 year old, by its nature necessarily experience the anxiety of separation? Today, for the most part yes, however innately, the answer is no.

If mother is always experienced to be there, if there is never a sense of leaving the wholeness, if the entire individuation occurs within the context of the wholeness, then there is no anxiety. Aries then expresses as a focused and directed will who knows that separation is not possible. Like a 2 year old who always understands that mommy is right around the corner.

Ellen, you asked about Mars, if it also corresponds to separating and returning like Pluto. As I understand it, on one level Mars is just the fuel. Through Aries there is the imperative, the mission to be in CONSTANT motion. To where is this motion leading the soul? That's where the impulses is Aries can serve EITHER the separating desires of the soul or the desire to return. Ultimately, within the context of patriarchy, the crisis symbolized by the Scorpio Aries inconjunct symbolizes perpetual, insatiable desire - this generating various crisis as karma is created through these desires. Karma creates limitations (square Capricorn) on Aries' absolute freedom. All of this is constructed as a way for the soul to align it's own independence and freedom with the actual path of return to Source. And so the way it is today, the crisis of separation anxiety can ultimately serve as a catalyst to propel evolution.
am



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Elen
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 21, 2011, 12:23 PM »

Hi Linda,

Thanks so much for your post.  It is very helpful to see it addressed within the context of the other signs.  It is interesting to me because there seems to be 2 distinct kinds of separation anxieties based on what you've written: natural and manmade.  Natural:

separation from the womb
separation from God
separation from freedom

The rest seem to be the result of the effects of patriarchy:

separation from nature
separation of the sexes
separation from truth
separation from our rights

To me, you make a really good point about these latter being cause for anger in the Aries archetype.  And this anger being karmically carried over to new lives.

What I keep coming back to as I read through yours and others' responses is the question of the significance of culture/environment re: the degree to which this natural response is expressed in Aries (given that, as observers, we are aware of it primarily by the actions we see that indicate anxiety of separation as an underlying factor).  Even with the "natural" forms of separation anxiety, it seems to me that these can be easily alleviated by appropriate and attentive cultural practices that bring the newborn and growing child into alignment with connection and caring and at the same time honor her/his need for independence and discovery.  I have Aries (Jupiter in Aries) square the nodes (SN skipped steps) and Mars conjunct SN.  I have spent the majority of my life feeling quite angry and alienated and adrift.  I have been working with an extremely skillful healer over the last few months and very recently I have actually experienced the sense of "secure attachment" - something I have NEVER even remotely felt/experienced in this lifetime.  It has been very grounding for me and I have been feeling myself more and more aware of "who I am" and that within the context of feeling connected to Spirit.  All hard to explain but it has been informing my thoughts re: Aries so I wanted to try to articulate it.  Even with the "natural" anxieties, I am thinking, given my recent experiences, that even these can be attributed to the patriarchy in the sense that there exists a fundamental lack in terms of cultural practices.  Not 100% sure about this.  Upasika has brought up an interesting perspective that I am wanting and needing to consider, though I am wondering if "wonder" might not be a way to explain the discrepancy that he is noticing and that that sense of wonder is part of what propels Aries forward...

Still thinking about it all..  Curious about any feedback you might have...

Best wishes,
Ellen
Thanks Ari...for encouraging us to try to answer Ellen's questions, and for your suggested topics to explore.  I've been listening and watching the section on the Aries archetype on the School's DVD.


I actually have a question about Aries - something that has just confounded me since the very first time I started learning about it from an EA perspective.  Aries is "the original anxiety of separation".  I just don't understand it!  On the one hand, it is Aries is the outward moving energy - so naturally moving out from the center (this would be separation, yes?).  On the other hand, what it naturally does --> anxiety.  So this is one level of my confusion about this.  Why is it that the very NATURE of Aries --> anxiety of separation?


Great questions Ellen!  As we know, the archetypes don't exist in a vacuum.  If the Aries archetype did exist in a vacuum, imagine the anxiety that that would create!  Grin   Perhaps one of the lessons of the Aries archetype is to open up to the other archetypes - to connect (Libra) - so that the "anxiety" of separation is lessened.  Aries in relation to other archetypes could reveal some answers.  Regarding the "original anxiety of separation," separation from what?  

Separation from the Womb (Aries square Cancer).  Insecurity is triggered at the moment of birth when the baby leaves the familiarity and safety of the womb, to be born into a new life, in which it needs the comfort and nurturing of the mother through bodily warmth, re-connection, milk, etc.  If the baby were left alone to fend for itself, it would die:  hence, the anxiety of separation.  

Separation from Nature (Aries trine Sagittarius).  Separation from our natural relationship with Nature came about through 8,000 years of patriarchal distortion.  The distortion of the Aries archetype correlated to thousands of years of men fighting relentless wars based on the patriarchal model of tyranny, thus deforming human nature.  

Separation of the Sexes (Grand cross Aries - Libra - Cancer - Capricorn).  With men fighting relentless wars came the separation between the sexes.  Distortion resulted in dysfunctional, unequal (Libra) sadomasochistic relationships (Aries inconjunct Virgo), the subjugation of the feminine (Cancer), the suppression of the natural sexual function (Capricorn), consensus limits on freedom (Capricorn), and abuses such as rape (Mars opposite Pluto).

Separation from Freedom (Aries inconjunct Scorpio).  Aries needs absolute freedom, while Scorpio needs commitment.  This crisis, universal to all, creates a subconscious fear of entrapment that would limit the freedom to become.

Separation from Truth (Aries trine Sagittarius).  The psychology of perpetual violence had affected mainstream religion causing mass confusion and disillusionment.  Knowing right from wrong is natural.  (See Adina's latest in the Pluto/USA thread, where in the UK it will soon become illegal to run Soup Kitchens for the poor!)  Shocked

Separation from our Rights (Aries square Capricorn).  To bring about causal change in the archetypes.  Examples, men and women exercising their right to say "no" to horrors such as conscription to war, resisting a corrupt system, etc.  It takes courage to say no to what is wrong.

Separation from God (transcendence through Pisces).  God created Creation and Souls separate from God.  Similarly, Souls create an ego in each life and "co-create" just like God by making babies.  Souls separate themselves through Separating desires, and reconnect through Returning desires.  "Separation" is intrinsic to the act of creation since the creation is based on polarities.

All of these types of separation could be the cause of unresolved anger and rage within the Soul in past and present lives.  Aries is the fundamental right to freedom in the continual act of "becoming."  And each Soul has the freedom to choose what it is to "become," and what it desires to "create."  All desires correlate to Mars/Pluto:  Mars, the conscious awareness of the desire nature emanating from Pluto, the Soul.

I'm not sure where "judgment" of the Aries archetype originates from.  Another distortion?  Perhaps an examination of judgment as it correlates to Capricorn and its square to Aries may yield some results.  We have the Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and Uranus transiting Aries now....and I hope we'll be able to address all of your questions.

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Elen
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 21, 2011, 12:25 PM »

Hi Upasika,

I posted one thought I had about what you had written at the end of my last post to Linda.  Still mulling over all of it though.......

Best wishes,
Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #13 on: Mar 21, 2011, 12:34 PM »

One more thought I had about all this: thinking about those early women creating fire circles to ensure safety during childbirth, this would be a very natural and normal and necessary anxiety that would set things up for the Taurus emphasis on survival, then the Gemini emphasis on information collecting, etc.  So there would seem to be levels at which this would play out: the very basic level in which survival needs are the primary influence.  But then as more experience is had and more knowledge is gained, etc, these basic survival needs are taken care of so that the whole experience of childbirth and childrearing can take place on an entirely different level.  Thus the original anxiety itself ultimately leads to the establishment of practices and customs and relationships and childbearing/raising practices that sensitively respond to this understandable original anxiety.  And thus Aries is ultimately freed from this original anxiety, freed to proceed in wonder..........?

Upasika,

I am wondering if for you that sense of being a small dot might be true within the context of a new and frightening world (those 1st women forming fire circles), but that perhaps it might be experienced differently (wonder instead of anxiety) as, culturally and individually speaking, a greater sense of safety was secured....?
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Elen
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 21, 2011, 12:41 PM »

Thanks Ellen,  I did miss your post about childbirth.

You bring up a great point about separation anxiety as it relates to the patriarchy. To me, there is an inherent connection. Aries does require absolute freedom and autonomy in the same way that a 2 year old needs to have the freedom to be a two year old. However does a 2 year old, by its nature necessarily experience the anxiety of separation? Today, for the most part yes, however innately, the answer is no.

This is a really good point, Ari.  It seems to me that the natural expression of a 2 year old is more of exhilaration and daring/curiosity than it is of anxiety/fear.....Perhaps the anxiety can be explained as the result of unskillful response to this basic and natural drive....?

If mother is always experienced to be there, if there is never a sense of leaving the wholeness, if the entire individuation occurs within the context of the wholeness, then there is no anxiety. Aries then expresses as a focused and directed will who knows that separation is not possible. Like a 2 year old who always understands that mommy is right around the corner.
This makes sense to me...


Ellen, you asked about Mars, if it also corresponds to separating and returning like Pluto. As I understand it, on one level Mars is just the fuel. Through Aries there is the imperative, the mission to be in CONSTANT motion. To where is this motion leading the soul? That's where the impulses is Aries can serve EITHER the separating desires of the soul or the desire to return. Ultimately, within the context of patriarchy, the crisis symbolized by the Scorpio Aries inconjunct symbolizes perpetual, insatiable desire - this generating various crisis as karma is created through these desires. Karma creates limitations (square Capricorn) on Aries' absolute freedom. All of this is constructed as a way for the soul to align it's own independence and freedom with the actual path of return to Source. And so the way it is today, the crisis of separation anxiety can ultimately serve as a catalyst to propel evolution.
am

I am pondering this last part........ Curious about the difference between insatiable desire (unbalanced Aries) vs. a kind of perpetual state of wonderment that seems to propel one on to each new and exciting experience/endeavor.........

Best wishes,
Ellen



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