School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: ari moshe on Jan 07, 2010, 02:31 PM



Title: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 07, 2010, 02:31 PM
Is there at all anyway to get Lucifer on solar fire?

I'm being given ample opportunities (both in my personal life, and via astrology) to learn all about it...

My friend came to me with a story. She and her partner was camping in mount shasta- they almost got killed by a dark force that tends to attack people at mount shasta. This experience for her was a big awakening as she finally "got" it that there are souls whose m.o truly is evil.

Here's her chart. She is an intuitive, healer- community organizer, author- on the cusp of second stage spiritual I'd say.

I drew in her natal lucifer at 5 degrees libra.

24 leo- sn of lucifer
14 aqu- nn of lucifer

(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/friendwithnodes.jpg)


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 07, 2010, 03:02 PM
On the night at Shasta, Mercury was transiting in between her Pluto Lucifer conjunction.

So I'm going to look at her Lucifer, as well as the nodes of Lucifer to get the story.
This is what I wrote to her about Lucifer on her chart. I'm adding in parenthesis for all of us the ea reasoning.

"i was thinking about you being born with lucifer on pluto. it has such strong meaning. being born with that signature defines the quality of consciousness that has been established previous to this life. we can say that your soul's desire (Pluto) has been to transmute what manifests as darkness, when it is feared, into light and literally be an example of that metamorphosis (conjunct lucifer in the 5th). So literally, in the past you have been seeking to show others (5th libra) that darkness can turn into light. In order to learn that lesson, in recent lifetimes in particular you have "taken" on darkness just so you can prove to yourself that you are in fact a tras-muter of darkness into light (all in the 5th). However... In so doing of course, you were also blind to your own limitations and you become susceptible to the darkness via an elated ego (5th house) that thought very highly of your apparent impenetrability. As a result you were PUSHED way way down and people stopped seeing your light (Libra in the 5th). That was an evolutionary catalyst for you to ultimately go deeper into the light that comes from SOURCE and source alone. So that shasta experience was such a blessed way to learn."

Also, all this happening in libra, and sextile the Neptune in the 7th, which itself is opposing Saturn and trine the south node- shows that she has taken on a lot of responsibility to work with other people's darkness. While she has been a powerful healer in the past, it also shows that she has attracted parasitic energy through her partners/other people in general who she wanted to see the best in and was in fact naive about evil (neptune saturn-moon, neptune in the 7th, all that in relation to pluto lucifer- and the south node being super social and needing to be liked by others). This also relates to past lives in being repeatedly broken by other people not beleiving in her/persecuting her for her light. All this in order for her to become truly detached from validation from others, and do her soul's work of shining.

THE NODES OF LUCIFER

The north node of lucifer is conjunct her lunar north node- implying the familiarity with having working with this stuff in the past and the imperative to continue to work with darkness and being a bearer of light. that Lucifer nn in the 10th is squared by her natal palas athene in taurus in the 12th. So there was have persecution relative to her nature as a woman (taurus in the 12th) and her power deemed wrong by her society (10th house). Her past life memory is of a woman who was a catholic religious leader and author. this soul channeled a lot, and opened up many nuneries- however she was super repressive of emotions and human needs. It's as if she was bringing light into the world by suppressing her human nature- this would have been a result of lifetimes before that in which she was persecuted for her sexuality, her feminine nature. Is this true?

How would we understand Neptune in the 7th squaring the south node of Lucifer?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 07, 2010, 06:12 PM
Hi Ari,

Just a short note if you don't mind me jumping in:
first where did you get the correlation that taurus is one's feminine nature? That's not the case...taurus n short is one's inner relationship to oneSELF...amongst many other things it also correlates to one's essential needs BASED on the underlying MEANING that one gives to life...life in a BODY manifesting in a form...so that's about survival as well.....all this is based on an inner VALUE SYSTEM..... upon which one is basing everything in their life relative to this inner relationship to oneself...taurus is the inner side of venus.....so you also need to look at venus iteself to understand what the chart is telling about the INNER and the OUTER relationships.....what you will find relative to venus will be two sided, inner and outer.....so the inner impact is taurus....the outer is libra.....
But even that is not enough you need to see further, study the 2nd and the 7th house with all correlations.....all those symbols will come back to a valuesystem.....how one feels invardly depends on WHAT THEY VALUE....and how they do it (or have done it in the past)....
....
All this need to be carefully taken into consideration before we can have any feeling as what a 12th hosue taurus may mean....for it can be extremely different in essence based on the above....

What is for sure is just that in some ways for some reasons hidden in the chart whatever the valuesystem and the identified needs based on that valuesystem have been in the past the soul is now in the process of CULMINATING IT.......what exactly culminating, how and why etc. can be understood only via understanding the whole chart.....

...and one more thing: whatever is on or within the 12th house there is a need to shed light on at least SOME degree of illusions:-) ...illusion that seemd real for a long time ....

What that illusion may be again can NOT be said unless the whole chart is understood properly via the EA method....

Neptune has a lot to do with the very nature of one's particular WAYS of forming illusions....and remember lucifer always but always attacks our weakest point....so when we have an illusion guess what? It becomes pretty much our weak point......this is how evil can actually exploit even on's most dearly held ideals....and it sure does if we aren't careful and believe in illusions while we think we chase some sort of ideal........that's why so many many times evil is hiding behind 'god'....it says or it may evn appear as it i some sacred thing.....and people with illusions would buy into it....just look around the world...what happened with most so called religions...???

And one more thing: lucifer itself is never the bearer of light IN ITSELF.....IN ORDER TO GET THERE ONE NEEDS TO EMBRACE THE POLARITY of lucifer....just as with all othr symbols.....


Anyways, I have to go now, but thought I mention these tings so that you may rethink the whole issue again....hope that's okay??

Blessings,
Lia



Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 07, 2010, 07:22 PM
This is how we can learn from each other. I'm grateful for your post, lia- your just contributing in the way that is natural for you. You may stop apologizing!  :o

I'd be very interested in hearing your and anyone's interpretation of this chart in specific to everything lucifer. Then I can actually see how others see it and recognize where I may be missing something.

I understand what your saying about Taurus- to me that is what femininity is all about. In this case, I can see the illusions (12th house) have been based on a guilt that it was wrong for her to enjoy sensuality, and pleasure for her own self. I would still assess from this chart that this can be linked to previous lifetimes in which she was persecuted for how she related to her own values. I use femininity here as a way to describe the sensual survival nature of Taurus- simply enjoying her body and experiencing the love of it- from the point of view of being connected to her natural resources, and the ability to receive what is. Relative to Pluto and the nodes- there were past lives in which she was a preistess of sorts, leading orgies or things like that (5th house pluto sextile neptune in 7th, south node in leo in the 3rd with sun in Aquarius- and also, the ruler of the nn of Lucifer which is conj the lunar north node in Leo in the 5th, opposing mars- both of which are semi/sesqui square the nodes for having "overdone" it in the past). Activities that were blissful, but also naive in which she shared herself too openly with others, and irresponsible at times (venus in pisces, neptune in 7th opposing saturn) resulting in an attraction of souls that had negative intentions and being persecuted by social figures. Is this false?? If so, why?

The Pallas athene here seems to imply a pattern of self sacrifice (12th) that has developed as it relates to what makes her life worth living (taurus)- such that she developed an idealized concept of purity, and felt personal pleasure (Taurus) to be sinful. What she built (nn of lucifer in 10th) was alternative structures (aquarius in the 10th) that allowed for quiet and meditation (taurus in the 12th). The skipped step here i believe is in having believed that the body, or personal riches leads to sin- while at some point she was on the opposite end, over doing pleasure in a way that wasn't responsible or ethical.

The Polarity of Lucifer, which comes into natural expression through developing the north node of Lucifer and all the other ea developments of the natal chart- is found in Aries in the 11th house- right there with Chiron. The very fact that natal Lucifer is opposing Chiron in the 11th relates to a deep sense of woundedness as it comes to expressing herself in the world in such a way as to make meaningful social change. bearing the light in this case implies cultivating a true sense of detachment in which she truly doens't care what other people think of her. This comes up so many times in her chart. She may always feel a vulnerability when it comes to her own evolved way of thinking that isn't always valued or shared by those around her. She is able to illuminate (lucifer) the holes in our way of living by herself being an example of CLEAR THINKING (11th house, with mars the ruler in aries in the 11th semi square the north node in Aquarius in the 9th).

Quote
Neptune has a lot to do with the very nature of one's particular WAYS of forming illusions....and remember lucifer always but always attacks our weakest point....so when we have an illusion guess what? It becomes pretty much our weak point......this is how evil can actually exploit even on's most dearly held ideals....and it sure does if we aren't careful and believe in illusions while we think we chase some sort of ideal........that's why so many many times evil is hiding behind 'god'....it says or it may evn appear as it i some sacred thing

That's beautiful. So that really helps understand the nature of the Pallas in Taurus in the 12th squaring Lucifer nn in Aquarius in the 10th. To me, that relates to an idealized concept of purity around the resources she was given by creator- thinking that they can be shared openly to benefit all people- that attracted trauma (aquarius) from authority figures (10th house) that sought to take from her what was really her own (taurus in the 12th). To me, that then lead to the pattern perhaps described by her life as an influential catholic nun who set up many stoic monastaries and abstained from personal pleasure. She channeled inspired books (pallas athene) while living mostly in seclusion, in poverty and chastity (taurus int he 12th- and abstaining from sex of course, venus in Pisces). She was a reformer in the catholic church as it related to ideas around complete surrender to God as to not need anything on a physical level. However I believe a lot of that was self punishment.

This lifetime, with the sun on the north node, but ruling leo in the 3rd- it's about creating her own alternative path, but one that takes her deeper into the world of duality. So being able to surrender to God and use all the material resources given to her for her work, and simultaneously be a part of the world. Uranus, the ruler of her north node in Aquarius in the 5th implies the need to be detached from any ideas of what she is supposed to look like/how she is supposed to behave. simply being who she is, free from ideas of who she is supposed to be is a healing for her soul. Also, the ruler of the pallas, venus in pisces in the 10th conj Vesta= a part of that implies ultimatley finding a partner who is also seeking purity in thier own actions so that they can truly be of service, and has also gone through a lot of confusion as it relates to giving and receiving, and guilt around creating boundaries etc...




Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lesley on Jan 08, 2010, 07:05 AM
Hi Ari, Lia and all,

It is so true about embracing the polarity of Lucifer (or any planet) to evolve that planet or asteroid...but then, do we not come back to the original placement of Lucifer (or any planet) to complete the work? Wolf used to say, "The solution is in the symbol itself."

To my way of thinking, Maurice Fernandez had such a great way of explaining this. He used the Virgo/Pisces polarity in an example (but I paraphrase him here): "For Virgo to evolve, we have to embrace the Pisces polarity. But the Virgo placement is never left behind; we return to Virgo with our Pisces lessons and live Virgo in a whole new way."

That is the way I approach finding "the bearer of light" within Lucifer in my own chart. :)

Love and blessings to all,
Lesley


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 08, 2010, 01:11 PM
Thanks Lesley-
would you be down to show us an example of that? maybe of your own chart?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Gonzalo on Jan 08, 2010, 01:35 PM
Hi Ari, Lia, Lesley and all ….

Just a few questions and comments, hoping it’s ok if I jump in …

This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??

…  Neptune in the 7th Sag would correlate to illusions/delusions about not only people in general being fair or good but also to the inherent and general goodness of manifested Creation  … wouldn’t the opposition of the Moon in the 1st Gemini correlate to experiences of disillusionment which have caused her to doubt of her instinctual/emotional response to experience, and (given the Moon’s rulership of the 3rd house Cáncer) this doubts permeating how she generally interprets phenomenal reality ? … this would suggests that she knows (SN ruler being in the 9th conjunct NN), but, though she knows, she still doubts, and somehow, perhaps at a mental level keeps thinking things may be one way or the other … thus needing to recreate experiences leading to establish what is actually real for her … and of course, to take emotion into the picture, ie. integrating her emotional response as necessary information in the process of establishing phenomenal reality … to think with her emotional body instead of suppressing emotion …. for instance, if she happens to feel fear, not to get scared but to think that her body is telling her that here may be something dangerous of what she needs to be aware …. also, to take note of what she doubts of instead of thinking that it doesn’t matter whether it is one way or the other, in order to elaborate what the emotional reasons for the doubts are … 

… It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap) …. given that  Pluto rules the 7th where Neptune lies, and the sextile between Pluto and Neptune, keeping in mind that Pluto/Mars  are in full phase with Mars ruling her 12th … wouldn’t she feel easily drawn to compulsively keep on asserting herself in self-deluding relationships , as an unconscious means to create necessary confrontations with reality?? … given that the SN is in the 3rd the ruler being the Sun in the 9th and with Jupiter in the 8th Sag, she would be very emotionally invested in her beliefs … though, the inconjunct between Saturn/Jupiter suggests that she would  need to create experiences leading to crisis in order to reevaluate how she is interpreting reality about herself, others and life in general … in order to readjust these beliefs …  she would have been reluctant to do this because she has preferred to suppress or ignore her own doubts and just trust her strength to face whatever comes up and/or to change situations and people, as compensation of feelings of not being loved (Pluto 5th Libra, Venus  10th Pisces, Chiron in Aries opposing Pluto, Saturn Rx 1st …), this creating a superwoman type complex ??

… with Pluto in the 5th, it is clear that the Lucifer conjunction refers at this level the need to stop depending on others to confirm her specialness …. the NN ruler Uranus going back to the 5th indicating the intention to free herself of the need to be loved and reckoned by so many others, or the need to be so special to deserve being loved  … thus, accepting to be loved and acknowledged by the right people as an equal … this would in turn allow the conscious confirmation to be made that there are things good and things not so good, things she can bear and things she must avoid, instead of taking over herself the darkness of others as a means to be loved, though losing sight  of her own light in the way … then, would the Neptune square to SN of Lucifer in the 4rd Leo correlate to how her emotional dependence on ego recognition (4th Leo) have prepared the ground for her delusions/illusions about others, about her need to heal others, potential disillusionments as to who she can and she cannot help, and further, about beliefs and interpretation of reality at a metaphysical level?

Thank you for the chance to participate in this thread, wishing to read your upcoming posts and answers on the subject.

Many Blessings,

Gonzalo.


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 08, 2010, 03:13 PM
Hi Lesley,


Of course embracing the polarity of anything will result in a new way of living and experiencing the particular symbol that is symbolised with any planet.....however saying that it is at one point enough and then we need to turn back and 'going back' to where we started is a misunderstanding in short....

First of all because coming back is possible only if we left from somewhere....do you think any of our planets will ever move an inch in our chart? I don't think so....what I think is happening is just that within that very symbol there is an inward evolution happens EVERY MOMENT throughout our lives....

So there is no coming back to where we never left.....but there is a continuous NEW WAY of living the very same symbol be that virgo or whatever as our life evolves and especially if we make a conscious effort to progress.....the direction of this progress of this broadening of our consciousness in particular ways (as our chart symbols will highlight where exactly what and why needs to be evolved/progressed) and that in a very short way always but always includes the CONTINUOUS EMBRACING OF THE POLARITY of the whatever symbol....

This never ends it will be the same essentially as long as we live.....so how exactly it is possible then to 'come back' to the original symbol when that symbol is absolutely and entirely with us for a whole life time?   
Of course there is and should be a new way of experiencing the very symbol (every symbol in our chart) if we make the effort (or when life forces us and we have no choice but to change and evolve)....no evolutionary force will ever point 'backward'....life is not a one lesson journey ...I've done it once in some ways in some respect so now I am ready, I am done I can sit back for I now experiencing a whole new way of the whatever symbol....

While what you said at the first sight looks as there is some meaning, in reality the actual meaning is that evolution isn't necessary the polarity point isn't something that should be worked towards during our whole life...rather lets allow the inner forces that keeps us stuck somewhere and let justify it with some 'logic'.....
That's what it actually saying and it is saying it in a way that it sounds like something else than what it actually is.....

Think about it for yourself....
When a soul makes an evolutionary leap yeah, ABSOLUTELY the symbols in the natal chart or at least some or one of them will be experienced and lived in a TOTALLY NEW WAY....yeap a whole new way of virgo will emerge via embracing the polarity of pisces...but does that mean we are 'done'? Looking at it in that new way doesn't apply a new way of embracing the polarity ever further? Now relative to the newly reached level, so from there embracing the polarity will be done in a WHOLE NEW WAY. Why?  because the previous meaning, understanding, perception of what virgo means has been left behind...THEREFORE the polarity automatically will also have a WHOLE NEW MEANING....SO THAT ACCORDING TO THIS WHOLE NEW MEANING CONSCIOUSNESS CAN PROCEED TO EMBRACE THAT NEWLY DEFINED POLARITY LESSON.

Is that not so? Think about it for yourself...what virgo meant for you and hat it means now has evolved hasn’t it? So isn’t that affecting right way FROM WITHIN THAT VIRGO SYMBOL what it’s polarity pisces means perceiving it with that renewed virgo ‘viewpoint’?
Oh yeah, the solution is in the symbol because it is totally interconnected. So once again, what pisces means depends on how virgo is perceived and what virgo means depends on how pisces is perceived....it has little to do with what pisces or virgo REALLY means...it has to do with the SUBJECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS who perceives it, experiences it and lives it....

Meaning as consciousness evolves step by step it will perceive the VERY SAME THING differently...and that’s the deal called evolution....




.as we embrace broader and broader horizons we evolve on a ‘spiral like’ way...we are above the same spot so to speak if we look at our chart...the same symbol will be lived all along the way...question is how?? What level are we experiencing that symbol on the invisible spiral? And whatever that is it will automatically DEFINE the perception of the polarity as well.....

So nothing else changes only the consciousness that perceives experiences and gives meaning to it....
That changes of course that‘s the heart of evolution....but the simple rule i.e. embracing the polarity in whatever level we are is what gives way to grow further and further doesn’t....

 The lesson to embrace the polarity doesn’t change....so there is no coming back to where we never left......what will change is what all this actually MEANS to us and how we live it experiencing it....

Thus the 'whole new way' of living a symbol is actually a life long task and not ‘one off ‘ adventure after which we ‘come back’ and sit on our bum living happily ever after wrapping ourselves with a convenient illusion that we are all ’done’  ......

Well, of course we CAN that’s a choice:-) .....we have free will we can choose anything....

However I personally will never advise my clients to do that for I would seriously mislead and confuse them regarding their actual evolutionary lessons. For the same reason I can not support such illusion to be 'true' for it is the opposite of the truth -- and by the way the opposite of what Wolf is actually teaching.   

"The solution is in the symbol itself." That's very true of course! Because no symbol exists or can have any meaning by itself. Wolf always taught us by way of polarity if you remember....there is no meaning in our world in any way without polarity. That’s how we learn any meaning. This is what means creation and everything in it is RELATIVE.  There is no notion of day without the notion of night, no good/god without evil and so on... no pisces without virgo and vice-verse....

That’s how we subjective, relative souls learn....we learn via our subjectiveness and relatiaveness in order to be ever able to embrace the objectiveness and absolute of god itself....

Understanding the symbol means we understand the evolutionary lesson that lies wherein that symbol. And that symbol always includes a hidden arrow pointing to its polarity so then via continuously embracing that polarity --embracing ever GREATER LEVELS of what all that means, we grow.....

You see the symbol in itself is always whole and complete which includes a PERFECT BALANCE with its polarity. That‘s the simple secret that lies wherein the symbol. It is not the symbol it is OUR consciousness that doesn't know this and needs to learn....it is our consciousness that misses this balance and swings to one direction or another ignoring the wholeness that is present in that symbol....just as in creation ....so it’s not the symbol (nor creation or it‘s underlying laws or rules) what need to change it is just our consciousness with which we perceive it, interpret it and give meaning to it...

So within all that the simple rule of embracing the polarity as the way of ‘dharma’ conscious effort forward our own evolution never changes either....
What it means to us at any point of time and space reality with our evolving consciousness THAT changes and takes us endless WHOLE NEW levels...and we never ‘go back’ to the symbol where we are AT for we never ‘left’ and never will.....What we CAN do is just to EVOLVE that symbol in our consciousness by way of embracing it’s polarity in ever NEWER LEVELS.

Hope this makes sense?

Blessings,
Lia

Ps. for example Wolf has virgo lucifer in the 10th: he never left that symbol BUT EVOLVEs continuously.  he included the polarity pisces and SO diseminates in the widest possible sense (pisces) instead of denying it (virgo)  as somewhere in the past it was the case, now he is able to include it to his work  the knowledge he has relative to this symbol...so he actually serves others on a social level (10th) but this can not happen without embracing and conintuously doing so the polarity of it: pisces in the 4th! He has to emotionally BALANCE this continuously with the polarity point otherwise it will undermine him again and again.....so the traumatised emotional body needs to be dissolved and a new self image built by way of actually dissolving it in the love of god and establishing it’s emotional security from there.......it is an ONGOING process ...for him and for all of us.......so please be careful and don’t ever be fooled by your own lucifer placement it cannot be the bearer of light only in this way....via continuous effort to shed light on it by way of embracing the polarity in ever greater and broader ways .....which never ends as long as we live.....
Lucifer particularly exploits our mistakes and blinds us if we let it.....when we embrace the polarity into it  it‘s like sheding light into a darkest spot....but if we relax our effort it right away becomes a dark spot again....


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 08, 2010, 03:52 PM
Hi Ari,

 understand what your saying about Taurus- to me that is what femininity is all about.

Well I understand what you are saying 'to you' it appears so...but I'd like to ask you to please apply the EA correlation for we are not talking about what you believe (sorry!) we are talking about EA...and taurus has absolutely NOTHING to do with the correlation of the feminine according to EA.

Please read Pluto vol. 1 about the archetypes as what the 2nd house and taurus correlates to. Also read vol.2 about venus.

Please do so for these projections may lead you to misunderstand the chart...the yin energy what you feel actually comes from venus in pisces and has nothing to do with taurus in itself...it also comes from the CANCER 3rd cusp (cancer moon is what correlates to our feminine side and our emotional side which is also a yin energy of course) this 3rd cancer cusp creates a person who one the one hand interacts with it's immediate environment on an EMOTIONAL level and with the pisces venus it will certainly create an appearance (3rd house) of feminine-ness.....all this has nothing to do with taurus in itself...these are perceptions that you picked up from your friend...don't project this perception onto a symbol that has nothing to do with it....
Taurus in itself when it is out of balance can create such selfishness, greed etc. for example....WHEN IT IS OUT OF BALANCE....SO think about that and the fact that taurus will always be define in every chart by THE RULER VENUS....so we can not know anything about taurus in a chart until we haven't examined it's ruler....


So please go back to the EA correlations and make and attempt to correctly apply them.....

Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 08, 2010, 03:56 PM
O, and one more thing: could you please supply the actual birth info for chart?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lesley on Jan 08, 2010, 05:02 PM
Hi Lia,

I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts, I really do (and I know others do too). :)  But to be honest, you tend to lose me in your many words and long verbiage. I do get how passionately you feel about these concepts (and God bless you for it!), and I know you never mean to be off-putting or offensive in your fervor. But I feel like we would have to have a discussion in person for me to understand where you are coming from (and vice versa).

It is of course a back-and-forth thing, the natal placement and the polarity point. I just remember Wolf saying, "The natal placement never gets left behind," and I took your earlier comment literally:
Quote
.IN ORDER TO GET THERE ONE NEEDS TO EMBRACE THE POLARITY of lucifer....just as with all othr symbols.....


All I was trying to add to the discussion was not to leave the natal placement behind. I did not mean to start a big huge debate that, if we were able to discuss this in person, would probably find us agreeing on the answer! :) 

Love and blessings to you,
Lesley


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 08, 2010, 05:49 PM
Hi Lesly,

Sorry for the many words:-) you are right about that also about the personal conversation which can clarify things easier....

In short, I certainly didn't mean to off putting YOU. Must say however I found the person's teaching astrology that you queted from (not Wolf!) mistaken in some aspects and because of that confusing people with certain misconcepts....
What you quoted from him, was (to me) one of the reflections of those misconcepts..... Like embracing something into something doesn't mean we leave that something into which we are embracing ...so that we need to 'come back to it'.......I remember one time he saying we need to 'come back' to our s.node later on in life for that's what's good for our evolution......

To me these are indeed illusions spread as trurths...and becasue of that it confuses people and basically becomes a mis-service  ......

Again, sorry if I expressed it in a way that you thought it has anything to do with you. Please know that I has absolutely nothing to do with you!

I am just expressing my view against a concept.......not against any person not even the one from whom the misconception came from.

love and blessings,
Lia




Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lesley on Jan 08, 2010, 06:26 PM
Hi Lia! :)

I think I understand now...I totally get where you are coming from. Thank you so much for clarifying that. ♥

You remind me of the blessing that is this message board, and the free and open exchange it allows us to have.

Love and blessings to you, and to all,
Lesley


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 08, 2010, 07:06 PM
Quote
Hi Ari, Lia, Lesley and all ….

Just a few questions and comments, hoping it’s ok if I jump in …

This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??

That makes sense to me, however at her evolutionary state, I haven't observed her ever doubting her own beliefs, but the opposite- being really affirmed in them to the point of creating her own reality around them. I think you picked up on that astrologically as well...
.
As an example, her father is of a mainstream christian religion and for some time has tried to get my friend to "change" and not be condemned to hell. So she's been in opposition to her culture about her natural knowing of things since she was a child. And of course how strongly this has effected her feeling of "not being seen" (father, 5th house). To affirm herself, her natural path has been to "create" something that reflects her own spirituality. I see that as Capricorn on the 9th with Saturn retro on the AC. She has been writing a book, and has taught classes about a path that she developed herself.

Quote
…  Neptune in the 7th Sag would correlate to illusions/delusions about not only people in general being fair or good but also to the inherent and general goodness of manifested Creation  … wouldn’t the opposition of the Moon in the 1st Gemini correlate to experiences of disillusionment which have caused her to doubt of her instinctual/emotional response to experience, and (given the Moon’s rulership of the 3rd house Cáncer) this doubts permeating how she generally interprets phenomenal reality ? … this would suggests that she knows (SN ruler being in the 9th conjunct NN), but, though she knows, she still doubts, and somehow, perhaps at a mental level keeps thinking things may be one way or the other … thus needing to recreate experiences leading to establish what is actually real for her … and of course, to take emotion into the picture, ie. integrating her emotional response as necessary information in the process of establishing phenomenal reality … to think with her emotional body instead of suppressing emotion …. for instance, if she happens to feel fear, not to get scared but to think that her body is telling her that here may be something dangerous of what she needs to be aware …. also, to take note of what she doubts of instead of thinking that it doesn’t matter whether it is one way or the other, in order to elaborate what the emotional reasons for the doubts are …

So is that the reasoning for why some time ago, all of her friends and neighbors got together and "confronted her" for trying to leave a relationship that was VERY ABUSIVE? Everyone around her was distorted in thinking she should actually stay in the relationship. She finally had to realize that she was being overly trusting to everyone, and left that world behind. Is this cancer on the third (emotional reluctance to change one's surrounding) with moon in gemini conj saturn (disconnected from emotions instinct) opposing Neptune in sag in the 7th (everyone else's projections of who she is, what's best for her).

Quote
… It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap) …. given that  Pluto rules the 7th where Neptune lies, and the sextile between Pluto and Neptune, keeping in mind that Pluto/Mars  are in full phase with Mars ruling her 12th … wouldn’t she feel easily drawn to compulsively keep on asserting herself in self-deluding relationships , as an unconscious means to create necessary confrontations with reality?? … given that the SN is in the 3rd the ruler being the Sun in the 9th and with Jupiter in the 8th Sag, she would be very emotionally invested in her beliefs … though, the inconjunct between Saturn/Jupiter suggests that she would  need to create experiences leading to crisis in order to reevaluate how she is interpreting reality about herself, others and life in general … in order to readjust these beliefs …  she would have been reluctant to do this because she has preferred to suppress or ignore her own doubts and just trust her strength to face whatever comes up and/or to change situations and people, as compensation of feelings of not being loved (Pluto 5th Libra, Venus  10th Pisces, Chiron in Aries opposing Pluto, Saturn Rx 1st …), this creating a superwoman type complex ??

pluto in libra in 5th ruling 7th house where neptune is, sextile neptune- are you saying a pattern of attracting relationships in which she can be honored and admired as a way of experiencing more control in her relationships? (also, whats the relevance of the mars pluto phase here?)

Quote
… with Pluto in the 5th, it is clear that the Lucifer conjunction refers at this level the need to stop depending on others to confirm her specialness …. the NN ruler Uranus going back to the 5th indicating the intention to free herself of the need to be loved and reckoned by so many others, or the need to be so special to deserve being loved  … thus, accepting to be loved and acknowledged by the right people as an equal … this would in turn allow the conscious confirmation to be made that there are things good and things not so good, things she can bear and things she must avoid, instead of taking over herself the darkness of others as a means to be loved, though losing sight  of her own light in the way

… then, would the Neptune square to SN of Lucifer in the 4rd Leo correlate to how her emotional dependence on ego recognition (4th Leo) have prepared the ground for her delusions/illusions about others, about her need to heal others, potential disillusionments as to who she can and she cannot help, and further, about beliefs and interpretation of reality at a metaphysical level?

ah, that makes sense to me. And so are you saying, similar to the last point i commented on, that her patterns to "help others" (neptune in 7th) have been highly derived from her need to be special (sn lucifer in leo in 4th)? and that has lead her to be disillusioned about her own limitations and creating healthy boundaries (neptune in 7th) as to not just let anyone in who promised her glory (lucifer sn in leo 4th).

Thank you for the chance to participate in this thread, wishing to read your upcoming posts and answers on the subject.

I just want to say how nice it is to be reading someone's interpretation. I'm learning a lot bc you posted gonzalo and I look forward to hearing your responses.
...........

Lia, I did supply the birth data (on the chart image itself)... are you referring to something else?

Quote
Well I understand what you are saying 'to you' it appears so...but I'd like to ask you to please apply the EA correlation for we are not talking about what you believe (sorry!) we are talking about EA...and taurus has absolutely NOTHING to do with the correlation of the feminine according to EA.

Please read Pluto vol. 1 about the archetypes as what the 2nd house and taurus correlates to. Also read vol.2 about venus.

Please do so for these projections may lead you to misunderstand the chart...the yin energy what you feel actually comes from venus in pisces and has nothing to do with taurus in itself...it also comes from the CANCER 3rd cusp (cancer moon is what correlates to our feminine side and our emotional side which is also a yin energy of course) this 3rd cancer cusp creates a person who one the one hand interacts with it's immediate environment on an EMOTIONAL level and with the pisces venus it will certainly create an appearance (3rd house) of feminine-ness.....all this has nothing to do with taurus in itself...these are perceptions that you picked up from your friend...don't project this perception onto a symbol that has nothing to do with it....
Taurus in itself when it is out of balance can create such selfishness, greed etc. for example....WHEN IT IS OUT OF BALANCE....SO think about that and the fact that taurus will always be define in every chart by THE RULER VENUS....so we can not know anything about taurus in a chart until we haven't examined it's ruler....

So please go back to the EA correlations and make and attempt to correctly apply them.....


I really appreciate the energy your putting into this, thank you. I care if I'm misapplying the information on the chart, as I am committed to learn the EA reasoning. However, defining a word is just a matter of linguistics. Is there anything I wrote that you find to be inaccurate as far as INTERPRETATION from an ea point of view goes?

Quote
I understand what your saying about Taurus- to me that is what femininity is all about. In this case, I can see the illusions (12th house) have been based on a guilt that it was wrong for her to enjoy sensuality, and pleasure for her own self. I would still assess from this chart that this can be linked to previous lifetimes in which she was persecuted for how she related to her own values. I use femininity here as a way to describe the sensual survival nature of Taurus- simply enjoying her body and experiencing the love of it- from the point of view of being connected to her natural resources, and the ability to receive what is. Relative to Pluto and the nodes- there were past lives in which she was a preistess of sorts, leading orgies or things like that (5th house pluto sextile neptune in 7th, south node in leo in the 3rd with sun in Aquarius- and also, the ruler of the nn of Lucifer which is conj the lunar north node in Leo in the 5th, opposing mars- both of which are semi/sesqui square the nodes for having "overdone" it in the past). Activities that were blissful and fun, but also naive in which she shared herself too openly with others, and irresponsible at times (venus in pisces, neptune in 7th opposing saturn) resulting in an attraction of souls that had negative intentions and being persecuted by social figures. Is this false?? If so, why?

The Pallas athene here seems to imply a pattern of self sacrifice (12th) that has developed as it relates to what makes her life worth living (taurus)- such that she developed an idealized concept of purity, and felt personal pleasure (Taurus) to be sinful. What she built (nn of lucifer in 10th) was alternative structures (aquarius in the 10th) that allowed for quiet and meditation (taurus in the 12th). The skipped step here i believe is in having believed that the body, or personal riches leads to sin- while at some point she was on the opposite end, over doing pleasure in a way that wasn't responsible or ethical.

And the intent of Taurus is to be connected to LIFE. To be "in the body". So she's been struggling to find a balance between her personal resources and TRUTH.

This Pallas athene is ruled by Venus in Pisces in the 10th which is conjunct Vesta- showing that she has set herself up in society, and committed herself to be a "savior" so to speak. She has been devoted to direct her personal resources towards the public in such a way as to create something that can be beneficial for the masses. Her sense of self worth has been linked to becoming someone, or building something tangible and helpful in the world. Thus having created relationships with other people (venus in pisces square neptune in 7th) who she thought she was helping, but was really affirming her own sense of self worth (neptune square sn of Lucifer in Leo in 4th)

I feel like I'm creating a very specific story with all this information, and I'd love to know if I'm totally missing the boat... Thank you everyone again for just being here


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lucius on Jan 08, 2010, 07:17 PM
Lesley & Lia, if I may add a thought - I, too, Lesley got the general idea that Lia expressed.  And I think what she is saying & at any rate what I am saying is that no planet in our chart is finally 'resolved' the symbols are rather evolved.  Lucifer's placement will be a lifetime evolution as all the other symbols in the chart. 

Also, with Lucifer it itself is a double-edged sword, an innate duality.  That is represented by the symbol itself and the polarity is helpful in evolving that symbol.

Example - Lucifer in Cancer - influenced by evil it would correlate with a lack of emotional security leading to all types of behaviors to fill the emotional need, being emotionally overwhelmed, isolating one's self because of sensitivity, allowing masochistic behaviors, passive-aggressive, etc.  Bearer of Light would be emotional empathy and depth, nurturing without expectation, and deep recognition that security is accepting the relativity of the ego - and that the ego's 'home' is Spirit.

Capricorn polarity helps in creating responibility for emotions and responsibilty for actions within the world or withholding that action and to apply proper judgment to one's self and actions.  I think the point is that these issues are not resolved but ever present but within a spectrum dependent upon one's evolution.

Anyway - I think that's a shorter version of what Lia said...or part of what she said! 


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lucius on Jan 08, 2010, 07:34 PM
Ari Moshe - I don't think wanting to be fully in 'life' and in her body is specific to the archetype of Taurus.  I think this gal is dealing with a couple of millenia of unnatural law and the increasing 'split' of mind/body and the whole 'transcendent' philosophy.  Most women who have any consciousness are trying to overcome the subconscious assumptions of the 'dirtiness' or their bodies, their natural wisdom, etc. etc. If this woman has a strong 'feminine' vibe having the moon rising & venus in pisces in the 10 ties into that, as well as elucidating her issues to begin with (looking at that Saturn/Moon rising, not to mention an 11th Mars in aries!).

I think the whole fifth/ninth connection SN NN Sun & Pluto/Lucifer shows a dynamic where she needs to correct a narcisstic viewpoint - first to stand firm in her beliefs, but to recognize it's ultimately relative and to beware of inflation of her sense of destiny or responsibility - if she does have a gift it needs to be expressed carefully with full recognition that it is Spirit and not her ego she works for.  

Just my thoughts, hope it helps.


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Gonzalo on Jan 08, 2010, 08:31 PM
Hi Ari,

Thank you for your feedback, and I a glad this story is getting much clearer ...

Yes, I agree with you that she must have quite a lot of knowledge and certainty gained through direct experience and from her spiritual studies … however, i have the feeling that the issue of evil is very difficult to really understand … mostly because from the point of view of consensus the knowledge about evil has been either distorted, ridiculized  and/or suppressed, this suppression being also present at the individuated level of knowledge … a banalization of evil which considers it to be a merely human phenomenon (just as it has happened with God itself ... ) …  I think one should be aware of this as many many people who hear any of us talking about evil will think we are preaching, and/or that we are crazy (paranoids) –at least that’s the way it is here in Chile (something I can tell by my own experience, and not only with people at consensus) … remember the story Jeffrey tells about Kriyananda who despite being a very evolved Soul did not believe that evil was a supernatural reality, and how he needed to get that reality proven …  or even how Jeffrey himself underwent intense and very ugly experiences to get to acknowledge the nature of that energy, experiences which have led to all this reflection and teaching thereof …  and it is necessary to remember that very very evolved beings have experienced crisis in their beliefs, just like “the great one called Jesus “ or Francis of Assis have … 

… wouldn’t the purpose involved in her Mount Shasta experience be indicated by the Mercury transit, relative to the natal signature of Mercury ?

“pluto in libra in 5th ruling 7th house where neptune is, sextile neptune- are you saying a pattern of attracting relationships in which she can be honored and admired as a way of experiencing more control in her relationships? (also, whats the relevance of the mars pluto phase here?)”

I wouldn’t say to gain more control … at least it wouldn’t operate that way at her stage of evolution … I would rather say perhaps a need to be loved for who she is, but also by others who cannot understand who she is, this perhaps leading her to minimize her awareness of the discrepancy existing between who she really is and what others are perceiving … the sextile aspect between Pluto and Neptune requires withdrawal and self-contemplation …. Though Pluto in the 5th Libra and Neptune placed in the 7th would tend to operate more externally, towards others … the opposition aspect between Mars and Pluto requires learning balance between withdrawal and willful assertion … further, it is most likely given her EC and the chart signature that she was born with unresolved trauma …. and there are indicators of trauma linked with confrontations with others affecting her though process and belief structure … Uranus opposes Mars (in the 11th ) and both make a T- square to Mercury in the 9th … Uranus semisquares the 7th house Neptune in Sag … the Sun ruling the 3rd house SN conjuncts the NN, ie. the intent to recreate these trauma for resolution and release …
 

“And so are you saying, similar to the last point i commented on, that her patterns to "help others" (neptune in 7th) have been highly derived from her need to be special (sn lucifer in leo in 4th)? and that has lead her to be disillusioned about her own limitations and creating healthy boundaries (neptune in 7th) as to not just let anyone in who promised her glory (lucifer sn in leo 4th)”.


… and perhaps an unfulfilled need to be taken care of and emotionally nurtured as she specifically needed creating displaced emotions projected via expectation towards others …  creating an intensified emotional response ... Moon 1st house opposition Neptune 7th House … given the consensus parents, wouldn´t that be most likely ?


God Bless,

Gonzalo.


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 08, 2010, 08:47 PM
Hi Gonzalo and all,

You have some very good insights on this chart.
I’d like to add a few things to think about:

It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap)  

What I would suggest to consider is the fact that the 5th house cusp is actually virgo.. Therefore the underlying intention via self actualization for the soul was/is to serve others in some ways. If we look at the ruler mercury is 9th in capr. Capr amongst other things is about responsibility and our ability to consider a social whole. So if we look at capr. in the 9th house and connect mercury from there; natural law, intuitive faculty via which the person perceives or trying to perceive what is true and that is connected/based on a natural (9th house) social awareness and a sense of responsibility towards that social whole.....so that defines the nature of the thoughts the person has and this is what’s ruling the 5th house within which we then find libra pluto conj. lucifer. The person’s intrinsic  need for positive feedback is connected to a need to be needed (libra) and a need to serve as the way of self actualization.

What and how can lucifer distort here? Of course it is very important to look at ruler venus in the 10th in pisces. Obviously there are some kind of illusions here. 10th house cusp is aq.....what is the person’s perception about society and people in general? Of course you are right, neptune (as ruler of venus) in the 7th house correlates to having illusions about other people.
However here too we need to consider the house cusp of the 7th which is actually scorpio, ruled by 5th house pluto which is conj. lucifer.

So the ways the person created relationships are based on the plutonian impulse which here is defined by libra and 5th house...what will bring the positive feedback that the soul was hungry for and what happened here with lucifer conj. pluto? What could be exploited/distorted here?

Was the soul heavily relying on social feedback? On how others expressed what they think about and what they need from the soul and was that based on some heavy duty  illusion?

How the soul operated the pluto impulse by way of the s.node? Which is leo in the 3rd.Cusp is cancer. Was the soul giving in to the immediate environment and accepted intellectual knowledge of some sort of logic/study as the truth by way of social expectation and it’s own need to be recognised and accepted as a ‘good’ person who provides a ‘good service’ for others relative to what they said they need? Was the person experiencing illusions and believed in something which wasn’t real just to experience disillusionment and despair at the end? (neptune in 7th in sag ruling the 10th venus) How much it’s own need for positive recognition was a part of this disillusionment?

How the person’s sense of truth (neptune in sag and 9th house capr. cusp plus jupiter is ‘hidden’ in the 8th house) has been influenced by certain illusions, and certain security needs of its own? (the symbol in our 8th house ‘destined’ to go through intense evolution as well as any scorpio planets) The soul’s intention and motivations reflect in pluto, scorpio and the 8th house. We have a sag 8th house here jupiter in it: the soul desires to evolve it’s sense of truth so it desires (with jup in the 8th) to merge with the symbols of truth...

Then the ruler of the s.node is on the n.node! So on the one hand the life is a repetition in a sense and yet the aim is to repeat it in a totally new way. Instead of relying on the feedback of others and identify it’s individuality according to that the lesson is to become truly liberated from all that stuff and dare to be who and how she really is....to express it’s individuality according to it’s essential nature independent if others like it and give positive feedback or not....

In the past the soul’s original intentions has been undermined by evil many many times....by way of giving in to others, by way of adjusting to their ways because of the plutonian fears and insecurity andneed of recogniton...........

Mercury in the 9th also symbolise the CHANGING views as what is or what isn’t true....trying to left brain understand what is a right brain process....even perhaps convincing  oneself that someting is right...so there has been certainly changes in what he soul considered was true...and there is some guilt about it!

All this essentially came out of the way of thinking the way of social awareness and responsibility that the soul felt towards others....this then affected the soul perception of reality and how it structured it’s reality.....


Putting others on a pedestal projecting ideals and illusions onto them (as you said it rightly) affected how it perceived others and what they needed or expected from the soul.

There have been already attempts to sort this out (sun on n.node=it’s not the first life the soul tries to accomplish it’s evolutionary lesson but there is still work to be done) So as to be able to be a ’group of one’ if necessary and act accordingly what it perceives is objectively true even if that results in isolation. (aq. n.node AND in the 9th house!)

The soul desires to actualise it’s essential individuality which has been undermined in the past by evil via the ways the soul generally related to others and society itself....There has been a great deal of religious teachings that affected this perception.....behind it all there was a compulsive need to be needed and the need for positive feedback ..even for the cost of the soul inner sense of truth......so for that there is a guilt inwardly for forsaking the truth and giving in to social and religious expectations placing an absolute value onto OTHERS and their idealised reality and feedback (neptune in 7th in sag plus the compulsion of pluto in libra in 5th) believing that was the truth and that was what ’god wanted’ from the soul....

So the service the soul has given by way of fulfilling these obligations/ expectations in order to have the positive feedback backfired and such created traumas (mercury square to uranus in 5th and uranus is the ruler of the sun which is the ruler of the s.node) so that the whole 5th house (subjective reality centre from where the self actualization was attempted in this way) have been blown to pieces many times....the soul finding itself totally disconnected, shocked and traumatized.....

 ...uranus is new phase to pluto: trauma leads to liberation by way of exploding all that which we know and familiar with and bringing in what the soul didn’t know and  never expected. The traumas were received by the very people the soul loved and attempted to give to......of course this giving was defined by the soul’s subjective perception of what they need.....

6th cusp is libra: the underlying lesson for self improvement lies within the outer side of venus: the soul needs to improve its perception of other people‘s actual reality, relativity and objectivity along with equality and the right way giving....giving according to other‘s actual reality and not what the soul thinks they need.....

==This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??==


There is a new chapter started about defining reality AND responsibility in brand new ways. Trial and error, as what is one's responsibility (one's job if we like to call it that way) and what is not....moon is also 1st hoiuse new conj. to saturn.... moon is in gemini a bran new way of constructing self image is also under way....

So there has been already a lot of culmination in the 12th....thats where the new beginnings come out of in essence....but taurus is still in the 12th so there still a lot of culmination needs to be completed during this life ....Ac is also taurus so some aspect of it already culminated and a new way of relating to oneself can evolve in this life....removing the illusions regarding others what they mean to a soul will result in a new way of the inner relationship to oneself and necessarily so....The illusion is twofold: one side is to remove any personal identification with the divine so to speak...to arrive to equaltiy and objectivity...so not to place more importance to one's life and one's ability to give to others or being the 'special one' etc. than one actually is...just one out of many totally equal to others...the other side is to remove the guilt that affected the soul and distorted it's perception of reality...capr. on the 9th mercury there....

prior to the current life the soul have gone through traumas that thrown the soul back to its' natural self (aq. sun on n.node) but the soul experienced this as total trauma at first...yet it is attempting to induce honesty towards oneself even at the cost of trauma....for at the end the true individuality of the soul is worthwhile and it needs to find the courage to utilise this (taurus) and actualise it sun according to how it really is....

Moon opp. to jup: the emotional body doesn’t settle anymore with the old notion of what is true, it now became aware that there is another side of the thing emotionally as well..... In the past there was a belief that those it merged with were representing the truth.....yet the selection of the 8th house is based on teh 7th of course...and neptune there caused the illusion....

There is a true and honest desire in the soul to find the truth and to embrace the whole truth ...(neptune in sag ruled by jup in sag from 8th) ...but the problem with neptnne is that the soul 'feels' this is the highest value and it perceives it as if it was already a reality.....yet it is not.....it's an ideal projected onto reality.......

If we understand the sun in aq. in 9th as the ruler of the leo s.node we can see where it actually lead ....uranus ruling the sun of course: so instead of having the positive outcome and feedback what happened? Was the soul not isolated and ‘cast out’ at the end by the very people it thought it served and they needed her?

Did the soul actually perceie the actual realitiy of others did it not make wrong choices based on illusions as what people and what groups etc. to belong to? (uranus in libra in 5th, and libra is actually the 6th cusp; essential self improvement lesson is nothing else but libra. The soul needs to work on the very libra lesson in order to improve itself, all aspects of it, i.e. relativity, equality, giving according to what others actually need vs. what the soul may think or believe they need, fairness based on equalty, becoming aware where others are really coming from instead of projecting onto them either positive or negative ways or both...and so on....)


Cont. later:-)



L


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 08, 2010, 09:28 PM
thanks for your thoughts lucius- it does help.
how then would you interpret the pallas in taurus in the 12th square the nn of lucifer?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 08, 2010, 10:10 PM
Gonzalo,

“And so are you saying, similar to the last point i commented on, that her patterns to "help others" (neptune in 7th) have been highly derived from her need to be special (sn lucifer in leo in 4th)? and that has lead her to be disillusioned about her own limitations and creating healthy boundaries (neptune in 7th) as to not just let anyone in who promised her glory (lucifer sn in leo 4th)”.

… and perhaps an unfulfilled need to be taken care of and emotionally nurtured as she specifically needed creating displaced emotions projected via expectation towards others …  creating an intensified emotional response ... Moon 1st house opposition Neptune 7th House … given the consensus parents, wouldn´t that be most likely ?

That's really interesting. Her current living situation is really revealing to how she has chosen to resolve that.
She's living with her partner on the same property as her in-laws. This seems like an expression of lucifer sn in leo in the 4th, squaring that neptune, and ruled by the sun (being who she is- nn aquarius) which rules the south node in the 3rd house for inlaws (which is a challenge to being who she is). Her need to be taken care of and be nurtured in a safe and healthy way could only be accessed by developing her relationship in the context of a home that supports who she is on a spiritual level (resolving the sn lucifer leo 4th house square to neptune).

I don't know too much about her past relationships- but I know there has always been a challenging environment of people around it (3rd house) that sought to disqualify who she actually was.



Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 09, 2010, 09:19 AM
Hi Ari and All,

First sorry I haven't noticed the birth data because in order to view the chart I had to scroll to the side and from there the data is not visible:-)

Anyhow, I wanted to add about lucifer s.node squared by neptune typically points out the ways how evil actually connected to our illusions and how it undermines even one's highest ideals when we buy into illusions....
Interaction with others has been extremely important for the soul (emotional security is based on the immediate environment and teh emotional feedback from others; 3rd cancer cusp this is where emotional security is based on, how the soul THINKS via a left brain process was the base of this security...family members, immediate friends etc. ....
The soul's subjective reality and it's attempt to actualise itself within the immediate environment has been affected distorted by evil and the way it happened was distorting the soul natural weakness (lucifer s.node) of wanting to be loved, accepted recognised etc. by this immediate environment....
The soul was hiding and disconnecting from it's actual natural self (aq. sun in 9th) and because of the emotional security needs (mercury also rules moon the ruler of the 3rd cusp) and adjusted to concepts and philosophies/religions etc. that were socially accepted as truths....

which resulted in ever more disconnecting from it's actual natural self .(aq sun and n.node) ...in this way the soul traumatised not just itself but other people via the way it lived it's life (sun in aq. in 9th ruler of s.node of lucifer) ..the trauma happened in a way that the soul DIDN'T EVEN KNOW because it was so disconnected from the actual objective truth at that time.....aq. 10th house cusp ruled by 5th uranus.....the disconnection from the actual SOCIAL REALITY and then we found venus in pisces in 10th....so what the soul thought was doing and who it was in a social picture and what the actual reality was has been mixed with evil's influence and it was based on incredibly confused perception, illusions and  delusions.....

This chart is actually a good example how our tendency for illusions can lead to being totally fooled by evil and exploit even the best intentions if we don't check reality....how a soul can be literally fragmented (aq) and totally confused with delusions (venus in pisces) about itself and others.....what needs to happen is THOROUGH DISCRIMINATION sorting out what the soul's actual reality is (polarity of neptune) looking at it with an objective mind which can question EVERYTHING but EVERYTHING the soul ever thought was true (sag neptune)

The n.node of lucifer conj. to n.node of the moon and sun points out the way of LIBERATION from it all...the soul has to BREAK FREE totally no matter what it takes be alone withdraw from any societal connection if that's what it takes and re-discover who it really is naturally and be truthful to IT'S ACTUAL INDIVIDUALITY....it has to objectify it's subjective reality and remove any remaining illusions, any compulsive need to be liked, to be accepted to be given positive feedback from those it placed it's emotional security in the past.....to see others objectively and see oneself objectively....

To ACCEPT the responsibility for its mistaken actions of the past and understand the fact that it's not that the soul's intention were wrong, but what it thought was real and according to that illusionary reality it acted......mars in aries in 11th....the soul's reality was limited (AC is taurus limitation not seeing the whole 'sky' just a segment from the proverbial 'well') and that was based of course on venus in pisces: illusions.  Mars opp. to uranus from 11th to 5th....the trauma is based on the soul's intention to wanting to bring liberation and good for all, at least for the community it lived in, but it was based on illusions: 11th house cusp is pisces ruled by venus...what the soul THOUGHT was true and serving some sort of divine goal actually traumatised people and the soul didn't know it.....so the very beliefs the soul had has resulted in traumas .....the house of trauma defined by the pisces cusp...ruled by neptune in the 7th what the soul thought was true and how it related to others based on these illusions.....
This then in return caused such trauma to the subjective reality too 5th house and blew it to pieces....
All is relates back to evil....how evil can turn reality upside down and create the very OPPOSITE then what one intended....mars opp. uranus extremely violent traumas and all that points back to aq. sun in the 9th as ruler of uranus, the objective reality at one point revealed itself about other people that the soul were enmeshed with ..... the soul thought these people were representing truth, god and all the rest and wanted to do what is best for the social whole according to 'god'....pisces venus....

Evil was taken in with open arms without knowing it ....if fed the soul's weakness for positive recognition and it lead the soul to disconnect from its inner sense of truth...

The n.node of lucifer is pointing out the need for ABSOLUTE objectivity...so by way of actualising the n.node and sun the soul can overcome the lucifer lesson as well...by way of paying very close inner attention of EVERY MOTIVATION AND INTENTION that the soul has and NEVER AGAIN buy into feedback based, social expectation based and above all recognition based motivations the polarity of natal lucifer is aries 11th house: defining it's own actual reality and based on that it's true intentions for equality and objectivity for the benefit of the whole with no regards if the immediate environment judges or her or not, needs her or not etc. so again be the group of one if needed and stop living a lie....

Learn to accept oneself just as is without any illusion (12th taurus, pisces venus) without any compensation (jup 8th house and neptune in sag) and learn to SEE AND HEAR others as they really are (polarity of venus is virgo, 6th house cusp is libra) so discrimination is a major lesson to learn...

In this way the soul can get liberated from evil as well and use it as a bearer of light...to grow and evolve to the state when the soul can actually help others too, to do the same....this can not happen as long as the pluto ppp.in 11th and n.node/sun lessons are not done....

 This chart to me is a very good example how evil can influence and totally FOOL any of us by way of illusions EVEN if we have good intentions...one doesn’t have to have fundamentally bad intention in order to be used and distorted by evil....

This is how pisces, neptune and the 12th house are related to evil for where we have illusions we give space for evil to tap in....

The cosmic ’maya’ the divine illusion of creation is not all wholly and good....we all have a god given higher ’value’ an unconscious ideal via which we try to find our ways back to home...that too is neptune, 12th house pisces.....yet this very symbol in itself has no discrimination it dissolves the boundaries between everything and within that between good and evil....indeed it all came from the same source...yet in our world as long as we haven‘t learned to discriminate (thus continuously embracing its polarity) as what is REALITY and what is only ideal and illusion/delusion we will find within this very symbol the most disillusioning experiences which can undermine even our faith in good/god.....what we value MOST on an unconscious level (neptune being the higher octave of venus!) can create for all of us the MOST painful experiences at one point of time after we BELIEVED  something was real it occurs to be a total illusion....so it just disappears and dissolves into nothingness.....

So the amazing value in the neptune/12 house/pisces archetype is that we can actually identify WHERE exactly can’t we see clearly the boundaries BETWEEN EVIL AND GOD/ESS....how exactly we create illusions and delusions and why....WHAT exactly we value unconsciously so highly that we simply unable to discriminate between reality and our own ideals projected onto reality and believing it is ’real’........the NATURE of our particular ways of creating illusions will always invisibly connected to our natal placement of lucifer....pointing to our weakest point....Why it is related? Simply because of the nature of evil...not being seen not being noticed...where we have LEAST discrimination that’s the best entrance for evil....
As strange as it may sound it is exactly where from this influence can then find ways of affecting our subjective consciousness and settle in then in the whatever weakest point we have...that‘s lucifer‘s natal placement.....
Yet the more we remove our own illusions and learn to deal with the whatever ACTUAL REALITY  we have (by way of applying discrimination so via the polarity point of neptune) we will strengthen our overall ability to identify and eliminate evil as well.....to actually use it for it’s adversary and evolve it to be the bearer of light.....


Hope this helps?


Blessings,
Lia




Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Rad on Jan 09, 2010, 11:30 AM
Really love seeing this kind of interaction among the members here. Just GREAT !!

Rad


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lucius on Jan 09, 2010, 08:01 PM
I'll put a couple more pennies into the cup here although others are using much more energy, thought & time.  So, with the Pallas, 12th, Taurus and Venus 10th, pisces I think we see clearly the issues of her innate sense of spirit & self & values and those of the patriarchy & general consensus conditioning and her desire to get back to her own root and from there Spirit.  I do see that she may have done what she needed or thought she needed to do to survive - she danced to a tune, someone else's, so to speak - she can be very good at filling other's projections & expectations...I see someone who could be a the 'darling' and invested herself emotionally in that although she was conscious of a lie.  This, I think, ties into the myth of Pallas - she sprung from her father's head!  She  is in cahoots with the masculine - which, of course, isn't necessarily negative at all, but I see this tying into surviving and adapting via playing a certain type of patriarchal-sanctioned role that was false to her inner truth.  So, that's what I'd say to that. 


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 09, 2010, 09:42 PM
Hi Lia, Im sitting with your interpretation. i'm going to re-write some of what you wrote/ask q's for the sake of deepening my understanding/making sure i understand. Thank you for such a contribution.

Hi Gonzalo and all,

You have some very good insights on this chart.
I’d like to add a few things to think about:

It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap)

What I would suggest to consider is the fact that the 5th house cusp is actually virgo.. Therefore the underlying intention via self actualization for the soul was/is to serve others in some ways. If we look at the ruler mercury is 9th in capr. Capr amongst other things is about responsibility and our ability to consider a social whole. So if we look at capr. in the 9th house and connect mercury from there; natural law, intuitive faculty via which the person perceives or trying to perceive what is true and that is connected/based on a natural (9th house) social awareness and a sense of responsibility towards that social whole.....so that defines the nature of the thoughts the person has and this is what’s ruling the 5th house within which we then find libra pluto conj. lucifer. The person’s intrinsic  need for positive feedback is connected to a need to be needed (libra) and a need to serve as the way of self actualization.

So if I understand this correctly. Virgo being on the cusp of her fifth house- the ruler of which will DEFINE for us how she has sought to impact a special purpose, and also how the issues of natal pluto lucifer were experienced. The underlying approach was one of service, which was done through TEACHING. In this case it is mercury in capricorn in the 9th= social contribution relative to her own personal discovery of natural law. And so the need to be liked and appreciated was linked to how socially credible and responsible she was as a teacher.

What and how can lucifer distort here? Of course it is very important to look at ruler venus in the 10th in pisces. Obviously there are some kind of illusions here. 10th house cusp is aq.....what is the person’s perception about society and people in general? Of course you are right, neptune (as ruler of venus) in the 7th house correlates to having illusions about other people.
However here too we need to consider the house cusp of the 7th which is actually scorpio, ruled by 5th house pluto which is conj. lucifer.

So the ways the person created relationships are based on the plutonian impulse which here is defined by libra and 5th house...what will bring the positive feedback that the soul was hungry for and what happened here with lucifer conj. pluto? What could be exploited/distorted here?

Was the soul heavily relying on social feedback? On how others expressed what they think about and what they need from the soul and was that based on some heavy duty  illusion?

so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th, conj lucifer which itself is ruled by mercury in cap in the 9th- can we then conclude that she her patterns has been to "help" people on a "professional" level by being a mentor- offering guidance and counsel to others as a way to be respected- and thus to fulfill the desire nature to be liked? would it make sense to say that she would create an IMMENSE degree of popularity for herself as a result of this pattern?

How the soul operated the pluto impulse by way of the s.node? Which is leo in the 3rd.Cusp is cancer. Was the soul giving in to the immediate environment and accepted intellectual knowledge of some sort of logic/study as the truth by way of social expectation and it’s own need to be recognised and accepted as a ‘good’ person who provides a ‘good service’ for others relative to what they said they need? Was the person experiencing illusions and believed in something which wasn’t real just to experience disillusionment and despair at the end? (neptune in 7th in sag ruling the 10th venus) How much it’s own need for positive recognition was a part of this disillusionment?

How the person’s sense of truth (neptune in sag and 9th house capr. cusp plus jupiter is ‘hidden’ in the 8th house) has been influenced by certain illusions, and certain security needs of its own? (the symbol in our 8th house ‘destined’ to go through intense evolution as well as any scorpio planets) The soul’s intention and motivations reflect in pluto, scorpio and the 8th house. We have a sag 8th house here jupiter in it: the soul desires to evolve it’s sense of truth so it desires (with jup in the 8th) to merge with the symbols of truth...

Then the ruler of the s.node is on the n.node! So on the one hand the life is a repetition in a sense and yet the aim is to repeat it in a totally new way. Instead of relying on the feedback of others and identify it’s individuality according to that the lesson is to become truly liberated from all that stuff and dare to be who and how she really is....to express it’s individuality according to it’s essential nature independent if others like it and give positive feedback or not....

In the past the soul’s original intentions has been undermined by evil many many times....by way of giving in to others, by way of adjusting to their ways because of the plutonian fears and insecurity andneed of recogniton...........

Mercury in the 9th also symbolise the CHANGING views as what is or what isn’t true....trying to left brain understand what is a right brain process....even perhaps convincing  oneself that someting is right...so there has been certainly changes in what he soul considered was true...and there is some guilt about it!


All this essentially came out of the way of thinking the way of social awareness and responsibility that the soul felt towards others....this then affected the soul perception of reality and how it structured it’s reality.....

I see that you address this in the next paragraph- re: religious guilt. also, is that at all connected to natal mercury semi square neptune?

Putting others on a pedestal projecting ideals and illusions onto them (as you said it rightly) affected how it perceived others and what they needed or expected from the soul.

There have been already attempts to sort this out (sun on n.node=it’s not the first life the soul tries to accomplish it’s evolutionary lesson but there is still work to be done) So as to be able to be a ’group of one’ if necessary and act accordingly what it perceives is objectively true even if that results in isolation. (aq. n.node AND in the 9th house!)

The soul desires to actualise it’s essential individuality which has been undermined in the past by evil via the ways the soul generally related to others and society itself....There has been a great deal of religious teachings that affected this perception.....behind it all there was a compulsive need to be needed and the need for positive feedback ..even for the cost of the soul inner sense of truth......so for that there is a guilt inwardly for forsaking the truth and giving in to social and religious expectations placing an absolute value onto OTHERS and their idealised reality and feedback (neptune in 7th in sag plus the compulsion of pluto in libra in 5th) believing that was the truth and that was what ’god wanted’ from the soul....


So the service the soul has given by way of fulfilling these obligations/ expectations in order to have the positive feedback backfired and such created traumas (mercury square to uranus in 5th and uranus is the ruler of the sun which is the ruler of the s.node) so that the whole 5th house (subjective reality centre from where the self actualization was attempted in this way) have been blown to pieces many times....the soul finding itself totally disconnected, shocked and traumatized.....

i think i understand this. her mercury, which we established has been crucial in how she served as a teacher mentor in society (cap in the 9th), and thusly gained respect (ruler of 5th house pluto lucifer conjunction in libra- influence by evil via the need to be liked), squaring uranus which is also in the 5th indicates that at some point the attempt to "cover up" her uniqueness and please anyone backfired- as certain individuals felt who she was to be wrong. they thus persecuted her for who she was. this was very much a trauma for her. Is this correct?

 ...uranus is new phase to pluto: trauma leads to liberation by way of exploding all that which we know and familiar with and bringing in what the soul didn’t know and  never expected. The traumas were received by the very people the soul loved and attempted to give to......of course this giving was defined by the soul’s subjective perception of what they need.....

the trauma being received by the people she was trying to give love to- how is that indicated in the chart? Is it at all connected to Pluto ruling 7th house cusp- and the pluto uranus phase? If so, I dont get how that works.

6th cusp is libra: the underlying lesson for self improvement lies within the outer side of venus: the soul needs to improve its perception of other people‘s actual reality, relativity and objectivity along with equality and the right way giving....giving according to other‘s actual reality and not what the soul thinks they need.....

==This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??==


There is a new chapter started about defining reality AND responsibility in brand new ways. Trial and error, as what is one's responsibility (one's job if we like to call it that way) and what is not....moon is also 1st hoiuse new conj. to saturn.... moon is in gemini a bran new way of constructing self image is also under way....

Saturn retro on the ac, in the context of saturn ruling the mercury in capricorn: can we understand the retrogradation of Saturn here to imply that she "tried too hard" in the past to gain social acceptance? And as a result, there is a pressure in her soul in this life to internalize her social purpose and direction, and overcome social opposition to really be who she is in the context of the path she is stabilizing for herself (saturn in taurus in 1st). saturn retro also points the way to uranus...

So there has been already a lot of culmination in the 12th....thats where the new beginnings come out of in essence....but taurus is still in the 12th so there still a lot of culmination needs to be completed during this life ....Ac is also taurus so some aspect of it already culminated and a new way of relating to oneself can evolve in this life....removing the illusions regarding others what they mean to a soul will result in a new way of the inner relationship to oneself and necessarily so....

bc venus is the ruler of taurus, which is in pisces- square neptuen in 7th?

The illusion is twofold: one side is to remove any personal identification with the divine so to speak...to arrive to equaltiy and objectivity...so not to place more importance to one's life and one's ability to give to others or being the 'special one' etc. than one actually is...just one out of many totally equal to others...the other side is to remove the guilt that affected the soul and distorted it's perception of reality...capr. on the 9th mercury there....


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 10, 2010, 05:19 AM
(http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=astro_24gw_310_aris_friend_201019_ho.46051.8836.gif&res=100&va=&cid=3edfileWRIC6d-u1003984635)

I tried to insert the chart from astrodients but doesn't seem to work....here is the address with the important asteroids that I talk about below:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=3edfileWRIC6d-u1003984635&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=310&nho2=302&btyp=24&mth=gw&sday=9&smon=1&syr=2010&hsy=6&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&add=18&add=19&add=20&add=22&add=12&add=13&add=14&add=15&asp=1&ast=1930%2C55%2C30%2C1181


Hi Ari and All,


a few things I wanted to add for consideration; pallas in 12th is conj to urania (which has a somewhat similar nature to uranus in way of LIBERATION from something but without the highly traumatising factor of uranus) so urania is 22 taurus 38, meaning pallas is balsamic conj. to it...what may this configuration suggest? Given the fact that it is 12th house (some illusions) and ruled by 10th pisces venus? (more illusions) Also given the fact that pallas correlates to mental virtue ..an aspect of the feminine that according to the myth ‘jumped out in full armour from zeus’ head’....
pallas as such is an aspect of the femine that is ALREADY influenced by a patriachal order....

About the feminine issues it is Lilith (asteroid) which signifies in any chart the original NATURE of the soul's feminine principle; this falls to 9 sag 31 so it is alas it is conj. to neptune!...so that’s where the problem actually started....
It is a new conj. in the chart so the soul has come through a tremendous culmination and attempting to start a new chapter in this regard....

In short this symbol, asteroid Lilith correlates to the soul's original feminine principle BEFORE the patriarchal distortion started on our world....it also signifies how the soul reacted to this transition at the first place! (simply because the underlying issue about the transition is putting the feminine aspect down as inferior, so it has been cast out of equality)....it doesn't matter which gender we are manifesting through in any life we all have feminine and masculine aspects within ...so how the soul reacted to the transition relative to its own feminine aspect tells the story about that particular soul during the transition time....and what we see here? This symbol is conj. to neptune.....so I leave it to you guys to work this out what may happened here lilith conj. neptune in 7th in sag.....what kind of beliefs, illusions and delusions may be a part of this pic?? That’ was the beginning....


Now after this there is the absolute distortion periods of the patriarchy on planet earth for many thousands of years....what happened is that with no exception all souls got wounded, distorted and confused in some ways....what this caused to our feminine principle is symbolised by a second lilith symbol called the ‘dark moon’ or ’dark moon lilith’  symbol....it is debated where this actually falls in the chart there are at least two different sets of ephemeries.....right now I wouldn't even want to pay much attention to that for what it represents is the PEAK of the distortion relative to our femine principle relative to patriarchy..(it actually falls to 5th, virgo..so the very service the soul felt it was it's destiny to fulfil) .....however the truth is that this distortion hasn’t only affected out feminine principle it affected our souls in all aspects...so actually the WHOLE chart is the reflection of that......for each one of us....what's important in this respect is the third symbol of Lilith, which is the Black Moon Lilith.....for that is the RESOLUTION symbol of our own femine principle....how we can recover from the distortion of and heal the feminine principle within us......in this chart this symbol falls in  26 libra 43, so right on the 6th house cusp!


Highlighting and putting what I already said about the 6th house libra lessons into a deeper and more crucial evolutionary context....for the soul to HEAL it's own feminine aspect the lesson of discrimination is of utmost importance; in this respect it has to do with learning TRUE equality and relativity being able to perceive other people's reality as it really is and  according to that (via a thorough analysis of who comes from what ACTUAL reality!) learning to improve the soul’s own ways of RELATING to others....one of the issue with libra 6th house is that certain relationships have been denied avoided...particularly those that DIDN’’T SERVE the whatever illusions that the soul had .....SO INSTEAD OF RELATING TO ALL IN AN EQUAL LEVEL those that were selected out (7th cusp is scorpio, selection according to one’s unconscious motivations and intentions by way of the natal pluto- impulse so repulsion from those who doesn’t serve the unconscious pluto security needs....and it is exactly THIS selection process how lucifer affected this soul) were the ones that appeared to serve the soul’s needs and all the illusions were projected onto them....yet in fact most of them actually undermined the soul....without the soul knowing it...7th neptune in sag....
We need to remember that the 7th house as well as the 3rd has a lot to do with APPEARENCE....

There is another important thing we havent discussed yet: vesta conj. to venus in pisces...the kind of social role the soul played under total illusions....it has to do with another aspect of leo/5th house: the soul's CHILDREN...guess who wer the first who undermind, deluded and betrayed the soul at the first place?  her own children particularly her sons...who took over during the patriarcy and made her believe she was serving the 'right' purpose..the divine purpose.....vesta has to do with the sexual initiation of young males including one's own sons.....so that's how evil 'got in' at the first place....of course the soul loved them and believed them....it would be a long long story to reveal the whole evolutionary process of this soul but I think this bit wil shed light to the most important elements....how it started and what contributed to the totally illusionary reality and the incrdible traumas it lead to...uranus in 5th complete and absoute heartbreak via the people the soul loved most............

So in short there is a need to sort all this out and to heal from it all and that is the overall evolutionary task - within which there is the task to heal and recover it's true femine principle.....

Hope this adds to the understanding of this chart ?

Blessings,
Lia



Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 10, 2010, 06:09 AM
Hi Lucius,

Wanted to say you have some real good insights!
Thanks very much for your contribution; don't worry if it is short or long (that just depends on our 3rd house, how it will 'appear') the content you put in is very worthwhile. So keep on going!


Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 10, 2010, 08:39 AM
Hi Ari,

Great to see that you'd put a good effort into understanding this chart!
Good work - I will come back to your specific questions a bit later I have to do something else now; but will come back and answer in details.


Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 10, 2010, 07:06 PM
Quote
I'll put a couple more pennies into the cup here although others are using much more energy, thought & time.  So, with the Pallas, 12th, Taurus and Venus 10th, pisces I think we see clearly the issues of her innate sense of spirit & self & values and those of the patriarchy & general consensus conditioning and her desire to get back to her own root and from there Spirit.  I do see that she may have done what she needed or thought she needed to do to survive - she danced to a tune, someone else's, so to speak - she can be very good at filling other's projections & expectations...I see someone who could be a the 'darling' and invested herself emotionally in that although she was conscious of a lie.  This, I think, ties into the myth of Pallas - she sprung from her father's head!  She  is in cahoots with the masculine - which, of course, isn't necessarily negative at all, but I see this tying into surviving and adapting via playing a certain type of patriarchal-sanctioned role that was false to her inner truth.  So, that's what I'd say to that.

Thanks lucius. you know im realizing that i dont really understand pallas to begin with. I've heard jwg speak of it as where we are channeling from a higher source- but I dont comprehend this much. perhaps you or someone will elaborate on how to understand this signature from the perspective of pallas?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lucius on Jan 11, 2010, 09:01 AM
Lia - I have Pisces on 3rd, so that explains that!

Ari - there was another thread on asteroids that I found helpful.  I forgot about the correlation between Pallas and thought 'seeding'.  That makes sense with the myth, too.  I would gather that Pallas in an aspect with Lucifer NN that we're seeing the need for her to distinguish between good & evil, that evil could use this capability as well as good, that her intentions must be clear (which can be difficult given the nature of the issue).  Needing to discriminate between what is truly an ego-less message to help someone, or real beneficial messages and that which is merely her subconscious & unconscious mind at play with all the dangerous projections, and lack of healthy boundaries, etc.  Clearly she's bringing these issues from the past into this life.  If she is moving into the 2nd spiritual these issues are extremely important - it's this stage where evil really starts to put the pressure on in reaction to the increasing openess and awareness of Spirit.  The differences between Ego, Soul & Spirit will be 'highlighted' as she learns how to 'use' her ego in relation to Soul and allows her soul to be guided purely via Spirit.  She's got some work there however!  Hope that helps!


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 11, 2010, 03:04 PM
Hi Ari and all,


So if I understand this correctly. Virgo being on the cusp of her fifth house- the ruler of which will DEFINE for us how she has sought to impact a special purpose,  

Yes. The signs tells the 'what way' and the ruler the 'how'

....and also how the issues of natal pluto lucifer were experienced. The underlying approach was one of service, which was done through TEACHING. In this case it is mercury in capricorn in the 9th= social contribution relative to her own personal discovery of natural law. And so the need to be liked and appreciated was linked to how socially credible and responsible she was as a teacher.

YES. However NOT necessarily in a way as we today understand ‘teaching’. One of the major role the soul fulfilled in the past and has given a social role of the time is connected to 9th capr AND venus/vesta in 10th. The soul was TEACHING young males how to be a male how to use their sexual energy correctly. Vesta, sexual teacher which was a highly important social role. This then of course being distorted by the patriarchy progressively later on. There was a lot of verbal teaching as well about the GENDER ROLES that the soul at that time fulfilled.

The original unconscious identification with a special goddess given purpose and in a sense with the divine itself came from this time at the first place. And at that time it was RIGHT and socially PURPOSEFUL. It was done in a socially responsible way. Here we of course connect the symbols with pluto in libra in 5th to the above.

So this was the original natural social role the soul fulfilled before the patriarchy and from here the progressive distortion affected both society and the laws/norms upon which it operated and of course all this affected the soul.
Every chart signifies both; the soul’s natural ability and its past relative to natural society (this also is symbolised by capr. saturn) and of course the actual reality of the patriarchal distortion is also reflected in each chart. So in our mind’s eye so to speak we need to see both layers in each chart. What is the natural gift and purpose and what happened via the patriarchal distortion?

Relative to capr. one’s ability to consider the social whole the needs of a social unit so to be responsible for others and oneself in a social way is WHAT has been most distorted of course. By way of distorting, turning society and it’s rules upside down.
This is really important to remember whenever we examine capr. in any chart.
Individuals who had some sort of socially important role before the patriarchy, thus people respected them and listened to them were the ones that has been most attacked of course either overtly or covertly.
This chart tells the story of the covert attack.

Confuse the soul’s sense of truth by way of exploiting it’s inclination to serve the social whole and progressively convince the soul that this or that is good for society and this or that what others need from the soul. Distort its human weakness (the need for recognition, positive feedback, love, acceptance etc.) and evil sits in. The original inclination to serve the goddess and be one of the living, flesh and blood priestesses have been distorted to be the greek/roman consort, the sacred prostitute who eventually served those men who’s purposes brought havoc to the larger society. At that time the soul has already been totally alienated from the larger social whole and repressed it’s intuition. So the false living, the living a lie has started...

so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th,
 

 I guess you meant that neptune is ruled by jup in 8th? As to illusions about intimacy? Yes, and that is because orignally the soul fulfilled a natural teaching role via intimacy, sexuality. Therefore it was way easy to project this onto relationships which had absolutely nothing to do with natural law anymore.

so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th, conj lucifer which itself is ruled by mercury in cap in the 9th- can we then conclude that she her patterns has been to "help" people on a "professional" level by being a mentor- offering guidance and counsel to others as a way to be respected- and thus to fulfill the desire nature to be liked? would it make sense to say that she would create an IMMENSE degree of popularity for herself as a result of this pattern?


I think there is some confusions here...the rulers are not right...
Only the house cusp is ruled by merc. but pluto and lucifer ruled by venus in 10th. So while there is an overall original service desire by way of the 5th, pluto in it is libra. So from service the 5th house pluto actually signifies co-dependency and enmeshment in relationship. Yes it is important to see how this started. But where pluto is libra and we need to understand it there with lucifer conj.


The original aim of the soul has been distorted, the soul became the greek/roman consort/patner etc. enmeshed with people who had a special social role at that time.....living in a bubble (5th house) trying to believe it is ’right’ suppressing it’s intuition and disconnecting from its true self.....living a lie...2nd house is gemini ruled by merc: the valuesystem the soul has is changeable. Depending on what others/society told was true....trying to believe it was....deep within having some knowledge that there is something wrong....yet trying to suppress it debate it via INNER left brain debate .....hanging on to the illusion.....until a blow.....Yes survival was one of the issues here but the major issue was the venus in 10th in pisces; delusions abut the social reality and the soul’s role....As as what the ’divine’ wants what is true and what is accepted from the soul by society....10th pisces issues.... as society changed so the way to survive changed and the soul’s valuesystem changed....and inwardly (9th house) feeling guilty silently because of it....which lead to ever further confusion....


I see that you address this in the next paragraph- re: religious guilt. also, is that at all connected to natal mercury semi square neptune?



Yes. As the ages gone by different concepts and philosophical/ religious ideas came all of them increasingly patriarchal with less and less remains of the original perception of the divine during the matriarchal time..yet the impulse with the  pisces venus in 10th and virgo 5th cusp relative to her evo. cond. as you said in the spir. cond. the soul still wants to serve god...no matter how mistaken the desire is true....so leading to adopting (merc.) to the whatever age philosophical religious concepts..9th capr.

Within this the soul felt ashamed for what it was thinking time to time and suppressed it.....yet some of those thoughts were actually her own intuition....(mercury sq. uranus-trying to awaken the soul to see the objective reality, saturn retro- internalisation and liberation impulse, you rightly said it points to uranus.
Getting ever more confused and traumatised because the soul alienated from it‘s own inner sense of truth....enduring relationships some of them were abusive and violent and highly undermining.....


Cont.


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 11, 2010, 03:49 PM
i think i understand this. her mercury, which we established has been crucial in how she served as a teacher mentor in society (cap in the 9th), and thusly gained respect (ruler of 5th house pluto lucifer conjunction in libra- influence by evil via the need to be liked), squaring uranus which is also in the 5th indicates that at some point the attempt to "cover up" her uniqueness and please anyone backfired- as certain individuals felt who she was to be wrong. they thus persecuted her for who she was. this was very much a trauma for her. Is this correct?


In essence yes. Uranus in itself is such a sudden trauma which comes in the 5th house totally unexpected. Persecution also happened usually after the blow...the soul has been scapegoated whenever it attempted to be true to itself (capr. 9th) it was made WRONG ...then persecution happened of course by way of neptune in 7th and venus in 10th....the soul was exciled cast out (aq. sun in 9th) WHENEVER it made an attempt to recover itself ...sun conj. n.node shows the incredible GREAT efforts this soul has made prior to the current life. It made a leap in its evolution and the efforts need to continue in this life.

It has many gifts despite the illusions and the codependency pattern; evil of course trying to undermine it's weaknessess...tha't why it needs to be a group of one if that's what it takes...being able to see oneself and others objectively and apply it's individual will independent of anybody (ppp) chiron is conj. to ppp...the soul has been deeply wounded in the past and the reason was not seeing objectively and allowing others to influence her sense of truth. So coming back to natural law and her own natural self is the way...this also means a lot of learning recovering the truth about society as a whole, so that she can totally objectify her own soul story within the story of the earth (capr. 9th cusp. aq. n.node and sun)

Writing of course would be a very good way to do this, virgo 5th, 9th merc. if she can recover the whole story ( 9th house story teller) of her own individual progress through time and her liberation (uranus) from the mistakes, confusions etc. through the ages (capr) she could contribute something really worthwhile that can help liberate and individuate others too ppp in 11th aries and chiron there...which ignites the lucifer pp. so that the soul's original desire to be perceived as special for the service it delivers so for something that it truly earns (thats capr.!) could be fulfilled and lucifer turned to its adversary as a bearer of light......

Hope this makes sense?

Blessings,
Lia.


Title: Getting Lucifer into Solar Fire
Post by: Upasika on Jan 12, 2010, 10:59 PM
Hi Ari,

I have got Lucifer into Solar Fire and I can share with you how I did this. However I'm not sure if it will work for all combinations of operating system and Solar Fire versions. I've got a PC with Vista SP1 as the operating system, and running Solar Fire v 7.0.10

It’s a bit of a journey so I’ll try to make the explanations as clear and detailed as possible. Also I’m not sure at what level your (or anyone else’s) computer skills and/or familiarity with Solar Fire is so I wont assume too much, so if it seems tediously overdone with detail please excuse me – but at least this way if someone who is not too familiar with Solar Fire also tries to use these explanations it might be helpful for them if I’ve spelt everything out explicitly.

Once done though it works like a treat. It does look long winded, but once you know how to do this, the whole operation only takes 3 minutes or so.

If you have any difficulties with the process just let me know and I'll try and help you or anyone else through it.

Before you or anyone else gets into this, I'd like to mention that the last step (step 6) involves using the Wheel Designer in Solar Fire, so I suggest if you aren't familiar with doing this or aren't reasonably confident with computers generally, you get someone local who is to help you do it, rather than attempting it alone with only these guideline instructions.

*******************************************

1a) Click on the link below, or paste this link into your browser and then hit the Enter (or Return) key on the keypad to open the Astrodienst FTP site where downloads are made from...

ftp://ftp.astro.ch/pub/swisseph/ephemeris_files/ast1 (ftp://ftp.astro.ch/pub/swisseph/ephemeris_files/ast1)


This opens the directory on the site that has the Lucifer asteroid ephemeris file in it.

1b) Scan down the list of files until you see the file: se01930s.se1   

(It will probably have a date of 09/29/2006 12:00a.m. and a file size of 43,583
BTW ... 1930 is the asteroid number for Lucifer, just in case this is handy to know.
Also, if you have trouble downloading this file I can always email it to you directly)

2) Click on this file and a dialog box should open asking whether to open or save this file. You want to save it to a folder on your hard drive so click on Save, and select a folder to save it to. Make sure the "Save as Type" text field underneath the filename text field is showing "SE1 file", then click the Save button again.

3) Once you've got the file into a folder on your PC, then you need to move or copy it to the following folder where Solar Fire stores its ephemeris files:

C:\Program Files\Common Files\Esoteric Technologies\SwissEph


4) Now that the file is in the Solar Fire system you can setup Solar Fire to include this in your charts etc.

4a) Open Solar Fire and click on the "Chart Options" menu, then click on the "Files" menu option.

4b) When a submenu appears click on the "Asteroids file" submenu option. This opens the File Management dialog box showing all your asteroid files.

4c) Click on any existing file to highlight it, or create a new one and once created click on it to highlight it, then click on the "Edit" button which will open the file. This will open another dialog box that allows you to select which asteroids you want included in this file.

4d) In the dialog box in the top right hand corner make sure the "Swiss Ephemeris" option is selected by clicking on it. You will also notice that there are two large lists of "Selected Asteroids" and "Available Asteroids" further down.

4e) Now look in the column of Available Asteroids and you should see Lucifer 1930 in it. By just clicking on it, it will automatically transfer itself to the Selected Asteroids column.

4f) Click on the "Save" button. You'll now be back at the File Management dialog box, and the file you were just editing should still be highlighted, so now click on the "Select" button to make that the current asteroid file for use in Solar Fire. Doing this will also close that dialog box as well.

5) To get Lucifer to show up in chart the first thing you need to do is to add it to an "Extra Ring Points" file.
Depending on whether you want Lucifer to be part of a normal chart display so that it appears just the like the other planets and points in a chart wheel, or whether you want to see many other asteriods and points (such as the north and south nodes of all the planets) in the chart display, you would setup different "Extra Ring Points" files for these two different scenarios.

The reason for this is that the chart wheel can quickly become very cluttered if you include too many extra points in the wheel where the planets etc are normally displayed.

For now, I'll explain how to setup a file so that only Lucifer is showing as an extra point in your charts along with the normal planets. (The one drawback with this method of displaying extra points in the same ring as the normal planets etc, is that SolarFire doesn’t space the glyph out to make room for it when its very close to another point in the chart. However I don’t find that a major problem. If you do then you can create an extra ring outside the main chart ring in a wheel design and put the extra points in that. But that’s another matter)

5a) Click on the "Chart Options" menu, then click on the "Extra Ring Points" menu option. This opens the File Managemnent dialog box showing all your Extra Ring Points files.

5b) Click on the "Create" button to create a new file. Give the new file a name eg "Lucifer", and click OK. Now your new file should be highlighted in the list of Extra Ring Points files.

5c) Click on the "Edit" button to edit the new file. This will open a dialog box where you can select what extra points you want in your file.

5d) On the right hand side of the dialog box where it says "Point Type" click on "Asteroid".

5e) Underneath the list of Point Type options is a button labelled "Select File..." - click on this and then in the Asteroids dialog box that opens up click on the Asteroid file that you included Lucifer in, in step 4, then click on the "Select" button.

5f) Look in the list of "Available Points" until you find Lucifer, then click on it to highlight it. Then click on the "<-Add" button below the list of Available Points. This will add Lucifer to the "Selected Points" list.

5g) Make sure Lucifer in the "Selected Points" list is highlighted (click on it if it isn't), then you can type in the "Glyph" text box at the bottom left of the dialog box the symbol you want to describe Lucifer in the chart wheel. (I just typed "Luc").

5h) Click on the "Save" button and the dialog box will close. You'll now be back at the File Management dialog box for Extra Ring Points.

The new file you've just created and added Lucifer to should still be highlighted (click on it if it isn't), so now you just need to click on the "Select" button. This will now be the current extra ring points file for use in Solar Fire.

6) We're almost there! One step to go and Lucifer will automatically display in your charts.

Now you need to design a chart wheel style to include extra ring points in it. You can create a new wheel style from scratch, or simply modify one you currently use. If you haven't created wheel styles before I suggest you just modify one you use. For now I'll explain how to modify a wheel style that you currently use.
Some care is needed with this part as it will permanently alter your currently default wheel style, and if something isn't done right then it may be hard to get it back unless you know how. So I'll put screen shots in here to assist. However, as with all of this, I cannot control what happens when you modify your wheel style so I suggest if you aren't familiar with doing this or aren't reasonably confident with computers generally you get someone local who is, to help you do it.

6a) Double click on a “single” chart in the Calculated Charts list on the main screen to display it in the View Chart window. This will display using your currently default wheel style on your currently default Page for a uniwheel chart.

6b) You now want to edit this wheel style, so click on the "Wheel Style" button on the right hand side of the window near the Quit button. This will open the File Management dialog box for Wheel Designs. Your currently default wheel design should automatically be highlighted.

(We are going to modify this wheel design, so it may be a good idea to note down the file name  - i.e. the one that is highlighted in the File Management dialog box. Even better would be to make a copy of it, just in case you want to revert back to the original design of that file later. Briefly … to do this make sure you do write down the highlighted filename NOW. Then click on the ”Copy” button and write “backup” or something similar in between the existing filename and the “.WH1” extension. Now click on the “Save” button. You will then be back at the File Management dialog box. IMPORTANT: now click on the filename in the list that you originally wrote down, to highlight it.)

6c) Click on the "Edit" button and the Wheel Designer window will open. If it isn't full screen it may be useful to have it that way, in which case click the little black square (the middle button of the 3 buttons) at the very top right of the window.
The window should look similar to this...

 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4270809480_ed4d8ee8ca_o.jpg)

This is showing Solar Fire’s default single chart wheel style (a uniwheel) that it ships with. Of course you may see a different looking wheel depending on which wheel style you have selected as your default single chart style in Preferences/Edit Settings.

6d) On the right hand side of the window where it says “General Properties” click on the black downwards pointing triangle to the right of the text box.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4270065149_75ccc265e0_o.jpg)
 
6e) When you do this a drop down menu will open. Click on “Chart 1 Planets”, which will select it.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2706/4270809512_cef1deaac7_o.jpg)
 

You will then see all the properties that can be set for the chart’s planets.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4270065315_8b128eb478_o.jpg)
 

6f) Now you need a pen and paper. Make a note of the settings for all these properties. The property is in the left column, and the setting for it is in the right column.
To see the setting for the “Tick Width” property simply click on the property i.e. click on the row that says “Tick Width” and the numerical setting for it will be displayed in the top text box, just under where it says “Chart 1 Planets”. If you are in doubt about what the setting for it is, note it down as a “2”, which is a reasonably good setting for a tick width.

6g)  Now on the right hand side of the window where it says “Chart 1 Planets” click on the black downwards pointing triangle to the right of the text box.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4056/4270863658_0aa19cdee2_o.jpg)
 
6h) When you do this a drop down menu will open. Underneath Chart 1 Planets in the menu click on “ – Chart 1 Extra Ring Points”, which will select it.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2799/4270809426_ff8a6aa584_o.jpg)
 
You will then see all the properties that can be set for the chart’s extra ring points

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2727/4270065179_ae4fb9f529_o.jpg)
 

6i) You now need to set all these properties to the same values each of these properties had for Chart 1 Planets that you wrote down in step 6f.
To do this you set each property one at a time. First you click on the property, which will display it’s setting in the text box that is underneath where it says “ – Chart 1 Extra Ring Points” and above the list of properties

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2789/4270065365_6dbf130cfc_o.jpg)
 

As I’ve said just above, the existing setting for the property that is currently highlighted (i.e that you have just clicked on) is displayed in the text box shown by the red arrow. All you need to do now is look at your notes and find the property that is the same as the one you have highlighted, and enter the setting for it (e.g. 3, 14.25, False etc)  in this text box, overwriting what is initially showing there, then press the “Enter” key on the keyboard. Now that property is set with it’s new value, and you can move on to the next property and set that, and so on.

6j) When you have finished doing this click on the File menu (top left hand corner), then click on the menu option “Save”, then the “OK” button in the message that says the file has just been saved. Then click on the File menu again, then the “Exit” menu option to close the Wheel Designer window.

6k) You will now be back at the File Management dialog box for Wheel Designs, where the wheel design you have just edited should still be highlighted. Click on the “Select” button to close this dialog box.
Now you should be back at the View Chart window, looking at the chart you displayed initially. Nothing will have changed with this chart.

6l) Now click on the “Redraw” button, and if all has gone well, you should see Lucifer displayed along with the planets in the chart. It will have the letters that you gave it as a glyph in step 5g. If you didn’t do that it will possibly be called “a1”.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4270199771_9e35e6a77d_o.jpg)


That’s it. With these settings, from now on Lucifer should be displayed in all your single wheel charts that you display by double-clicking on them in the Calculated Charts list. It won’t display in biwheels etc unless you modify your default biwheel design to include extra ring points like we did for your default uniwheel design.

Hopefully this will be handy.
Upasika














Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Rad on Jan 13, 2010, 11:20 AM
Upasika

 Want to thank you for taking the time and effort that you have to post all that information. Thanks for taking the time that you have to do this.

 God Bless,

 Rad


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Upasika on Jan 13, 2010, 03:50 PM
Upasika

 Want to thank you for taking the time and effort that you have to post all that information. Thanks for taking the time that you have to do this.

 God Bless,

 Rad

Thanks Rad, it's a pleasure. I became aware of this site last year sometime and in my spare time have been trying to absorb all the great posts and discussions to catch up on it all, but haven't quite managed to do that as everyone contributing is so prolific ! While I've been a student of EA for about 7 years or so now needless to say I have learnt a great deal simply by reading.

I have had some questions arise from time to time and when I've digested more of the wealth of understanding that is already on the site will get involved in some of the threads, which I'm looking forward to.

For quite a few years I used to be the importer and distributor for Solar Fire into New Zealand, and when I saw no-one had answered Ari's question re Solar Fire I thought it might be helpful to make the post. And it was a pleasure, I have learnt so much from all the time everyone else has been putting in, and really appreciate the high quality and quantity of understanding that you, Steve, Deva, and all the others have contributed, its simply a blessing this is available.

So thanks to everyone else here on the site for all your time and effort and valuable contributions, I'm very grateful.

Upasika


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 13, 2010, 05:26 PM
Upasika! Thank you for such a gift. I cant wait to follow your instructions. FYI everyone, it seems that this method, will allow for ANY asteroid to be included in solar fire.

Perhaps that information can be re-posted by an administrator in the misc forum...

Quote
Ari - there was another thread on asteroids that I found helpful.  I forgot about the correlation between Pallas and thought 'seeding'.  That makes sense with the myth, too.  I would gather that Pallas in an aspect with Lucifer NN that we're seeing the need for her to distinguish between good & evil, that evil could use this capability as well as good, that her intentions must be clear (which can be difficult given the nature of the issue).  Needing to discriminate between what is truly an ego-less message to help someone, or real beneficial messages and that which is merely her subconscious & unconscious mind at play with all the dangerous projections, and lack of healthy boundaries, etc.  Clearly she's bringing these issues from the past into this life.  If she is moving into the 2nd spiritual these issues are extremely important - it's this stage where evil really starts to put the pressure on in reaction to the increasing openess and awareness of Spirit.  The differences between Ego, Soul & Spirit will be 'highlighted' as she learns how to 'use' her ego in relation to Soul and allows her soul to be guided purely via Spirit.  She's got some work there however!  Hope that helps!

Thanks for reminding me about that thread. I'll read up on it:
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,74.0.html (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,74.0.html)

Quote
so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th, conj lucifer which itself is ruled by mercury in cap in the 9th- can we then conclude that she her patterns has been to "help" people on a "professional" level by being a mentor- offering guidance and counsel to others as a way to be respected- and thus to fulfill the desire nature to be liked? would it make sense to say that she would create an IMMENSE degree of popularity for herself as a result of this pattern?

I think there is some confusions here...the rulers are not right...

whoops, in those statements, i meant to refer to the ruler of the house cusp of the planets, not the planets them self.

Quote
a few things I wanted to add for consideration; pallas in 12th is conj to urania (which has a somewhat similar nature to uranus in way of LIBERATION from something but without the highly traumatising factor of uranus) so urania is 22 taurus 38, meaning pallas is balsamic conj. to it...what may this configuration suggest? Given the fact that it is 12th house (some illusions) and ruled by 10th pisces venus? (more illusions) Also given the fact that pallas correlates to mental virtue ..an aspect of the feminine that according to the myth ‘jumped out in full armour from zeus’ head’....
pallas as such is an aspect of the femine that is ALREADY influenced by a patriachal order....

About the feminine issues it is Lilith (asteroid) which signifies in any chart the original NATURE of the soul's feminine principle; this falls to 9 sag 31 so it is alas it is conj. to neptune!...so that’s where the problem actually started....
It is a new conj. in the chart so the soul has come through a tremendous culmination and attempting to start a new chapter in this regard....

In short this symbol, asteroid Lilith correlates to the soul's original feminine principle BEFORE the patriarchal distortion started on our world....it also signifies how the soul reacted to this transition at the first place! (simply because the underlying issue about the transition is putting the feminine aspect down as inferior, so it has been cast out of equality)....it doesn't matter which gender we are manifesting through in any life we all have feminine and masculine aspects within ...so how the soul reacted to the transition relative to its own feminine aspect tells the story about that particular soul during the transition time....and what we see here? This symbol is conj. to neptune.....so I leave it to you guys to work this out what may happened here lilith conj. neptune in 7th in sag.....what kind of beliefs, illusions and delusions may be a part of this pic?? That’ was the beginning....


Now after this there is the absolute distortion periods of the patriarchy on planet earth for many thousands of years....what happened is that with no exception all souls got wounded, distorted and confused in some ways....what this caused to our feminine principle is symbolised by a second lilith symbol called the ‘dark moon’ or ’dark moon lilith’  symbol....it is debated where this actually falls in the chart there are at least two different sets of ephemeries.....right now I wouldn't even want to pay much attention to that for what it represents is the PEAK of the distortion relative to our femine principle relative to patriarchy..(it actually falls to 5th, virgo..so the very service the soul felt it was it's destiny to fulfil) .....however the truth is that this distortion hasn’t only affected out feminine principle it affected our souls in all aspects...so actually the WHOLE chart is the reflection of that......for each one of us....what's important in this respect is the third symbol of Lilith, which is the Black Moon Lilith.....for that is the RESOLUTION symbol of our own femine principle....how we can recover from the distortion of and heal the feminine principle within us......in this chart this symbol falls in  26 libra 43, so right on the 6th house cusp!


Highlighting and putting what I already said about the 6th house libra lessons into a deeper and more crucial evolutionary context....for the soul to HEAL it's own feminine aspect the lesson of discrimination is of utmost importance; in this respect it has to do with learning TRUE equality and relativity being able to perceive other people's reality as it really is and  according to that (via a thorough analysis of who comes from what ACTUAL reality!) learning to improve the soul’s own ways of RELATING to others....one of the issue with libra 6th house is that certain relationships have been denied avoided...particularly those that DIDN’’T SERVE the whatever illusions that the soul had .....SO INSTEAD OF RELATING TO ALL IN AN EQUAL LEVEL those that were selected out (7th cusp is scorpio, selection according to one’s unconscious motivations and intentions by way of the natal pluto- impulse so repulsion from those who doesn’t serve the unconscious pluto security needs....and it is exactly THIS selection process how lucifer affected this soul) were the ones that appeared to serve the soul’s needs and all the illusions were projected onto them....yet in fact most of them actually undermined the soul....without the soul knowing it...7th neptune in sag....
We need to remember that the 7th house as well as the 3rd has a lot to do with APPEARENCE....

So in short there is a need to sort all this out and to heal from it all and that is the overall evolutionary task - within which there is the task to heal and recover it's true femine principle.....

Hope this adds to the understanding of this chart ?

Blessings,
Lia

Lia, that was SOOO enlightening, thanks for sharing that.

Do you say "it all started with the lilith neptune conjunction" bc of what lilith innately symoblizes (the original manifestion of the feminine archetype before it was distorted?)
And does the dark moon lilith qualify the nature of the distortion? How do we read the two together in terms of understand the soul's story?

The ability for her to be discerning to begin with seems contingent on PPP, which itself is conj Chiron- the need to be utterly detached, and in fact vulnerable in being different than others, in doing so.
This, activated through her north node in Aquarius in the 9th which is ruled by Uranus in libra in the 5th. To express her gifts no matter what. Also, She's got mars in aries in the 11th new phase conjunction to that Chiron- so yet another implication that she has recently come to a great resolution in breaking free from who she is projected to be by others- and she is meant to continue on that journey of being a group of one.

Quote
Writing of course would be a very good way to do this, virgo 5th, 9th merc. if she can recover the whole story ( 9th house story teller) of her own individual progress through time and her liberation (uranus) from the mistakes, confusions etc. through the ages (capr) she could contribute something really worthwhile that can help liberate and individuate others too ppp in 11th aries and chiron there...which ignites the lucifer pp. so that the soul's original desire to be perceived as special for the service it delivers so for something that it truly earns (thats capr.!) could be fulfilled and lucifer turned to its adversary as a bearer of light......

Also, Uranus is ruler of the lunar north node and the NN of Uranus is in Gemini, conj moon in the 1st. So eventually, she'll be a poster child of spirit's work through writing from HER OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Is this a true assessment? What else can we say about the nn of uranus conj moon in Gemini? It feels like telling her own story is very key here. And we can say that her destiny takes her there? And travel/teaching mentoring- being as mercury, the ruler of Gemini is in Capricorn in the 9th.
We are writing all of this about her- and look where her Mercury is- 20 degrees Capricorn, a current hot spot for the evolution of consciousness! (transits of nn and everything else in cap)

Quote
There is another important thing we havent discussed yet: vesta conj. to venus in pisces...the kind of social role the soul played under total illusions....it has to do with another aspect of leo/5th house: the soul's CHILDREN...guess who wer the first who undermind, deluded and betrayed the soul at the first place?  her own children particularly her sons...who took over during the patriarcy and made her believe she was serving the 'right' purpose..the divine purpose.....vesta has to do with the sexual initiation of young males including one's own sons.....so that's how evil 'got in' at the first place....of course the soul loved them and believed them....it would be a long long story to reveal the whole evolutionary process of this soul but I think this bit wil shed light to the most important elements....how it started and what contributed to the totally illusionary reality and the incrdible traumas it lead to...uranus in 5th complete and absoute heartbreak via the people the soul loved most............

Woa, this is interesting. Is this why you see there was an original non discerning trust (original lilith conj neputne- resolution lilith on 6th house libra cusp) that was disillusioned by her own children she was serving (black moon in virgo in 5th) which effected her relationship for her natural role as a woman, and her natural wisdom (ruled by mercury in capricorn)?
The 6th house cusp being ruled by Venus which is in Pisces in the 10th, conj vesta- squaring Neptune in the 7th. Venus is also the ruler of Pluto Lucifer. So is this where you are able to put her son's in the picture?

Can we also then say that in the past, her father also sought to undermine her power? And that there was intense male jealousy? That the original influence from evil also came from her father? In this lifetime- even though her current father still thinks she shouldn't be such a heathen, he did have a realization not too long ago that "my daughter is a profit!"



Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 13, 2010, 05:30 PM
I also have a general question about the 5th house Leo Sun archetype. Are we able to determine just through the chart what relationship she and her current life father had in the past? It seems like we often incarnate playing different roles with each other. Would we have to look at his chart, synastry and composite in order to really know?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Upasika on Jan 13, 2010, 06:26 PM
Upasika! Thank you for such a gift. I cant wait to follow your instructions. FYI everyone, it seems that this method, will allow for ANY asteroid to be included in solar fire.

Hi Ari, thankyou, and yes you're right - any asteriod that Astrodienst has an ephemeris for can be downloaded into the Solar Fire system, and then would be available to display in charts and reports.

If you have any difficulty, or the instructions don't seem to be right or not work for you at any point, don't hesitate to let me know and I'm happy to try and help sort out any problems.


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 14, 2010, 01:00 AM
I also have a general question about the 5th house Leo Sun archetype. Are we able to determine just through the chart what relationship she and her current life father had in the past? It seems like we often incarnate playing different roles with each other. Would we have to look at his chart, synastry and composite in order to really know?

Ari,

Yes we're able to determine FROM HER OWN POINT OF VIEW meaning how she experienced it relative to her reality, but for the whole karmic/evolutionary picture we would need to see both charts....as for father the saturn/10th house/capr. archetypes are also important to study....
within the matriarchal culture there was no 'father' role as we know it today...children were raised on a communal basis and EVERYBODY SHARED the responsibility (capr.) for children.......of course the role is a patriarchal one....so is the nuclear family....


In short her current life father of course has a lot to do with the undermining and traumatising effects...pluti conj. lucifer in 5th ruled by venus pisces and aq. 10th cusp....one of the souls that affected the distortion through time......saturn conj. moon and venus in pisces....how this afected her self image moon, and the way she relates to herself  with confusion (venus) .....and the relationship karmicly of course connected to the whole story that is unfolding via her chart....she needs to liberate from effects of this relaltionship with the soul of her father, it represents  issues (amongst the many) that confused her sense of truth and her sense of resonsibility , i.e. 'what I really should be doing what not' etc. .......


Your points in the other post above are very good and right on!

Must go now ....won't have time for a while but will come back to answer your questions later .

Upisaka,

what a blessing to know that there are people like you!

Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Upasika on Jan 14, 2010, 01:35 AM
Upisaka,

what a blessing to know that there are people like you!

Blessings,
Lia

Thanks Lia, I feel so welcomed that its really heartwarming ... and am looking forward to getting more time to be able to be on here. 


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 16, 2010, 10:23 AM
Hi Upasika,  

you are more than welcome! Hope you'll have more time in the future to join in ...when you  have any question feel free to ask......someone will answer you I'm sure.....and I'd suggest to just ask the question as it arises in you.....don't put it aside and don't worry about if it is a 'stupid' question for there is NO stupid question when it comes from true curiosity/ intention to understand something......

So once again WELCOME to the EA community and thanks for your generous service about solar fire I'm sure there are many people who would have more questions about these 'technological mysteries' that are indeed above many of us - myself included! :-)  ::)


love and blessings,
Lia



Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 16, 2010, 01:31 PM

 Hi Ari,

Lia, that was SOOO enlightening, thanks for sharing that.  

Do you say "it all started with the lilith neptune conjunction" bc of what lilith innately symoblizes (the original manifestation of the feminine archetype before it was distorted?)  EXACTLY.
Meaning within natural society the soul was manifesting that feminine principle undistorted. Then as the transition came it become confused and ever more mislead because of the UNSUSPECTING affect of neptune conj. to it.

We need to remember that neptune is also the aspect of consciousness via which we are ‘connected’ to that which we call divine. What we perceive as somehow divine is the easiest way to develop illusions about.

We don’t really discriminate at that point we have a tendency to take it in and see the divine potential.....then that potential can be easily projected into the whatever reality that seems resonating to that what we perceive as divine...as whole and complete and it will always correlate to something that we value highly.....in this case it is relating to others (7th house) and seeing them as a 'field' to express AND experience divine (neptune) truth (sag) ...the feedback from others the way they related to the soul carried this archetype because of the soul's original role ....so indeed there is always but always TRUTH in the neptune symbol it is just that the quality and perception of this transcendent truth is missing MOST the ability to see it in the light of the whatever specific 'here and now' ....meaning we all unconsciously keep those highest values and ideals  in a very simple way within our consciousness and because of that inward simplicity without thinking about it discriminate about it etc. we keep it actually in a way that is UNRELATED to actual reality.... .we are doing it so totally unknowingly......


Expressing it another way: it is the symbol that correlates to the soul's HIGHEST POTENTIAL....but the problem with potential is that it is only a transcendent (so above time and space reality) god-given POTENTIAL ...not something that has been consciously developed within the time and space reality induced evolutionary process (that's what pluto refers to where the soul actually is within it's own evolution, what has been developed how etc. of course that will be relative to it's evolutionary condition and every symbol in the chart including neptune will be relative to that condition.) Within the spiritual state the issue is exactly that the neptune symbol will have some level of conscious activation....in the prior evolutionary state how neptune really plays out on an individual level is what the person values most without knowing it is somehow connected to the concept of what we call 'divine'....in other words it will be in a very simple way a symbol that actually means for a soul any soul what idealistically constitutes the elusive meaning of 'HAPPINESS'.  This elusive ideal of what we feel constitutes 'complete happiness' for us may never be acted on - but once we understand neptune in this way as a hidden symbol for that notion in any life in any chart it is amazing what we can add to our EA understanding.....

Does this make sense?
If not fully, don't worry I am in the process of writing some articles about neptune pisces and the 12th in this respect for it is a highly misunderstood symbol because of course it correlates to confusion too :-) When I'll have time to finish them  I'll post it in the EA blogs  here on the site..... then maybe take it further to develop a book which hopefully would help to place this symbol within our understanding of EA, within the evolutionary paradigm and within the journey of the soul. This chart is highly representative of both lucifer and neptune and so I thought it was important to explain a bit deeper about neptune in order to understand this soul’s journey through time and how her evolutionary condition reflects on the fact how the neptune/pisces/12th house symbolism played an important part in the soul's journey.


In this case as the original lilith conj. neptune, it is very clear that the soul's way of perceiving/experiencing the divine was very closely connected to how it viewed others and the relationships it formed...

All this was attached to the original role it played before teh patriarchy: I would say the soul was just entering to the 1st spiritual so the neptune symbol became highly important and of course the actualisation of that comes virgo like in the first spiritual, be of service as one’s field of self actualisation.

 This is exactly why it was very easy to fool the soul having in mind the fact that the first spiritual has the tendency to be spiritually ‘gulible’....to buy into what SEEMS in harmony with their perception of what the divine is or could be....so that it becomes a total illusion especially when there is manipulation applied in order to exploit their idealism.....

This is what happened of course and therefore it was easy to keep those ideals with no regards of the distortion of the actual reality around the soul....these ideals haven't changed while the way of how others related to the soul has and how the soul was expected to relate others fundamentally changed during the transition to the patriarchy. So the soul was trying to fulfil the 'same role' still being convinced that it is some sort of a divinely ordained service and it is actually easy to distort that with ulterior agenda. The actual reality was denied relative to the soul’s subjective, egocentric environment within which it was hanging on to those it loved and needed positive feedback from.....

Yet what that all meant created an upside down reality. Had nothing to do with what the soul originally intended; pluto ...what someting means is sag/jup/9th house. So the distortion of the truths and how the soul perceived them begun via it's tendency to have illusions and see the divine in the face of those it had close relationship to.....That’s why the libra 6th; apply discrimination and true balance instead of the illusion of balance....apply objectivity by way of understanding the relativity of any reality and any one person’s reality (including one’s own!) i.e. improve the downside of libra: projections and going to extremes....

The ability for her to be discerning to begin with seems contingent on PPP, which itself is conj Chiron- the need to be utterly detached, and in fact vulnerable in being different than others, in doing so.



YES. And it is because the high level of taking in and accepting the reality of those who were closest to the soul on a subjective level in the 5th house bubble essentially....yet imagining that to be a social service for the whole......being a divinely ordered service...to the point of projecting the 'divine meaning' onto them and becoming totally co-dependent, enmeshed in them, placing the highest value on that and their feedback.........

If we unconsciously project the divine into something we don't want to go against it, do we? So in essence this is where the problem started with projected illusions and the  merging on the soul level with what the soul thought was a true manifestation of something divine.....sag. neptune ruled by jup in 8th. With the additon of having the feedback of being perceived as 'special' in return.

 This, activated through her north node in Aquarius in the 9th which is ruled by Uranus in libra in the 5th. 
EXACTLY. Meaning she needs to liberate and objectify herself even from the very symbol that in essence connected to the soul’s perception of what is divine not because it isn’t true in essence of course the divine can be perceived by way of others but because it was projected as illusions and delusions without discrimination....without knowing and understanding the actual realitiy those others were coming from.....
So what seemed to be the highest value via a trick kept the soul entrapped (scorpio/pluto/8th) in relationships that progressively undermined the soul's original intention via distorting it's human weakness (pluto  conj. lucifer in  5th)

To express her gifts no matter what. Also, She's got mars in aries in the 11th new phase conjunction to that Chiron- so yet another implication that she has recently come to a great resolution in breaking free from who she is projected to be by others- and she is meant to continue on that journey of being a group of one.


Yes. Either, if the projections sounds POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE! That's very important for the positively SOUNDING feedback wasone of the greatest manipulative tools the soul got entrapped by......(5th house: 'oh, they love me they appreciate me and THIS AND THAT is what they want me to do or to be -so it must be right) Twisted positive feedback applied with the appearance of love appreciation etc. applied with ulterior agendas and deliberate manipulation directed to the center of one's subjective reality can be actually the one of the MOST affective ways to distort a soul, any soul!

So yes absolutely this is what the soul needs to recognise; her TRUE being is totally INDEPENDENT from how others may perceive her,  as 'good' or 'bad' or anything in between....at the end it doesn't matter.....in essence other people's perception of her is UP TO THEM and NOT UP TO HER....she needs to be detached from BOTH the positive and negative feedback and just to be who she is according to her inner truth, her inner self.....YES the soul is in the PROCESS of breaking free, it has done great work in this direction rediscovering her true self and with a far higher evolutionary level that the soul reached via the last several thousands years actualise it.....this work needs to continue, yeah to be a group of one and be able to perceive others and herself objectively....then those who really share the underlying values the soul represents and expresses in a new way (aries ppp in 11th!) will eventually group around the soul but not for the old reasons...it will be those who also want to break free from the whatever binding patterns of the past and want to understand themselves objectively....

Once that developed somewhere further up on her evolutionary journey she can be an agent to help people to break free from the subjective egocentric view point of seeing reality and can help them to see how all that looks from an objective point of view....can help them to laugh at themselves and all those things that appeared so important and yet were the binding force to hold them back....

Also, Uranus is ruler of the lunar north node and the NN of Uranus is in Gemini, conj moon in the 1st. So eventually, she'll be a poster child of spirit's work through writing from HER OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Is this a true assessment? What else can we say about the nn of uranus conj moon in Gemini? It feels like telling her own story is very key here. And we can say that her destiny takes her there? And travel/teaching mentoring- being as mercury, the ruler of Gemini is in Capricorn in the 9th.
We are writing all of this about her- and look where her Mercury is- 20 degrees Capricorn, a current hot spot for the evolution of consciousness! (transits of nn and everything else in cap)


Amazing indeed! Astrology in our face isn't it? :-)
Well, no one can really know and therefore teach anything that they themselves haven't experienced in some essential ways........Without that teachings are either somebody else's knowledge taken in (which is of course limited to the person's understanding and perception)....or intellectual speculations or sometimes just projections based on imagination or a mixture of these....

This particular soul has a gift to REALLY teach all the issues that affected it's own evolution simply because it went through tremendous process - it went through the dark, it has been f-d. up, got stuck in total confusion etc. and is in the process of breaking free and objectifying it......and if it will TRULY break free from it all (so if it continues to the direction the evolutionary axis represents) then it can TRULY teach and help others to do the same....


Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 16, 2010, 04:46 PM
cont.

Woa, this is interesting. Is this why you see there was an original non discerning trust (original lilith conj neputne- resolution lilith on 6th house libra cusp) that was disillusioned by her own children she was serving (black moon in virgo in 5th) which effected her relationship for her natural role as a woman, and her natural wisdom (ruled by mercury in capricorn)?

The soul PERCEIVED every person that had relationship with and taught them originally the proper use of sexuality (vesta)  AS HER CHILDREN at that time.......yes this was developed by way of initiating it’s own sons ...but from there the love and compassion was extended to a far wider level; neptune seeing the divine in them ....giving and receiving something that is divine in all of us....and it is absolutely true in essence.....At that time via the role the soul played i.e. a manifestation of the goddess’s love in a personal form and doing her best to give that service for the divine aim teaching in a very practical way (capr) what natural law means applied to the time and space reality and social interaction OF THAT TIME...so this is still natural society...but then the transition came.....

The 6th house cusp being ruled by Venus which is in Pisces in the 10th, conj vesta- squaring Neptune in the 7th. Venus is also the ruler of Pluto Lucifer. So is this where you are able to put her son's in the picture?


No it is the 5th house pluto conj. lucifer, then uranus is in the same house and sign....uranus rules the cusp of the 10th and her sun.....

Here we need to apply the ruler venus conj. vesta and all this being ruled by neptune in the 7th that is ruled by jup in 8th.....then apply the historical knowledge we have to THAT time of the transiton....

The orignal betrayal where the distortion started was via the soul's son as a woman at that time.....the way how patriarchy was SPREAD ALL OVER THE PLANET was via a highly respected woman’s son became her partner/husband (like the myth of zeus etc.) who represented the old spiritual system (which was of course always goddess and woman descendant based). This is what we need to understand here the descendant could never be accepted as ’divine’ by society unless it CAME FROM A WOMAN who was already considered as representing the divine or descending from the divine....there was absolutely NO WAY that society at large would accept any man as ruler or divine etc....ONLY IF A WOMAN SAID SO.....

And it had to have a 'divine' origin..so it had to be a son of a 'divine origin' woman....

So this was the covert way of taking over.....taking over the symbol of the ‘divine’ from the woman to the man to THAT man who came from her...so the woman passed onto him the divinity.

Understadning the issue of ‘inheritance’ in this way: pluto/scorpio/8th house, applying the historical facts into the chart symbols during the time of the transition we can clearly see the signs of the 'divine inheritance' issue here : the inheritance at the first place perceived by society (pisces venus rules pluto) the inheritance is elusive something transcendent.....so what lucifer conj. pluto in that timeframe correlates to of course is the change in the social order (uranus rules 10th cusp) and uranus being in the same sign and house as pluto/lucifer.
What the soul has given and shared was the social role the social power, and what has passed on to it’s sons in several life times (and had no idea in essence) was the ‘divine descent’ the right for its sons to rule...to take over and eventually overpower her and put aside ...to reduce her to be basically their slave in essence....while the soul still believed they loved her they actually progressively used and abused her....so reality started to go upside down with ever more confusion....neptune square venus; the soul lost it’s sence of identity, it’s inner relationship had been so confused it didn’t know who it was anymore....venus also squares sat/moon so this t-square affected the soul’s sense of self image and sense of responsibility...a total confusion via severe disillusionments which all pointed back to neptune: what on earth the divine wants from the soul and how to do that how to be of service for what is true?

Can you see what I mean?
All this starts with the original lilith conj. neptune, and vesta conj. venus as time frame.... as the transition to patriarchy started.

Can we also then say that in the past, her father also sought to undermine her power? And that there was intense male jealousy?


Yes of course! As above the patriarchal power started via transfering the so called divinity from the feminine to the masculine and with that transiting from equality to superiority/inferiority. The gender roles have been totally redefined and  distorted....
The father is of course one of the souls who at the time OF THE TRANSITON (when there was NO FATHER CONCEPT!) WAS THE SOUL'S SON....

SO ONE OF THOSE WHO UNDERMINED AND BETRAYED THE SOUL'S ORIGINAL INTENTION.


Jealousy comes from many sources one of which is the simple fact that no matter how many intellectualised teachings stating the opposite all but ALL male know it inwardly in an intuitive sense that the female didn't come form the male the opposite is the truth....so does every female know it no matter how much they are subdued ....to convince society to believe in something which is the absolute opposite to how natural law works isn't possible without violent oppression......which is of course the very opposite of what natural capr. stands for responsibility on a social scale....so men at large were forced to act in an irresponsible way via being oppressive and domineering ...meaning they were expected/forced to conform to the man-made new social standards....by the way this can never be done to an adult who is already conditioned and grown up within natural law....it's not possible....they may pretend but would not believe it....what CAN be done however is to separate male children from their natural environment and DISTORT them before they grow up. That's why patriarchy is all based on conditioning of course....only if a human being is brought up in a distorted environment AS A CHILD  will the distortion take it's inwards roots and by the time the persons grows up it will have no clue what the heck is the problem.

That's how patriarchy actually works....that's the key. And that is of course by isolating the women, locking them into small rooms, housesore sometimes even pallases (like in this case that too happened) denying them the right to interact with others with the larger society and taking ownership (taurus) of her children and distorting those children so that they will be damaged before they can understadn it.......and because they are damaged they will act out that damage and relate to all in a distorted way as adult...this is how the totally unnatural laws of the patriarchy being spread.

Interesting to note that NO CONSENSUS PERSON would ever go against natural law IF THEY WERE BROUGHT UP in a truly NATURAL SOCIETY....none of them, simply because they can't think outside of the parameters of their social norms and laws and will folow it....... That's why there was no violence before the patriarchy....what seems to be the problem today that was actually keeping society AT LARGE and its natural laws intact and unchanged in the past within the matriarchy.....

People don't have to be all enlightened to live according to natural law...they need to be given laws that are in accordance with the divine order and they will folow that IF THE WHOLE SOCIAL CONTEXT LIVES ACCORDINGLY....for then they will be conditioned to the right laws..........of course that needs to be maintained by people who do understand those laws and have the true ability to teach, guide and serve society accordingly out of unconditonal love and serving the divine via serving the people....  instead of self interest and ego gratification ......wanting the best for all souls leading them relative to their evolutionary capacity.....serving the divine via serving the people/society according to their ability of course.....this kind of leading/teacing for the benefit of the whole of course possible only if a soul is in te spiritual state.....so it depends on the ability of the individual soul and certainly not on 'birth right' and all the other bogus patriarchal notions..... so of course they are not teh consensus people who today lead most societies ....

Society is as good or bad as the underlying philosophical/cosmological laws are on which society's rules and norms are based on...it's a crystalisation of those underlying laws...it can be natural law or a distorted system like it is today....capr. comes out of sag....what are teh beliefs what constitues 'truth'....this depends on the teaching that underlies society... during the last satya yuga for example human society was lead and taught by people who represented divine wisdom....so society reflected that....

The evolutionary issue however is the individual evolution of each soul...and that can not hapen by just following good rules without learning to think for oneself....so as horrible as it is in this sense the contraction cycle of the cosmic year or great year represents the  period when the souls are left to themselves to figure out what is true and what is not....society and it's rules doesn't help......for it can distort, it can turn upside down...what it represented once and what it represent now of course is totally opposite.....so each soul continued their journey within patriarchy (going downward on the 'cosmic wheel' to the dark ages)  in a way that they had the least help and have been circumstantially forced to fall back on themselves and use/utilise their own soul potentials despite all odds .......for better or worst.

In this sense the overall soul potential is neptune and where the soul actually is that's pluto...
Thus, neptune can be a guiding star within one's consciousness or can be the most delusive illusion...
Usually it is a bit of both :-)

Hope this makes sense?

Blessings,
Lia



Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lucius on Jan 17, 2010, 09:26 AM
Just want to say simply that this gal is at the evolutionary state where she needs to contemplate where she begins and ends - on an ego level.

She doesn't own any gifts - they are given by Spirit.  This is the dualistic issue in this state: not identifying with the gift and recognizing it is from spirit to help others versus the resistance to not identifying with it, wanting to say 'I have these gifts' rather than realizing we would not even exist without Spirit and that once we are 'empty' all is given, but we don't own it, so even her 'gift' is just that - a gift from spirit.  Well, I'm taking a simple issues & making it complicated as usual!  I say this assuming she is in the second spiritual state - I thought that was what was conjectured??

The victim consciousness thread started by Ellen are probably more issues - which also ties into an ego-driven, narcissitic view.  Was the gal you mentioned this gal, or someone else, Ari Moshe, in that thread?




Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 17, 2010, 12:05 PM
Quote
This particular soul has a gift to REALLY teach all the issues that affected it's own evolution simply because it went through tremendous process - it went through the dark, it has been f-d. up, got stuck in total confusion etc. and is in the process of breaking free and objectifying it......and if it will TRULY break free from it all (so if it continues to the direction the evolutionary axis represents) then it can TRULY teach and help others to do the same....

Like Lucius reminded- she is second stage spiritual, or on the cusp of it. So she already is a teacher and does in fact help others do the same.

Lucius, not the same gal.

Lia, your description of Neptune is in fact one of the best one's I have ever read! It was not too complicated at all for my jupiter mercury neptune conjunction in sag...  ;D I look forward to your article. Also I believe you have written more about the liliths- is it possible to find that anywhere?


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Upasika on Jan 17, 2010, 05:48 PM
Hi Upasika, 

you are more than welcome! Hope you'll have more time in the future to join in ...when you  have any question feel free to ask......someone will answer you I'm sure.....and I'd suggest to just ask the question as it arises in you.....don't put it aside and don't worry about if it is a 'stupid' question for there is NO stupid question when it comes from true curiosity/ intention to understand something......

So once again WELCOME to the EA community and thanks for your generous service about solar fire I'm sure there are many people who would have more questions about these 'technological mysteries' that are indeed above many of us - myself included! :-)  ::)


love and blessings,
Lia



Hi Lia,

Thanks for the invite to just jump in, and I'll certainly do that when the need arises, and also when I've got more time to give to the threads (hopefully not too far away). At the moment with what time I have I'm still enjoying to digest more of the material already on here, as its such a great learning resource, and as might be expected some of my questions automatically get answered in the process.

As for Solar Fire, I've just noticed Steve has a good handle on it too, and has got a couple of SF posts in the Misc section, so taking his lead I guess thats probably the best place to put any further SF questions and posts, and it'll also make it easier to get to them (and I'm happy to also lend a hand in whatever way I can with those).

Upasika


Title: Re: Lucifer chart
Post by: Lia on Jan 18, 2010, 05:24 PM
Hi Ari,


As for neptune - I am still working on that it will probably take some time until I feel its 'good enough':-)  
About the 3 Liliths I've done a presentation on the subject in the last EA conference ...2006 was it I think. It's on DVD. Write an email if you'd like to have it. Well if you don't mind my hungarian accent! :-)

I paste the description below.
Blessings,
Lia


The three Liliths:
Our feminine principle and its evolution before, during and beyond the patriarchy

Description of the symbols:

There are three different symbols in the natal chart which are a bit confusing for many because they are all called Lilith. These are: Lilith the asteroid, Dark Moon Lilith, and Black Moon Lilith.

Asteroid Lilith is one asteroid within the many, its number 1181 on Astrodienst website.

Dark Moon Lilith or Waldemath Dark Moon is a debated dark body/shadow revolving around the Earth. As it is debated it has more than one ephemeris, on Solar Fire we will have a 10-12 degrees different ephemeris than on Astrodienst website. Its number on Astrodienst is h58, it is listed within the so called 'hypothetical planet list as Waldemath Dark Moon.  

The third symbol is Black Moon Lilith which is the ever moving focal point between the Moon and the Earth. This symbol is a point in space, an empty point which in essence symbolises the mid point on an invisible 'wire' between the Moon and the Earth.Today it comes up on Astrodienst within the most used asteroids vindow as ‘Lilith’. It is though Black Moon Lilith, its number is h13.

These three symbols in their totality correlate to our inner feminine principle there is a sequence hidden in them; they tell a threefold story of this aspect of our consciousness within our unique, individual soul-history embracing past, present and future. Meaning they unravel the mystery how our inner feminine principle have been affected, how it operated before and then during the patriarchy while the symbolism also points out the way how our feminine principle can be healed and grow beyond the patriarchal distortion.

These symbols can be applied to individual as well as to collective charts; shedding light on the feminine principle and its evolution.


Outline of lecture:

These three symbols will be presented from the point of view how they correlate to our inner feminine principle no regards in which gender are we incarnating.
Lilith the asteroid in any chart is an indicator of our original, individual feminine aspect how it was experienced within equality based matriarchal social setting. It will also correlate to how this aspect of our soul reacted to the transition of the patriarchy when - relative to our own soul history - it begun it became a part of our experiences.

We all have this essential feminine aspect within our soul and of course this principle has been wounded and distorted in all of us via the take over of the patriarchy -whether we know it consciously or not. How we encountered and then responded to this new patriarchal order at the first place will be signified by asteroid Lilith. This symbol sheds light on our individual history in this respect, via sign house and aspects.

From there onward a progressive distortion occurred to our feminine nature in one way or another. This progressive distortion during and because of the patriarchy has a peak; which is the greatest distortion of our feminine aspect caused by the insanity of the unnatural order within which we were all forced to live. The symbol for this peak distortion is symbolized by Dark Moon Lilith/Waldemath Dark Moon.

 Interesting to note the fact that today we have two different ephemeris to this symbol: it’s a kind of a shadow noted by only a few and debated by many. The two different ephemeris literally 'shadow' an area in our chart instead of giving a fix point. Perhaps it is symbolic to the fact that the distortion is more than a point; it's, an area in our consciousness through which the feminine in us has been most deeply affected by this peak distortion symbolism. To me it reflects on the fact that the distortion is manifold impacting a whole area; and from there of course affecting our overall consciousness. The area that is between the two points (that the two different ephemeris gives) is usually between six to fifteen degrees. Thus it sometimes falls in one sign and house but sometimes affecting another house and sign as well.  The fact that it is debated, it is unclear and yet still known and used in different programs with different ephemeris to me appears as a perfectly fitting correlation: a feeling of uncertainty as it kind of goes into an unknown darkness. Unclear boundaries of an uncertain territory; the nature of the shadow.

The third symbol is Black Moon Lilith; the focal point between the Moon and Earth.  This is the balancing/ resolving symbol. It points out the way how to heal and how to recover our wounded, distorted feminine principle.
 
This threefold symbolism clearly demonstrates what and how it happened relative to our own soul history (our whole chart) and relative to our own inner feminine principle (Lilith). This original feminine is what has been 'cast out' forcing it to sank into an 'unclear darkness' (Dark Moon Lilith) during the patriarchy -collectively as well as individually.  Millenniums when women had to literally stop existing as they once were. This affected each one of us no matter what gender we were manifesting through. Our inner feminine principle was shattered inwardly and outwardly to become a shadow. Just as women had to literally become a shadow; a shadow of men as it was described to them and was the only way for them to exist.


The resolution point, Black Moon Lilith being the focal point between the Moon and the Earth has a deep symbolism; it is the center point, the balance point between the Earth and it's water moving, life giving, balancing celestial body- part: the Moon. According to current scientific researches the formation of the Moon is what triggered a chemical and climatic chain reaction which resulted in life on Earth as we know it today.

Black Moon Lilith is the symbol in our chart via which we can consciously heal, resolve and re-embrace our inner feminine principle. It points the way how this cast out, wounded part of us which has been diminished to be a shadow can be resolved to re-emerge intact again in our consciousness.

Without the healing of the feminine no healthy life is possible neither for women nor men. The imbalance of life caused by the patriarchy must be re-balanced and healed within us all; Black Moon Lilith points out our own unique way which of course is connected to our original feminine principle and the specific wounds and distortions it went through.

This focal point is like an invisible bridge between the Earth and its most immediate "heavenly" partner, the Moon. Healing our inner feminine aspect leads to healing our emotions and our self image. (Moon)

The three Lilith symbols in the chart tell an interesting and complex story within our soul-history, the story of our feminine principle. It embraces past, present and the direction of the future from this particular point of view; the evolution of our feminine principle.

The three Liliths can be applied to individual as well as collective charts: they always shed light what and how happened to the original feminine principle and how this principle can return either within us as individuals or within a collective soul.

(Demonstration via an interrelated past life story of three souls and their chart analysis from the point of view of the three Liliths)