School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: Dhyana on Nov 28, 2010, 08:06 PM



Title: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Nov 28, 2010, 08:06 PM
What does this aspect correlate to in EA?

Sesquiquadrate 135 Degrees? When I look at certain charts, I see this between certain planets/houses,  and as I correlate the archetypes to the people's lives, I am starting to intuit that it may have something to do with an issue that seems unresolvable to the person themself, but maybe not to others?

Kind of like the inconjunct, but still something is subtly different --hmmm?

I also have noticed health issues related to this aspect, but not always?

Any comments?  ;D ???

Thanks, Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 28, 2010, 09:51 PM
Hi Dhyana, as I just told you privately, I happen to have been writing about this for my little book JUST NOW at the time that you posted this thread.

I feel a deep confirmation from God, "yes, do what your doing". Which is really important for me to hear.

So I'll share here I'm formulating:

I find it most helpful to look at the phase in which the aspect occurs. So the sesquiquadrate can occur twice:

Within orb of 135 degrees- First quarter phase or gibbous phase
and within orb of 225 degrees- Full phase or disseminating phase

All sesquiquadrates will occur either at the end of a phase or the very beginning of a phase.
The 135 degree sesquiqudrate can occur at the very end of the first quarter phase or the very beginning of the disseminating phase.

The archetypal nature of the sesquiquadrate, as I understand it, is micromanaging the purpose in such a way that it can find an expression that is appropriate for the current reality. This is fundamentally different than the inconjunct. The inconjunct correlates to the need to become aware of a special purpose that the soul is meant to fulfill, and the crisis in aligning with the appropriate actions neccesary in order to fulfill that purpose. Thus it has a lot to do with "getting out of one's own way", "letting go and letting god" and "taking it one step at a time". Until the inconjunct is integrated, it can manifest as a angst that there's something to do but "I just don't know how or what to do". The sesquiquadrate, and the semi square too, archetypally says that there are construcitve, wise choices and actions to take in order to further integrate what has been developed up until this point. If this integration does not occur, then sloppiness and lack of social participation will be the result.

Another way to say that: the sesquiquadrate implies curbing what has become excessive in order to make progress. Whereas the inconjunct has more to do with showing up in the first place (gibbous inconjunct) or paying attention to one's environment and showing up in the ways that are needed (full phase inconjunct) and taking it one step at a time.

The sesquiquadrate is in the square family (90/2= 45. All sesquiquadrates are divisions of 45- like the semi square). I like to think of the semisquare and the sesquiquadrate as more refined and detailed manifestations of a square. That's why I use the word "micromanaging".

One expression of a sesquiquadrate that I have definitely come to understand is the experience of feeling "blocked". The reason for the block is to enforce more awareness of what adjustments need to be made in order to move forward.

Another point of contrast- the inconjunct can easily manifest as a resistance to doing this work God has intended for a soul to do on the basis of not feeling ready or being too full of oneself to recognize what's actually needed from society. The of resistance in a sesquiquadrate however is about resisting slowing down and taking the necessary steps/learning what adjustments are neccesary etc in order for evolution to proceed.

A teacher of mine once offered the analogy- if you are doing yoga and are overly flexible- you may hurt yourself if you do not know proper alignment. Thus it is neccesary to "fabricate your own resistance" as to not "over do it" this enables you to naturally build up the appropriate muscular structure to support the flexibility.

I also understand that "excuse making" and over compensation are common expressions of this aspect. This is because it requires will and effort,and most of all, understanding in order to make new adjustments to one's life. Thus until this maturity has been developed, there is often a tendency to make excuses.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 28, 2010, 10:12 PM
Hi Dhyana,

Now here are the specific meanings of the 4 possible manifestations of this aspect.

The first quarter phase sesquiquadrate: being a transitional state to a new phase, has the balsamic quality of "completing" (this is true for all aspects that occur at the end of a phase). What's neccesary is for the soul to learn how to slow down, to curb whatever behaviors are overly excessive/do not allow further participation in society. When we're moving from the new phase to the gibbous phase the archetypal theme is humility via inner withdrawn and reflection on what needs fixing.

Moving from the first quarter to the gibbous phase, there simply isn't very much awareness yet as to how to become progressively socialized in the world in a sustainable and workable way (ie try maintaining a daily yoga practice w/out developing proper alignment- you wont last very long!) Thus in the gibbous phase, there is the the need to continue to take steps to adopt and adjust in the ways that are necessary.

This is potent for me as I have a natal second house Pluto sesquiquadrate to my 9th house Gemini north node- gibbous phase, with an orb of just 6 minutes. I understand a BIG evolutionary lesson for me is to stop making excuses as a way of resisting the evolutionary impulse. Relative to the second house Pluto, Its not particularly easy for me to budge. Thus, based on evolutionary necessity, as I currently understand my own dynamics, my life is set up in such a way that I am being PUSHED to slow down. I still have a lot to understand about this, as I feel my resistance is still IMMENSE and predominately unconscious (as Pluto, a soul tends to be). And the gibbous phase humiliation couldn't feel more true. This is something Rad and other moderators have been helping me with tremendously- and they don't even know it  ;).

The sesquiquadrate that occurs within the full phase is again, completing a phase. This phase has represented the initial exposure to society and participation as an equal. Thus this aspect occuring in this phase requires the soul to slow down and reformulate its awareness of how society works- its rules laws customs etc. And to make neccesary adjustments accordingly. The need is to understand what strucutres need to be developed/embraced.The example JWG gave is Mercury Pluto in a full phase sesquiquadrate. If the soul realizes that becoming a psychologist would be an appropriate way to integrate its own unique purpose, then the soul necessarily needs to understand what is required by society in order to do that (school, credentials, pre-requisities etc). Again micro managing.

The sesquiquadrate in the disseminating phase reflects the beginning of a complete immersion within society- the intent at this point is to continue to make whatever adjustments are necessary in order to fully participate in society in a way that meets the needs/realities of its society. Progressively through the disseminating phase, a soul osmoses into it's own consciousness a deeply penetrating awareness of its social reality, and how to participate within it in a way to fulfill its purpose. And so in the beginning of this phase, with the sesquiquadrate, there needs to an immense degree of awareness channeled into understanding one's society and making the necessary adustments based on that awareness.

God Bless,
Ari Moshe



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 28, 2010, 10:14 PM
Hi Dhyana,
I also wanted to add, in case you didn't know, that JWG discusses the 8 primary phases and the aspects that occur within all those phases in Pluto 2.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Nov 28, 2010, 11:31 PM
Ari,

I am touched deeply that my timely question revealed confirmation for you!
I love when that kind of thing happens. It is very inspiring, indeed!

 --And always comes in such surprising ways. :D

I recognize what you are describing about the general themes of the sesquiquadrate and the inconjunct within my own chart and the others. It makes a lot of sense!

However, I do not know yet, how to formulate which phase these aspect are in by looking at a chart. In fact, the only reason I could find the GENERAL sesquiquardrates and the inconjunctions in the charts I am referring to,is because I happen to find a website that offers these mini reports for free, and in those reports there is a full page print out of the aspects -- on like a symbolic grid type chart (kind of like the one on astrodienst, but much more colorful, clear and bold, And has a few more aspect included that astro.com's) Unfortunately, they only do Placidus charts on that website. NO option for Porphyry. Honestly, I have to save up my money to buy Solar Fire someday -lol :P

If it were not for that graph chart, I would not know about the aspects at all as I am not yet studied in the technical application of ressurrecting a natal chart and uncovering aspects.

Is there a book you could recommend to me that helps me develop the technical part involved in finding these things?  How did you learn to do that?
I see this is going to be very important for me in the very near future to be able to do! ;) (to find out how to look at a chart and identify these aspects and phases)  
Maybe we can talk privately about this too?

I personally  have many of these sesquiquadrates and inconjuncts in my chart (as you must know) -yet I have no idea what phase they are all in? And I am sure it would be very enlightening indeed, to know! I can tell that some of what you shared with me in the past about my chart contained the message of the phases, (as I think back to all you shared with me) but it would help me in my studies to know what excactly they were. Again, maybe we could speak about this privately?

I will save what you have shared here and study it. It is a lot of information. But very USEFUL information!!!

 Sometimes I get overwhelmed with all that I have to learn with this system. I feel like my brain goes into overload -LOL.  But hey, "one step at a time", right!? ;)  SOmething continues to pull me in this direction and to ask these kinds of questions --so we will see.  ;D

I can't thank you enough for the time you spend doing things like you just did here --sharing with me your knowledge. I feel I am so very blessed to have met you, Ari. I have so much appreciation in my heart for you.

With lots of love,
D.

PS. Now that you mention it, I do remember that information is in the PLuto 2 book. I forgot.  Thanks Again, Ari!









 




Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Nov 29, 2010, 04:59 AM
Hi Dhyana,

I started writing this but then noticed Ari has posted a substantial reply. But I thought I’d post it anyway, in case it also helps at all.

As Ari pointed out, any aspect must be related to its part in the bigger picture of the whole Phasal cycle - which is based on the planets orbiting the Sun.

… the planets all orbit the Sun from different distances and at different speeds meaning each planet takes a different amount of time to orbit the Sun. As we know those planets closer to the Sun move faster while those further out move slower and take longer. This is reflected in their differing speeds of movement through the Zodiac - in the chart one of the planets moving faster around the chart than the other.

When looking at any two planets the outer planet will, on average, be moving more slowly around the Zodiac than the other (more) inner planet, which is closer to the Sun. Therefore, in it's journey round the Sun, the faster planet will always be overtaking the more slower moving (outer) planet. This means the alignment of the planets with each other is constantly changing – the two planets are in a cyclic relationship with each other which repeats over time - time and time again. This ongoing relationship between the two planets is shown by their Phasal Cycles.

Whenever the faster inner planet catches up to the slower (more) outer planet - and they are at the same point in the chart - a New Phasal cycle begins.

As the faster moving planet then pulls away from the slower one the separation between them increases until they are exactly opposite each other in the chart (waxing part of cycle). Then the separation starts decreasing until the faster inner planet has caught up to the slower planet again and the cycle ends (waning part of cycle). This whole cycle is the Phasal cycle.

Both the Waxing and Waning halves are each broken down into 4 equally sized phases, making 8 phases in the whole cycle. Each phase is a 45 degree segment of the zodiac (chart), all adding up to 360. The end of each phase is a critical junction point, or gate, into the following phase. Between any two planets the conjunction and opposition mark the beginning and midway parts of the cycle, and all the other aspects will occur once in the waxing half, and once again in the waning half.

Planets represent different energies we have to fulfil various different functions in our lives. We direct our energy into different functions required by the situations and circumstances we are involved in. Just how we integrate inside us the energies used to fulfil these differing functions is shown firstly, in a general way, by the phase between the planets, and within that, more specifically by any aspect occurring between them – in the way that aspect manifests in that particular phase.

When two planets start a new cycle their different energies completely combine into a single new energy – this seeds something new - an intention or purpose, related to the combination of those two energies. As the energies have totally combined its not possible at first to really know what is happening, and the only approach to life that can be taken as far as those two functions (now a combined energy) is concerned, is an instinctual one. It’s a subconscious sense of the new.

The whole waxing half of the cycle is about gaining more consciousness of this sense of new intention and purpose, the nature of which will be shown by the two different functions involved. Finding personal meaning for the new intention is necessary, so as to focus that energy in a direction as a purpose that will actualise and thus fulfil the intention. This involves gestating the energy, growing meaning for it inside first - lots of experimentation with things until the meaning becomes clear. Then developing the purpose as a personally identifiable thing to give it shape and form, at least for oneself. This can be very satisfying. However as the planets move through the waxing phase the personal identification with the new purpose has to be relinquished to allow further growth and interaction with others, regarding it, to happen. Once this has been achieved the new purpose can be established in a social context which is necessary to validate it, and also infuse the process with the further energy required to bring the intention to full expansion.

The waning half is about fully actualising the new intention in a social context, which requires a full merging of one’s purpose within the existing structure, rules, regulations, understanding and taboos etc of the society in which this process is happening. This requires ever more expansion of consciousness as any remaining personal identification and attachment to the process/activity creates blocks and obstacles to its fulfilment, and eventual fruition within a collective context. But once this has happened, the purpose has been fulfilled externally (to oneself), and an even greater satisfaction is experienced.

However, since the purpose has now been fulfilled a loss of meaning starts to take over. Thus the process starts moving back inside where a deeper meaning for the original intention can be searched for – what was that all about, where do I go from here, and what does that really mean for me now?  Also, the integration with society - that was required to fully establish the purpose externally and thus bringing satisfaction on that count … now also loses meaning – the integration was only for that specific purpose. For this reason, and also to get a better perspective, the person has to separate from the prevailing consensus views concerning their purpose, and see their intention from a more individualised point again, so they can then relate it to a larger sense of reality, whatever that may be to the person. Through this final part of the cycle the person can now discover a more ultimate sense of meaning for the whole process, now that it has come to a culmination, completion.

Of course it can take many lifetimes for two planets to complete a full phasal cycle. The particular phasal aspect that any two planets are in, in the chart, shows where the Soul has got to in it's development of those energies/functions, firstly in the larger unfolding of their whole phasal cycle, but also the orb will show how relatively new or old any particular aspect is for the Soul (although I never came across anywhere where Jeffrey gave any details about that in terms of actual measureable time).  

An aspect does actually have a basic generic meaning, but it operates very differently depending on whether it’s in the waxing or waning half of the cycle. So that’s the first thing to determine, and it will show you which phase it’s in. Ari has written about the sesquiquadrate in all it's different phases (and of course reading up on it in Pluto II).

Most websites will have an aspect grid to show you the aspects. To see what phase an aspect is in one way is as follows … [This works but a different, and more simpler way is described below by Ari & Steve which would be good to check out first. This method described by them is the preferred EA method because it is a very simple method]

blessings Upasika


Quote
1. Start with the slower moving planet.

(Remember that, being at the centre of the solar system, the Sun doesn’t orbit around anything (within the solar system) so it has no movement, no speed at all – it is the “slowest” planet of them all in that sense).

             eg Neptune at 0 Scorpio.

2. Moving anticlockwise around the chart (the direction all planets move in), counting the number of degrees to the other, faster moving, planet.
(The exception is with the nodes when they are the faster moving point. As they move around the chart clockwise, you move clockwise round the chart when counting the degrees they are from the slower moving planet).

             eg Venus at 14 Gemini



=> There are 224 degrees from 0 Scorpio to 14 Gemini.     Then look in the list below to see it’s phasal aspect.

Our example: 224 is in very close orb to a Full Sesquiquadrate (224.99)



Degree   Phase Aspect
0           New Conjunction
30         New SemiSextile
36         New Decile
40         New Novile
44.99     New SemiSquare
45         Crescent SemiSquare
51.43     Crescent Septile
60         Crescent Sextile
72         Crescent Quintile
80         Crescent BiNovile
89.99     Crescent Square
90          First Quarter Square
102.86     First Quarter BiSeptile
108         First Quarter SesquiQuintile
120         First Quarter Trine
134.99     First Quarter Sesquiquadrate
135         Gibbous Sesquiquadrate
144         Gibbous BiQuintile
150         Gibbous Quincunx
154.29     Gibbous TriSeptile
179.99     Gibbous Opposition
180         Full Opposition
205.71     Full TriSeptile
210         Full Qunincunx
216         Full BiQuintile
224.99     Full SesquiQuadrate
225         Disseminating Sesquiquadrate
240         Disseminating Trine
252         Disseminating SesquiQuintile
257.14     Disseminating BiSeptile
269.99     Disseminating Square
270         Third Quarter Square
280         Third Quarter BiNovile
288         Third Quarter Quintile
300         Third Quarter Sextile
308.57     Third Quarter Septile
314.99     Third Quarter SemiSquare
315         Balsamic SemiSquare
320         Balsamic Novile
324         Balsamic Decile
330         Balsamic SemiSextile
359.99     Balsamic Conjunction

Relative speed of the planets / points...
ASCENDANT
MIDHEAVEN
Moon
Mercury
Venus
Mars
Vesta
Juno
Ceres
Pallas
Lucifer
Jupiter
Moon's South & North Nodes
Saturn
Chiron
Uranus
Neptune
Pluto
Sun


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Nov 29, 2010, 06:09 AM
Hi Dhyana

Diagrams of the phases and aspects are posted for download here (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,209.0.html).

To add to what's already been said, here are some of Jeffrey's words on the Gibbous phase sesquiquad:

Quote
This is a transitional phase of itself. It is the transition between the subjective orientation and objective orientation - from individual development to social development, integrating the individual development into the social scheme of things. The gibbous phase is the transitional archetype between the two. The key word for the gibbous phase is adjustment or self-analysis. What happens here is that now that we have moved through the first quarter trine, the individual is full of himself, very Leonian, and it wants to display and project itself to all. It is the same archetype of the actor who has received an Academy Award and wants all to know. And rightfully so in its own way. After all, it has been a hard-won journey all the way from that new phase conjunction: We get a few bennies in our life now and then, even in the midst of hardship. But, let's face it, most people in these kinds of societies feel threatened by another's accomplishments, by another's sense of well-beingness, by another being full of themselves and having a clear vision of what they are trying to accomplish. This kind of society, because of its religious ethics put such things down. There is nobody around here with pats on the back and congratulations for a journey hard-won. It's more the voice of , "Who in the hell do you think you are?"

We meet this environmental feedback at the first quarter sesquisquare. The first quarter reaction is to throw the question back, and to fight back. This is where it is important to understand sociological context. At some point, whether we like it or not we have to acknowledge that we belong to that context. Envy and jealousy abound. Another culture might say, "More power to you."

The first quarter sesquisquare is preparing the individual to integrate on society's terms, not on the individual's terms and therein lies the rub because at this juncture the person is full of themselves and does not want to bend to any one’s will.

And so there is tremendous tension, sesquisquare, conflict. How do I accomplish the goals relative to vision now that I am receiving this environmental feedback that feels like rejection? That is why we have these key words in the gibbous phase of analysis and adjustment, because when you meet that environmental feedback in this sociological context, it will necessarily promote an existential and experiential crisis which will lead to analysis. Why has this happened? It is the search for knowledge. It is that search that progressively promotes the awareness of how that sociological context is put together. The problem in this kind of aspect is that once that awareness becomes known, the individual begins to feel very small and begins to feel overwhelmed by the sociological context. Then they begin to analyze all their own deficiencies, inferiorities, lacks and shortcomings and all the things they would necessarily have to accomplish, develop or adjust to make that vision reality. And all too often there is a shrinking from the task relative to now another yin phase, the person is thrown in on them self and they are literally experiencing the desert of their own personality and Soul. Somehow where there was richness and fertility, there is now a barren inheritance and thus the person feels lonely as if they are living in an existential void. This promotes crisis.

From a purely archetypical point of view, it is meant to induce humility meaning the person is full of them self and thus perhaps overly identified with their ego in the sense of being the center of the universe, too narcissistic. So this induces necessary ego-centric humility and thus the soul programs via this aspect the negative feedback as well as negative inner feedback as one analyzes oneself.
...
The orb that I use is 3 degrees, 1-2 degrees on either side for the sesquiquad.
...
So the humility lesson and the need to acknowledge how the system works leads, in most cases, to seeking out the necessary training and activities and schools of higher learning that will give you the necessary certification to actualize the vision. This is another way of acknowledging humility.

The polarity phase here is balsamic. The gibbous phase is now promoting the awareness of the nitty gritty details of one's mundane daily life on a moment to moment basis. I am sensing the balsamic polarity and I want to escape. I am tired of these routines. I am bored. The balsamic is the vision of the absolute, the timeless, divinity, the ultimate, the ideal. So now that I am living my life in this very mundane way, submitting myself to this sociological context, this polarity point progressively tempts me to escape, to compare my reality with an ideal reality that I cannot find, but only can sense. What if I have Mars/Venus in a gibbous phase? Are not my relationships going to seem less than adequate? As measured against the undefined ideal. I will get bored with the normal tedious work I have to do in relationships to sustain it. This could make me irritable and critical and help me to take all the stupid little details and irritants and cause me blow them all out of proportion.

This could make me feel, Venus, that this is less than something I want, Mars. The school of life is now experienced through this relationship. Doubts, partner criticizes, I project. There could even be a refusal to accept any kind of relationship because of the sense of the ideal, timeless relationship.

This gibbous phase is to realize that the path to perfection is not through analyzing and criticizing, but through doing. Imperfection is a natural law of the earth. It is not here. Ultimately that gibbous phase Mars/Venus is teaching the person to seek a divine cosmic relationship within.

With respect to what has come before, the person has all kinds of subconscious memories of freedom and independence and now they are being required to be in a relationship which demands work, so resentment and anger exist.

and this on the disseminating phase sesquiquad

Quote
The disseminating phase correlates to the totality of the sociological cultural system in which you find yourself. In our time, everything that America is correlates to the disseminating phase. All possible lifestyles, beliefs, values and all that which if impossible - disseminating phase. It is the highest degree of socialization, the absolute need to disseminate your purpose which was initiated all the way back at the new phase conjunction. Not just amongst friends and close relationship, but in a full blown integration within the world - job or career.

When you pass the inconjunct, you become aware of what you are and what you can do and you go out and do it. The problem is that the sesquisquare is the last initiation, the last social ritual, social rite toward that goal. You have realized the you are meant to be a stockbroker and you have a powerful vision of wanting to be a stockbroker. In this aspect, you have a powerful vision of how to do it in a unique way, in a way that will actually change the social system that you are about to participate in, now being the world of a stockbroker. At the full phase sesquisquare, until you learn the ways and the means of the stock brokering world, all their little happy rituals, all the things that they do, the consensus of the stockbroker world. Until you learn that, you will be rejected in the sesquisquare full phase. You will be perceived as willful and as threatening to the established status quo. The security is now found through consensus and disseminating phase. The challenge is to acknowledge how that system is working, how the consensus is working, not in the way of becoming it, but in a way of making it work for you. That is the enlightened approach. The problem in most cases is the becoming - that is the easier path. It creates and leads to less social and individual stress, does it not? That's the voice that says, "If you can't beat them, join them." The challenge is to join them without them knowing that you haven't really joined. After all, if things are left in the consensus state forever, it is just going to crystallize and die off. We have to have new blood. That is what this aspect is for, new input, new visions. The key word for disseminating phase is just that - to disseminate, to share, to give.

To me the buzzword for sesquiquad is "adjustment".  It is a Virgo-like aspect that involves crisis, analysis, and often paralysis resulting from over analysis, used to justify not acting.  It is a gateway aspect because it represents the boundary between two phases, thus an inherent tendency to resist.  We are crossing from a masculine phase to a feminine phase.  It is a powerful aspect, because of that.  The Gibbous sesquiquad represents the 15 degree of Leo point, the Disseminating the 15 degree of Scorpio - both of these are biquadrant points, mid-points of fixed signs.  As such they are quite powerful.
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 29, 2010, 03:44 PM
Hopefully all this info is helpful and not resulting in an overload!

As I understand it, the square family (squares and semi/sesqisquares) are crucial in phasal development for the reasons Steve mentioned, they are transitions from one phase to another. So they are always going to imply some sort of resistance and insecurity based on fear of the unknown (new phase). Nature herself is set up in this way. We have the 4 natural seasons (solstice and equinox points all 90 degrees from one another) and the 4 midpoints in-between them. Earth based spiritualities have always recognized the sacredness of these 8 points in the course of a solar year.

Hi Upasika,
Quote
(The exception is with the nodes when they are the faster moving point. As they move around the chart clockwise, you move clockwise round the chart when counting the degrees they are from the slower moving planet).

If I'm not mistaken, I think that is incorrect. With the nodes, no matter how quick or slow they move in relation to the planet in question, it is always appropriate to move clockwise from the planet in question. For example if the nn is 0 Libra/ sn at 0 Aries and the Moon is at 0 Cancer, what was the node that the Moon last formed a conjunction with? The answer is the Aries sn.

Lets replace that Moon at 0 Cancer with Pluto. What is the last node that Pluto formed a conjunction with? The answer is still the sn at 0 Aries.

The reason why this works whether the planet in question is slower or faster than the nodes, is because the nodes are always moving backwards. Thus the node to the left has most recently been CLOSER to the planet in question- in all cases.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Nov 29, 2010, 08:27 PM
All,

I have not had any time today to read all the additional comments here--
Yet, I wanted to quickly thank you all so very much for the support!

I have just printed all of this out on paper and will be studying it over the next few.
Keeping it all in a folder I have for EA.

Thank you all so very much for taking the time to help me. ;D

Love,
Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 29, 2010, 10:57 PM
Hi Upasika and Gonzalo,

I read through what you both wrote carefully, and I still understand the following principal to be true:

In the case of a planet squaring the nodes, it does not matter whether the planet is slower or faster than the nodes. In all cases, by moving in a clockwise direction from where the planet is positioned, the node that is first reached is both the node that the planet must be integrated through, as well as the node it is forming a first quarter square too.

To prove this, if we look at an ephemeris for lets say the example with Pluto at 0 Cancer and the sn at 0 Aries, we will find that the last node that Pluto formed a conjunction with is the sn. We would find the same thing with the Moon. Thus they are both first quarter square to the sn, and they are both integrated through the sn.

Also, it is my understanding that the node through which a planet is integrated is always the first quarter square node (as that is where the cycle began). Is that accurate?

In Gonzalo's example:
Quote
SN at 10° Libra; Mercury at 5° Libra: their difference is 355°, calculated in counter-clockwise direction starting from the SN position, because  Mercury is faster than the Node; thus, they are Balsamic conjunct;

The same conclusion can be found if we start with Mercury and move clockwise through the chart. It would take 355 degrees to reach the sn. The conjunction would be determined as balsamic.

Now lets say Mercury is replaced by Neptune at 5 Libra. The same principal applies- we can start at Neptune and move clockwise through the chart. This too is an example of a balsamic conjunction.

To prove that, simple track the past and project the future. Clearly in the past the sn was higher than 10 degrees and Neptune was lower than 5 degrees. And in the future they will soon be combust. This is true for every planet no matter whether it is slower or faster than the nodes. The phase seems to be the same.

I'm open of course to still missing something, I appreciate this so much.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Nov 30, 2010, 12:57 AM
Hi All

Just to clarify something.  Figuring phases to the nodes has always been one of the most confusing parts of EA to students.  "Back when", students questioned Jeffrey on the board a number of times to clarify how this is done.  I think he taught several methods over the years until he finally simplified it so it is easy to grasp.

It has nothing to do with how fast or slow a planet is relative to the nodal movement.  Its the same method for all planets regardless of speed.

Going clockwise, you move from the planet to the node you want to determine the planet-to-node phase. Count the # of degrees.  That's it.  Doesn't matter if its Sun or Moon or Pluto or Mercury, same method.  I've put up a diagram Kim Marie created to illustrate this method (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/images/phases_to_the_nodes.pdf).

Upasika and Gonzalo, you can leave your posts up if you want to, but it would be good if you mark in red or something the sections that stand corrected, so as not to confuse people who read this stuff later on.  Its confusing enough without finding conflicting methods on the message board.
thank you!
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Nov 30, 2010, 01:28 AM
Gonzalo

The material I quoted on Sesquiquadrate is from one of Jeffrey's workshop printed transcripts that is sold on the School website, Aspects, Phases, and Key Planetary Pairs. It's 41 typewritten pages long and in my opinion is by far the most comprehensive written description of the subject of phases and aspects.  I find it one of the most useful lectures because it describes the relationship between the aspects and the phases and the overall 360 degree wheel in a lot of detail. 

Also the sections on the key planetary pairs and the different formations like T-square, Yod, Grand Trine and Mystic rectangle.  Not sure this was covered in this much detail elsewhere. 

There is also a workshop DVD, Cycles of Becoming that has about one hour on the coming of the Aquarian Age and 3 and a half hours on the cycle of phases and aspects. 

These have a lot more detail than is covered in the Pluto one and two books.  I found/find it especially valuable stuff for those who deeply want to learn the principles of EA. 


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Nov 30, 2010, 02:57 AM

Thanks so much to everyone!  I think I am kind of getting a glimmer of an idea about how to go about figuring these aspects out --but it is going to be a  s-l-o-w process with lots of practice for my brain --lol.

Thanks Upasika, Ari, Gonzalo, Steve -- well, everyone!  

Everyone has offerred such great stuff --and wonderful support here. What a great community!  :D



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Nov 30, 2010, 03:29 AM
Upasika and Gonzalo, you can leave your posts up if you want to, but it would be good if you mark in red or something the sections that stand corrected, so as not to confuse people who read this stuff later on.  Its confusing enough without finding conflicting methods on the message board.
thank you!

Hi Steve, Ari, Gonzalo, Dhyana,

Good we have got to this point. It is as I had suspected, Ari and Gonzalo & I are describing two different ways to determine the phasal aspect of a Moon node and another planet, and both get the same result.

However, if the preference is to promote just one specific way of doing this, the "always moving clockwise from any planet to the Node in question" one, then that's fine by me .. it would simplify things for the MB in general and I'll mark the relevant parts of my previous posts.

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Nov 30, 2010, 04:54 AM
Upasika --my confused-ness is nothing new- :o ???   and was not due to any thing you wrote --in fact you cleared up a whole lot..

it is the WHOLE phasal thing  that is confusing me!  ---LOL ;D


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Nov 30, 2010, 06:14 AM
Steve,

Thank you also for your reference to "Aspects, Phases, and Key Planetary Pairs". I'll look forward to purchasing this material as soon as I can. Can this material be sent by email, or is it only in printed version?

Gonzalo


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: adina on Nov 30, 2010, 08:45 AM
Hi to everyone,

This topic was a very sticky wicket for many people for a long time (You wouldn't beLIEVE what we went through to get to where we are now! LOL), but it WAS resolved long ago on the original EA Message Board BY JWG. I’ve been working for years (on and off) on editing the original message board and sorting the entries into chapters, so I also checked this out with Jeffrey before he retired, and below is the Q&A post of that discussion so long ago now, or the “planet clockwise to the nodes” method of figuring the phase.

Gonzalo, I feel this is not a matter of who’s ‘right and/or wrong’ but what is easy and workable, and the least confusing for the majority of people—especially when they’re new to EA-- I think the most important thing right now is to keep things as simple as possible when people are learning, and if they read 2, 3 or more ways to figure something in the chart, it might create more confusion than intended.
Keeping in mind that it’s through observation and correlation that any astrological archetype takes shape, the relationship of planets to the nodes discussed below has proven itself over and over again. Below is the way that Jeffrey taught it toward the end of his career in ORDER to make it clear and simple for the students. Any way that achieves the same results could certainly be considered, but through experience many of us found this a very simple method to understand and use.

If you, or anyone else, find something different works for you in your experience, then go for it, but I’m posting this method below as the way it was explained in Pluto school, and as a way to keep it simple for the students of the school as they begin their journey with EA--kind of like a foundation from which they can start and branch out later. Once any of us have that foundation, we can add and subtract those things that do or don’t support that foundation. This is just a simple means of beginning that journey, one that works for many people, and one that has all the students on the same page to begin with.
I hope the Q&A below helps answer some of the questions and concerns brought up in the discussion so far.

God Bless,
Adina


Phasal Relationship to Nodes

(Q1): I want to make sure my understanding is accurate when considering phasal relationships to the Nodes of the Moon. Example: Uranus in the 2nd House squaring the South Node in Aquarius in the 11th house and the North Node in Leo in the fifth house. When I am looking at the Uranus phasal relationship to the Nodes, due to the nodal retrograde motion, the square of Uranus to the South Node is 1st Quarter and the square to the North Node is Last Quarter. Is this correct?

(A): Yes.
 
(Q2): To clarify the above question using another example, would the North Node at 10 Cancer and the Moon at 5 Cancer be in a balsamic conjunction?

(A): Yes.
 
(Q3): In a birth chart with the North Node at 1 Leo and Pluto at 28 Leo, considering that the natural movement of the nodes is clockwise and that the North Node recently conjunct Pluto, is this actually a new phase?
 
(A): Yes.

(Q4): If Pluto is in the 1st house at 3 degrees Virgo and the North Node is in the second house at 20 degrees Virgo, is this a new phase conjunction or a balsamic? In other words, is the North Node considered fixed and slower moving or is Pluto the slower moving planet?
 
(A): This is a balsamic conjunction. The motion of retrograde or direct does not matter.

(Q4): I'm confused about the phase being balsamic. I thought from a previous post that Pluto moves slower than the nodes, so Pluto would be the starting point, and I would count counterclockwise to the north node to determine the phase. What am I not understanding?  

(A): Yes, Pluto is slower, but you are forgetting the mean motion of the nodes is retrograde. The north node in your example is approaching Pluto, so it is a balsamic conjunction.

(Q4): At the risk of sounding dull, the only way I can understand this being a balsamic conjunction is if I consider the north node to be a fixed point and count counterclockwise to Pluto. I don't think this is what you're saying. I thought I understood what you meant about the mean motion of the nodes being retrograde, but that's how I came up with it being a new phase conjunction in the first place. Pluto was the stationary planet and I went counterclockwise to the north node. I know this information is on the tapes, but the question was asked at the end of my tape, and I never heard the answer.

(A): Again, the key is to understand that the mean motion of the nodes is retrograde, thus, the north node is approaching Pluto, not moving away from it. If it were moving away from it, you would be correct in thinking it is a new phase. But it is not; it is approaching.

The methodology (model) for determining the phase between a planet and one of the nodes is as follows: pretend you are standing on whichever node and looking into the center of the chart. If the planet is to the right of the node, and depending on its distance from the node, then it is new phase through gibbous and separating (moving away) from the planet (0 to 180 degrees). If the planet is to the left of the node, then it is full phase thru balsamic and applying to (approaching) the planet (180 to 360 degrees).  


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 30, 2010, 11:20 AM
Hi Gonzalo,

Quote
Well, I don’t feel what I posted is incorrect. I may be wrong, but it doesn´t make much sense to ignore the relative speed of the planet/Node, or the direction of the movement. From reading prior posts about this topic some time ago I noted that there were two different ways in use to calculate the phase/aspect between a planet and a Node: one that considers their relative speed, and the retrograde motion of the node, and, on the other side, the way you now indicate. Isn’t it more reasonable to consider the retrograde motion, and the relative speed, which is what is really occurring?

If I am not wrong, in one of the Practice Charts we worked with a balsamic conjunction of Neptune and South Node. A chart was posted by Ari with this paradigm. It is in this page:

http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,21.570.html

If we’d used the method for calculation you now indicate, this would be a New Phase conjunction, not a Balsamic conjunction. 

No it wouldn't. Whether you start with Neptune and move clockwise, or the sn and move counter clockwise- the result in the same: balsamic.

No matter which method is used, the key is to move in the reverse direction of the normal direction of the planet or node you are starting with. In so doing, we track the past by determining the exact elongation of degrees that has spanned between the planet and node.

For the nodes that reverse direction will always be counter clockwise. For all planets and asteroids, Sun and Moon that will always be clockwise.

Relative speed of two bodies only matters when the two bodies share the same normal direction of motion.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Nov 30, 2010, 12:08 PM
Hi Gonzalo,

Quote
Of course, Ari. But if you start from Neptune and move counter clockwise, or if you start from SN and move clockwise, the result in both cases is New Phase.


But why would you ever move Neptune counter clockwise and the sn clockwise when determining the phase? That would only work if the mean motion for nodes were counter clockwise and the mean motion for planets was clockwise ... I'm sorry if I'm missing something about what your saying here!
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Nov 30, 2010, 01:00 PM
Hi Ari, Steve, Upasika and Adina

I've read all this again, and I found you are right: because the motion of the nodes is retrograde, and the motion of the planets is direct, the relative speed of the planet as compared with the node is irrelevant. If the planet is slower than the node, the distance between that planet and the node has been traveled by the node in clockwise direction; if the planet is faster than the node, the distance between that planet and the  node has been traveled, by the planet, in counter-clockwise direction. In both cases, that distance is the same. So, the simplified methods for calculations proposed would apply in all cases.

I will rather delete my prior posts on this to avoid further confusion.

Thanks for clarification

God Bless,

Gonzalo


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: adina on Nov 30, 2010, 01:50 PM
Well, God Bless you, too, Gonzalo. As I posted above, you wouldn't believe what we all went through before we got to the point of the above Q&A with Jeffrey!  LOL  We all have to process information in our own ways, and like I said, it's not a matter of right or wrong.... just what might be the simplest way for people to understand, especially when they're starting out.



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Nov 30, 2010, 09:40 PM
Hi all

To add two cents more...

The planet-clockwise-to-the-node method is not the only method that works when calculating the phase between a planet and a node.  It is by far the simplest method I've come across, and that is why the EA school teaches it, as its enough information for most EA students.

I believe Upasika's method was coming up with identical results to this method.  Any method that comes up with identical results is a valid way to do the calculations.  Upasika's approach takes into account the behind the scenes technical stuff regarding WHY we calculate the phase as we do.  Doing it that way reveals the WHY behind the principle.  However over the years that approach has repeatedly proven too complicated for most students.  Therefore we teach the simpler way of getting to the same result. 

A method that comes up with different results than this method is not an accurate method, because the results will always come out the same when the method used is a valid one, no matter what valid method is used.

The point here has never been about a right or wrong way.  The concern has simply been to make things as simple and accurate as possible, for the benefit of students of EA, present and future.  That's the whole point of this board.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this.
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Nov 30, 2010, 09:41 PM
Hi Gonzalo

Quote
Thank you also for your reference to "Aspects, Phases, and Key Planetary Pairs". I'll look forward to purchasing this material as soon as I can. Can this material be sent by email, or is it only in printed version?

As far as I know that is only available in the printed form.
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Nov 30, 2010, 11:14 PM
Hi Steve,

I've had no problems with this throughout the discussion ... it does make sense to teach one method, and the moving clockwise from planet to the Node in every situation is such a simple method, its an obvious choice.

I left the other method tucked in there as it's just based on the actual motions of the two planets concerned from the conjunction point onwards, so is very natural in that sense, and I thought it may be of interest to some. I've pointed readers to the preferred method later in the post, but if we'd be better off without it in at all, I'll happily just take it out ... if that would be best just let me know.

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Nov 30, 2010, 11:18 PM
Hi Upasika

Hi Steve,

I've had no problems with this throughout the discussion ... it does make sense to teach one method, and the moving clockwise from planet to the Node in every situation is such a simple method, its an obvious choice.

I left the other method tucked in there as it's just based on the actual motions of the two planets concerned from the conjunction point onwards, so is very natural in that sense, and I thought it may be of interest to some. I've pointed readers to the preferred method later in the post, but if we'd be better off without it in at all, I'll happily just take it out ... if that would be best just let me know.

blessings Upasika

No, no, its fine that your post is there.  I was humorously going to add to my last post that any students wanting to know more technical details about why this rule works should look you up!  What you have there is true.  And some people will want to know that information, so having it there is actually helpful.
thank you
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Dec 01, 2010, 06:53 AM
Hi Steve and Adina,

I really don't care about being wrong, or right. Not anymore, unless I perceive an implied personal judgement about me (which is not the case), or when I feel I am being manipulated, or pricked (which is not the case with you, Adina, but which seems to be the case with you, Steve!). It would have been easier for me if you'd told me in the beginning that the simplified method was intended to provide the same results that consideration of all the existing factors. Added to the fact I got confused when applying the premises! which at some points gave me different results. What I thought then was that comparative methods gave different results because of  different implied premises of what was involved in the planet-node phases, ie. that there was a difference or a multiplication of the premises. As you didn't tell me that a long (and correctly applied) method and the simplified method would give the same results, I felt I was being made to accept the simplified method without understanding why it worked. This just ignited my rebelliousness and my need to verify by myself. But indeed I felt alleviated when in the end found out where I was "wrong" -in the application of the premises.

Thank you so much for all,

God Bless,

Gonzalo


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 01, 2010, 11:24 PM
Ari, your material on the sesquiquadrate dynamic/archetype and its phase distinctions is excellent stuff. The sesquiquad is one archetype I feel is quite underrepresented in astrological writings.  I've by no means scoured the earth for everything that has been written on the aspect, but can simply say that I'm typically unmoved by what I've come across, one obvious exception being JWG's material.  But I will say that what you've articulated did have a resonating affect for me, for what's it's worth to know that.  So good for you! And good for us!  

Gonzalo.. as random and out-of-the-blue as this statement may be, just wanted to say that I find a real depth of love in my soul for who you are.  Your innate humility and courageous self-candor is quite beautiful to me.  There are many occasions where the simple act of reading something you've posted, of itself, induces a healing affect within.  I tell you that for no real reason, other than I just really felt like saying it! Ha! :-)

Great discussion in this thread, people.  And Upasika, I would like to borrow some left-brain if that's alright with you.

God Bless,
Stacie


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 01, 2010, 11:32 PM
Hi Stacie,

Sure, just let me know what you have in mind..?  .. (and also Gonzalo, like Stacie I also appreciate what you have to say when you post).

Upasika


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 02, 2010, 12:17 AM
hi Gonzalo

After reading what you said, I went back and read again what I had written to you.  I didn't find a word in it that was pricking of you in any way.  In fact the only thing I said that was addressed to you was my request that you mark what you had written as being updated in posts that followed yours, SO AS NOT TO CONFUSE FUTURE READERS OF THE MATERIAL.  I clearly made that point in my request. 

After those posts you had a series of back and forth posts with some other people, disagreeing over your methodology.  I did not say a word about any of that.  They were trying to help you see the fallacy in the way you were looking at it, and you were not hearing it at all.

Finally someone posted some material from which you were able to find the fallacy in your thinking. To your credit, you owned that there had been pieces missing in the way you looked at it. 

I had nothing to do with any of that.  So I don't understand why you feel pricked by me when there were several people who were telling you that your approach was wrong.  I said nothing of the sort. All I did was post some words from Jeffrey, and explain why we teach the methodology that we do.  And I asked you to mark what you had written as "revised in a later post", for the sole reason of avoiding confusing future readers of this topic.  There was nothing personal intended about you in anything I wrote.

No one here is or will be trying to make you wrong.  We all at times misunderstand things and express things we think are right that turn out not to be.  And I put myself at the top of that list.  There is really no reason to get into a defensive place.  No one here is going to tell you that you are wrong, without reason.  At the same time, if someone has a different or deeper perspective to communicate, if one of us is so invested in how we are seeing things that we tune them out, don't take in what they are saying, or feel threatened or attacked, we are not really going to learn something new now, are we.

Its momentary moments of loss of respect, when we are digging in our heels and not listening - that is the problem, always.  Not just on the message board but in life itself.  (At times I do that myself, thus I know.)  I am bringing this up because there is something we all can learn from what happened here, and that something is about a lot more than just sesquiquads or how to calculate phases to the nodes. 

In a way I'm glad you expressed that you felt pricked by me, even though I feel I did nothing to prick you.  Because at least you honestly expressed what you felt (which took courage), and then it can be addressed.  This again to me is EA or life in action.  Its not just about learning the intellectual information about this and that astrological tidbit, but also applying it to real life situations and processes, interpersonal relationships.  As my Aquarius joke goes, Aquarians love humanity, its people they can't stand.  Because its in those one to one's with people it can get messy and personal.  Our wounds start bleeding through.  EA is about exposing the wounds so we can work to heal them, one person helping the next.  That is why this kind of talk is quite appropriate on the message board even though its not directly about EA.  It is directly about EA APPLIED to human life.

take care, my friend
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Dec 02, 2010, 12:43 PM
Dear Steve,

I really appreciate and am thankful for your reply at a personal level. I did not have any intention to offend you when using the word “prick”. I felt I was being “pricked”; though, I should add, that didn’t feel offensive to me. Perhaps “pricking” is not the right word. What I meant is like pushing some buttons as to produce a reaction, or some irritation. I just felt I was being pricked for some reason, but I didn’t know “why”. I didn’t make any judgment about that, and consciously refused making hypotheses. Perhaps we are just getting stuck in words. When reading your last post I tended to react further because you now chose word “fallacy”, which has many connotations beyond error. But I will trust that you are not trying to “push my buttons”, because that’s what I perceive in the totality of your post.

I consciously decided to avoid my most common reaction, which is to withdraw. And you’re right in that it was an act of courage. I think I will have to keep doing it this way, even though it is quite difficult for me doing so, and I just hope it will get swifter in some near future. Not sure if this will happen. Currently these dynamics are intensified within me, as transiting Pluto t-squares my Sun/Uranus conjunction in the 3rd House Libra-opposed Chiron 9th House Aries. I hope at some point it will become more clear that I don’t intend to offend anyone here. Thanks for your patience.


Hi Stacie,

Thank you for your post and those kind words. I am happy that you perceive that in me. Very few people can. Personally, I have the same type of feeling and sympathy for you.


Upasika: thank you!

God Bless,

Gonzalo



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 02, 2010, 02:06 PM
Gonzalo

Quote
... I will trust that you are not trying to “push my buttons”, because that’s what I perceive in the totality of your post.

in no way was i trying to push your buttons

Quote
I consciously decided to avoid my most common reaction, which is to withdraw. And you’re right in that it was an act of courage. I think I will have to keep doing it this way, even though it is quite difficult for me doing so, and I just hope it will get swifter in some near future. Not sure if this will happen. ...  I hope at some point it will become more clear that I don’t intend to offend anyone here. Thanks for your patience.

I don't see you have ever tried to offend anyone here.  That is not even in question.  What I am talking about are all too pretty much universal human traits.  We tend to dig in our heels at times past the point that is reasonable.  We tend towards projecting stuff onto others at times instead of accepting responsibility for what is actually our own stuff.

This is what I experienced going on here - we all have stuff.  Humans in general are in denial of stuff.  Here the "stuff" came out in a public forum.  Fortunately the members of this forum have a higher than usual capacity to deal with stuff and not just react to it or form judgments on others.  That is what I meant by living breathing EA.  We show up where we are at.  We think we are in a fine place.  Things happen, we go through a few changes, we learn something we didn't know before, and we see that where we were before was more limited than we had realized. After all, there is always more. 

I go through this same process here that anyone else does.  It takes courage to put one's honest feelings on a public board.  People can judge you, disagree with your conclusions, think you are an idiot.  We find what we wrote is not always as true as we thought it was while writing it.  Out of that process can come growth. 

I would never question your motives or intent.  They are clearly pure.  At the same time, we also all have places that operate at less than 100% total alignment with our purity of intent.  Those get revealed in circumstances like this.  When we own it, which you did, we grow.  I am not saying I have this all together and you didn't.  These words apply just as much to me as to you. Because my motives and intent are also pure, I get inner feedback from life when I get out of alignment.  The inner feedback is intended to help free up stuck places in me (if I choose to listen to it).  Sometimes that comes from external feedback, but sometimes external feedback is projection and has nothing to do with my actions. 

It takes learning discernment, and holding really deep personal honesty, to know what is valid and what is projection.  All one's tendencies towards self-doubt and feeling persecuted can be amplified with external feedback.  Its a great opportunity to deal with that and release a lot of it.  (That applies just as much to me as to you)
take care
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Dec 02, 2010, 06:01 PM
Steve

Quote
“We think we are in a fine place.  Things happen, we go through a few changes, we learn something we didn't know before, and we see that where we were before was more limited than we had realized. After all, there is always more.”

Good for you, Steve. This doesn’t apply to me, though. Having the South Node, Mars/Mercury/Moon/Pluto, all in Virgo, you don’t feel like that. Added that Virgo is intercepted and ruled by the Sun, which is opposed by Chiron, and ruled by Venus in Scorpio 4th House, opposed by Saturn, and conjunct Neptune (the North Node ruler), which squares the Nodal Axis. Added that Pluto aspects all the planets in my birthchart. You don’t feel you are in a fine place at all. I haven’t had such a feeling since near sixteen years, a feeling which lasted for some two years until my progressed Venus went retrograde and the Neptune/Uranus conjunction in Capricorn crossed my DC. Rather, I am constantly struggling to reach a better place, and may times I’ve struggled in the wrong direction! And of course I am quite aware that there is something more, thanks God! This is no complaint, but perhaps you would reassess what your opinion is about my motivations.

God Bless,

Gonzalo


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 02, 2010, 07:01 PM
Gonzalo

Quote
perhaps you would reassess what your opinion is about my motivations.

I have nothing but the highest opinion about your motivations.  I don't seem to be able to get that through to you. 

When you feel messed up for 16 years, THAT has become your reality.  My point is, for the sake of survival, we struggle to defend and protect our known reality, even when we feel it is messed up.  I say, past a point feeling less than can be just as much a spiritual impediment as feeling better than.

I am not judging you in any way at all. You appear to be insisting that I have negative or judgmental opinions about you that simply do not exist in me.  They are not coming from me. There's nothing further I can add to this.
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 02, 2010, 07:20 PM
Aw Stacie, thank you so much for communicating that to me, it means a lot for me to hear that from you.
Note all of that came out as Venus was transiting on my natal Pluto, which itself is in a tight gibbous sesquiquad to my nn!

I want to second what Stacie and Steve have said as far as appreciation and gratitude for you Gonzalo.

I dont know how apparent it is to those who aren't paying super close attention, I do have a karma of laziness. Ruler of nn, Mercury is crescent phase sextile to Pluto which is itself in the second house. And that Mercury is combust Neptune. So it's easy for me to only put in half the effort and not experience any particularly devastating catalysts that push me to try harder. I am learning to cultivate a deeper integrity and maturity in the effort I put forth. This is something you, as well as a few others in this community continually inspire in me.

That being said, time to stop prancing around (nodal sesquiquadrate to Pluto involving the gemini/sag archetypes) and complete that planetary nodes practice!

With Love,
Ari Moshe



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Dec 02, 2010, 08:40 PM
Hi Steve

OK, I am about to finally get your point! In spite that there is something misterious that perhaps will still evade me. I am done with this "topic" too, and feeling quite good because I did say what I was feeling, without creating any massive destruction for any other or for myself. I truly appreciate that you have followed/leaded me through this discussion, despite your desire not to trigger anything at all. I really like being "wrong", when being wrong creates something like this. I am truly thankful.

Hi Ari

That's truly wonderful to hear. You wouldn't believe how lazy I feel I am! Curiously, I feel something similar about you, and your seriousness in your EA work, in meditation, and your persistence and your progress, inspires me much respect for you, and further desires for being more consistent. Thanks a lot for sharing what you shared.

Thanks again to all who shared their views in this thread

God Bless you,

Gonzalo


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Wendy on Dec 02, 2010, 09:54 PM
Hi Dhyana,

I too am still learning how to integrate the "uncommon" aspects into interpreting a chart.  They do however show up on the Astro.com charts, its just a matter of identifying them and then applying the math to figure out the phasal relationships.  I find it overwhelming though, so many pieces to consider.  With that in mind, I decided I needed a checklist when interpreting a chart.  It's no wonder why astrologers charge so much for a reading, so much goes into truly understanding all the dynamics in the chart.

I didn't complete it though as I don't fully understand how Numbers works and can't seem to get the table to come out right.  I originally hoped to get input from others on the board before finishing it (or have someone else do it since my learning curve with Numbers is apparent).  Your question provides the perfect environment for this now.  

How do I upload a PDF document on the board?  I tried to upload it to Photobucket but it didn't work, I guess because its not a photo.

Thanks,
Wendy


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Wendy on Dec 02, 2010, 10:02 PM
I dont know how apparent it is to those who aren't paying super close attention, I do have a karma of laziness. Ruler of nn, Mercury is crescent phase sextile to Pluto which is itself in the second house. And that Mercury is combust Neptune. So it's easy for me to only put in half the effort and not experience any particularly devastating catalysts that push me to try harder. I am learning to cultivate a deeper integrity and maturity in the effort I put forth. This is something you, as well as a few others in this community continually inspire in me.

That being said, time to stop prancing around (nodal sesquiquadrate to Pluto involving the gemini/sag archetypes) and complete that planetary nodes practice!

With Love,
Ari Moshe

Sooner or later, Dhyana, I'll be able to communicate phasal relationships like second nature, similar to how Ari Moshe just did ;D.

Wendy 


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Wendy on Dec 03, 2010, 12:23 AM
Wow, I just listed all the planets of my chart and figured out the phases! after reading in Pluto II book about the different phases.  

Dhyana I used the chart Steve posted a ways back to correlate the degrees to the phases.  What I discovered while doing this is it may be easier to have the chart data listed in addition to seeing it on the wheel in terms of memorizing.

New Phase 0-45 degrees:  conjunction, semi-sextile 30, novile 40, semi-square 45

Crescent 45-90 degrees: semi-square 45, septile 51-25', sextile 60, quintile 72, square 90

1st Quarter 90-135 degrees:  square 90, 102-50' biseptile, trine 120, sesquiquadrate 135

Gibbous 135-180 degrees
:  sesquiquadrate 135, biquintile 144, inconjunct, 150, triseptile 154-15', opposition 180

Full 180-225 degrees
:  opposition 180, triseptile 205-45', inconjunct, 210, biquintile 216, sesquiquadrate 225

Disseminating 225-270 degrees:  sesquiquadrate 225, trine 240, biseptile 257-10', square 270

Last Quarter 270-315 degrees:  square 270, quintile 288, sextile 300, septile 308-35', semisquare 315

Balsamic 315-360 degrees
:  semisquare 315, novile 320, semisextile 330, conjunction 360

When I went through to determine the phases and numbers began resonating in my head, i.e., 177 is disseminating, 210 is full, 313 last quarter, etc.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Wendy


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 01:07 AM
Hey Wendy!!!
 
Thanks for sharing with me over the last few posts!

So, can you give me one specific example of one of your planets to the other, and describe exactly how you figured out the phase?

(I had something else written here, but I just changed it bc I am going to try it first before I ask the question I had here. )

I am gonna work with this on paper, like you did Wendy, b4 I ask anymore questions... you know why?  
bc I just realized that i was doing a virgo thing -- getting all overwhelmed, feeling i cant do it yet--im not ready, (and then a pluto in the 7th thing) asking others with out first attempting it myself.
lol


I will be back with what I came up with and see if it is correct.

Be back soon with some phases...

D


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 01:23 AM
Thanks for the inspiration, Wendy!!!! ;)


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 01:27 AM
Dear WEndy,

I rewrote this post. Not sure if you had already read the first one I wrote--

so I am posting the new version here, in case you didnt go back and see I modified it?

Hey Wendy!!!
 
Thanks for sharing with me over the last few posts!

So, can you give me one specific example of one of your planets to the other, and describe exactly how you figured out the phase?

(I had something else written here, but I just changed it bc I am going to try it first before I ask the question I had here. )

I am gonna work with this on paper, like you did Wendy, b4 I ask anymore questions... you know why?  
bc I just realized that i was doing a virgo thing -- getting all overwhelmed, feeling i cant do it yet--im not ready, (and then a pluto in the 7th thing) asking others with out first attempting it myself.
lol


I will be back with what I came up with and see if it is correct.

Be back soon with some phases...

D



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 01:54 AM
Ok, I did this so far --Jupiter Rx is at 4 16 , and Moon is at 6 58  in Leo HOuse 6

So what I did was I subtracted  4.16 from 360 (because JupiterRx is the slower moving planet) and I got 355.84 degree.  or do I subtract the 6.58?



That one was easy though. Because either way this is a Balsamic Conjunction just by looking at it, but I really wanted to see if I was supposed subtract that way????

I will try a harder one next.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 02:18 AM
Now I am trying to find the phase between the Jupiter Rx at 4 16 in Leo H6, in relationship to Saturn 22 57 in Pisces in H1.

This is what I am doing please correct me if I am wrong-- I am starting with JUpiter and going anticlockwise like Ari said.

WHat I did is look at my wheel from astro.com, then I started with the line that ends at the 6th and 5th house, just to find a place to start bc I dont know how to start with 4 16 and count by tens... so i started at the line I saw that divides the houses and I started counting with the tic lines in tens --I counted 10,20,30 40,50 ...110,120.
---then I stopped right at the line between the 2nd and 1st house --Saturn 22 57 was just a few degrees from there.

So, now I don't know if I add 4.16 + 22.57 +120 to get the degree?
or
do I do this, 30 -22.57 = 7.43 (until i get to saturn)
SOOO -- I add 7.53+4.16+120= 131.59
If 131.59 is the correct calculation, then the phasal relationship between my JupiterRX and Saturn would be a first quarter trine or a first quarter sesquiquadrate?

Basically, I just realized that I dont even know if I can use my Saturn and Jupiter bc they are not ALREADY in any kind of relationship like the trine, square, etc etc --

does that matter?

does anyone know what I mean with that above question?
I hope this was written clear enough regarding what my process was?

Im-a-trying... ;D

Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 03, 2010, 02:34 AM
Hi Dhyana,

This is actually a new phase conjunction.  Jupiter is the slower moving planet and so this becomes the baseline.  Count the degrees counterclockwise from Jupiter to the moon...roughly 2 degrees..equalling new phase. 

Stacie


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 02:40 AM
Ok, thanks Stacie!!!!! This is exactly why I am posting this as I do it bc I have no idea what I am really doing --lol

just trying...

Somehow it's not clicking in my brain yet

But I am hopeful it will! Keep giving me feedback.

By any chance, do you know which I was supposed to subtract fro 360?  --the 6  58, or the 4  16  ?? 

I thought I'm supposed to start with 360?

This is why I am posting my process here-- so I can get feedback and corrections.

Thanks again for the speedy response Stacie!  :D


Title: Phases: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree] and more
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 02:50 AM
Hi again Stacie,

I went back and re read what you wrote again --s-l-o-w-l-y...

...SO wait --hmmm?  -i WASNT supposed to use 360 at all with that Jupiter/Moon example?

I was just to subtract 2, and that's it?

I hear you and I know you must be right, but it's still not clicking WHY?


if i went clock wise THEN i could see the two degrees, but not counter clockwise bc jupiter on the wheel is sitting below the moon???  :P


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 03, 2010, 02:57 AM
my god woman what do you have there, mercury in aries?? ;)  i'm typing a response as we speak..and i'm not a little lightning rod like you seem to be, so gimme a few minutes to find my words.  and i adore your enthusiasm.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 03:04 AM
you made me laugh right out loud!!!

no, i have mercury in SCORPIO (but it's conjunct NEPTUNE) in H9

lol


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 03, 2010, 03:12 AM
Hi Dhyana & Stacie,

I was just typing up the Jupiter/Saturn one Stacie, but maybe you're already covering that ...?
No point us both posting on it, that might just be more confusing ...?

Upasika


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 03, 2010, 03:20 AM
ok..first, i don't figure degrees of separation thru a formal mathematical technique, i.e. subtracting whatever from 360.  i approach it visually.  starting at your slowest moving planet, you go in the opposite direction of the clock, counting the degrees along the way.  now i'm not suggesting you should manually count every single degree.  there are tricks.  for example, if saturn is at 22 pisces, we know that 22 virgo (virgo being the polarity point to pisces) will be 180 degrees.  using your jupiter as the other part to this example, we see that jupiter is not quite at 180 degrees, so at least you see right off that its going to be a figure less than 180.  to get to the precise number, you could start at 22 pisces, then count the number of signs, knowing that each sign contains 30 degrees.  so aries, tau, gem, cancer = 4 signs..multiply by 30 and you have 120 degrees.  then just add the degrees left from 22 cancer til you're at 4 leo..12 degrees, equalling a grand total of 132 degrees.  it will become more automatic the more regularly you practice..  

upasika, just saw your post...by ALL MEANS gifted one of the left-brains, if you have a more concise answer, please contribute.

so dhyana..does this make sense so far?..  


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 03:29 AM
Yea, it makes sense so far.

Especially the example you gave of 180 degrees from one sign to its opposite sign is VERY useful !!(because those little tic marks are tiny, and i need my magnifier glasses  8) -LOL)

I have to play with it though.

As an aside--When my husband gives me directions somewhere and he draws a map-- I absolutely cannot read it. BUT when he writes it in full sentences, with word like "right" "left", (but def NOT  the words North, SOuth, East or West) --then I dont get lost.  Otherwise, I do. ;)

Thanks very very much Stacie. And I did have a very late cup of coffee.




Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 03, 2010, 03:36 AM
Hi Dhyana & Stacie,

OK I'll post what I had written up. Its based on a visual just like your approach Stacie, and actually yours is pretty nifty and simple, and if Dhyana you get that, then I'd say you'll be well on the way so don't labor too much with what I've written. But in case it adds anything it's below ...

Jupiter Rx at 4 16 in Leo H6, in relationship to Saturn 22 57 in Pisces in H1.

1. Forget about the houses and Rx, they aren't needed.
2. Determine which planet is slowest ...

... here's that lists again

Relative speeds of the planets/points...
ASCENDANT, MIDHEAVEN
Moon
Mercury
Venus
Mars
Vesta
Juno
Ceres
Pallas
Lucifer
Jupiter
Saturn
Chiron
Uranus
Neptune
Pluto
Sun

.. you can see Saturn is slower (further down the list) than Jupiter so Saturn is the slowest.

3. Start at Saturn and move ANTI  clockwise around the chart till you come to Jupiter.

Saturn 22 57 Pisces
This is almost 23 degees so lets call it that for now ie. Beginning of the 23 deg mark in Pisces

Beg 23 Pisces to beg 23 Aries = 30 degrees
23 Aries to 23 Taurus = 30 degrees
23 Taurus to 23 Gemini = 30 degrees
23 Gemini to 23 Cancer = 30 degrees
=> Thats 30 deg x 4 lots of them = 120 deg we've counted so far  -   and we've got to the beg of 23 Cancer .

Add 7 degrees takes us to beginning of 30 Cancer, then add 1 more for that last deg to take us to the cusp of Cancer & Leo (or 0 Leo)
=> takes our tally up to: 120 + 7 + 1 = 128 deg

Now Jupiter is at 4 16 Leo so add approx 4 1/4 degrees
 => 128 + 4.25 = 132.25 degrees

and look in the list below ....

You'll see that 132.25 is in between First Quarter Trine and First Quarter Sesquiquadrate so its in the First Quarter for sure

Also because it's only 2 3/4 degrees away from 134.99 (which basically is 135 deg), its in orb of a Sesquiquadrate so its actually a First Quarter Sesquiquadrate
.


Degree   Phase Aspect
0           New Conjunction
30         New SemiSextile
36         New Decile
40         New Novile
44.99     New SemiSquare
45         Crescent SemiSquare
51.43     Crescent Septile
60         Crescent Sextile
72         Crescent Quintile
80         Crescent BiNovile
89.99     Crescent Square
90          First Quarter Square
102.86     First Quarter BiSeptile
108         First Quarter SesquiQuintile
120         First Quarter Trine
134.99     First Quarter Sesquiquadrate
135         Gibbous Sesquiquadrate
144         Gibbous BiQuintile
150         Gibbous Quincunx
154.29     Gibbous TriSeptile
179.99     Gibbous Opposition
180         Full Opposition
205.71     Full TriSeptile
210         Full Qunincunx
216         Full BiQuintile
224.99     Full SesquiQuadrate
225         Disseminating Sesquiquadrate
240         Disseminating Trine
252         Disseminating SesquiQuintile
257.14     Disseminating BiSeptile
269.99     Disseminating Square
270         Third Quarter Square
280         Third Quarter BiNovile
288         Third Quarter Quintile
300         Third Quarter Sextile
308.57     Third Quarter Septile
314.99     Third Quarter SemiSquare
315         Balsamic SemiSquare
320         Balsamic Novile
324         Balsamic Decile
330         Balsamic SemiSextile
359.99     Balsamic Conjunction



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 03, 2010, 03:42 AM
nifty..i rather like that word  :)   thanks very much Upasika for supplying that info!..that is great...it is nifty.

so Dhyana, i think i see where the main mix up was when we first started the conversation..perhaps you're confusing the direction of clock-wise with counter-clockwise...that's what i'm hearing from what you posted earlier. that may be clear by now, but in case its not, let's clarify: so if jupiter is at 4 leo and moon is at 6 leo, and we're counting in the counter-clockwise direction, then we go 4 leo..5 leo..to 6 leo. this is counter-clockwise.

and it's not the coffee, it's that *desire* factor!  believe me, i'm in the same boat when it comes to numbers, measurements, and pretty much EVERYTHING linear.  The goof-ups i make are sometimes a magical wonder to behold.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 03:48 AM


and it's not the coffee, it's that *desire* factor!  believe me, i'm in the same boat when it comes to numbers, measurements, and pretty much EVERYTHING linear.  The goof-ups i make are sometimes a magical wonder to behold.


Stacie, i think you might be right about that! ;)

Yea, the clockwise/counterclockwise was a factor as well.

********************************
 
Stacie and Upasika,

I think I follow better now --

I will practice this again tomorrow and post what I came up with.

I feel a lot of gratitude that people all across the globe come together, without ever meeting each other in person, to help each other.

I really truly thank you both for being patient with me.

Upasika, I had already printed the material you posted a couple days ago. And it was those lists that I used to do the little I just tried. Thanks --You have always been so wonderful to me on here.

Love to you both,
Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 03:50 AM
And Stacie,

Thanks for the laugh you gave me here, on top of everything else

D


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 03, 2010, 03:57 AM
most welcome!!...and i know that merc in scorp stuff since i have it there too.

all your points of gratitute are shared.  

glad you're asking the questions..good work..


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Wendy on Dec 03, 2010, 05:53 PM
Somehow it's not clicking in my brain yet

But I am hopeful it will! Keep giving me feedback.

By any chance, do you know which I was supposed to subtract fro 360?  --the 6  58, or the 4  16  ?? 

I thought I'm supposed to start with 360?

This is why I am posting my process here-- so I can get feedback and corrections.

Thanks again for the speedy response Stacie!  :D

Hi Dyhana,

I wrote out all my aspects from the bottom graph which comes with the chart from astro.com.  The list is quite long.  The process of writing out anything I am studying always helps me integrate it internally.

Here's a bit of what my list looks like:

Sun 17 Mercury 27 - conjunction
Moon 24 Venus 18 - trine
Sun 17 Venus 18 - semi-sextile
Moon 24 Mercury 27 - inconjunct/quincunx

I actually used the symbols for the aspects when I manually wrote them out to help me learn more about the ones I am especially unfamiliar with, like the semi-sextile and inconjunct.  I have always confused the two.  Okay, so then I figured out which was the slower moving planet.

Sun is slower than Mercury.  So from left to right-easy 10 degrees.  The conjunction is a New Phase which I looked up on Steve's phase chart which I believe he posted earlier. 

Let's do a harder one.  Jupiter 24 Gemini - Neptune 17 Scorpio

Which is the slower moving planet, Neptune of course.  My Jupiter is in the 12th house and Neptune in the 5th.  I start with 17 Scorpio and count to the right.  I go 30 by 30, 180 if the aspect is more than an opposition.  Meaning I go to the opposite sign, Taurus, which is 180 and add from there.  Then its only one more house of adding to get to Gemini 24.  So 17 degrees Scorpio to 17 Taurus = 180 + another 30 = 210 (17 Gemini) + 7 = 217 (24 Gemini).  217 is a Full Phase Bi-quintile.

Let me know if this helps.

Wendy


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Lucius on Dec 03, 2010, 08:22 PM
I was wondering about the 165 degree aspect.  If there is an EA perspective of it and/or anyone here uses this - I've investigated only briefly & it seems to have meaning in context of charts.  I recall Noel Tyl felt that it related to 'obsession' - I was thinking along the lines of a feeling of 'fated - ness' or destiny.However I could see that quality tying into obsession.  I do believe that this aspect is part of the 'series' of aspects that includes the 135, right?  I assume it's fine to post here versus a new thread?  Thanks.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 03, 2010, 08:34 PM
Yea! Wendy--

that helps because  it's  in basic WORDS and you used math.  It keeps me more organized when I just stick with simple instructions --otherwise I think what I do is over-complicate, over analyse, over theorize/conceptualize, if I dont get simple basic worded instructions.


How you explained that worked for me. Thank you.

I am going to do some of these tonight after I put my son to bed, and post.

Thanks alot for the specific example.
Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 03, 2010, 08:43 PM
Hi All,
I'm actually noticing 3 threads taking place in this one.

I sense it would be a good idea to divide it. I think your question Lucius is good for a new thread, why not?

A few days ago I posted a thread providing guidance for determining the phasal relationship between planets- not sure if its a helpful description, but that may be a place to move this discussion...
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,361.msg5814.html#msg5814  (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,361.msg5814.html#msg5814)

An idea came to me which is to start discussing the aspects in depth. To start a thread for each aspect, in the way that we are doing with the signs. In the same way that we started with Virgo, it makes sense to start with the gibbous phase sesquiquadrate (associated with Virgo).

Steve or another moderator, what do you say about tri-secting this thread and continuing to explore the sesquisquare?
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 03, 2010, 08:47 PM
Hi Upasika,

Quote
  Relative speeds of the planets/points...
ASCENDANT, MIDHEAVEN
Moon
Mercury
Venus
Mars
Vesta
Juno
Ceres
Pallas
Jupiter
South Node, North Node
Saturn
Chiron
Uranus
Neptune
Pluto
Sun

You may want to delete the part in red as we have concluded that such information is not relevant to determining phasal relationships in any case.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 03, 2010, 10:40 PM
Hi Ari,

I dont see anything in red..??

Also not sure why it would be good to delete anything, as its necessary to detemine the slower moving planet before counting.

Also, in the method I outlined it is based on knowing what the faster moving planet is, including the Nodes, and since Steve suggested to leave that post, then this table naturally goes with it.

... not sure what you're suggesting..

Upasika


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 03, 2010, 10:47 PM
Hi Upasika, I meant the "South node, North node"

Well I'll let Steve chime in on that then!


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 04, 2010, 02:59 AM
Thought it would be useful to add lucifer to the list.

Lucifer's orbital period is 4.93 yrs....follows pallas on the handy list.  Upasika, would you might adding this for us?

Stacie


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 04, 2010, 04:16 AM
Hi Ari

I think this thread makes a lot of sense continuing as it has, all in one.  What about changing the name of the thread to expand its scope and staying with what we've started.  We could call it something like Phases: Sesquiquadrate 135 Degrees and more

One reason is there's an energy going here in this thread which is likely to be dissipated if we split it apart.

What do you think?
Steve

Hi All,
I'm actually noticing 3 threads taking place in this one.

I sense it would be a good idea to divide it. I think your question Lucius is good for a new thread, why not?

A few days ago I posted a thread providing guidance for determining the phasal relationship between planets- not sure if its a helpful description, but that may be a place to move this discussion...
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,361.msg5814.html#msg5814  (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,361.msg5814.html#msg5814)

An idea came to me which is to start discussing the aspects in depth. To start a thread for each aspect, in the way that we are doing with the signs. In the same way that we started with Virgo, it makes sense to start with the gibbous phase sesquiquadrate (associated with Virgo).

Steve or another moderator, what do you say about tri-secting this thread and continuing to explore the sesquisquare?
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 04, 2010, 09:56 AM
I tried again--
Start at Saturn go ANTI clockwise bc Saturn moves slower than the Moon.
Saturn at 23 Pisces (I rounded up) and Moon at 7 (rounded up) Leo.
If Moon was at 23 Virgo, it would be 180 degrees. So I know it is going to be less than 180 degrees.
If it would be 180 degrees at 23 Virgo, then I would have to subtract this 23, right?
180-23=157
THis is as far as I got??
And I dont think it is right?

Well, if it is correct, then it's 157 .
Is it correct?
I look on the list and there is nothing at 157.
The closest to 157 is 154.29 Gibbous Tri Septile.

(and do I still have to do something with the 7 degrees of the Moon? How do I figure in the degree of the Moon from that equation)

Ugh, I know this isnt right-- :P

Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 04, 2010, 10:20 AM
Instead I counted tic marks and it was 137 -- is this correct?

My other question is- are we to find the phases between any and everything, or just those things that are already in aspect?

Thanks Again.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Wendy on Dec 04, 2010, 10:31 AM
I tried again--
Start at Saturn go ANTI clockwise bc Saturn moves slower than the Moon.
Saturn at 23 Pisces (I rounded up) and Moon at 7 (rounded up) Leo.
If Moon was at 23 Virgo, it would be 180 degrees. So I know it is going to be less than 180 degrees.
If it would be 180 degrees at 23 Virgo, then I would have to subtract this 23, right?

Hi Dhyana,

Okay 23 Virgo.  Now subtract 23 from Virgo to get to 23 Leo, then subtract 23 Leo from 7 Leo.  The difference is 16.  So 23 from 180 = 157 - 16 = equals 141.  The relationship between Saturn 23 Pisces and Moon 7 Leo is three degrees from a Biqunitile in the Disseminating Phase and six degrees from a Sesquiquadrate.  

Also I always look at the chart when I am counting, this way I can double check while I'm calculating.

You're almost there ;D!!!

Peace & Love,
Wendy




Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 04, 2010, 10:37 AM



Hi Dhyana,
 

...Also I always look at the chart when I am counting, this way I can double check while I'm calculating.


Hi Wendy--

What chart do you always look at when your counting?

Thanks so much,
Dhyana


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Wendy on Dec 04, 2010, 11:54 AM
Hi Dhyana,

Whatever chart I am calculating, plus the phasal chart from Steve.  There's one from someone else too, but don't recall now.  Even when I was doing the calculations for your Saturn-Moon, I looked at the astro wheel (my chart) to see the numbers/signs.  Somehow that helps me keep on track.

Hope this helps.

WEndy



Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 04, 2010, 12:25 PM
are we to find the phases between any and everything, or just those things that are already in aspect?

Hi Dhyana

This answer is based on how you worded your question. As far as EA methodology is concerned, you don't have to find the phases between anything.  It's all completely optional.

The whole point of the phases material in EA is, as was written in Pluto Vol 2, that everything in creation is in a relationship with everything else in creation.  Phases, and within them aspects, are indicators of where in their cycles the two planets (or points or bodies) are in relationship to each other.  The sum total of all those relationships correlates to the sum total of the chart those relationships are appearing in.  

The issue is, there is way too much detail in all of that for almost anyone to be able to take in and assimilate. There are limits to what we can handle.  Thus, Jeffrey laid out what he called "key planetary pairs".  Those are the ones that he felt revealed the most to the EA astrologer.  Thus I suggest concentrating on them, at least in the beginning of learning phases.  This is not to be taken as some form of gospel - you don't have to do it this way.  Its a suggested starting point, at least while learning the system.  Each astrologer is going to find planetary combinations that are especially significant, or insignificant to them, and as they go along they should follow their intuition on this.

The whole point of the cycle of phases and aspects, as opposed to the way typical astrology is taught most of the time, is that whether or not there is an aspect between two bodies, they are still in relationship to each other.  The aspects represent Gateway Points, where either the past meeting the future tends to create stress, as its a time when we are intended to move forward into yet another unknown, or, in the case of harmonious aspects like trines and sextiles, a point of fruition, where all the hard work we have been doing reaches a pinnacle and we get to experience the fruits from our labors for a while.  (The ending of those fruition periods tends to be some of the more difficult periods to release from.  Who wants to go from a time when things are almost magically working back into a time of stress and having to face more things?)

The spaces between aspects are the times when we are simply in the evolutionary learning periods.  This is akin to my description from the other day (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,359.msg5838.html#msg5838) to Serban about how the movement of the seasons from one day to the next is barely perceptible. Yet it is still going on, the proof being that it inevitably reaches the next seasonal change point.  Those seasonal change points are the four squares in the chart, and the day to day movement towards them is like the times when two bodies in the chart are not within orb of an aspect.  The shifting that is then going on between them is the necessary work/changes that lead to their next entrance into the orb of an aspect.

Here are the key planetary pairs that Jeffrey taught, in the order in which he taught them:
Sun / Moon - "the need in all people to actualize the inherent purpose for their life on a day to day basis, to give that purpose a face and image, a way of personally identifying itself, Moon. It describes how the person continuously is integrating them self on a moment to moment, second to second, year to year basis."

Moon / Saturn - "your ability to integrate your ego, your personal identity, who you are within the context of the social systems and/or culture, Saturn, in which you find yourself. The ability to establish your own authority within the authority of the culture."

Mars / Venus - "How one completes oneself through relationships"

Mercury / Jupiter - "how one establishes her beliefs, her principles, her philosophies, and creates the necessary intellectual apparatus to explain them, to communicate them"

Jupiter / Saturn - "Jupiter correlates to your beliefs and how they are in harmony or disharmony with the consensus belief patterns of the culture you are in thus, impacting your ability to economically survive. The economic issue relative to philosophy is obvious. The Jupiter/Saturn cycle has a 20-year life...".
  
Saturn / Uranus - "This is the most important cycle. It has a 48-year life and comes to maturity every 22 years to 24 years after its conjunction. It establishes the social tone, structure, every 48 years. The new social impulse, order, structures.

For myself, I would add Mars / Pluto to that list, and put it at the top of the list.  This pair is described in detail in the Pluto Vol 2 book.

We can have discussion here about each of those key planetary pairs, if people would like that.

On a personal note, this topic of phases and aspects is dear to my heart.  It was inner realizations (that came through working with clients) about the nature of phases and aspects that led to some of my first big EA "aha" moments.  I'm not suggesting this will be a breakthrough area for every EA student.  I am saying the significance of phases and aspects is profound in one's deepening understanding of life in creation, far beyond just the systems called astrology.  

I rarely promote EA School products on this message board.  I will say here, the material on phases and aspects covered in Pluto Vol 2 is about 20 percent of what is in the printed phases and aspects transcript.  I'd call it invaluable for serious EA students.  The Cycles of Becoming workshop DVD covers 3.5 hours of similar material captured at a live workshop.  (Its fine to start with one.)
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 04, 2010, 12:29 PM
Hi Steve
Quote
Hi Ari

I think this thread makes a lot of sense continuing as it has, all in one.  What about changing the name of the thread to expand its scope and staying with what we've started.  We could call it something like Phases: Sesquiquadrate 135 Degrees and more

One reason is there's an energy going here in this thread which is likely to be dissipated if we split it apart.

What do you think?

I think that sounds good reasoning.
AM


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 04, 2010, 03:06 PM
Popped Lucifer in there Stacie ...


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 04, 2010, 06:23 PM
Hi Upasika, I meant the "South node, North node"

Well I'll let Steve chime in on that then!

Hi Ari
I don't see any need to remove the table of the relative speeds of the planets/bodies/points in space.  That could be helpful to some people.  As long as its clearly stated that is not considered in calculating phases to nodes.  Its very much considered in determining phases to planets etc.  Since we have expanded the range of this topic to general issues about phases and aspects, it seems helpful to have it there.  My initial concern was only that people not get confused.   I'm pretty sure we have addressed that now.  Do you agree?
thanks
Steve
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 05, 2010, 01:22 AM
Hi Steve,

Quote
Since we have expanded the range of this topic to general issues about phases and aspects, it seems helpful to have it there.  My initial concern was only that people not get confused.   I'm pretty sure we have addressed that now.  Do you agree?

Well I agree that it makes sense to keep the relative speeds of planets up there as that helps as a starting point for determining the phases. However to put the nodes in there, in between Saturn and Jupiter, seems to communicate that knowing the relative speed of the lunar nodes is necessary in order to determine phases involving the nodes and other points.

My feeling is, it's ok to put that up there, however there should be some sort of asterisk or clarification stating that the speed of the lunar nodes has absolutely no relevance in determining any phase with any celestial body.

Otherwise, I think its valuable to know how quickly the nodes move. No data is innately irrelevant or meaningless. However, no matter which system you use for determining phases (start with the planet and move clockwise, or start with the node and move counter clockwise), because the mean motion of the lunar nodes is retro, knowing their relative speed is irrelevant for determining phasal relationships.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 05, 2010, 03:56 AM
Hi Steve and Ari,

To me, I think its pretty clear in the post, and this whole thread now, what the preferred MB method is for calculating the phase between a planet and a node is. In the post itself there is a coloured sentence that says the method described is an alternative method and to first go to the preferred method later in the thread. And in the whole thread itself it has now been stated many times what the preferred method is.

The table of relative speeds is just that ... a table of planetary speeds. It is relevant for the method I described in that post and is required by the method in that post, therefore should stay as it is so the post actually makes sense. And the table is actually positioned at the end on its own and is also a good general reference. Marking the Nodes in it may cause as much confusion as it seeks to avoid. And at the end of the day, its just a simple table of relative planetary speeds, no more or less.

In my reply post to Dhyana later on, I could take the Nodes out of that table, as that was for her to use and she was using the preferred method then which doesn't need them ...so I'll do that now.

The preferred method is not the only valid method, its just the preferred method. Jeffrey actually suggested the alternative method, that I posted, in the old MB archives - although as has been pointed out he later settled on what is what we are now calling the preferred method as the best method to promote as the primary EA method.

If you feel that the original table in the original post needs to be changed let me know. But if so I'd almost be inclined to remove the whole alternative method instead, as my feeling is it would just start to get confusing itself unless its own clarity and simpleness is left intact. I don't mind one way or the other, but its starting to feel as if we're unnecessarily splitting hairs about things here.

Let me know what you think...

Upasika


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Steve on Dec 05, 2010, 05:26 AM
Hi Upasika

You've made it really clear from the beginning of this thread that you are fine with everything I've suggested (as far as the method and your original post) and I get that is still completely true.

I agree with your feeling that its been made very clear what the preferred method is in a number of posts, and I also agree with you that it isn't the only method.  I am fine with you leaving your table the way it is.

Ari, I think the point that its been explained thoroughly in other posts on this thread is valid.  And I agree that for purposes other than calculating phases to the nodes it is useful to have the nodes in that table.

Two suggestions also come to mind:
1)  Since we talk about planetary nodes on this board a lot, it might be good if in the table you mark the line for nodes as the Lunar nodes, so its really clear.  Otherwise at some point someone undoubtedly will want to know the phasal relationship to the nodes of Pluto, look at the chart and see north node/south node, and draw the incorrect conclusion.  Unfortunately that does happen when things are not clearly labeled.
2)  Since we are leaving the table for future reference, if you feel like adding more, it might be good to include the length of the orbit next to the name of the planet, body, or point.  Such as Mars 2 years, Jupiter 12 years, Nodes 18 years, etc.  That addition is completely optional, only if you feel like doing it. I'd say its fine to be specific if you want to, as in Lunar nodal cycle = 18.6 years rather than 18, or just round to the more common 18.  Whatever you feel is most useful.

This thread has been tedious at times (necessarily I feel) and I want to acknowledge and thank you for the detail you've put into what you have posted, and for your patience and willingness to go along with the conclusions about the easiest way to present this for the majority of EA students. 
thank you
Steve


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Stacie on Dec 05, 2010, 08:39 AM
Thanks for adding lucifer, Upasika.

Stacie


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 05, 2010, 02:23 PM
Hi Steve,

Good ideas, thanks - so I'll make it clear it's the Lunar Nodes, and will add the orbit length at a later point when I've got some time ... getting really squeezed for time now as the end of the year draws to a close !

Ari - I know you're concerned that people might be confused, so although it's unlikely, if I decide to include a copy of the the table in another post at any time, in relation to calculating the phase between a planet and Moon's nodes using our preferred method, I'll make sure I don't include the nodes in that copy ... that makes good sense to me too. Is this level of clarification ok with you?

Upasika

 


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Upasika on Dec 05, 2010, 02:38 PM
That's no trouble at all Stacie, it's great having Lucifer in there now... if you've got the data for any other asteroids etc that you'd like added just let me know.


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 05, 2010, 02:49 PM
Yeah sure, it's all ok with me. And thank you again for making this list.

Actually Steve, maybe what Upasika has compiled (relative speeds as well as list of degrees) is something worth wile posting on the misc thread where you have the phasal charts and other such things?
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Gonzalo on Dec 06, 2010, 05:18 PM
Hi Steve

Quote
We tend towards projecting stuff onto others at times instead of accepting responsibility for what is actually our own stuff.

Now I see what is going on with me, and the stuff I'm projecting. This is unresolved trauma. Transiting Pluto squaring my Sun/Uranus 3rd House Libra conjunction opposed by 9th House Chiron in Aries is bringing this dynamic, and a few other dynamics, to a head. And this particular dynamic involving being right or wrong, reflected in this signature, is connected to some of the past lives trauma of this Soul. It is true that I don't care anymore about being right or wrong; though, until the repressed energy of such trauma is released, it will keep manifesting over and over within my psyche in a cardinal fashion (Libra/Aries). This should be the right time to finally resolve this stuff (Transiting Pluto squaring Sun/Uranus-Chiron; transiting Uranus opposing Pluto, which is conjunct the Sun). I think such release should work in direct proportion to how much I am bing able to reformulate my self-image and properly identify my natural ego (North Node ruler Neptune squaring the nodes from 4th House Scorpio). I now this thread is not about me, but I felt necessary to acknowledge my stuff, as you pointed out. Thank you for this, Steve.   

God Bless,

Gonzalo


 




Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: tantrajee on Oct 29, 2014, 09:18 AM
PS : Saturne incarne aussi le Besoin et le Devoir de Sécurité.                                                                       Lorsqu’il forme Sesqui Carré aux Planètes personnelles, cela est très déstabilisant, handicapant, hyper bloquant et paranoïsant.                                                                                                                                             

Avec Vénus, c’est l’argent, les sentiments, le choix partenarial et le relationnel amoureux                                         qui sont impactés à cause de nos choix insécures, de notre désobéissance, il y a insuffisance de maturité en la matière (la peur de manquer est une réalité).                                                                                     

Avec Mars en même temps, c’est l’imago du Couple –apporté à la naissance-(nous venons tous au monde avec une Imago du Couple) qui est mis à la question.                                                                                         Ce sont les actes et l’énergie du sujet pour aller chercher de l’argent (pour lui et le couple qu’il forme)                                                         comme pour se relier à ce/ceux qu’il aime, qui peuvent être entravées, empêchées (l’entrave à l’action            est une réalité).                                                 

Les besoins de sécurité ne sont pas entendus ni honorés pour raison de suffisance,                                                       de désobéissance (idiotes, ô combien ?).                                                                                                                   C’est un vécu de conscience et une réalité inacceptable pour Saturne et concrètement                                –vu l’état de société actuelle- très dommageable.                                                                                     

Le porteur de ce triple aspect -c'est moi- (Vénus Carré Mars, Saturne Sesqui Carré Mars et Vénus,                      sans parler des 2 semi-carrés Vénus et Mars au Soleil) ne comprend rien                                                   à cette nécessité de vie et est en conflit tant avec lui-même qu’avec autrui.                                 

Conflit intrapsychique et conflit interpersonnel pour non respect au Devoir obligé de sécurité

Saturne/Soleil Opposés en 3e/9e : le sujet n’arrive pas à comprendre quelque chose.                                           Capricorne/Cancer : responsabilité et infantilité coexistent en lui

1er Sesqui : espace symbolique Lion (Fierté rebelle de l’expression libre de l’Ego                                              -fausse belle image puisqu’elle n’est pas accréditée mais discréditée par Saturne-)

2e Sesqui : espace symbolique Scorpion (Libre exercice du pouvoir apparent de l’Ego                                                 dans l’espace du partage des ressources mais aussi dans l’espace de transformation doublement obligée -par le signe symbolique et par le sesqui-).                                                       

Revoir sa liberté de choix à la baisse car handicapée et handicapante et rentrer dans l’ordre requis                       par les figures d’autorité et sécuritaires –Saturne-

NB : for those who need , I can write, translate my text in english
Only ask it !


Title: Re: Phases & aspects [began as Sesquiquadrate 135 Degree]
Post by: Linda on Oct 29, 2014, 02:06 PM
Hello and welcome Tantrajee!

Yes ~ please translate and send your question to us in English.

I know that your post is written in French.  However, this is a

good opportunity to mention to everyone that we have a

Spanish section on the EA message board moderated by Gonzalo.

Here's the link:

Astrología Evolutiva - Foro en Español
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php?board=10.0

Love,

Linda