School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: Bradley J on Dec 21, 2010, 08:50 PM



Title: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Dec 21, 2010, 08:50 PM
Capricorn Archetype:

Hi All:  I was excited to be asked to host the Capricorn thread.
I have this joke with myself that I have been asked b/c I have sn ruler mars in cap in the 10th inconjunct saturn; and conjunct mercury in cap in 10th. :)  Besides this, both my children are Capricorn Suns with a lot of other Cap.  Oh, I could go on and on, but...really..anyway...

Here is a story which i recently began thinking about the Capricorn archetype within it.
This story is based in an era in which there was not yet the great distortions of natural laws and therefore does not have the conditioning aspect of Capricorn/10th/Saturn associated with the ways of the world today.  The structure of society and the ‘laws’ of the people being a result of natural cultural ways of living, beliefs, etc.

This story starts within a small village.  There was a powerful storm the year before and a majority of the community’s plant medicine was lost or ruined by the elements.  9 months later, one of the villagers fell deathly sick.  The local shaman went on a vision quest to seek the answer to what medicine could be used to heal this person.  

Emerging from the vision quest, the shaman approached the circle of elders.  She explained that what she saw was the root of a rare plant that grows far away, high up in the mountains, where mountain goats live.  She could explain what the plant looks like, however no one but her has seen this plant.  She also added that she was too old to travel for this medicine, and that  she also did not recommend any of the community’s elders making such a journey.  The circle made a choice together, after much discussion.  The next day, a young man without family was called to be present.  He was given the choice of this difficult mission, which would risk his own life if he were to go.  He had to go alone and be quick if they were to have the medicine in time.  Even as he felt the weight of this responsibility, he knew in his heart he would go; it was the right thing to do.  

Before the story goes on, I wanted to highlight the Cap/10/Saturn archetype here.  Naturally, we have our roles and responsibilities, duties and obligations to our selves and our people.  This is Capricorn.  Clearly, the lack of today’s youth even having a meaningful role,in my own country, America, is but one problem.  Throwing ourselves back to times when we relied on each other for survival(taurus/2nd), the natural trine to Cap/10 reveals the ease with which survival can occur when a group is organized in their shared responsibilities, duties, and commitments.  And, sometimes, there are situations in which our soul’s choose to experience a more intense experience to evolve our capacity to achieve our goals, whether or not they come from a shared/community source or a purely egocentric place.  Here in lies distortions of Capricorn - for Capricorn, as a pure archetype is not about achieving one’s own goals for purely selfish motives.  There are, in this reality, always responsibilities which need to be met.  Naturally, what one is responsible for leads into a growing sense of inner security and a home that nurtures. (Cap --> Cancer).

Back to the story, here this young man has stepped up to the call of the group need: a serious responsibility which demands great focus,  commitment, motivation, self discipline and emotional control.  The task, to achieve this requires meeting a deadline. The need for maturity is brought up, naturally.  

Well, in this story, the decision that led into this was by the group’s own ‘authority’ on healing and medicine.  There is a natural potential to also experience/face judgement in this story.  What if he would have not gone?  Judgement exists here as a natural byproduct of the energetic ‘recognition’ or lack of.  If there is a valid reason he should not go, it then becomes his responsibility to assert this.  In the words of Jeffery Wolf Green, there is a “lesson of how to establish their individuality and authority within a culture or society.”


Some thoughts and questions:
Pondering the tie in to cancer polarity, relative to the natural archetypal need to control emotions, as example in the story.  
Another example of natural need to control inner emotional needs relative to days of old, and still relevant today, is hunting - where the success(cap) of the hunt relies on capacity to control inner reality, and to ‘freeze’/be still/statue-like.

I wanted to reach an undistorted perception of Capricorn initially here by expressing the natural need to control emotions directly related to completing/accomplishment of external task, responsibilites, goals, work, etc.  When the need to no longer achieve and stay motivated is required, there is a break, there is then space for the natural chaos of inner emotions to be free to be experienced.  Often, thought of as being able to “be one’s self again”.  

Here is one personal question, which I know I could read more about in the Pluto books, but also wanted to ‘throw out here’:

In the dvd on sexuality, it was a news flash for me regarding how Capricorn will come off as concrete/frozen - yet is actually desiring to access chaos.  This directly ties into warming up, with enough time to relax into being who we are - so my question is:
Is this capricorn going into cancer or is this an example of a dynamic just in capricorn alone?

Also, I am curious about the natural dynamics of domination and being dominated.  There are two horses outside my back door.  One of the horses, naturally dominates the other - repeatedly.  It is really interesting to watch.  The one who is repeatedly controlled is the older one and seems to kinda mind but not really going to do anything about it.

Just a few more Capricorn thoughts....

Look forward to hearing from everyone.

Goddess Bless,

Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Skywalker on Dec 22, 2010, 05:27 AM
Bradley,
Nice Capricorn introduction! You reminded me of something funny... I have a cousin that is married to a Cap, has two Cap daughters, his house keeper is a Cap and so is his dog! He also has a son that is an Aquarius but his Sun is conjunct Saturn!

Anyway, regarding the desire for loss of control, I believe it´s exactly what you wrote about the ability to be one´s own self again. To let go of the pressure/expectations and allow the inner child to manifest freely.

Capricorn in its natural expression is the need to take responsibility for our own actions, to understand that wisdom comes from hard won experience. Capricorn is where Sagittarius finds out what is applicable and what is not. Sagittarius is the search for truth, for justice, while Capricorn will be the tester. Kronos is Zeus´s father in mythology, indicating that Capricorn is there to put Sag´s idealism into practical use. In an undistorted sense Capricorn is the father who should protect his children and set the example of how to responsibly contribute to a larger social structure. Capricorn in this sense is mastery of the self, not by suppressing the inner child but by allowing it to mature and by giving it the necessary structure to do so.

In the distorted sense we have Capricorn who wishes to maintain power and authority as its main goal. Where instead of maturing we have crystalized into something corrupted that thwarts growth. Like today´s politicians, who with their cynical smiles pretend to provide what is needed but, instead are only working for their own interests. Just like Kronos who wishes to eat his children in order to stay in power.

Capricorn is the notion of time and space, the third dimension of physical reality. Here is where we choose whether the physical plane is a limiting factor or whether it is a necessary testing ground to proceed with our Soul´s evolution.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Dec 23, 2010, 10:01 PM
Hi Bradley--thanks so much for heading up this Capricorn thread.  I would like to participate with some specific responses to your post and to Skywalker's too, and for now I had these thoughts tonight after watching 'A Christmas Carol' animated verison on Netflix. 

Tonight, the night before Christmas eve, I am filled with gratitude for the blessings I have received this year from those who were so willing to extend their generosity, faith, time, and elder wisdom--helping me step out of hardship towards productive livelihood and comfort.   

With that in mind, when I watched this animated version of 'A Christmas Carol' http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Christmas_Carol_The_Movie/70131173?trkid=2361637#height1326 (http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Christmas_Carol_The_Movie/70131173?trkid=2361637#height1326)tonight (which was well done), I witnessed the symbolization of EA in it (about soul bondage and karma), while also realizing how appropriate the film is to our current times. 

A Christmas Carol truly captures the negative and positive aspects of the Capricorn archetype (also Sag too)--the greed of the banks and big corporations and possibility of change/transformation.  I pray the ghost of the past, present and future visit all those in need of awakening.

Happy Holidays,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Dec 24, 2010, 12:40 AM
Skywalker,

thank you for those insights and perspective.

I really loved this one especially.  New dentrites are forming!
Capricorn in this sense is mastery of the self, not by suppressing the inner child but by allowing it to mature and by giving it the necessary structure to do so.

Wendy, thanks for chiming in.  I also enjoy 'A Christmas Carol' and, like you and echoing Rad's words, carry that prayer in my heart and on my lips.  May just one more soul, holding vast sums of wealth and resources awaken to the truth of the path of suffering they walk, awaken to the potential for the heart to open and realize the amazing joy of sharing and allowing to flow thru them that which has been held onto.  To realize the more we allow these gifts and resources to flow thru our lives, the more we receive, to realize there is, ultimately nothing in the end for the everything they have desired up til now.  Goddess, may it be so.



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 24, 2010, 06:58 AM
Hi Bradley,

Thanks so much for starting and facilitating this thread.  What a great story to start it off with!  I happened to be doing a little reading up on Capricorn just before you started this.  I thought this poem from Patricia Walsh's book (Understanding Karmic Complexes..) really got to the Capricorn archetype, so I thought I'd post it here.  It's by Rainer Maria Rilke

"Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
And his children say blessings on him as if he were dead.

And another man, who remains inside his own house,
dies there, inside the dishes and in the glasses,
so that his children have to go far out into the world
toward that same church, which he forgot."

I think it gets to the suppression and dominance themes brought up so far...

Warmly,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Lucius on Dec 24, 2010, 10:04 PM
The Capricorn archetype has become increasingly relevant to me as, through the years, I've tried to slough off the patriarchal conditioning patterns and unconscious assumptions.  It may seem odd that Capricorn would lead me in this since it typically defines the 'patriarchy' in general - in reality it would/does typify any structure of any reality - since it is ruled by Saturn we see the necessity of the structure.  For me, Capricorn (and the other earth signs) have helped bring me down to earth where we belong.  Capricorn has taught me the meaning of boundaries & limitations - that this particular form in this particular reality and it's limitations creates the necessary journey & lessons I need.  Just as the ego is a necessary limitation on the soul - for a reason.  I have found that Capricorn seems to be of the essence when delving into any 'indigenous' spiritual perspectives -- there is always respect and awe for the life form itself and it's particular destiny that form & limit entails because that is also it's specific wisdom and meaning.  I've been trying to understand the chakras better and it is not surprising one of the rulers of the root chakra is Saturn - it seems to be an irony that understanding one's limitations facilitates in transforming them - very much the root chakra and the sound of bees, the industrious harvesters of the 'invisible' into the nectar of honey and the pollinators of the world seems very apt.  The root chakra has always seemed the most volatile - and just as in the Kali yuga - that may seem a hindrance but it's very nature can create opportunity for evolution.

I posted this awhile back on another thread about the positive Capricorn/Saturn nature, it's from a book called 'native american healing' by howard p badhand:

"We have to know capability, ability, and how far we can stretch things, but we must also know how to define and discrimninate the difference between good and evil.  In the world, this is the backbone of people's behavior.  The rules of conduct, the rules of behavior, morality.  When you look out in the world, when you look at a tree, and you see it's beauty, and you see it's perfection as a living entity, when you wake up one day and realize that the beauty and perfection of that tree came about because of the boundaries that define what it is, you'll realize that life is not meant to be a path of unlimited possibilities.  Unlimited possibilities for human kind would make human kind dissolve into the boundless......We attain free spirit when we surround ourselves with these boundaries, and by these boundaries, we determine for ourselves what our duty is....this leads to the proper relationship between you and the Spirit World, between you and the service you provide, and it allows people to know what to ask of you because your conduct, your behavior, will show them."


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Dec 25, 2010, 07:44 AM
Hi Lucius, I really appreciate what you have shared here.  I too have a growing relationship with Capricorn, and had thoughts I wanted to share.

It may seem odd that Capricorn would lead me in this since it typically defines the 'patriarchy' in general - in reality it would/does typify any structure of any reality - since it is ruled by Saturn we see the necessity of the structure. . .Capricorn (and the other earth signs) have helped bring me down to earth. . .I've been trying to understand the chakras better and it is not surprising one of the rulers of the root chakra is Saturn.
The root chakra has always seemed the most volatile - and just as in the Kali yuga - that may seem a hindrance but it's very nature can create opportunity for evolution.

I have lots of earth in my chart (Virgo and Capricorn) and last year during my Saturn opposition I performed a in a Spiritual Belly Dance recital in dedication to the Divine Feminine.  Our practice included six months of daily prayer, mantra, and physical meditation practices, as well as the choreography and practice of, our own individual dance and a group dance.  I chose to dance on a pentagram (created with tape on a large blanket) and a sword.  I titled the dance Ancient Venus-Ancient Mary.  

I mention this because of my experience, after practicing for months and finally performing (and that night during my sleep and all during the next week) I was deeply grounded to the core of the earth, and saw the pentagram at the very center of it.  Earth-metal, even though I called the dance ancient Venus/Mary, the dance could have easily been titled Ancient Saturn.    

I am sure this experience I had, the dedication and honor imbued with the dance, was not a new experience for me, and I am sure in the ancient past, when natural law was honored, this sort of dedication to Saturn was common, maybe during the Winter Solstice - Saturnalia prior to Roman times.  

This year, I decided I would dedicate (Virgo) and honor the time of Capricorn through dancing the same dance regularly, to ground deeply within my core to the core of earth, to honor Saturn, for me the oldest and wisest aspect of feminine earth.  I find this is a great way to stay hopeful and understanding of the silence of winter - the internal nature of Capricorn.

I have found that Capricorn seems to be of the essence when delving into any 'indigenous' spiritual perspectives -- there is always respect and awe for the life form itself and it's particular destiny that form & limit entails because that is also it's specific wisdom and meaning.
 

I too feel this way.  Capricorn, to me, represents honorable wisdom, which the indigenous cultures lived by.  The story of White Buffalo Calf woman is a good example.

I posted this awhile back on another thread about the positive Capricorn/Saturn nature, it's from a book called 'native american healing' by howard p badhand:

"We have to know capability, ability, and how far we can stretch things, but we must also know how to define and discrimninate the difference between good and evil.  In the world, this is the backbone of people's behavior.  The rules of conduct, the rules of behavior, morality.  When you look out in the world, when you look at a tree, and you see it's beauty, and you see it's perfection as a living entity, when you wake up one day and realize that the beauty and perfection of that tree came about because of the boundaries that define what it is, you'll realize that life is not meant to be a path of unlimited possibilities.  

Unlimited possibilities for human kind would make human kind dissolve into the boundless......We attain free spirit when we surround ourselves with these boundaries, and by these boundaries, we determine for ourselves what our duty is....

What a perfect way to describe living on earth.

Another piece I wanted to mention is the feminine aspect of Capricorn.  

The ruler of Capricorn is Saturn, a masculine planet (or so they say).  These rulerships I don't agree with, or don't understand.  Looking at Saturn in terms of natural law, Saturn is correlated to time, time in the natural world is kept by the seasons, by mother nature.  Weather and the earth would have been the timekeepers, regulating the behavior of the earth inhabitant's.  

Collectively, Capricorn-Saturn is "ruled" by patriarchy, thus the true forms of Capricorn (and Virgo) are misguided and misused.  Virgo and Capricorn are the only two signs (which are intrinsically feminine) in the entire zodiac with masculine ruling planets (Mercury and Saturn).  If these two feminine archetypes were restored to the rightful honor and place, our world would understand the importance of discernment for the earth and have more respect, honor, for how we manage living here.  

Have to go now...be back to add more later.

Blessed Be,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Dec 26, 2010, 02:21 AM
Ellen,
Thank you for sharing this.  

I am asking God/dess what are the reasons soul's in ego form suppress natural emotions(polarity to cancer/4th) and feelings(trine to 2nd/taurus and square to libra/7th) and desires(square to aries/1st).  I am getting that the answer can truly be infinite, yet each soul's own reason is reflected in the birth chart.  
One example of the need to suppress based on survival needs is reflected in the natural trine from capricorn to taurus.  In trine fashion, when survival is an issue, it is very easy to naturally suppress one's core feelings.  

In Pluto II, JWG wrote "...whatever any of us suppress, for whatever reasons, becomes distorted."

Rereading the venus capricorn section, JWG thankfully makes this dynamic very clear.  As Capricorn/Saturn/10th is maturation, relative to it's evolution thru polarity - ego(cancer/moon/4th), we are talking about emotional maturing.  The suppression of inner self comes from the moment of wounding in the past.  To go from distorted(shadow of cap) to clarity(positive of cap), the momentum of the depression need not be resisted, as I am understanding this.  Opposite of teachings of patriarchal culture, the process of reflection and going backward(into the past wounding) to unlock the moment of cut off/block from emotional nurturing - back to get in touch with one's inner child and then allow it to mature and grow is an essential piece.  Hence, the backward to move forward dynamic.
    This aspect of Capricorn is clearly yin/feminine AND clearly discouraged by patriarchal society/reality/conditioning.  In this light, because of this distortion of natural law, the natural process of grief and morning ,stemming from inner wounds, (which we see in so many distorted forms) is suppressed.  To not suppress this natural momentum represents inclusion of a feminine principle of the Capricorn Archetype which has been distorted.   This is one key to the missing yin/feminine dynamic of Capricorn.  
On a side note, I have always thought interesting the symbolism of water freezing, which actually then expands and is one of the most powerful elements of changing the surface of the earth.

Lucius, thank you for sharing this and reposting this piece from Howard P Badhand; it was very moving to read.  What you wrote reminds me that it is thru existing within limits which we awaken limitlessness, thru time which we experience timelessness.  Appreciate bringing in the link to the root chakra.  Again, sitting with this concept of Capricorn and structure, suddenly I am asking "what is not feminine about structure?"  Structures really are the matrix which holds the existence of all life in the third dimension.  To hold and/or contain something is yin/feminine, right?  The perplexing paradox of patriarchal paradigm is that we are being 'held' by yang/masculine(distortions of) laws.

Wendy, WoW! thanks for sharing this amazing personal story.   Certainly illustrates the rewards of commitment.  The wisdom of experience emerging from dedication and discipline.  Beautiful



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Dec 27, 2010, 08:28 AM
Again, sitting with this concept of Capricorn and structure, suddenly I am asking "what is not feminine about structure?"

Structures really are the matrix which holds the existence of all life in the third dimension.  To hold and/or contain something is yin/feminine, right?  The perplexing paradox of patriarchal paradigm is that we are being 'held' by yang/masculine(distortions of) laws.

The structures being built mostly dishonor and disturb the yin-feminine.  It's all so simple, too bad the ruling consciousness makes it so complicated.




Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 27, 2010, 08:48 AM
Hi All,

First I want to say that I have appreciated everything that everyone has written so far but, as is so often the case with deep learning and insight, I don't have anything directly to say in response.  What follows is just another attempt at deciphering the Capricorn archetype.  I think it touches on what others have said so far, but from a slightly different angle.  I hope it adds something...

On someone's advice, I just happen to be reading the Hicks' book, The Amazing Power of Deliberate Intent.  I realize people have different opinions about abundance type teachings.  My point isn't to bring up a discussion about that.  Rather, it just so happens they bring up a distinction that to me seems quite relevant to this discussion about Capricorn, so I wanted to share it.  What caught my attention with regard to Cap is when they talk about the "Action Journey" and the "Emotional Journey".  The Action Journey is the factual journey - the nuts and bolts - the way you get there, how long it takes, etc.  In essence it is the time-and-space journey.  The Emotional Journey is your INNER emotional responses/reactions to the journey you're taking.  The teaching they channel is that it is the Emotional aspect of any journey that is the place to focus on to bring about positive change, ie, the inner journey as opposed to the outer one. Cap is structure - time and space (outer).  Where Cap goes wrong (in this patriarchal world only?) is in thinking that time and space (outer) is all there is, and thus it gets stuck, believing that "what is" is all there is, rather than understanding that "what is" is simply a moment in time - a platform (structure) from which to take the next step.  It is what we have created, but not necessarily what must come next.  The Emotional Journey - our connection to our inner emotional truth - is where possibility lies.  The mistake that Cap makes is in thinking that the form is reality.  The center of bones is not hard but soft and fluid-like.  Perhaps it could be said that what in fact what makes up form/structure is the emotional center....?  So I echo Bradley's question: is this Cap, or Cancer polarity?  Like Skywalker, I'm inclined to think it is all part of the Cap archetype - the tail in the waters of the ocean...


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Dec 27, 2010, 06:14 PM
Hi All,

I find it interesting that I am the most interactive in the Capricorn thread, more than any other we have covered thus far.  Saturn is the skipped step in my chart and Capricorn my Moon.  Housemate is away too, so I have lots of sacred space to contemplate without too much interference.

The other day after reading Lucius' post and then posting mine, I went out.  Just up the block, I saw a young boy walking his dog and I thought 'here's an example of Capricorn'.  This young boy was taking responsibility for life--the life of a dependent being (Cancer).  Then I thought, 'what we create in the emotional body, in the womb, we are responsible to and for.

When structures are built, and rules and laws are created without the intelligence of the emotional body, or the value it affords, the shadow of Capricorn is operating.  In the field of massage and bodywork we use the term 'armoring'.  Armoring usually manifests as a protective mechanism for the emotional body (the chakras).  So over the years I have worked extensively with individuals wanting to eliminate 'pain'.  In my work with them, I offer Energy Pilate's, a core modality, which includes balancing the emotional body.  We spend the first fifteen minutes or more of a session balancing the emotional body (the chakras) before building muscle.  This way true integrative strength is built.  

Without the inclusion of the emotional body, the client (any person working out) builds armor, not strength.  

The other thing I thought about was the natural square to Capricorn---Aries and Libra.  The warrior and the mediator...

God'dess Bless,
WEndy



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 27, 2010, 10:44 PM
Wendy's quote: "When structures are built, and rules and laws are created without the intelligence of the emotional body, or the value it affords, the shadow of Capricorn is operating. In the field of massage and bodywork we use the term 'armoring'.  Armoring usually manifests as a protective mechanism for the emotional body (the chakras).  So over the years I have worked extensively with individuals wanting to eliminate 'pain'.  In my work with them, I offer Energy Pilate's, a core modality, which includes balancing the emotional body.  We spend the first fifteen minutes or more of a session balancing the emotional body (the chakras) before building muscle.  This way true integrative strength is built. 

Without the inclusion of the emotional body, the client (any person working out) builds armor, not strength.


Thank you so much for this, Wendy!  Really just hit it right on for me.

Peace,
Ellen

PS Energy Pilates sounds intriguing.  I will have to look into it...


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Deva on Dec 28, 2010, 08:26 AM
This is a great thread! Wanted to add some thoughts about Capricorn and the dynamic of emotional repression. It is not uncommon that people who a have an emphasized Capricorn signature to have the experience of being forced to grow up very quickly out of life circumstances they cannot control. In some cases these people in childhood have acted as a type of defacto parent to their own parents because of the mother or fathers, or both, emotional instability. In other words, the person was forced to grow up too quickly, and had many responsibilities at an early age. However, relative to the 4th house, or cancer polarity point, the person will also desire to be the child at some point in time, or at least access the emotions that were repressed during childhood. There is also a fear of vulnerability which leads to trying to control or suppress emotions. This can be out of difficult childhood experiences where the person was in someway hurt when in a vulnerable state, or having an early family environment where it was not safe to express natural emotions or to be vulnerable. Again, in order for the Capricorn archtype to be expressed in a natural, or undistorted state, those emotions must be accessed and released. It is a very real sense of having to go backwards in order to go forwards!

Deva



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Dec 28, 2010, 11:12 AM
Hi All,

Wendy, Ellen, and Deva - thank you for adding these posts, really appreciate your insights and sharing!
Bluesky - thank you for this question. 
I have not time now, but will make an effort to answer later today and/or respond more if there is more to say.  :)

Blessings,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 28, 2010, 02:14 PM
Hi All,

Just wondering about security with the Capricorn archetype and if anyone has any thougths/insights.  I'm thinking that for the distorted archetype, security would lie in the act of suppressing - keeping the emotional reality at bay.  The security would be in the role that one has adopted out of necessity - a role that is in actuality beyond one's actual emotional means/maturity.  So in a sense, the security is in a kind of status that comes about from having a specific role that others rely on the person for.  The downside in this distorted expression is that the person actually never gets to mature and never gets to really come to know her/himself.

In the natural archetype, I would think that security would come in the form of emotional attunement that leads to emotional maturation that allows one to fulfill one's true function in the world...

Just some thoughts.  I'm wondering if others have ideas about it.

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Dec 28, 2010, 02:21 PM
Ellen, did you see Deva's post on the first page? She mentioned emotional suppression. Maybe what she wrote answers your question?


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 28, 2010, 03:51 PM
Hi Wendy,

Thanks.  Yes, I did see it.  Actually, it's what prompted my question.  I was pondering how specifically it ties into security.  I wrote out what I was thinking about it and was wondering if others had thoughts on it.

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Tamara on Dec 29, 2010, 05:32 AM
I also think of the 'responsibility' of Frodo to return the Ring to the fires of Mount Doom, in J. R. R. Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings." I want to say Tolkein has cap/cancer nodes, but I may or may not be correct.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Dec 29, 2010, 11:17 AM
Hi,
Just getting back now. 
Ellen, regarding the security question, I'm going to toss out what I think.
It seems  that one finding security in the suppression is due to the comfortableness of conformity, or that is the 'obeying' the right and wrong and normalness of consensus, as conditioned thru the parents, family and culture/religion of birth.
 
Also, that it is entirely possible that in past lives one has found security in suppression of natural desires, yet is now needing to go back to release and allow these desires to come out in natural ways.  Due to the level of conditioning, there is still variation of how much security one has from continuing to suppress and judge oneself based on deeply ingrained conditioning factors.
I hope this is getting close to your question.  As for the maturing piece, the suppression is linked with the controlling of emotions, of course.
 So, when one is taught, or conditioned, to perform/act/carry out responsibility in a certain way(s), as you said "the downside in this distorted expression is that the person actually never gets to mature and never gets to really come to know her/himself."  That sounds right on.  There is not a place for the emotions to be expressed carrying out roles and responsibilities in this distorted conditioning.  And consensus reality is defining this behavior as what brings security.  If allowing the true emotions to come out, one would be potentially, for example, lose their job.  It is the 'catch 22' of 'playing the game'.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 29, 2010, 01:58 PM
Hi Bradley,

Thank you.  I'm just thinking out loud here.  The word "obey" caught my attention.  Thinking about what Tamara also wrote about Frodo, obedience seems like an essential part of the Capricorn archetype.  The question is what is Cap obeying and why and that would seem to be dictated in part by the emotional maturity of the individual and in part by the consensus norms of the culture.  So, one could say that true, or natural, security is obedience to one's inner guidance system, but distorted security would express as obedience to outward norms and expectations.   I'm just thinking that obedience tends to be seen as a negative in our (American) culture.  But really, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with obedience, just what you're choosing (or able) to be obedient to...

Thanks for stimulating my thoughts on this.

Peace,
Ellen  


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Dhyana on Dec 29, 2010, 09:52 PM
I thought I would provide the link to an article that Lia wrote a while back, reflecting on the Capricorn Archetype. I remember this was one of the first things I read as I searched the web for evolutionary astrology -- it really had/has such depth.

Thanks again Lia!  --Who knows how many other people searched the web and read such a depthful article about Capricorn.

http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/thoughts-about-capricorn


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on Dec 30, 2010, 10:44 PM
Hi Bradley and everyone,

This topic is moving along so well.  The insights I have gained from all of your posts has been just amazing (since I have 3 personal planets in Capricorn 3rd, with my Moon in Cancer 9th).

It was especially important to learn about the emotional suppression of the Capricorn archetype.  Do we understand why this distortion happened during the formation of the patriarchy?

I would love to learn more about the "natural" feminine archetype of Capricorn/Saturn, and how Mother Earth sustains us within her structures.  A baby gains a feeling of security when held securely by the mother.  

Australia, where I live, has its Sun and Saturn (presently impacted by T-Pluto) in Capricorn, and emotional expression is still so completely frowned upon.  It's a very "dry" country indeed.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Dec 31, 2010, 07:49 AM
Hi All,

I read the article link posted by Dhyana and liked it very much, though I still believe Capricorn is a feminine archetype, even in the ancient past. 

All the astro signs and their polarities (Aries-Libra, Taurus-Scorpio, Gemini-Sag, Cancer-Cap, Leo-Aquarius, Virgo-Pisces) are paired in masculine-feminine groupings.  So why would Cancer-Cap be any different?

I still wonder about my original question "why are the ruling planets of Capricorn (and Virgo), both intrinsically feminine archetypes, ruled by 'masculine' planets?  I feel the patriarchy influenced the archetypes (especially earth and water) into suppression, as well as the planets.  This is a feeling I have.

Happy New Year,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 31, 2010, 08:22 AM
Hi Bradley and everyone,

This topic is moving along so well.  The insights I have gained from all of your posts has been just amazing (since I have 3 personal planets in Capricorn 3rd, with my Moon in Cancer 9th).

It was especially important to learn about the emotional suppression of the Capricorn archetype.  Do we understand why this distortion happened during the formation of the patriarchy?
Hi Linda,
Really interesting question.  My first thought has to do with the necessity that comes from a martial-type of community (I have Mars/Cap conjunct SN and square Jupiter/Aries.  I also have Sun and Merc in Cap squaring Jup/Aries).  But I think also patriarchy is about superiority - competition - the need to be better than someone else.  That type of emphasis doesn't lend itself to introspection and being in touch with one's emotions.  It's not about caring about others (which would necessitate being in touch with oneself).  It is about defeating other people.  All that requires is force.  I think James DeMeo's book, Saharasia gives an interesting look at the psychological impact of patriarchy and how that was transferred from one generation to the next resulting in a huge cultural shift. He relies heavily on the work of the late psychologist Wilhelm Reich (I think that's his right first name...?).  Anyway, that's my thinking on it.  I'm curious about others' perspectives.

Peace,
Ellen


I would love to learn more about the "natural" feminine archetype of Capricorn/Saturn, and how Mother Earth sustains us within her structures.  A baby gains a feeling of security when held securely by the mother.  

Australia, where I live, has its Sun and Saturn (presently impacted by T-Pluto) in Capricorn, and emotional expression is still so completely frowned upon.  It's a very "dry" country indeed.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Dec 31, 2010, 08:36 AM
Hi Linda,

One more thing I'm remembering from DeMeo.  He traces the formation of the patriarchy back to the initial formation of deserts on the planet.  I do not know if his thesis is in keeping with EA (and by all means, those in the know, let me know!) but I thought his work was insightful.  Anyway, for him, patriarchy formed as a result of the psychological shift that took place in the human psyche as a result of prolonged exposure to scarcity and thus a necessary cultural orientation towards survival.  This led to practices that further skewed the human psyche and these practices were then passed down, generation to generation.  Also, survival needs led communities to become aggressive towards others.  Because force won out, these cultural practices were also spread to other communities.  So it seems to me that part of an answer to your question also stems from the realities of trauma to the human psyche, both from scarcity and from aggression/force/violence.  This is interesting to me because now we are entering the age of Aquarius and we do seem to be confronting the realities of the traumas that we have endured, hopefully so that they can be healed!

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Dec 31, 2010, 01:10 PM
Hi All,

Thanks for this link to Lia's writing, Dhyana.  I still need to wait for time to go back and read this.

Wendy, thanks for bringing back this question, I believe we will be getting into this more.  I hear you.  I am sure we'd agree that the patriarchal defining reality is similarly reflected in a masculine 'Neptune' for the very yin mutable water pisces.  We know prior to this, other archetypal deities/stories/myths were related which reflected the pure yin essence.  Why masculine planets, in my opinion, is that it is simply reflection of the patriarchal era which still reigns.  Where the Cronos/Saturn myth reflects the story of the patriarchal take over/domination.  Do you agree this is why?  Would the undistorted archetype be eating their children?

Ellen and Linda, thanks for your continued posts, insights, and questions.  I believe I'll be having more time to participate here this weekend.

Blessings,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: ari moshe on Dec 31, 2010, 03:10 PM
Quote
Where Cap goes wrong (in this patriarchal world only?) is in thinking that time and space (outer) is all there is, and thus it gets stuck, believing that "what is" is all there is, rather than understanding that "what is" is simply a moment in time - a platform (structure) from which to take the next step.  It is what we have created, but not necessarily what must come next.  The Emotional Journey - our connection to our inner emotional truth - is where possibility lies.  The mistake that Cap makes is in thinking that the form is reality.  The center of bones is not hard but soft and fluid-like.  Perhaps it could be said that what in fact what makes up form/structure is the emotional center....?

I really appreciate this insight Ellen!

I've been reflecting, in my own life, about the need to take responsibility for my actions. For example, following a diet routine or practice of any kind on behalf of reaching a particular goal alone seems to be the shadow Ellen was pointing towards. I'm sitting with the wisdom of Capricorn to embrace structure and make long term choices in a way that allows a strengthening to occur over time, as opposed to perpetual repression.

How does Capricorn develop the maturity to get its act together in the right way? I feel time and life experience are probably the essence of the answer. However I feel I really don't know. Here are some thoughts that I've been thinking about re: phasal relationships to Capricorn:

The natural new phase semi-sextile between Sag and Capricorn correlates to the need for a soul to "un randomize" the ideas discovered in sag by focusing them in a new concrete form. From sag to Capricorn, this is a completely new and undeveloped skill. It's necessary to constrict based on the learned realization that expansiveness alone will not cut it.

However from Scorpio to Capricorn we are looking at the crescent phase semi sextile which correlates to an awareness of what is necessary based on psychological self knowledge, and thus the capacity to make constructive choices based on that knowledge.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 01, 2011, 01:08 AM
Ari Moshe, thanks for this post, appreciate the tie in to natural zodiac connections.

Wendy, well after reading Lia's article and rethinking my last post, specifically:
Where the Cronos/Saturn myth reflects the story of the patriarchal take over/domination.  Do you agree this is why?  Would the undistorted archetype be eating their children?
in light of Lia's writting: "Today it is obvious to me that the symbolism with the yearly renewal cycle actually comes from the old forgotten mother culture, i.e. symbolically sacrificing/recycling the beloved son/lover of the Goddess for the new life to spring out of the old, is what is hidden in the Capricorn symbolism."
Now, I am honestly not sure what to think...maybe this is part of the archetype??  In comparison, the patriarchal example is more violent and the older example has the symbolic spiritual ritual piece about it.
Nonetheless, a common thread.

Well, I keep going back to what is 'natural' about dominance and being dominated.  I do believe this has relevance to questions and dialogue thus far because we face the past and present pain and wounding of great distortions of domination.  
When I think of chickens who have a natural pecking order, this appears to be a natural dominance and social structuring.  These dynamics occur naturally in so many ways.  
Another thought is the hunting of prey by predator.  As humans, we have ancient memories of being both the prey and the predator - directly tied to survival situations.  The quintessential Capricorn traits are all necessary in these types of situations: emotional maturity and control over emotions - part of this being emotion of fear due to threatened loss of security, wisdom of the elders - how to handle the situation, focus, concentration, self discipline, a sense of one's own authority, etc.  

As an example of establishing one's own authority, we can consider the results of a lack of this - natural square to aries/1st - if not the courage needed then acting cowardly - to cower - shrinking back out of fear.  If we bring this into human-animal contacts, we see there is security in establishing one's authority and having control.  I often wonder about animal 'training' - I mean, is there not a sense of having to be in control.  If there is inconsistency in maintaining routine boundaries, then the caretaker can become perceived as 'wishy-washy' or easy to take advantage of.  Here is part of the Capricorn archetype of timing and consistency.  If you are inconsistent or lack the self discipline and/or authority to maintain clear consistent expectations, boundaries, and routines, then the animal can both 'misbehave' as well as have a natural lack of security(polarity).
Recently, the horses were out roaming the land.  I wanted to help, but did not know what to do.  I was told to stand 'here' and simply raise up my hands if one of the horses came toward me.  Fascinating that an animal of so much more power would just turn the other way if I raised my hands.  
With raising children, the capricorn/10th/saturn elements are essential if the children are to grow up and mature.  The natural square to aries, the freedom of acting to discover on one's own stresses the parents in keeping boundaries, routines, and completing responsibilities.  If we allow our children to experience life firsthand(aries) all the time, they would be wounded or possibly die.  In the present, we have these wierd things called roads where the danger of metal boxes traveling at great speeds suddenly zoom by.  In the olden days, we have the need, at times, to be silent in the woods for example.  Or, to not run too far ahead on the path.  The child just wants the freedom to run ahead and discover for theirself(aries), while the authority of the parent/caretaker is challenged because they have lived long enough to have the experience to learn of danger.  Capricorn/saturn/10th keeps us secure(polarity) from danger(square to aries and libra) by learned cautiousness, boundaries, etc.  
Back to the domination part, if we appear weak, we are more likely to become prey.  It is like street smarts, a poker face - a way of coming across as having authority over one's own life - all these things bringing and allowing growth of an inner sense of emotional security.

Some humans do get a lot of security out of order, similar, in a sense, to creating a predictable consistent environment for animals.  And some feel trapped and desire to rebel and/or escape(natural next steps - aquarius & pisces).  However, if we take the bigger picture, the fact that the day is 24 hours long and the sun rises on time, the moon keeps its speed and only shows us one face, the sun and moon appear the same size - these phenomena are reflected in the psychological structure of human consciousness AND bring security because the structure of time, predictable as it is on earth right now, allows for patterning, organization, and wisdom thru observing life within these constants.  Our whole reality is held within this framework of time, as experienced on earth.  Imagine the insecurities which would arise if the the earth slowed it's spinning on it's axis, the moon started moving farther away, or the sun grew in size much more rapidly.  All of this is shifting/changing/transforming time as we experience it now - aquarius/uranus - fear of the unknown.
 


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on Jan 01, 2011, 04:19 AM
Hi Ellen and everyone,

Further to your thoughts on the origins of the patriarchy, here are some extracts from Claudia von Werlhof's thesis, "Patriarchy as Negation of Matriarchy - the Perspective of a Delusion."  http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/werlhof.html

According to my thesis and seen from a matriarchal viewpoint, patriarchy is neither in itself nor of its own an order of society, culture, or civilization. It is not independent of matriarchal forms of society but has developed out of the negation of matriarchy. Seen as such, patriarchy has to be called a delusion.

I am pleading for understanding our social order as basically a global patriarchy which has evolved over a period of 5 to 7000 years, with global capitalism as its, so far, last and "highest" form of expression which marks the limits of its development.    

Patriarchy has a beginning and it will, therefore, eventually have an end. Seen from an evolutionary perspective, it is not "necessary" and it should, therefore, not be overrated. In other words: Societies organized according to "non-patriarchal" principles must, simply for logical reasons, have existed. Therefore, they can and possibly will, for the same logical reasons, develop again.

For very long periods of human history there globally existed a many-faceted matriarchal world culture, and patriarchy is, in its different forms of appearance, simply an evolutionary error of very recent origin, although an extremely dangerous and violent one.

Indigenous matriarchal cultures in North America know, for instance, two basic rules according to which they orient their lives: All life comes from women. Life must not be endangered.  Matriarchal societies all over the world and at all times would probably stick to these two basic rules.

According to the relevant literature, social relations probably lost their matriarchal character in a situation of need, danger, or emergency that might have occurred on account of climatic changes that were followed by "catastrophic" migrations in the course of which matriarchal social relations were injured and spoilt and finally destroyed (J. de Meo).

"Oriental despotism" determined the rise and development of patriarchies in antiquity and thus also the rise and development of Western patriarchy which was later established by means of Roman colonization and of violent waves of Christianization starting from Rome.

The tremendous use of violence, right from the beginning, characterizes patriarchal systems of domination.  As far as we know today, patriarchy always and everywhere begins with war.

With war as "the father of all things" instead of life as "the mother of all things", creation and wealth appear to come from willful destruction instead of from the cooperation of all things alive.

The delusion of patriarchy will, like a phantom, disappear from the surface of the earth ...


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 01, 2011, 06:20 AM
Wow, Linda.  Thanks!  The following statement struck a particular chord with me:

"With war as "the father of all things" instead of life as "the mother of all things", creation and wealth appear to come from willful destruction instead of from the cooperation of all things alive."

What a choice!  And that makes me wonder, given that Cap is time/space, wouldn't choice be a natural part of the archetype?  So the question is, what are we going to choose?  Emotional suppression (and thus emotional immaturity and the perpetuation of violence) or emotional wisening (and thus emotional maturation and the chance for peace).  Is Capricorn also about apprenticeship (master/apprentice type relationships)????????  So with whom or what do we choose to align with in terms of our apprenticeship here on earth?  Knowing what we know, and with all the amazing examples that we have, we DO have a choice in how we respond, even in the midst of scarcity and violence... Maybe we can't change how anyone else responds, but that doesn't mean we can't choose consciously for ourselves. 

Also, Cap is trine Taurus and sextile Scorpio.  This is an interesting connection to me as I have always struggled with money.  But money is just a tool and the easy aspects to these signs suggest we have a choice as to how to relate to money.  Money can be used to perpetuate violence or to foster cooperation.  The question is about manifestation (which comes originally from our values), not about money... This is a huge insight for me.  I've heard others talk about this, but I haven't been able to get it myself until now.  Perhaps this is taking things a step too far, but perhaps it could even be reasoned that mastering (Cap) money is a kind of obligation (Cap) given that money, at least for now, is what shapes our societies.  Not mastering money could be seen as a form of emotional immaturity or frozenness in time that arises from suppression/denial of the current reality or a resistance or rebellion (Aquarian reaction to Cap).  Some thoughts that are making a lot of sense to me, but not sure if they're correct... I mean, you could argue that the origins of money were grounded in the desire for domination and control, and thus that money should be resisted because it is intrinsically problematic.  I think that's what I've always thought unconsciously.  But really, money is just a thing.  It is our conscious attitude towards it - our intention with it - that perhaps, after all, is the determining factor.  Cap is earth.  Doesn't like change.  At some point, the introduction of money would have been a change.  Also, this last connection: emotional suppression (Cap)--> self-loathing (Scorpio?)-->devaluing of self (with money as a projected symbol)  (Taurus).  But it could go: emotional wisening (Cap)-->valuing of self (Taurus)-->merging with the symbol of money (Scorpio) as a means of manifesting one's values (Taurus).  Pisces (sextile Cap, trine Scorpio, sextile Taurus) could also be drawn in - allowing money to flow through oneself as a means of manifesting the divine or love or higher expression of some sort.  Maybe this is just all really corrupted thought on my part, but, as I said, I have always struggled with money, and this is making sense to me at this time.

Love,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 01, 2011, 12:58 PM
Quote
Where Cap goes wrong (in this patriarchal world only?) is in thinking that time and space (outer) is all there is, and thus it gets stuck, believing that "what is" is all there is, rather than understanding that "what is" is simply a moment in time - a platform (structure) from which to take the next step.  It is what we have created, but not necessarily what must come next.  The Emotional Journey - our connection to our inner emotional truth - is where possibility lies.  The mistake that Cap makes is in thinking that the form is reality.  The center of bones is not hard but soft and fluid-like.  Perhaps it could be said that what in fact what makes up form/structure is the emotional center....?

I really appreciate this insight Ellen!

I've been reflecting, in my own life, about the need to take responsibility for my actions. For example, following a diet routine or practice of any kind on behalf of reaching a particular goal alone seems to be the shadow Ellen was pointing towards. I'm sitting with the wisdom of Capricorn to embrace structure and make long term choices in a way that allows a strengthening to occur over time, as opposed to perpetual repression.

How does Capricorn develop the maturity to get its act together in the right way? I feel time and life experience are probably the essence of the answer. However I feel I really don't know. Here are some thoughts that I've been thinking about re: phasal relationships to Capricorn:

The natural new phase semi-sextile between Sag and Capricorn correlates to the need for a soul to "un randomize" the ideas discovered in sag by focusing them in a new concrete form. From sag to Capricorn, this is a completely new and undeveloped skill. It's necessary to constrict based on the learned realization that expansiveness alone will not cut it.

However from Scorpio to Capricorn we are looking at the crescent phase semi sextile which correlates to an awareness of what is necessary based on psychological self knowledge, and thus the capacity to make constructive choices based on that knowledge.
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

With regard to your question about how Cap develops maturity, I think you're right about it being a matter of life experience.  But I wonder, with regard to this question of maturation, if it would help to think of the phasal relationships in the reverse of what you've suggested..?  So you start with Cap (rigid, closed off) and move to a crescent phase Aq (shock, trauma, breaking open).  This then leads to Pisces - surrender.  Then onto Aries, 1st quarter - active search for who I am. etc. Scorpio can then be seen as a deepening of psychological awareness that allows for transformation and sets the stage for release of old, stuck patterns. Sag is the search for new knowledge that sets the stage for the new structures of Cap.  From my own experiences with the Cap archetype heavily emphasized and a whole lot of repression/suppression to contend with, this scheme really resonates with the process I've actually experienced in my own life, so I thought I'd throw it out there as food for thought...

Happy New Year!

Ellen
Addition: And I think you could trace the distortion of Cap too using this scheme.  So Aq becomes rebellion for the sake of rebellion.  Then onto escape in Pisces.  Aries perhaps manifests as aggression... Scorpio expresses as vindictive - a kind of negative swan song.  Sag would be what?  The final vestiges of fundamentalism leading to collapse of structure?  Not sure about this... Again, food for thought...


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on Jan 01, 2011, 03:45 PM
Hi Ellen,

Capricorn is the alchemist who is able to turn lead into gold by working practically and effectively with absolute reality.  The qualities of Capricorn turned "inwards" achieve self-mastery.  Turned "outwards" achieve mastery in the physical material world.

Capricorn's vital role in the overall scheme of things - the organization and initiation of changes concerning what is substantially useful in this concrete life on earth - can be applied to any existing structure in a spirit of patriarchy OR matriarchy.

With patriarchal distortion (emotional suppression) came the negation of the feminine.  The "alchemical" project of working with reality - construction, production, building, structuring - became distorted, violent, divisive and annihilating.

An example is capitalism, characterized by direct material patriarchalization, at the expense of reciprocity, sharing, caring, inclusion, nature, etc.

In terms of the Capricorn/Cancer t-square to Libra:

"The social order of matriarchies is based on highly intelligent principles that have been cultivated over thousands of years of human experience.  One of these is the perfect balance between the sphere of action of women and the sphere of action of men.  This balance is continuously created by bringing about the consensus or unanimity of all members of society.  Following this principle, suppression of one gender by the other is not possible.  Furthermore, this is a non-violent social order, without the exploitation of humans, animals and nature, in which all living creatures are respected.  In this sense they are truly SOCIETIES IN BALANCE."  [2nd World Congress on Matriarchal Studies]


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 01, 2011, 04:26 PM
Thanks, Linda - I really appreciate your response.  I forgot about Capricorn as alchemist.  That makes perfect sense...

Peace, and Happy New Year!
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 02, 2011, 01:19 AM
Linda,
I appreciate your correlation between an alchemist and Capricorn.  This one has got me thinking.
What this makes me think of is how we often experience blocks to achieving our goals.  Hitting that brick wall creates potential response - one of which is the repeated effort and discipline - the keep trying; it builds focus and determination.  The refining of one's capabilities in this regard, to me, certainly links the alchemist and Capricorn.  Another piece about it is that the alchemist experiences the lessons in the process, not necessarily the end result being the only measure of success.
The actual metamorphosis of lead to gold, in my understanding would be a scorpio/8th/pluto phenomena.
I do think of Capricorn to have hidden pearls of wisdom for us in what might first appear to be a 'oh crap' kind of response to a life situation.

Ellen,
thanks for continuing to share your insights and questions.
  Is Capricorn also about apprenticeship (master/apprentice type relationships)????????
Initially, I am feeling that this is Sag.  If there was a dynamic of domination in the learning and control by the 'teacher', then this would be Cap, but the actual learning relationship is a Sag/9th phenomena.
  Cap is earth.  Doesn't like change.
Here is what this brings up for me:  First, this brought me to ask why?  Why does Cap not like change?  Revisiting the Cap/10 section in Pluto I I came across this section which seems appropriate to keep in mind with the archetype:
"In addition, the Tenth House and Capricorn are the archetypes though which we all come face to face with our own mortality, and with time and space itself.  These archetypes produce the awareness that we have a certain time span in which to fulfill our destinies.  Consequently, Tenth House Pluto individuals feel this awareness more acutely than those who do not have Pluto in this house or sign.
    This awareness enforces lessons of social and emotional maturity; of timing in our lives, and that the structural organization of reality at whatever level or application changes or evolves over and through time.  The rise and fall of nations, seasonal change, and the evolving nature and structure of an individual's reality all reflect this fact.  This awareness, with the necessary reflection, allows for structural change.  This change will occur with respect to that which is outmoded or cystalized so that growth at any level of reality can occur.  If negatively expressed in an individual, this awareness produces a sense of futility an dpessimism:  "What's the point?".  Positively, it produces the motivations required to accomplish what the individual is here to do.
JWG

I thought it interesting the phrase "with necessary reflection, allows for structural change." 
I know that the conditioning of patriarchal reality does not honor the reflection process.  In fact, if one is too sad for too long, there is this "something is wrong" judgement.  Corporate America allows this tiny window of time for grieving; compared to other cultures it is complete repression of the emotions after a certain window of time. 
What I am getting is that the 'frozenness' of Cap is in direct link to the suppression.  If the reflection is naturally embraced, then change will come.  We can process, release, let go, move on, grow and mature from the experiences with the wisdom of the time keeper.  Taurus, yes does not like change. 

I pray these words are received with love, as I do not mean to be taken as judgement; just my own understanding of this archetype thus far.

With love,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 02, 2011, 08:44 AM

Ellen,
thanks for continuing to share your insights and questions.
  Is Capricorn also about apprenticeship (master/apprentice type relationships)????????
Initially, I am feeling that this is Sag.  If there was a dynamic of domination in the learning and control by the 'teacher', then this would be Cap, but the actual learning relationship is a Sag/9th phenomena.
  Cap is earth.  Doesn't like change.
Here is what this brings up for me:  First, this brought me to ask why?  Why does Cap not like change?  Revisiting the Cap/10 section in Pluto I I came across this section which seems appropriate to keep in mind with the archetype:
"In addition, the Tenth House and Capricorn are the archetypes though which we all come face to face with our own mortality, and with time and space itself.  These archetypes produce the awareness that we have a certain time span in which to fulfill our destinies.  Consequently, Tenth House Pluto individuals feel this awareness more acutely than those who do not have Pluto in this house or sign.
    This awareness enforces lessons of social and emotional maturity; of timing in our lives, and that the structural organization of reality at whatever level or application changes or evolves over and through time.  The rise and fall of nations, seasonal change, and the evolving nature and structure of an individual's reality all reflect this fact.  This awareness, with the necessary reflection, allows for structural change.  This change will occur with respect to that which is outmoded or cystalized so that growth at any level of reality can occur.  If negatively expressed in an individual, this awareness produces a sense of futility an dpessimism:  "What's the point?".  Positively, it produces the motivations required to accomplish what the individual is here to do.
JWG

I thought it interesting the phrase "with necessary reflection, allows for structural change." 
I know that the conditioning of patriarchal reality does not honor the reflection process.  In fact, if one is too sad for too long, there is this "something is wrong" judgement.  Corporate America allows this tiny window of time for grieving; compared to other cultures it is complete repression of the emotions after a certain window of time. 
What I am getting is that the 'frozenness' of Cap is in direct link to the suppression.  If the reflection is naturally embraced, then change will come.  We can process, release, let go, move on, grow and mature from the experiences with the wisdom of the time keeper.  Taurus, yes does not like change. 

I pray these words are received with love, as I do not mean to be taken as judgement; just my own understanding of this archetype thus far.

With love,
Bradley

Hi Bradley,

Thanks so much for your responses.  No judgement taken on my end; definitely received with the love that was intended.  I really appreciate your reflections on the frozenness of Capricorn and I think you are right on about the reasons for it.  I think with all emotions, but especially with regard to grief, our culture simply does not allow us to be with it and to process through it in its natural and necessary course.  And then, as you say, this then becomes frozen over time.

I also thought about Sag with regard to the master/apprentice relationship.  But I am thinking that that particular dynamic might be Cap, whereas the teacher/student relationship is more Sag.  It is still a question for me but it feels to me that there is a distinction.  Master/apprentice seems more of a "business" type of relationship - an "elder" teaching a craft of some sort to the novice.  I'm not sure domination necessarily has to be a part of it, but I agree that if domination were involved, that would be a clue.  But I also think that one person simply being more experienced than another and sharing that experience might be a sign.  I was also wondering about the guru/disciple connection.  Initially, I was thinking Sag.  But "discipline" is Cap (being a student of oneself and thus "controlling" oneself as a result of this knowledge), so I'm wondering...

Thanks for the dialogue and best wishes in the New Year,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 02, 2011, 08:57 PM
I appreciate two words that have been introduced here about Capricorn.

Alchemist-
Capricorn is the alchemist who is able to turn lead into gold by working practically and effectively with absolute reality.  The qualities of Capricorn turned "inwards" achieve self-mastery.  Turned "outwards" achieve mastery in the physical material world

Discipline-
"discipline" is Cap (being a student of oneself and thus "controlling" oneself as a result of this knowledge)

This also brings up where it is necessary to withhold the senses and remain inwardly focused on one's purpose, such as in meditation.

HOWEVER! From my own experience, there have been times during meditation whence the emotional reality is just too strong for me to "concentrate" on the meditation. At such times, I allow myself to gently back off and relax my mind, maybe swim in the emotions, practice some yogic breathing etc... for a time. I find that necessary in order to not create a repressive environment for myself.

Yogananda, a 10th house Pluto (+ Neptune, and a Capricorn Sun) emphasized the importance of spiritual practice in one's daily life and yet also emphasized prayer. He often would pray, full hearted prayer to Divine Mother. To me this is the bhakti, an emotional yearning, that is necessary within any structure.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: PatriciaW on Jan 02, 2011, 09:55 PM
Hi Ellen... just my 2 cents on the apprentice. I suppose it can be aligned to any archetype..but i find it most common (from the past life perspective) in Virgo. Hence the feeling of not being ready...always needing to prepare, learn more. If one is a perpetual apprentice...one never graduates ;-)

On the other hand Capricorn is a sign of graduation!!
Capricorn to me has the energy of a mentorship... The Father achetype (which has it's own sort of apprentice vibe) But the intention is different.. Virgo apprenticing is learning skills... mercury.. Capricorn as stated before here, is about mastery first of what one has learned ( from Mentors, Society etc..) and then eventual De-Conditioning of what one has taken in with all that learning ( the should and oughhts - very Capricorn) so that one can emerge a master of oneself (become your own authority).


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 03, 2011, 07:37 AM
Hi Ellen... just my 2 cents on the apprentice. I suppose it can be aligned to any archetype..but i find it most common (from the past life perspective) in Virgo. Hence the feeling of not being ready...always needing to prepare, learn more. If one is a perpetual apprentice...one never graduates ;-)

On the other hand Capricorn is a sign of graduation!!
Capricorn to me has the energy of a mentorship... The Father achetype (which has it's own sort of apprentice vibe) But the intention is different.. Virgo apprenticing is learning skills... mercury.. Capricorn as stated before here, is about mastery first of what one has learned ( from Mentors, Society etc..) and then eventual De-Conditioning of what one has taken in with all that learning ( the should and oughhts - very Capricorn) so that one can emerge a master of oneself (become your own authority).

Thank you, Patricia!  Makes perfect sense to me.

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 03, 2011, 07:48 AM
I appreciate two words that have been introduced here about Capricorn.


Discipline-
"discipline" is Cap (being a student of oneself and thus "controlling" oneself as a result of this knowledge)

This also brings up where it is necessary to withhold the senses and remain inwardly focused on one's purpose, such as in meditation.

HOWEVER! From my own experience, there have been times during meditation whence the emotional reality is just too strong for me to "concentrate" on the meditation. At such times, I allow myself to gently back off and relax my mind, maybe swim in the emotions, practice some yogic breathing etc... for a time. I find that necessary in order to not create a repressive environment for myself.

Yogananda, a 10th house Pluto (+ Neptune, and a Capricorn Sun) emphasized the importance of spiritual practice in one's daily life and yet also emphasized prayer. He often would pray, full hearted prayer to Divine Mother. To me this is the bhakti, an emotional yearning, that is necessary within any structure.
Ari Moshe

Hi Ari,

I just wanted to clarify.  My choice of the word "control" probably wasn't the best because it has the connotation of emotional suppression.  In my own personal experience, and how I relate to "discipline", it is not about keeping one's emotions under wraps.  In fact, just the opposite.  One has to go deeper into one's emotions, to really get to the bottom of them and understand them.  To me, this results in self-knowledge (discipline), and from there one can then go forward in life - fully present and alive, with increasing MASTERY (cap) - so maybe MASTERING is a better word than control.  In my own life I have had to NOT engage in traditional meditational practices.  I have honestly felt, whenever I take up the practice, that I am driving myself right into Alzheimer's.  For me THE thing that I have to do in this life - TONS of Capricorn and Cancer NN in the 10th house - is get in touch with my emotions.  Controlling them (using that word in the way we usually think of it), is the absolute WRONG thing for me to be doing in this lifetime - it PREVENTS me from succeeding as a disciple of myself - it PREVENTS mastery.  That has been my experience.....  I will just say that I think control, as we usually think of that word, maybe only has relevance in a patriarchal system of organization - for survival reasons that come about from that kind of system, control can become necessary.  But one look at the world around us, at least to me, suggests that maybe the consequences of that are not so great.  Hope this makes sense.  Again, it is my own take based on my own experience.  

Best wishes always,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 03, 2011, 07:55 AM
Hi Ari,

One more thought about it.  The very basic example I can think of is learning, as a young child, to control one's bowels.  It is a natural process that occurs naturally in its own time with a little help from one's elders.  But if it is "controlled" - as has been prevalent in our culture - there are emotional ramifications.  Discipline, to me, is a matter of being present with where one is, and then from there doing what needs to be done to ensure mastery of whatever is there, asking for mastery.  It is not about forcing or suppressing..
Hope this makes sense.

Love,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 03, 2011, 09:33 AM
Hi Bradley and All,

I really appreciate your insights here, especially bringing up the Aries-Libra square component, thus the natural purpose for Capricorn.  I'm learning a great deal.  Thank you.

I have added comments and asked questions--inserted between the quote(s) below.   

Well, I keep going back to what is 'natural' about dominance and being dominated.  I do believe this has relevance to questions and dialogue thus far because we face the past and present pain and wounding of great distortions of domination.
 

Interesting!  I have Saturn in the 10th opposing numerous outer planets w/personal planets (past memories and early life), and thus associated Saturn with feeling dominated by an outer authority most of my life, until I learned how to become the author(ity) of my own life.  What is 'natural' about dominance?  very much what you expressed about parents rearing children with healthy boundaries, set in place to manage the natural curiosity of a youngster and provide a sense of containment and balance in relation to others (Aries-Libra). 

Survival is a whole other component--in the animal world

Quote from: Bradley
When I think of chickens who have a natural pecking order, this appears to be a natural dominance and social structuring.  These dynamics occur naturally in so many ways.  
Another thought is the hunting of prey by predator.  As humans, we have ancient memories of being both the prey and the predator - directly tied to survival situations.  The quintessential Capricorn traits are all necessary in these types of situations: emotional maturity and control over emotions - part of this being emotion of fear due to threatened loss of security, wisdom of the elders - how to handle the situation, focus, concentration, self discipline, a sense of one's own authority, etc.  

As an example of establishing one's own authority, we can consider the results of a lack of this - natural square to aries/1st - if not the courage needed then acting cowardly - to cower - shrinking back out of fear.


This a great example of a repressed Saturn/Capricorn function!

Quote from: Bradley
If we bring this into human-animal contacts, we see there is security in establishing one's authority and having control.  I often wonder about animal 'training' - I mean, is there not a sense of having to be in control.

I work with animal's professionally and see many animal 'owners' trying to establish authority and control over an animal via domination.  This truly doesn't work.  The animal ultimately doesn't trust them and in fact resents being dominated.  Yes, there needs to be a 'top dog', but in my experience/opinion when animals are communicated with via the heart, and their emotions and feelings are honored, a healthy bond establishes and boundaries are born naturally out of that conscious relationship, rather than unconscious actions stemming from domination.  Of course, the normal need to set up protection (cancer), i.e., a puppy around the stairs, etc is part of this, but again this more of the Cancer component than the Capricorn (i think/feel).  There are many effective ways of working with animals that have both natural and unnatural components.  And there are some cases where an animal is so dysfunctional due to patriarchal conditioning that more assertive measures are called for.  A healthy Saturn-Capricorn wants to provide structures and framework for those they care for, to provide paternal safety.

Quote from: Bradley
If there is inconsistency in maintaining routine boundaries, then the caretaker can become perceived as 'wishy-washy' or easy to take advantage of.  Here is part of the Capricorn archetype of timing and consistency.  If you are inconsistent or lack the self discipline and/or authority to maintain clear consistent expectations, boundaries, and routines, then the animal can both 'misbehave' as well as have a natural lack of security (polarity).

So true!

Quote from: Bradley
Back to the domination part, if we appear weak, we are more likely to become prey.  It is like street smarts, a poker face - a way of coming across as having authority over one's own life - all these things bringing and allowing growth of an inner sense of emotional security.

Grounded in the body, with earth domain activities brings emotional security?
 
Quote from: Bradley
Imagine the insecurities which would arise if the the earth slowed it's spinning on it's axis, the moon started moving farther away, or the sun grew in size much more rapidly.  All of this is shifting/changing/transforming time as we experience it now - aquarius/uranus - fear of the unknown.

Yes, this is a great point.

Blessings, Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: ari moshe on Jan 03, 2011, 11:50 AM
Thank you Ellen for your thoughts about control

Quote
One more thought about it.  The very basic example I can think of is learning, as a young child, to control one's bowels.  It is a natural process that occurs naturally in its own time with a little help from one's elders.  But if it is "controlled" - as has been prevalent in our culture - there are emotional ramifications.  Discipline, to me, is a matter of being present with where one is, and then from there doing what needs to be done to ensure mastery of whatever is there, asking for mastery.  It is not about forcing or suppressing..

Its good to hear this stuff from someone who is fall of Capricorn like yourself!

Patricia, your statement was very clarifying for me:
Quote
Capricorn as stated before here, is about mastery first of what one has learned ( from Mentors, Society etc..) and then eventual De-Conditioning of what one has taken in with all that learning ( the should and oughhts - very Capricorn) so that one can emerge a master of oneself (become your own authority).
I never thought of that before. I suppose this is where the traditional co-rulership of Uranus comes into play?

It's necessary to de-condition from what has been learned, otherwise it is a defacto repressive situation. It must become personal to us, otherwise we are trying to fit a social mold that is not our own.

In Yogananda's story, he followed a traditional path, and yet made it his own in the way that was appropriate to him. At some point he was without his guru in physical form, and was left to follow his own inner guidance. Same thing for Luke Skywalker...

This de-conditioning is still a very Capricornian experience, not Aquarian. Deconditioning via Aquarius is a complete break from the known. Whereas Capricorn deconditioning is turning inward (away from the external world of rules and laws, including the judgments, expectations and comparisons) in order to find personal meaning/emotional understanding of our social role.
Ari Moshe


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Lucius on Jan 03, 2011, 10:03 PM
It seems many descriptions of Capricorn are words that are hard to divorce from the reality of Patriarchy - which is why it's so important, I think, to really delve into them - as Ellen talked about 'mastery' and 'control'.

Domination is a term fraught with violence or implied violence - I don't think that naturally that is necessarily how it would be expressed.  Certainly animals do associate what we would call 'dominance' with the threat of aggression - my cat, for instance, is 'king cat' around here, why?  Because he's big & strong ( a norwegian forest cat) - however he doesn't abuse the other cats, etc.  It's just the way things are.  With other animals a fight for the right to procreate is serious business - the more 'dominant' is the winner and wins the girl, so to speak. 

With humans it seems the word is, as usual, totally screwed up in reality.  For instance, Black Elk was certainly a man who was recognized as a great holy man, who could mediate for others - he was 'dominate' in his 'field' (to use another patriarchal association) - however, in natural society his natural abilities in no way meant that any other person was less of a spiritual being or less a natural reflection of 'wakan tanka', etc. Which we can contrast with the catholic tradition - they are better than you and your route to 'god' and 'heaven' (they being the priests, bishops, pope, etc). 

 Or a warrior - a strong, focussed warrior would be 'dominant' over others who were not strong, focussed, fearless - but, these others would not be 'hazed' or beaten - they would be protected - and the right for that natural protection wouldn't be questioned (ie, in patriarchy the so-called 'weak' deserve to suffer or even die).

I think 'domination' is simply a word too fraught with patriarchal associations to be helpful - I'm assuming a word that correlates with this meaning exists in natural societies - in may not, it is helpful to see what words do not exist - for instance, I don't think the Lakota have/had a word for 'profane' - it's simply an incomprehensible idea, that anything would NOT be inherently and naturally sacred.

I am reminded of the words I quoted earlier in this post - about 'capability & ability' in substitution to the word 'dominance' -....anyway.... :)


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 03, 2011, 10:55 PM
It seems many descriptions of Capricorn are words that are hard to divorce from the reality of Patriarchy - which is why it's so important, I think, to really delve into them - as Ellen talked about 'mastery' and 'control'.

Domination is a term fraught with violence or implied violence - I don't think that naturally that is necessarily how it would be expressed.  Certainly animals do associate what we would call 'dominance' with the threat of aggression - my cat, for instance, is 'king cat' around here, why?  Because he's big & strong ( a norwegian forest cat) - however he doesn't abuse the other cats, etc.  It's just the way things are.  With other animals a fight for the right to procreate is serious business - the more 'dominant' is the winner and wins the girl, so to speak. 

With humans it seems the word is, as usual, totally screwed up in reality.  For instance, Black Elk was certainly a man who was recognized as a great holy man, who could mediate for others - he was 'dominate' in his 'field' (to use another patriarchal association) - however, in natural society his natural abilities in no way meant that any other person was less of a spiritual being or less a natural reflection of 'wakan tanka', etc. Which we can contrast with the catholic tradition - they are better than you and your route to 'god' and 'heaven' (they being the priests, bishops, pope, etc). 

 Or a warrior - a strong, focussed warrior would be 'dominant' over others who were not strong, focussed, fearless - but, these others would not be 'hazed' or beaten - they would be protected - and the right for that natural protection wouldn't be questioned (ie, in patriarchy the so-called 'weak' deserve to suffer or even die).

I think 'domination' is simply a word too fraught with patriarchal associations to be helpful - I'm assuming a word that correlates with this meaning exists in natural societies - in may not, it is helpful to see what words do not exist - for instance, I don't think the Lakota have/had a word for 'profane' - it's simply an incomprehensible idea, that anything would NOT be inherently and naturally sacred.

-....anyI am reminded of the words I quoted earlier in this post - about 'capability & ability' in substitution to the word 'dominance' way.... :)

Thank you, Lucius - for all of what you've written, but especially what I highlighted.

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 03, 2011, 11:04 PM
  What is 'natural' about dominance?  very much what you expressed about parents rearing children with healthy boundaries, set in place to manage the natural curiosity of a youngster and provide a sense of containment and balance in relation to others (Aries-Libra). 

 A healthy Saturn-Capricorn wants to provide structures and framework for those they care for, to provide paternal safety.



Wendy and Bradley,

Thank you for the above.  These really ring true for me.

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 04, 2011, 02:24 AM
Hi All,
I'll have a chance to come and catch up reading all the posts tomorrow eve.
Goddess Bless,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 05, 2011, 01:10 AM
Thank you Ellen, Ari Moshe, Patricia, Wendy, & Lucius for all that you have shared.
Very much appreciate your sharing, insights and perspectives! :)
Wendy, did I miss a question you were hoping for a response to?  couldn't tell
 
Perhaps it would be a good time to use a chart example?
Below is a Pluto 10th house chart of a seven year old boy.
I thought this would be relevant because we have dialogued about 'control' and the Capricorn Archetype.
This is a boy who is quite unique and gifted in many ways.  Specific to our topic here, there are two patterns which were noticeable from an early age. 
First, there is a hypersensitivity to being told he has done something wrong; can sense coming from within another person even the slightest potential of being judged and told he has 'done something wrong'

Second, the parents have again and again seen him unable to go to the bathroom, specifically "number 2" until they come back home.  Or, if people are visiting for example, he may have to go really bad, but still be unable to go til much later.  At times, the holding in of the poop leads to him not eating and getting into a space of being cranky,moody, and/or lacking ability to relax at all.  This has made for many a stressful outings. 
So, in the spirit of EA and continuing with deepening our knowledge of Capricorn/10th/Saturn, WHY?
WHY, based on this chart, can we see that this would be occurring?

For a bit more background, he has very supportive loving parents, no strong conditioning, parents are late individuated, as I believe he is. 

(http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy251/naragon-wildmail/Charts/astro_2gw_77_zackery_ho241034031.jpg)


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 05, 2011, 09:57 AM
Hi Bradley,

SN Dispositor, Pluto, in the 10th in opposition to Venus (the body) conjunct Saturn-Mercury, 5th--the child's inner reality and thinking is based in extreme self-criticism, internalization of, which leads to the need to control his bodily functions (Venus-Pluto) to maintain composure in the face of any outer circumstance/authority.  With Venus-Saturn-Mercury in the 5th, Gemini-Cancer, he only feels trusting of his parents, and his controlled-comfortable environment. 

To give more specific about Pluto in the 10th, I'll have to read the Pluto book first.

God'dess Bless,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 07, 2011, 01:04 PM
Wendy,
Appreciate the insights.
Your answer, thus far, seems right on as far as my own understanding of it goes.  I honestly was not having a strong understanding of the why he holds his poop and pee so much.

One thing that did jump out to me, right away, regarding the sensitivity to "doing something wrong" is having Pluto Sag 10th, sn scorpio 9th which, of course, puts pluto as ruler of sn, hence adding more emphasis to the meaning of Pluto sag 10th. 
In light of our past being distortions of natural judgement due to patriarchal religions, the symbols reinforce the potential of 'religious(sag) conditioning(10th)'. 
A couple other themes in the chart, we have Jupiter waning trine to Pluto in leo/7th.  If we use the idea of Pluto 10th as "establishing one's personal authority", relative to the sag and 9th, this would have been done in the context of this soul submersion into some form of 'religion' or teachings.  The trine to Jupiter suggests that he had formed relations with various others whom were very full of their own version of 'the truth'.  The exposure thru these relationships would have infused purpose into his goals. 
Then, back to the sn scorpio 9th, it is clear there would have been some intense confrontations surrounding differences in beliefs and vision relative to goals he had been working toward. 
Based on the concept of judgement and conditioning of the Cap/10th, it is clear that there was intense judgement upon him as a result of his nonconformity. 

Because of his emotional response to any sense of wrong doing as a child, it is clear there is past life trauma around the intense experiences of projected judgement from so called 'authorities'.  He had 'done something terribly wrong' or been under heavy moral conditioning in a very strict/restrictive disciplinary fashion.
The square to the nodes of mars uranus conjunction in the first, + the individuated stage of the soul, represent the rebellion against the voice of authority by jumping ahead to nn and questioning all that had been taught relative to how it was shaping his own life purpose.(nn ruler venus gemini 5th) 
Also, Chiron is waning inconjunct the Jupiter, hence both tied to Pluto.  Chiron is Cap 12th, reinforces that when questioning his teachers and the confronting(waning inconjunct) of the relative truth verses his own sense of the ultimate truth,  there are deep wounds around the judgement; others have imposed their beliefs(sag) about how life 'should'(cap) be lived(sag/9th). 
It even brings up the possibility of rebelling around 'brainwashing' of sorts.

This is just what comes to me, please feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting or simply adding other insights.

b


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 08, 2011, 07:16 PM
Hi Bradley,

Sorry I haven't been able to look at this until now.  My life has been a little chaotic of late and I may be starting a new job in the next week or 2 (maybe.......), so may not have much time at all coming up pretty soon.......

To add to what you and Wendy wrote, I've been wondering why, specifically, his bowels.  To me it is clear from the chart that he has experienced quite a bit of trauma in the past.  I think that Chiron would be considered to be in a waxing semi-sextile to Pluto, so the wounds are not that old in terms of past life experience.  Mars is also in a waxing phase to Pluto, so this Soul is still in the relative beginning phases of its journey through this cycle.  Mars/Uranus says trauma associated with desires and search for "who am I?"  Everything that you and Wendy wrote makes perfect sense to me.  In the Rulership book, Mercury/Virgo/6th=bowels.  Mercury is conjunct Saturn, so that could certainly indicate stoppage of bowels.  Saturn is the natural ruler of the 10th so there is a connection there.  Also, Virgo rules the 8th, so there is a connection there with regard to the Soul.  So to me, past life trauma as indicated by Uranus square nodes and which seems to be about judgment based on beliefs (Mars involvement= possible violence) is expressing itself in this particular way.  Mercury/Saturn are in the 5th so creative life purpose is also a factor.  And the Sun is also in the 5th conjunct Mercury/Saturn.  The skipped step is the SN in Scorpio/9th, so the resolution looks to be around deeply delving into the beliefs he encounters, discovering his own truth (Jupiter waning trine Pluto), especially within the context of one-on-one relationships (7th house) - and certainly these could be parental (10th house).  Venus, natural ruler of 7th - what do I value?  This will lead the way to him understanding and defining for himself his own beliefs.  Venus itself opposed Pluto.  Venus in 5th, so again, learning about "me" seems key to me...

Best wishes,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 08, 2011, 09:45 PM
Hi Bradley and Ellen,

I also see, SN Scorpio rules elimination.  With Pluto in the 10th, every time he eliminates his feels extremely vulnerable to the judgments others have placed on him, possibly even death!

Bradley--I am amazed how you (and others on this forum) can get so much information, data, about a soul, and articulate it so well.  I have SN Sag, so I just know things, but putting it into words is more of a challenge for me.  I appreciate the specific correlations and associations--I'm always learning.

Goddess Bless,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jan 08, 2011, 10:23 PM
Hi Bradley and Ellen,

I also see, SN Scorpio rules elimination.  With Pluto in the 10th, every time he eliminates his feels extremely vulnerable to the judgments others have placed on him, possibly even death!


This makes more sense, Wendy - more what's actually happening.  Thanks. 

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 09, 2011, 09:01 AM
Hi All,

I am wondering if we can also look at another chart?  The birth time is unknown by this man.  Maybe after we read about his life we can surmise the placement of his Pluto, but it's a bit tricky as Pluto is on his NN.

Guy is a fifty year old male born in the US.  His mother's mother was of full-blood Cherokee descent.  Guy grew up playing (creating forts with the tables) in the bars where his parents drank--they were alcoholics.  He made it to the 11th grade without his parents or any teachers knowing he was unable to read or write. They didn't know he was dyslexic either.  Once his teacher discovered he could not read (just like his mother) he never went back to school to face it.  His parents clearly didn't spend time observing Guy's educational development, such as reading with him.  (Guy has NN Virgo with Mercury, Moon, Venus conjunct in a T-square with Uranus and Chiron, with Pluto squaring the Mercury, Moon, Venus conjunction)

There was no specific religion followed.  Guy eventually joined motorcycle gangs and took to drinking (SN Pisces) and went to jail for possession of drugs (nothing violent).

In 1985 Guy found Alcoholics Anonymous and got sober.  He began dealing with his reading challenges and received tutoring, but never went beyond the basics, and hasn't dealt with the dyslexia.

To care for himself, Guy learned the art of carpentry.  He has supported himself for many years this way, and can interpret enough to manage the basics of his life.  He has a Sun-Saturn square (he has had to do it alone, without help).  Upon his mother's death, his step-siblings took all of her native belongings, so Guy has no material possession connecting him to his mother or his heritage (he was closest to her in his life).

Guy is a gentle soul who hasn't taken true responsibility for his soul (meaning he is not free of the pain which leads him to question his life circumstances).  He doesn't understand why all this has happened and hasn't done the deeper inner child work and therapy work necessary to move out of it.  He did share with me the other day that he applied for unemployment and for the first time he checked the box for 'disabled', which means he is being honest with himself about his challenges and allowing others in, to possibly help him (he allows others to help him, but only as much as he is honest with himself he needs help with...the final pass of Chiron return and the last eclipse right on his Saturn in Capricorn is forcing the issue to come to the surface more).  

I asked if we can look at this chart because I am so curious why a soul would create the circumstances of not being able to read, and why Mars opposite Saturn--what is the past life issue that is creating such pain for him?  He did tell me, for most of his life he felt very confused.  

Here's the chart.  Let me know if I need to provide more information about his life.  
(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/th_guy.gif) (http://s683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/?action=view&current=guy.gif)

After posting this first chart, I see the Libra Sun in the 4th house, which I don't think reflects Guy's life.  Here's the chart that feels more like him with the SN in the 4th house.

(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/guy2.gif)

Added at 12:44PM--Also for Guy to communicate, articulate what he feels and thinks is very difficult.  His language skills are quite limited.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 09, 2011, 12:14 PM
Hi Wendy, Ellen, and All,

Yeah, this is great, thanks for posting another chart.

Thank you for adding the piece about the Scorpio and elimination.  This brings up 2 thoughts:
a.  I was of the understanding that Saturn/Cap/10th is also connected to elimination.  Are you able to be any more specific about the difference of these two?

b.  The notion of feeling extremely vulnerable when needing to eliminate, I starting having the thought of a past life trauma of public humiliation around this theme.  The moon is in the 6th waning inconjunct to Pluto and opposing the chiron 12th.  I'm not saying this is for sure true, but certainly seems to be in the realm of archetypal possibilities.  Perhaps even a loss of control in reaction to an intense confrontation(philosophical/'truth') which was witnessed by others.  This resulting in deeply embarrassed moment which became a hidden away memory.

In response to the chart you have just posted, if this were accurate for the Pluto and nodes:
a.  It is clear that the past evolutionary intentions of this soul were directly linked to evolving the conceptual, intuitive, right brain faculties - this with Pluto Virgo 9th, and nn ruler mercury is also in 12th. 
b.  If the north node and Pluto really are in separate houses, the effort he has put forth to success on his own (nn 10th) would directly reflect the service/helping others role within the career.  Now, carpentry, sure, I can see that - how much do you see this is him? 
c.  The cusp of the forth Pisces, its ruler Neptune Scorpio 12th does reflect the story of family alcoholism, no doubt.
d.  The mercury square to Uranus 9th - his capacity to plan work(carpentry example) would demonstrate his mental capability to see, in a brilliance of sorts, a bigger picture of how the projects unfold and a thinking outside the box in problem solving.
e.  Scorpio Rising?  do you think so?  In EA, this would be reflected with the instinctual desire to merge with something.  Now, in this chart, the mars cancer 8th emphasis of this impulse to dive deep, submerge within....what?  The moon(8th house ruler) brings us back to Scorpio 12th.  How much does he submerge himself is work?  What else, besides escaping the pain thru alcohol.
f.  Sounds like mid individuated, with the story of joining bike gang and generally living outside the normal mainstream culture. 
g.  Past of confusion...yes, the sn Pisces 4th w/ruler Neptune 12th, makes sense. With how deep the betrayal of needing to be his own nurturing security(sn Pisces 4th-parents checked out & mars cancer 8th on top of Scorpio AC), he must display both a sense of innocence and naivety about life, yet also have a huge guard up regarding whom he could trust. (past betrayals and violations of trust).  So, yes, this is reflected in his deep Resistance(fear) of receiving help(nurturing) from outside sources(mars cancer 8th), yet simultaneously desiring this.



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 09, 2011, 01:42 PM
Hi Wendy, Ellen, and All,

Yeah, this is great, thanks for posting another chart.

Thank you for adding the piece about the Scorpio and elimination.  This brings up 2 thoughts:
a.  I was of the understanding that Saturn/Cap/10th is also connected to elimination.  Are you able to be any more specific about the difference of these two?

From what I understand Virgo and Scorpio both rule digestion, with Scorpio directly related to eliminating what is not necessary for the body (and soul) via the colon, bladder.  The only way I would guess Capricorn is associated with elimination would be through acquiring the control necessary to manage the elimination process?  Saturn acts as the taskmaster and takes away that which is in excess, curbing the likes of Sagittarian excess.  


b.  The notion of feeling extremely vulnerable when needing to eliminate, I starting having the thought of a past life trauma of public humiliation around this theme.  The moon is in the 6th waning inconjunct to Pluto and opposing the chiron 12th.  I'm not saying this is for sure true, but certainly seems to be in the realm of archetypal possibilities.  Perhaps even a loss of control in reaction to an intense confrontation (philosophical/'truth') which was witnessed by others.  This resulting in deeply embarrassed moment which became a hidden away memory.

SN ruler in the 10th retrograde in opposition to NN ruler Venus conjunct Saturn.  There is definitely shame, humiliation, fear of being naturally expressive-abundant in the physical body.  Also, relationships are quite serious and consuming.  

In response to the chart you have just posted, if this were accurate for the Pluto and nodes:
I thought of Pluto in the 4th as well, but that makes him Gemini rising and I just don't see that, though I'm not at all positive he is Scorpio rising either.  Pluto in the fourth, Lucifer in Cancer in the 4th or SN in the fourth is the best I can come up with.  He surely has strong cardinal energy (Libra Sun, Saturn Cap, Mars Cancer), so I don't easily get the rising sign or wheel placement. Cancer rising has crossed my mind, but his body type doesn't fit.

a.  It is clear that the past evolutionary intentions of this soul were directly linked to evolving the conceptual, intuitive, right brain faculties - this with Pluto Virgo 9th, and nn ruler mercury is also in 12th.  
He doesn't express an integrated intuitiveness, yet attempts to have others read his mind or likewise to communicate--a codependency of sorts.  It doesn't feel manipulative, but more innocent, unaware.

b.  If the north node and Pluto really are in separate houses, the effort he has put forth to success on his own (nn 10th) would directly reflect the service/helping others role within the career.  Now, carpentry, sure, I can see that - how much do you see this is him?  
It's very strong, the area of his life he feels most confident--Saturn in Capricorn opposing Mars in Cancer.  He wants to become licensed business owner, but needs help with the paperwork.

c.  The cusp of the forth Pisces, its ruler Neptune Scorpio 12th does reflect the story of family alcoholism, no doubt.

d.  The mercury square to Uranus 9th - his capacity to plan work(carpentry example) would demonstrate his mental capability to see, in a brilliance of sorts, a bigger picture of how the projects unfold and a thinking outside the box in problem solving.

e.  Scorpio Rising?  do you think so?  In EA, this would be reflected with the instinctual desire to merge with something.  Now, in this chart, the mars cancer 8th emphasis of this impulse to dive deep, submerge within....what?  The moon(8th house ruler) brings us back to Scorpio 12th.  How much does he submerge himself is work?  What else, besides escaping the pain thru alcohol.
He wants to merge in relationship, and he works as much as possible, loves his work and also escapes in it.

f.  Sounds like mid individuated, with the story of joining bike gang and generally living outside the normal mainstream culture.  
Still is riding, now with sober riding club.

g.  Past of confusion...yes, the sn Pisces 4th w/ruler Neptune 12th, makes sense. With how deep the betrayal of needing to be his own nurturing security(sn Pisces 4th-parents checked out & mars cancer 8th on top of Scorpio AC), he must display both a sense of innocence and naivety about life, yet also have a huge guard up regarding whom he could trust. (past betrayals and violations of trust).  So, yes, this is reflected in his deep Resistance(fear) of receiving help(nurturing) from outside sources(mars cancer 8th), yet simultaneously desiring this.

I wonder about betrayal and his native heritage.  The Trail of Tears of the Cherokee people, the loss of their language--I feel he has immense trauma from the past.  Any thoughts specific to Mars-Saturn opposition--it seems he has to work so hard to care for himself.  Soul retrieval would be very helpful for him.

How did JWG and how does Rad get so clear about the past life specifics?


Thanks Bradley for your responses.  I am learning a great deal and hope to encourage Guy with more insights as he moves forward on his journey.  I've known him for twenty years (he's been resisting this help all that time).  He attempted to create a family (he has a son), but it wasn't healthy and it didn't provide him with the nurturing he was hoping to create or the nurturing he was hoping to provide.

Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 10, 2011, 01:54 PM
Hi Wendy,


a.  It is clear that the past evolutionary intentions of this soul were directly linked to evolving the conceptual, intuitive, right brain faculties - this with Pluto Virgo 9th, and nn ruler mercury is also in 12th.  
He doesn't express an integrated intuitiveness, yet attempts to have others read his mind or likewise to communicate--a codependency of sorts.  It doesn't feel manipulative, but more innocent, unaware.

From my understanding of this, we would start with the house Pluto is in.  So, before anything else, looking deeper into Pluto in the 9th vs. 10th.  Your response made it seem he might not have a Pluto 9th.  From Pluto I:  "Individuals who have Pluto in the 9th or Sag have had the desire and evoltionary need to understand life and  themselves in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical or religious context."

If this was a 9th Pluto, I noticed some of the common traits include "ability to laugh at oneself, can make others laugh at themselves, natural storytellers with a tendency to exagerate,..."

And, the last paragraph of Pluto 10th reads "Common characteristics of individuals with Pluto in the Tenth House or Capricorn include:  cycles of emotional withdrawl, need for social recognition and power, good organizers unless interfered with by other factors, natural leaders, deep and penetrating understanding of how 'systems' work, ambitious, serious, pragmatic, anxietyprone, given to cycles of depression, autocratic and hypocritical."

Well, of course I know you could do the same(rereading these) and probably already have; yet I am hoping by rephrasing the same questions, you will be able to rule out one of the placements.  You have brought this up on the Cap Thread, and you have not ruled out a 10th Pluto?? 
One other thought is that the 9th Pluto is a yang sign and outward traits are reflected the above in comparison to the 10th Cap.  Now, if he really has a North Node Pluto conjunction in Virgo 10th, he has already been evolving understanding of how "systems" work - the capacity to have his individual needs met(evolutionary stage) while working in this reality.  Structural analysis(10th virgo) would be evolving ability.  You did mention how much he will loose himself into his work.

 What if the North Node Pluto are 4th?  That does put the moon in SAG vs. Scorpio.  That would likely be pretty clear difference. 


b.  If the north node and Pluto really are in separate houses, the effort he has put forth to success on his own (nn 10th) would directly reflect the service/helping others role within the career.  Now, carpentry, sure, I can see that - how much do you see this is him?  
It's very strong, the area of his life he feels most confident--Saturn in Capricorn opposing Mars in Cancer.  He wants to become licensed business owner, but needs help with the paperwork.

Why?  Is this sense of accomplishment and certification part of larger philosophy/way of living that he is evolving?  Is it more coming from a sense of achieving his goals - to know he can do that?  It sounds like he is evolving the discipline to stay the course and accomplish this. What do you think?



How did JWG and how does Rad get so clear about the past life specifics?[/b]

My own understanding is that it is a combination of factors.  Both reasons can be seen in a Capricorn light.  I think when Jeffery began the Pluto schools, he had already the experience of over 30,000 readings.  In my own limited experience, the repetition of patterns over and over that many times, there is no more questioning of knowing certain things.  Then one "fills in the blanks" of the whys based on the observations, background info, ect.   Capricorn wisdom and mastering with experience and time.
Then, I am under the understanding that they both use Geodetic Map and deep knowing of ages and sub-ages in combination with planetary nodes.  This combination can give us great insights into wheres and whens of past lifetimes.  For me, this part is very systematic(cap) in contrast with the overall intuitive paradigm of EA.  Like the sequencing of Pluto, south node, ruler of...etc. It is the Capricorn definition of how we approach a chart.
The other thing is, of course, their evolutionary stage.  At that stage of evolution, there are levels of psychic ability and intuitive knowledge which is beyond most.
One thing I do want to add:  I do not have the knowledge/experience of using the combinations of Geodetic map, ages, and planetary nodes in this way, but what I am seeing is that this would be starting point for this type of information outside of psychic channeling or intuiting knowledge or directly conversing with God. 



Thanks Bradley for your responses.  I am learning a great deal and hope to encourage Guy with more insights as he moves forward on his journey.  I've known him for twenty years (he's been resisting this help all that time).  He attempted to create a family (he has a son), but it wasn't healthy and it didn't provide him with the nurturing he was hoping to create or the nurturing he was hoping to provide.

Wendy
Thanks Wendy and you are welcome.

Goddess Bless,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 10, 2011, 02:18 PM
It seems many descriptions of Capricorn are words that are hard to divorce from the reality of Patriarchy - which is why it's so important, I think, to really delve into them - as Ellen talked about 'mastery' and 'control'.

Domination is a term fraught with violence or implied violence - I don't think that naturally that is necessarily how it would be expressed.  Certainly animals do associate what we would call 'dominance' with the threat of aggression - my cat, for instance, is 'king cat' around here, why?  Because he's big & strong ( a norwegian forest cat) - however he doesn't abuse the other cats, etc.  It's just the way things are.  With other animals a fight for the right to procreate is serious business - the more 'dominant' is the winner and wins the girl, so to speak.  

With humans it seems the word is, as usual, totally screwed up in reality.  For instance, Black Elk was certainly a man who was recognized as a great holy man, who could mediate for others - he was 'dominate' in his 'field' (to use another patriarchal association) - however, in natural society his natural abilities in no way meant that any other person was less of a spiritual being or less a natural reflection of 'wakan tanka', etc. Which we can contrast with the catholic tradition - they are better than you and your route to 'god' and 'heaven' (they being the priests, bishops, pope, etc).  

 Or a warrior - a strong, focussed warrior would be 'dominant' over others who were not strong, focussed, fearless - but, these others would not be 'hazed' or beaten - they would be protected - and the right for that natural protection wouldn't be questioned (ie, in patriarchy the so-called 'weak' deserve to suffer or even die).

I think 'domination' is simply a word too fraught with patriarchal associations to be helpful - I'm assuming a word that correlates with this meaning exists in natural societies - in may not, it is helpful to see what words do not exist - for instance, I don't think the Lakota have/had a word for 'profane' - it's simply an incomprehensible idea, that anything would NOT be inherently and naturally sacred.

I am reminded of the words I quoted earlier in this post - about 'capability & ability' in substitution to the word 'dominance' -....anyway.... :)

Lucius,
Thanks for sharing this.  I continue to sit with all of this.
 One thought I had was 'stewardship':  Humans, with our evolved capacities and abilities which puts us in a class different than all other life forms, with this ability came the responsibility to be stewards of the land and all life their in.  Dominance, we agree, is a distortion of this role, human responsibility.
 We probably agree these types of actions are from immuture people who have a lot of insecurities - shadows of Cap and Cancer.  And, then there is also the nature of evil.
 
It is quite clear this North Node Pluto Capricorn conjunction is a call to step up to this role as responsible stewards of the land.  Yet, we see, the roles(Cap) are coming from distorted(patriarchal) beliefs and life philosophy(sag).  Now, we face compulsive control of the resource we call life.  I pray, simultaneously, many more are praying for fairness, equality, and inclusion.

One other thought, naturally social structure(Cap) faces the challenges of equality and fairness(square to libra) and the instinctive needs of personal freedom(square to aries) while, for growth(evolution) to occur, to include its polarity in these definitions of roles and responsibilities.  A steward, by definition, includes a nurturing approach to the land below our feet.  So, we see the polarity in the definition of the role.

Be well,
Bradley
 


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 10, 2011, 08:19 PM
Hi All,

I am backtracking here again.  Back to the 7 year old boy.  I am still asking why?
So, if it were true that there has been a prior life traumatic experience involving deification and public humiliation, which was linked to an intense confrontation of differing perspective - so why?  Why would such an event be experienced by someone? 
In this chart, the Pluto Sag 10th, sn Scorpio 9th which leads back to the Pluto 10th - wow, here is a soul whose beliefs and perspectives were directly linked with internal and external judgements - the security in this soul's knowing of 'right and wrong' bases on it's own beliefs and personal truths is highly developed. 
There had been an evolutionary need to do this.  Based on the evolutionary stage of the soul, the evolutionary need was to grow into his/her own version of the truth. (individuated) To evolve his own judgement such that it is based on a much bigger perspective/philosophy than the ways of life he was born into(consensus). 
Now, because he has evolved this(noting skipped step), there is implied limitation in the perspective he has evolved - WHY?  Because it has been limited to the evolving nature of his soul as his soul evolved through the individuation process.  Thus, his own perspective has the limitation of being aligned with an his own individuation. 

I need to go back to work. I'll come back and keep working through this.
Please, if anyone wants to add on, comment, or give feedback you are more than welcome.

Blesssings,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Deva on Jan 11, 2011, 09:04 AM
Hi Bradley et all. This is a great discussion about the Capricorn archetype! Bradley, would you please post birth info because I am having trouble reading chart you posted.
Thanks!
Deva


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 11, 2011, 11:09 PM
Deva and all,

He was born on June 30th, 2003 at 10:35 pm in Olympia, WA.

Thanks,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Deva on Jan 12, 2011, 09:02 AM
Hi, wanted to add a few thoughts I have about this chart. I can definitely see that public humiliation could be a cause for unresolved trauma for the boy (moon in cancer/6th house, Uranus and Mars conjunct in Pisces/1st house, Neptune rx in Aquarius in the 1st opposing Jupiter in Leo/7th house. Pluto RX in the 10th house in sag, and the South node in Scorpio/9th house demonstrates that the issue of being harshly judged in the past for his beliefs, and also of having internalized guilt and the judgements made about him is certainly a main theme. The need to purge such guilt, and to validate his natural sense of what is right and wrong is also reflected in this signature ( also by Jupiter in Leo/7th house trine Pluto in sag in the 10th).  The Moon is trine the South Node in Scorpio/9th house, and Mars/Uranus is trine his stellium in Cancer/5th house which demonstrates that the current family environment can be a source of emotional support and validation for him, and help him undo the past effects of such trauma by encouraging him to express and act on his own intuitive sense of right and wrong, and his own natural truth. In this way, he can purge the old patterns of guilt that are based on internalizing the judgements of others, and how he then interprets others in general (i.e-they are saying I did something wrong, or that i am bad) when necessary discipline or boundaries need to made from other adults. The family environment has certainly been a critical dynamic in the past relative the Cancer stellium in the 5th house, the Moon trine the South Node, and Mars/Uranus trine to his Cancer stellium. Perhaps he is healing from past trauma experienced in the family environment with his current family. 
Deva


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 13, 2011, 12:41 PM
Hi Deva,
Thank you for your response.  This is very helpful and reaffirming of some parts I was getting.
So, working through understanding the whys behind his current life circumstances, I believe the following resolves my core questions

Hi, wanted to add a few thoughts I have about this chart. I can definitely see that public humiliation could be a cause for unresolved trauma for the boy (moon in cancer/6th house, Uranus and Mars conjunct in Pisces/1st house, Neptune rx in Aquarius in the 1st opposing Jupiter in Leo/7th house. Pluto RX in the 10th house in sag, and the South node in Scorpio/9th house demonstrates that the issue of being harshly judged in the past for his beliefs, and also of having internalized guilt and the judgements made about him is certainly a main theme.

Here is the WHY of deep insecurity of self expression outside the home.  Another thought is that past life conditioning around the natural bodily functions has come from intense philosophical distortions.  He also has gone through years of not letting anyone see his feet, or him wearing short sleaves, especially fearful of removing shirt in public.

The need to purge such guilt, and to validate his natural sense of what is right and wrong is also reflected in this signature ( also by Jupiter in Leo/7th house trine Pluto in sag in the 10th). 

Okay, so I am getting that this is the WHY of why the experiences had to happen in the first place - the evolutionary necessity to purge deep seated perspectives on life which did not originate from a divine source, to say the least.

The Moon is trine the South Node in Scorpio/9th house, and Mars/Uranus is trine his stellium in Cancer/5th house which demonstrates that the current family environment can be a source of emotional support and validation for him, and help him undo the past effects of such trauma by encouraging him to express and act on his own intuitive sense of right and wrong, and his own natural truth. In this way, he can purge the old patterns of guilt that are based on internalizing the judgements of others, and how he then interprets others in general (i.e-they are saying I did something wrong, or that i am bad) when necessary discipline or boundaries need to made from other adults. The family environment has certainly been a critical dynamic in the past relative the Cancer stellium in the 5th house, the Moon trine the South Node, and Mars/Uranus trine to his Cancer stellium. Perhaps he is healing from past trauma experienced in the family environment with his current family. 

Any here is the WHY of the current life circumstances - for evolution(growth) to proceed, it was necessary to be born into a family environment in which the parents would not impose judgements based on heavy religious conditioning.  This why is exactly as you said - the current life family creates the safe home to purge out the unnatural conditioning and resulting deep seated self judgements from the past. There is, of course, a lot more to this.  One thing I will add is that the mother, through visiting astrologers and psychics, has realized that her son was very powerful in previous related lifetimes(pluto 10th trine jupiter leo 7th)  There is a part of him that almost plays out a 'royal authority' of sorts in his communicating expectations.

Deva

Thank you again Deva, feeling much more resolve in getting the whys behind the circumstances here.
Be well,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on Jan 15, 2011, 01:44 AM
Capricorn - 10th house - Saturn


Social position                    
Authority
Judgment
Judge
Maturity
Old age
Repression
Oppression
Grief
Punishment
Discipline
Totalitarian

Fear
Rigid
Paralysis
Conformity
Suicide
Isolation
Conditioning by
(Family / Society)                    
Man-made law
"Fall from Grace"
Burden
Ancestral

Tradition
Guilt
Self-Defeat
Futility
Boundaries
Structure / Form
Nationalism
Patriotism
Politics
Responsibility
Depression


[P. Walsh, EA Archetypes]




Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on Jan 15, 2011, 02:18 AM
Hi Bradley and everyone,

This thread has been profoundly important for me:  thank you all so much.

I am so engrossed in deep observation of society in general as the Sun moves through Capricorn shedding its light on specific correlations.  With three planets in Capricorn in the 3rd house, Pluto has just passed my Venus and is moving toward Mercury.

The word "self-mastery" really sums up Capricorn quite well on an inner level.  We are all subject to Saturn's boundaries, structures and limitations upon our earth and within our consciousness.  Saturn is an Outer Planet, along with Uranus, Neptune and Pluto.

Not everyone lives according to consensus values, but due to different evolutionary conditions, can philosophically and spiritually live outside of the mainstream yet interact with it.  It just takes awareness and consciousness to CHANGE IT whilst living in it, if one is moved to do that.  These days it certainly takes a strong "no" response (backed up by natural intuition of what is right/wrong) to many of the old practices such as deforestation, uncontrolled cattle-breeding.....and so many other distorted activities based on abusing Mother Earth.

Pluto is doing the job of demolition while we take up the task of re-building the structures so that they are more sturdy and in line with Natural Law (Sagittarius), and evolving them toward the Planetary North Nodes of Pluto and Saturn:  presently 20 and 23 deg Cancer respectively (my Moon is 20 deg Cancer).  

So while the suppression and distortion of Capricorn energies got us into this mess (the patriarchy) in the first place, it will also take strong Capricorn/Saturnian determination and discipline to return this world to a better condition.  




Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 16, 2011, 07:06 AM
Hi Wendy,

a.  It is clear that the past evolutionary intentions of this soul were directly linked to evolving the conceptual, intuitive, right brain faculties - this with Pluto Virgo 9th, and nn ruler mercury is also in 12th.  He doesn't express an integrated intuitiveness, yet attempts to have others read his mind or likewise to communicate--a codependency of sorts.  It doesn't feel manipulative, but more innocent, unaware.

From my understanding of this, we would start with the house Pluto is in.  So, before anything else, looking deeper into Pluto in the 9th vs. 10th.  

Your response made it seem he might not have a Pluto 9th.  From Pluto I:  "Individuals who have Pluto in the 9th or Sag have had the desire and evoltionary need to understand life and  themselves in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical or religious context."

THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT HIM--NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT PLUTO URGES US TOWARDS EXPRESSION OF THE HOUSE AND SIGN ARCHETYPE


And, the last paragraph of Pluto 10th reads "Common characteristics of individuals with Pluto in the Tenth House or Capricorn include:  cycles of emotional withdrawl, need for social recognition and power, good organizers unless interfered with by other factors, natural leaders, deep and penetrating understanding of how 'systems' work, ambitious, serious, pragmatic, anxietyprone, given to cycles of depression, autocratic and hypocritical."

THIS COULD BE HIM--ALL OF THE FACTORS APPLY TO HIS PERSONALITY, THOUGH NEED FOR RECOGNATION/POWER IS NOT EXTREME LIKE SOME CAP SIGNATURES I KNOW, BUT IS CERTAINLY THERE, EXPRESSING AS A NECESSITY/SURVIVAL/ULTIMATELY HIS EVOLUTION.

Well, of course I know you could do the same(rereading these) and probably already have; yet I am hoping by rephrasing the same questions, you will be able to rule out one of the placements.  You have brought this up on the Cap Thread, and you have not ruled out a 10th Pluto??  
RIGHT, HE'S HAS SATURN IN CAP WITH OTHER CARDINAL PLANETS SO I THOUGHT THIS THREAD MAY BE APPROPRIATE.

One other thought is that the 9th Pluto is a yang sign and outward traits are reflected the above in comparison to the 10th Cap.  Now, if he really has a North Node Pluto conjunction in Virgo 10th, he has already been evolving understanding of how "systems" work - the capacity to have his individual needs met(evolutionary stage) while working in this reality.  Structural analysis(10th virgo) would be evolving ability.  You did mention how much he will loose himself into his work.

YES HE ENJOYS UNDERSTANDING HOW THINGS WORK, HOW TO BUILD OUT WHAT HE VISUALIZES/UNDERSTANDS, AND I FEEL HE MAY USE WORK TO DISTRACT HIM FROM LONELINESS, EMPTINESS IN HIS LIFE TOO.


 What if the North Node Pluto are 4th?  That does put the moon in SAG vs. Scorpio.  That would likely be pretty clear difference.  


b.  If the north node and Pluto really are in separate houses, the effort he has put forth to success on his own (nn 10th) would directly reflect the service/helping others role within the career.  Now, carpentry, sure, I can see that - how much do you see this is him?  
YES THIS FEELS RIGHT--HE IS A NATURAL CARPENTER, HE HAS STRONG IDENTITY WITH IT--ALSO BECAUSE HE HAS NO OTHER SKILLS, IT IS PRIMARY FOR HIM

It's very strong, the area of his life he feels most confident--Saturn in Capricorn opposing Mars in Cancer.  He wants to become licensed business owner, but needs help with the paperwork.

Why?  Is this sense of accomplishment and certification part of larger philosophy/way of living that he is evolving?  Is it more coming from a sense of achieving his goals - to know he can do that?  It sounds like he is evolving the discipline to stay the course and accomplish this. What do you think?
ACHIEVING HIS GOALS--TO BE MORE ACCEPTABLE IN SOCIETY, THEREFORE MORE SUCCESSFUL, AND ADVERTISEABLE.

Goddess Bless,
Bradley

Thank you Bradley.  I really appreciate you going into this chart with me, and I appreciate our discerning questions.  They lend more clarity to potentially gaining the true chart planetary placements for this man's chart.

I am however, still seeking to understand the nature of Saturn in Capricorn opposing Mars in Cancer.   This signature seems quite challenging.  It is definitely hard on his body and on his ability to care for himself, manage his life, how he feels about himself as a man.  Why would a soul need this aspect?  His progressed Mars will remain retrograde for the rest of his life, to remain in opposition to natal Saturn.  I am trying to understand why?

I thought about reposting his chart with Pluto NN in the 10th, but when I look at it, Scorpio rising doesn't really fit this man...what about the Saturn in Cap?  that would be similar to Pluto in the 10th, yes?  Also, the consideration of being born into a family of Native American descent, and parents who don't even recognize their son is dyslexic?  Maybe I need to ask Guy more clarifying questions? 

I appreciate more insights from you and any additional ones from our community about this chart.

Blessings,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 18, 2011, 01:49 AM
Hi Wendy,
I’m glad the questions were helpful. 
So, I have been giving a lot of thought to the meaning of the Mars Saturn opposition.
Also, if it were in the 2nd/8th and this chart were “right” with moving Pluto to the 10th.  The following I’m hoping is also helpful.

I find it noteworthy that Guy has such a challenge to open up and receive the help he needs.  With a Mars in Cancer, the soul’s desires would be consciously acted out in such a way that we’d see the desire to discover one’s own sense of emotional security.  There is a movement from seeking emotional security externally to internally - finding this within oneself.  Mars is in aspect to the nodes, so we know that the Mars patterns and what it symbolizes have played out in prior lifetimes. 
Now, Saturn is also in aspect to the nodes.  If Saturn were in the 2nd house, we’d see that, in waxing trine to the north node, he has already, prior to this life begun to actualize(waxing trine) the evolutionary purpose of the north node - in this chart - 10th house - to put this in lay-person’s terms: taking care of the responsibilities and tasks needed totally alone; to rely only on himself to achieve the success in the world - like securing the job which provides the resources he needed to survive.(10th to 2nd).  So, these house placements in this scenario surely fit this lifetime by what you have said.  Saturn in Capricorn in the second house - see how this is a symbol of one having a relationship to their self reflected in being totally alone and introspective?  Deep inner sense of isolation. 

Necessarily so because, the polarity of Mars in Cancer in a waxing trine to the south node symbolizing (especially with a 4th 8th placement) that, from a prior lives perspective, his evolutionary path of learning to self discipline himself and achieve his goals(Pluto 10th?) is coming from a space of needing to find the security to proceed only from within himself.(sn 4th/mars cancer 8th)  No outer source would be able to supply the security he had and still needs to achieve his goals in life.  Yet, from a past life perspective, the waxing trine to South Node from Mars(saying it is in the 8th) means he had been so full of his life’s purpose being fulfilled through security in merging with a power source outside himself.  Because it was the evolutionary lesson to learn to find this within(Mars in Cancer, also Mars in 8th, Saturn waxing trine to nn from 2nd), we know that he has experienced deep abandonment, betrayal, violation and loss of trust, abuse from family in this and other lifetimes.  The Pisces south node in the 4th really fits the story you have shared.  This combo also speaks to suppressing his feelings - all of the anger(individuated) he has internalized relative to all past life loss, betrayal - of his people as well as family.  If the ruler Neptune, plus mercury are in the 12th, then clearly this has led to a lot of confusion about whom he could trust.  Pisces on the 4th, Venus in the first, he would be a soft and sweet gentle man, and he’d be very guarded about letting anyone into his life to help him - his past wounds of being let down, betrayed, confused are so deep that the walls are so thick - he does not let in the help he needs.  This is reflected again in the inner relationship to himself with cap and saturn 2nd.  Scorpio ascendent naturally constructs a taurean persona of deep rooted limits, staying very self contained in the way he would relate to others.  Scorpio rising and moon/mercury/sn ruler neptune in scorpio - he is confused about the deep seated betrayals, abandonment, the reasons why have not been clear to him of why he has gone thru this.

From a current life point of view, the Mars in Cancer - saying it is the 8th - he is being called to have the courage to make a break from the past - being a total loner - and overcoming the fears and mistrusts and insecurities to again learn to open up to others - with the learned lessons of necessary discrimination of whom to let into his life - not, as in the past out of innocence and need for security externally, and seeing the best in others - which led into the past lifetimes of relationships which he experienced these deep woundings in the first place. 

The separating opposition is tied to Libra(in contrast to the applying which is still more virgonian) - hence, in this case the baggage he would need to drop for his evolution to proceed is the pattern of living inside himself(sn 4th/Saturn Cap 2nd)  He is afraid to come out of the his shell.  To act out his desire to learn to relate to others secure in his own individuality he has these huge hurdles to pass. 
The little steps in finding the right people who he can trust, confide in and honestly wish to help him - forming these relationships and the sharing within them would be big steps.  Like his relationship to you.  For Guy to trust, listen to, and give your advice a chance, seeing it is coming from a place of pure intention, would benefit him greatly and be a really big step.  It has just become so much easier relying on himself to achieve his goals, yet he is in the face of the limits within his own capacity. (Saturn Cap 2nd waxing trine nn)  He is afraid to trust again.(Mars Cancer 8th), yet, for evolution to proceed, this socialization process needs to continue(separating ‘waning’ opposition).

What do you think Wendy?  Am I off my rocker or maybe we are getting closer?
As always, if someone sees misinterpreting in my writing, I am open to this feedback and the learning process.

Blessings,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 18, 2011, 09:48 AM
Yes, this is so right on!  Thanks so much Bradley!  I had seen Mars in aspect to the nodes, but had not looked deeply at the relationship.

I am thrilled to have some real substance to share with him.  He tends to project onto me, wants to be in intimate relationships with me, but given our soul trajactories (I am much more willing to embrace my evolution), it isn't possible for me.  I am so empathic, I feel way too much to be involved unconsciously.

Our composite chart SN lands right on my natal Moon in Capricorn 24.  I feel an emotional responsibility towards him, and care about him too.  Maybe I was his mother in a past life, or participated in his difficulties somehow?  Don't know. 

What I can do though is share this information with him, responsibility, using loving discernment.  His NN Pluto conjuncts my Uranus Pluto Venus (in the 4th).   He feels drawn to me, that somehow I have the answers for him.  Maybe his soul feels drawn to my ability to go lovingly deep with him without losing myself (Uranus), maybe that is our true connection in this life (his Pluto lands right on my mid-heaven).

I emailed over the weekend to see if he had his birth certificate, he is going to try to get it from the hospital he was born in.  It would be really great (fun) to see if we are accurate in our assessments.

Thanks again Bradley.  I am learning and learning, how t interpret the planetary aspect relationships.  What you have written truly aligns with what I know of Guy and what he has shared with me. 

FYI~I also have another chart to post, full of Capricorn.

Goddess Bless,
Wendy





Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 18, 2011, 10:25 AM
This is the chart of my nephew.  He just turned 18 as Saturn squares all his natal Capricorn planets.  This life has not been easy for him.  Alcohol and drug addiction are themes that have run through my family history for generations (I spent the first half of my life surviving and recovering from the ramifications of it), and his mother, my sister has a great deal of resistance to healing deeply (Cancer rising, Neptune Venus conjunction in Scorpio 4th, Pluto Moon conjunction Virgo 2nd), though she has provided him with consistency she is in a continual state of PTSD and sugar addiction, on anti-depressants and going to therapy for ten years.  His father is a crack addict who refuses to get help.  Michael has been exposed ugly, scary situations from early on.  

Anyway, Michael is definitely in an individuated state.  He abhors convention (acting out his anger at the family system and the collective patriarchal system).  He is not going to graduate from high school in the spring.  He has been skipping classes for at least a year (to get high--this started when the nodes crossed over his Sun/Mars, and he started having sex, 2nd/8th placements), even with intervention from his mother, a therapist and school counselor.  In early December, just as Saturn squared Capricorn planets, he was arrested for possession of marijuana.  I went to see him and showed him his chart, talked about Saturn, how it relates to Capricorn, how the police were an expression of his Saturn/Capricorn archetype, and that if he didn't start taking more responsibility for himself the outer expressions of Saturn authority would only increase.  He understood what I was talking about and was glad to discuss it.  He stopped smoking pot after that and is back to his normal self, but his anger at his mother has him trapped.  I believe he is really afraid to express it (he does to a certain degree) deeply.  If he really got to the root of his feelings, all the trauma from the past (this life and others) would rise to the surface.  I think he needs more support before that can happen.

He went to court last week and has numerous tasks he has to complete within 60 days, one being attending out-patient rehab, the others, community service and classes.  I am grateful for all that is happening now, as it offers him another way to deal with his situation.  Micheal is a really good kid, who doesn't want to take responsibility for himself (because he wants his parents too take responsibility first for themselves--I know the story--I grew up similar, but much more abuse-4th house Pluto Virgo).  

I would love to see what our Capricorn thread has to say about this chart.  Another Mars in Cancer, this one retrograde, in opposition to Uranus Neptune Sun.  Jupiter (ruler of 7th house NN) in Libra squares the opposition.  His NN Sag, SN Gemini (ruler in Cap 13 8th) with Pluto in Scorpio in the 6th.  Micheal also has Saturn in opposition to Chiron and square Pluto.

The generation of kids born with the Uranus Neptune Capricorn, Pluto Scorpio are likened to the Uranus Pluto in Virgo generation.  They are an interesting intense group.  Many of Micheal's friends have committed suicide or have been killed.  Tatoo's and body piercing are big with this group too, though Michael doesn't have any.

(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/MA.gif)


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on Jan 19, 2011, 05:39 PM
Thank you so much to Bradley and all who participated on this thread.


Please feel free to continue the discussion (especially regarding the charts that Wendy posted).


Gonzalo will host the Aquarius archetype thread coming very soon.


Stacie will host the Pisces archetype thread in one month's time.


Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer and Leo to go.  Please let me know if you're interested in conducting one of these archetype threads in the coming months.




Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 19, 2011, 06:08 PM
Thanks Linda for organizing all of this.  I am enjoying these thread so much.

Blessings,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Dhyana on Jan 20, 2011, 03:50 AM
Hi Linda :D, I can't read the pink letters at all -too light --maybe my computer --it must say Pisces, but can't really make out name of who is hosting it?  just an fyi.

And Wendy, Bradley, I am learning a lot about the Cap Archetype, and Ea through the charts posted by Wendy etc.  and surely from Bradley's response --hope it continues.  Especially bc I have twins with that generational aspect of Neptune Uranus  in Cap H11 opposing Mars in Cancer, Moon in the 8th. Pluto in Scorpio in 9th. etc.  So, it will be invaluable for me to read on bc of this, as well!

Thanks  so much you guys, for all your dedication.

Love
Dhyana


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Jan 20, 2011, 02:02 PM
Hi Wendy,
I am, due to life circumstances, unable to give the time to response.  I commit to following up on this last chart posting when I am able if no one else has.
Thank you
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jan 20, 2011, 02:35 PM
No problem.  Thank you Bradley so much for all you have offered on this thread.  I truly appreciate it.

Blessings,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Bradley J on Mar 14, 2011, 12:09 PM
HI Wendy,

I hope you are well.  I have been carrying around your nephew’s chart and pondering this for some time, naturally coming in and out of my consciousness.

Here are a few thoughts to start off a dialogue.
This soul’s evolutionary intention is symbolized by Pluto in Scorpio 6th and all aspects to it.  As we are talking about Capricorn/Saturn Archetype, the applying square of Saturn to Pluto is key to keep in mind.  This, perhaps, is a symbol of, on a soul level, one of his deepest crisis and challenges. 
The lifestyle he chose to be born into reflects the exact opposite of his evolutionary intention - that is to live a live naturally free.  Saturn in Aquarius in the 9th is symbolic of a definition, the actual structure of his consciousness, based on the inner truths, beliefs, knowing that people are suppose to be/were at one time naturally free in their way of living.  He has reached a point, like many of us, where on a soul level, he is liberating from the distorted truths of patriarchal reality.(you already know this)  You said he arbors convention.  In a Saturn Aquarius 9th structured consciousness within the individuated evolutionary state, the ‘should of’ and ‘ought to’s’ of his definition(Saturn) of how we are suppose to live(9th) are only resonate with the belief that we ought to be free and we should liberate ourselves from arbitrary authority and self appointed authority. 
Okay, this may all be obvious and in your thoughts already.  Anyway, to go on...
the applying waxing square to Pluto in the 6th - how hard is it to be born in this culture, in his specific sub culture within it, in this ‘country’ and go though one’s teens when, on a soul level, one desires to submerge oneself within a service role, some kind of helpful work.  Where is that opportunity?  Why is it not here?  Why be born into a situation which is void of the unique individual definition of reality and of the chance to fulfill the deepest level desire - the desire of the soul.  This sets up a dynamic of Pluto 6th house experience of total emptiness of life.  I think so many of our youth naturally start to smoke pot because they are so disengaged from the reality the ‘chew chew’ chugs along with or with out them train of capitalistic driven society/culture.   “The world doesn’t need our youth” is the message we are sending the nation’s youth.  Sure, go ahead and stay in school til you are 24 or 26, whatever - you are not needed.  What an empty culture to be born into as a youth.  Well, there are sub cultures of course and I am being extreme to make a point; however, in general it is true(I believe).  And to be someone like your nephew whom has gifts and talent and an amazing genius capacity to plug into and help out with something greater than himself...but to not have this around him or avaliable to connect with something that resonates with his definition of how people ‘should’ be living...here in lies the symbolic applying waxing square of Saturn to his Pluto 6th - his is experiencing this crisis in action - to put into clear defined form his own resonate definition of how people can live freely.  Why desire to take responsibility to participate in a way of living that one arbors.  Then, what responsibilities and commitments are there that do resonate with core values.Of course, his parents reflect back the imprisonment within their own reality which intensify this struggle for ultimate meaning.

The chart, with Sun Uranus Nepture conjuction reletive to PPP 12th, it is clear that there is a need to have this definition go way beyond the human constructed definitions and teachings, unless they reflect ultimate truth, of course.
Whom else does he have in his life, like yourself, which reflects back to him a deeper ultimate meaning of life?  Of ways individuals can naturally live free and uninhibited?
That Saturn Pluto square could very well be a life long struggle for him.  My understanding of our job as Evolutionary Astrologers is to accelerate souls through these crises.  So, like, maybe by just saying what this struggle is symbolically, in light of the Pluto Scorpio 6th to the Saturn Aquarius 9th, he could have a new frame of reference, a new lens which he can then perceive his experiences through.
What are your thoughts?

Goddess Bless,
Bradley


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Mar 14, 2011, 06:32 PM
Gosh Bradley, I so appreciate your conscious thought and willingness to come back to this thread and share your insights, specific to my nephew's chart.  I will read and reread your comments and reply back soon.

Thanks again,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Mar 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
I had an astrology reading with an evolutionary influenced (JWG influenced) astrologer and shaman the other day and she talked about Ea in relation to Saturn.  I don't think that was mentioned here.  I haven't done any research beyond what I recall her saying but as I understand it, Ea were fishes from the sea who emerged from the sea as goats (thus the goat-fish) to teach things like agriculture to humans. 

This same astrologer also made the observation that Saturn is believed to be even more of a gas giant than Jupiter, with even less solid mass.  And that the rings around Saturn are constantly reshaping themselves.  I did not know either of these things and to me they add a new dimension of understanding the archetype... Saturn, in its natural state, is not rigid, but malleable.  And perhaps it could be said that it has the function of providing the form needed in a given situation - the form that is most constructive and useful....?

Peace,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Mar 19, 2011, 02:05 PM
This is from the website "crystal links" (http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html) about Enki, the god that precedes EA:


"Enki was a deity in Sumerian mythology, later known as Ea in Babylonian mythology. The name Ea is of Sumerian origin and was written by means of two signs signifying "house" and "water". Enki was the deity of water, intelligence and creation. The main temple of Enki was the so-called é-engur-ra, the "house of the (water-)deep"; it was in Eridu, which was in the wetlands of the Euphrates valley at some distance from the Persian Gulf. He was the keeper of the holy powers called Me. The exact meaning of his name is not sure: the common translation is "Lord of the Earth": the Sumerian en is translated as "lord", ki as "earth"; but there are theories that ki in this name has another origin.He is the lord of the Apsu, the watery abyss. His name is possibly an epithet bestowed on him for the creation of the first man, [Adamu or Adapa. His symbols included a goat and a fish, which later combined into a single beast, the Capricorn, which became one of the signs of the zodiac. Enki had a penchant for beer and a string of incestuous affairs. First, he and his consort Ninhursag had a daughter Ninsar. He then had intercourse with Ninsar who gave birth to Ninkurra. Finally, he had intercourse with Ninkurra, who gave birth to Uttu.

"According to Sumerian mythology, Enki allowed humanity to survive the Deluge designed to kill them. After Enlil, An and the rest of the apparent Council of Deities, decided that Man would suffer total annihilation, he covertly rescued the human man Ziusudra by either instructing him to build some kind of an boat for his family, or by bringing him into the heavens in a magic boat. This is apparently the oldest surviving source of the Noah's Ark myth and other parallel Middle Eastern Deluge myths.

"Enki was considered a god of life and replenishment, and was often depicted with streams of water emanating from his shoulders. Alongside him were trees symbolizing the male and female aspects of nature, each holding the male and female aspects of the 'Life Essence', which he, as apparent alchemist of the gods, would masterfully mix to create several beings that would live upon the face of the Earth.

"Eridu, meaning "the good city", was one of the oldest settlements in the Euphrates valley, and is now represented by the mounds known as Abu Shahrein. In the absence of excavations on that site, we are dependent for our knowledge of Ea on material found elsewhere. This is, however, sufficient to enable us to state definitely that Ea was a water-deity, lord especially of the water under the earth, the Apsu. Whether Ea (or A-e as some scholars prefer) represents the real pronunciation of his name we do not know.

"Older accounts sometimes suppose that by reason of the constant accumulation of soil in the Euphrates valley Eridu was formerly situated on the Persian Gulf itself (as indicated by mention in Sumerian texts of its being on the Apsu), but it is now known that the opposite is true, that the waters of the Persian Gulf have been eroding the land and that the Apsu must refer to the fresh water of the marshes surrounding the city.

"Ea is figured as a man covered with the body of a fish, and this representation, as likewise the name of his temple E-apsu, "house of the watery deep", points decidedly to his character as a god of the waters. Of his cult at Eridu, which goes back to the oldest period of Babylonian history, nothing definite is known except that his temple was named Esaggila = "the lofty house", pointing to a staged tower (as with the temple of Enlil at Nippur, which was known as Ekur = "mountain house"), and that incantations, involving ceremonial rites, in which water as a sacred element played a prominent part, formed a feature of his worship.

"Whether Eridu at one time also played an important political role is not certain, though not improbable. At all events, the prominence of the Ea cult led, as in the case of Nippur, to the survival of Eridu as a sacred city, long after it had ceased to have any significance as a political center. Myths in which Ea figures prominently have been found in Assurbanipal's library, indicating that Ea was regarded as the protector and teacher of mankind. He is essentially a god of civilization, and it was natural that he was also looked upon as the creator of man, and of the world in general.

"Traces of this view appear in the Marduk epic celebrating the achievements of this god, and the close connection between the Ea cult at Eridu and that of Marduk also follows from two considerations:

the name of Marduk's sanctuary at Babylon bears the same name, Esaggila, as that of Ea in Eridu
Marduk is generally termed the son of Ea, who derives his powers from the voluntary abdication of the father in favor of his son.

"Accordingly, the incantations originally composed for the Ea cult were re-edited by the priests of Babylon and adapted to the worship of Marduk, and, similarly, the hymns to Marduk betray traces of the transfer of attributes to Marduk which originally belonged to Ea.
It is, however, more particularly as the third figure in the triad, the two other members of which were Anu and Enlil, that Ea acquires his permanent place in the pantheon. To him was assigned the control of the watery element, and in this capacity he becomes the shar apsi, i.e. king of the Apsu or "the deep." The Apsu was figured as the abyss of water beneath the earth, and since the gathering place of the dead, known as Aralu, was situated near the confines of the Apsu, he was also designated as En-Ki, i.e. "lord of that which is below", in contrast to Anu, who was the lord of the "above" or the heavens.

"The cult of Ea extended throughout Babylonia and Assyria. We find temples and shrines erected in his honor, e.g. at Nippur, Girsu, Ur, Babylon, Sippar and Nineveh, and the numerous epithets given to him, as well as the various forms under which the god appears, alike bear witness to the popularity which he enjoyed from the earliest to the latest period of Babylonian-Assyrian history.

The consort of Ea, known as Damkina, "lady of that which is below," or Damgalnunna, "great lady of the waters," represents a pale reflection of Ea and plays a part merely in association with her lord."


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Sunyata on Mar 23, 2011, 10:09 PM

When structures are built, and rules and laws are created without the intelligence of the emotional body, or the value it affords, the shadow of Capricorn is operating.

 

This is an amazing quote. I wish our politicians understood this as they came up with laws.

I wanted to talk about the emotional structure (cancer/cap) of an individual via the cap/cancer polarity as it is linked to the parents.

I will offer up a chart as an example to work through.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/horseface18/Gabriel.gif?t=1300938351)

This child has been diagnosed with an 'emotional disability' via his school where he has been having issues since pre school. Some of the issues include throwing charis across the room, running out of the classrom, peeing on the rocks outside. Through the puclic school system he has been placed in a classroom where the emphasis is on 'acceptable classroom behaviors' with the intent of the child learning basic social structure so that he can be 'mainstreamed'. At the beginning the teachers did not know what to label him as and he was labled as possibly having aspergers, autism, schitzophrenia, bipolar.... whatever they could think of. Testing revealed none of those and so he was given a general label of 'E.D.' (emotional disorder so that he would qualify for this class that he has been in.

He grew up with a half-brother (via the mother) who was 6 years older than him who was actually diagnosed with bi-polar disorder at the age of 9 and he witnessed many of the violent outbursts of his older brother which were uncontrollable by either parent, for his first years of life.

The mother and father split and the boy went with his father at the age of 5 and has been with him ever since. The mother is what I call 'an occasional mother' and has turned into almost the nonexistant mother now.

The father has said 'everything I learned about being a father, I learned from my mother.' and what he means by that is that he was very close to his mother and felt her love very strongly while she was alive and he has tried to give what he had in that regard to his son as much as he can.

So my questions in this chart are regarding the nodes in the 10th and 4th, cap and cancer. With the north node being in the 4th and ruler moon being in the third opposing the chiron/sun/pluto/merc stellium is how does that play into the childs 'e.d.' via the emotional structure that he has come in with as it relates to the real life mother. And in this chart is there a possibility that the emotional healing actually come via the father or is that just a phenomenon of the energies of the past playing out and repeating themselves in the early life? Right now it is the father that is providing the emotional structre to this child, he is literally playing the role of father, mother and more to him because of the mothers absence.

And beyond that how much in EA is the emotional structure tied to the parents via cancer/cap?

Thanks


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on Mar 24, 2011, 03:56 PM
Hi Sunyata,

 All children choose their parents relative to the ongoing evolutionary needs of their Souls. And, of course, there are typically ongoing karmic issues as well. Thus, the emotional reality of each parent, individually and in combination, correlates to the ongoing emotional needs and requirements of the children they have: whatever they may be.

 The child you are asking about has an inner emotional reality that is rooted in a deep sense of being victimized by life in general, and those closest to him specifically. Within this the child has chosen to create intense realities of many lives of abandonment, and realities in which all trust extended would be violated. Because of this this has lead to a deep, unresolved, state of anger  within the child's Soul. The inner anger is such that due to prior life traumas, and the relative traumas of this life, that his reactions to specific circumstances will be highly disproportionate to the circumstances themselves.

 Complicating this is the fact that he missed a core developmental step as a child in many recent lifetimes, including this one. This is a natural step that all children go through right around 20 months of age or so. This is a step in which the child learns to internalize a sense of security when one or both parents are not present. This Soul has missed that step. As a result, the emotional reality within the child is rooted to this developmental step being missed.

 A child naturally expects to be loved and nurtured for who they are, and what they need. When this is combined with that vital developmental step at 20 months of age the issue of 'expectations' is thus carried forwards from that missed developmental step. When this projected expectations are not met, according to the Soul, this can then trigger the extreme emotional behaviors that, again, are disproportionate to the circumstance at hand.

 This is a Soul who have failed to learn, over many lives now, and carried into this one, to take responsibility for his own actions and choices. Because of this all the other emotional dynamics above become even more extreme. This is a Soul who from an evolutionary point of view is learning not only to accept the responsibility in his own actions, but to become inwardly secure from within itself. And, from there, a core form of self reliance that then allows for self sustaining life.

 There is no need to 'label' this child in any of the ways that the 'system' has tried to do. It's a matter of understanding the why's of the child's behavior. And, from there, helping the child to understand why he has created what he has.

 God Bless, Rad 

 


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Sunyata on Mar 24, 2011, 08:53 PM
Thank you very much for that insight, Rad.

What you wrote in the second paragraph.....

"The child you are asking about has an inner emotional reality that is rooted in a deep sense of being victimized by life in general, and those closest to him specifically. Within this the child has chosen to create intense realities of many lives of abandonment, and realities in which all trust extended would be violated. Because of this this has lead to a deep, unresolved, state of anger  within the child's Soul. The inner anger is such that due to prior life traumas, and the relative traumas of this life, that his reactions to specific circumstances will be highly disproportionate to the circumstances themselves."

...actually sounded alot like his father as well as far as the victimisation, the abandonment and such. It has been brought up also that there is a belief by the father that the two were seperated by a shared trauma in another life.

The developmental step that you refer to in this life was actually at a time when the mother threw the father out of the house for a period of months and the child and father were separated for the first time because of this. The father had been a 'stay at home dad' and the mother the worker. The father was the diaper changer, the feeder, the put down for a napper, the tucker in bed, the one who woke up with the child at night early on. When the father returned months later he remembers laying down with his son the first night and the boy staring in his fathers eyes and touching his face, not being able to take his eyes off his father for nearly an hour. It was something the father vividly remembers as the emotion was strong. That happened at about 25 or 26 months of age.

The child to this day at age ten will gravitate towards playing with toys that are the toys you buy for two and three and four year olds many times, not all the time but many times.

He overcompensates now in the form of trying to be the class clown, because he believes that if he makes people laugh they will like him, yet all it does is has the opposite effect where people think hes a "freak" ( his word) and he pushes people away... he claims to be miserable inside. He has asked his father to go see a counselor and they are actually going for an intake tomorrow. He wants to talk to someone.

Thank you for your insight. Is there anything in EA that is reccomended for helping a child with developing the core sense of responsibility, the emotional security or anything that the father can do that is part of the EA network of understanding? It seems like there is an opportunity for both of them to heal their emotional bodies together in this life.

Thanks again


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on Mar 25, 2011, 08:21 AM
Hi Sunyata,

 With this boys S.Node in Capricorn in the 10th, and trine his Saturn in Taurus in the 2nd, his Venus/Neptune conjunction in Aquarius in the 10th that is trine to to his Jupiter in Gemini in the 2nd, the inner relationship the boy has within himself is very much like the inner relationship that the father has within himself. They do indeed have a shared trauma, more than once, in prior lifetimes as symbolized by not only that same Venus/Neptune conjunction in Aquarius in the 10th, but also the square from the Saturn to Uranus in Aquarius in the 11th.

 The intention of this child, his Soul, is to heal in this life. And that healing is very, very possible Sunyata. The grand trine with his Mars, Saturn, and Uranus.....Uranus the archetype of trauma. His Jupiter in Gemini trining his Venus/Neptune in Aquarius ruled by that Uranus. Both Mars and Uranus sextile his Sun. It is entirely possible. The fact that the boy is asking for counseling demonstrates his Soul's intent to do so.

 One of the past life triggers that needs to be very carefully worked with in this life is the fact that in certain recent prior lives he experienced very harmful judgments from many others, judgements about him that were projections of others own realities, not his. And that is because his Soul, evolutionarily speaking, is 'different' than the consensus type of person. And it is this difference, not understood by a consensus type people, that became the causative factor in those harmful projected judgements upon him. This of course has been deeply, deeply wounding to the child, his Soul. These wounds come with him into the current life and of course contribute to the unresolved anger within the child himself. This too has been part of the father's own reality over many lives. It is totally shared between them.

 Because of this it would be very, very beneficial to the child to have him in an altogether different environment other than public schools. The very best scenario for him would be one of home schooling if possible: N.Node in the 4th. If this could happen then the boy could grown up in his own natural way, mature in his  own natural way because of that skipped step in his early life. Social interaction with others must occur of course but those interactions can be controlled by his father: a pick and choose approach that the boy himself felt drawn towards. In this way he would then discover other kids that he felt a natural bond with and those kids could become his friends: friends who wanted to be his friend, and visa versa.

 In addition in a homeschooling scenario he could learn in his own natural way, not the consensus way of learning in a public school. This boy is VERY, VERY INTELLIGENT, NATURALLY SO. Yet unless he is truly interested in what he is learning he will have a tendency to simply tune out.

 It could also be very beneficial to find an activity through which he could channel and release the deep built up anger within his Soul. By find such a channel that allowed for the constructive release of that anger this would then have a deeply stabilizing affect on the child's Soul. An example of such an activity would be a martial art that is taught from a spiritual point of view not just how to hurt and kill people.

 In terms of his deep evolutionary lesson of learning how to accept the responsibility in his own actions this can best be done by the father himself in the form of teaching him this. This sort of teaching is best done by way of 'story telling': his stacked 9th House in opposition to his Gemini Moon in the 3rd. The very nature of such stories would of course contain this teaching. In this way the boy can take in the story in such a way as to be able to make his own internal connections to the teaching, lesson, itself: to make it his own.

 If I were his father I would be telling this boy that his is a beautiful and fine Soul, person. Yet, like all Souls, each has their own story that covers many, many lifetimes. And that his story is what it is, for the reasons that it is. And because of those reasons he has ended up in this life with these various dynamics and issues, just like any Soul has their own issues and dynamics. None is better or worse than any other, each is simply what is for the reasons that is so. And given what his story has been he had  landed in this life as he is, and because of that this is what we can do about it. In this way the boy can then feel empowered to be in charge of his life, to take responsibility for it. And, of course, the father, as ever,  can be with his boy every step of the way. In this way the father can also help heal his own issues. They can do this together.

 God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Sunyata on Mar 25, 2011, 12:46 PM
Rad,

Thank you for the incredibly thourough and insightful answers. Both beyond anything I could have come up with myself. I am truly grateful.

EA is so amazing. It is a community of people who can develop the ability to help people heal at the deepest possible level. I seriously bow to all of you who have taken up this work and made it your own lifes work. It is a like a rare treasure for those who are seeking.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on Mar 28, 2011, 12:38 PM
Hi Sunyata,

 If you need to ask about anything else concerning this boy please do not hesitate to ask.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Pattycr on Mar 29, 2011, 12:53 AM
Saturn,Uranus,Sun,Neptune and Mercury in 10th house here. (Placidus has Mercury on cusp of 11th, however, Porphyry has all 5 in 10th...Saturn/Uranus are conjunct in Sag on MC, the rest are in Capricorn)

Just wanted to offer thanks and gratitude for all of your wonderful insights. You've all given me much to consider, personally.

If I were to really make a suggestion here, the best I could offer is this, and it dovetails nicely with Ari Moshe's comment on Capricorn's relation to Sagittarius and Scorpio. I personally find one story of the Archetype of Capricorn,  best told in this manner. (There are of course many platforms one could stand on, this one just seems the most natural yet simple to me.)


With the sextile formed with Scorpio, Capricorn is the culmination, the final peak, if you will, of collective resources (Scorpio/Pluto/8th House), brought together in a method which can be utilized for Society as a whole (10th house, Midheaven and career, Capricorn, Saturn). Kind of like the Saturn/Pluto combinations, and their nice correlation to the Archetype of the Alchemist. Capricorn is bringing expression to Scorpio.

Capricorn is the gathering of all the resources from society. In Ancient times, the Winter Solstice is when the real 'test' is given, as to whether or not sufficient wheat, corn, supplies, were gathered. With Scorpio's association with survival, and Capricorn's association with the Winter Solstice, and the gathering of resources to make it through the cold winter, the correlation between the two becomes even more apparent and important, especially on a collective level.

As Capricorn is a Cardinal sign however, it is 'apparently' essential, to think in terms of what it DOES. What it's purpose is.

Capricorn's ruler, Saturn, is also co-ruler with Aquarius. Capricorn is gathering all of the resources, so the water-bearer can pour them back into Society, and eventually feed them back into the ultimate sacrifice of Pisces/12th house.

The real meaning to Capricorn as I see it, is how much we have gathered (from Scorpio's resources), which is essentially our potential for giving back (Pisces). This is why the middle ground, the gate keeper, of Karma in Saturn, is found in Capricorn. Capricorn is associated with the goat, which was always connected to Sacrifice...offering up what we have to the gods, so that they can give back to us.

I hope I articulated this clearly. I was in a bit of a rush in typing this out.

-Carol


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on Mar 29, 2011, 04:43 AM
With Scorpio's association with survival, ...  and Capricorn's association with the Winter Solstice,

.. isn't this is true only for the northern hemisphere?

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Sunyata on Mar 29, 2011, 07:57 PM
Hi Sunyata,

 If you need to ask about anything else concerning this boy please do not hesitate to ask.

God Bless, Rad

Thank you Rad. My only other questions are more out of curiosity of his past lives (he talks about China, says he is going to move there when he grows up) and if there is a significance to the venus,neptune, jupiter and MC all being at the same degree. Does the tightness of that conjuction/aspect (all being at 4 degrees) mean something different than it would mean if the orbs were spread out?

I realize that these are off the topic of Cap archetype too so if they are not appropriate I understand.
If something else comes up I will ask.

Thank you.
Sunyata


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on Mar 30, 2011, 08:03 AM
Hi Sunyata,

The vast majority of his prior lifetimes have been spent in brown skinned peoples. The evolutionary flow of his Soul has gone through lifetimes from India, China, Tibet, and Mongolia. His Soul was part of the original groups that migrated from the Siberian Peninsula over the land bridge, at that time, to what is now called Alaska, and then down to the South from there. His very last life came as far south to the Nez Perce Indian Nation. This life happened as the doctrine of Manifest Destiny had been in place for about forty years or so that justified the genocide of the American Indian tribes. He died with many others in his tribe when they were trading with the Whites who then purposefully were introducing the disease called 'consumption': tb. Astrologically tuberculosis correlates with Aquarius, the 11th house, and Uranus. Thus, his Venus/Neptune conjunction which is almost totally exact reflects this, as well as his Saturn squaring his Uranus in the 11th. Saturn is the ruler of his S.Node in Capricorn, the Venus/Neptune in the Capricorn house. This is one of the shared traumas he has had with his father who was also in that life as his father.

The 4 degree Venus/Neptune conjunction is a balsamic conjunction that correlates to culmination: culmination of many prior lifetimes that have involved the dynamic of trauma. I think the number 4, in numerology is also a symbol for completion but I could be wrong about that. With his Venus/Neptune in an exact trine to the 4 degree Jupiter in Gemini, and in a new phase relative to his natal Saturn, the ruler of his S.Node, this would then mean beginning a brand new evolutionary cycle relative to that which needs to be culminated.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Sunyata on Mar 30, 2011, 01:23 PM
Rad, again, thank you.

To just reaffirm what you see in the chart via his current life, regard the TB refrence, he was born with a wheezing in his lungs that lasted until about age two. He has a malformed rib which is, i believe, his second rib on his right side which never grew so the one below it grew partially and then split in two so that part of it 'tried to fill in the missing space of the one that didnt grow" (doctors words) and it is now beginning to protrude in the space between his neck and collarbone. There is a form of TB called Potts Disease which attacks the spine/bones. The doctor said he had seen many malformed bones but never anything like this. It is to be watched as he grows older because it is near an artery and may require surgery later.
He has said he wishes he had brown skin. He refered to himself as his first name for the first 3 or 4 years rather than "I". (in third person)
Favorite dog: Siberian Husky
One of his very few friends at school is the new kid from Mongolia.
His father is trying to get enough money together to move them to the pacific northwest. (Nez Perce)
His father gave him the middle name of Joseph becuase he had always wished that he had the middle name Joseph for himself when he was younger. (Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce)

I deeply appreciate all of this information and insight. It is invaluable.

Sunyata


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: jana on Apr 04, 2011, 07:18 PM
Hi Wendy,

I agree w/what Bradley said about Saturn square Pluto and was moved to send a poem I think captures the Capricorn/Sagittarian archetypes and aspects present in his chart as well as pointing to his need for self-reliance (Mars in the 2nd) in his search for communion with the divine (Mars trine Pluto/sextile 12th house TaurusPPP). His chart is heavily focused on the "other" (7th/8th house emphasis)....but standing in his own truth is where he needs to begin.

If by fellow Capricorn Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you  
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;  
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Apr 06, 2011, 05:35 PM
Hi Jana,

How very kind and thoughtful of you.  I truly appreciate you sharing this poem in consideration of my nephew.  I will share it with him when the time is right.

In gratitude, love and light,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on Jun 30, 2011, 08:16 AM
Hi Linda, Ellen and All,

I don't know how I missed your post(s) when we were all participating in the Capricorn thread, earlier this year.  I love what you shared and the link for it!  I am editing an article I wrote called 'Restoring Capricorn', and I wanted more information about the mythology of Capricorn.  I googled, 'matriarchal mythology of capricorn' and our EA forum thread about Capricorn Archetype came up http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php?topic=381.25;wap2 (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php?topic=381.25;wap2).

Bradley's, Ari's, Ellen's and your posts came up.  

Ellen, if it is okay with you, I would like to use your comments/quote in my article with your permission:

Where Cap goes wrong (in this patriarchal world only?) is in thinking that time and space (outer) is all there is, and thus it gets stuck, believing that "what is" is all there is, rather than understanding that "what is" is simply a moment in time - a platform (structure) from which to take the next step.  It is what we have created, but not necessarily what must come next.  The Emotional Journey - our connection to our inner emotional truth - is where possibility lies.  The mistake that Cap makes is in thinking that the form is reality.  The center of bones is not hard but soft and fluid-like.  Perhaps it could be said that what in fact what makes up form/structure is the emotional center....?

It has taken me quite some time to articulate exactly what I have wanted to say.  Now that I am moved and in a generous household, my writing is flowing.

It's been quite some time since I've posted on the forum--hello to everyone!

Love and blessings,
Wendy

Hi Ellen and everyone,

Further to your thoughts on the origins of the patriarchy, here are some extracts from Claudia von Werlhof's thesis, "Patriarchy as Negation of Matriarchy - the Perspective of a Delusion."  http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/werlhof.html

According to my thesis and seen from a matriarchal viewpoint, patriarchy is neither in itself nor of its own an order of society, culture, or civilization. It is not independent of matriarchal forms of society but has developed out of the negation of matriarchy. Seen as such, patriarchy has to be called a delusion.

I am pleading for understanding our social order as basically a global patriarchy which has evolved over a period of 5 to 7000 years, with global capitalism as its, so far, last and "highest" form of expression which marks the limits of its development.    

Patriarchy has a beginning and it will, therefore, eventually have an end. Seen from an evolutionary perspective, it is not "necessary" and it should, therefore, not be overrated. In other words: Societies organized according to "non-patriarchal" principles must, simply for logical reasons, have existed. Therefore, they can and possibly will, for the same logical reasons, develop again.

For very long periods of human history there globally existed a many-faceted matriarchal world culture, and patriarchy is, in its different forms of appearance, simply an evolutionary error of very recent origin, although an extremely dangerous and violent one.

Indigenous matriarchal cultures in North America know, for instance, two basic rules according to which they orient their lives: All life comes from women. Life must not be endangered.  Matriarchal societies all over the world and at all times would probably stick to these two basic rules.

According to the relevant literature, social relations probably lost their matriarchal character in a situation of need, danger, or emergency that might have occurred on account of climatic changes that were followed by "catastrophic" migrations in the course of which matriarchal social relations were injured and spoilt and finally destroyed (J. de Meo).

"Oriental despotism" determined the rise and development of patriarchies in antiquity and thus also the rise and development of Western patriarchy which was later established by means of Roman colonization and of violent waves of Christianization starting from Rome.

The tremendous use of violence, right from the beginning, characterizes patriarchal systems of domination.  As far as we know today, patriarchy always and everywhere begins with war.

With war as "the father of all things" instead of life as "the mother of all things", creation and wealth appear to come from willful destruction instead of from the cooperation of all things alive.

The delusion of patriarchy will, like a phantom, disappear from the surface of the earth ...



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jun 30, 2011, 08:44 AM
Hi Linda, Ellen and All,

I don't know how I missed your post(s) when we were all participating in the Capricorn thread, earlier this year.  I love what you wrote!  I am editing an article I wrote called 'Restoring Capricorn', and I wanted more information about the mythology of Capricorn.  I googled, 'matriarchal mythology of capricorn' and our EA forum thread about Capricorn Archetype came up http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php?topic=381.25;wap2 (http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php?topic=381.25;wap2).

Bradley's, Ari's, Ellen's and your posts came up.  I would like to quote some of what you wrote in my article if that is okay with you.

Ellen, I also would like to use your comments/quote with your permission:

Where Cap goes wrong (in this patriarchal world only?) is in thinking that time and space (outer) is all there is, and thus it gets stuck, believing that "what is" is all there is, rather than understanding that "what is" is simply a moment in time - a platform (structure) from which to take the next step.  It is what we have created, but not necessarily what must come next.  The Emotional Journey - our connection to our inner emotional truth - is where possibility lies.  The mistake that Cap makes is in thinking that the form is reality.  The center of bones is not hard but soft and fluid-like.  Perhaps it could be said that what in fact what makes up form/structure is the emotional center....?


[/quote]

Feel free to use the quote, Wendy.  Wonderful! to hear that your writing if flowing again.  Also, I just happened to look at this post (I miss a lot these days).  But if you ever need an answer from me, please feel free to message me.  I for sure look at messages when I get them.

Peace and well wishes,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on Jul 12, 2011, 07:02 PM
 

A baby gains a feeling of security when held securely by the mother.  


Wow, Linda.  Just reading through the Cap thread as part of my study of the Cap archetype and this quote by you just absolutely floored me!  I have been doing a meditation lately that involves breathing in as much love as you can possibly breathe in, and breathing out as much love as you can possibly breathe out.  (Mary Plumb from The Mountain Astrologer mentioned this meditation in one of her blogs.)  This meditation has gone through many permutations but now the image I work with is of me as an infant being held by a representation of the Goddess.  I breathe in her love, and feel it as the infant would feel it - just so viscerally, through the body.  Then I breathe out the love that the infant feels in return, in a sense as a form of profound comfort and security in the love received.  And I feel the profound healing that is happening from doing this meditation - how it has been such a fundamental experience that has been lacking for me and that, because it has/had been lacking, made it possible for any real, sustained love to ever really manifest for me.  It is as though by doing this meditation I am bringing into being an entirely new fabric as backdrop for my life.  So, perhaps this exchange of love/bond between mother and infant can be said to be, truly, THE foundational structure (Capricorn) of all life experience.  And creating structures (Cap again, ie, meditation practices) that foster the healing of any wounding to this foundational structure, would seem to also be key Capricornian work.

Thanks for you post....

Well wishes,
Ellen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 19, 2012, 09:44 AM
Hi Rad, Bradley and All,

I am beginning to incorporate the evolutionary states into my conscious awareness, and am curious to understand more.  Recently the man described below found his birth certificate, so we now have his birth time.  After sitting with him yesterday and talking, I am confused about his evolutionary state.  

Given the information written below, and seeing that both Pluto and Uranus are in the 11th house, with the nodes in 12th/6th, while also understanding further that the motorcycle group he rides with, along with the numerous tattoos, all spiritually related and Native American, that he has, he must be in the individuated state, but I can't seem to figure out which stage?

Because he is not so radically vocal, yet it shows in his dress, associations, and the expression of who he feels he is on his skin, does this relate to 2nd stage individuation?  He doesn't seem to fit 1st stage individuation, yet he doesn't seem so radically extreme in his rebellion.  Maybe I am associating rebellion with extreme and radical behavior.  I think he associates with other souls who feel alienated.  I know he feels that way, alienated from society on a core level, especially not having learned how to read and write.  And I wonder how much of that is associated with his native heritage, like past life heritage, where the native tongue of the indigenous cultures, like the Cherokees, had their language taken from them?

If this soul is in 2nd stage individuated, relative to the NN in the 12th house, does this signify the direction the soul is taking, moving towards 3rd stage individuated/1st stage spiritual?

Also with, planets Mars and Saturn in cardinal signs in the cardinal houses of 10th and 4th, does this represent a soul moving from one gender to another.  This whole topic confuses me.  I have lots of planets in the 4th/10th and I really don't resonate with being a man in previous lives.  I honestly feel I have been a woman many many times.  THoughts?

Thanks for any feedback you all might have.

Blessings,
Wendy

ALSO IF THIS MAY BE MORE APPROPRIATE ON ANOTHER THREAD, please let me know.
 
Hi All,

I am wondering if we can also look at another chart?  The birth time is unknown by this man.  Maybe after we read about his life we can surmise the placement of his Pluto, but it's a bit tricky as Pluto is on his NN.

Guy is a fifty year old male born in the US.  His mother's mother was of full-blood Cherokee descent. HE grew up playing (creating forts with the tables) in the bars where his parents drank--they were alcoholics.  He made it to the 11th grade without his parents or any teachers knowing he was unable to read or write. They didn't know he was dyslexic either.  Once his teacher discovered he could not read (just like his mother) he never went back to school to face it.  His parents clearly didn't spend time observing HIS educational development, such as reading with him.  (NN Virgo with Mercury, Moon, Venus conjunct in a T-square with Uranus and Chiron--Pluto square's Mercury, Moon, Venus conjunction)

There was no specific religion followed.  Guy eventually joined motorcycle gangs and took to drinking (SN Pisces) and went to jail for possession of drugs (nothing violent).

In 1985 Guy found Alcoholics Anonymous and got sober.  He began dealing with his reading challenges and received tutoring, but never went beyond the basics, and hasn't gotten help with the dyslexia.

To care for himself, Guy learned the art of carpentry.  He has supported himself for many years this way, and can interpret enough to manage his life.  He has a Sun-Saturn square (he has had to do it alone, without help).  Upon his mother's death, his step-siblings took all of her native belongings, so Guy has no material possessions connecting him to his mother or his heritage (he was closest to her in his life).

Guy is a gentle soul, who is unconscious of his soul pattern (meaning he is not free of the pain which leads him to question his life circumstances, which of course occurs periodically).  He doesn't understand why all this has happened and hasn't done the deeper inner child work and therapy work necessary to move out of it, and progress towards objectivity.  He did share with me the other day that he applied for unemployment and for the first time he checked the box for 'disabled', which means he is being honest with himself about his challenges and allowing others in, to possibly help him (he allows others to help him, but only as much as he is honest with himself he needs help with...the final pass of Chiron return and the last eclipse right on his Saturn in Capricorn is forcing the issue to come to the surface more).  

I asked if we can look at this chart because I am so curious why a soul would create the circumstances of not being able to read, and why Mars opposite Saturn--what is the past life issue that is creating such pain for him?  He did tell me, for most of his life he felt very confused.  Many time, for Guy to communicate, articulate what he feels and thinks is very difficult.  His language skills seem to be quite limited.

Here's the chart.  Let me know if I need to provide more information about his life.  


THIS IS THE CORRECT CHART posted 5/19/12:
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/astrochartg.gif[/img]](http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/astrochartg.gif) (http://[IMG)



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 19, 2012, 03:46 PM
Hi Jason,

Thank you so much for sharing your insight around this.  To respond, I spaced out much of what you said to make it easier for me to understand and to reply back.

Hi Wendy,

To me tattoos and motorcycle groups are not inherently 2nd stage individuated -- although that would be an immediate association for me, in reality it has to do with a person's inner orientation and the nature of his or her desires -- I've met motorcycle folks in all three levels.  I do not hear at a basic level the intense questioning nature or profound sense of difference/disidentification with consensus of a 2nd stage individuated.
HE DOES NOT QUESTION ON AN INTENSE LEVEL, ONLY WHEN DESPAIR ARISES--THOUGH I AM NOT IN HIS HEAD.  WHEN DESPAIR ARISES, WHICH USUALLY FIGURES AROUND WORK/FAMILY, HE GETS STUCK IN SHAME/GUILT AS YOU MENTIONED BELOW, AND DOES NOT SEEK OUT HELP, SUCH AS THERAPY OR HEALING ON HIS OWN, BUT GOES TO MEETINGS OR HIS MOTORCYCLE FRIENDS, AND/OR STAYS AT HOME AND ISOLATES--PROBABLY IMPORTANT TO A CERTAIN DEGREE FOR A CANCERIAN TYPE PERSON.

From the information here I think a consideration would be late 1st or early 2nd stage consensus -- in that the Soul could be grabbing onto the tattoos and motorcycle groups because it does not know how to make it in the world and is trying to be a member of a group that will accept him and support him -- similarly with AA, since not everyone who seeks recovery is in the individuated or spiritual levels of consciousness, and especially at this point AA has become quite acceptable in consensus reality.  
He has been alienated most of his life and grabbed onto alcohol, then AA, and has tried to create family of his own, for security, after that failed, he sought God through religion and eventually slipped and got sober again 8 years ago.  All of his biological family has passed on--he feels alone in the world.

This could simply be a Soul that is learning how to make it in the world, and hasn't yet acquired the tools or the how-to -- including for instance reading and writing -- as is the case for the early consensus stages -- learning how the world works and how to get around.  There are many gentle and kind, yet unreflective, Souls in the consensus stages, which is how you describe him.  

If this is true, the motorcycle stuff and alienation issues (which sound more a situation he finds himself in than a conscious inner orientation/choice), and hanging with that crowd, still make sense from his chart.  After all he has an 11th-house Pluto, so these themes are going to be pronounced any way it goes -- marginalization, outsider status, fringe, and so on -- and the feeling of needing to be part of a group can be very strong in this Pluto in consensus -- because of the experience of alienation it comes in with BECAUSE OF THE 11TH HOUSE?
-- leading them to do a lot to feel like a "member" including tattoos which could be a form without the level of deep meaning it might have for others in other stages.  

He also has a T-square of Uranus Leo 11th opposite Chiron Aquarius 5th both square Moon/Mercury Scorpio 2nd.  To me that is also a Soul that is going to be having difficulties with self-expression (5th/Leo) and wounds around groups that affect its very ability to survive (2nd), thus again likely to find itself on the outskirts of society and finding association with others on the outskirts.  THIS IS EXACTLY HOW HE FEELS, I HAVE HEARD HIM SAY THAT EVEN IN HIS GROUP, HE FEELS DIFFERENT AND ALIENATED.

And this becomes the way that he survives and gets his safety and security needs met (Moon, 2nd house) including relative to his communication difficulties (Mercury, receiving the squares), which themselves could then be seen as the way the Soul has facilitated its "membership" in these groups (Mercury in 1st Q square -- action), since this is part of what by necessity separates him from the mainstream.

Anyway, that is probably a lot given that you may have some very good reasons for looking at individuated primarily -- I think I was also working this out for myself :) YEAH ME TOO! -- hope that it may be useful in any case.  VERY MUCH SO--THANK YOU

I could also see your consideration of 1st stage individuated moving to 2nd here, and a lot of the last para could also apply, TO 1ST STAGE INDIVIDUATED?
 including why the Soul would set up the issue of not being able to read and write.  In this case, the issue would be more getting himself oriented to being "different" -- and therefore being in these outside groups, and also using the writing in terms of the Pluto Virgo of humbling himself and "forcing" himself to be with the outsiders -- and so finding himself hanging out in these groups in part in order to get more comfortable with his differentness (Pluto its own polarity in 11th due to NN conjunct).  Mercury after all is the ruler of the NN and Pluto, so the issues with writing/reading can serve his evolution, especially if he can really penetrate the heart of the "why" of that (Scorpio), why he would get into that situation.  I notice you are asking the why questions, is he? YES I AM ALWAYS ASKING WHY

I would, though, rule out 2nd individuated -- you seem to say you feel some issues with alienation but not that strongly or radically -- and with a chart like this with so much 11th/Uranus (Uranus also trines Jupiter and sextiles the Sun) I'd expect a 2nd individuated with these kinds of signatures to be pretty darn out of the box -- way out.
HE IS NOT WAY OUT!!

Also, I wanted to say that I see the link you are feeling about the writing issues and his ancestral line -- in that his Mercury is at that T-square pinch point which would be the writing/reading issues is also conjunct the Moon (mother, I believe it was his mother's line that is native--[b]YES[), and also is receiving the square from Uranus in the 11th and Chiron in Aquarius (all trauma and extended family signatures).  

About gender, to me planets in the 4th/10th houses have to do with incarnational issues -- how to relate to oneself and develop a working ego on the inside (4th) able to take on roles on the outside (10th), gender being one of the key ways this works out in duality.  At some point all Souls have gender switches, more the issue would be recency and whether a Soul is therefore still actively working out issues related to the switch (or preparing for a forthcoming switch).  When Pluto/SN/ruler are in 4th/10th Capricorn/Cancer then indications of recent gender switch are very clear; with other planets in these positions gender switch could also be indicated but I have never seen JWG say that planets (other than the Pluto/nodes/rulers) in Cancer/Capricorn must mean a recent gender switch.  Rad is this correct?

To me given the context you've provided the Mars/Saturn opposition speaks about a lot of deeply internalized shame and guilt (Capricorn/Saturn on IC) relative to the maternal line, that results in the restriction (Saturn) of an instinctual urge (Mars) to identify with that line (Cancer) in the world (10th), which would further his evolution
HE DOES ORIENT/IDENTIFY WITH NATIVE ANCESTRY--AS IDENTITY, AND FROM UNCONSCIOUS WOUNDED PLACE--I HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM ANGRY, JUST FRUSTRATED OR DOWN.  HE ALSO IDENTITIES WITH HIS MOTHER MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE I KNOW ABOUT HIM, OTHER THAN BEING A CARPENTER. BUT THIS COULD SURELY BE THAT HE IS CARRYING SHAME/GUILT OF MATERNAL LINE.

 (Mars as agent of Pluto, and sextile to Mars, so possibilities for a lot of conscious awareness here if this Mars acted on).  NOT REAL CONSCIOUS--MARS IS RETROGRADE FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, SO LOTS OF INTERNALIZATION, SHY IN MANY RESPECTS ESPECIALLY ASK HE AGES

Chiron in Aquarius is also deeply implicated in these dynamics (with an exact semisquare to Saturn and a sesquiquadrate to Mars), so he seems to have really been imprinted at an intense and cellular level with the wounding projections and outsider status conferred by white culture onto native people, and this is experienced by him (consciously or unconsciously) as humiliating and restricting (semisquare and sesquiquadrate) and very much introjected (Saturn/IC) as "reality" YES HE DOES THAT -- then he even makes it reality with the reading/writing thing so that he really is "outside" (Chiron square to Mercury).  All this remembering the basic orientation of his Pluto Virgo to feel that there is something wrong with me.  

The exciting thing is that there is that Pluto trine to Saturn meaning that there is potential to develop some greater awareness of this whole thing if he just starts asking "why" per his NN and Pluto ruler! I BELIEVE I AM THE ONLY PERSON IN HIS LIFE THAT ENCOURAGES THE QUESTION WHY--WE DON'T TALK OFTEN, WHEN WE DO I USUALLY BRING IT UP EVEN IF JUST IN REFLECTION OF MY OWN LIFE.  I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT HE DOES NOT GRAVITATE TOWARDS SHAMANIC CIRCLES OR THOSE WHERE HE COULD GET MORE EVOLUTIONARY NEEDS MET.  I'M SURE THAT IS BECAUSE I DO, AND AM AMAZED THAT OTHER FOLKS DON'T.

God bless,
Jason

p.s. -- Often I find in working with people astrologically or otherwise, that my process in engaging the chart is mirroring theirs -- from SN or NN depending on how awake I am... and in this case this would seem to be true, in that you are following his NN ruler and really asking why, why about these core dynamics -- and then, clearly from your message, intuiting a lot of the issues for example with his culture with great awareness even if the astrology may not be perfectly clear to you -- so in a sense activating that Pluto trine.  
I'M NOT SURE IF HE IS AWARE THAT HE EVEN HAS CORE DYNAMICS?  THERE IS LOTS OF SURVIVAL GOING ON AND PROJECTION ONTO WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO SAVE HIM.  HE DOESN'T SAY THAT, BUT IT IS THERE. ALL THE CANCER/CAP THEMES.

I sure hope this soul chooses reflection.  If not, I guess he'll get another chance.  

Thank you Jason so much.  I have a lot of food for thought here and it is helping begin to comprehend evolutionary stages and the difference between them and a person's inner orientation and the nature of their desires.

All the best,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 20, 2012, 05:57 AM
Hi All,

I am adding more thoughts/questions on the evolutionary state of the soul and the chart above.

Relative to this soul's past conditioning (SN of Mercury is on natal Neptune 1st house, SN in Pisces in the 6th, NN in the 12th, and the SN's of Pluto and Saturn conjunct his natal Saturn Pallas Vesta), and his comments about the changes going on in the collective occurring now via Pluto's transit in Capricorn, I wonder whether he is 3rd stage consensus or 1st stage liberated.  I'm not sure if this man consciously recalls feeling betrayed or has soul memory of his race/lineage being massacred.  It seems I need to ask him more questions.

Regarding states, my questioning above leads to more questions about Consensus vs. Individuated.  Would a consensus soul question patriarchal dominating influences or even recognize them?  I think I remember Rad saying that a consensus soul would not remember being persecuted by the patriarchy, in one of his responses to Linda's posts.

When I read the descriptions of consensus and individuated, I don't feel Guy fits into any of them.  From what I an tell, he is not self-righteous, does that eliminate 1st stage consensus? he may fit more into 2nd stage consensus, where he is not attempting to gain power in the consensus, but maintains a status quo function in society, all the while, even if unconsciously or quietly, hating it.  I believe he knows he is repressed, suppressed, but is not quite at the place of throwing it off, or being angry enough about it to change his circumstances from within, i.e., individuated state.  He has Venus squaring the nodes--does this placement of Venus express the same as Pluto being in the 2nd, frog in the well, since its squaring Pluto?

Also, doesn't Mars in opposition to all that Capricorn in the 10th/4th houses represent war, cultural war, war on the homeland?

Thank you for sharing any thoughts or input you may have.

Wendy
  


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 20, 2012, 07:55 AM
Thanks Jason.  I appreciate all your input and I hope Rad or another from the board can help me further understand or comprehend via my earlier questions.

Happy Eclipse,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 20, 2012, 07:57 AM
Hi Wendy,

I will be able to look into this on Monday. Totally exhausted at the moment.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 20, 2012, 08:39 AM
Thanks Rad.  I hope the eclipse offers deep rest.

God Bless,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 21, 2012, 08:55 AM
Hi Wendy and Jason,

First, thank you Jason for making the effort to help Wendy understand all that she is asking. And, second, relative to the question you asked about gender and what Wolf has taught about it the answer is yes.

The key, to me, to understand this Soul, and the question about his evolutionary stage of development, is to understand his prior life times that have lead to this life. All of his most recent prior lifetimes have been spent in indigenous cultures like the American Indian culture relative to the progressive take over of their homelands by another culture like the white European did to the American Indians. This Soul has been born into many American Indian tribes in which, for example, there is not written languages at all. Thus, his "alienation" to even learning written languages in the first place. Such a thing would be like a foreign object to him. The very orientation to 'reality' is fundamentally different between indigenous peoples, in this case American Indian, and Caucasian European cultures. This fundamental difference is thus the causative factor in his existing alienation from the American culture in this life because that culture, of course, has been defined by the orientation of the Caucasian white culture.

To understand, then, his evolutionary station is to understand the nature of his actual prior life lineage. All cultures, including indigenous, have they own way of understanding the nature of phenomenal reality. And the evolution of a Soul occurs no matter what the past life cultural backgrounds has been. Yet such evolution occurs in the context of such cultural orientations. For this Soul, given that most of his prior lifetimes has been spent in brown skins linked with living in the context of Nature itself, where survival itself was critically linked with being in harmony with Nature, to understand the natural laws that comprises the whole of Nature, his core alienation is thus linked with core differences between Caucasian / European culture and those indigenousness cultures that have lived close to the land, close to nature itself.   

In his recent prior lifetimes his evolutionary station, in the context of American Indian cultures, has been within the second stage consensus. In these lives his primary function within them has been one of being a warrior: the Mars / Saturn opposition. In those lives he was in fact an exceptional warrior. He was 'at home' in being in such a role, and deeply secure within it. His Soul 'problem' occurred when the Caucasian Europeans came to the Americas and progressively dominated it. Created a real genocide upon all the indigenous peoples. It is this genocidal reality created by the Europeans that his Soul has sadly had to endure. For example, he was very much involved in the 'trail of tears' for the Cherokee Nation. Thousands died. And, of course, once the various tribes were subdued and relocated to 'reservations' their entire way of life was destroyed. He no longer could be a warrior. He witnessed the extreme crisis created by the Europeans including the purposeful introduction of diseases such as what was called 'consumption": TB.  And, of course, the Europeans now called Americans also introduced alcohol to the Indian peoples.

The bottom line is that the Indian tribes were reduced to utter despair. His way of 'survival' was to try to totally shut himself off from it: the nature of his 2nd House. And to within that shutting off to keep himself as 'drugged' as possible via alcohol and other means of escape. It is his recent prior lifetimes as a warrior that thus orientated him to the motorcycle gangs, and the symbols that go with it.

God Bless, Rad



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 21, 2012, 10:18 AM
Hi Rad,

Thank you very much for sharing this information.  

I have felt that with him, as I have known him over 20 years.  We met during a Cancer/Capricorn lunar eclipse, and met again twenty years later on a Cancer/Capricorn lunar eclipse.  Neither meeting was arranged.  Both eclipses landed on our composite Cancer/Capricorn nodal axis 28 degrees.  There was an immediate recollection of living as Natives and that bond remains.

When Dances with Wolves came out we went to see it and neither one of us could move at the end of movie--I just sat there and cried.  I don't remember his response.  Now that I think about it, I don't know what he did with all that must have stirred within him.  From what I know of him, I'm sure he went home and cried.  

From a composite perspective our nodes land right on my natal Cap Moon 24.  When we first met the SN of Venus was there as well and the nodes for Saturn-Pluto were at 26-21.  

Early on he wanted to get married and I wanted to go to therapy for myself to throw off past conditioning and evolve.  He shied away from that, especially after his trusted therapist died, and he no longer attempted to process anything deep or getting tutoring to learn how to read (he can somewhat).

My question(s) are:  I feel a deep sense of responsibility to this soul, not codependency, but compassionate awareness that we have some indigenous connection, and I can see that healing on a cellular level would be good for him, but within himself he makes no attempt to walk in circles where that may become possible.  I'm not even sure he knows there are options.  Is that relative to his evolutionary state--consensus doesn't remember the patriarchal genocide, meaning they can't actually process it?

Also, I wonder if I was his (her) mother or father, teacher, lover or were we warriors together?  With your permission I can post the composite chart, please let me know if this is not appropriate.  I feel that there is something I am supposed to help with him, do?  God I feel so sad writing this.  Our natal nodes square and my Saturn is on his south node (is this a negative sign?) and my Pluto on his NN.

We have a strong attraction, but I have processed so much now and have lots of objectivity about my soul and its desires that I am not interested in pretending or emotionally bonding that doesn't incorporate conscious awareness.  The gap between those two worlds, consensus and spiritual, is big.

I so appreciate all this information, and again please let me know if this is not appropriate.

Thank you and God Bless,
Wendy

In his recent prior lifetimes his evolutionary station, in the context of American Indian cultures, has been within the second stage consensus. In these lives his primary function within them has been one of being a warrior: the Mars / Saturn opposition. In those lives he was in fact an exceptional warrior. He was 'at home' in being in such a role, and deeply secure within it. His Soul 'problem' occurred when the Caucasian Europeans came to the Americas and progressively dominated it. Created a real genocide upon all the indigenous peoples. It is this genocidal reality created by the Europeans that his Soul has sadly had to endure. For example, he was very much involved in the 'trail of tears' for the Cherokee Nation. Thousands died. And, of course, once the various tribes were subdued and relocated to 'reservations' their entire way of life was destroyed. He no longer could be a warrior. He witnessed the extreme crisis created by the Europeans including the purposeful introduction of diseases such as what was called 'consumption": TB.  And, of course, the Europeans now called Americans also introduced alcohol to the Indian peoples.

The bottom line is that the Indian tribes were reduced to utter despair. His way of 'survival' was to try to totally shut himself off from it: the nature of his 2nd House. And to within that shutting off to keep himself as 'drugged' as possible via alcohol and other means of escape. It is his recent prior lifetimes as a warrior that thus orientated him to the motorcycle gangs, and the symbols that go with it.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 22, 2012, 07:10 AM
Hi Wendy,

As you know we have a general policy on our mb of not doing personal charts. If we were to allow that, in general, that's all that we would be doing here. On the other hand, from time to time, we do allow some personal charts, as in your request, because some of our  members are active contributors such as yourself. So go ahead and post your natal chart, the synastry charts between both of you, and the composite. All of those charts would be necessary in order to answer, correctly, the questions you have.

So post those charts, and the question you have. And I would like to ask any of our members who wish to contribute in helping you through these charts to do so. I can be a great learning experience for all.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 22, 2012, 07:12 AM
Hi Dhyana,

Just want to say it's nice to see you hear again.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 22, 2012, 08:06 AM
Thanks very much Rad.  I feel I have a great deal to learn and I so appreciate this opportunity, and I truly want to resolve what is meant to be resolved in regard to these soul dynamics.  Hopefully this will facilitate healing and growth for him too.

The other thought that arose in me, relative to my Saturn on his SN is, was I part of his suppression or responsible for him in some way?  Also should I post anything about my chart, so we can explore my evolutionary state?  I have been getting lots of information about it lately?

The composite chart is interesting, Sag Moon in the 5th in a T-square with Jupiter in Pisces opposing the Sun in Virgo, along with Mars Uranus Pluto in Virgo opposite Chiron and Ceres.

I don't have Solar Fire so the SN/NN's are not showing.  

Here is the composite chart:
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/compositewg-1.gif[/img]](http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/compositewg-1.gif) (http://[IMG)

Here is Guy's chart:
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/astrochartg.gif[/img]](http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/astrochartg.gif) (http://[IMG)

And here is my chart:
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/natalwendy.gif[/img]](http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/natalwendy.gif) (http://[IMG)


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 22, 2012, 08:14 AM
Hi Wendy,

I will post later the synastry charts. If you want our member to help you with this you will need to provide more information about this relationship: it's origins in this life, the dynamics involved, how it's manifested over the years, and specifically the exact questions you have. In other words to approach this just as if you were going in to see an EA astrologer. All this provides necessary context so that our members can then orientate to these charts, and your questions in the right way. You also need to supply your own sense of your evolutionary state.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 22, 2012, 08:21 AM
here are the synastry charts .........


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 22, 2012, 09:54 AM
Hi Wendy,

I will post later the synastry charts. If you want our member to help you with this you will need to provide more information about this relationship: it's origins in this life, the dynamics involved, how it's manifested over the years, and specifically the exact questions you have. In other words to approach this just as if you were going in to see an EA astrologer. All this provides necessary context so that our members can then orientate to these charts, and your questions in the right way. You also need to supply your own sense of your evolutionary state.

God Bless, Rad

Thank you Rad for clarifying.

Origins:
I met Guy in February of 1991, when I had four months of sobriety, at an AA dance--it was a huge convention.  I had already been around the 12-step rooms for a year in Al-Anon, addressing what I knew to be my mother's imminent death (Diabetes type I complicated by drug abuse, etc.) and our painful lives together. The meeting was an instant soul recognition-attraction and a group of us danced together.  
 
Chart for initial meeting (I correctly the chart to reflect the exact time):
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/1991Dance.gif[/img]](http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/1991Dance.gif) (http://[IMG)

I had huge codependency-love addiction issues and was working extensively on them with a sponsor and was just on the outskirts of going deep into addressing traumatic family of origin issues, such as physical, emotional, sexual abuse.  Though I was still caught in the web of dependencies, I had a soul awareness of needed to move forward and I was making connections that I somehow created these scenarios in my life, but I was no where near able to cognitively accept that--memories were beginning to surface.  I had just begun to receive bodywork and the trauma was arising in my dreams and waking life.  

Guy had five years of sobriety then.  He lived one county away and he and a friend of his and me and my roommate began playing softball on an AA team, every Sunday.  From there we began to spend time together.  I aware that I understood the underlying patterns of dependency more than he do or wanted to acknowledge.  We bonded over our addictions, our familial alcohol backgrounds, and our soul memory of being Native American together.  The feeling was very Cancerian, comfortable, but overwhelming to me too (we both have Lucifer in Cancer).

He was in school learning how to read, first grade level and we would read children's books together.  I was recovering from some horrible sexual trauma and our relationship and intimacy was healing because he understood, and was so gentle and caring, but I was so used to being abused that I couldn't take the caring or any emotional pull on my system very well, plus I wanted liberation from codependency, even if it hurt like hell, while he wanted to dive into me (that's how I felt) and get all his needs met through me.  He wanted to create and family and I was sure I wasn't going to ever re-create my family of origin--I began group therapy and we starting to unravel.  

I encouraged him to begin to address his background and/or go to in-patient treatment for his childhood neglect, etc.  He didn't have the same impulse that I did to immerse into transformation.  Sometime in 1992 we stopped seeing each other.  I'm sure he was terribly hurt and I submerged myself in therapy and metaphysics.  The next year my mother died, and he got married and had a child (this situation was another recreation of his family, the wife pulled herself and the child away, and he hasn't talked to or seen his son for fifteen years).

Eighteen years went by since our parting in 1992.  Then in the summer of 2010, just before an eclipse in Cancer/Cap, I went to an art show in the county where Guy lives, and at the end of the show, on my way out the door, I saw him. He had been on my mind for several months.  He told me he had been looking for me too for four or five months to make amends about some money he hadn't paid back.  Tears began to well up in his eyes.  I was getting ready to graduate from college, was finishing my final papers, and channeling-communing with Mother Mary.  I expressed that he slow down, because I could feel that his mind and emotional body was already engaged in us being together.

The challenge or blessing for me is, I can feel the fear, and I am so sensitive I easily absorb it (weak ego-masochist) and am not able to function well when that occurs, especially as I was dealing with the loss of my roots--my house, my career, money, etc. and was doing everything I could to hold onto my core Self (2010).  Initially, we have had dinner, talked about spirituality, healing, astrology, herbs, etc. (I talked).  He said he wanted to learn, but I felt that I could not be his sole support (teacher, lover, therapist), especially since he hadn't addressed he background through therapy, getting help to further his ability to read or face his dyslexia.  It was challenging to communicate this, and we have kept in touch via telephone. There is a deep heart connection, peaceful.  We can sit in the forest together, in silence, and, I guess, remember our connection to the Earth and our past lives.  

As a Gemini NN and Mercury in the 3rd house, I want and need to communicate, as well as find my voice through writing and words.  His Mercury function is traumatized, which I understand, and on a personal soul level have frustration with in regard to being in an intimate relationship.  (There is a great deal of background about this in the previous posts).  

EVOLUTIONARY STATE:
As I continue to the comprehend and incorporate EA into my own personal understanding of my soul (evolutionary state and what it takes to evolve consciously), lately, I am getting more clarity about my own evolutionary state, which I believe is on the edge of 3rd stage individuated/1st stage spiritual.  And I am deeply aware that putting my gifts forward in the collective is primary to my soul's evolution and final bridge into the 1st stage spiritual.  The teeter-toter effect is no piece of cake.  That said, it seems to take a great deal of effort for me to comprehend the stages of other souls, or maybe it is just about integrating the understanding of the stages into my brain (ha!).  

So, if I have the awareness, which includes a humbling conscious awareness, for the 1st time, that I am not in the 1st stage spiritual, as of yet (though sometimes it feels as if I am-strong third eye consciousness), and my heart and soul long to be there, relative to the desire to return to source and the numerous acted upon desires I have had to separate, I believe I am at a turning point in my evolution, that is not just a idealized projection into the ethers.  It not, in fact, becomes an objective heart-centered determination to self-actualize, and embrace all the Piscean/Neptunian signatures of my chart, and not get lost in them.

Another first time awareness I am having (as t-nodes move across natal progressed nodes, and Venus sits on my SN dispostor) is about my NN in Gemini in the 12th house--it is about logically learning, understanding, and communicating and writing (Mercury in the 3rd) about spirituality.  Currently I am writing a research paper on Prayer and its impact on one's health and wellness, and I feel as if I am having cosmic downloads constantly! and that I have finally found home.  

I also found a software program, very inexpensive, to organize the books I have been working on for years.  It seems all the musing and brainpower I have put to paper, is on its way into reality, structured reality.  With so much Neptune influence, I feel like I have been swimming in the oceans of bliss and Mercurian impulses and inspirations forever, attempting to 1-be ready to be exposed, 2-to understand my skipped step more fully, 3-organize the huge amount of thoughts I have.

I am writing all of this to share the complex and complicating process of integrating a grand cross with skipped steps, Pluto and the nodes, and to ask a few clarifying questions regarding evolutionary states.

First I realize the evolutionary state cannot be determined just from the chart, that said, I'm wondering if this can be answered without one.  For a soul with a tight Uranus-Pluto in Virgo w/Saturn opposition, and Saturn is a skipped step in the 10th, can it be said that the Soul (Pluto) seeks liberation (Uranus) from consensus conditioning and both internal and external limitations, while also needing to integrate back into society, liberated, self-actualized and responsible to culture and self, to thus move off the teeter-toter and into the next state (1st stage spiritual)?


QUESTIONS:
The whole reason I continue to bring him up on this forum/thread, is because (why?--maybe a pull back to caretaking, wanting that and being that?) do I continue to feel a pull towards him (Mars in Libra-Pluto 4th house) even though, it seems clear that we are not meant to be together, and I feel that there is something that I can (am meant to) help him with, or do something to support him, without being enmeshed.  Currently, transiting Saturn is right on my Mars, squaring natal Moon and the SN of Saturn, so I feel I am attempting to resolve this relationship and soul dynamic, past and present.

What is the connection that we have from the past?  Were we siblings (Mercury), did I do something to impair his ability to communicate (Virgo-guilt)?  This question arises out of my Saturn in Pisces and his SN.

There are other questions I posted in previous posts.  I can bring them forward later tonight.  Also I plan to analyze the synastry chart and share what I learn them too.  The themes that stand out for me now are:

Our natal Jupiter's are in opposition, square our composite Jupiter in Pisces, composite Venus sits on my Mars and his Sun, and the SN of my Mercury is on my natal Uranus and his NN, plus my Moon on our composite SN.

MORE QUESTIONS:
Was I Guy's mother in the past?  The more I consider this the more likely it feels, and in respect to my chart, natal Mars Libra in the 5th square Cap Moon in the 8th (death of children), SN Mars on cusp of 5th house of children, Uranus Pluto Venus 4th house.  I say mother because of the moon 4th house symbology, and Neptune in the 5th square the Sun in my natal chart.   I believe we lived as Natives together and early on in my own recovery I attempted to learn to speak in native tongue.

Thanks again Rad and everyone.

God Bless,
Wendy





Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 23, 2012, 04:20 AM
Hi Everyone,

I realize I have posted a huge amount of information, which may have been too much?  Either way, I will attempt to be succinct and clear in my posts.  If it is best to eliminate some of it, let me know.  Also, if making the charts small in size helps, I can attempt to do that as well.

I thought I should further clarify my evolutionary state, since what I posted previously may not have revealed the core of it.  My assessment is that I am in 1st stage spiritual, though due to the desire to know God-return and the desire to separate, I question my assessment and then feel I am 3rd stage individuated, but my nature is more intrinsic to expand into being with God'dess, nature, and channel, be of service and analyze/discern (Virgo), but that is also relative to my nodal axis and Pisces infused chart. So, I'm not always sure and I appreciate perspectives.  My work generally is with animals, as a communicator, wellness consultant, pet-sitting and I do some astrology counseling.  I practiced bodywork and healing for many years, but have pulled away from that for some time now.  

I was born at Holy Cross hospital (no joke!) and was raised Caucasian, in a middle class neighborhood, with my parents and two sisters.  The neighborhood sat at the base of the Church of St. Mary Magdalene, the sister church of the very church we went too, Grace Episcopal.  There was no enforced dogma from my family, and grandmother's belief in God fostered my trust in God.  My early life with filled with Nature, where I spent a great deal of time communing with trees, etc. and I had the desire to know God.  I had psychic visitations of Jesus and Mary before my first Saturn square.  I know I lived during the time of Jesus and have a deep connection to the feminine.

There was abuse early, which further escalated in my very early adolescence, at which time my addictions to drugs kicked in.  Initially I had visions of my past lives, upon my first use of opium at age eleven, where I saw myself as a young native male on a rite-of-passage with an elder in the Black Hills.  Eventually I shut down and post traumatic stress took over my life for the next twenty-five to thirty years.  

When I got sober and began receiving bodywork, my spiritual and intuitive visions came back and have been with me since, though the PTSD began again six years ago, which blocks merging-union with God, but is now subsiding.  It took a huge amount of effort/work to recover and heal.  I emerged myself in spiritual, emotional, physical and psychological alternatives, including shamanic soul retrievals, meditation, bodywork, etc.  For much of my life, I was enraged at society, government, etc., which seems more like individuated state and the last twenty-three years have been conscious desire to be with God and separate as well.  

Hopefully this is clearer.

Thanks,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 23, 2012, 07:24 AM
Hi Wendy,

Thanks for posting the relevant information. I would like to encourage any of our members to try to help Wendy answer her questions using your EA skills to do so. This can be another great opportunity for all of us to learn. Remember THE VALUE IS IN THE EFFORT. So Wendy let's give your request a few days in order for others to try to help.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 23, 2012, 10:00 AM
Yes, I understand and also realize everyone has full lives and maybe integrating the eclipse as well.

Thank you.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 23, 2012, 07:04 PM
Hi Wendy and Rad,

I am following this and interested.  I have to move at the end of the month so may not have time to post, but will be following.  Will see if/what I can do....

Thanks for this opportunity, Wendy.  I hope your questions are answered to your satisfaction.  And thank you for being so open...

Peace/harmony,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 23, 2012, 08:56 PM
Thanks Elen.  I hope your move goes well.

I have been writing an analysis of the charts all day today and hope to post them soon.

Peace out (giggle),
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 24, 2012, 09:21 AM
Hi Everyone,

I thought I should further clarify my evolutionary state, since what I posted previously may not have revealed the core of it.  My assessment is that I am in 1st stage spiritual, though due to the desire to know God-return and the desire to separate, I question my assessment and then feel I am 3rd stage individuated, but my nature is more intrinsic to expand into being with God'dess, nature, and channel, be of service and analyze/discern (Virgo), but that is also relative to my nodal axis and Pisces infused chart. So, I'm not always sure and I appreciate perspectives. 

I have been reading and really absorbing the Pluto Books and feel I need to change my perspective of my evolutionary state, while at the same time I am confused.  After reading in Pluto II--what I resonate with the most is 2nd stage individuated, and also resonate with 1st stage Spiritual, though I am not following any one specific spiritual teacher or system, but am highly aware of transcendental reality and the Soul with the desire to be of service to the whole.

Pluto II:
2nd stage individuated--'core feeling of anger at the system'' or core feeling of pessimism or futility that does not permit the individual to integrate in any way into the consensus based society', and a desire to destroy either themselves, the system, or both. (I can relate to this)
CHALLENGE-to learn to integrate its individuality, in fact, within the consensus society in order to advance it...that if they do attempt to integrate within the consensus their individuality will be lost.  (I feel this too)  Once individual realizes that this fear is only a fear--their individuality cannot be lost, and that the 'value is in the effort," then they will evolve to the third stage.
THIRD STAGE-Geniuses of their time, inventors, innovators who manifest a vision, break new ground, transform nature of consensus reality.  These people are utterly secure within themselves...being to embrace the transcendent perceptions of Ultimate or Timeless reality.  Thus they are not attached to the outcome of their efforts.  They make the effort for the effort's sakes.. (I

SPIRITUAL-1st stage: absolute openness to the relativity of all spiritual teachings...utterly defined by the teachings of their spiritual system of choice...very center of gravity within consciousness will progressively shift from the ego to the Soul.
1st Stage:  psychological dynamic of humility (virgo)...ego aware of universal, transcendent reality...ego is but a speck of sand...individuals become become spiritual seekers of a devotional nature who seek various spiritual teachers and teachings through which to define their inner and outer reality...many have active desire to be of service to a larger whole, and will orientate to forms of work that directly benefit other people.

Are there clarifying questions I can ask myself and others to discern the different stages, aside from what is in the Pluto books?

gratefully,
Wendy




Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 24, 2012, 06:44 PM
Hi Wendy,

I can't remember if you were involved in this, but a while back we looked at an example of myself and another to see if we could ferret out the stages and begin to understand the subtleties involved in this.  It's a lot to read, but if you haven't, it could be worth it.  Somehow the process helped to get more of a sense of this.  I can hunt for those links if you think this would be helpful for you.  Also, the "checking my understanding of the evolutionary stages" link that Upasika posted a comment on recently was also helpful for me, once Steve got involved in particular.

I can think of one person in particular that I know who I feel is 2nd Individuated.  The way I experience him is that his focus is squarely on the Consensus.  He is using the Consensus as the measure against which he is defining and distinguishing himself as different.  He is looking back to what he doesn't want to be.  And he has been actively rebellious in his life with regard to causes he has aligned with.  I would say that his orientation is not one of introspection, but of external battle - fighting outside himself what he does not want to be.  I do not know if this is characteristic of 2nd Ind, but this person is extremely skeptical of the spiritual and psychic worlds.  Perhaps he does not yet understand the difference between religious and spiritual reality and so lumps it all together.  This person is well-liked by others, yet one senses a deep level of alienation.  What is interesting to me is that this person, as far as I am able to tell, does not question this inner sense of alienation.  It is as though the inner relationship simply isn't yet developed to really register it in a conscious way.  At the same time, it seems possible to me that, since his Soul is 2nd Ind (IF it is, as I believe), there wouldn't be the evolutionary necessity to reflect on this; rather the evolutionary necessity is instead to establish and affirm for itself its differentness.  Again, the focus is still external to oneself.  Once this is established, perhaps, some inner resources are freed up to begin looking more inwardly.

I don't know if what I've written is correct with regard to 2nd Ind, but I thought I would share my thoughts as part of the process.  I know that Rad (and perhaps others) will step in and correct any errors in understanding.

Peace,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 24, 2012, 07:14 PM
Thanks Elen that is very helpful.  I would like to read through the thread you mentioned, so I'll look for it.

peace,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 24, 2012, 07:49 PM
Hi Wendy,

These are interesting questions you're looking at! And I'd love to work thoroughly with you on them as I think the evolutionary stages/substages are complex and I also want to learn more about their subtleties, so important. But healthwise I can only do things in small bursts though, and this may be the only burst, but here are a few thoughts...

Also I started writing this before Elen posted, and now she has. As Elen says, she has certainly been through this process - we had a lot of fun helping her, it was really interesting.
Elen: quite agree about what you're saying about 2nd individual - very spot on to me.

Anyway, I'll still post this now, even though it replicates what Elen has said about 2nd indiv...

My understanding is there are two main core indicators of evolutionary stage.
(If my comments below are out of whack hopefully someone will point that out, in fact I ask you to please do so, as I want to develop my understanding of this as accurately as possible)

1. Where a soul's desires have evolved to.
2. The awareness a soul has attained to.

2nd individual...
The overiding characteristic is the repulsion for the consensus, which leads to everything else, the anger etc.
It's me (and others like me) versus THE CONSENSUS
Rebellion => leads to deep questioning.
The isolation also induces the shadow awareness, that I'm really SEPARATE, and deep down/way down, that bothers me big time.  I won't admit that though, it's my inner secret, and I have no idea what to do about it either - it's in the "too hard" basket. Can't be bothered about it. But in my darker moments it haunts me. I crave and love being different, but why should I have to be separate just to be myself. More anger. Its THEIR FAULT.
But at least I'm me, that's more than I can say for everyone else that has sold their soul to the machine, the system, the evil ones, the phony ones, and the braindead that follow them...
They can all get f....d.

Great. I'm being myself. Nothing better in the world than that. I'm free too, no-one's going to tell me what to do. The whole world is mine.
And I have cool friends. You know, people with guts, people who are sane. Say what they think. Not the bullshit all the sheep baa baa with.
And we know we are onto it. We can feel it, we live it. So don't tell us what to do. I'm not alone anymore.

<many lifetimes later>
Great... well sort of. Except actually we live in a cave. The whole world isn't mine, it's owned by all these "other" people. And they are pretty stupid.
Maybe I could do better than them. What - you mean join them? Get out of here, NO WAY!

<many lifetimes later> ...but I could do better than them... NO WAY!
<many lifetimes later> ...but I could do better than them... WHO CARES!   ....well I do, but NO WAY!
<some more lifetimes later> ...DAMMIT. I can do better than them, and I maybe I will join them. Don't know how, but I'll find a way, cos I got to.
<a few lifetimes later> ...what happened ??? ... have I joined them? Can't be! Shit .. I have. How'd that happen? Oh well, aint so bad. Hmm... this is different. Feels lighter. I can do things now I never could before.
It's a whole new world.
Great.

3rd individual...
Is the stage where the individuality must flower. It's been a long time coming, as breaking out of consensus is the hardest thing to do, then one must find one's individuality in isolation (2nd indiv), which is a long (and at times lonely) road. But we are all part of humanity, so once the individual has arisen it must reconnect to the world at large, to be part of the whole again, and to see it's individuality within the whole again - then the individuality has a real meaning, significance.

Part of being an individual is to identify one's uniqueness. For many that means entering suitable therapy that fits with the person, to clear away the conditioning, the debris, the trauma, the blocks to awareness of oneself and others. Often this starts in earnest in the 2nd indiv stage, and interest in the soul and the spiritual can become seeded here also. But otherwise it takes off in 3rd individual.

And in the 3rd we must fully activate the creative expression of that uniqueness. It's the ability to be creative with our innate and unique attributes, gifts, talents, nature that brings the individual to a culmination within. I'm not sure if it's correct EA, but I liken the 3rd individ stage to Leo - creative self expression. To get to that point one must know oneself very well. Not just superficially, but relatively deeply. And to express that, in one's vocation, work, relationships, in one's life.

So 3rd individal questions:
Do you ...
a) have a desire to really shine in what you do. To be, as much as possible, the very best that you can at what you do
b) want to take your unique offerings to the community/country/world
c) feel responsible about the problems of the world, feel you can make a difference
d) really want to help others with what you do?
e) feel you cannot reach your true potential unless you do your best to leave the world a better place in a tangibly recognisable way, no matter how small that may be?
Do you....?

The interesting thing is that all these actions are also relevant for 1st spiritual too. With a core difference of emphasis, and that is what I meant by the last one - "Do you...?"

In 3rd indiv the emphasis is on one's uniquesness, celebrating it. It's a positive expression of the self. It's about feeling great about oneself. It's about ... oneself. Without shame, without excuse, without reason - just cos it feels natural and good to be who you are. You want to really enjoy that, maximise it. And why not? Each of us is a unique expression of the whole - that certainly is worth celebrating. And the feeling is the world is the place to express it, where generally speaking there is no limit now to that creative expression, and there is a need to further develop and fulfill through this. And there is no concern about it's relevance - we are all unique, so whatever we express now has to be relevant in a sense - no-one else can give what we have to give. There is no problem in being different now, it's ours to use as we like, the fear has been replaced with a desire to re-integrate with the world around us.

All this is well and good. Except for one thing - and that is the inherent limitation built into individuality itself. The awareness a 3rd individ accumulates of themself inevitably gives rise, through interaction with the world, to another awareness - that of the bigger whole itself. And there is the catch - with that new awareness the significance of one's individuality starts to diminish. And questions arise as to who one thought one was, because the individual (wave) can be seen more clearly as part of the whole (ocean)... The cusp is reached and once again core desires start to change.  

The new desires that emerge are based now in doubt. Am I really who I thought I was? Or more to the point, who really is this "I" that I am? And who are all these other "I"s, these other souls? Have I been living an illusion - that I am significant at all?

Now, all this hard earned individuality starts to seem somehow limiting, not the full picture, deficient, missing something vital, something essential. These questions may have arisen in 2nd individ stage and then the individuality becoming uncovered and developed seemed to be the living answer. But now that answer starts to look increasingly suspect, even maybe false. Deep doubts arise... and the very ego itself is under threat.

1st Spiritual questions:
Do you ...
a) value the synergy of a group effort more than a solo effort in doing things? ... are sick of feeling different
b) feel more and more aware  of being separate, but paradoxiacally at the same time desperately want to feel part of, merged with everything - are hungry for it
c) want to serve everyone you're involved with, but feel that what you have to offer may not be enough? .... will never be enough
d) feel nothing seems certain anymore; and confidence seems low, or feels like it's completely gone sometimes
e) grapple with your sense of yourself - deep down it's become an unknown (again), all you know for sure is "I" is less solid than it was, but then who really am I?
f) feel deeply attracted to certain souls who you sense are Realised - whether it's simply an inner recognition, or also involves a change of lifestyle to incorporate their teachings/essence
g) feel relieved whenever you connect with your trust - that you aren't really responsible for what happens anymore - Source is - so you can let go now ... and be free.

Just some thoughts, based on my understanding of these stages, and how one stage changes and becomes the next - this is a summary and not the whole picture by far. And please anyone, correct me where I could be wrong.

Not such small burst, and that stretched it for me. But like you I'm also trying to nail down my own stage with more precision, certainty, very similar questioning to your own. All the Picses, 12th, Neptune stuff confuses the stage sometimes I find (I have the same dilemna).  But you don't seem like 2nd individuated to me Wendy. It'd be interesting what anyone else has to say on your stage etc too.

blessings
Upasika


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on May 24, 2012, 10:58 PM
Hi Upasika,

Wow - that was great!  I agree completely with what you've written.  

In the past, I tried to gauge the evolutionary condition of my "personality," and found that it could be categorized under ALL THREE of the states outlined above!  I had to dig deeper and deeper, peel more and more layers off, in order to reveal the evolutionary condition of the Soul.  I found that the deepest underlying desire has always been to know God/Goddess and that desire permeates the whole life.  Once this realization of my evolutionary condition became established there took place an anchoring in trust and faith.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute while you recuperate. 



Hi Wendy,

Information that I've collected from the messageboard is that the inherent nature/construction of the Soul is created by God/Goddess.  The nature of the Soul cannot change;  it is immutable from life to life.  

To determine the evolutionary state of the Soul, we look at the nature of the Soul, and not the personality which is just an expression of the Soul.  Steve once said that we can get "clues" to the nature of the Soul from Pluto and the SN of Pluto (house, sign, aspects).  

I do intend to look at the charts posted above (you and Guy), but will need more time (just like we had in the Practice Charts threads).

I hope the above can help you gauge your evolutionary condition Wendy.  

Peace and blessings,

Linda


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: ari moshe on May 25, 2012, 06:42 AM
Quote
In the past, I tried to gauge the evolutionary condition of my "personality," and found that it could be categorized under ALL THREE of the states outlined above!  I had to dig deeper and deeper, peel more and more layers off, in order to reveal the evolutionary condition of the Soul.

Linda, I think that's such a key statement. Just wanted to acknowledge that. Looking at the level of personality and emotional states (such as anger at the consensus - which we know can exist in the spiritual state) is where I've noticed a lot of folks get confused.
Love, am


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 25, 2012, 07:21 AM
Hi Upasika,

Gosh it's great that you have the energy to contribute like this. Just great. And what you have shared about your own understanding of the EA states is great as well.

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Kristin on May 25, 2012, 08:50 AM
Hi Wendy,

i am working on a post for your synastry but wanted to offer some thoughts here on the confusion of stages..

Hi everyone,

It can also appear at times as if some souls are advancing stages within one life, although that is not possible as this is typically a slow transition...love how Upsaika put this here.

<many lifetimes later> ...but I could do better than them... NO WAY!
<many lifetimes later> ...but I could do better than them... WHO CARES!   ....well I do, but NO WAY!
<some more lifetimes later> ...DAMMIT. I can do better than them, and I maybe I will join them. Don't know how, but I'll find a way, cos I got to.
<a few lifetimes later> ...what happened Huh ... have I joined them? Can't be! Shit ..


The point being it takes a long time.

But let’s say someone was born through consensus parents and the entire early life was about having this inner feeling of ‘how the bleep did I get here in this family? A feeling of being limited or trapped (Capricorn) yet also hiding in the process (Pisces), not wanting to stand out or for any attention to be drawn their way. So they make consensus choices just to fit it in, not to draw attention, perhaps because of lifetimes of persecution for being different when things got so bad the inner instinct was simply to survive this time. So underneath all of this , the Soul itself is not consensus at all. So why did they choose these parents? Of course we pick up where we left off and there may have been residual themes that needed to be worked out but in this case it would also land under the banner, “It takes an extreme to counteract an extreme.” Things have to look or feel so counter to who they are at times in order to shake them awake or to make things so inwardly uncomfortable they they have no other choice but to return. It will take certain big turns and transits in a life, for example the 1st Saturn return, Pluto trends, Uranus opposition when the pain of hiding becomes greater than the fear, or the desire to return becomes greater than the fear of being seen. At some point nothing becomes more important than living naturally in the world. It becomes an unconscious form of suffering that literally transfers into the feeling of carrying the weight of the world on one's shoulders.

Jeffrey used to say, “Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to repress your nature or how much energy it takes to repress what is natural?" At some point something has got to give and it all busts loose. Anyone who has heavy Capricorn in the chart will feel firsthand the truth of this.

I  also remember Jeffrey used to ask the group, “Tell me, how many out there are willing to die for what you believe in?' You would here this resounding YES from the group or hands raising. Yet when it comes down to it, when the old traumas get triggered, it is not so easy to go to the front line for a cause or to stand in the throws of individuality when the arrows start flying. However when these hard turns and transits kick in, it can be as if the Soul starts unwrapping itself,  peeling layers back as has been mentioned and slowly the Soul emerges at times rapidly and progressively finds its way back to its original station, reaching the lead point of where it was perhaps in another time before the persecution. So they may spend early years appearing consensus, or maybe you are counseling someone who is living the consensus life but is dying to be free and then your role is in helping them REMEMBER WHO THEY ARE. (I see these closet eccentrics a lot in my practice). As they continue to make bold or courageous choices it can look as if they moved from the consensus to the 1st stage Individuated in a blink and if they are really going for it maybe all of a sudden their choices reflect a 3rd stage individuated reality ( Not 2nd stage in this case because that stages if I am understanding this correctly, come out of the womb rebellious and would never conform at any point for any reason)

The Soul may even actually naturally be in the Spiritual State yet lived a consensus life well into their 20's or 30's but then begin a fierce pursuit to de-condition. So it is easy how these stages and states can cause confusion. It may not be clear until someone is on the other side of some ongoing Pluto trends when the true place and state is revealed.

What is a clear marker for 1st stage Spiritual as Linda mentioned. She writes,  “I found that the deepest underlying desire has always been to know God/Goddess and that desire permeates the whole life.”

At the end of the day it is important to also remember that it is not a race! And the more evolved Souls will ultimately always have a role in helping those further back on the path, as in Wendy's desire to help Guy.

Peace,
Kristin


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Gonzalo on May 25, 2012, 09:39 AM
Hi Wendy

I would want to say that the evolutionary condition is a condition of the Soul, not the ego. What point in the expansion consciousness the Soul has reached, which may be different, because of patriarchal reality we're in and how it has impacted in our Soul, from the reality we experience 'normally' or most time. For this reason, I think .... that sometimes the true level of consciousness or the evolutionary condition of the Soul will be inwardly revealed through the nature of specific experiences such as altered state of consciousness, ie. unusual meditative states or dreams. Unusual meditative states or dreams that the Soul simply would not have if it had not reached at some point that level of awareness existing within such experience. Even if later we go back to the conditioned reality defined by the ego.

God Bless,
Gonzalo 


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 25, 2012, 01:21 PM
Dear Upasika,

This is fantastic~thank you very much for sharing your burst of energy with us.  I appreciate your efforts and desire to learn more too.  Everything you wrote speaks to the deep questions I have about all of this, and definitely helps me clarify the stages further.

2nd individual...
The overiding characteristic is the repulsion for the consensus, which leads to everything else, the anger etc.
It's me (and others like me) versus THE CONSENSUS
Rebellion => leads to deep questioning.
<many lifetimes later>
Great... well sort of. Except actually we live in a cave. The whole world isn't mine, it's owned by all these "other" people. And they are pretty stupid.
Maybe I could do better than them. What - you mean join them? Get out of here, NO WAY!

<many lifetimes later> ...but I could do better than them... NO WAY!
<many lifetimes later> ...but I could do better than them... WHO CARES!   ....well I do, but NO WAY!
<some more lifetimes later> ...DAMMIT. I can do better than them, and I maybe I will join them. Don't know how, but I'll find a way, cos I got to.
<a few lifetimes later> ...what happened ??? ... have I joined them? Can't be! Shit .. I have. How'd that happen? Oh well, aint so bad. Hmm... this is different. Feels lighter. I can do things now I never could before.
It's a whole new world.
Great.

I can relate to a great deal of the above, but mostly early on and especially during SATURN OPPOSITION (maybe because of past life memories), so I wonder if a soul with skipped step planet, say Saturn, or planets that are geared towards individuation or creative actualization within a chart of 3rd stage IND and/or 1st SPIRITUAL, would have those feelings at different times based on transits, life experiences/crises?  

I most definitely relate to 3rd stage individuated, NN Gemini-Mercury in Leo/Sun Leo, and felt for much of my life that I had a great deal of creativity to share with the world, to somehow make a difference.  Once my soul and spirit arose and my consciousness deepened, I began to question any contribution I may have...does the world really need this? I don't need any recognition for making a contribution...maybe this desire 'publishing book to affect the collective' is a meaningless desire and I should just concentrate on my relationship with spirit (this is where I go back and forth), although now I am very clear that what is coming through me will be shared, how is another question).  

I feel that if I don't follow through with offering a contribution, a beautiful, creative and deeply spiritual contribution that I will have to do this all over again, and why, why should I back to do this part, if I can do it now--because I doubt? myself, the worth of what I'm writing, etc.  That said, I have extensive Virgo/Pisces, signature of a weak ego, so of course, I am questioning, doubting, but that Virgo is in square to 12th house planets, plus my Leo planets are imbued with Neptune, which all lead back to Spirit--creative self-actualization within the house of Spirit, to develop, birth an refined ego?  This part confuses me.  Can a 1st stage spiritual soul have the need to develop an ego?  

If a soul is 1st stage spiritual, is it possible that they are also creative, and have a soul need/desire to produce something of significance for the collective, to touch lives that may be seeking just what I have to offer?  I feel that I am beginning to understand this more.  Yes I have something to contribute, but it is not really me, it is for the whole, while at the same time, it has birthed forth from my relationship to soul and spirit, and my own rising up to flower within a spiritual context, spiritual love.

It seems I am on the edge of these two stages.  I believe that has been written about before on the forum, and haven't found it yet.  I am going to look tonight.


3rd individual...
And in the 3rd we must fully activate the creative expression of that uniqueness. It's the ability to be creative with our innate and unique attributes, gifts, talents, nature that brings the individual to a culmination within. I'm not sure if it's correct EA, but I liken the 3rd individ stage to Leo - creative self expression. To get to that point one must know oneself very well. Not just superficially, but relatively deeply. And to express that, in one's vocation, work, relationships, in one's life.

In 3rd indiv the emphasis is on one's uniquesness, celebrating it. It's a positive expression of the self. It's about feeling great about oneself. It's about ... oneself. Without shame, without excuse, without reason - just cos it feels natural and good to be who you are. You want to really enjoy that, maximise it. And why not? Each of us is a unique expression of the whole - that certainly is worth celebrating. And the feeling is the world is the place to express it, where generally speaking there is no limit now to that creative expression, and there is a need to further develop and fulfill through this. And there is no concern about it's relevance - we are all unique, so whatever we express now has to be relevant in a sense - no-one else can give what we have to give. There is no problem in being different now, it's ours to use as we like, the fear has been replaced with a desire to re-integrate with the world around us.

I RELATE TO THE ABOVE IN BOLD, BUT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT ITS RELEVANCE, TO PRODUCE JUST TO PRODUCE DOESN'T FEEL GOOD.

All this is well and good. Except for one thing - and that is the inherent limitation built into individuality itself. The awareness a 3rd individ accumulates of themself inevitably gives rise, through interaction with the world, to another awareness - that of the bigger whole itself. And there is the catch - with that new awareness the significance of one's individuality starts to diminish. And questions arise as to who one thought one was, because the individual (wave) can be seen more clearly as part of the whole (ocean)... The cusp is reached and once again core desires start to change.  

I CAN REALLY RELATE TO THIS TOO--SOME FOLKS HAVE THOUGHT THAT I WAS SABOTAGING MYSELF BY NOT CHOOSING TO SHINE FULLY, BUT IN REFLECTION FROM READING THIS, I CAN SEE I WAS ATTEMPTING TO STAY TRUE TO MY SOUL'S DESIRE.

Thanks again, this is helpful.

God bless,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 25, 2012, 01:45 PM
Hi Kristin,

Hi Wendy,

i am working on a post for your synastry but wanted to offer some thoughts here on the confusion of stages..
THANKS KRISTIN--I APPRECIATE THAT.  I AM FINISHING A RESEARCH PAPER AND HOPE TO POST, THIS WEEKEND, WHAT I HAVE COME UP WITH TOO.

...A feeling of being limited or trapped (Capricorn) yet also hiding in the process (Pisces), not wanting to stand out or for any attention to be drawn their way....when the pain of hiding becomes greater than the fear, or the desire to return becomes greater than the fear of being seen.
THIS IS VERY TRUE FOR ME--SATURN IN PISCES 10TH HOUSE, MC PISCES INCONJUNCT LEO--WANT TO SHARE CREATIVE CONTRIBUTION, BUT HAVEN'T WANTED TO BE SEEN, yet an inward ego desire to shine--very confusing.  I believe that is relative to my entire chart though.

At the end of the day it is important to also remember that it is not a race! And the more evolved Souls will ultimately always have a role in helping those further back on the path, as in Wendy's desire to help Guy.

Peace,
Kristin

Thank you all so much, I am sitting here with immense relief welling up in my heart and soul, literally crying, with all this love here pouring through and out from this forum.  I feel as if I have come home from a long lost journey, that all this mutable confusion is finally moving, within an ocean of understanding and not being isolated from it, and found a way to come out, in the right context, in a whole way.  Thank you all so much.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 25, 2012, 01:57 PM
Hi Gonzalo,

Hi Wendy

I would want to say that the evolutionary condition is a condition of the Soul, not the ego. What point in the expansion consciousness the Soul has reached, which may be different, because of patriarchal reality we're in and how it has impacted in our Soul, from the reality we experience 'normally' or most time. For this reason, I think .... that sometimes the true level of consciousness or the evolutionary condition of the Soul will be inwardly revealed through the nature of specific experiences such as altered state of consciousness, ie. unusual meditative states or dreams. Unusual meditative states or dreams that the Soul simply would not have if it had not reached at some point that level of awareness existing within such experience. Even if later we go back to the conditioned reality defined by the ego.

God Bless,
Gonzalo 

This really helps dispel my confusion, as my thirties and early forties were in complete immersion with Spirit--meditation, healing, healing dreams, astral traveling, communicating with the deceased, altered states of consciousness as you said, and the last five years have been quite different due to life circumstances--a set-back due to separating desires and another influence that I feel was evil in nature.

This helps me really know that those aspects of my soul are not gone, just because I have not been able to expand into them as fully as I desire.  They are with me all the time, just requires more concerted effort at times.

Thanks again and Blessed Be,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 25, 2012, 02:01 PM
Hi Linda,

Hi Wendy,

Information that I've collected from the messageboard is that the inherent nature/construction of the Soul is created by God/Goddess.  The nature of the Soul cannot change;  it is immutable from life to life.  

To determine the evolutionary state of the Soul, we look at the nature of the Soul, and not the personality which is just an expression of the Soul.  Steve once said that we can get "clues" to the nature of the Soul from Pluto and the SN of Pluto (house, sign, aspects).  

I do intend to look at the charts posted above (you and Guy), but will need more time (just like we had in the Practice Charts threads).

I hope the above can help you gauge your evolutionary condition Wendy.  

Peace and blessings,

Linda


Thanks for this.  My cup is full--taking it all in.

I guess deep down I have known I am in 1st stage spiritual, but in this patriarchal construct and all the grand cross elements I am attempting to integrate, its has been easy to get confused.

with much love,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 25, 2012, 04:24 PM
Wow, what a great thread!  Still reading through everyone.

Upasika, what you wrote was SO GREAT!!!


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 25, 2012, 04:57 PM
Hi Wendy,

I did up an analysis of the 1st chart thinking it was yours and posted it, but then in reading through all the posts realized it was the composite chart not your chart, so I removed my post.  I'm so sorry I got that wrong.  But good lesson for me - synastry work is not something I have much practice in...  I do have to focus on packing and moving now, but if I can find some time and space, will post what I come up with.  But I think you will receive what you need from the others here...

Peace,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 25, 2012, 05:46 PM
Hi Wendy,

Thanks again for this great topic.

You wrote:  "Can a 1st stage spiritual soul have the need to develop an ego?"

Others will be able to answer this better than I can, but in the DVD course, I recall JWG making the point that even Jesus had an ego - enlightened people have egos.  In my understanding, the question isn't, does an ego need to develop, but to whom is the ego in service?  I also feel quite strongly, and this coming out of my own journey at this time, that part of the "success" of the patriarchy has been the obstruction of the healthy development of ego.  If a healthy ego were not necessary to develop, why would the Soul bother to manifest it?  The ego is the individualized aspect of the Soul and can be said to "serve" the Soul's purpose.  If it is weak/undeveloped, it seems to me that the Soul's intentions can't ever really be realized.  And this, in turn, would mean that the intention of Source could also not be realized.  I get the sense, also, with regard to my own journey, that an undeveloped ego can be mistaken for humility.  An undeveloped ego is not in fact humility, it is victim-hood.  Again, it's not the development or existence of an ego that is the question, but to whom or what is the ego oriented or in service to.

My thoughts on this, anyway.  Others will correct any errors........

Peace,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 25, 2012, 06:32 PM
Elen,

I think what you are saying here is really accurate! I totally agree.

And good luck with your moving.

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 25, 2012, 06:43 PM
Hi Wendy,

Linda, Rad, Elen, Kristin ... thanks for your appreciation. This topic is close to my heart. And I'm getting so much from everyone else's posts here too - so much. Thanks to everyone - I'm working on my own understanding in parallel to Wendy.

Wendy, here is what stands out for me in what everyone has said so far...

******

Elen
(2nd indiv) ... rather the evolutionary necessity is instead to establish and affirm for itself its differentness.
Speaks for itself really

Linda
I had to dig deeper and deeper, peel more and more layers off, in order to reveal the evolutionary condition of the Soul I found that the deepest underlying desire...
To me, this is the key. It's the core desires that reveal our evolutionary stage, and it's deep inside us that those core desires lie.

Ari
...such as anger at the consensus - which we know can exist in the spiritual state
I'd say we can all relate that anger is a natural human emotion. But the anger of 2nd indiv is not your normal garden variety of anger - it consumes the whole person and their life, in a way they are anger, and that is the lava that fuels their defiance

Kristin
So they make consensus choices just to fit it in, not to draw attention, perhaps because of lifetimes of persecution for being different when things got so bad the inner instinct was simply to survive this time. So underneath all of this , the Soul itself is not consensus at all
This seems a really hard situation to grasp - everything outer indicates we are in a certain stage, and inside we don't even realise it, because we are on automatic pilot (the inner instinct was simply to survive). But I think there will always be the feeling of not fitting in, even in these situations, and this is a potent clue.  

... (but) there may have been residual themes that needed to be worked out
For example - skipped steps, karmic ties, or sometimes genuine ambilavence within the core desires

Things have to look or feel so counter to who they are at times in order to shake them awake or to make things so inwardly uncomfortable they they have no other choice but to return.
I have a feeling that souls possibly manifest these situations if they are near the end of stage, in a cusp, or in the beginning of a stage. Choosing a life situation that results in a shock to the soul - either through that inward uncomfortableness, or through a direct shock itself, to make the reality of it's evolutionary stage clearer, so better choices can start to be made, and progress can proceed more directly (this feeling of mine needs confirming by others though...)

...(2nd indiv) come out of the womb rebellious and would never conform at any point for any reason
Yet again, probably rules you out of 2nd indiv Wendy, unless you feel that truly applies to you?? - did you have non conformity in your life from day 1?

Wendy
(Upasika - 3rd Indiv ... to fully activate the creative expression of that uniqueness. And there is no concern about it's relevance - we are all unique, so whatever we express now has to be relevant in a sense - no-one else can give what we have to give)
I RELATE TO THE ABOVE, BUT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT ITS RELEVANCE, TO PRODUCE JUST TO PRODUCE DOESN'T FEEL GOOD.
As I understand it, 3rd individual needs to express itself for many reasons, some of which are not necessarily just for an objectifiable result (that is more consensus type material-based thinking). In many ways sure - a 3rd individual person has a clear external measurable purpose and reason for doing what they do in the world, it needs to interact with others, and provide some tangible benefit or improvement to the world, the status quo. But sometimes it is just doing what they love to do, feel drawn to do and have a passion for it - e.g. a potter or a musician just loves their unique expressions through that medium. They may only just pay the bills, but getting rich isn't the point, expressing their uniqueness in a creative and uncompromised way is. Because it allows them to fully express their innate talents and fully develop their uniqueness through that, bring it to a flowering. This is soul growth for them, and necessary as part of their 3rd individual journey. Yet by all external counts these actions may not seem very relevant to other people, maybe even irrelevant. The relevance will be unique for each different 3rd individual person. No one else except them is really qualified to judge the relevance.

And other 3rd individual souls may find there is a big market for what they love to do, and will have no problem setting up a large business structure to facilitate that. But it's relevance will be unique to them. Money and power are not likely to be the drivers (as in the consensus way), opportunity to express, create and innovate, benefit others will be the drivers, but handling large amounts of money, and using a business structure to do it all with will be fine with them. 3rd individuals can create great businesses. Others will think that is more relevant, but that's more to do with them than the 3rd individual.

To me, production for production's sake would be a consenus type of behaviour.


Gonzalo
.... that sometimes the true level of consciousness or the evolutionary condition of the Soul will be inwardly revealed through the nature of specific experiences such as altered state of consciousness, ie. unusual meditative states or dreams
You had so many of those. For that to have happened, you probably have to be at least ready for 1st spiritual if not already in it. So maybe you could be late 3rd indiv, on the cusp, or in 1st spiritual. But I feel you would need to back these experiences up with other indicators to be sure. On their own I don't think they are enough. Gonzalo's point though is that your stage is part of your soul, your deeper self, and nothing to do with your ego, and that's where you will see what awareness you actually have, as opposed to what your ego, your normal everyday self, seems to have.

Steve
(transition to 1st Spritual) Gradually one starts realizing the only thing that really makes any sense is to start living to serve the greater whole - everything else winds up feeling meaningless sooner or later.
To me, my feeling regarding this is you can't reach this point just by wanting it alone. You have to have tried to your very best to do what you can actually do in the world. Expressed yourself creatively, fully, trying your best to make the world a better place, with your own hands. Created unique and beneficial things in the world, one because you can, and two because you need to fulfil yourself in doing so - expressing your uniqueness constructively in the world purges the negativity of the 2nd individual stage from the soul. Once this achievement has actually culminated inside though ...

... increasingly in 3rd stage individuated there comes this sense of "there must be more than this" because all the great plans about how to reorganize society for the betterment of all are just not creating the changes the Soul was sure would happen when people saw how much better these new improvements would make things for everyone
Then you know now you've done all you can do this way. So what now? .... the thrill of trying so fully, and enjoying that trying so much, feeling it nourishing the soul, is fading, and I gave all that I have, and now I have nothing left, no more answers fullstop. It's becoming empty and meaningless inside and I desperately need to find something else ...

(1st Spritual) ... and that requires having to release trying to control one's destiny - feeling I must provide for myself as no one else is going to do it, which has been the evolutionary lesson of countless lives - the truth of that.  Suddenly now I am asked to let go of that and learn to trust that through following my natural inner impulses, God/Goddess somehow are going to provide for my needs
To me this is the core characteristic of the spiritual stage ... and its easy for it to be an ideal, but if it's real inside, not an ideal, an actual real desire, it'll be strong enough that you trust it on a daily basis (also noted by Linda & Steve). As Steve says it's weird to live this way, goes against the whole past, seems against the laws of how the whole world works.  

And then one sees how inconsistent one still is in their commitment to live to serve that greater whole, back and forth back and forth.  And that further increases the sense of feeling very small - clueless even.
And so the doubts, the lack of certainty, the low confidence (compared to more worldly people), the humbling

*************

To me everything everyone has said is all relevant. But these are the highlight bits that struck me. And these are just my thoughts regarding those - if I'm not right with anything I hope others will correct it. Thanks for such an interesting thread Wendy!

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Kristin on May 26, 2012, 08:46 AM
HI Wendy and all,

     In starting with your Soul’s personal bottom line intention for the life, Pluto 4th in Virgo  ( I am sure I don’t need to tell you  as your direct experience in life has proven that your personal evolution has required you to be thrown into 4th house hardship and inner anguish and  re-live hard dynamics reflected in your sharing about all the early abuse. You had no choice but to find a way to create an inner safety net by cultivating an strong inner foundation, looking to no one to fill the inner space, to create a strong inner base of emotional security without the need for external validation. It will equal being thrown back on yourself over and over until your own vibration reflects this healthy shift of self providing inner strength. Pluto’s balsalmic conjunction with Uranus, suggests you have come here to culminate family relationships from the past (I am sure you are probably saying thank God - hasta lavista) and working to heal the unresolved trauma linked with tribe, family and those things associated with home that have weighed heavy and caused you to emotionally bleed. In essence you were divorcing yourself, Uranus, from your 4th house Pluto family. In this signature it also suggests the trail of tears linked with certain people including loss of tribe, and dynamics can finally be resolved and put to rest. It sure feels timely for you now with this community offering an objective forum Uranus balsamic to Pluto to help you resolve the remaining emotional threads for good - Welcome Home!

     With Venus New Phase to Pluto, you are in the process of morphing and establishing a new revised reformed  inner relationship to YOUR SELF, starting with learning how to self nurture and fill your own tank first versus ‘giving it all away’. It means not only to develop emotional self reliance but to establish better boundaries in your relationships and a discerning eye with respect to who you give your emotional energy to as Venus does rule your 5th house Mars in Libra and your past tendencies of over giving and co-dependency must cease in order for you to evolve, especially at this point in your evolution. With Pluto’s opposition to Saturn, the ruler of your Moon in Cap in the 8th, house of metamorphosis of the Soul, your Soul is here to throw off the blocks barriers, fears, feelings of inferiority and escapism that ensued that kept you thwarted and frozen, so much so these signatures clearly show you have entered relationships in this life and others that have ‘dramatically’ delayed your own evolution, especially when your heart fell for it, Pluto conjunct Venus in Virgo in the 4th, ruler Mercury in Leo in the 3rd, also this Pluto/Venus opposes Saturn in Pisces in the 10th. You were so focused and as a result swept away by their need there was very little left for you. There are clear masochistic tendencies here by wanting to save and rescue the partner, projecting an image of more than they are capable of becoming perhaps and attracting those more wounded than yourself which helped you to feel a sense of place and purpose, Mars in Libra in the 5th.These 4th house signatures really deny any Soul from getting the love they want until they learn how to self provide in every way and until in your case the healing from lifetimes can happen. To chose to remain alone and communing with God will prove to help you restore and recover your nature versus choosing another relationship that holds you back and depletes your life force.

Pluto Polarity Pisces in the 10th, a life in your case committed to knowing God/Goddess creating a structure around that, designing your 10th house time to reflect this commitment. Also bringing this experience out into the world through a career in help others with their own process.  I want to mention here how this is beautifully reflected in your current research, You wrote,  “Currently I am writing a research paper on Prayer and its impact on one's health and wellness.”- Awesome how literal can EA be? Pluto polarity 10th house in Pisces - research on prayer.


So I will address your specific questions

1. What is the connection that we have from the past?

This connection in particular shows survival themes linked with indigenous tribes seen with your Composite Moon in Sagittarius. This theme shown individually with Wendy’s South Node in Sag, her Uranus, Pluto, Venus conjunction in the 4th and Guy’s history shared by Rad. I can see a theme of early loss of parents and then Wendy being an older sister taking on the responsibility of birth parents, so sister becoming both the Mother AND the Father. Guy’s Pluto and North Node land in Wendy’s 4th conjunct her Uranus , Pluto, Venus. Wendy’s Cap Moon lands in Guy’s 4th house, the ruler Saturn lands on Guy’s South Node in Pisces in the 6th. The sibling/sister is seen with Wendy’s South Node in Guy’s 3rd house and the ruler Jupiter in Gemini in the 9th. This is also seen with Wendy’s Moon in Cap conjunct Guy’s South Node. Also in Composite they have Venus in Libra in the 3rd square the nodes which explains her use of the word 'attraction’ for him, and perhaps this occurred as siblings sexually experimenting in other times, Composite Pluto Mars balsamic in Virgo first house, this instinct was carried forward in this life yet not continued due to too much of a gap in evolutionary state/consciousness for this to be further acted upon and this intention in the Pluto/Mars balamic is to culminate this pattern. Also the attraction to cling and connect seen with Wendy’s Mars in Libra conjunct Guy’s Sun in Libra. In the past too there may have been the instinct to have intimate relations but her age difference in that time and/or responsibilities and roles, perhaps even his injuries preventing this, with him took precedence. This attraction can also be seen with Guy’s Jupiter, the ruler of Wendy’s South Node in her 7th on the descendent.

Wondering if Wendy too may have been a medicine woman for the tribe???, including for the animals and beyond her responsibility to him through family she may have been a nurse maid or medicine woman for the warriors when they were injured in battle. I see this with her South Node in Sag in the 6th...ruler Jupiter in Gemini in the 12th trine Mars in Libra in the 5th. Also the Pluto, Uranus, Venus in Virgo i the 4th.

There is clear gender switch themes in Wendy’s chart with Pluto, Uranus and Venus in the 4th and a Cap Moon in the 8th, ruler Saturn in the 10th but Guy is not evolved enough to have switched genders. (Note, obviously just because someone has loads of Cancer/Cap does not always suggest gender switch, one must observe this in the life of the Soul as in stage of evolution and visually you can tell when a Soul is either coming out of a gender or moving into because of the blending of male/female or for example the strong willed tomboy girl or the creative, feminine boy) Also Rad, Jeffrey taught that not until a Soul has reached a certain stage of evolution would they switch genders in order to evolve and begin to integrate both sides of gender. Is there a stage that you know of where this might first occur?  

 Wendy mentions the possibility of being male warriors with Guy in another time and I can see brothers by blood and brothers by tribe. Composite Pluto in the 1st Balsalmic to Mars, Uranus - warriors. Also a 3rd house Libra can see this gender switch with her in their composite chart with Venus in Libra in the 3rd square the Capricorn/Cancer axis. Recent lives for her as a woman but prior to that she being a male. I see this as a possibility, fighting to defend/protect the tribe, their composite Pluto is making a balsalmic conjunction to Mars and Uranus reflecting this tribe warrior theme. It feels as if there has been more than one life in different relationships together, always connecting to protecting what they have ( in some cases what little they had) and dying in the process, as in dying in the fight to protect their people and land and both experiencing watching the other one die. With that 3rd house Venus in Libra squaring the Nodes I can  see how this might reflect one another dying in eachother’s arms. IN particular Guy dying in Wendy's arms. South Node in Capricorn, ruler Saturn in Aquarius in the 6th trining Libra, ruler Venus in Libra in the 3rd house.. Typically being the underdog culture such as the American Indians experiencing the white European male raped their land and killing their people. Interesting too how Rad mentioned the white Europeans bringing alcohol into the Indians culture and the issues that both Wendy and Guy had in this life linked with this.


2. Intention

     To work through unresolved trauma, broken family and attachment issues ..Guy’s Pluto and North Node are in Wendy’s 4th conjunct her Uranus, Pluto and Venus reflecting the unresolved trauma brought forward to be worked on and emotionally culminated..Also Venus new phase to Pluto reflects a life for Wendy , as mentioned above, to create a new theme re: the new INNER RELATIONSHIP TO HER SELF. using astrology Uranus balsalmic to Pluto or other alternative means to objectify her past patterns so she liberate from them and experience emotioanl freedom. Guy’s Uranus conjunct Wendy’s Mercury, the ruler of her Pluto, Uranus, Venus. She felt responsible in some way, for not being there when he needed her. So coming into this life with lingering responsibility and perhaps guilt - Moon in Cap in the 8th, feeling somehow responsible for the death and no doubt grief surrounding how things suddenly and traumatically ended. Wendy may have even watched it happen Guy’s Uranus conjunct her Mercury, ruler of her Pluto Uranus Venus. They mutually looked to ways to deal with their pain through alcohol and escapism substances but what I found so neat and telling was how they met at an AA and there was an instant connection as if their tribe re-united and they all just started dancing...which was a wonderful image for healing some of the pain of the past..sober awake..alive and with music..The intent to heal in this life, to heal their own broken family/tribe ..Composite Pluto balsalmic conjunction to Mars, Uranus, and North Node in Cancer in the 12th, ruler Moon in Sag in the 5th.

3. How can you help him?

By first helping yourself..as you are doing..moving forward and dedicating your life to the Great One. Your Original Lilith is in Gemini conjunct Jupiter in the 12th house reflecting your original root. A natural healer teacher and communicator of truth, helping people to remember also the natural God  that lives in the woods and in our creative impulses to express ourselves. Teaching that we our simply conduits for this ultimate source and living this truth via your own personal example. You can do this creatively through artistic means with the ruler of your Lilith and Jupiter conjunction being Mercury in Leo in your 3rd house. You can teach via writing or speaking. You are a natural Psychologist with your Pluto Polarity point landing in the 10th in Pisces exactly conjunct your Saturn which rules your 8th house Moon in Cap. Also Jupiter in Gemini in the 12th on your ascendant and trining your Mars in Libra - you can transfer this instinct to help others into your own practice versus overextending yourself in an imbalanced intimate relationship.

You can help him to think and feel more openly ..spiritually, cosmologically..by removing your own enmeshment - as his instinct and desire for you to care for him is still in place “ I expressed that he slow down, because I could feel that his mind and emotional body was already engaged in us being together”. When you remove your attachment it frees up energy and gives him space for him to find his wings and grow. Spiritually he is like a child learning to walk so you are going to have to let him get bruised and fall. You must take the lead and be the ‘grown up’ taking responsibility for the where/how this relationship is energized. If he can’t play by the new rules, your Moon in Cap on the Composite South Node and your Saturn on his South Node in Pisces, then another parting is necessary for both of your Soul’s sake, especially yours.

For you Wendy to evolve you must individuate/separate from him and  lose the need to be in a relationship that looks any particular way. I loved the image of sitting quietly in the forest together where no words were necessary, getting back to simply love in simple spaces. Composite North Node in Cancer in the 12th, ruler Moon in Sag in the 5th. Its about taking the relationship to higher levels..spiritually giving if he is open to having a relationship that encourages his emotional/spiritual growth. Guy’s North Node of Mars is conjunct your own North Node of Mars in Gemini in the 12th along with your Jupiter and Original Lilith in Gemini which all trines your natal Mars in Libra in the 5th. You will know instinctually how to teach him the natural laws of the world in order to expand his spiritual awareness. Also to remember Wendy that your Mars in Libra is learning when to give and when not to give, how much to give and how much not to give..You are learning that, “By appearing not to give ( to the degree he would like) is practicing the art of supreme giving by helping another (him) help himself." This enmeshment in part is because of your need to be needed, Mars in Libra in the 5th.. Your Mars in Libra square Cap Moon in the 8th suggests you have put other people needs in front of your own so much so you were delaying your own evolution which is why of course this relationship in the way it has been cannot happen. It is important for anyone further along on the path to extend the hand down the mountain which is so reflective in your Cap Moon, but at exactly what price? You must strike a balance. And for you Wendy personally he represents someone is a blood line, your family and after losing parents perhaps you bonded in unimaginably deep ways knowing you were all one another had..and so he had a way of taking care of that ache in you. And you had a way of taking care if that ache in him. Guy’s Sun on your 5th house Mars is like filling that bottomless pit of need with light..or serving as the motivation to keep on living. Of course you have natural nurturing care taking tendencies with the strong Cancer energy and Mars in Libra so it is a natural instinct to give and to help. There appears to be an imbalance however as his need may have been greater than yours whether younger in another life or wounded physically where your  whole life was around tending to him (maybe he was even paralyzed or unable to take care of himself in some way because of being wounded in battle)seen with the Composite Pluto in Virgo balsalmic to Mars, Uranus and Venus squaring the Nodes and you shouldering more of the burden or the responsibility. You can also see how this played out when he teared up with his guilt surround not paying you money back that he owed you.  This imbalance is seen here when you said this, “I wanted liberation from co-dependency, even if it hurt like hell, while he wanted to dive into me (that's how I felt) and get all his needs met through me." :So of course your own personal evolution requires you to create strong boundaries in terms now of how much of yourself you can give.  

I wanted to lastly speak to current transits for you.

Transiting Mars currently conjuncts Uranus in your 4th..your astro community/home here!
This Mars also square your nodes reflecting a change in  direction and embracing your spiritually nature, Tr South Node in your 12th house just came over your natal North node, so the past meets the future and and helps to propel you forward as you gain the understanding surrounding your next steps - Evolutionary Gate - THE DOORS ON THE TRAIN ARE OPENING!
Also tr Saturn on your Mars in Libra squaring your Moon while this same Saturn trines your 12thouse house Jupiter in Gemini, staying rooted in your nature and truth, it is is about you finally ending this connection with Guy in the form it has been and he is a final symbol of sorts for all the others that you may have chosen in the past that delayed your growth. This is not to say in this life or in lives to come you won’t see him again, it is just the relationship will evolve, necessarily so and your final attachment to him beyond spiritual adviser will be gone, which can then open doors to a connection that more equally matches where you are at this place on the path - Someone who reflects your own growth, one who more closely matches your essence and stage of evolution..

It is time..

Peace and Evolution,
Kristin


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 26, 2012, 09:49 AM
Hi Kristin,

"Also Rad, Jeffrey taught that not until a Soul has reached a certain stage of evolution would they switch genders in order to evolve and begin to integrate both sides of gender. Is there a stage that you know of where this might first occur? "

************

You have this confused with when a Soul evolves to the point of being able to split itself into other ego's that are living at the same time in order to accelerate the Soul's evolution. That capacity begins in the 1st Stage spiritual. Gender switching occurs at all the natural evolutionary stages.

**************

God Bless, Rad


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Kristin on May 26, 2012, 05:12 PM
Rad,

Yes I did have that confused....thank you for the correction.

Peace,
Kristin



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 26, 2012, 05:22 PM
Hi Upasika,

Thanks so much for your last post.  The following really touched off some light bulbs in me, especially the part in bold:

To me, my feeling regarding this is you can't reach this point just by wanting it alone. You have to have tried to your very best to do what you can actually do in the world. Expressed yourself creatively, fully, trying your best to make the world a better place, with your own hands. Created unique and beneficial things in the world, one because you can, and two because you need to fulfil yourself in doing so - expressing your uniqueness constructively in the world purges the negativity of the 2nd individual stage from the soul. Once this achievement has actually culminated inside though ...

THANK YOU FOR THIS!

Peace,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 26, 2012, 05:32 PM
Hi Kristin,

Wow, I just loved your analysis! So thorough, insightful.

I have a question about the composite Pluto. Generically Pluto in the 1st in the composite indicates that the relationship between the two people is relatively brand new. But with Wendy and Guy there are also a lot of indications that they have been deeply intertwined in past lives on multiple levels, and that it isn't that new at all.

Also you have pointed out that Wendy's relationship with Guy needs to be put into a new framework, specifically based on more of her own needs being met, and as part of her general evolutionary growth.

So have you interpreted the composite Pluto in the 1st to indicate that the relationship was already heading into this new "form" in the most recent life or lives, and that that is what is reflected by Pluto being in the 1st? Or do you see it in some other way? Seems to be a bit of paradox operating within the symbols.

Thanks.

blessings Upasika



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 26, 2012, 05:39 PM
Elen, glad it was helpful. It was always a bit of a riddle for me too ... 2nd individ so negative / 3rd indiv so positive..  took a lot of observation and contemplation till it dawned on me what the mechanics of it were about, what was involved, happening..


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 26, 2012, 06:03 PM
Elen,

I think what you are saying here is really accurate! I totally agree.

And good luck with your moving.

blessings Upasika

Thank you, Upasika.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 26, 2012, 06:32 PM
Hi Wendy and Rad,

I posted an analysis I did on Guy's chart but then removed.  I'm new to synastry so it seems I have to go very slow and thoroughly, looking at each chart, then the rest, which takes time.  It occurred to me after I posted that it might not be relevant/appropriate to what this thread is about and what Wendy is asking, so wanted feedback about that.  I do plan to keep looking at this and if time allows, continue to write up my thoughts.  Again, though, I'm not sure it is helpful/appropriate/etc to post individual chart analyses here....

Also, Wendy, just as an fyi, I wanted to look at your chart last night but it seems I copied and pasted the composite chart twice, labeling one Wendy and one Composite.  So, when I got home, I didn't have your chart!  A comedy of errors going on in my world :D.  Looks like I will have internet at home soon.. Hooray!

Kristin, I appreciated your post.  Amazing to see it all put together!

Peace,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 26, 2012, 06:56 PM
Hi Wendy,

One last thought from me...

It feels to me like you are late 3rd indiv, on the cusp, or 1st Spiritual. Many things suggest 1st Spiritual.

Regarding your question about 3rd individ possibilities...

Quote
I most definitely relate to 3rd stage individuated, NN Gemini-Mercury in Leo/Sun Leo, and felt for much of my life that I had a great deal of creativity to share with the world, to somehow make a difference.  Once my soul and spirit arose and my consciousness deepened, I began to question any contribution I may have...does the world really need this? I don't need any recognition for making a contribution...maybe this desire 'publishing book to affect the collective' is a meaningless desire and I should just concentrate on my relationship with spirit (this is where I go back and forth), although now I am very clear that what is coming through me will be shared, how is another question).  

I feel that if I don't follow through with offering a contribution, a beautiful, creative and deeply spiritual contribution that I will have to do this all over again, and why, why should I back to do this part, if I can do it now--because I doubt? myself, the worth of what I'm writing, etc.  That said, I have extensive Virgo/Pisces, signature of a weak ego, so of course, I am questioning, doubting, but that Virgo is in square to 12th house planets, plus my Leo planets are imbued with Neptune, which all lead back to Spirit--creative self-actualization within the house of Spirit, to develop, birth an refined ego?  This part confuses me


The journey through the stages is all about our separating desires - exhausting them until the desire to return is all that's left. It seems to me many desires can be dropped simply by observing them, watching them, and watching them - without activating them.

Desires arise all the time, in all shapes and sizes. I want a coffee, I want to go for a walk, I want to live in a better house, I want to see a friend, I want to avoid doing things I don't like, I want to be a better person, I want, I want... left to itself the body/mind seems to breed desires like a stagnant pond breeds mosquitos!

And certainly with trivial desires it is easy to just note them, but do nothing about them, and just by waiting they disappear - they were only trivial. Something else starts happening and they are forgotten.
But with others, even when not acted upon, it may take 6 months or a year or more for the energy in a desire to dissipate.

But I feel there are some desires that are deep, core desires. Stubborn ones. Doesn't matter how much you watch them, for how long, they aren't disappearing, they aren't going anywhere. I feel these desires need to be lived, and only by pursuing them, experiencing them are they exhausted.

So, it occurred to me that a possibility (and I'm just suggesting it as a possibility) is that this desire you talk about in the quote above is perhaps the last core 3rd individ separating desire that you may have - that it might need to be lived to be truly exhausted. That you are very, very ready to be in the 1st spiritual, so prepared to be in it, but have this one last 3rd individ separating desire. And that is holding you back. (It may have something to do with that Saturn skipped step). It sounds like a very worthwhile thing to do, even if just for yourself, the value being in the effort itself, but it could probably also benefit many.

I don't know if this is the case at all or not. Has this desire been with you through thick and thin, over a long period of time? Does it feel like a deep need inside to fulfil this desire?

Hypothetically speaking (just using imagination for a second) ... if somehow something arose that removed, completely denied the possibility of pursuing this desire, totally wiped it out of your grasp for ever, and nothing was given to replace it, nothing at all - how would you feel? Would you feel a major important, perhaps essential way for you to grow had been taken away from you?
... just an exercise perhaps to explore any deeper feelings you may have about it.

However, maybe you are in 1st Spiritual, and this is a prompting from Source. And if the possibility was inexplicately taken away from you, even with nothing to replace it, you felt no loss at all...

I'm not proposing anything either way, not even sure if it's a suitable way to approach it, it's just a last thought I had Wendy...

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Kristin on May 27, 2012, 09:37 AM
Hi Upasika,


You wrote
I have a question about the composite Pluto. Generically Pluto in the 1st in the composite indicates that the relationship between the two people is relatively brand new. But with Wendy and Guy there are also a lot of indications that they have been deeply intertwined in past lives on multiple levels, and that it isn't that new at all.

The Composite 1st House Pluto can also correlate to a new cycle of being, as in the relationship taking on a new theme. In this case this new cycle correlates and will ultimately lead to a parting of ways seen with Pluto/Mars Balsalmic, North Node in the 12th as well. When this occurs and this depends on Guy's response, as in will he agree to the new and necessary terms? If he wants what he can't have, and demands more 'or else', the trail ends here. If he wants her higher help then she can help him for perhaps lifetimes to come in some higher way however it will lead to a parting of ways at some point because of the evolutionary gap and the natural evolutionary process of this connection.

The different pages, different stages has been clear all along but the pain and inner void due to the evolutionary gap has been increasing for Wendy and she is progressively developing the necessary objectivity seen with her natal Pluto Uranus Balsalmic in the 4th as well as their Composite Pluto Uranus in the 1st. This life it feels as if, and the intention is that there were be no more flip flopping (Composite Venus in Libra in the 3rd square the nodes). She may have known or felt what the right thing do in the past was but could not help but fall back into it, the feeling of relative security of being needed, the groove in the record can be so deep,  SO I see this as the first life she finally deepens that new groove for the new song to play, initiating a new and more evolved relationship that sticks not flips, if and only if he can be on board for that.

An end to the old but a start to the new.

Hope that makes it more clear.

Peace,
Kristin


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 27, 2012, 04:27 PM
Yes Kristin, makes it really clear, thanks.


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 27, 2012, 04:29 PM
Hi Kristin and All,

I want to first say thank you for posting all that you have, and for helping me see the deepest bottom-line truth of my Pluto.  So much resonates, on very deep levels.  I am absorbing it all and want you all to know how very grateful I am.  Initially it took courage to put all of this out here on the forum, now I am processing it and working with my emotions, seeing the pain in a whole new light, thus I will post as often as my inner self directs.  This pattern goes way back, but the root of it is coming up and out now.

Basically reading, what you wrote about 'giving, but at what cost' and 'dramatically delayed your own soul evolution' floored me to the degree of feeling/experiencing deep deep shock and soul memory (almost like a coffin opening with this aspect of my soul being freed), to have what I have been feeling mirrored back in such as deep and profound way--it is truly liberating, and heart-wrenching.

It's one thing to know something, intuit it (Sag) understand it, which is normal for me, but to articulate it--soul bottom line with so much clarity thru words is a whole new evolutionary dynamic for me.  Having it spelled out like this is phenomenal, because I can bypass the Gemini piece that calls for me to use words--to get it--really really get it.  Thank you.

from your post:
With Pluto’s opposition to Saturn, the ruler of your Moon in Cap in the 8th, house of metamorphosis of the Soul, your Soul is here to throw off the blocks barriers, fears, feelings of inferiority and escapism that ensued that kept you thwarted and frozen, so much so these signatures clearly show you have entered relationships in this life and others that have ‘dramatically’ delayed your own evolution

There are clear masochistic tendencies here by wanting to save and rescue the partner, projecting an image of more than they are capable of becoming perhaps and attracting those more wounded than yourself which helped you to feel a sense of place and purpose, Mars in Libra in the 5th.These 4th house signatures really deny any Soul from getting the love they want until they learn how to self provide in every way and until in your case the healing from lifetimes can happen. To chose to remain alone and communing with God will prove to help you restore and recover your nature versus choosing another relationship that holds you back and depletes your life force.

This is my deepest desire and I had created that for many years, with lots of time of Spirit, communing with nature animals--this fosters my Saturn Pisces function to operate optimally, which has been disturbed the last several years.

It's shocking to my system to see that I have such a deep pattern of masochism.  Since Rad has been posting all the transcribed lectures, I have gained so much, and clearly see how deep the signature is for me, and now  feel it too after reading your post.  The other piece that is so intensely overwhelming at times is: all the functions my Pluto desires to integrate, i.e., Pluto 4th House (Cancer), Pluto Venus (2nd House Pluto Taurus theme), Pluto square NN (Pluto in the 12th theme w/Gemini), Pluto Uranus, and PPP (10th House Pisces theme).

The grand cross suggests that I have avoided this integration many many times, and I guess I will have many many more lives to work it out, Pluto Mars new phase.  This awareness is humbling as well.

With Uranus Pluto in 4th of family, I came along as the wild card that brought the issues to a head and began to break free from the constraints of lifetimes of familial patterns, for myself and for the lineage of both my parents families, which included sincere healing in the emotional body, confrontations and deep forgiveness on my part.  It's really quite amazing all the miracles that have come forward over all these years, due to my, one, willingness, and two, because my soul and Spirit needed to recover in that way.  So yes, I did divorce myself from family, which took many years to achieve, and I now have healthy relationships with them, as my evolutionary function demanded that or nothing, thus we have all evolved, some of us at greater leaps and bounds that others.

The codependency issue is interesting too because I have been radically opposed to relationships that held that signature, and have turned down getting married four times in this life, because I just can't handle any pull on my energy (meaning those proposals where with men who didn't have strong cores), and have spent a great deal of time outside of intimate relationships, even though I have a strong Cancerian/Libra nature, that orients me to desire to join, share, and build a life that includes other in a deep and significant way.  That said, I have continued to have relationships over the years that bring this issue (Mars-Moon square) right to the surface every time, trusting teachers too that have not been worthy of it...maybe next life relative to Venus Mars in balsamic phase, and with focus of polarity of Mars Aries in the 11th, I can-will liberate further.  All this gives me a great deal of surety in my direction forward.

I too wondered about the medicine woman aspect (healing for many lives), but I do resonate with the older sibling sister to Guy.  In this life the attraction is more about home and love (Cancer-Venus) than a sexual nature.  I am attracted to him physically (Mars), but there is no energy there for me, even when we were dating that dissolved quickly (I guess some part of me knew).

In regard to Medicine or Holy Woman, if my soul has changed genders in the recent lives, would it be more likely that I was a male then, in these lives with Guy?

Kristin's post:
In the past too there may have been the instinct to have intimate relations but her age difference in that time and/or responsibilities and roles, perhaps even his injuries preventing this, with him took precedence. This attraction can also be seen with Guy’s Jupiter, the ruler of Wendy’s South Node in her 7th on the descendent.

Wondering if Wendy too may have been a medicine woman for the tribe???, including for the animals and beyond her responsibility to him through family she may have been a nurse maid or medicine woman for the warriors when they were injured in battle. I see this with her South Node in Sag in the 6th...ruler Jupiter in Gemini in the 12th trine Mars in Libra in the 5th. Also the Pluto, Uranus, Venus in Virgo i the 4th.


From what I have posted, it may seem that Guy and I are in contact a great deal.  Generally that is not the case at all, and I'm sure our deep rooted history is acting as a catalyst for evolution, as well as my sincere desire to understand the function of Mars Libra square Capricorn Moon, because it has continued to bring me more of the same old relationship patterns, and t-Saturn right on natal Mars, and T-Mars on 4th house stellium--the clarity is finally coming!!! with all of your help.
 
Depending on Guy's interest in evolving, and my own need to balance our interaction, we may be able to foster a healthy connection.  I know he wants the best for me and is not insistent on having me in his life in a particular way.  God knows we didn't talk for close to twenty years, so for this to be coming up now (t-Pluto in Capricorn, Saturn squaring composite nodes), I feel only blessings will come thru, with honesty-healing, especially if I share with him the depth of our connection, which may transform his attraction-projection onto me, into higher planes, consciousness.

Kristin's post:
Your Mars in Libra square Cap Moon in the 8th suggests you have put other people needs in front of your own so much so you were delaying your own evolution which is why of course this relationship in the way it has been cannot happen. It is important for anyone further along on the path to extend the hand down the mountain which is so reflective in your Cap Moon, but at exactly what price?

This broke me open, right down to the bottom line of my soul's deep pain (Venus Mars Libra).  This pattern is so ingrained, almost unconscious (is that because of square to Mars and its link to Pluto?).

Kristin's post:
You must strike a balance. And for you Wendy personally he represents someone is a blood line, your family and after losing parents perhaps you bonded in unimaginably deep ways knowing you were all one another had..and so he had a way of taking care of that ache in you. And you had a way of taking care if that ache in him. Guy’s Sun on your 5th house Mars is like filling that bottomless pit of need with light..or serving as the motivation to keep on living.

This is true right now.  I come in and out of balance (progressed Libra-ugh!), feeling totally at one with God and then back into absorbing others people's energy patterns/ego, especially living in other peoples homes, I am experiencing 12th house Pluto/Pisces stress.

Kristin's post:
Of course you have natural nurturing care taking tendencies with the strong Cancer energy and Mars in Libra so it is a natural instinct to give and to help.

working to heal the unresolved trauma linked with tribe, family and those things associated with home that have weighed heavy and caused you to emotionally bleed. In essence you were divorcing yourself, Uranus, from your 4th house Pluto family. In this signature it also suggests the trail of tears linked with certain people including loss of tribe, and dynamics can finally be resolved and put to rest. [/color]


I have carried this pain for a long time and have resolved a great deal, but the desire for real-time community lingers, and I feel fulfilled on a very deep level within this community.  I feel my Mars in square to SN's of Saturn and Pluto have a great deal with further healing that needs to occur for me move forward, evolutionarily speaking.  It's an interested synastry.  I've always had deep anger at the government, but also have evolved enough to know not take them on again, directly.

It sure feels timely for you now with this community offering an objective forum Uranus balsamic to Pluto to help you resolve the remaining emotional threads for good - Welcome Home!

Thank you Kristin--the other day when I posted about that, I felt I had entered my 12th house, consciously embodied, for the first time, plus reading 12th House Pluto in the Pluto book opened the way (spoke volumes to me).  

Also, I just realized that my progressed Mercury is right on SN of my Venus (1 Libra).  Amazing how this stuff works!

God Bless you all.

with love,
Wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 27, 2012, 05:24 PM
Hi Wendy,

Thank you for sharing all that, being so open with your own personal process. And I also got a lot out of your own response to Kristin's analysis, the way you described your new understanding of the signatures in your chart and how you see yourself working with them from hereon. Letting us share in your learning experience is great learning for us too (well it certainly is for me anyway).

Your life story and your response here is very touching.

blessings Upasika


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Kristin on May 28, 2012, 09:47 AM
Wendy,

Evolving can be a painful way to travel, most often it is, especially when there are old or unhealthy patterns. My heart goes out to you. Know that you do have the support of this community here along of course with the Great one God and his/her agents above who are applauding these brave steps.

It is important more than ever now if you feel emotionally fileted, to take the necessary time to integrate which can allow for some permanent shifts to occur. You have been working on this for more than this life and your quote about turning down 4 marriage proposals is an example of this. It feels like a final bend in the road as it relates to a lot of these dynamics, a life where you can finally be emotionally set free from certain emotional burdens

You wrote "The grand cross suggests that I have avoided this integration many many times, and I guess I will have many many more lives to work it out, Pluto Mars new phase.  This awareness is humbling as well."

One thing try not to (4th house Virgo) overwhelm yourself with this thought above because with too much focus on certain symbols or past holding it can create even more resistance or paralysis which is what energized that grand cross in the first place.. From my point of view you are making a big breakthroughs not only starting with the courage to bring this here for all to see in order to guarantee closure of some kind but this life represents great movement based on what you have shared. Rad correct me if I am wrong but it does not feel to me that it will take 'many many lifetimes to work it out'.

You asked about gender together and in recent lives I still feel you were an older woman more responsible for him in his life..Composite SN in Cap as in the sister who became the mother, and some other scenarios, Rad if it is appropriate and will help Wendy, can you add to that? But I also can see you as male warriors together and the story I shared..I do not have the capacity to clearly see the examples beyond that. I feel what is most important here separate from the specific story is the emotioanl dynamics that you are aware of that have linked and locked you to him in some way.

Wishing you continued growth, heart open, head high and soul evolving.
peace,
kristin


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 28, 2012, 02:20 PM
Hi Wendy,

Thank you for sharing your journey.  I will not add anything more as it feels to me that you have received all that you have needed.  Thank you for the opportunity to learn and grow in understanding.

Wishing you peace and happiness,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 28, 2012, 03:56 PM
Thanks to everyone, and I wanted to further clarify about the mutable patterns in my chart.  I have been dealing with parasitic energy for most of my life, I just attract it (Leo light shines/attracts and Pisces/Virgo picks it up), thus I have been consciously developing, working on building a core inner structure for close to 23 years.  Learning to stabilize has been a challenge, as there has much much desire for it and loads of resistance (fear of being full, or lack of worth, both), thus bumps in the road, which bring me back to the same issues.

What I understand now, is how relative the aspect-phase of Mars Pluto, and how significant the Mars Moon aspect is for me.  I have read all this stuff in the Pluto, but it didn't permeate, until now. 

I did write up an analysis of my chart and Guy's chart, and wanted to post them, mostly to get the astrological education of chart analysis.  I hope to post them tomorrow.  Rad, please let me know if I should not post them.

Thanks so much everyone and Upasika I plan to continue the dialogue about evolutionary states too.

love and blessings,
wendy



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Wendy on May 28, 2012, 08:32 PM
Hi Elen,

Hi Wendy,

Thanks again for this great topic.

You wrote:  "Can a 1st stage spiritual soul have the need to develop an ego?"

Others will be able to answer this better than I can, but in the DVD course, I recall JWG making the point that even Jesus had an ego - enlightened people have egos. 

In my understanding, the question isn't, does an ego need to develop, but to whom is the ego in service? 

I also feel quite strongly, and this coming out of my own journey at this time, that part of the "success" of the patriarchy has been the obstruction of the healthy development of ego

If a healthy ego were not necessary to develop, why would the Soul bother to manifest it?  The ego is the individualized aspect of the Soul and can be said to "serve" the Soul's purpose. 

If it is weak/undeveloped, it seems to me that the Soul's intentions can't ever really be realized.  And this, in turn, would mean that the intention of Source could also not be realized. 

I get the sense, also, with regard to my own journey, that an undeveloped ego can be mistaken for humility.  An undeveloped ego is not in fact humility, it is victim-hood

Again, it's not the development or existence of an ego that is the question, but to whom or what is the ego oriented or in service to.

My thoughts on this, anyway.  Others will correct any errors........

Peace,
Elen

This is so right-on Elen.  Thank you for sharing it.

love and blessings,
wendy


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Linda on May 29, 2012, 03:50 AM
Hi Wendy,

There's not much more I can add to Kristin's great analysis of the charts.  I just remembered that I did a reading for you via personal message last year, and I've copied a few pertinent excerpts here:

The dependencies on others are symbolized by Pluto conjunct Venus – love relationships or attachments – and also Uranus in balsamic conjunction to Pluto – detaching in order to be able to objectify your behaviour patterns and therefore changing them.  

As you are an aware Soul, you do understand how attaching to others, or others attaching to you, can become quite unhealthy leading to co-dependency.  

The archetype of Juno/Aquarius/8th ruled by Uranus in balsamic conjunction to Pluto/4th means that you are able to DETACH, to become emotionally SELF-SECURE, to be FREE within your relationships......essentially to create SELF-SUFFICIENT relationships.

****

I feel that you are at the beginning of 1st stage Spiritual, and that you have resolved your compound skipped steps through the consistent focus upon your spirituality/dharma/writing/Natural Laws.

Transiting Pluto will exactly conjunct your Magdalena 8 deg Capricorn 7th house next month (June) with T-Uranus squaring it from your 10th house.  This transit will last for a couple of years.  

Thanks and blessings,

Linda




Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Rad on May 29, 2012, 07:32 AM
Hi Kristin,

"Rad correct me if I am wrong but it does not feel to me that it will take 'many many lifetimes to work it out'."

************

This all depends on the choices being made. It certainly isn't 'fated' that this would be so.

**********

God Bless, Rad



Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Elen on May 29, 2012, 06:51 PM
Glad that helped, Wendy.  Something I've been thinking about lately.....

Peace,
Elen


Title: Re: Capricorn Archetype
Post by: Upasika on May 31, 2012, 04:13 PM
Thanks so much everyone and Upasika I plan to continue the dialogue about evolutionary states too.

Sure Wendy, I'd enjoy it too. But I'm out of action for the next 4-5 weeks - if you are still wanting to at that point, you'll see when I'm back when I'm posting again.