School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: mountainheather on Aug 24, 2010, 08:26 PM



Title: Guru-disciple path
Post by: mountainheather on Aug 24, 2010, 08:26 PM
Hi all,
I recently read Autobiography of a Yogi and am now reading The Essence of Self-Realization.  I am wondering about the necessity of having a guru in developing spiritually. My impression is Yogananda would endorse this approach.  Is this way of spiritual development (guru-disciple)natural law? Also what in the chart (in addition to their evolutionary stage)would indicate the type of spiritual path a soul could choose to align with, optimize their efforts so to speak.  Thanks, and warm blessings to you all. Heather   


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Rad on Aug 25, 2010, 08:36 AM
Hi Heather,

 Yes, the very nature of Natural Laws on this Earth correlate to the need for almost all Souls, at certain points in their own evolutionary journey, to have a guru or teacher that is more evolved than them self. This has been true since humans have been on this Earth. Long, long, ago when humans were living in small,  nomadic, groups there was always one who was considered to be the Shaman, the keeper of the spirit, that guided that small group. And certain Souls within those small groups would also become an apprentice to such a figure, such a Soul. So long, long ago even before there were such things as monasteries, formal religions, what came to be called gurus, there was this natural structure within which humans organized themselves. The function of a guru, or a shaman, etc, is 'guide' the inner development, evolution, of the Souls who have formed a relationship to such a Soul. As a Soul evolves within by progressively expanding it's consciousness to embrace the various spheres of the Universal there are many potential pitfalls that can occur that can destabilize the Soul, to cause confusion, because the very center of gravity within it's consciousness changes from the immediacy of the ego, to the Soul itself. And it is this very transition of the center of gravity within a Soul's consciousness that the function and role of the Guru, teacher, or shaman is for.

And there are many  different 'types' of gurus, shamans, and teachers to reflect the individual natures/ needs of any given Soul. The birth chart of any Soul reflects their core natures: what types of Souls that they are. One of the beauties of EA is being able to determine the nature of any given Soul.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Oliver Fred on Aug 25, 2010, 11:25 PM
Hi Rad,

I wanted to ask if the archetype of guru/shaman to disciple is always within the same gender. I've been reading "Measuring the Night Vol.2" and from what I got it was mostly a YES answer, but also sometimes not always with the same gender. I ask of course to see if there is a way to distinguish how to tell in the birthchart, which one is appropriate. For instance, with gender switching involved. Thanks for any input. Take care.

-Oliver Fred


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Rad on Aug 26, 2010, 08:26 AM
Hi Oliver Fred,

 No, there is no Natural Law that correlates to the guru/shaman relationship and same gender. None. One of the core Natural Laws is to share, give, and include. Thus, to exclude based on gender would be a violation of Natural Laws. Any given Soul is NATURALLY drawn to another Soul who is at the evolutionary level of a guru or shaman. Whatever that gender is that such a Soul is drawn too, naturally, has it's own reasons that are unique to the nature of that Soul. Of course, that can include gender switching dynamics as well as many, many other dynamics that are the determinants of these natural attractions to a Soul who is serving in the capacity of a guru, shaman, and are natural teachers.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: mountainheather on Aug 26, 2010, 08:45 AM
Hi Rad,
Thank you for your reply.
When you say there are many types of guru ,shaman ,teachers would that person have perhaps mastered their discipline (for example martial arts, herbalism, hands on healing, counselling etc), but they are using this as an avenue to point the way home spiritually for their students?  So generally speaking the teacher can take many forms but the intent is the same or is it not so simplistic as that ?
Thanks, blessings, Heather


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Rad on Aug 26, 2010, 10:58 AM
Hi Heather,
 
 The answer is yes, and it is as 'simple' as that.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: bluesky on Aug 26, 2010, 03:44 PM
Is martial arts mastery considered a spiritual path?


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: mountainheather on Aug 26, 2010, 05:22 PM
Thanks Rad!
Heather


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Steve on Aug 26, 2010, 06:04 PM
Is martial arts mastery considered a spiritual path?

Hi Bluesky

an obvious answer that comes to me is, it depends on where the teacher (and student) is inwardly oriented.  if their inner motivation is using the martial art as a way to develop discipline in deepening their inner connection to the spiritual, then yes.  if the orientation is more like becoming the most proficient, strongest, best, most concentrated etc martial arts master or student that ever lived, then no.  that is an egocentric orientation, not a spiritual one.  

an issue in modern times is people who come from the egocentric orientation have often learned all the language that goes with the spiritual orientation, and often have thoroughly convinced themselves that is where they are at.  so an undiscerning student may hear the spiritual words and believe the teacher comes from a place other than where they actually come from.  in those cases at times they will feel in their gut a disconnect between the teacher's words and how being around this teacher actually feels .  (Some teachers genuinely desire to come from that place, they just are not there yet. And have convinced themselves they are further along than they really are).  Jeffrey said many times the true teacher only points the way home, never to themselves.  That is one way to determine if the martial arts teacher is truly on a spiritual path.
Steve


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: bluesky on Aug 26, 2010, 06:44 PM
Hi Steve, thanks for responding.  It sounds to me like you are describing the difference between an individuated and a spiritual orientation towards martial arts.  I have been curious about this, also ind. v. spiritual orientation towards yoga - yoga teachers focused on the body vs. those encouraging a connection between mind and body.  Most of all, which "arts" can be considered spiritual and why. Your answer definitely helps.


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: ari moshe on Aug 26, 2010, 06:57 PM
Hi all,

My yoga teacher starts off almost every class reminding us that we have showed up not because we are trying to look good, or get on the yoga journal cover, or become stronger, healthier. But because we can help remove more suffering from this world through our practice. He reminds us to treat each asana as a meditation in and of itself and to surrender the fruits of all our efforts. This is an authentic spiritual teacher.

So many yoga teachers and teachers of the like are NOT about the Truth. That's the case in most situations I feel. Bluesky, I see it that way too- yoga can be consensus, individuated or spiritual.

Authentic spiritual teaching can take place in ANY context. Literally, for GOD's sake, JWG did that with astrology- which until he came along, was not really available as a spiritual path (it was, for the most part, an individuated state science). Socrates in the book "way of the peaceful warrior" did that with ordinary living... and gymnastics.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: bluesky on Aug 26, 2010, 07:28 PM
Hi all,

Ari, thanks for your input.  I remember reading an article online with a yoga master (one of the guys who was credited with bringing it to the west, so he was considered the "real deal") and he lamented the fact that so many people were using yoga as a means to get what he called the "hard body" look! and it didn't seem to mean anything to them other than that.

I have especially been thinking about martial arts recently because I was wondering "what about spiritual warriors?" - they must exist, how do they practice, etc. Maybe I'm thinking too literally about it, but there must be people going through the spiritual stage with a physical "edge", and this would be a way of channelling it.  I'm thinking of David Carradine in Kung Fu.


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Elen on Aug 26, 2010, 08:02 PM
Hi bluesky,

I saw a program the other night about a Shaolin master.  His physical mastery was something else.  Yet, as much as he did delight in his ability to withstand hits and his ability to create force with his body, he stated repeatedly that it was about mastering Chi and that it was spiritual practice.  I could not tell from the program how deep his own spiritual orientation is; the program itself was focusing on his physical prowess.  And, as I said, he seemed to clearly delight in that.  But I don't think delighting in something necessarily means one's relationship to it is not spiritual.  Indeed, that seems like a patriarchal split to say that somehow what is spiritual cannot be delighted in.  Whatever his own spiritual orientation, it seems to me that even just the fact that this is being said, even if it might not be being lived up to, suggests that it might be in fact rooted in that - that there are people practicing it in a way that develops them spiritually.

The movie, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon also comes to mind.  I know it's just a movie, but I thought it did a wonderful job of depicting martial arts as primarily spiritual practice.

I think you can also see this in regular old sports.  I'm thinking of Dan Melman, the gymnist.  He encountered a guru while in college that completely transformed him and his relationship to his sport.  He wrote a book about it, and I know there is also a movie.  I can't remember the name of either, but I'm pretty sure I have his name right, so I'm sure you could find it.  I'd be happy to look into for you, though, if you're interested.  I find his story to be inspiring.



Ellen

PS The Shaolin master is originally from China, now living in New York.  The program was exploring his ability to deliver a deadly force with his fist from only 1 inch away from his target (the one-inch punch).  He is a pretty small guy. I can't think of his name, but I'd be happy to see if I could come up with it if you're interested.


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: bluesky on Aug 26, 2010, 08:51 PM
Ellen - I checked out shaolin at wikipedia and found David Carradine's character included in it! apparently he was a Shaolin monk on that show...the article contrasted both the internal and external modes of shaolin.  The way you described the man you saw on the tv program makes me think of someone who is totally in the zone.  I'm going to try and find it YouTube, maybe they have it.

I guess my question would be, is it possible for a person to evolve to the spiritual stage and have a streak of violence, which could be transformed by a spiritual practice such as martial arts.


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Steve on Aug 26, 2010, 10:22 PM
Quote
I guess my question would be, is it possible for a person to evolve to the spiritual stage and have a streak of violence, which could be transformed by a spiritual practice such as martial arts.

yes


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: ari moshe on Aug 26, 2010, 10:29 PM
Bluesky, you might really like that Dan Millman book, which is the same one I referred to "Way of the Peaceful Warrior".

Quote
I guess my question would be, is it possible for a person to evolve to the spiritual stage and have a streak of violence, which could be transformed by a spiritual practice such as martial arts.

To address that question, astrologically there are so many possible paths depending on the karmic and evolutionary condition of a soul. For example, I know a soul who is in the spiritual state who has the sn in Aquarius in the 1st house, squaring Uranus in Scorpio in the 9th. Prior to this life he has trained extensively in martial arts- possibly with special roles to fulfill, traveling long distances, sneaking into places, doing spy work etc. In this lifetime, he knows how to fight. Strangers sense his energy and try to pick fights with him all the time. He has learned to use his martial knowledge only when absolutely neccesary. He does not ever want to be violent towards anyone. He is currently in a committed relationship and raising a family. So in this case he has learned to transmute his anger by way of opening his heart to being a householder, being a partner, and letting go of the solo path.

On the flip side-
I just counseled a soul who has Pluto in Libra in the 10th, NN in Scorpio in the 1st, with Neptune in Sag in the 1st (not conjunct) which squares Neptune in Virgo in the 9th. What did I recommend to her? That she explore intensely rigorous physical activities such as Kundalini yoga, and or martial arts.  She has one hell of a lot of suppressed anger and a karmic pattern of self destruction/masochism.
Martial arts would be a very appropriate spiritual practice for her, which in this case would help her learn how to be defensive in a way that is natural and necessary. This would allow enable her to become more responsive and active in pursuing her own dharma, on her own.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Elen on Aug 27, 2010, 06:04 AM
Hi bluesky,

To follow up on what Ari wrote, I was also thinking of "The Art of War".  I have read only bits of it, but more have heard comments about it here and there.  Really, one's first effort is how to AVOID war.  If you think about that, that in itself leads the way to a very profound spiritual practice.  Also, it has always been my understanding that use of one's martial arts skills - the direct physical aspect of it - is meant to be a last resort.  Again, that to me would suggest the possibility of profound spiritual practice.  Also, with regard to the body itself, I think there is a middle way between complete narcissism and complete denial.  Our bodies are a gift.  Caring for it and enjoying it I don't see as contrary to a spiritual focus.  What Ari wrote about his Yoga teacher's reminder of why they are doing Yoga really struck me.  That is exactly what I have been trying to get to on my own journey down the "personal trainer" path.  Just couldn't put it into words and couldn't quite contact it because I hadn't heard it spoken (thank you, Ari!) and it is definitely not the norm in the field.  But that doesn't make it not a possibility...
Peace,
Ellen

PS Thanks, Ari, for Dan's correct last name and the name of his book.


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Elen on Aug 27, 2010, 06:37 AM
Hi bluesky,

Here's a link to a video of Shi Yang Ming.  I definitely think it shows his spiritual orientation.

http://www.usashaolintemple.org/video-onestepbeyond/

Ellen


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: bluesky on Aug 27, 2010, 03:07 PM
Steve and Ari, thanks for your feedback.  Ellen, thanks for the link.

 :)


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: PatriciaW on Sep 08, 2010, 07:56 PM
Oh I just read this... this has been an area of intrest to me as it shows up so much in regression work. In reality if anyone has been incaranting in say the last 4,000 years much of the history of humannity has been one of warring. In my view we are all working thru the collective wounds of war. It seems to me that warriors go thru a long karmic history with war with a few distinct phases that can play out thru a series of lifetimes. A turing point lifetime seems to be one of disillusionment, where the warrior or soldier sees into the stupidty of repeated killing, from that point onwards it seems the soul works to uplift or purify all of the ingrained warrior skills thru several lifetimes essentially setting the person on a path of becoming a spiritual warrior...


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Stacie on Sep 11, 2010, 01:38 PM
... there must be people going through the spiritual stage with a physical "edge", and this would be a way of channelling it.  I'm thinking of David Carradine in Kung Fu.

Hi Bluesky,

It may also be useful to consider that there is an entire soul type that correlates with the naval chakra...souls who in essence reflect the nature of this chakra..pluto/mars.  Spiritualization of these souls would naturally embrace paths that allow them to harness and spiritualize the ‘physical edge’ that is intrinsic to their natures/soul structure.  There's a chapter in Autobiography of a Yogi that to me, reflects the specific focus you are talking about...chapter 7 I think it is..The Tiger Swami..

Stacie


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: Stacie on Sep 11, 2010, 01:43 PM
oops..nope its chapter 6


Title: Re: Guru-disciple path
Post by: bluesky on Sep 11, 2010, 03:46 PM
thank you, Stacie! I have access to that book and will look this up.