School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: ari moshe on May 06, 2009, 10:29 PM



Title: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 06, 2009, 10:29 PM
From the old ea mb:

Quote
(Question) 20-Sep-1999 Pluto Squaring Nodes Is it possible that Pluto, the planet squaring the nodes in the skipped steps dynamic, could also reflect a soul who, for this particular life, has chosen to "block" to some extent the level of evolution it has attained prior to this life, for deeper reasons. (and not because of de-evolution or misuse of whatever). And within this, at some point in the current life the individual becomes 'unblocked', & "recovers" a vast recollection of awareness within its consciousness, inconceivable to itself prior to the unblocking. If this is the case could you please supply an example which examines this dynamic relevant to the Soul's intention and evolution. Or, if I could have a general understanding in your words. (I have given some thought to possible reasons why such a condition would exist relative to the overall intent of a chart's aspects/dynamics). I understand that from time to time even "Masters" choose conditions not unlike this idea in some life or other, recovering its specific destiny & purpose on Earth which in the first place necessitated reincarnating with these conditions in place. - Ingrid M.
(Answer) yes this is possible and is reflected in the pluto square the nodes... that is the very nature of the skipped steps in the example/question you have posed... i know of now examples however to give you on this this specific point jeffrey

I'm fascinated by that question. Is she referring to a case like Mahasaya where his previous self realization was blocked from him until a key point in his life?

Does this mean there is no karma for that soul to work out? how would we read the skipped step in such a case? what are the philosophical implications of that?

Also, what kind of observations and correlations would indicate such a case? are there any other signatures besides pluto square nodes that indicate this potential?

I've been told by a clairvoyant friend that a relative of mine has fully awakened in the past and has chosen this life to not wake up. as you can only imagine, she has not had an easy life. she's married, mother to 4 children. works as a nursery teacher for past 25 years. suffers from depression her entire life. was abused- health and mental issues. id guess second individuated bc of her awareness of how things are. she still generally follows the guidelines of the consensus- yet she feels differently from it.
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/relative-1.jpg)

if what my friend says is indeed so, how could i verify it, or not, using the ea method?

i have a such a strong desire to express how much i appreciate this mb. this is a HUGE gift and service.



Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 08, 2009, 09:43 AM
From the old ea mb:

Quote
(Question) 20-Sep-1999 Pluto Squaring Nodes Is it possible that Pluto, the planet squaring the nodes in the skipped steps dynamic, could also reflect a soul who, for this particular life, has chosen to "block" to some extent the level of evolution it has attained prior to this life, for deeper reasons. (and not because of de-evolution or misuse of whatever). And within this, at some point in the current life the individual becomes 'unblocked', & "recovers" a vast recollection of awareness within its consciousness, inconceivable to itself prior to the unblocking. If this is the case could you please supply an example which examines this dynamic relevant to the Soul's intention and evolution. Or, if I could have a general understanding in your words. (I have given some thought to possible reasons why such a condition would exist relative to the overall intent of a chart's aspects/dynamics). I understand that from time to time even "Masters" choose conditions not unlike this idea in some life or other, recovering its specific destiny & purpose on Earth which in the first place necessitated reincarnating with these conditions in place. - Ingrid M.
(Answer) yes this is possible and is reflected in the pluto square the nodes... that is the very nature of the skipped steps in the example/question you have posed... i know of now examples however to give you on this this specific point jeffrey

I'm fascinated by that question. Is she referring to a case like Mahasaya where his previous self realization was blocked from him until a key point in his life?

Does this mean there is no karma for that soul to work out? how would we read the skipped step in such a case? what are the philosophical implications of that?

Also, what kind of observations and correlations would indicate such a case? are there any other signatures besides pluto square nodes that indicate this potential?

I've been told by a clairvoyant friend that a relative of mine has fully awakened in the past and has chosen this life to not wake up. as you can only imagine, she has not had an easy life. she's married, mother to 4 children. works as a nursery teacher for past 25 years. suffers from depression her entire life. was abused- health and mental issues. id guess second individuated bc of her awareness of how things are. she still generally follows the guidelines of the consensus- yet she feels differently from it.
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/relative-1.jpg)

if what my friend says is indeed so, how could i verify it, or not, using the ea method?

i have a such a strong desire to express how much i appreciate this mb. this is a HUGE gift and service.



*****************************************************************************

  In the case of Masters like Mahasaya this phenomena is very different than other Souls that do the blocking of their 'inherent natures', and the consciousness therein. In the case of Mahasaya one of the specific purposes of his life was to use himself as an example of the path of the 'householder' in spiritual life, that it is entirely possible to have full God realization in that context as opposed to monastic living. Thus he was born as a Libra. And that dictated that he live enough years to get married, have children, etc in order to have a householder's life. So the 'blocking' was not being caused from within his own Soul: it was caused because of his mission as directed by God itself.
  In almost all of the other cases that I know of in which this blocking of their consciousness, their natural natures, has happened from within the Soul itself it has been caused by a lifetime, or lifetimes, in which some major traumatic circumstance has happened BECAUSE OF THEIR INHERENT NATURES AND THE CONSCIOUSNESS THEREIN. And because of the nature of the trauma(s) this has caused the Soul such great fear in terms of being who they inherently are, their natures and consciousness, that they have then 'compensated' for their natures by 'hiding' from the world, the consensus world, who they actually are. And in that act of hiding trying to appear 'normal' from the point of view of the consensus world.
  When this happens from the point of view of Evolution it is as if they come to a standstill, and are simply marking time. Psychologically speaking, they create the conditions for depression and the sense of simply going through the motions of life itself. Others will typically keep themselves overly busy with doing one thing after the other in order to avoid as best  they can the deep inner pit of loneliness, and existential void, and no real sense of meaning or purpose of a lasting nature. Others can degenerate into a life of escapism in a variety of forms including drugs and alcohol.
  Compensation as a dynamic is astrology correlations is Jupiter, Sagittarius, and the 9th House. Trauma of course is Uranus, the 11th House, and Aquarius. There are many possible astrological signatures that can correlate with this situation but the Sag, 9th House, Jupiter, Uranus, 11th House, Aquarius archetypes will be implicated in all cases.
 All Souls have karma unless a Soul is in the most advanced states of Evolution such as an Avatar. Skipped steps are read when any planet is square the nodal axis the the Evolutionary intent of course is the recover the skipped step(s).
 In terms of your friend there is no way of being able to look at  any birth chart and know if a person is 'fully awake' or not. One must do the traditional astrology thing which is to make observations of the person. But your friends case is the archetypal embodiment of the skipped steps that have been caused by compensating for who they actually are due to past life traumas that have caused her to hide. The hiding part in her chart is symbolized by her S.Node in the 12th house, and also her Venus in opposition to her Neptune.
 Feel free to ask more about this is you wish Ari.

 Rad








Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: bluesky on May 16, 2009, 03:56 PM
Dear Rad,

what would be the resolution for "marking time" with respect to this chart? and even generally speaking.

thanks


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 18, 2009, 10:27 AM
Dear Rad,

what would be the resolution for "marking time" with respect to this chart? and even generally speaking.

thanks

Hi Bluesky,

 The resolution in this chart, and all charts in which compensation has taken place like this, is to first desire to undo the compensation which means to acknowledge that it taken place in the first place. Once that occurs then the next step is to determine the causes, reasons, why that has happened. Once the reasons and causes have been determined to then determine the natural ways to undo that compensation in such a way as to utterly redesign the life in order to reflect who the Soul actually is. This of course requires great, great courage. The specific causes of what led to the compensation is different in every case as are the ways to undo it in order to redesign the life. Each birth chart in which this is symbolized tells the unique story for each. Feel free to ask more about this if you wish.

  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: bluesky on May 18, 2009, 11:20 AM
Hi there Rad, and thanks for your thoughtful response.

Not only is it difficult to come to terms with compensating behavior, but in order to move forward, a person also needs to embrace who they actually are.

how can you determine something like this?  can anything be seen in the birthchart?  I have seen something about Sagittarius illuminating the way, but I have to wonder if it isn't more than this (just my personal opinion).



Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 19, 2009, 12:59 PM
Hi there Rad, and thanks for your thoughtful response.

Not only is it difficult to come to terms with compensating behavior, but in order to move forward, a person also needs to embrace who they actually are.

how can you determine something like this?  can anything be seen in the birthchart?  I have seen something about Sagittarius illuminating the way, but I have to wonder if it isn't more than this (just my personal opinion).



Hi Bluesky,

 The entire birth chart reflects and symbolizes the unique individuality of all Souls, not just one symbol, but the entire chart. The beauty of EA, when rightly understood, offers just that. EA requires that one interface with the individual, to talk with them, observe them. The interface then between such interaction with the person and their birth chart generates the understanding of the uniqueness, the natural individuality, of their Soul.

 Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 20, 2009, 02:13 AM
Thank you for your responses Rad. I have 2 questions.

Quote
All Souls have karma unless a Soul is in the most advanced states of Evolution such as an Avatar. Skipped steps are read when any planet is square the nodal axis the the Evolutionary intent of course is the recover the skipped step(s).

1. a planet squaring the node implies karma. however, how would we read that for a soul that we observe to be an avatar? does it always imply karma? im not clear if your even saying that it's possible for an avatar to have a planet squaring a node.
In the example of my relative, what kind of observations could possibly lead to such a conclusion?

2. are semi squares to the nodes also considered skipped steps in ea? Could you differentiate the basic karmic difference between square and semi square to the nodes?




Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 20, 2009, 12:18 PM
Thank you for your responses Rad. I have 2 questions.

Quote
All Souls have karma unless a Soul is in the most advanced states of Evolution such as an Avatar. Skipped steps are read when any planet is square the nodal axis the the Evolutionary intent of course is the recover the skipped step(s).

1. a planet squaring the node implies karma. however, how would we read that for a soul that we observe to be an avatar? does it always imply karma? im not clear if your even saying that it's possible for an avatar to have a planet squaring a node.
In the example of my relative, what kind of observations could possibly lead to such a conclusion?

2. are semi squares to the nodes also considered skipped steps in ea? Could you differentiate the basic karmic difference between square and semi square to the nodes?




Hi Ari,

 First, we need to discriminate between the word 'karma' and the natural evolutionary process, intention and necessity,  that all Souls go through. In context of an Avatar there is  no karma no matter what symbols you see in their charts. There is evolutionary intentions and necessities which of course is proved by the nature of their lives.
 Second, semi-squares to the nodes do not correlate with 'skipped steps'. And the reason is that the nature of the archetypes , the evolutionary process therein, are different than squares. If you have a copy of Wolf's second volume of Pluto there is a section in it where he describes the nature of the 360 cycle and all the phases and aspects that take place within it from an evolutionary point of view.

 In the example of my relative, what kind of observations could possibly lead to such a conclusion?

 What conclusion are you referring to in your relatives chart Ari ?

 Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: PamS on May 20, 2009, 12:33 PM
Hi Rad,

can we just clarify... That a "skipped step" square to the nodes does not mean "Karma"  correct? .. skipped steps is very different from karma.....


thanks,

pam


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 21, 2009, 09:18 AM
Hi Rad,

can we just clarify... That a "skipped step" square to the nodes does not mean "Karma"  correct? .. skipped steps is very different from karma.....


thanks,

pam

HI Pam,
  Well, heck, it really depends on how we wish to use and apply the word 'karma'. For me Karma is simply the natural law of each cause having an effect, every desire correlating to an action taken that creates an equal or proportionate reaction: cause and effect. Throw a pebble in the pond and it creates ripples. Skipped steps do not happen by themselves. There is a Soul making choices that have effects to those choices. Thus, from this point of view the effects of the choices equaling skipped steps could be seen as the karmic consequence to those choices. From my point of view karma just is. How we 'judge' karma as is 'good' or 'bad' karma is of course a subjective issue.

  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: PamS on May 21, 2009, 10:07 AM
Hi Rad,

Well yes, by your definition then one could say that an avatar who has evolutionary intent also has Karma right?  Like Yogahanda who had the evolutionary intent to understand that there is evil in the world could also be his Karma...using Karma in a big way not- good/bad way correct?  I guess I have never seen the skipped steps as "karma", just as things we forgot or did not get right... but one could use karma in that very benign way too....  The word Karma had such baggage, i like to know what people think!!!!


thanks,  i think i asnwered my own question...

pam



Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 21, 2009, 02:22 PM
Quote
First, we need to discriminate between the word 'karma' and the natural evolutionary process, intention and necessity,  that all Souls go through. In context of an Avatar there is  no karma no matter what symbols you see in their charts. There is evolutionary intentions and necessities which of course is proved by the nature of their lives.

1. There is no karma for an avatar bc they are beyond any binding to causality? meaning the rules of cause and effect no longer apply. Like throwing a pebble in water- it may turn into a lotus flower.

2. so my understand is, an avatar can have any chart. we just have to understand WHY they have that chart. in the case of my relative, what kind of observations would lead to the conclusion that she was an avatar?


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 22, 2009, 10:48 AM
Hi Rad,

Well yes, by your definition then one could say that an avatar who has evolutionary intent also has Karma right?  Like Yogahanda who had the evolutionary intent to understand that there is evil in the world could also be his Karma...using Karma in a big way not- good/bad way correct?  I guess I have never seen the skipped steps as "karma", just as things we forgot or did not get right... but one could use karma in that very benign way too....  The word Karma had such baggage, i like to know what people think!!!!


thanks,  i think i asnwered my own question...

pam



Hi Pam,
  Well this is why I mentioned that all of us need to be very , very careful is our use of the word karma and what it actually is or means. Relative to Yogananda and his 'lesson' of learning about 'evil the only way I would use the word karma is if indeed he has made a prior life CHOICE , a willful choice, to not believe in or grasp the reality of evil. If that was the case then I would certainly use the word karma for what he then had to go through and endure in his life as Yogananda as it relates to evil be forcefully in his life in a variety of circumstances. On the other hand, if he had not made the prior life choice then I would understand his encounters with evil as a necessary ongoing evolutionary process, intention, for his Soul to continue to evolve.
  This is just how I try to approach this issue in order to affect some kind of discrimination is the use and application of the work karma , and the natural laws behind it.

  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 22, 2009, 10:58 AM
Hi Ari,

Quote
First, we need to discriminate between the word 'karma' and the natural evolutionary process, intention and necessity,  that all Souls go through. In context of an Avatar there is  no karma no matter what symbols you see in their charts. There is evolutionary intentions and necessities which of course is proved by the nature of their lives.

1. There is no karma for an avatar bc they are beyond any binding to causality? meaning the rules of cause and effect no longer apply. Like throwing a pebble in water- it may turn into a lotus flower.


 When I shared earlier about Avatar's not having 'karma' I should have been more specific in that what they do have no EARTHLY karma. Most still do have karma from the point of view of the Astral and Causal realms.



2. so my understand is, an avatar can have any chart. we just have to understand WHY they have that chart. in the case of my relative, what kind of observations would lead to the conclusion that she was an avatar?


 Who made that conclusion ? Nothing that I shared before made such a conclusion. I was simply talking about the nature of skipped steps in her case and compensating for her natural nature.


  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 22, 2009, 01:48 PM
Quote
When I shared earlier about Avatar's not having 'karma' I should have been more specific in that what they do have no EARTHLY karma. Most still do have karma from the point of view of the Astral and Causal realms.

2. so my understand is, an avatar can have any chart. we just have to understand WHY they have that chart. in the case of my relative, what kind of observations would lead to the conclusion that she was an avatar?

 Who made that conclusion ? Nothing that I shared before made such a conclusion. I was simply talking about the nature of skipped steps in her case and compensating for her natural nature.

As you wrote, in the case of an avatar there is no karma (earthly at least) no matter what symbols we see in their chart. So my question is purely theoretical: IF she was an avatar, what kind of observations would indicate that?

point of clarification: squares to the nodes indicate choices that have lead to the conditions of what we call a skipped step. If in a past life there were no choices to necessitate such a condition, it is still possible, in a current life, to have planets squaring the nodes. Can you explain to me WHY an avatar would choose that?
Thank you for spending time on this Rad. I really appreciate it.




Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 23, 2009, 09:48 AM
Hi Ari,

Quote
When I shared earlier about Avatar's not having 'karma' I should have been more specific in that what they do have no EARTHLY karma. Most still do have karma from the point of view of the Astral and Causal realms.

2. so my understand is, an avatar can have any chart. we just have to understand WHY they have that chart. in the case of my relative, what kind of observations would lead to the conclusion that she was an avatar?

************************************************************************

 Yes, first in the case of an Avatar it is essential to understand that WHY in their CONTEXT. And the use of EA, properly understood and applied, does provide for that answer. In the cases of Avatars the only observation that can occur is the observation of the individual Soul itself. No form of astrology, including EA, can say , of itself as in just looking at symbols in paper, can say who is and is not an Avatar.


****************************************************************************

point of clarification: squares to the nodes indicate choices that have lead to the conditions of what we call a skipped step. If in a past life there were no choices to necessitate such a condition, it is still possible, in a current life, to have planets squaring the nodes.

****************************************************************************


 It is , in fact, not possible to have planet(s) squaring the Nodes in the current life in which the prior life choices were not made symbolizing and indicating 'skipped steps'. This is, indeed, exactly why a planet(s) are squaring the nodes in the current life birth chart.

***************************************************************************


 Can you explain to me WHY an avatar would choose that?

**************************************************************************


 Ari, there can be no one answer of course .. each case is unique to itself ....

**************************************************************************


Thank you for spending time on this Rad. I really appreciate it.


  You are more than welcome Ari .. I think it's great that you are asking such questions ......




  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Lia on May 25, 2009, 11:32 AM
Hi Ari,

May I add a few things to this very interesting thread..?.
In the case of your relative and also in general I think it is important to understand that NO MATTER what the soul may chose and for what reasons, the KNOWLEDGE it embraced once can not and will NOT  go away...yeah,  may be hidden, suppressed etc. but in essence it will be there...

For example, being an "avatar" means at minimum, being in the 3rd stage of the spiritual. The underlying COMPLEX knowledge about life in general and about the divine in particular will be STILL there.
That's your first virgo (checking the facts!) point in order to see the actual reality of the whole picture...to try to put the pieces together in order to observe someone’s actual reality. Not the outer reality for that can be anything...but the actual inner knowledge the actual inner reality if you know a person you can have at least some sort of feel of that actual reality. So if someone had the knowledge of being an avatar even if they would lead the most humble householder life the actual WISDOM in their communication will be reflected...if not relative to their lives but CERTAINLY relative to other people’s lives.

Another thing  I wanted to add to this is the fact that in today's society a lot of people ASSUME a lot "knowledge" they actually don't have......sorry to say....

So on that note, I would suggest to check the source of information before considering/wondering if it can be true or not.....
 These kind of "statements" I heard from many of my clients who have been greatly confused by all kinds of "psychics" who claim themselves far more than they actually are...sorry to say but this is the nature of reality we live AT THIS very segment of time......aquarian age is just rising...people try to accelerate their consciousness but in reality those who haven’t really done some real work on that before may end up in personal delusions...Why? Uranus’ role in the chart is trying to accelerate consciousness, in order to bring the soul closer to neptune....yet, when it is based on misunderstandings personal delusions of some kind may happen either partially, in fragmented way or sometimes even fully.... people who think they are far ahead than where they actually are...

This is also true to in general to the individuated state of consciousness for the same reason uranus, acceleration issues....some bits of consciousness is ahead and some bits are far behind...fragmented ...the result is a misunderstanding...

So please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to doubt the very probable fact from your relative's charts that she is far above the consciousness level relative to the ENVIRONMENT she lives in...this is very likely from her chart.......I am just saying it is always worthwhile to apply a method of checking the facts left and right before we assume anything ...

Like one of the things I learnt via my own evolution is the importance of asking the right question for without that we can never receive the answer that we are really looking for:-)

In simple terms, what I am trying to say is just that being fully conscious is a very very rare occurrence, people even before they get "fully conscious" will be teaching and helping others for life times in one way or another......and that knowledge doesn't go away. Check that reality with your relative that’s one direction....

The other direction (I have gemini s.node I have learned to never settle with one side only:-)) is the what I said above, checking the source of information; like what I can tell you from my own personal experience as a counselor not one client of mine has been previously mislead by all kinds of “psychic” readings...amongst other things I heard the exact SAME statement given to one of my clients THE EXACT SAME.... interesting isn’t that? So many people appear to be “fully conscious” before and what can be the reason they lost it....?

Well, if you don’t mind I offer what I offered in essence to my client: from the QUALITY of the advice the “psychic” was giving it can actually traced BACK the psychic level of consciousness...
Because that’s the bottomline to me in essence...let me explain this: if the person was able to give a really useful advice which the person to whom they “read” was able to use in a constructive way if that had the answer for their inner dilemma, if that was really point out the direction where they felt deep in their soul they were suppose to go, than the person certainly knew what they were talking about...
If the person gave no useful advice in essence and ended up with a statement like the above ...well be very careful that’s all I can say...

And in all honesty I would even give these “psychics” the benefit of the doubt that some may not even do this out of bad intention, simply they say what may occur true them with the consciousness they have....

Imagine: what's happening when a 1st or second individuated soul perceives intuitively that the person they are giving "reading to” is actually far above their own consciousness level? (We need to understand that none of us really able to even GRASP what is far above us evolutionary..) 

Can you see what I mean? A person in the 1st or 2nd individuated can easily make horrendous mistakes about those who are truly above their current level of consciousness. That's why even when the motivation is not to deceit and mislead it can end in just that.....

A 1st spiritual soul for example is far from being "fully conscious" Yet a 1st individuated soul who may give them a "reading" may perceive intuitively something important about that...yet they are perceiving it in the 1st or 2nd state individuated.....to THEM a 1st spiritual appears like they somehow know everything in essence that the individuated searching for....with that misinterpreted/misunderstood “truth” they can make such statement like the above...

This typically what happened to a few clients of mine by the way:-) When I asked them about the other aspects of the reading and pointed out the lack of understanding of the person who gave the reading how A doesn’t connect to B in their reading and pointed out what’s missing they understood and realised they went to a person who even with their best intention simply is UNABLE TO REALLY HELP THEM. Why? Because those clients were typically 1st spiritual and the person giving reading to them was individuated....

Also, souls in the 1st spiritual usually will never even make such horrendous statements...simply because THEIR UNDERSTANDING of what this really mans is light-years broader than the individuated or consensus person...so they won’t be making such claim out of the blue....(at least usually and if they are a bit more in the 1st spiritual not just entered it out of the last stage of individuated for that very beginning  the soul still has a bit of the self importance that is of course the nature of the individuated ladder)

Al this to me points to the lower consciousness levels of the “psychic” who gave such statements...of course again that’s just my opinion based on my experiences...it is just my view offered for consideration....

Usually things are coming out perceiving a little bit of truth and mixing it with a little bit (or more than a little bit:-) of misunderstanding...it is the nature of our humanness....then we try to sort it out and see if it leads somewhere:-))

Unfortunately, the evolutionary ladder has an interesting paradox: the least souls know from the lower to the middle levels of evolution the MORE they are convinced they know it all....the higher the soul grows on that “ladder” the more it learns about how much it DIDN‘T know and what kind of misunderstanding that caused...so the more it knows the more it quietens and becomes more humble:-)

A soul with true vision will never ever give such a statement WITHOUT pointing out the ways what the other person needs to do ...like Babaji pointed out perfectly what Lahiry Mahasaya was suppose to do...did the psychic do anything like that? If not I would suggest doubting at least a little how relevant the information may be and what could be total mistake and maybe a little bit of truth behind it...

I hope it is okay to share my thoughts on this Ari and you wouldn’t take it in the wrong way??

Love and blessings,

Lia


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 25, 2009, 06:23 PM
Hi Rad,
Quote
point of clarification: squares to the nodes indicate choices that have lead to the conditions of what we call a skipped step. If in a past life there were no choices to necessitate such a condition, it is still possible, in a current life, to have planets squaring the nodes.

****************************************************************************


 It is , in fact, not possible to have planet(s) squaring the Nodes in the current life in which the prior life choices were not made symbolizing and indicating 'skipped steps'. This is, indeed, exactly why a planet(s) are squaring the nodes in the current life birth chart.

right, but an avatar CAN incarnate with squares to the nodes, correct?

Hi Lia
Quote
I hope it is okay to share my thoughts on this Ari and you wouldn’t take it in the wrong way??
not at all dear! i appreciate your thoughts.

im not interested in determining whether the psychic is correct or not or knowing the source of the information. I'm interested in the questions that arose from what she told me.






Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 26, 2009, 10:43 AM
Hi Ari,

"right, but an avatar CAN incarnate with squares to the nodes, correct" ?


************************

 yes...........a perfect example is Jesus himself .. Mercury squaring his Nodes .. Mercury being in Aquarius ..

Rad



Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Lia on May 26, 2009, 02:57 PM
Hi All,

I've just been reading through this part of evolutionary necessity
and karma question and "coincidentally" it closely relates to some of
the experiences I am having right now in my life .....I have tr. pluto on my sun ??? :o

Anyway, in regards to this I’d like to add my views, hope that's
okay...?? :-)

I think there is no differentiation in essence between karma and
evolutionary necessity...it may SEEM like but only if we looking at
a little segment of evolution and not the whole lot where
everything connects to everything...

For every evolutionary necessity leads to karma, and every karmic
condition meant to promote evolution...therefore it represents
evolutionary necessity at the end....One comes out of the other and
then connects back to it...like everything in creation.....

Evolutionary necessity means that, there is something the soul has
to embrace that it hasn't yet. So needs to learn something that it
didn't know before. When that is resisted it will be missing from
the intended consciousness...and that leads to consequences.
For anything WE DONT KNOW or didn't embrace yet is and WAS part of
our overall consciousness and based on that we made choices that
lead to actions of some kinds and that is what creating our
karma...
Is it not so Rad?

To me it seems, the need to overcome the whatever limitation that
create the "evolutionary necessity" is coming out of the mistakes
of past choices and actions.....of course there is a difference
doing something deliberately “wrong” or doing it out of a
misunderstanding false belief getting something half right half wrong etc...yet both leads to consequences and
that's the point. Karma is simply the consequences of all our past
choices..good and bad....all together.....yet ALL that is for
evolutionary purposes thus it is evolutionary necessity....

With a very simple example: let say a Mormon (or whatever
religious) mother doesn’t allow her child to be given blood because
she TRULY believes it is a sin to interfere and her child will be
healed by god and will be punished if interference allowed. She
sincerely wants the very best for her child relative to her
beliefs, consciousness level and knowledge that she has at that
time. And of course the result is that the child dies. What a
trauma and disillusionment. More than likely it will take life
times for the soul to recover want on earth happened here.

But question is: is this “evolutionary necessity” or “karma”?
For I think it is both...can not be otherwise...I think it is
always both
Of course there is a difference if the mother wanted to kill her
child. But what if she didn’t and yet she still did by the choice
and the actions she made based on confusion, misbelief etc. This
too will create karma and not so easy for sure.

Yet it can be very easily misunderstood if we differentiate between
the two let say in one reading it may sounds like she didn’t do
anything wrong (well she did out of misunderstanding) or the other
way around, saying she has a horrible karma for killing her
child...

I think both view would lack the other part of the truth...

I think none of them will be true in itself...and evolution if
filled with actions out of misunderstandings of all kinds...

If we looking at the deeper aspect of human evolution and
understand that every single choice is always a mixture of right
and wrong beliefs for we are never fully aware of everything there
is always something for us to learn...this I think is the key...

Like let a soul have been extremely sadistic in past lives...and
done horrendous things to  many others...however the soul’s
consciousness was consensus and was not able to think for itself
although it still has personal responsibility of course as each of
us do. Yet in the bigger picture it seems to me the fact needs to
be taken into consideration that the soul was not able to see it’s
own downfall it didn't have the capacity in the consensus state. So
it got deeper and deeper into denial because the soul felt
absolutely horrible and it didn’t know why. It didn't know anything
better but the consensus and followed that... was trying to ever
more forcefully get rid of what it thought was the problem:
others... And yet everthing got worst...the rage and anger lead to
soul to torture and harm many people BUT THAT WAS THE WAY CONSENSUS LEADERS OPERATED..all of them...one justified the other. Again the soul could not think for itself. So while there is a lot of
negative karma it is not only that it also fuels the evolutionary
necessity to come out of the 3rd consensus and out of the inner
horror the soul feels which actually accelerates evolution...

So the karma itself becomes the very heart of evolutionary
necessity even in this case....to embrace something to
consciousness which will parashoot the soul to a totally different
level at the end...
I feel it would be a mistake to perceive this as a purely karmic
condition...it includes and leads to evolutionary necessity...

Does this make sense?

For I personally feel that it is really important to clarify this...I
feel that categorising things like evolutionary necessity and karma
are different things we may saw the old harmful seeds in a new way
leading to possible misunderstandings, like souls may continue the
deeply ingrained beliefs of inferiority/ superiority that damaged
ALL OF US so deeply for so long......

For example it may lead people to believe things like:
 "Oh, the square, opposition whatever, in my chart simply is an
evolutionary necessity while somebody elses square etc. is karma
meaning of course THEY have done something ‘wrong’ while I of
course have not.“
 
While others who have the inclination to the opposite side may
assume inwardly:
 “Oh I knew something was wrong with me, MY  squares etc. are
different, I MUST have done something wrong, while other people's
chart of course reflect only evolutionary necessity via their
stressful aspects."

Can you see what I mean Rad? .... hope it's okay to say this??

Love and blessings,

Lia


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on May 27, 2009, 09:33 AM
Hi Lia,

  Yes, of course, it's ok to say whatever you need or want to say, and, YES, I totally  understand what you are saying, and YES I also totally agree with what you are saying about this. And thanks so much for posting this.

  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Lia on May 28, 2009, 12:40 PM
Hi Rad,

Thanks for your answer;it's really great to know that you too agree.

Love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: PamS on May 28, 2009, 01:31 PM
Thank you Lia, Rad and Ari for the conversation,

I tend not to use the word Karma because of its vast misinterpretations- it upsets clients... I like that the conversation had merged these two ideas, since neither of the ideas are concrete....

thanks,

pam


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Stacie on May 28, 2009, 06:19 PM
Hi All,

Lia I understand what you’re saying also.  These concepts (karmic causes/evolutionary necessity) are easy to misapply and can create a lot trouble and misunderstanding when that happens.  But to me I think it’s important we don’t lose sight of the fact that these ARE distinct dynamics, otherwise what reason would Wolf have for attempting to teach about their distinctions?   Wolf has said that determining evolutionary necessity is simple to determine in the birth chart: it is reflected in every symbol that's connected to pluto in the natal signature.  He also made it clear that being able to determine karmic causes is NOT easy, and that there is no ‘technique’ that can be taught for making this determination.

The issue I think, is that they are so CLOSELY linked, so non-linear, and so nuanced, that it takes an extremely developed capacity to be able to KNOW which is which.  And even when karmic causes are accurately identified, one must have an absolute purity of intention and sensitivity/soul attunement when attempting to communicate something like karmic causes to another, because the individual may not be ready on an inner basis to hear or resolve the content.  To impose this kind of information upon someone who isn’t actually ready to deal with it creates the risk of generating the exact opposite effect that EA was brought forth to serve, as does imposing this kind of information when it has not been correctly interpreted in the first place. 

As I understand it, those who have the developed capacity/clarity to accurately identify actual karmic causes from evolutionary necessity will convey it on the basis of receiving the specific inner direction to do just that, and only unless.  So when it comes to the practical application of EA for most of us, I agree that it’s better to come from the simple standpoint you have stated: acknowledging that any emphasized dynamic in the soul/birthchart simply reflects the outcome of experiences and choices made therein..relative to intention, relative to evolutionary capacity..and that the existing dynamics are exactly what the soul needs for continuing on with its evolutionary growth. 

However, for those who are seeking to consciously expand spiritual awareness, I personally see tremendous value in contemplating karmic causes/evolutionary necessity as two distinct dynamics, because they are distinctions that are reflected in the mystery/nature/process of evolutionary law.  Each of us will eventually come to know within ourselves how these dynamics interact to facilitate the evolutionary journey as our own consciousness evolves, yet we can also make a proactive effort to open up to this understanding while we are literally in the process of getting there.  To me this reinforces the desire/intention of developing a more conscious relationship to the evolutionary impulse as it operates within ourselves, which also brings the capacity for perceiving how this operates in others.  This isn’t to say that we can *only* develop this type of perception by contemplating and defining the stupid concepts of ‘karmic causes’ and ‘evolutionary necessity’ (as if some kind of rigid prerequisite ;) ) ...I’m just pointing out that it's a relevant thing to make an effort to understand, and can provide this kind of value. 

It's very obvious that we’re both speaking to the same bottom line.  This is my version of the words that reflect how I understand it  :)

Blessings to you my friend...may that pluto/sun fusion of yours deepen and intensify the special purpose your life is serving, and bring forth the inner resources that will empower you in seizing the next level of your destiny...

Stacie


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: PamS on May 28, 2009, 07:56 PM
Hi all,

Stacie,  I would like for you to go into depth about how you see the difference between karma and evolutionary intent.  I would appreciate hearing how you differentiate the two.  I have studied this information for years and have done lots of past life work and my personal experience is that there is an overlapping that occurs where you cant distinguish between the two.  I just think they are messy and I'm willing and interested in hearing what people think about this.   



Thanks and blessings,

Pam


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: PamS on May 29, 2009, 10:19 AM
Hello,

Just one other thing to throw into the pot.  The differences between karmatic retrubution...Karma...evolutionary intent.  I think we might be confusing all of these.. It seems that Karma and Evolutionary intent have an overlapping, karmatic retribution is another story, but at the same time has a messy relatonship to evolutionary intent.  I just have not experienced these as clear cut.  I would think in a case of souls that are very "malignant" then it would be clear cut..
Would love to know what others think....

thanks,
blessings,

pam


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Lia on May 29, 2009, 10:44 AM
Hi Pam,

Great to know that you also do past life work...I too am a past life therapist so I have some really direct insights into this subject both ways, personally and via clients.....

Stacie,

I think I understand what you are saying. And indeed I agree that there is two "distinct force" in the soul which can be understood as one aspect that is "evolutionary intention or necessity" and the other as "karma" and they can be divided as different forces yet in ESSENCE they are just the different “ends“ of the one and same thing.......

For example we can divide intelligence and emotion ...indeed they appear to be something  different...point is just that the difference relative to this division is RELATIVE to the POINT OF VIEW from where we’re looking at it...can you see what I mean?

For if we looking at the WHOLE it is not CONSCIOUSNESS  ITSELF hat has these things...AND able to looking at itself from one and the other...am I looking at myself from my “head“ or “tale“...and consciousness indeed able to do that......in order to understand itself it looks itself from one end of the “equation” and than the other...and yet it is all one and the same...it is CONSCIOUSNESS itself that has it both and it can’t divide itself into that two halves for it has it both and that “two” is actually dependent upon each other and evolves via this inherent connections...is it not true that as we change our understanding including our understanding of our own emotions those very emotions as a RESULT will evolve and will metamorphose? AND the opposite way around: some feelings, some emotions coming from deep within us can in a split second clarify something we were not able to get intellectually no matter how hard we tried.....so one is fom the other and leads back to the other and vice versa...

Anyway, back to the issue: as you pointed out Wolf recognised the very essence of evolutionary necessity, as the underlying propelling force of the Soul (pluto). Which is an absolute truth of course, it is the heart of EA and evolution itself. Well if it wouldn’t be if there will be only “karma” just itself we won’t learn anything to be honest...we will repeat the same old things get knocked out as a consequence and it will be nothing else just some really meaningless punishment if you really really think about it....sometimes we even appear like that I must add:-) but appear is the keyword here....for it’s not true in the larger scheme of the things...

It is actually the greatness of Wolf’s work his breathtakingly marvellous intuitive faculty that helped me, as well as SO many to understand the underlying truths relative to my own soul, and again the truth of many others as well.

On that note, let’s remember that Wolf also pointed out the fact that anything to do with karma also correlates to the same symbol: pluto of course, The soul. So can you see what this means in regards to this discussion?

He also pointed out a different aspect of the same plutonian dual truth: the soul has a DUAL desire nature two opposite forces that drives the soul from the beginning and what happens on the evolutionary journey is that one direction of this desire nature will eventually replace the other.

I’d like to put the same very essential truth in a different way: we can perceive this as one direction of the desire nature will MERGE, EMBRACE THE OTHER. Then we have the same end haven’t we?
I.e. as long as one part of me wants something different than the other parts of me, I am in inner "battle" indeed....than take over maybe the solution.....IF  however it is possible that at one point ALL parts of "me" as a soul want the absolute same one desire, I am at absolute peace .....is that not true?

(i.e. this is the major difference between the way of the patriarchy and the way of the matriarchy relative to spiritual development and offered endorsed ways to get there.....yet both fundamental approaches are VALID paths...in essence patriarchy is based on capr.= disciplining the senses and emotions.......in essence the matriarchy's way was the opposite, cancer=using to absolute TOTALITY of the senses and emotions and their intensity......well at the end both will arrive at the same place, and even more both will embrace each other....but ..anyway...that's another "book" ;D )


Again it is just a matter of PERCEPTION from which point are we viewing it from, which is closest to us at any point of time and space..... which has nothing to do with the underlying truth in it, it just another way of understanding/perceiving the same truth in the middle.....

One starts from the elephant’s head so to speak the other starts from it’s tale...if they both persistent enough to follow where that truth leads they found the same one truth....yet on the way they may appear as if they were talking about two totally different things....but were they?

Something like that is what I mean...
But of course I am more than open and curious to hear your thoughts further on this subject...

And on a personal level Stacie: THANKS SO VERY MUCH for your beautiful words....they are so true and touch me so deeply you have no idea....god/ess bless your wonderful soul!

Much love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Steve on May 30, 2009, 12:37 AM
Quote
in essence patriarchy is based on capr.= disciplining the senses and emotions.......in essence the matriarchy's way was the opposite, cancer=using to absolute TOTALITY of the senses and emotions and their intensity......

I'd like to add my ten cents to that, from insights I came to some time back.  What we think/feel of Capricorn is our experiences in patriarchal reality of Capricorn, where the archetype has been totally distorted. 

Most people, when thinking of Capricorn, do they see it as masculine or feminine?  In our time, the majority, without thinking, would probably say it is masculine, the essence of hierarchical consensus.  Yet Capricorn is a FEMININE sign. Thus, what we experience of Capricorn has little to do with the natural archetype of undistorted Capricorn.

I began to ponder, "what would the undistorted Capricorn archetype look like?". 

Lia said the undistorted Cancer is "using to absolute TOTALITY of the senses and emotions and their intensity".  Capricorn, the polarity of Cancer, represents structure.  Thus the undistorted Capricorn would be the structures we would naturally create to allow us to live aligned with the natural Cancer emotional energies - structures that would be harmonious with, supportive of, living in those ways.  In essence, how the Goddesss intended reality to be structured. 

This begins shedding a whole new light on Capricorn.  It opens a door through which we can begin forgiving Capricorn, releasing the judgments we have placed on Capricorn.  The problem has never been Capricorn.  The problem is what humans have done with (and to) Capricorn. Those are two very different things.    I saw that the more I truly embrace this way of looking at it, the more I become part of the forces working to redirect Capricorn energy back to its intended ways, structures that serve and support our evolutionary unfoldings.

This also explains what someone like Yogananda would do with a 10th house Pluto, a very different experience than the majority would have.


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 30, 2009, 12:53 AM
i loved that steve.

is the following an appropriate relationship between evolutionary necessity and karma:
pluto in the second naturally implies an evolutionary neccesity...
i am eating lots of sugar... or I am practicing qi gong.
both create consequences (karma) which in turn serve as a potential catalyst for evolution.

viola?


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Lia on May 31, 2009, 06:56 AM
Hi All,

Steve, what you said about capr. is very true ...it is all about structure indeed...Question is what kind of structure...as for the cancer/capr. axis there is so much to it ...but the bottomline is perhaps to ask ourselves which part of the cancer/capr. equation has been really distorted in patriarchy? What happened here....was it distorted from the capr. end or from the cancer end?

Because of course no matter which will be distorted first both end will be distorted as a result. It's just that the capr. end will always show the social consequences...however lets just look into the real reasons....what has been distorted here and how....


For this we need understand this axis: cancer is the personal emotional awareness of our being, and capr. the polarity is as a vital PART of our emotional awareness. It is but our individual emotional SOCIAL AWARENESS...it’s a long story I wrote an article about this I will put that up in the blog it’s too long here:-)
But in essence I wanted to say: it is not capricorn we need to learn to forgive...it’s NOT social awareness (embracing all the material resources of the time and space reality that we live in)  applied with seriously contemplated responsibility that went OUT OF PROPORTION and became ENLARGED as the leading force in patriarcy. It is the very opposite what happened here, it is the total LACK OF IT. That's what needs to be forgiven and relative to this axis what is that what needs forgiveness at the first place?
It is the absolutely distorted PERSONAL EGOCENTRIC sense of SELF-IMPORTANCE in those few, in whom the opposite end of this axis has gone TOTALLY OUT OF PROPORTION, And that is cancer of course, what has been ENLARGED HERE IS THEIR EGOS; CANCER.

That's what really happened here cancer went out of proportion not capr. Then of course this resulted in an absolute distortion to both end of the equation.....when one end is distorted of anything the other end will be distorted also.

So when cancer is totally enlarged in a human being, when the personal emotional needs are not restricted boundaries that can give it the healthy and natural DISCIPLINE and PROPORTION relative to the social whole it lives in, i.e. balance by the needs of the others, what’s happening? Well what’s happening is WHAT we see for the last few thousands of years...

That's EXACTLY what’s happening....a few EGOS, a few FAMILIES became the ruler of the world via their egocentric sense of importance with a total LACK of any social awareness and any sense of real responsibility. If they can enforce (scorpio!! soul where the enlarged ego is descending from!) that kind of an “order” the world will become upside down. AND IT CERTAINLY HAS.  

Those on the other hand who have the capr. end of the axis distorted, enlarged IF THE DISTORTION STARTS FROM THERE it will result in a very different occurrence: it will create an infinite sense of responsibility and duty to take any BURDEN WHATSOEVER...why? Because distorting enlarging it from THIS end, will of course also hit back on the other end. What that will be? It will be the total LACK of personal egocentric sense of emotional awareness and any importance attached to it. Enlarge capricorn and cancer will be lacking.....enlarge cancer and capr. will be lacking.

That's the real issue here.....
Look at the incredible NUMBER of souls who have bee doing the MAJORITY of all the work on this planet for the last few thousands of years. Well, THEY ARE THE ONES who had the capr. end totally enlarged in them. They were and ARE the SLAVES of this world in one form or another with an absolute zero sense of personal emotional needs and any feeling that they have any egocentric importance whatsoever. The sense of absolute self importance has it's opposite it is the sense of absolute DUTY for the whatever social unit they find themselves in....their personal egocentric sense of being will be literally squeezed out, dry and wither. Their time (life) in the form is for one reason: to work to perform the duties they are given to...by whom? Of course distorted cancer...the "divine child" who deserves everything....
Capr. is the sign which actually correlates to the real workers, the silent slaves and servants of the world in patriarchy....

Just one example on this: let’s remember that cancer is also feeding....and now lets make a little counting in our head, how many people on this earth do not have enough to eat and dying from hunger EVEN TODAY?
Let's just ponder what could be happening to their cancer archetype within their consciousness in order to HAVE that kind of experience? How many times it must have been repeated in order to get use to it to be drawn to that kind of reality (again) ? Just a question to ponder...what can be on the other side of their cancerian lack...what could have happened to their capr. end of the equation?

The natural cancer, the balancing part of the equation (that is simply the inner natural knowledge that we are a child of the Divine, while capr. is the other side of the equation which tells us that ALL around us are also from the Divine therefore we have serious responsibility towards them) so when cancer the personal sense of being "important" has been dried out they will exclude themselves without even knowing it...this is what happens in essence when the axis is distorted FROM the capr. end....

While those who leading these kinds of societies are the very opposite: let's just look one example like G.W. Bush and lets's examine this from this point of view: in his chart we can see the very underlying reasons as what had happened all along the way in the patriarchy: the VERY OPPOSITE end has been enlarged so enormously that it left absolute zero social awareness and responsibility. He has moon in the 3rd conj. neptune; of course he thinks he is a direct descendent of the divine...problem is that the person thinks ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY THEY ARE divine descendent and nobody else! That's what the lack of capr. produces....Cancer, moon is about the self the ego. His cancer falls in the 12th house! The same repeating pattern it is so deeply ingrained in his consciousness he doesn’t even know it anymore. Then alas, there is saturn (also conj. to lucifer!) in the 12th in cancer: he feels he has NO other responsibility than what his immediate family tells him and above all what his egocentric emotional needs are about. It became a total ABSOLUTE to him. He feels he has an absolute god given right to all that....and of course capr. falls to his 6th house! All responsibility has been totally denied and his life would need so much improvement in this area BUT he has no idea with that sat. conj. lucifer in the 12th in cancer. NO sense of capr. no sense of RESPONSIBILITY remained in the soul whatso ever. Lets look at his 10th house: aries cusp and taurus in it. Are we surprised? it is all about self interest AT ALL COST ..meaning of course all cost for the social sphere that suppose to serve (10th house) his individual needs. And yet he feels his individual desires are the very valid way to operate in the social sphere...Delusion attached to moon and cancer. Result being capr. is totally LACKING in his consciousness.

In essence THAT'S THE REAL ISSUE in patriarchy all the way along.  While on the other hand the slaves, the servants (and women in general!) for the last few thousands years have been conditioned to have an absolutely enlarged unhealthy sense of capr. to the extent of totally ruining their personal sense of emotional awareness regarding themselves....

So my question is: do we need to forgive them forgive their distorted sense of capr? Or do we need to forgive the out of proportion cancer in those who run our world during patriarchy?

For to me, it is the immature, unreasonable demanding, boundariless CHILD in them the enlarged stupid little EGO what has grown out of proportion and killed any sense of real carp. in them their original natural sense of RESPONSIBILITY within the time and space creation with a structure that supposed to support ALL...not just them.

The structure that has been created in this way is cancer-based. Not capricorn based. That's the real difference between patriarchy and matriarchy. There is no responsibility in patriarchy and there is natural responsibility in matriarchy. Only applying natural responsibility the senses can be used correctly with their full intensity....the divine or spiritual approach is ALWAYS THE OPPOSITE than the relative earth experience or structure....It is indeed very important to apply self discipline (capr.) in patriarchy BECAUSE in reality we live in a cancerian out of proportion reality.
In a capr. based= social awareness and responsibility based society sharing and equality isn't even a notion: it is so obvious it doesn't need to be talked about. Of course we are all equal on the time and space reality of course we are ALL children of the divine....responsibility for the whole simply comes out of this. Society itself proves it via simply living that time and space reality within the commonly shared structure of being RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL. When everybody is naturally responsible there is not even a notion for responsibility. It just is. People when conform to THAT what will they learn? Will that diminish one's ego and enlarge the other? Or will that actually teach the right thing for the children via simple example that can consciously perceived and doesn't even need so much pondering for it is so obvious. You can ruin a tree if you want its fruits the next season. You can't kill all the animals for they are part of our earth (saturn!) family and we'll have nothing to eat then. It is all simple as long as society is based on a shared responsibility which includes all who live in that time and space reality.

When we live by that capricornian reality it becomes so obvious that we have a common root, a common source, a common mother who takes care of us. Spirituality in a capr. reality will always be MOTHER centered. Capr. points to cancer, the divine origin the mother the life giver of all. It is shared by all in that reality....it is the OTHER SIDE of the equations. That's what completes the earth (saturn, capr. time and space, creation in a form) reality when it is in balance it reaches back to it's origin to it's simple source the life giving power, the "mother" of all which lives in a from. It is experienced via the emotions within a healthy, responsibility based structure. Emotions can be accessed by the senses indeed. That was in essence the matriarchy's way for COMPLETION in a truly earthly (capricorn) reality...cancer in its highest form was the spiritual essence that completed this structure. It isn't cancer based it is cancer REACHED.


As for the patriarchy we have the very opposite here: the cancerian tantrum, immature childish demand coming out as a rage that one’s own egocentric needs must be met at ALL COST....
Perceiving oneself with no social awareness as a divine child and based on that sense thinking it is the one and only divine child...there is no sharing and no responsibility when ONE person deluding itself to personify something like that...and what our societies based on if not that? This is cancer based, EXCLUSION based structure. Cancer in itself without the balancing awareness of capr. is just like that. The personal sense of importance, the emotional and otherwise needs etc. take totally over the ego who is now identifying itself with being the one and only "divine"....within a protective shelter......everybody else is outside of its "divine shield" except maybe a few family members who of course believe in the same.....

Just one simple example; don’t even has to be a royal family, just a middle class family somewhere 150 years ago...a little kid of the family has a tantrum at an adult servant for whatever reason...what was the result? Who had to apologise? The child who is the "master" or the adult who had done nothing but serving that family day and night usually for all of its life....who had the upper hand and why? Who had any sense of responsibility and who were conditioned to never have any? Who is out of proportion cancer and who is out of proportion capr here?
And that’s just one tiny miny example....I let the rest to your imagination:-)

If we think it is capr. who needs forgiveness that would mean we don't even question this reality in essence, we out of "compassion" forgive the servant and allow it to continue to serve instead of firing it...or killing it a few hundreds years backward in time....
 
Capr. is about work...who done the work basically ALL the work on this planet for the last few thousands of years? Our leaders or the people, the slaves, the servants, the wives, and then so called “lower class” (well after they were liberated from being slaves)

We are living in an upside down reality...it is NOT CAPR. that leads this world it is actually CANCER...the enlarged out of proportion sick unhealthy cancer/ego of a few who rely on their ability to manipulate and enslave the rest ....a structure that serves nothing but that few cancer (ego) on the very top while the WHOLE STRUCTURE the time and space reality is falling apart...what's falling apart is capricorn....the EARTH reality and its OVERALL STRUCTURE....look around, the climate, the animals, the trees, the land...what is that if not the original capricorn earth structure?
And for what? For a few stupid enlarged egos who wanted to replace the original capricorn order the social and earth awareness with their egocentric importance based structure...that's where it leads when there is no responsibility when everything is about one's own emotional needs........

 I think capr. needs something very different than forgiveness...it needs to be PLACED BACK TO WHERE IT BELONGS...TO LEAD SOCIETY WITH TRUE RESPONSIBILITY (and that's never one person via capr. it is always but always shared by others who have a real developed sense of social responsibility for ALL others) ...and eventually replace the dangerous, stupid immature egos who got a hold of the world and are killing it and killing their and our shared mother......symbolically and literally as well...

Gees...SORRY this became so long!  :-[ ::)

Love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: ari moshe on May 31, 2009, 06:06 PM
found another avatar with a planet squaring the nodes:
Amma!

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJw1TsEKwyAU-5rd3kAtXXHyDjuNnQfb-bW-qbRKqXalfz97GLkkJCTZwhhQGReRpEkWbzHS4APAB1QHGqRuGxD6KgX4lhsBbs0g4EXTFIaRvis8kg0E3YUbCTrV3Fr9CkO2TxT5X3loS4VRdSclnjwXjj0vlR8bZqLk0Jm-7HP9E4tHKpvxecezNEtG-b7_AJV3NU4 (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJw1TsEKwyAU-5rd3kAtXXHyDjuNnQfb-bW-qbRKqXalfz97GLkkJCTZwhhQGReRpEkWbzHS4APAB1QHGqRuGxD6KgX4lhsBbs0g4EXTFIaRvis8kg0E3YUbCTrV3Fr9CkO2TxT5X3loS4VRdSclnjwXjj0vlR8bZqLk0Jm-7HP9E4tHKpvxecezNEtG-b7_AJV3NU4)

saturn in libra in the 12th squaring leo aquarius nodes. it's amazing how PIVOTAL the planets that sqares the nodes are in a persons life... especially when that planet is actually realized.


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Dustybusty on Jun 02, 2009, 09:14 PM
Hey Ari!  This forum is great!  The more EA message boards, the better...  As if I don't already spend enough time on the computer. ::)

I hope you guys don't mind if I post!  I'm unfortunately joining right as this mars/nodes is T-squaring my natal saturn/mars square!  Oh well!  I'll try to be nice...


U might already know my personal interpretation of planets squaring the nodes.  I personally don't feel that they necessarily need to symbolize a step that was skipped, quite the contrary.  However, the "skipped step" situation will make sense in many situations.  As well, in a more dharmic sense perhaps, the planet squaring the nodes will truly be THE area where the person shines...

The reason for this, is basically because planets squaring the nodes are destined to receive an obscene amount of attention.  lol


The reason for this I suppose, astrologically, is because as you know, the lunar nodes are basically two points where the moon's orbit crosses the ecliptic.  As such, the two points SQUARING the nodes (heretofore unnamed to my knowledge) are the two points where the Sun and Moon's perceived orbit are furthest apart!


Soo, just as the nodes astrologically represent our orientation to our spiritual origin and spiritual destination (south and north nodes respectively), the points squaring the nodes symbolize the polarization of spirit into matter...  Basically an area of fervent kinetic manifestation! *yawn* 

The person is just basically charged to always manifest this planet moment-to-moment.



Just to add to the Capricorn/Cancer discussion, which was very nice by the way... a very simple way to think of Capricorn, I think, is just the inversion of Cancer, in an impersonal way.


It is about the way in which we handle our own emotions when confronted by, a sea basically, of mammalian emotion.  Haaa.  Its about how we handle other people's emotions... which we can relate to (cancer) but which are subject to a different (yet similar) origin and timing and whatnot.

For instance, we repress and shape/present our emotions everyday for the good of the community.  This is basic Capricorn!  For instance, if I'm blue and I decide to see a movie or something, I'm not going to sit in the back row and cry my ass off, even though I might really feel like it.  This is why Capricorn is awesome.

For instance, I'm going to respect your emotions, if your in a bad mood because you just got laid off or drank a bad smoothie or something and I'm going to repress the way I feel cause I just got a huge raise and ate a dewy cantaloupe.

Its all about dealing with other people's emotions quite simply.





Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Kristin on Jun 04, 2009, 11:29 AM
hello..

Quote
Quote from dustybusty
"U might already know my personal interpretation of planets squaring the nodes.  I personally don't feel that they necessarily need to symbolize a step that was skipped, quite the contrary.  However, the "skipped step" situation will make sense in many situations.  As well, in a more dharmic sense perhaps, the planet squaring the nodes will truly be THE area where the person shines..."

The reason that the skipped step may be an area as you say, 'where that Soul shines', and I emphasize the word 'MAY',  because the very nature of the skipped step reflects that a Soul has been stuck there, perhaps out of fear, or due to certain choices that have had certain repercussions such as themes of compensation. There are individual reasons for that  skipped step. Whatever planet that is squaring the nodal axis is literally under a microscope. There is no way to escape that focus. Any time a transiting planet moves into an angle of stress to that planet, it will also put stress on the nodes as well, forcing the Soul off the fence, either forward or back. SO yes of course when the Soul has the courage to really GO FOR IT, finally making choices that reflect progress, then of course the Soul will attract circumstances that allow one to naturally shine. That is how the universe works. It supports the natural path. But I know of no one whose path has been light relative to that planet making the square. The rewards are yes immense when the Soul tackles that tripping point but it does not come free.

As in Amma's case, Ari mentioned her above as an 'avatar' who has Saturn squaring the nodes. Her early life was not easy. People thought she was crazy. She would sit and meditate for hours and people literally thought there was something wrong with her. She received harsh judgements - Saturn. For a little girl that was not easy. SO yes she SHINES, but that did not come without some early hard hits. That also does not come without her heart bleeding and compassion for the suffering of the world. She carries the weight of the world in her heart. Saturn sq the nodes, SN Leo. Watch the movie DARSHAN and tell me that woman does not feel her Saturn square her nodes every minute of every day. Amma has some strong trines i.e. the ruler of her south node in Leo is the Sun. This trines her Moon and her North Node in Aquarius. which allows for an ease of integration of her Soul's purpose which is to lead the consensus back to a relationship (Saturn in Libra) with the natural God. To remember that God is naturally male and female.. Consensus is Saturn, squaring her nodes. To help people liberate from their own conditioning about the judging God. She embodies unconditional love and compassion. God in the female form.

The EA paradigm stands on its own. The concept of a planet squaring the nodes and it reflecting a Soul skipping steps has been taught and validated for over 30 years, not to mention the 30,000 readings that Jeff Green gave during his career,  a large percentage of those clients had this signature. The views expressed in Dusty's email re: planets squaring the nodes skipped steps does not represent the paradigm of EA as taught on this message board and in Jeffrey Wolf Green's writings and teachings. That is what this board is for, to discuss the actual teachings of EA. Dusty, you are of course entitled to your views but wanting to clarify for the sake of new students who may read his post in the future.

Graduate of EA and past life regression therapist Patricia Walsh is coming out with a book this summer that demonstrates the correlation between skipped steps in the chart as described in the EA paradigm and the ACTUAL past life regression experiences of 1000's of clients. You can read more about her work at www.healthepast.com. This book further confirms the EA of paradigm of skipped steps through the actual lives of people.

Peace,
Kristin


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Dustybusty on Jun 04, 2009, 05:25 PM
Oops!  Yea, I did sort of realize that this might not be the appropriate place to post alternate information after I read some of the discussions, they are very focused.  I do apologize.  Simply for the sake of clarifying what I meant though:

Quote
The reason that the skipped step may be an area as you say, 'where that Soul shines', and I emphasize the word 'MAY',  because the very nature of the skipped step reflects that a Soul has been stuck there...Whatever planet that is squaring the nodal axis is literally under a microscope. There is no way to escape that focus. Any time a transiting planet moves into an angle of stress to that planet, it will also put stress on the nodes as well, forcing the Soul off the fence, either forward or back.

I do understand that the planet squaring the nodes can represent areas that are quite problematic, stifling, and "on the fence" so to speak.  A reason that I gave for this metaphysically, is because the points squaring the nodes are the points where the sun and moon are furthest from each other in their respective orbits.  These points truly represent a polarization of the initial principle which started at the South Node (Source/origins) and ends at the North Node (Destination/source).  In a nutshell, creation, maya.

Now I understand that you feel that this squaring point is karmically a crucible, and I agree, however what I originally stated was that DHARMICALLY this point takes on a much more creative edge...

As you have said, this planet is "under a microscope."  I couldn't agree more.  In fact, this planet is at such a potent position, that whether you are looking under a microscope, or making progress in life forward or backward, the person with the planet squaring the nodes is ALWAYS going to be manifesting that planet moment to moment.  Now-Now-Now etc.  There is no way out of this in the person's lifetime whether they have taken this issue to god and truly integrated it or not...

The planet squaring the node ALWAYS has this powerful manifestation principle.  It is also always something that must be taken to god!

Quote
it will also put stress on the nodes as well, forcing the Soul off the fence, either forward or back.

Being "on the fence" and "skipping a step" are two completely different things.  Being on the fence implies stasis, skipping a step implies that you've deliberately shunted something necessary out of fear or opportunism.  What I think happens is that many people KARMICALLY are "on the fence,"  because they have skipped a necessary step, and now life has taken them to a place where they have no choice but to retrace their steps and do the unwanted thing.

BUT, do boddhisatva's get stuck?  Because that was sort of the original question that I was answering.  I feel that they do get stuck, but WILLFULLY out of service, not necessarily because they fucked something up. And WILL=CREATE.  They have already done all the steps, that is why they are boddhisatvas!!

Quote
But I know of no one whose path has been light relative to that planet making the square. The rewards are yes immense when the Soul tackles that tripping point but it does not come free.

100% agreed, nothing good here comes unless with serious dedication to love and serious disillusionment.  This applies to pretty much everything, any light a person has...

Let me give some quick examples of the planet squaring the nodes SHINING creatively!

Da Vinci: had his North Node in capricorn/1st (art), ruler Saturn squaring the nodes, conjunct neptune in libra/10, opposing mercury in aries.  All three of these planets are squaring the nodes...  We have Mercury in Aries/4th (Invention, artistic renderings) and saturn (here, mastery of form) conjunct Neptune (truly immortalized in the masses) in the 10th house.  Da Vinci-by popular consensus only wasn't quite "on the fence" with these planets.  He shines, and creates a monumental volume of work regarding them!


Bach:  The reason I mention Bach, was because the guy created a ridiculous amount of work...  He had Sun in Aries/12th squaring NN in cancer/3rd SN in capricorn/9th.  okay, we all know this guy wasn't on the fence about having kids (Sun), in fact quite the contrary, extremely fertile and extremely productive.  Many of us have recognised neptune/aries/venus prominence in musical talent!  Experts generally recognise his musical contributions as being the penultimate (sun in aries/12th) in baroque style. He also had the mercury/venus in 12th (intricate, gorgeous musical compositions).  He literally would never stop creating, this is why I included him.


Ron Jeremy:  I thought I'd take this down a consciousness level or two (j/k) so you could see that this principle even operates in karmic situations.  He is considered the "Hardest Working Man in the Business," by many.  His North node is in aquarius/1st conjunct moon, and is squared by Jupiter in taurus/3rd.
Now, he also has this mars/venus conjunction in aries/taurus opposing neptune in 8th which gives him the porn appeal/career I suppose despite looking rather Mole-y.  But what some of us might not know, is that he is extremely multifaceted (jupiter in 3rd) has tackled his masters degree (jupiter), and is a writer and artist.  You might also not knowthat he achieved his fame by being the best "woodsman" in the business.  Meaning he can literally control his orgasm, come on command to be exact.  His sexual staying power, his steadfast, overwhelming and multifaceted work ethic, his famous dick, ALL of that is intensely Jupiter in taurus/3rd sqquare the nodes.


God, I have a lot of time on my hands, but I actually just picked these three charts at random, looking for this square.  This principle works, bottom line.


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on Jun 05, 2009, 12:56 PM
found another avatar with a planet squaring the nodes:
Amma!

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJw1TsEKwyAU-5rd3kAtXXHyDjuNnQfb-bW-qbRKqXalfz97GLkkJCTZwhhQGReRpEkWbzHS4APAB1QHGqRuGxD6KgX4lhsBbs0g4EXTFIaRvis8kg0E3YUbCTrV3Fr9CkO2TxT5X3loS4VRdSclnjwXjj0vlR8bZqLk0Jm-7HP9E4tHKpvxecezNEtG-b7_AJV3NU4 (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJw1TsEKwyAU-5rd3kAtXXHyDjuNnQfb-bW-qbRKqXalfz97GLkkJCTZwhhQGReRpEkWbzHS4APAB1QHGqRuGxD6KgX4lhsBbs0g4EXTFIaRvis8kg0E3YUbCTrV3Fr9CkO2TxT5X3loS4VRdSclnjwXjj0vlR8bZqLk0Jm-7HP9E4tHKpvxecezNEtG-b7_AJV3NU4)

saturn in libra in the 12th squaring leo aquarius nodes. it's amazing how PIVOTAL the planets that sqares the nodes are in a persons life... especially when that planet is actually realized.

Hi Ari,
  Yet another example is the great Ramakrishna .... his Uranus squaring his S.Node in Scorpio , N.Node Taurus ....


  Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Steve on Jun 05, 2009, 01:15 PM
Dusty

Excuse me for addressing you directly in this way.  

It is clear to me after reading your comments that you are not familiar with the Evolutionary Astrology paradigm as taught by Jeffrey Wolf Green in his books, workshops, and lectures.  

This message board is a place where students and others wanting to learn about the principles of Evolutionary Astrology, as originally taught by Jeffrey,  can come and ask questions about the Evolutionary Astrology paradigm we practice here.   This is not a general purpose astrology message board, and it is not even a general EA message board.  It represents one specific approach to EA, and that is its reason for being.

In your first post you made it clear you disagree with one of our EA's core principles, that planets squaring the nodes are skipped steps, 100% of the time.   So far you have not asked a single question, rather have several times gone on expressing your own perspectives.  You have mentioned several times places where you do not agree with some of the way we look at things.

You are certainly entitled to your perspectives, but it is not appropriate for you to answer questions asked by people who have come here to learn about a paradigm that you don't fully agree with.  Because of the nature of this message board, it is a given that people asking questions here already are in alignment with, or at least attracted to, the paradigm we practice. Thus answers that explain where, in your opinion, the paradigm they are asking about is not complete, or is incorrect in some way, are just not appropriate here. There are plenty of places on the web to discuss the pros and cons and truths and untruths of various orientations to astrology.  This is not one of them.
 
In your response to Kristin you expressed a definition of skipped steps as you understand them, and told her why this view of skipped steps is not always correct.  The problem is, your definition of skipped steps is not at all how skipped steps are defined in the Pluto Vol 1 and Vol 2 EA books.  Thus, you are misunderstanding a concept and then giving your opinion of where the misunderstood concept is not correct, when no one here ever defined skipped steps in the way you say is incorrect in the first place.  

It would be respectful to those here if you familiarized yourself with the EA perspectives we practice before telling us where you think they are incomplete.  

I suggest that you read the articles on our website about the core EA principles of Evolution, Soul, Ego, etc.   If after reading you don't resonate with this approach, I am suggesting this board is not going to be an appropriate place for you to spend time on, because we simply are not going to have discussions here about whether our take on EA is right or wrong.  That is not what this board is for.

On the other hand, if after learning more about it, you find you resonate with our approach and wish to learn more about it, you are quite welcome to participate.  
Thank you
Steve


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on Jun 05, 2009, 01:30 PM
To Dusty,

 You are certainly free to disagree with the paradigm of Evolutionary Astrology as taught by Jeffrey Wolf Green. As Steve pointed out this is a place for students and others who are truly interested in understanding this paradigm, and applying it to themselves and/or their clients. It has a long, long track record now spanning over thirty years, and literally tens of thousands of clients. You may wish to consider that its validity is not dependent on whether you agree or disagree with it. If you disagree with it that's fine. But, as Steve pointed out, that disagreement should be expressed elsewhere.

 Rad

 


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Dustybusty on Jun 05, 2009, 07:27 PM
Steve, I am very familiar with the works of JWG, I've read his books, I've done a bit of homework myself. ;)

I was addressing Ari, who is someone I know and as well, have helped him with several clients.

I do understand that this message board is focused, and the part was very much addressed that this is ALTERNATE INFORMATION.

However with that part stressed and out of the way, I was given a thorough response to my original post and interpreted that as creating some space for discussion, not to mislead any potential students.  Was I wrong?

The ideas and technique interpreted and shared through JWG I have immense respect for and in all honesty, was THE set of teachings that appealed to me at that turning point in my life.

However, there is a way of looking at things, where in this particular way, JWG material is PERFECT, yet it also tends to be ALWAYS DEEP.  Everything is a crucible!  That is fine and true, however there is more truth out there...

All legs of astrology will share truth, none of them own it.  Medieval, Jyotish, Mundane.  JWG material may be awesomely awesome, yet there is obviously a huge resistance to anything that JWG didn't/hasn't said.  Which I find appropriate for this forum, but don't really understand in the light of us having already discussed that this was an exception!


That said, if there is further room for discussion, I would ask anyone to provide a chart of someone WELL-KNOWN, where the planet squaring the node acted merely as a crucible, and was not FERVENTLY ACTED UPON in their particular incarnation...

This was my only original point!  Which really has yet to be addressed...  If there is no room for response, than don't respond, tell me theres no space, whatever!  I can handle it. :P


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Steve on Jun 05, 2009, 11:08 PM
Dusty

Quote
The ideas and technique interpreted and shared through JWG I have immense respect for and in all honesty, was THE set of teachings that appealed to me at that turning point in my life.

All I can say, after reading what you wrote prior to this post and what you are now saying in response to my post, is there is a lot of depth in the work of JWG that, from my perspective, you so far have missed.  That is not said as judgment or criticism but as observation, from inner personal experiences in my own life.

EA is not ideas that JWG dreamed up.  They are timeless, multi-tens-of-thousands year old metaphysical principles of the evolutionary journey of the soul, applied to the metaphor of astrology. 

Each time you write another post you demonstrate again the gap between what you believe you understand about EA and what you don't actually understand about EA.  All anyone here has been trying to communicate to you are insights that might deepen the way you look at things.  Yet because you believe you already understand truth beyond what people here are saying, you have not taken in what has been offered, just as you evidently did not take in a lot of what I wrote to you earlier.

You were told by two people that we are not going to debate the principles of EA here, and even after that you come back with
Quote
That said, if there is further room for discussion, I would ask anyone to provide a chart of someone WELL-KNOWN, where the planet squaring the node acted merely as a crucible, and was not FERVENTLY ACTED UPON in their particular incarnation...
"not going to debate the principles of EA here" means the answer to "if there is further room for discussion" is "no, there isn't"

and
Quote
... us having already discussed that this was an exception! ...
nowhere in any of these posts did I read anyone saying this is any sort of exception.  You came to that on your own.

We are not going to compare the virtues of your paradigm vs. the EA JWG paradigm.  If your astrology approach works well for you, it makes complete sense for you to stay with it.  Just as EA works well for me and I stay with it.  That is all I have to say on this topic.
respectfully,
Steve


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on Jun 06, 2009, 08:29 AM
Dusty,

You were told by two people that we are not going to debate the principles of EA here, and even after that you come back with
Quote
That said, if there is further room for discussion, I would ask anyone to provide a chart of someone WELL-KNOWN, where the planet squaring the node acted merely as a crucible, and was not FERVENTLY ACTED UPON in their particular incarnation...
"not going to debate the principles of EA here" means the answer to "if there is further room for discussion" is "no, there isn't"

and
Quote
... us having already discussed that this was an exception! ...
nowhere in any of these posts did I read anyone saying this is any sort of exception.  You came to that on your own.

We are not going to compare the virtues of your paradigm vs. the EA JWG paradigm.  If your astrology approach works well for you, it makes complete sense for you to stay with it.  Just as EA works well for me and I stay with it.  That is all I have to say on this topic.
respectfully,
Steve

*************************************************************************

 What you are doing here is to try to insert, project, and establish you own  sense of personal authority. Thus, in order to do this, you find a way of undermining some existing dynamic, i.e. the nodal axis and skipped steps, and then project your own authority through some kind of 'alternative information'. Even when pointed out to you you insist on doing this anyway. I think you said you have a Mars/Saturn square: "I hope you guys don't mind if I post!  I'm unfortunately joining right as this mars/nodes is T-squaring my natal saturn/mars square!  Oh well!  I'll try to be nice...".......... You are certainly living it. It just needs to be lived somewhere other than this EA message board.

 Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: adina on Jun 06, 2009, 09:55 AM
Dusty,

I’d like to add something to what Steve and Rad have said, and in respect, specifically to your following quote:

“However, there is a way of looking at things, where in this particular way, JWG material is PERFECT, yet it also tends to be ALWAYS DEEP.  Everything is a crucible!  That is fine and true, however there is more truth out there...

All legs of astrology will share truth, none of them own it.  Medieval, Jyotish, Mundane.  JWG material may be awesomely awesome, yet there is obviously a huge resistance to anything that JWG didn't/hasn't said.”

Yes, indeed, the paradigm of EA IS deep. As Steve pointed out, the principles of EA are timeless metaphysical principles. If you are familiar with the Bhagavad Gita—especially Yogananda’s translation and interpretation of it—you’ll know that the EA paradigm itself, down to every little detail, is rooted in and reflective OF the Gita.

As far as “a huge resistance to anything that JWG didn’t/hasn’t said,” that’s like trying to mix apples and oranges. As had been pointed out, it is a system in and of itself, self-contained. No one said there aren’t other systems, other kinds of astrology, only that we can’t apply the principles of one kind of astrology to another. To me, the point you’re trying to argue would be like an evolutionary astrologer going to a forum for Vedic astrologers and telling them that some of the “rules,” some of the principles of their system are wrong because they’re not found in EA.

 Each is valid in its own right. There are basic principles within ANY kind of system, any kind of subject, whether it’s astrology, literature, philosophy, etc. SOME principles will overlap and others won’t, and that’s perfectly all right. We just can’t take ALL the principles from another system – or even certain, specific principles - and try to overlay them, inject them into, another system. It’s really that simple.

And if you want to LEARN how the principles of EA work, then I know your questions would be welcome.


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Lia on Jun 06, 2009, 10:21 AM
Hi Dusty,

It appears to me you misunderstood the BOTTOMLINE regarding the phenomena of "skipped steps" . The bottomline is always very very DEEP,  soul deep. This is what JWG understood in essence he also understood WHY that is the case.

If I understand you right, you saying that things are enough being looked at only at the surface. Of course they can be. Funny thing is that, IF one looks at the surface THOROUGH enough, it will lead to everything that is under the surface.... There is nothing wrong with the surface, what can be wrong is just a VIEW that looks at the surface too SUPERFICIALLY. Which has nothing to do with the surface itself it has to do with the VIEW. Or rather say the "viewer".
Because truth is that the surface of anything is totally intact and ONE with the very THING that the surface is the surface of....i.e. what's happening on the surface will always lead to the reasons in the depth. It is ONE AND THE SAME.

As for the skipped step as a phenomena of which you listed some things you observed on the surface (the surface of life from the point of view of your own, where you observe this surface) The problem I see in your observation is just that you don't seem to realise your own limitation, i.e. the limitation is in the point of view itself.

Let me point the following: the bottomlines of the skipped steps are:

1) THERE IS TWO OPPOSING FORCES ARE IN OPERATION relative to the nodes and relative to the planet, or whatever body that squares the nodes. The affect of these two squares the two opposing forces are FELT IN THE PERSON'S CONSCIOUSNESS IN EACH AND EVERY MOMENT.

2) The square as such has two different application: one is what called "crisis in action" the other one is "crisis in consciousness". When we are talking about a skipped step BOTH square nature is in OPERATION AT THE SAME TIME RELATIVE TO THE SOUL. One square is trying to force action; the other is trying force change in consciousness. They impact on each other EVERY MOMENT.  In other words, almost everything the person does or want to do will be UNDERLINED with OPPOSING forces, so there will be a  YES and a  NO in their consciousness AT THE VERY SAME TIME. The resulting inner confusion, between the opposing forces the self questioning and the gas and the break APPLIED FROM DEEP WITHIN IN CONSCIOUSNESS creates an incredible TENSION in consciousness. That's the NATURE OF THE SKIPPED STEP. That's what consciousness is experiencing in essence.

3) IT IS BECAUSE of this tremendous pull/push this phenomenon creates it can NOT lead anywhere meaningful UNTIL THERE IS A RESOLUTION. The resolution is symbolically speaking the "timing" or "right order" TO APPLY THE FORCES OF THE TWO DIFFERENT NATURE SQUARES AND THAT IS WHAT JWG REALISED AND WHAT HE OFFERS AS A SOLUTION TO RESOLVE THIS TENSION AND ARRIVE TO RIGHT ACTION AFTER A PERIOD OF STAGNATION. For it is stagnation simply by the laws of nature: what's happening when you use the break and the gas at the same time with EQUAL FORCES? It is simply a natural truth which does not need proof, other then itself. Anything that is naturally true proves itself by simply itself. AS long as the skipped step is NOT resolved it causes stagnation relative to the squaring body or bodies of the nodes.
 

3) Your bottomline misunderstanding is that: NO ONE AND CERTAINLY NOT JWG EVER SAID THAT THIS PHENOMENA CANNOT BE RESOLVED AND WILL NOT RESULT IN THE RELEASE OF THE CREATIVE SELF ACTUALISING FORCE IN THE SOUL ONCE THE SKIPPED STEP HAS BEEN RESOLVED.  Right the contrary he said and HIS OWN LIFE PROVES IT BEST, (as he himself has a skipped step!) that once the skipped step is resolved the soul will be able to RELEASE ALL THE GIFTS ALL ITS INNER POTENTIAL THAT HAS BEEN BLOCKED DURING THE STAGNATION PERIOD. It is indeed one of the most creative process for the soul usually for a long time was NOT able to do that, WAS NOT ABLE TO RELEASE THE GIFTS FROM WITHIN, was not able to actualise the purpose of its soul, so it was stuck within. Imagine a bag that is full of gifts that's the soul is ready to give but then the opening of the bag is being stuck it can't be opened. Inside the bag the growth is still happening, but the soul can not ACTUALISE IT RELEASE IT because the relative karmic and evolutionary requirements are not in place something messed up. In other words the soul can't get there when it can not release and give what it has. It can not get there to actualise itself according to what the soul (and god) intended for that soul. So the experience is frustration, stagnation and inner tension that GROWS. And yet, once the skipped step being resolved it will indeed lead to the RELEASE it's like a FLOODING fruition of all the potential the soul has and HAD but was not able to actualise it in the past.  

4) Sorry to say that but it seems to me you can't see the wood for the trees. You are arguing it can lead to creativity, and yet NO ONE SAID IT CAN NOT:-)  What you seem to fundamentally missing is the actual point the DEEP POINT the connection of the facts: what JWG said and taught is that the soul can not release the whatever gift/potential they have UNTIL THE SKIPPED STEP ISN’T RESOLVED. And that WHILE it is in the period of stagnation before it is able to resolve the issue it is EXTREMELY PAINFUL and CONFUSING. His intent is to help those who didn't get there yet, to resolve and be able to release their gift. For there are many....Those are the one who need help and he offers the most brilliant way of helping them via understanding themselves from the deepest point of view, the soul itself. Then comes you and saying something totally disconnected to the issue itself and say something outrageously laughable because you observed a few famous people who in one way or another resolved their dilemma and was able to flood out their whatever potential...... What can I say....? Congratulation......  You deserve a  price for that observation :-))  You got the head of the elephant and you are arguing that JWG got it wrong saying the WHOLE ELEPHANT is the same thing...it needs to be understood from tale to head in order to really see what are we dealing with....... That's a huge difference, and I can only repeat what Steve said: please look into your own understanding and resolve the skipped step in your OWN understanding: i.e. you are arriving to a 'conclusion' based on fundamentally missing the connection the underlying LAW what the skipped step is actually based on. It will indeed lead to some form of creativity AT THE END when the skipped step resolved. So you are listing here some relatively famous people, who in one way or another became famous AFTER they resolved their stagnation period. And you seemingly have no awareness or understanding what MAY LEAD to that point what these souls would have to GO THROUGH in order to get there. And this is what JWG is teaching and offers a consciously embraceable way to get there. Which means the struggle, the stagnation period can be shortened for the souls WHO ARE NOT THERE YET. They are in the period of inner confusion and inner struggle. And believe me their number is far bigger than those who were able to resolve it. But you would not find their names in any encyclopaedia which then of course LIMIT your observation.....look around with a broader view...you'll find the facts.....which can remove the limitation of your point of view where you are observing a little segment of the "surface'...that segment isn't the "facts" that's just a TINY FRACTION of the actual facts....  


5) To prove this point you need to stop looking at only the so called "successful" people's chart and need to do AN OBJECTIVE RESEARCH. Ordinary people, not the famous just people who typically struggle and seemingly get nowhere in life. Look at their chart in large numbers and than you will see the missing part the unseen part of the phenomena that JWG is talking about in this regard.
Problem I see is that you draw conclusions before you know the FULL EXTENT OF THE FACTS EVEN ON THE SURFACE LEVEL. Then you think it is a result of thinking "differently". Well, in my view it is a result of thinking/interpreting the surface events of life superficially...sorry to say that.  

6) Two examples of what happens during the painful period of stagnation SO BEFORE result ion is reached, happens to be on this MB. One is the person Ari was talking about within this topic, (can you not see the person is yet in the STAGNATION period?) and also Adina, who's chart we are discussing in the other topic. Just have a look; you can see it for yourself how great is the CREATIVE POTENTIAL in her chart. And yet, Adina's life (and past lives!) to date were typical to the STRUGGLE the stagnation period, not being able to resolve the skipped step and BECAUSE OF THAT not being able to fully release the gift, the creative potential the soul clearly has. Well of course this is the reason she is not on your "famous people" list with skipped steps. But I can guarantee you in the coming lives ahead THE SOUL WILL BE!! :-) That will be the result of all the struggles the soul had before.... As she is now in the process of resolving the skipped step resolving the reasons for the 'stagnation period'. Once that happens the stored up, unrealised and not actualised INNER POTENTIAL the stored up knowledge that has been blocked in this period will be ACTUALISED it will pour out of the soul. BUT ONLY AFTER the resolution has been consciously embraced in some fashion within consciousness and leading to freeing up the blocked potential.


7) Again, the problem is not within the phenomena, it is the point of view from where you observe it and draw conclusions based on that. THERE ISN'T AND NEVER WILL BE A FAMOUS PERSON WHO HAS NOT RESOLVED THE SKIPPED STEPS:-) FOR AS LONG AS THE SOUL IS SITTING ON THE FENCE IT WON'T BE FAMOUS:-) What may happened BEFORE they become 'famous' is the heart of the issues...and that's what you don't seem to understand at all...the very way of how you think 'show me a famous person who is sitting on the fence' sorry to say is laughable to me....

Anyhow, point is that EA offers a way of looking at and understanding things LIFE itself in the possible deepest way including tbut not exlusive to the phenomena of skipped steps. To understand the surface (of life) via embracing the "whys" for that surface..... We humans usually become interested in the deeper layers  when our "surface" don't work anymore.....
So again, the real list of skipped step souls will contain an extremely LARGE number of people, in the silence of the masses strugging within and a few very few people who were actually able to resolve the dilemma and so released the inner gift and became 'well known' AFTER the resolution happened......

EA is for those who want to and need to embrace the deeper answers about their lives ...most are those who struggle in the present and wish to find answers and healing for their pains and sruggles. And for those who r those who want to consciously DO something for their own evolution.


If you think that's "too deep"..... well what can I say? :-) Keep your famous people's list and maybe one day the NUMBER will occur to you how many souls are here on this planet and how many AREN'T well known and not famous.....maybe that day you will understand the INTENTION of JWG's soul-deep work...it was intended to help those who struggle and it never've been intended to argue with you or anyone.....it does not matter what others think....what matters is that, THOSE of us who perceive life as far FAR valuable than wasting it via living and perceiving it only in the shallows, looking at it superficially,those who want to dive into their own depth is what EA is really REALLY for.

Let me give you another example of what skipped step really mean: I happen to have one asteroid squaring my nodes. As for "sitting on the fence" not knowing if I am coming or going I can assure you this is what my soul IS DOING FOR AT LEAST TWO THOUSANDS YEARS. And by the way I know this for a fact it's not a notion, it is FROM DIRECT KNOWLEDGE, via direct experiences recollecting past lives way way back in time....Skipped steps are EXACTLY THAT sitting on the fence but sitting in PAIN AND CONFUSION NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S WRONG AND STRUGGLING IN EACH AND EVERY MOMENT becauase of that. Solution could not occur because the gas and break is operating in the same time which is horrendously exhausting to say the least:-)

Anyhow, of course I too wouldn't be in your famous people list for the last two thousand years.....why because it hasn't been resolved.  And as long as the soul is not able to resolve it the tension grows, the pain grows and the constant yes and no going on in consciousness, means one is cancelling the other and NO self actualisation can take place. Observe that from the shallow....you can't even see it, it won't be in your well known people's book:-)

Yet, once the skipped step is resolved all of a sudden out of the "blue" two thousand years of learning, unrealised and unmanifested inner gifts can pour out of the soul.....for me it is happening in this life, at this very time. And you know why it CAN happen? Because there is a person, called JWG who has given the world a gift of EA and it contains all the answers that my soul and many others needed which enables the soul to find its own answers and resolve the skipped step or the whatever dilemma they have within their soul......

So this is the "invisible" or the other side of the WHOLE reality behind the skipped steps notion that you are missing out on....

That's what JWG is teaching relative to skipped steps AMONGST MANY OTHER SOUL METAMORPHOSING WISDOM that he has given to the world via EA.

Please try to understand the fact that EVEN IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO FULLY UNDERSTAND IT, what it carries is far more than what you can observe in your famous people's book....JWG's soul is intending to give back the PURPOSE of the confused souls, not one but MANY (he has saturn in leo, the gift is for the whole global society with love from his heart to help them to actualise themselves via understanding their OWN soul ..his sat. is conj. to balsamic conj. to his pluto in the 9th....what more graphic it can be what his soul is intending? it is not for the famous, it is for the polarity point: the traumatised, the displaced, ostrichised, alienated and/or utterly confused souls who build up the MAJORITY of people/society in all countries in our times........to embrace and understand the DEPTH OF THE TRUTH OF WHO WE ARE AND WHY WE ARE HERE....  

AND GOD BLESS HIM FOR THAT  INVALUABLE GIFT!  GOD BLESS HIS SOUL FOR ALL THE WISDOM HE GAINED VIA HIS OWN SOUL’S STRUGGLES AND PASSED THE WISDOM ONTO US IN A STUCTURED, EASY TO EMBRACE AND APPLY WAY. THAT’S AN EXTRA GIFT VERY FEW IS ABLE TO GIVE! For understanding life in its depth is one thing but being able to TEACH it is another thing. He has it both, the understanding and the talent of teaching it in the right way. For it makes sense incredible sense for so so many...as your heard he had some 30 000 clients himself....well, if that made sense for that many mostly 'unfamous' people maybe you can see the point here; your own limitation is not his 'fault' if you can't grasp the essence of it....

The depth of his work may not be your cup of tea (at this point of time) but it is the cup that the majority is actualy thirsty for....

But saying such thing that JWG is "too deep" and you enjoy viewing just the surface....and then you argue about issues saying from that superficial surface point that what he says about a phenomena is not “right” for you seeing it differently via your "way" of looking at it.....well what can I say?:-) ...it is actually kind of funny to me:-) ....of course you don‘t see it as long as you don‘t bother to look at the WHOLE phenomena....but if you will bother to LOOK and check the real facts andnot just a tiny portion of it, I garantee you too will see it clearly ....

Anyhow,  I write this note in the hope that this conversation MAY at the end bring something constructive: those who don‘t understand the notion of skipped step this may provide some insight that can enhance their intuition, while for those who are learning through facts, this may point to the need of collecting and observing facts in a broader and more careful way so that the facts are not biased but reflect the actual BROAD reality of life itself.....for both leads to the same at the end...it is always the proverbial ‘elephant’ from tale to head......problem is only when we think one aspect or one part of it is the ‘whole lot’ ......missing the wood for the trees...


Blessings,

Lia


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Rad on Jun 07, 2009, 10:17 AM
To Those Who Have Been Following This Thread,

 After all of this the person named DustyBusty decided to post yet more of his stuff that is utterly inappropriate. After being warned in the ways that he was by myself, Lia, Steve, Kristin, and Adina, he persisted in vomiting his displaced sense of 'authority' here anyway. Thus, his posts have been deleted now, and he will be banned from this message board.

 Rad


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: Steve on Jun 07, 2009, 11:11 AM
Dusty

I don't enjoy having to be this direct, but in this case it is warranted.

You need to get over yourself and your belief in your own brilliance.  Reality is you are one tiny grain of sand on a vast beach, and what you know (as is true for all of us) is far outweighed by what you don't have the slightest clue about.  

You are one of the worst listeners I have encountered.  (No doubt you believe you are a great listener.)  You may in fact hear people's words, but you take them in barely at all, and only to the degree necessary for you to come back with yet another example of how your great wisdom and brilliance surpasses that of others.  Whatever anyone's insights are, you make sure they know that you know something beyond that.  Frankly, we don't care. We never asked to hear your brilliant insights in the first place.  You gifted us with them none the less, whether or not we wanted them - a very poor listener.

In your very first post you pointed out aspects of EA that you didn't agree with.  You continued on telling us how even EA has to evolve, and the merit of other systems beyond just EA.  3 days later you come back now stating you 100% totally believe in EA.   What?  Do you think my memory is that short?

Even though you may feel you've been treated harshly on this forum, the reality is everyone here wishes for you only the maximum advancement on your evolutionary journey.  We have responded as we have only because frankly you have proven yourself to be pretty clueless in a lot of ways, and demonstrated  that you don't hear much when it is presented subtlely.
take care, and I do wish you the best
Steve


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: stephen on Jun 10, 2009, 09:32 PM
Hi All,

I am only starting with Astrology, and EA, but I was hoping I could ask to have this thread reactivated...or continued?

This information is really really helpful, and I have nothing really to add to kick if off again except to ask...?

By the Way, Lia, that post on June 06, 2009, 10:21:11 AM  really helped me to understand more about the skipped steps in particular, and the EA Paradigm in general.

I just want to say truly that this board is really GREAT and these discussions (and the books and DVDs) are already helping me in even such a short time in big ways, which are too personal to list in a public forum.

Is that too presumptous of me?  If so, I am sorry, and I can delete this, but the sentiment and the true thanks remain.

Blessings and Fellowship,
and thanks to those who choose to teach on this forum,
I for one am grateful,
Stephen


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: adina on Jun 10, 2009, 10:03 PM
Stephen, that's not presumptuous of you at all. I'm so glad that you found EA and are finding it worthwhile. I'm also happy to see your questions. Please do continue to ask away, and also chime in on any of the discussions.

Blessings,
Adina


Title: Re: souls that block thier level of evolution for special purposes
Post by: stephen on Jun 11, 2009, 01:51 PM
Stephen, that's not presumptuous of you at all. I'm so glad that you found EA and are finding it worthwhile. I'm also happy to see your questions. Please do continue to ask away, and also chime in on any of the discussions.
Blessings,
Adina

Adina,
Thanks for your kind and considerate reply.  Currently, my chiming in has little value, since I am only but a few weeks or so into this Paradigm.  But, I do bring great respect for this voluntary fellowship, a real desire to add value, and truly seek to be allowed to one day counsel others as this Paradigm comes through me.

Blessings,
Stephen