School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: Louie on Apr 01, 2010, 05:22 PM



Title: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Louie on Apr 01, 2010, 05:22 PM
I have been trying to incorporate the planetary nodes into my understanding of the Pluto paradigm and would like to open up a discussion on Pluto's planetary nodes. It would seem everyone walking on the planet today would have Pluto's nodes in Cancer(NN) and Capricorn(SN). This would seem to place an evolutionary emphasis on where these two signs fall in the natal chart as well as the placement of Saturn and the moon. It is understood that this must be related back to the natal placement of Pluto, the lunar nodes and the nodal rulers.

In addition, the transiting lunar nodes are in Capricorn(NN) and Cancer(SN) as well as Pluto transiting full time in Capricorn. This signature would seem to reemphasize the archetypes of Cancer and Capricorn in each individual's solar return chart for this year. Later this year Pluto will move into a conjunction with the transiting north node in Capricorn, which will be a significant signature in certain solar return charts.

Am I wrong to assume that these signatures would carry additional weight for people born with the archetypes of Cancer and Capricorn as a part of the natal Pluto Paradigm....eg, Pluto, the lunar nodes or the nodal rulers in the 4th or 10th houses? It would seem that something is trying to drive home a general point individually as well as collectively. This point would seem to revolve around issues of emotional security and authority? I would appreciate other peoples opinions on what these signatures might symbolize


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: ari moshe on Apr 01, 2010, 06:54 PM
Hi Louie,

There is a thread about this that includes basic q and a's about the planetary nodes as well as a couple chart examples.
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,163.0.html

Beyond that, I gratefully look forward to further ea learning.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Louie on Apr 02, 2010, 04:19 PM
Ari:

    Thank you for the link to the previous discussion on the planetary nodes......I had gone through that link a few times before but found it beneficial to amplify my question.

     I find it interesting that everyone living today has Pluto's nodes in Cancer and Capricorn. It is my natural inclination when confronted with such a signature to ask why that may be given the nature of the times that we live in. With pluto transiting through the sign of Capricorn, it would lead me to believe that external events happening in the would out there would more directly influence how this signature is played out in the individual charts. The lunar nodes transiting through the signs of Capricorn and Cancer would also seem to have a direct correlation to Pluto and its nodes?

     The solar return charts for the next 12 years will have Pluto in Capricorn with its polarity point in Cancer. This would seem to reinforce the energy movement from Pluto's south node in Capricorn to its north node in Cancer? I was hoping to open up some dialogue on the current transits of Pluto and the lunar nodes and how, if at all, this relates back to the natal placement of Pluto and its nodes. Hopefully this makes a little more sense than my original post.......

Louie


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Steve on Apr 02, 2010, 07:49 PM
Hi Louie

Your original "question" was well worded and seemed to contain within it the answers to the questions you were asking.

To start some discussion, Jeffrey said many times that the South Node of Pluto in Cap related back to the time period when the transition from matriarchy to patriarchy was already underway, and thus all Souls on Earth today have a natural connection to those times, or at least the energies of those times, even if they were not in human form on Earth at that time. 

Something interesting is that in 2018 transiting Pluto will be conjunct its own south node of Pluto.  We could consider what that means in terms of opening up the current version of the lessons from those times.

Keeping in mind Cancer/Cap relate to gender role assignment, and the upcoming period we are entering is associated with the beginning of the return of the Goddess.  All that will be backdrop to the solar return charts you referred to.   Clearly the male-dominated present orientation is leading to the environmental devastation of the planet.  Uranus enters Taurus in 2018/2019, and survival will necessitate radical change.  Also, here in USA, we are having a US Pluto return in 2021/2022 at 27 Cap.  Cap squares Libra (extremes) and we will have pushed everything to the maximum extremes, being forced to change from no other options remaining.


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 03, 2010, 02:43 PM
A general comment, based on Steve's post:

My own sense is that more and more people's eyes will open up to the insanity of the way things are right now.  And what I mean by that is, rather than it being just a kind of intellectual understanding, and then continuing on with the way things are, people will choose to say no to it through the choices they make in their daily lives.  They will do this because they will be ABLE to make those choices because the alternative infrastructures will be more readily accessible.  How severe the violence gets on the way, I don't know.  Also, I suspect more and more communities will empower themselves and I think this will have a huge impact over time.

Is hierarchy a Saturn archetype?  My feeling is that the communities will begin to have an impact because this whole idea of artificial hierarchy - class/wealth - based on insecurity, will begin to be seen for what it is -violence inducing.

One final comment:  I read a book some time ago called Saharasia (by James DeMeo).  It was DeMeo's doctoral thesis.  He argues that violence as we know it today originated with the formation of deserts on the earth around 4,000 BCE.  Not much time, so I'll have to be brief.  The upshot is that the psychology of the human psyche, especially the male psyche changed in response to the conditions of scarcity.  This resulted in the cultures of violence that we now live with.  Perhaps we now have the chance to heal ourselves deeply in this regard.

These are just some of my thoughts.



Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 03, 2010, 02:52 PM
PS - re: my above post.  Not meaning to blame men.  Just stating what I recall of DeMeo's thesis.  Obviously, the practice of violence is not limited to men.  And it is clear that there are many men who practice peace.

Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Lucius on Apr 03, 2010, 07:01 PM
Interesting - especially in connection to manmade deserts, ie, agriculture.  I also find that a fair amount of patriarchal heirarchal type thinking arises in conjunction with agriculture based cultures.  Hunter/gatherers, even today, maintain a balance within natural law.



Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Gonzalo on Apr 04, 2010, 08:04 AM
Hi Louie and all ...

I have been thinking on your question during these days ... my few thoughts are as follows:

Around year 375 a.D. Pluto SN moved again into Capricorn.  Around year 600 Pluto NN moved into Cancer. Thus, the nodes of Pluto have been in Capricorn/Cancer for most of the Pisces Age beginning on 100 a.D. At the time when Jesus was crucified Neptune was in Capricorn. When the SN of Pluto moved into Capricorn, Neptune was in Pisces and Uranus was in Virgo. One of the fundamental lessons Jesus came to teach was to worship God within, versus an external God. I think that Jesus was crucified with the approval and/or request of the very same people in Jerusalem who had received him with acclaim five days before. These people were dependent on the idea of an external savior, and an external authority because they were unable to assume responsibility for their own actions. They needed to follow someone, though, they would not follow anybody beyond where they already were. Thus, they went one step forward, and then two steps back. This search for an external “father “, an external God and the idea of hierarchy was set in motion with patriarchy. It meant that people preferred to obey an external authority instead of listening to their own Soul, and thus, to avoid their own responsibility. Orphanhood leading to insecurity, insecurity leading to submission to an external order. Given this background, whether the SN or the NN of the Moon are in Cancer, the lesson of internal security remains outstanding. This is especially true at a time when the Pisces Age is coming to a conclusion. “Mothering” leading to responsibility, maturation grounded on nurturing.

Look forward to reading what others post on this topic.

God Bless,

Gonzalo 


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Gonzalo on Apr 04, 2010, 10:27 AM
... also, when Jesus was crucified the Nodes of Neptune were in Capricorn/Cancer ... NN at 18° Cancer  and SN at 22° Capricorn ...


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 05, 2010, 03:40 PM
Interesting - especially in connection to manmade deserts, ie, agriculture.  I also find that a fair amount of patriarchal heirarchal type thinking arises in conjunction with agriculture based cultures.  Hunter/gatherers, even today, maintain a balance within natural law.



Hi Lucius,

Yes, if I remember correctly, Riane Eisler, commenting on DeMeo's work, speculated that perhaps it was the practice of agriculture that created the formation of deserts.  I haven't looked into much of this in a number of years, so I don't know if there's been more work/theorizing/hypothesizing about it...

Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Louie on Apr 05, 2010, 06:26 PM
It was interesting to track the current cycle of Saturn and Pluto back to its original conjunction on November 8th, 1982 at 27 and change of Libra. The nodes at that time were at 5'28" Cancer(NN) and Capricorn(SN). This coincides with Reagan's decision to support the Mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union giving rise to Osama bin Laden.

First waxing square between these two happens Jan 01, 1994 with Saturn at 27'06" of Aquarius and Pluto at 27'06" of Scorpio. Formed in 1994, the Taliban began with only a few followers, mostly religious students who fought with the Mujahideen in the war against the Soviets and who were schooled in Islamic seminaries (madrasahs) in Pakistan. These students, or seekers, as they are referred to in the documents, wanted to rid Afghanistan of the instability, violence, and warlordism that had been plaguing the country since the defeat and withdrawal of the Soviets in 1989.

Full oppostion between these two happens on Aug 05, 2001 with Saturn at 12'37" of Gemini and Pluto at 12'37" of Sagittarius. Transiting nodal axis at 5'49" Cancer(NN) and Capricorn(SN). Much has been said about the different planetary alignments on 9/11 so I will leave this as another one to ponder but this was our ticket back into Afghanistan.

Waning square of Jan 31st coincides with president O'bama's decision to commit significant troops to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban. Saturn at 4'21" Libra and Pluto at 4'21"Capricorn with the nodes at 21'02" Capricorn(NN) and south node at 21'02 Cancer(SN).

 




Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Louie on Apr 06, 2010, 03:09 PM
The next conjunction of Saturn and Pluto will happen on Jan. 12, 2020 at 22'46" of Capricorn. At that time the nodes will once again be in Cancer(NN) and Capricorn(SN) @ 8'24"....quite a cosmic dance!

Something tells me the current cycle we are in is more based on relationships being that the original conjunction was in Libra. With a waning square between these two I think many current relationships will come under the microscope and either change or be ended. An example of this is the relationship of the United States and Israel, which in my opinion is in a VERY unhealthy balance of unquestioning support of one for the other.......part of this problem falls on how our own government forms relationships with large corporate interests and lobby groups (AIPAC in particular).

Afghanistan is just another example of propping up corrupt warlords and drug dealers as government officials........when will we ever learn these types of "relationships" never work and usaully end in disaster.

On a more personal scale, forming relationships that promote emotional independence and personal responsibility while contributing to each other's continued evolutionary growth. This applies to our careers as well as our own personal relationships......who are we working for and is this "relationship" contributing to society in positive way? Are we just collecting a paycheck to buy more material things?


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 06, 2010, 03:23 PM
The next conjunction of Saturn and Pluto will happen on Jan. 12, 2020 at 22'46" of Capricorn. At that time the nodes will once again be in Cancer(NN) and Capricorn(SN) @ 8'24"....quite a cosmic dance!

Something tells me the current cycle we are in is more based on relationships being that the original conjunction was in Libra. With a waning square between these two I think many current relationships will come under the microscope and either change or be ended. An example of this is the relationship of the United States and Israel, which in my opinion is in a VERY unhealthy balance of unquestioning support of one for the other.......part of this problem falls on how our own government forms relationships with large corporate interests and lobby groups (AIPAC in particular).

Afghanistan is just another example of propping up corrupt warlords and drug dealers as government officials........when will we ever learn these types of "relationships" never work and usaully end in disaster.

On a more personal scale, forming relationships that promote emotional independence and personal responsibility while contributing to each other's continued evolutionary growth. This applies to our careers as well as our own personal relationships......who are we working for and is this "relationship" contributing to society in positive way? Are we just collecting a paycheck to buy more material things?

Hi Louie,

This makes a lot of sense to me.  Could our relationship to mother earth also fall into this category?

Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Louie on Apr 06, 2010, 06:24 PM
Hello Ellen!

     I think this definitely applies to the relationship between humans and Mother Earth.......the movie AVATAR is an excellent example of this idea slowly permeating into the consciousness. Watching that movie was a spiritual experience for me personally and James Cameron deserves a special award for being able to beautifully convey everything that's important in life!

     The real earth work may be coming with the next conjunction in Capricorn in 2020? We are already seeing some of the results of Pluto in an earth sign with earthquakes......I am wondering as Uranus moves out of Pisces and into a fire sign whether Volcanos will start to flare more often?


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Wendy on Apr 06, 2010, 10:15 PM
Thanks Louie for your post.  I have been reading along without commenting, though I am deeply interested in the Cancer/Capricorn axis, as many of us are, now especially.

Gonzalopan, I really enjoyed reading your post, I have looked for this data but didn't have the astrological data or resources to find it.  

Do you know or have ideas of when Jesus was born or Mary Magdalane?

Around year 375 a.D. Pluto SN moved again into Capricorn.  Around year 600 Pluto NN moved into Cancer. Thus, the nodes of Pluto have been in Capricorn/Cancer for most of the Pisces Age beginning on 100 a.D.

At the time when Jesus was crucified Neptune was in Capricorn. When the SN of Pluto moved into Capricorn, Neptune was in Pisces and Uranus was in Virgo.

Help me understand this if you will:  neptune (higher love) in capricorn (structure, format) when Jesus died--when did the SN move into Capricorn? afterwards or before when he began his teachings?

One of the fundamental lessons Jesus came to teach was to worship God within, versus an external God.

I think that Jesus was crucified with the approval and/or request of the very same people in Jerusalem who had received him with acclaim five days before. These people were dependent on the idea of an external savior, and an external authority because they were

unable to assume responsibility for their own actions. They needed to follow someone, though, they would not follow anybody beyond where they already were. Thus, they went one step forward, and then two steps back.

This search for an external “father “, an external God and the idea of hierarchy was set in motion with patriarchy.

Which is when the Capricorn archetype became an externalized function linked to a masculine planet rather than feminine?

It meant that people preferred to obey an external authority instead of listening to their own Soul, and thus, to avoid their own responsibility.

Orphanhood leading to insecurity, insecurity leading to submission to an external order.

Given this background, whether the SN or the NN of the Moon are in Cancer, the lesson of internal security remains outstanding. This is especially true at a time when the Pisces Age is coming to a conclusion. “Mothering” leading to responsibility, maturation grounded on nurturing.

Look forward to reading what others post on this topic.

God Bless,

Gonzalo  

Thank you.


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 07, 2010, 10:08 AM
Hello Ellen!

     I think this definitely applies to the relationship between humans and Mother Earth.......the movie AVATAR is an excellent example of this idea slowly permeating into the consciousness. Watching that movie was a spiritual experience for me personally and James Cameron deserves a special award for being able to beautifully convey everything that's important in life!

     The real earth work may be coming with the next conjunction in Capricorn in 2020? We are already seeing some of the results of Pluto in an earth sign with earthquakes......I am wondering as Uranus moves out of Pisces and into a fire sign whether Volcanos will start to flare more often?

Hi Louie,

I also thought Avatar was a beautiful movie....

RE: Uranus moving into Aries.  I watched a documentary on Nostradamus (The Lost Book of Nostradamus) and one of the people who study his prophesies said that Nostradamus prophesied fire instead of water as the catastrophe coming our way.  (Not sure what people on this MB think of Nostradamus, but I thought this prediction resonated well with the symbolism of Uranus in Aries.)

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 07, 2010, 04:48 PM
The next conjunction of Saturn and Pluto will happen on Jan. 12, 2020 at 22'46" of Capricorn. At that time the nodes will once again be in Cancer(NN) and Capricorn(SN) @ 8'24"....quite a cosmic dance!


Hi All

Given Steve's earlier post, in which he states that Pluto will be conjunct its own SN in 2018 and that Uranus will enter Taurus in 2018, I find Louie's quote above really interesting.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?  Perhaps, having gone through the (very literal) fire, collectively speaking, we will finally see the origins of the endless quagmire we are in re: relationships of all kinds.  Then there will be the chance to rebuild.  How total will the destruction have to be first?  Will the population be radically reduced?

Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Gonzalo on Apr 08, 2010, 09:22 AM
Hi Ellen,

"How total will the destruction have to be first?  Will the population be radically reduced?"

None of this is fated to occur. All will depend on the collective consciousness and collective choices made about the current imbalance between men and Gaia. The accuracy of prophecies such as Nostradamus' does not imply that they will necessarily become true. Their purpose is to induce an awareness of the potential consequences of human collective actions. JWG writes extensively about this time frame and also about Nostradamus in Pluto II, Chapter 11-Pluto in Sagittarius.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

Gonzalo.


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 08, 2010, 01:27 PM
Hi Ellen,

"How total will the destruction have to be first?  Will the population be radically reduced?"

None of this is fated to occur. All will depend on the collective consciousness and collective choices made about the current imbalance between men and Gaia. The accuracy of prophecies such as Nostradamus' does not imply that they will necessarily become true. Their purpose is to induce an awareness of the potential consequences of human collective actions. JWG writes extensively about this time frame and also about Nostradamus in Pluto II, Chapter 11-Pluto in Sagittarius.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Gonzalo.  I'll check out that chapter.

Peace,
Ellen

God Bless,

Gonzalo.


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Steve on Apr 09, 2010, 06:39 PM
Quote
"How total will the destruction have to be first?  Will the population be radically reduced?"

None of this is fated to occur. All will depend on the collective consciousness and collective choices made about the current imbalance between men and Gaia. The accuracy of prophecies such as Nostradamus' does not imply that they will necessarily become true. Their purpose is to induce an awareness of the potential consequences of human collective actions. JWG writes extensively about this time frame and also about Nostradamus in Pluto II, Chapter 11-Pluto in Sagittarius.

Hi - Sorry to have to add that since JWG wrote Chapter 11 in Pluto Vol 2, many many collective choices have been made.  What Gonzalopan stated is true, however human activities have affected Gaia to the point that some of the damage is no longer reversible.  And, every time there is an international climate summit, the proposals for what will be done are about a quarter of the minimum needed to really change things, and instead of being put into place immediately, they are phased in for ten to twenty years in the future.  And by the time 10 to 20 years has gone by, next to nothing has actually changed, and another international conference is held, with the same basic results.

Unfortunately the handwriting is now on the wall.  Global temperatures, and wind and precipitation patterns are rapidly shifting.   This is going to effect the world's major food producing regions.  The number of people on the planet is at an all time high and rapidly growing.  We will be seeing vast shortages of food and fresh water.  This will be exacerbated by the new global corporate reality, who sees these scarcities as opportunities to reap vast new fortunes, at the expense of people's lives.  Look at what Wall Street is getting away with in the USA, for example.

We are not entering a fun era on earth.  In my opinion the only thing that is up to free choice at this point is the extent of the upcoming difficulties.  There is no longer an way we will avoid all of it - we have gone too far.

What we will see, as this unfolds, are the dual influences of patriarchy and matriarchy - those who want to advance their own interests through exploiting the suffering at the expense of others; and those who want to band together and help their fellow humans and other species through the hardships, as much as possible.   These two approaches to human life will increasingly be colliding.  People will be forced off the fence through circumstantial necessity.  Everyone will have to choose their approach.  We must wait and see to find which approach prevails.  The answer to that is still up in the air.

This is not intended to scare, but to suggest people look closely at what is going on, the directions things are going in, and start thinking about where and how to prepare for the coming changes.  Again, not from a place of fear but from a place of awakeness.  There will be many opportunities to evolve spiritually through the difficulties.


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Rad on Apr 10, 2010, 09:58 AM
Adding to what Steve said:

 One of the consequences of 'global warming', caused by human activities that violate Natural Laws, is that the warming climate causes an acceleration of the Natural Law of mutation where mutation is a consequence of the survival instinct in all forms of life. Thus, the forms of life that are called bacterias, viruses, and fungus have begun this acceleration of mutations in order to survive. This will continue to accelerate at such a pace that the humans capacity to keep designing new drugs to counteract this will not be able to keep up with the accelerated pace of the evolving/ mutating viruses, bacterias, and fungus.

 This will create, progressively, pan epidemics that will have the affect of killing a tremendous amount of people all over the globe. This in combination, as Steve pointed out, with increasing scarcity of fresh water sources, the dehydration of increasing amounts of land affecting food production, will cause cataclysmic circumstances for an ever increasing amount of human beings on this planet.

 With Pluto in Capricorn, in the context of now, the EARTH REALITY of now, the very nature of the structural reality at every level will be metamorphosed through varying degrees of cataclysms. And those cataclysms will occur as a consequence of CHOICES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE MADE IN OUR COLLECTIVE FUTURE. The essence of those choices comes down to the fact that the Natural Law, set in motion by the Creator, of 'giving, sharing, and inclusion' has been perversely altered to 'exclusion and self interest'. It is this perversion, at a root level, that has been, and will remain to be, the cause of all kinds of cataclysmic events for whole groupings of people that has already occurred, and will be occuring.

 The transit of Pluto through Capricorn will move over it's own S.Node, as well as the S.Nodes of Saturn and Jupiter. It is intended to create increasingly glaring and shocking events, events that can have cataclymic consequences due to choices made, in order to get the attention of human beings so that other choices, choices in alignment with the Natural Laws of God/ess, can be made. And those choices either way will determine, Capricorn, how all of us will be able to live our personal lives, Cancer, on this planet: Earth. Our home.

 Rad

 


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 10, 2010, 03:39 PM
Hi Steve & Rad,

Thank you for your posts.  I'm wondering if either of you have any thoughts re: the recent Universal Health Care bill in the U.S.  I'm asking this from the perspective of someone who does not, for the most part, utilize mainstream western medicine.  I use alternative medicine and continue to orient more and more to spiritual practice.  With the likelihood of pandemics to come, I am concerned that the response in the US will be mandatory vaccinations and such.  Currently, they are still voluntary, but the push is pretty strong.  In the hospital I work at (at least for another week), participation in flu vaccination programs progressed from voluntary to "mandatory" participation (but participation included signing a form that said you were choosing not to be vaccinated).  The alternative practitioners I have worked with for the most part consider vaccinations to be just more toxins added to the body, thus weakening it further.  For me this was a real ethical quandary: on the one hand, my own health, while improving, was compromised, and I was not wanting to participate.  On the other hand, I was working with people whose immune systems were wiped out as part of their treatment.  Thus, if I did get the flu, before I realized I was sick I could have passed onto a very sick person a bug that could have killed them, given their weakened state.  When I was extremely sick, I got the vaccinations, as I felt the benefits outweighed the risks for myself, given my own weakened state.  (Frankly, I hadn't thought about the impact on the patients I was working with.)  As I got healthier, I became more and more troubled by the dilemma (finally realizing there was one) - sometimes getting vaccinated, sometimes not. 

Please don't misunderstand me:  I am not opposed to universal health care.  I think we need it and it is a good thing.  But I think, also, we have a narrow conception of what health and well-being are.  It seems to me that as we (collectively) continue to mistreat our bodies (in addition to the rapidly mutating bacteria/viruses that Rad mentioned), we will be (collectively) more and more susceptible to these things, but mainstream America does not seem to be making the connection.  Well, I could go on, but will end here, instead.  I guess my question is really about our collective response to these health issues that will be confronting us more and more.  Any thoughts?

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: ari moshe on Apr 10, 2010, 04:15 PM
Hi Wendy,

Quote
Do you know or have ideas of when Jesus was born or Mary Magdalane?

In the chart examples of Pluto 1, JWG offers a version of Jesus's chart. The source is Donald Jacobs.
I can't find one for MM either. My Goddess, I would love to see her chart!




Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 13, 2010, 01:20 PM
Hi Steve & Rad,

Thank you for your posts.  I'm wondering if either of you have any thoughts re: the recent Universal Health Care bill in the U.S.  I'm asking this from the perspective of someone who does not, for the most part, utilize mainstream western medicine.  I use alternative medicine and continue to orient more and more to spiritual practice.  With the likelihood of pandemics to come, I am concerned that the response in the US will be mandatory vaccinations and such.  Currently, they are still voluntary, but the push is pretty strong.  In the hospital I work at (at least for another week), participation in flu vaccination programs progressed from voluntary to "mandatory" participation (but participation included signing a form that said you were choosing not to be vaccinated).  The alternative practitioners I have worked with for the most part consider vaccinations to be just more toxins added to the body, thus weakening it further.  For me this was a real ethical quandary: on the one hand, my own health, while improving, was compromised, and I was not wanting to participate.  On the other hand, I was working with people whose immune systems were wiped out as part of their treatment.  Thus, if I did get the flu, before I realized I was sick I could have passed onto a very sick person a bug that could have killed them, given their weakened state.  When I was extremely sick, I got the vaccinations, as I felt the benefits outweighed the risks for myself, given my own weakened state.  (Frankly, I hadn't thought about the impact on the patients I was working with.)  As I got healthier, I became more and more troubled by the dilemma (finally realizing there was one) - sometimes getting vaccinated, sometimes not. 

Please don't misunderstand me:  I am not opposed to universal health care.  I think we need it and it is a good thing.  But I think, also, we have a narrow conception of what health and well-being are.  It seems to me that as we (collectively) continue to mistreat our bodies (in addition to the rapidly mutating bacteria/viruses that Rad mentioned), we will be (collectively) more and more susceptible to these things, but mainstream America does not seem to be making the connection.  Well, I could go on, but will end here, instead.  I guess my question is really about our collective response to these health issues that will be confronting us more and more.  Any thoughts?

Peace,
Ellen

Hi,

I thought my question above might have been missed... Or perhaps it can't be answered?.... or is not appropriate to the MB?........

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Steve on Apr 14, 2010, 04:57 AM
Hi Ellen

Quote
I thought my question above might have been missed... Or perhaps it can't be answered?.... or is not appropriate to the MB?........

First, it's a completely appropriate question for the message board.

You found yourself in a dilemma where all the possible responses to your question were imperfect.  To take the vaccination was unsatisfactory to you, and then as you looked more deeply into the ramifications on others, not taking the vaccination also became unsatisfactory.  So there is the paradox.  And your personal quandary is one that, I would say, is ultimately is going to be faced by millions of other people as these natural occurrences proceed.

What better answer can anyone here offer to the quandary you found yourself in and sought to resolve?  There is no perfect answer.  At this time, those are the only choices available.  You had to pick one, and as/if this proceeds so will others - same dilemma.  Survival is the first priority.  At times none of available options will be adequate. 

If there is a pandemic, some health care workers will contract the illness through the course of their work.  For personal survival and to avoid infecting others, they will have to take vaccines they may fundamentally disagree with.  Some will be saved as a result of taking the vaccine, while some will quite likely get sick or even die as a result of taking the vaccines.  Who can predict?

It come down to the same thing as everything else, all one can do is step forward, one step at a time, listen deeply within to intuition and inner guidance, and then do what feels like the right thing to do, knowing its possible that may turn out to not have been the best thing. 

This is the human condition.  When we talk about the inherent sense of feeling small in 1st stage spiritual, this is an example of it.  This is the way it is.  Past a certain point we are powerless to do anything about it.  We have to make our best choices, and then learn to accept whatever may happen.  Some possible outcomes can be pretty hard to accept, from the vantage point of being encased in a human body.

With the coming times, the best response will probably be to band together with like minded Souls, all of whom seek to do the best they can.   In its own small way this message board is an example of that, as we consider things from perspectives that are well out of mainstream consensus reality. 

Don't know what more to say.
Steve


Title: Re: Pluto's Nodes
Post by: Elen on Apr 14, 2010, 05:52 AM
Hi Steve,

Thanks so much for your reply - and for your compassion.  What you wrote really helps put things in perspective for me.

Peace,
Ellen