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Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: ari moshe on Feb 06, 2010, 04:28 PM



Title: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: ari moshe on Feb 06, 2010, 04:28 PM
Hello all,

I am wondering why EA doesn't work with the sign of Scorpio the 8th house as a part of the Pluto and the nodes paradigm. Why is only Pluto addressed when it comes to reading the soul's evolutionary intentions prior to this life?

Does it have something to do with the intrinsic nature of a planet versus a sign and house?

Thank you.


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Deva on Feb 07, 2010, 09:49 AM
Hi Ari-the Pluto paradigm- in total- gives us an understanding of the core dynamics within any Soul relative to the correlations of Pluto, Pluto's polarity point, the nodes, their rulers. We must first understand these core dynamics reflected in the Pluto paradigm before we can properly understand the other factors in the birth chart (including the other planets, and the houses and signs they occupy. In other words, many people have Scorpio on the 2nd house cusp (in the 2nd house), yet how we could interpret how that archetype would be functioning within consciousness is determined by our understanding of the core dynamics within the Pluto paradigm. The Pluto paradigm is like the foundation of a house because it serves as the bottom line upon which all other factors in the birth chart are interpreted and given meaning. Hope this helps, and please feel free to ask for more clarification if you feel you need it. Thanks for posting!
Deva   


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: ari moshe on Feb 07, 2010, 01:36 PM
Thanks Deva,

I don't understand WHY the Pluto paradigm is what is it. In other words:
If someone has Aries on the 8th house cusp, Scorpio on the 3rd with a bunch of planets in Scorpio, and Pluto in the 1st house. Why do we only explore Pluto and nodes as a basis and context for understanding all the other signatures. While there is a clear difference between a sign, planet and a house- don't both Scorpio and the 8th house contain the same symbology and meaning as Pluto?

Perhaps it is because:
1. the sign scorpio itself is ruled by Pluto- so it is neccesary to understand Pluto in order to understand the evolutionary intentions implied by the sign scorpio.

2. each house itself is ruled by a particular planet, and thus that planet needs to be analyzed in order to understand the activities of that house. And of course every planet can only be understood in the context of Pluto and the nodes...
For example: in the above chart- Aries is on the 8th house- so that does in fact indicate something about the soul's evoltuionary intentions proir to this life, does it not? However, it is ruled by a planet- Mars. And Mars in and of itself, paves the way for a soul's realization. Just the fact that it is a planet- means we have to understand it for what it is. It simply brings us back to Pluto and the nodes as a neccesary means to understand Mars, and thus all 8th house activity.

Did that make sense?


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 07, 2010, 03:03 PM
Hi Ari,

The Zodiac, it's Houses and Signs, correlate to the total structure of consciousness in human form. The planets within the Zodiac correlate to bringing that consciousness to life, and thus setting  in motion consciousness itself. The planets within the Zodiac are the unique structural nature of that consciousness from life to life. They are the gasoline within the tank. This is why we start with Pluto, the Nodes, the location of their planetary rulers, and all the aspects to other planets that they are making. This is the core and foundation upon which the Soul structure and it’s evolutionary background, and it’s evolutionary development, is understood. Wherever the sign Scorpio, by house, is will contribute to this foundation because the Signs on the Houses correlate to how consciousness is orientated to phenomenal reality. And that current life orientation to phenomenal reality reflects the evolutionary needs of the Soul in this life. Planets that are in Scorpio, or the 8th  House,  correlate to the Soul’s intention, in this life, to metamorphose the existing development and limitations implied in the archetypes of the planets themselves.  The sign on the 8th  House is an archetype in which this same Soul intention to metamorphose the existing development of that archetype within consciousness exists.

Rad



Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: ari moshe on Feb 09, 2010, 12:33 AM
Thank you Rad, that was really helpful.

If however a soul has Aries on the 8th with no planets in Aries- is it true to say that in this life, the intent for that soul is to transform the pre-existing limitations and development from previous lives that are implied by natal Mars?

And thus Aries on the 8th house- only in light of whatever Mars is doing- would indicate where a soul left off?


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 09, 2010, 10:54 AM
Hi Ari,

"If however a soul has Aries on the 8th with no planets in Aries- is it true to say that in this life, the intent for that soul is to transform the pre-existing limitations and development from previous lives that are implied by natal Mars?"

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No. It would not be the natal Mars, but the S.Node of Mars by sign, house, and aspects to it. The current position, the natal position, of Mars correlates to how to move forwards in this life in order to evolve beyond where the Soul left off with the existing desires from past lifetimes. It is essential to remember that all desires emanate from the Soul. And that the root of such desires to evolve, the ongoing evolutionary journey of the Soul, is of course all symbolized by the natal position of Pluto, and it's polarity point. Mars, as an archetype, is the lower octave of Pluto that instinctually acts out, acts upon, those desires emanating from the Soul itself.

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"And thus Aries on the 8th house- only in light of whatever Mars is doing- would indicate where a soul left off?"

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The S.Node of Mars would indicate where the desires emanating from the Soul was left off relative to it's desires to evolve. Aries on the 8th would then symbolize the Soul's intention in this life to confront and evolve beyond those existing limitations: of where those desires was left off. The current life Mars will then, for the entire life, correlate to where and how this will be done, and the N.Node of Mars will correlate the new desires emanating from the Soul to how and where the desires symbolized by the natal Mars will evolve themselves which are relative to the Pluto's natal polarity point.

****************************************************************************

 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: ari moshe on Feb 09, 2010, 12:26 PM
Thank you Rad. I don't quite understand some basics it seems.

1. Doesn't Mars in and of itself have pl implications?

2. When you say "the natal position of mars correlates to how to move forwards in this life in order to evolve beyond where the soul left off with the existing desires (pluto) from pl" does that really mean that one's natal mars has no past life resonance?

3. does this mean we can only understand mars in relation to it's sn, which itself can only be understood in relation to pluto- WHICH ITSELF can only be understood in relation to the sn of pluto???

Do you have any meditation/guidance for how I can personally connect with this these facts, beyond the mind. I feel as though anything could be true or false, and I'd have no way of personally knowing one way or the other. Maybe more guidance/insight for the breathing practice?
Thank you.


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 09, 2010, 01:40 PM
Ari,

Thank you Rad. I don't quite understand some basics it seems.

1. Doesn't Mars in and of itself have pl implications?

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It does when there are aspects to it from Pluto, or aspects to the S.Node, it's planetary ruler, or aspects to that planetary ruler.

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2. When you say "the natal position of mars correlates to how to move forwards in this life in order to evolve beyond where the soul left off with the existing desires (pluto) from pl" does that really mean that one's natal mars has no past life resonance?

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no.........as above.

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3. does this mean we can only understand mars in relation to it's sn, which itself can only be understood in relation to pluto- WHICH ITSELF can only be understood in relation to the sn of pluto???

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Essentially yes, unless there are aspects that it forms as defined above. The current life Mars, is THE CURRENT LIFE MARS. If it is directly connected to the past, as above, it is still the current life Mars and operates in exactly the way that has been detailed above.

****************************************************************************

Do you have any meditation/guidance for how I can personally connect with this these facts, beyond the mind. I feel as though anything could be true or false, and I'd have no way of personally knowing one way or the other. Maybe more guidance/insight for the breathing practice?

***************************************************************************

You can know it for yourself by practice, and allowing your intuition to simply grasp the truth of the total EA paradigm. We all know, not believe, that we have a past because it's a known quantity: it exits. We also know that we have a future because we have had a past. And that knowing exists in each moment of our life: inhale and exhale. This is known. Does not require belief of any kind. The paradigm of EA perfectly reflects this simple, and natural truth. Thus, we have S.Nodes, current life positions of planets, and N.Nodes. It is the interweaving of the known past with the evolutionary pull of the future than manifests as desires that we act upon, and that action occurs in the moment. It's just that simple. The totality of the Soul's birth chart in each life symbolized in all of these symbols correlates to this natural law and truth.


 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: ari moshe on Feb 11, 2010, 12:00 PM
Thank you Rad, this is becoming clearer as I'm allowing it to speak to me.

I was wondering why we don't look at the sn of Pluto first and read the south node of the Moon as a vehicle for the sn of Pluto? I am beginning to grasp the trinity- however, why does Pluto represent the soul's evolutionary desires from previous lives whereas all the other planets, assuming they are not in aspect to any node (or pluto) do not innately imply past lives?


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 12, 2010, 11:16 AM
Ari

"I was wondering why we don't look at the sn of Pluto first and read the south node of the Moon as a vehicle for the sn of Pluto? I am beginning to grasp the trinity- however,

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     The Soul, again, has it's own unique identity as created by the Source, or God. As such, it has it's own ego that creates an image in the Soul of that unique identity. The awareness of that unique Soul identity is a function of evolution itself which finally leads be being self aware, and has the evolved capacity, at some point, to objectify itself. The S and N Nodes of Pluto correlate to this ongoing evolutionary development of the Soul from within itself. The natal position of the current life Pluto simultaneously correlates to what the desires have been within the Soul for it's own development, thus where it left off in those lives that have lead to the current life, and the evolutionary intent for the current life for it's evolution to proceed: the natural polarity point of that natal Pluto. The S.Node of Pluto, by it's own house and sign location, aspects to it from other planets, aspects to it's natural planetary ruler all correlates to archetypes and dynamics that the Soul has used to develop itself, evolve itself, relative the it's core desires for it's evolution that is symbolized in the natal position of Pluto itself. The N.Node of Pluto correlates to how and why the Soul evolves itself from within itself: what it needs to continue in it's evolution. Other planets that aspect this N.Node are archetypes that correlate to this ongoing evolution of the Soul within itself.

     In order for all these internal dynamics within the Soul itself that correlate to it's own ongoing evolution it must project or externalize itself through the creation of forms: the human form. This natural law or principle is the same as of what we call the Source of All Things, or God, projecting and externalizing itself in the form of what we call CREATION. What we call God does this in order to know itself in all of these forms in the totality of Creation. So too with the individual Soul. The Soul needs to project or externalize itself in order to know itself, to objectify itself.

     So the Soul projects and externalizes itself form life to life in the form of the lifetimes that it lives that are all finite. The Soul itself is infinite just as God itself is infinite. Each finite life that the Soul projects from within itself, just as God projects each individualized Soul from within itself, reflects and symbolizes the core desires from within the Soul that reflect it's own ongoing evolutionary desires to evolve. As a result of this projection form life to life we then have the birth charts for each of those lives that reflect the finite forms that the Soul creates in order to affect it's ongoing evolution. In each of these finite forms that the Soul creates it thus creates a consciousness that has it's own subjective self awareness that we call the ego or 'I'. And of course that subjective ego , the egocentric structure, is a projection from the Soul itself in order to know itself relative to the finite form it has created in each life that reflects it's ongoing evolutionary needs and requirements.

     The subjective 'I' or ego that is created in each life by the Soul of course is the archetype of the Moon. The evolutionary journey of the Soul through time is thus symbolized through all the different finite forms or lives that it creates that are determined by it's evolutionary needs and desires. And it is each of these finite lives that the Soul creates that the birth chart correlates too. And in each of those lives the finite ego does indeed 'die' , just as the body dies. Yet the memories of each life are sustained and live on within the Soul itself. And it is these ongoing evolutionary experiences from life to life that are the ongoing determinant and cause for yet another life.


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"why does Pluto represent the soul's evolutionary desires from previous lives whereas all the other planets, assuming they are not in aspect to any node (or pluto) do not innately imply past lives?"

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     Because Pluto correlates to the Soul itself, and within that, the natural law of evolution. It correlates to what the desires of the Soul has been that has lead to the current life, and the desires that correlate to it's ongoing evolutionary needs. This is contained with Pluto, the Soul, itself. All the other planets in a current life birth chart are thus created by the Soul for it's ongoing evolutionary needs that are reflected in it's desires. The current life birth planets do have their own N and S Nodes. It is the S.Nodes of these planets that do correlate to the past life dynamics that the Soul has created for itself that have lead to the current life, and the position of whatever planet IN THIS LIFE that symbolizes the current life's evolutionary needs.

     The current life position brings the past forwards through it: the S.Node coming through the current position of the planet itself. The N.Node of the planet in turn correlates to the ongoing evolutionary journey of the Soul as it continues to evolve through each of the archetypes of all the planets. The cause of that evolution is the Soul, not any of the other planets themselves. The natural polarity point of the natal Pluto is the bottom line evolutionary intent for the Soul in each life. It is the primary cause that causes the N.Nodes of all the other planets to actualize according to that primary evolutionary intention. The natal planet, in the current life, birth chart, serves to integrate the past and the future in each moment FOR THE ENTIRE LIFE.


 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Upasika on Feb 12, 2010, 09:05 PM
Hi Rad,

OK, so within the EA paradigm, in general how much "weight" should we put on the south and north nodes of the planets when working with a chart?

Obviously we put a lot of weight (or emphasis) on the north and south nodes of the Moon.
How much then to give to the nodes of Pluto itself? and how much to give to all the rest of the planets?

If some planets are highlighted in the chart for various reasons e.g on an angle, part of a tight aspect pattern, or a moon node ruler, or in aspect to Pluto etc, would that mean the nodes of these planets become more important in chart analysis?

thanks Upasika


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 13, 2010, 10:07 AM
Hi Upasika,

Hi Rad,

OK, so within the EA paradigm, in general how much "weight" should we put on the south and north nodes of the planets when working with a chart?

Obviously we put a lot of weight (or emphasis) on the north and south nodes of the Moon.
How much then to give to the nodes of Pluto itself? and how much to give to all the rest of the planets?

If some planets are highlighted in the chart for various reasons e.g on an angle, part of a tight aspect pattern, or a moon node ruler, or in aspect to Pluto etc, would that mean the nodes of these planets become more important in chart analysis?

thanks Upasika

Pluto and it's Nodes, planetary rulers, aspects to these from other planets, correlate to the root structure within any birth chart. And from that root all else, the S.N.Nodes of the Moon, their planetary rulers, aspects to these points, are 'birthed' from that root. It's like a tree that has branches where the root produces the trunk of the tree, and the trunk then produces branches with leaves. This core root and it's branches within the birth chart is treated EQUALLY for it is the very structure of the chart itself. If we understand this root structure within the birth chart and relate it to the natural law of cause and effect then we can understand that core structure within the birth chart at once. It will, of itself, induce inductive logic. And from there we can then understand the origins and causes of all the specific leaves manifesting from the branches, i.e. why is this Mars in Gemini squaring Mercury in Pisces.
     

  Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Upasika on Feb 13, 2010, 05:19 PM
Hi Rad,

Thanks for that foundation perspective, it clarifies the whole bottom line of the chart.

To clarify I understand correctly, this means then that ...

- Pluto (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodes (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodal rulers (sign/house)
- aspects from all of the above to other planets (and their signs/houses - and if more info is required, also their nodes)

... are the fundamental root of any chart.

From there, the the sign/house of the Moon's nodes, Moon's nodal rulers, and Pluto's polarity point are brought in. Then aspects from all these to other planets (and their signs/houses). Also at this level a planet's nodes can be examined if more info was required.

Then progression to examination of any other part of the chart that thus becomes implicated out of this.

(Realising of course that every part of the chart has a part in the whole person/event and so eventually needs to be included in a totally complete analysis.)

Please correct me if I haven't got any or all of this right.

One question I have is: Pluto's polarity point shows the soul's current evolutionary intentions for this life (unless Pluto is conjunct the Moon's N.Node in which case there is no polarity point for Pluto). So how does PPP differ to Pluto's N.Node in this regard?

And again thanks Rad for being so generous with your time and guidance.

Upasika



Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 14, 2010, 11:24 AM
Hi Upasika,

  Yes, you have summarized it correctly.

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  "So how does PPP differ to Pluto's N.Node in this regard?"

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     The N.Node of Pluto reflects the ongoing evolutionary development of the Soul from within itself that is then actualized through the creation, projection, externalization of itself via the finite form it creates in each life. This is symbolized by the polarity point of Pluto in the current life birth chart. The Soul, from within itself, of course contains all the previous identities, singular life/ finite forms, that it has ever lived. It also contains within itself all the different possibilities, future life / finite forms, that could occur. That which can occur is dependent of what the Soul, within itself, DESIRES. Those desires have been the prior life causes of what has already taken place. And in each of those lives the Soul created the necessity of subjective egocentric identities, finite life forms, for the desires to be actualized which of course has lead to yet more desires to evolve that have lead to yet another life. In each of these lives the Soul, from within itself, has had a N.Node that has symbolized those ongoing evolutionary developmental desires. And in each life those desires are then actualized by way of the polarity point of Pluto in each life, the individual birth chart. It's like, from within the Soul itself, it says " I need or desire to evolve in the following way: it's N.Node, and in order to do this I will actualize it like this: the polarity point of Pluto in the individual life that it creates, in each life. "

     The Nodes of Pluto stay in signs, i.e. Cancer/ Capricorn, or whatever signs, about 2,000 years. Most Souls of course will have more than one life within a span of 2,000 years. So the core evolutionary desires from within the Soul exist beyond the singularity of one finite life. In each of those singular lives the Soul continues to desire to evolve in this core archetypal way that is then actualized through each of the specific singular/ finite lives that it lives. And it each of those singular lives that core evolutionary intent within the Soul is actualized by the polarity point of Pluto in those lives: the birth chart that that symbolizes this entire process.

     Let's make a simple example of these dynamics. Let's say person x has in their current birth chart a 9th House Pluto in Leo, the S.Node of Pluto being in Capricorn in the 2nd, which is ruled by Saturn in Leo in the 9th. The N.Node of Pluto would be in Cancer in the 8th, and Pluto's polarity point would be in Aquarius in the 3rd. The Pluto in the 9th in Leo would correlate to a Soul that has desired to understand and actualize itself by way of understanding the nature of the cosmos, and the Natural Laws of Creation. It has spent many, many lives in relative isolation, the S.Node of Pluto in Capricorn in the 2nd, in order to inwardly contemplate that nature of Creation in order to realize by way of that isolated contemplation the nature of these Natural Laws which thus become the very basis of the Soul's inner relationship to itself: the 2nd House. This, in turn would constitute the Souls core sense of meaning for existence, of that which held the core meaning for life itself.

     The ruler of that S.Node is also in Leo in the 9th. This would restate the Soul actualizing these core desires within the context of Nature, living and being within Nature in order to inwardly know all the Natural Laws that are responsible for Creation, Leo, itself. In relation to the S.Node being in the 2nd these symbols put together correlate to a natural loner who has realized what it has desired in essential isolation in this way.

     Yet, in this way, the Soul has reached an evolutionary limit, and needs to continue to evolve. The Soul, from within itself, realizes this which is then symbolized by it's N.Node being in Cancer in the 8th House: the desire and need to jump out of the well of it's own isolation, and to then engage and help other Souls on their own evolutionary journey. In so doing the Soul will then necessarily interact with other Souls and THEIR REALITIES: the interaction of the S and N Nodes of Pluto where Capricorn correlates to the archetype of reality, the realities of Earth itself. In this interaction with others it thus causes the Soul from within itself to confront it's own evolutionary limitations that then creates the ongoing awareness of what it needs to continue to evolve itself. This confrontation can then cause the Soul to feel insecure from within itself as it is required to evolve beyond where it was by way of it's own understandings of the nature of reality on this Earth that are reflections of the Natural Laws of Creation. These confrontations are intended so that the Soul can evolve beyond where  it has already been.

     In order for these core Soul intentions to evolve it then creates a singular or finite life in which the polarity point of the natal Pluto is in Aquarius in the 3rd. This will manifest, in the context of the example we are using, by creating a life in which the very opposite of where it has been: living alone in relative isolation within Nature. The Soul now will create a life in which it will be totally involved with others who are living within the world, in their cities, wherever whole groups of people exist: Aquarius in the 3rd. And, in this way, purposefully engage the realities of countless others who have all kinds of ideas, opinions, points of vies, ideas, and philosophies from a to z, so to speak. And all of this will then of course impact on the Soul's  current state of understanding the nature of reality that it has already realized in it's past. The Soul then has another choice to make: it can retreat back to where it has been in order to remain secure from within itself, or make a choice to continue to grow from within itself due to the confrontations to that existing reality through the diversity of ideas manifesting within these groups of people, other individuals.

     If it makes the choice to proceed in this way it will then of course continue to evolve which reflects the intention of Pluto's N.Node in Cancer in the 8th. That N.Node of Cancer of course will be ruled by the current life Moon, it's egocentric structure created in the current life. So the underlying dynamics within the Soul that we have been discussing will then be focused, like a lens in a movie projector that creates images on a screen, into a current life identity, the 'I' of the current life. This is the natural law of how a Soul externalizes or projects itself from life to life by creating an 'image' of itself that correlates to the entire 'movie' of that life.


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     And thank you too Upasika for your own work and interest in EA. You certainly seem to be a perfect vehicle to spread , and help others, with this sacred paradigm we call EA.

     God Bless, Rad

     

     


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Gonzalo on Feb 15, 2010, 11:12 AM
Hi Rad,

I am trying to integrate this material about the nodes of Pluto in my understanding. I am not sure if it is correct to consider the Pluto SN and its ruler as correlating to older chapters in the Soul’s journey, these older chapters coming through the past symbolized by Pluto. 

Let’s say a Soul with Pluto in the 2nd House Virgo, Pluto SN in the 7th Capricorn, ruler Saturn in the 10th Taurus, trine Pluto and trine Pluto SN. Pluto NN in Cancer in the 1st House, ruler the Moon in the 2nd House Virgo conjunct Pluto. With Pluto in the 2nd House Virgo, the Soul has passed many lives in relative isolation and relating to himself in order to discover its own sense of value, relating to himself in critical ways.

The SN of Pluto in the 7th would then indicate that the Soul had prior desires to have its sense of identity created through relationships with others. Through patriarchal conditioning (Pluto SN in Capricorn), its patterns of relatedness to others (7th House) become overly defined by responsibility and authority. Thus, this Soul attempted to have its sense of identity created through relationships with others which were, then, defined by responsibility and by a sense of authority which was dependent on being acknowledged by others.   

With the planetary ruler of Pluto SN being Saturn in the 10th House Taurus, the Soul gravitated towards positions of relative social authority. With this Saturn being trine to Pluto SN in the 7th Capricorn, and trine Pluto in the 2nd Virgo, not only the Soul’s patterns of relatedness with others and sense of identity obtained through relationships (7th  House, Cap), but also its own sense of value (2nd House) were defined by dynamics of authority. The Soul would have desired to be acknowledged by its social role, and would have also been increasingly relating to others being in authority positions within society. Its own sense of values would have become dependent on social validation and/or by validation by other social authorities (the trine between Saturn and Pluto). This would have created very fixed and narrow patterns of self identity in relationships to others and to himself. This would have also set the scenario for the Soul’s downfall from any positions of social authority.

If the Pluto SN correlates to older chapters in the Soul’s evolution coming through the past symbolized by Pluto, it would be these dynamics that created the conditions for the Soul’s need to go deeper within itself (2nd House Pluto in Virgo) to critically find out from within what its real value and values were, regardless of validation by others and by society. The trine between Pluto and Saturn (PSN ruler) would indicate also that in some lives the Soul was put by others in situations of confinement and isolation. There would also be guilt because of the Soul’s prior submission to socially defined values and authorities and how this submission defined its patterns of relationships, versus creating its own value associations.
Upon a large series of lifetimes in this condition, the Soul would now require to go out of isolation in order to confront others and gain through confrontation an increasing awareness of what his values and resources are and how he can relate to others and serve others in a new way, a way not be excessively dependent on others validation from consensus point of view. 

The NN of Pluto in the 1st House Cancer would correlate to the Soul’s need to create a new series of experiences for himself, ie. not dependent on relationships with others. The Pluto NN being in Cancer would correlate to the need of de-conditioning itself from patriarchal set of values and approaches which had defined the Soul, through a search of meaning from within, by means of emotional self-relatedness.

The ruler of Pluto NN being the Moon in the 2nd House Virgo would indicate that this new set of experiences and searches of emotional nature would have the purpose for the Soul to go deeper into itself though further experiences of relative isolation and withdrawal, in order to gain increasing self sufficiency and reformulate its self-image from within. Thus, the Soul would need to keep confronting others in order to face its limitations in value associations (PPP in the 8th) thus creating new emotional experiences (PNN in the 1st Cancer) leading to further isolation though, now intending to gain self reliance and deeper knowledge of its value and resources, this fueling the purpose to keep on going toward others despite the feedback received. There would be a theme of repetition and reviewing of the past life experiences of  isolation, though, given the Moon rulership of the PNN, the need would be to integrate this experiences in a new way, this allowing in the long run not to perpetuate this isolated condition but to keep on seeking confrontation with a transformed self-image and greater self-reliance. 

Is the above analysis correct? Your feedback is most desired and appreciated.

Thank you so much, and God Bless,

Gonzalo.


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Upasika on Feb 15, 2010, 11:14 AM
Hi Rad,

Fascinating! ... showing the cause of the PPP and the wider context for any chart’s bottom.line. Thanks a lot for that.
 As it happens I have a friend who has almost the same signature as the one you used for your example, everything in the same signs and houses (except Saturn is in Virgo not Leo).
And interestingly enough the Moon (Pluto N.Node in Cancer ruler) ... is back in the 9th! in Virgo  (but not conj Pluto or Saturn).

Guess that's possibly a subtle version of keeping "one arm waving free" (but at a core Soul level) ?, reflecting a bit of residual ambivalence (which would then manifest on an ego/personality level) about following through on their intention in this lifetime of getting fully involved in discussions etc with others in urban/group situations, as indicated by the PPP (3rd house Aquarius). Would that be right?

Seeing that subtle paradox in that chart, it then occurred to me that one of the things that's really useful about this wider understanding of Pluto's evolutionary intentions in a chart, is how the intentions of the Soul (known from within itself) become implemented in a natal chart as the PPP, via the Moon and it's nodes and their rulers.
And also how the Moon and it's nodes and their rulers relate back to Pluto's nodes and their rulers.

To try and show what I mean by that, I'll use another example - an actual chart with some interesting paradoxes - (and also see how well I go !) ...

This chart has:
Pluto in Leo in 4th, Pluto's polarity point (PPP) in Aquarius in 10th
Pluto S.Node in Capricorn in 9th, ruler Saturn in Sag 8th  (and conjuncting the Moon's N.Node there too)
Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd, ruler Moon in Gem 2nd  (and conjuncting the Moon's S.Node there too)

This would correlate to a Soul that has embarked on a new evolutionary cycle, desiring to actualise itself through the development of internal security. In a nutshell this would be achieved by attaining emotional maturity, creatively establishing it's own individuality through it's own efforts, and uniting the anima and animus within itself   (Pluto Leo 4th). It would have done this in the context of having spent many lives travelling in different lands, experiencing different cultures, and expanding it's understanding of natural laws and nature itself (Pluto S.Node in 9th).

With Pluto S.Node ruler, Saturn, being in the 8th house in Sag, within each society that was lived in it would have been involved in a "hands on" way. It would correlate to someone who would learn by getting deeply involved in situations with other people (8th). For a Soul at consensus reality level, as an example, perhaps setting up business (Sat) of an entrepreneurial kind (Sag), or becoming involved in the political or judicial structure of that society at a local or national government level.  Alternatively, if the Soul was at the individuated reality stage ... they may have formed close associations with powerful people, outsiders to society, for the purposes of occult study (8th, Sag), operation of black markets (Sat, 8th) etc. If in the spiritual stage they may have joined spiritual groups for experiments with alchemy, study of scriptures etc (Sat, Sag 8th).


As the Soul experienced the limits of itself it would have desired to evolve beyond them, symbolised by Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd. This would represent a need to become less entangled in the affairs of any society and the individuals so involved, and a need to stop travelling around and to settle down more, gravitating to the relative isolation of living in just one place in order to develop a more personal self sufficiency and self reliance. To establish it's own set of values that made sense to just itself, instead of all the time incorporating the needs of other people it had attached to, into its sense of what was important. Taking care of the needs of its own self and immediate family members only.

In so doing external confrontations would occur as it withdrew from relationships of a societal and dependent nature, and internal confrontations via the insecurity it felt in then not being able to draw upon others for resources, advantage and as symbols of power ... a sense of loss of power and powerlessness would accompany the transition.

So ...stemming from these inner evolutionary desires and thus needs of the Soul, which are to move towards Cancer in 2nd house experiences (Pluto N.Node) and in turn doing that via Gemini in 2nd house experiences (Pluto N.Node ruler), a new life would be created to implement these core intentions, and in this case it is one where the PPP is in Aquarius in 10th.

And as an extension of that ... the Moon S.Node in Gem 2nd, and Moon N.Node in Sag 8th. However the Soul has also manifested in this new life the Moon conjuncting the Moon S.Node, and Saturn conjuncting the Moon N.Node. Here's where the paradoxes lie: the Soul's (Pluto's) nodal rulers, Saturn and Moon, are now each conjuncting one of the Moon's nodes in the new life !

With the Soul's (Pluto's) S.Node ruler in Sag in 8th, in theory the Soul has finished with that as a way of realising it's S.Node (Cap in 9th) intentions and is desiring to move towards Cancer in 2nd shown by Pluto N.Node, via 2nd house Gemini experiences shown by the placement of Pluto N.Node ruler, the Moon.  

Where it's aiming for in it's new life form is to realise the Aquarius 10th house archetype shown by PPP in the chart of the new life. And by doing this the Soul will be effecting it's evolutionary desire symbolised by Cancer in the 2nd house.
The life implied by PPP is one where the Soul will move again in society but in a different way to before. The intense, and possibly heavy, involvements of the 8th house from past lives give way to the more open (Aqu) and contributory manner of the 10th .Thus the person will be bringing everything they learnt (Sag), experienced (9th), and osmosed (8th) from past lives into a form (10th) that can be used in a much larger and more objective (Aqu) way in society. In other words the test will be - can they put their knowledge (Sag learning from past lives) to good use (10th) in this life in a way that benefits many people, not just themselves or others they are intimately entangled with (Plu S.Node ruler and Moon N.Node –Saturn- in 8th). Additionally they will be associating with groups of others of like mind based on broad human interests, innovative explorations and networking (Aqu) rather than the secretive and murky kinds of associations they may have involved themselves in the past (Plu S.Node ruler in 8th) and may still do (Moon N.Node in 8th) . All the while, building on the Soul’s core singular evolutionary intention and progress to date (Pluto in 4th), and a major part of it’s intentions for the future as well (Cancer in 2nd): actualising internal security.

This will be effected in the current life by a fair amount of reliving the past (paradox) as the Moon is conjunct the Moon’s S.Node in Gem, and Saturn is conjunct the Moon’s N.Node in Sag.

The Moon’s S.Node indicates the lessons the Soul has been learning before as part of actualising internal security, and being in Gemini this would have involved dynamics and the circumstances they created relating to, amongst other things, communications, thinking, study and commerce (Mercury ruling the Moon’s S.Node). This indicates that the Soul’s previous intense involvements from many lifetimes ago (Pluto S.Node ruler Saturn in 8th) had morphed into a lighter and less focussed way of relating to people in recent past lives, and that the Soul has been learning how to relate to much more diverse, and perhaps more common elements of society. This may have actually been a necessary preparatory step towards the future desire of withdrawing more from society (Pluto N.Node in Cancer 2nd) in that it may have afforded the Soul more choice in those lives, which would have been helpful on the way to coming closer to the self reliance and self sufficiency of the 2nd house. Also the Moon’s S.Node being in the 2nd house shows that the Soul has in recent lives already started learning the lessons it needs to, indicated by the Pluto’s N.Node (2nd house).

The Soul desires to move towards realisation of the Cancer in 2nd archetype (Pluto N.Node) with its ruler the Moon being instrumental in this – this is the Soul’s future. But with the Moon conjuncting the Moon’s S.Node in the current life this future process is now partially brought forward, hastened, due to the fact that experiences related to the Moon will be relived or fruited in some way (Moon conj Moon’s S.Node).

The Moon’s N.Node indicates the new way for the Soul to operate, new lessons to learn in this current (new) life that will help the Soul realise the PPP in this life, i.e to actualise self determination, discipline, social responsibility and to establish their individuality and authority within society. The lessons that will help the Soul achieve this will seem very familiar for this Soul, as they are shown by the Moon’s N.Node in Sag in 8th which it has experienced before (Plu S.Node ruler territory) and thus will remember on a Soul level.

Since Saturn is conjuncting the Moon’s N.Node and Saturn is also Pluto’s S.Node ruler, the Soul has done all of this before in previous lives (as described above). Here again there will be a lot of reliving as a result, but being at the N.Node there will be the chance to do the same things in new or better ways, to make different choices when faced with circumstances, situations and dynamics that the Soul has experienced in (perhaps quite recent) past lives.

Obviously Jupiter (Moon’s N.Node in Sag ruler) will be a key factor in what these choices will be. As examples of the extremes of the situation, if it was in the 4th or 2nd house it would strengthen the likelihood that the Soul would make choices in line with its own core inner intentions (Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd), whereas if it was in the 10th or the 9th house it may gravitate to old ways (Pluto S.Node in Cap in 9th) of dealing with similar situations encountered freshly in the new current life.

So in summary, while this Soul is embarking on a new evolutionary cycle (Pluto in 4th) it’s new current life that it has manifested is still intricately connected to relatively recent previous lives, and it will use material from those lives as part of it’s efforts to further it’s evolutionary intentions.

By realising it’s PPP it will be establishing it’s own individuality on a much more tangible basis than previously (PPP 10th house is more immediate than Pluto S.Node Cap), in a much more open way (PPP Aqu compared to Moon’s S.Node in 2nd , Pluto S.Node ruler in 8th). This in turn will prepare the Soul to come closer to it’s future desire (Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd) as it will have completed a major involvement in society in a number of varying ways, and achieved a significant amount of understanding of natural and metaphysical laws and principles. Thus it will be able to withdraw largely on it’s own terms which is a primary requisite for realising the 2nd house archetype of self sufficiency & reliance.

During the current life the person may feel that their future and past are often intertwined, with a strong feeling of déjà vu at times. It may seem they are repeating things they feel they have finished with long ago, and even in the current life may restart things that they had thought they’d put behind them long before - Soul’s (Pluto’s) nodal rulers conjunct this life’s (Moon’s) nodes.

By the end of this current life, the various kinds of involvement with people that this Soul will have had via it’s 8th (Pluto S.Node ruler, Moon N.Node) and 4th (Pluto) houses, plus Gemini (Moon S.Node) and Moon (conjunct Moon S.Node) will have taught it some very fundamental and also very varied things about people and relationships with them. This will be preparing it for a more simple Cancer orientated involvement with people in the future (Pluto N.Node in Cancer).

***************

I don’t know what you’ll make of that Rad (!), it came in a burst of inspiration, but I would really like to know if it’s any good. It’s pretty long winded and may not be appropriate. In a way I feel as if I’m going way ahead of myself here, as I always felt I haven’t really grasped working with just the Pluto house, and Moon’s nodes and rulers yet, let alone diving into things at this level.  But I’ve done it now. If it’s off the mark I’d really appreciate to know that.

Thanks, Upasika


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 15, 2010, 11:31 AM
Hi Upasika,

 You are demonstrating a very fine and keen intuitive ability to use and apply the reasoning inherent to the EA paradigm. What seemed to have just burst through you is VERY ACCURATE in what you have covered. There are of course other dimensions within all those archetypes but what you have covered thus far is very, very well reasoned and accurate. Bravo !!

 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Gonzalo on Feb 15, 2010, 01:54 PM
Hi Rad ...

It seems that you missed my post/question ... it's the last post in the previous page of this thread ...

Thank you,

God Bless,

Gonzalo.




Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Upasika on Feb 15, 2010, 05:31 PM
Thank you Rad, thats very appreciated, its such a joy to be learning all this, Upasika.


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 16, 2010, 11:48 AM
Hi Gonzalo,

     Sorry for missing your questions about this paradigm, and the example you used to try to understand it. In the symbols you used it would be more accurate to understand that this Soul, from within itself, has desired to positions of authority within a social context, a society, a tribe, a group of people, in which the Soul was responsible for supplying the needs of that group of people because of it's social position. This was reflecting the Soul's desire to be of service to a larger whole: Pluto in Virgo in relationship to it's S.Node in the 7th in Capricorn, ruled by the Saturn in Taurus in the 10th. Combined with the desire to be of service to a larger whole through the positions of social authority also reflects to Soul's desire to give to others what they have needed in order to survive: S.Node in Capricorn in the 7th, ruled by Saturn in Taurus in the 10th.

     The nature of the grand trine between his natal Pluto in Virgo in the 2nd, S.Node in the 7th, and Saturn in the 10th would mean that the Soul desired from within itself to learn how to listen to others needs in such a way as to attune itself to those needs. In so doing, the Soul then desired to give to others exactly what they needed in order to survive. Thus, the Soul would choose time frames and places to incarnate in which this underlying theme of survival was the consensus state of reality of those times. In actualizing itself in this way the Soul thus felt fulfilled and satisfied that it was able to help others based on their needs.

     Over many lifetimes the Soul then began to feel inwardly empty: Pluto in Virgo which is the current life birth symbol for the Soul. It has come to a point of evolutionary limitation in these prior desires, and the way that they manifested. Pluto in Virgo in the 2nd House.  Emptiness, feeling empty, is the archetype of Virgo. With the N.Node of Pluto in Cancer in the 1st House the Soul is desiring within itself to begin a brand new cycle of it's own evolutionary development that starts with accessing it's own emotional needs to BE GIVEN TOO: The S.Node interacting with the N.Node of Pluto in this context. In essence, the Soul has emptied itself in those lifetimes of giving to others in which survival of the whole group was on the line. It has reached a place of Soul exhaustion because of: Pluto's S.Node in Capricorn compounded by it's ruler being in Taurus in the natural Capricorn house.

     As a result the Soul is desiring personal renewal by beginning a brand new cycle in it's ongoing evolution: Pluto's  N.Node in Cancer in the 1st House.  With Pluto in Virgo in the 2nd in relation to it's N.Node it would have begun the process of ISOLATING itself from the overall environment in order to begin the process of inner renewal. In the current life it thus creates a egocentric structure, the Moon in Virgo in the 2nd, in which this Soul need to withdraw, based on where it has been, is simultaneously reflected in the Pluto in Virgo itself, where it had just left off previous to the current life, but remains to be a need of the Soul as manifested through the current life egocentric structure of itself manifesting as the Moon in Virgo in that 2nd House.

     This is where, when we begin to fill in the whole picture, to add the N and S Nodes of the Moon itself. The Soul, Pluto in Virgo in this case, is in the 2nd which of course correlates to where the Soul has been, and why, and where it has left off just previous to the current life. By establishing what has been going on within the Soul itself, Pluto and it's Nodes, their planetary rulers, the S.Node of the Moon will then correlate to specific lifetimes and the egocentric structures that the Soul has created to actualize the desires within it. The location of it's planetary ruler, aspects to it, aspects to the S.Node of the Moon, the location by House and Sign, all fill in what these past life, finite, lives have been. And all of this, in turn, of course establishes the individual context in which to understand the N.Node of Pluto by House and Sign, the natal position of Pluto, the current life Moon, and it's N.Node.

     Given that context of the past it thus establishes the reasons that the Soul needs to isolate itself. It's as if the Soul in this isolation will be rebuilding and renewing itself from within itself. It will be discovering new capacities and different dimensions of itself in this way. It will be giving to itself in this way, and it will attract others who are natural givers because the Soul desires to be given too based on where it has been. The prior context establishes this need from within the Soul, the interaction and evolution of the N.S Nodes of Pluto.

     These others will then be natural listeners who are able to evaluate what this Soul needs on a personal emotional basis in order to renew itself. Instead of being the server to others which it has done for many lives, it will desire to be served in this way: Pluto and the Moon being in Virgo in the 2nd. These others will also symbolize and reflect the specific life that the Soul is living by way of the 2nd House Pluto's polarity point into Pisces in the 8th. That Pisces polarity point trines the N.Node of Pluto itself. This means these types will be deeply and naturally psychological in nature. They will desire to penetrate to the core of themselves, as well as the core of this Soul. As a result, they will know what this Soul needs emotionally and psychologically in order to evolve from where they have  been. The natural planetary ruler of that Pisces polarity point would be Neptune. And that would then be in Scorpio in the 4th House of this chart. This reinforces the N.Node of Pluto being in Cancer, and the Soul's desire/ need to renew itself from within via it's emotional body.

     The Soul will orientate to activities that all have the intent of leading to personal Soul renewal, and discovery. Through natural evolutionary progression, given this context, the Soul will begin to emerge from this purposeful cocoon and once again begin to find new ways of integrating itself back into the world, the group, the tribe, with new roles that reflect it's own going desires to serve and to give to others what they need.

  Rad

     

     


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 16, 2010, 02:27 PM
Hi,

 To add to this post about the EA paradigm about the Soul,, Pluto, how it actualizes itself, the link to it's Nodes, it's own individual identity, ego, that evolves through time by creating finite lives to do so that have their own finite ego, the Moon, this information about the totality of the EA paradigm in this way is exactly occurring AS THE TRANSITING N.NODE OF THE MOON IS CONJUNCT THE S.NODE OF PLUTO.

 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Gonzalo on Feb 16, 2010, 08:12 PM
Hi Rad,

Thank you so much for your kind reply. What you are telling me really helps.

So, I would say this Soul given its prior exhaustion should have taken some time out of this dense plane for an overall renewal. I guess that was just not possible. It would seem that this Soul has some wrong ideas about what his involvement with spiritual life has been in prior lives; and what his reasons for guilt have been.

Hopefully this Soul will be contacting you within soon for the email five questions reading option.

Thanks again Rad,

God Bless,

Gonzalo.


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Elen on Feb 23, 2010, 07:43 PM
Hi Rad,

Thanks for that foundation perspective, it clarifies the whole bottom line of the chart.

To clarify I understand correctly, this means then that ...

- Pluto (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodes (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodal rulers (sign/house)
- aspects from all of the above to other planets (and their signs/houses - and if more info is required, also their nodes)

... are the fundamental root of any chart.


Hi Rad and All,

I am just working my way through this thread and I am wondering what relevance the ruler of Pluto's sign has, if any, with regard to understanding Pluto.  (I don't think this was addressed, but if it was please just point me to the appropriate post.)

Thanks,
Ellen


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 24, 2010, 02:50 PM
Hi Ellen,

"I am just working my way through this thread and I am wondering what relevance the ruler of Pluto's sign has, if any, with regard to understanding Pluto.  (I don't think this was addressed, but if it was please just point me to the appropriate post.)"

***************************************************************************

First, the sign that Pluto is in, i.e, Leo, Virgo, etc CONTAINS within itself the archetype of the planet that rules that sign and, thus, how the Soul desires to actualize itself. The actual House and Sign of that planet that is the ruler of the Sign that the Soul is in acts like a tributary stream that feeds the main river of the Soul. The river itself is Pluto by House and Sign location, and it's N and S Nodes with their respective planetary rulers. The tributary streams that flow into that river are the aspects by other planets to these Nodes, their planetary rulers, and Pluto itself.

 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Elen on Feb 25, 2010, 05:31 PM
Hi Ellen,

"I am just working my way through this thread and I am wondering what relevance the ruler of Pluto's sign has, if any, with regard to understanding Pluto.  (I don't think this was addressed, but if it was please just point me to the appropriate post.)"

***************************************************************************

First, the sign that Pluto is in, i.e, Leo, Virgo, etc CONTAINS within itself the archetype of the planet that rules that sign and, thus, how the Soul desires to actualize itself. The actual House and Sign of that planet that is the ruler of the Sign that the Soul is in acts like a tributary stream that feeds the main river of the Soul. The river itself is Pluto by House and Sign location, and it's N and S Nodes with their respective planetary rulers. The tributary streams that flow into that river are the aspects by other planets to these Nodes, their planetary rulers, and Pluto itself.

 Rad


Hi Rad,
I'm not quite getting this - don't quite have the feel for it yet.  Where I think I'm stuck is my habit of always looking at the ruler of a planet.  I understand that Pluto is the main factor - the river itself.  But say Pluto is in Sag in the 8th.  SN Taurus in 1st.  Jupiter's in Scorpio in the 7th.  Say 3rd stage individuated.  So maybe they've done some pretty deep psychological explorations to discover who they are within themselves and to get feedback so they can really nail down who they are (I'm not sure I'm interpreting the symbolism correctly...?)  Wouldn't the fact that Jupiter is in the 7th house be relevant, ie, that this exploration would have been done in the context of relationship? Also, Scorpio would suggest intensity in these relationships and perhaps manipulation....?


Thanks a ton,
Ellen[color]


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 26, 2010, 11:10 AM
Hi Ellen,

"I'm not quite getting this - don't quite have the feel for it yet.  Where I think I'm stuck is my habit of always looking at the ruler of a planet.  I understand that Pluto is the main factor - the river itself.  But say Pluto is in Sag in the 8th.  SN Taurus in 1st.  Jupiter's in Scorpio in the 7th.  Say 3rd stage individuated.  So maybe they've done some pretty deep psychological explorations to discover who they are within themselves and to get feedback so they can really nail down who they are (I'm not sure I'm interpreting the symbolism correctly...?)  Wouldn't the fact that Jupiter is in the 7th house be relevant, ie, that this exploration would have been done in the context of relationship? Also, Scorpio would suggest intensity in these relationships and perhaps manipulation....?"

*****************************************************************************

     The Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th, the river of the Soul, has desired to understand the WHY'S of  life itself, the causes and effects of anything, human psychology in it's fullest dimensions, its' own psychology and the causes of it, and Natural Laws of Creation itself, how people in general interpret the phenomena of life in all of its' forms and dimensions, what motivates people and why, and the sexual realities and the reasons for those realities in human nature, and so on. One the tributary streams that feeds this Soul river, with Jupiter in Scorpio in  the 7th, would correlate with the cultural anthropology of humans in diverse cultures, tribes, and societies that the Soul would contemplate in order to understand the core desires as manifesting in the 8th House Pluto. This contemplation would be fueled by reading a variety of materials, traveling to many places, and observing the diversity of peoples. The S.Node being in Taurus, in the 1st, creates and egocentric structure in which the Soul keeps itself distant and independent from people in general.  This symbolism correlates to a banyan tree that remains rooted in one place for thousands of years while the panorama of time passes it by. The banyan tree, the egocentric structure, thus is secure within it's own inner isolation as it observes and learns by all that which passes it by. On a very selective basis the Soul through it's 1st House Taurus egocentric structure would engage others in relationship, the tributary stream of the Jupiter in Scorpio in the 7th relative to Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th House, that were inwardly evaluated to be of use by the Soul for it's evolutionary intentions: needs. In turn, this would set in motion very intense and deep philosophical and psychological type discussions in which the core desires of the Soul were being met.

     In your example this would then place the evolving egocentric structure, one of the core evolutionary intentions, in the 7th House: N.Node in the 7th in Scorpio. This would then mean, that as a next step in the Soul's evolution, that it now must learn how to jump out of it's cocoon of self isolation: S.Node in Taurus in the 1st. Rather than observing in such isolation in the ways that it has before, it must now learn how to FULLY ENGAGE, emotionally and psychologically, others. The Soul intends to learn how to be in relationships with others in general in this way, and learn how to commit to being with a parter on a one to one basis. It is thus learning how to unite a core psychological and emotional paradox, the core paradox manifesting from the Soul. And that is the paradox of needing total independence and freedom relative to committing to others in general, and a partner specifically.
   

  Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Elen on Feb 27, 2010, 11:52 AM
Hi Ellen,

"I'm not quite getting this - don't quite have the feel for it yet.  Where I think I'm stuck is my habit of always looking at the ruler of a planet.  I understand that Pluto is the main factor - the river itself.  But say Pluto is in Sag in the 8th.  SN Taurus in 1st.  Jupiter's in Scorpio in the 7th.  Say 3rd stage individuated.  So maybe they've done some pretty deep psychological explorations to discover who they are within themselves and to get feedback so they can really nail down who they are (I'm not sure I'm interpreting the symbolism correctly...?)  Wouldn't the fact that Jupiter is in the 7th house be relevant, ie, that this exploration would have been done in the context of relationship? Also, Scorpio would suggest intensity in these relationships and perhaps manipulation....?"

*****************************************************************************

    The Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th, the river of the Soul, has desired to understand the WHY'S of  life itself, the causes and effects of anything, human psychology in it's fullest dimensions, its' own psychology and the causes of it, and Natural Laws of Creation itself, how people in general interpret the phenomena of life in all of its' forms and dimensions, what motivates people and why, and the sexual realities and the reasons for those realities in human nature, and so on. One the tributary streams that feeds this Soul river, with Jupiter in Scorpio in  the 7th, would correlate with the cultural anthropology of humans in diverse cultures, tribes, and societies that the Soul would contemplate in order to understand the core desires as manifesting in the 8th House Pluto. This contemplation would be fueled by reading a variety of materials, traveling to many places, and observing the diversity of peoples. The S.Node being in Taurus, in the 1st, creates and egocentric structure in which the Soul keeps itself distant and independent from people in general.  This symbolism correlates to a banyan tree that remains rooted in one place for thousands of years while the panorama of time passes it by. The banyan tree, the egocentric structure, thus is secure within it's own inner isolation as it observes and learns by all that which passes it by. On a very selective basis the Soul through it's 1st House Taurus egocentric structure would engage others in relationship, the tributary stream of the Jupiter in Scorpio in the 7th relative to Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th House, that were inwardly evaluated to be of use by the Soul for it's evolutionary intentions: needs. In turn, this would set in motion very intense and deep philosophical and psychological type discussions in which the core desires of the Soul were being met.

     In your example this would then place the evolving egocentric structure, one of the core evolutionary intentions, in the 7th House: N.Node in the 7th in Scorpio. This would then mean, that as a next step in the Soul's evolution, that it now must learn how to jump out of it's cocoon of self isolation: S.Node in Taurus in the 1st. Rather than observing in such isolation in the ways that it has before, it must now learn how to FULLY ENGAGE, emotionally and psychologically, others. The Soul intends to learn how to be in relationships with others in general in this way, and learn how to commit to being with a parter on a one to one basis. It is thus learning how to unite a core psychological and emotional paradox, the core paradox manifesting from the Soul. And that is the paradox of needing total independence and freedom relative to committing to others in general, and a partner specifically.
   

  Rad

Hi Rad,
I think I am getting this but I want to be sure.  In my example I had Jupiter (ruler of Pluto's sign) in the same house as the NN and in Scorpio, Pluto's natural sign rulership.  If it were, instead, say, in the 5th house in Virgo, would the search (Jupiter) re: the "why's" being asked by Pluto in Sag in the 8th be focused more on understanding the psychology of feelings of profound emptiness due to a sense of lack in terms of one's life purpose?  Would that now be one of the tributaries? There would still be the need to jump out of the coccoon (SN Taurus 1st/NN Libra 7th).  But would Jupiter/Virgo/5th color the nature of that coccoon (SN) simply because it rules the sign that Pluto is in?

Does this makes sense?

Ellen


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Feb 27, 2010, 01:29 PM
Hi Ellen


"I think I am getting this but I want to be sure.  In my example I had Jupiter (ruler of Pluto's sign) in the same house as the NN and in Scorpio, Pluto's natural sign rulership.  If it were, instead, say, in the 5th house in Virgo, would the search (Jupiter) re: the "why's" being asked by Pluto in Sag in the 8th be focused more on understanding the psychology of feelings of profound emptiness due to a sense of lack in terms of one's life purpose?  Would that now be one of the tributaries? There would still be the need to jump out of the coccoon (SN Taurus 1st/NN Libra 7th).  But would Jupiter/Virgo/5th color the nature of that coccoon (SN) simply because it rules the sign that Pluto is in?"

******************************************************************************

In the 3rd Stage individuated, as per your example, the answer would be yes. The nature of the cocoon would be colored by whatever House and Sign the Jupiter would be in as that tributary flows into the river of the Soul itself. In your example this would also include within the Soul a very critical self analysis of any over identification with the the egocentric word " I " which is reinforced through the specific egocentric structure the Soul has created via the S.Node in Taurus in the 1st House, the natural ARIES House. As a result, the Soul would also then be very critical of all others who were parading their egos around in a peacock like fashion. Within this, the Soul would be critically examinng the very purpose of life itself: the 5th House of course being Sun ruled..purpose. And, thus, be inwardly focused on determining it's own specific life's purpose, it's reason for incarnating in the first place. Relative to the river, the 8th House Pluto in Sagittarius, the tirbutary stream symbolized in Jupiter in Virgo in the 5th, that purpose would be linked with naturally desiring to help other Soul's fulfill their own life purposes, their reasons for being. As a result, there would be a natural attraction to the helping professions. Within all of this, the tributary stream feeding the river of the Soul is one wherein the Soul will constantly be desiring to improve itself, to focus on all of it's perceived shortcomings, and doing something about that. In turn, the Soul will natually have this focus towards others in general, and intimate others specifically. This is just some of the stuff that this tributary stream creates within the Soul itself.

 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Elen on Mar 02, 2010, 02:52 PM
Hi Ellen


"I think I am getting this but I want to be sure.  In my example I had Jupiter (ruler of Pluto's sign) in the same house as the NN and in Scorpio, Pluto's natural sign rulership.  If it were, instead, say, in the 5th house in Virgo, would the search (Jupiter) re: the "why's" being asked by Pluto in Sag in the 8th be focused more on understanding the psychology of feelings of profound emptiness due to a sense of lack in terms of one's life purpose?  Would that now be one of the tributaries? There would still be the need to jump out of the coccoon (SN Taurus 1st/NN Libra 7th).  But would Jupiter/Virgo/5th color the nature of that coccoon (SN) simply because it rules the sign that Pluto is in?"

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In the 3rd Stage individuated, as per your example, the answer would be yes. The nature of the cocoon would be colored by whatever House and Sign the Jupiter would be in as that tributary flows into the river of the Soul itself. In your example this would also include within the Soul a very critical self analysis of any over identification with the the egocentric word " I " which is reinforced through the specific egocentric structure the Soul has created via the S.Node in Taurus in the 1st House, the natural ARIES House. As a result, the Soul would also then be very critical of all others who were parading their egos around in a peacock like fashion. Within this, the Soul would be critically examinng the very purpose of life itself: the 5th House of course being Sun ruled..purpose. And, thus, be inwardly focused on determining it's own specific life's purpose, it's reason for incarnating in the first place. Relative to the river, the 8th House Pluto in Sagittarius, the tirbutary stream symbolized in Jupiter in Virgo in the 5th, that purpose would be linked with naturally desiring to help other Soul's fulfill their own life purposes, their reasons for being. As a result, there would be a natural attraction to the helping professions. Within all of this, the tributary stream feeding the river of the Soul is one wherein the Soul will constantly be desiring to improve itself, to focus on all of it's perceived shortcomings, and doing something about that. In turn, the Soul will natually have this focus towards others in general, and intimate others specifically. This is just some of the stuff that this tributary stream creates within the Soul itself.

 Rad

Hi Rad,
Thanks so much.  Your "readings" are so eloquent and make such tremendous sense.  If the person were, say, 3rd stage consensus instead of 3rd stage individuated, are you saying that Jupiter's rulership of Pluto's sign would NOT be relevant?  Or would it be that it would manifest differently, ie, as religion (identifying one's ego w/ religion, as an example)?  So, regardless of evolutionary state, it would still be a tributary, but feed in differently to a river that itself was manifesting differently...?

Thank you so much,
Ellen



Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Rad on Mar 03, 2010, 10:11 AM
HI Ellen,

"So, regardless of evolutionary state, it would still be a tributary, but feed in differently to a river that itself was manifesting differently...?"

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Yes. This is why it is so critical to understand the specific evolutionary state of any given Soul. The evolutionary state conditions the entire EA paradigm, and thus how the archetypes are orientated to.

 Rad


Title: Re: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.
Post by: Elen on Mar 03, 2010, 01:25 PM
HI Ellen,

"So, regardless of evolutionary state, it would still be a tributary, but feed in differently to a river that itself was manifesting differently...?"

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Yes. This is why it is so critical to understand the specific evolutionary state of any given Soul. The evolutionary state conditions the entire EA paradigm, and thus how the archetypes are orientated to.

 Rad

Many thanks for clearing this up, Rad.
Ellen