School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: adina on May 08, 2009, 11:18 AM



Title: Chart Practice with Client Feedback: Adina
Post by: adina on May 08, 2009, 11:18 AM
Hi everyone,

Rad has asked me to post my chart for practice, this being for several different reasons.

1. It gives students the chance to follow a chart from beginning to end – thru an entire life – with feedback from the “client,” i.e., me. This is something that we rarely get to see, even as professional astrologers.

2. The chart is full of all kinds of “exceptions” we find in EA, including, but not limited to: skipped steps that include Pluto square the nodes; a planet conjunct the south node, a past life suicide; active masochist; and compensatory behavior that gave the appearance of being in a much earlier evolutionary stage than is actually the case.

3. Last but not least, I have begun, in earnest, the last leg of my current incarnation and am moving toward my transition. The resolution of chart/life dynamics looks very different from this viewpoint, and I’d be happy to share that in the spirit of learning as well. You’ll also be able to follow along with that journey in relation to the chart thru my blog: www.bluelotusletters.com

Birth and biographical information: Adina: Dec. 3, 1947; 4:10 pm; Alliance, OH; white, raised in solid middle to upper middle class socio-economic conditions; Methodist religious conditioning; First stage spiritual. Father was a CPA; Mother a homemaker. Raised with 2 brothers, one 4 ½ years older, and one 6 ½ years younger. Rest of family in 3rd stage consensus.

Severe emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse as a child. Parents were always “right,” and kids were always “wrong.” Older brother obvious favorite of Mother. Father had narcissistic personality disorder but was well respected businessman. We looked like the perfect, happy little 1950s family, but behind closed doors…….  Married at 19 (1967) and had two children: a boy in 1969 and a girl in 1971. Divorced in 1991.

So, let’s start with that Fourth House Pluto and have some evolutionary detective fun!


(http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/images/Adina-1.jpg)



Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 08, 2009, 05:56 PM
Hi Adina,

What a generous offer to be the "genie pig" for EA ;D

Well, let me begin with a few thoughts for starters:

4th Pluto: a soul who has worked on its emotional body for a long time now. There is a need to embrace all emotions as emanating from the self (versus others being responsible for it) and to learn to fulfil the emotional needs from within - versus being dependent on and expecting others to meet those emotional needs. 
The 4th pluto lesson includes the need to mature emotionally and based on that maturation create/reformulate the self image.

With Pluto in 4th the issue usually starts at childhood; the emotional needs of the child is neither understood nor met by the parents. This can happen simply because the parents are unable to perceive the child's specific needs, or can happen for many other reasons, including abuse, emotional harm etc.

In the same time pluto is in leo: along the above the soul had a deep desire to actualise itself from its own merit, also had some form of narcistic nature. Within this placement in the 4th, there has been an expectation that those very deep, intense emotional needs should be met by the parents. There is also a feeling to be special and unique which generally adds to the emotional expectations as a child and causes great despair when these needs are not met. Emotional insecurity is the result and the soul is repeatedly thrown back to itself - with an intention to learn to meet its own emotional needs. Obviously as a child no awareness of such is present in any of us....the wounding in childhood clearly stated in this placement.

These kinds of emotionally unfulfilled life experiences have been repeated in several life times. The stellium next to pluto in the 4th with saturn moon and mars symbolises the multiply effort via many life times in this very area and an intensity of tension within the emotional body.

South node is in the 6th in scorpio: the way how this was implemented has been very very intense to begin with (scorpio s.node) and there has been some form of inferiority superiority beliefs attached to it. As the ruler points back to pluto itself, the intensity is emotional above all. There has been some form of merging, uniting with others via very deep emotional dynamics, which were also based on some kind of superiority/inferiority issues. .

With 4th Pluto (as ruler) this points back to familial relations, including the birth family members as well as intimate others in the past.  These people also had in one way or another extremely intense emotional needs. With scorpio s.node it is certain that the soul has experienced power and powerlessness emotionally and that the famous "rug" has been pulled under its feet many times... ::)

The 6th house is also the house of discrimination: so one of the lessons has been to apply discrimination in intimate relationship as whom merge with and whom not to. This is related to what kind of power symbols (re. emotional security needs in this case) the soul identified with...

Bottomline however in this symbolism is the issue of consciously or unconsciously waiting for others (scorpio) in the past to supply the security the soul was searching for (4th house pluto AND scorpio s.node together.) The 6th s.node also suggests that the soul has felt some sort of guilt and wanted to atone for that guilt. This guilt is related in one way or another to others the soul felt one with; scorpio. Something happened possibly secretly (scorpio) in relation to the soul itself and to others that caused this guilt at the first place.
With scorpio ruled by the leo 4th pluto it is likely that these others were either family members or from the same background of origin as the soul was in that life time. What had happened affected the self image of the soul. When pluto is also the s.node ruler: the connection within the symbolism will be multiplied and ever more intense. Eventually the soul with this particular configuration feels ashamed for who it essentially is. (back to 4th house pluto as ruler of the 6th scorpio s.node) That's what caused the problem...

South node conj. mercury and chiron in scorpio: something has been said, communicated in some ways that is directly related to this inner feeling of shame and guilt. Further more what has been said wounded itself and others (chiron) and possibly it is related to death (scorpio)

With another aspect of the 4th pluto as ruler: it is also possible that the connection was gender related, i.e. what has been commincated affected other women as well....if we take this a step further we can see from this symbolism a horrible picture how women has been persecuted for being a woman during the patriarchy ..the reason amongst other things can be "forbidden" sexual activity (6th house, something that is judged sinful; scorpio amongst other things; sexuality, one's sexual nature.)

Imagining the possible event(s) behind the archetypal correlations probably will give the feel as where the guilt may originate from and how it then brought along in time sinking deep down into the unconscious realms of the soul (pluto) ...yet from there affecting deeply the emotional body and the self image....and why the multiplied skipped steps developed by 4 planets are all connected to this s.node issue.....

Ok I guess it is enough for starters...I let others to continue from here... :)

Let me know Adina your feedback sofar...
And thanks again for your courage to offer your chart for EA purposes!

Blessings,

Lia


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 08, 2009, 06:09 PM
oops...I didn't put this right sorry ;D
What I meant being persecuted and eventually killed as a woman for being a sexual being...and within those circumstances, being judged this way, saying or being forced to say (scorpio=force) things about others; others whom the soul loved and felt very close to (scorpio)...they came from the same origin or even the same family..(4th pluto ruler).



Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 10, 2009, 11:20 AM
Hi everyone again,

Just one more important thing about the 6th scorpio s.node relative to the original traumas in this chart: the 6th is also the house of "service" so the kind of service that the soul fulfilled ORIGINALLY, along with other women, were of course rituals,(scorpio) and amongst those, sexual rituals including the sexual initiation of male children. Which is within natural society, of paramount importance. It teaches the male how to use sexual energy in the right way.

(As for history: in general, this was one of the key factors why human violence as such belongs ONLY to patriarchal times. The prior matriarchal period was far longer though, yet there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that human communities were violent either to each other or within one community. Reason being: it is the suppression and/or wrong use of the sexual energy which leads to distortion of the natural human psyche, which leads to rage, which then leads to violent behaviour against each other. The distortion of the phychology of the masses which is all based on sexual suppression and distorted behaviour is what directly responsible for the mass violence we experience within the patriarchal period of our histroy.)

So in regards to this chart, at that time (matriarchal times) the soul had a highly respected (satrun conj. pluto!) societal role that only women could fulfill...(4th house)
So the original trauma here is directly linked on a personal level to the upside/down switch of reality: something that the soul felt proud of (leo pluto, leo saturn and moon) and was personally and socially acknowledged for, at one point became the source of shame and social persecution....the original service became a sin....so everything the soul based its special identity upon and what ORIGINALLY provided it's inner AND outer security, became the source of feeling utterly guilty for....

I hope this more detailed historical background will make it easier for others to jump in??  ;D





Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Deva on May 10, 2009, 12:00 PM
I wanted to add the potential and special capacities I saw in this chart. With Sun/Jupiter Sag/7th house you could definately impart wisdom of natural law to others that are based on your own expereince of aligning and living that truth (undoing the compensation you talked about). With Mercury in Scorpio in the 6th house conjunct the SN there is aslo the ability to communicate these principles very clearly and with an unsual depth (Venus in cap/8th house also symbolizes purging conditioning patterns that has been inhibiting growth in the past). The underminding messages that have prevented the full actulization of this teaching/healing capacity must be released/purged as well (South Node in Scorpio in the 6th conjunct Mercury in the context of PLuto in Leo in the 4th house conjunct saturn and the Moon). The 4th house emphasis reflects that internal security must be established at a very deep level in  order for the full teaching capacities to shine. The South Node in 6th house, and sag in the 7th reflects a naturally humble and compassionate person who desires to live their truth, and help others do the same.
Deva


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on May 10, 2009, 04:53 PM
Adina, you are so beautitul! thank you. i hope you will continue blogging.

COPD/emphysema- what is that associated with astrologically, mercury+pluto/scorpio? in your case, do you know what the cause was?

Quote
So in regards to this chart, at that time (matriarchal times) the soul had a highly respected (satrun conj. pluto!) societal role that only women could fulfill...(4th house)
So the original trauma here is directly linked on a personal level to the upside/down switch of reality: something that the soul felt proud of (leo pluto, leo saturn and moon) and was personally and socially acknowledged for, at one point became the source of shame and social persecution....the original service became a sin....so everything the soul based its special identity upon and what ORIGINALLY provided it's inner AND outer security, became the source of feeling utterly guilty for....

i think that is brilliant. i beleive the neptune in the 5th in libra squaring that venus adds to that as well.

i want to share a thought on pluto squaring nn: the soul has developed strong sensitivity and fear of the patriarchal culture due to being persecuted, (burned at stake?) (venus cap 8). and as a result has learned to suppress it's own inner feminine wisdom, feeling far from fully inhabiting it's deep feminine interior, creative potential, sexual expression (nn taurus 12th, venus square neptune libra 5th) and maintaining natural and healthy boundaries. beyond what lia wrote, im sure we have lifetimes in which this soul was a male, a patriarch in fact who was probably famous and was highly identified with social opinion and acceptance. in these lifetimes/lifetime the soul didn't know how to completely own to it's own feminine consciousness, it's deepest needs bc they weren't accepted or appropriate in that culture. so possibly male lifetimes with non hetero sexual desires? also attempting to liberate from ideas about what sexuality, the body is (uranus in gemini in the second) quincunx and ruled by mercury on the sn.

the focus has been on the sn. a fear of loosing control, and difficulty forgiving herself for her spiritual imperfections, and other people as well- the past, family, the acceptance of past trauma. it's about coming to terms with where she is out of power (scorpio) to maintain control over life (6th house). in the past there has been a strong emphasis on trying to maintain safety as a protection mechanism. as an evolutioanry catalyst, she chose to experience great abandonment and neglect and abuse of all kinds that she would inwardly experience as a punishment for her lack of sexual perfection, the feeling of having done something wrong. this lead to self neglect and masochistic tendencies/attracting abuse to atone for her imperfect desires. i can totally see how living itself was a burden.

i also want to add that with mercury on the sn squaring pluto saturn moon in leo= the power and influence of her mind to serve others. and possible lifetimes long ago of doing so. like what deva said-  all that becomes activated as a deep level of internal security is established. and FOR SURE with sun in sag cj juptier in 7th this soul has chosen a mission to share it's gifts and awareness as an insightful teacher that appreciates and can relate to many different kind of people. and thank you again for doing so adina!

btw, just noticing the aquarian trio squaring your nodes, this clearly is a powerful time for you.


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 11, 2009, 04:59 AM
Hi guys,

This is so exciting ;D Really this is an opportunity of a life time as being able to look at EA in this way with a "client" looking kind of backward so to speak...again, Adina it is such a gift to enable us to do so in the name of the evolutionary paradigm as a natural law and testing our ability to grasp it via a chart!

Thanks Deva and Ari to jump in and make such valuable inputs!

You are SOO right Ari, these transits in the 10th in aq. (pluto's and all other 4th planets polarity house!) signifies such a powerful time! Isn't that  amazing...thanks for pointing that out!

I am blown away, just HOW graphic is that: aq. objectivity, 10th house social context and here we are trying to give some objective, group effort feedback (aq.) in a way that in the same time is an implementation of what the soul can give back to the community (10th house) and all that in square with the nodes activating the whole complicated skipped steps dynamics.....
Also tr. pluto is right on venus the ruler of the n.node!WOW!

It is indeed such a gift from you Adina, such a special opportunity at such a special time...because of that, I'd like to suggest to go step by step planet by planet, dynamics to dynamics, trying to uncover the many-layered soul structure - as each soul has multiplied layers within themselves and all of them add to the phenomena of what we call life; the experiences and lessons - past and present - via which our souls attempt to learn and grow....in this case having a scorpio s.node in the 6th it is clear that the soul programmed many powerful metamorphosing experiences in order to grow beyond it's prior limitations of all kinds...

Adina I'd like to ask if you would be okay with that approach?? :o If we try to dig in step by step and attempt to uncover the "secrets" of your soul  :o on our way of trying to apply the method of synthetising the EA symbols?  ;D
In the hope that all this may positively adds to the soul-programmed metamorphosing experience symbolised by that tr. pluto ...isn't that amazing how it all connects? I.e. that pluto being the s.node's ruler and transiting OVER the n.node ruler.... in a chart when the heart is the skipped steps notion -i.e. going back and forth bewtween those two symbols for life times?

It is indeed a privilidge to be a part of this process...as Wolf used to say "astrology in our face!" ;D

Much love and blessings,
Lia



Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on May 11, 2009, 10:10 PM
Thanks very much Lia, Deva and Ari! I really appreciate this excellent analysis and thank you for your very kind words. I apologize for the delay in feedback and a brief response now; this past weekend was an especially busy one for me, and much of today was taken up with medical issues, but I wanted to post a few things yet this evening - things that especially stood out or had special meaninfgfor me - as well as to encourage you and others to keep going.

I also agree with Lia's last post about regrouping, so to speak, and employing the basic evolutionary axis for the analysis; i.e., we start with Pluto/PP, S node and it's ruler, then N node and its ruler, etc.

First, Lia (and then Ari), you are spot on with the prior life role of sacred prostitute, and we can further back that up with the Vesta in Cancer in the 3rd TRINE the S Node/Mercury in Scorp in the sixth. Also, we can note that at 27 Scorp, the S Node of Mars (remember how important the planetary nodes are)  is conjunct the S Node and also trine the Vesta. Ari, you brought in the Venus, too, in aspect to Neptune, and we can again add the S Node of Vesta conjunct the Venus, so you can see how each aspect and layer adds more and more  information and confirmation. Then add Pallas in Pisces in 10 (inconjunct the Vesta and square the nodes and Mercury) and you can see again the persecution for speaking at a different level than accepted by society in general and patriarchal leaders in particular. The next thing to figure in relation to this past life info is how it affects the current life.

In relation to the following in Lia's first post: "The 6th s. node also suggests that  the soul has felt some sort of guilt and wanted to atone for that guilt....... Something happened possibly secretly (Scorpio) in relation to the soul itself and to others that caused this guilt at the first place." ....  Yes, and let's look at the possibilities of what that might have been and include the Merc in Scorp conj the S node.

Deva, in relation to the following that you pointed out quite accurately, "The undermining messages that have prevented the full actualization of this teaching/healing capacity must be released /purged as well (you included all the astro backup above)."  I feel this is an especially deep lesson/need for this soul this life, the purging of the messages that originated from others as well as the self, and continued thru the inner dialogue. Right on! And still working on a few remaining threads of it!

Ari, like I mentioned above, yes, indeed, to adding the Neptune in 5 squaring the Venus!  As far as fear of patriarchal culture due to persecution... it  was in particular... torture..that led to some of that suppression that you mentioned, so we can explore that more. Very good.  As far as the reference to "lifetimes in which this soul was a male, a patriarch in fact who was probably famous and was highly indentified with social opinion and acceptance,"... we need to keep in mind the evolutionary stage of the soul. First stage spiritual would not identify or seek "social opinion and acceptance, in and of itself, and would not be in the kind of position AS you've described it. If sought out as a means of compensation, it still wouldn't hold any meaning for that soul itself.

Next, where do you feel you see the "possible male lifetimes with non heterosexual desires?"  In relation to the "..... sn, a fear of loosing control," and following that, "..... coming to terms with where she si out of power (scorpio) to maintain control over life (6th house).....  is there something more specific you're referring to in relation to loosing and wanting to maintain control?

As far as the Astro markers for COPD/emphysema, the basis would be the Uranus in Gemini in 2 inconjunct the Merc in Scorp in the 6th. I do know the cause, but let's play astrological detective to determine what that is first, because we sure do create everything for or out of a reason.  ;)

This is great work, everyone! I hope you continue and that others join in. We have SO much we can cover, especially as it relates to the state of the consciousness when it began this incarnation and where it is now and will be when it leaves this incarnation behind.  It's quite graphic, and I think a great tool for astrologers to be able to actually SEE the possibilities.   :)  Again, this is great, and I deeply appreciate your time and efforts in doing this!

God bless,

Adina


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on May 13, 2009, 10:28 PM
alright, so b4 i give a go at it- when i start with pluto south node and its ruler, pp, nn and its ruler- is it recommended that i incorporate any of the other themes- such as the role the moon and sun play within all of that? or do you recommend i do that afterwards? in this approach, where does all the other stuff flow in? are we recommended i follow the process given in the "planetary method of chart analysis" in the measuring the night?

basically, how would you suggest i go about interpreting this?

Thank you!

btw, those emoticons are rather mischevious! via some punctuation and parenthesis, i accidently posted a  8) when talking about venus in capricorn and persecution  :o


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on May 14, 2009, 07:06 AM
You have a great sense of humor, Ari!  You have asked a very important and pertinent question. Since this MB is open to the public, not everyone may be familiar with the basic evolutionary axis that Wolf taught. So, yes, the method/process in Measuring the Night II would be the way to go. Pluto, PP, South node and ruler, n node and ruler, then Sun, Merc, etc. And in this particular case/chart, Pluto squares the nodal axis, so BOTH nodes have been worked on before without either one being FULLY developed, resulting in the skipped steps. Just as a reminder, the node that last conjuncted pluto is the resolution node for skipped steps, meaning the one that MUST be worked on to recover the skipped steps. In this case, that is the N Node. Let me know if you have any other questions about how to proceed, Ari. I look forward to your analysis!  :)



Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on May 19, 2009, 05:43 PM
Alright! so i've been palying with this for a bit now. Finally realized that the best thing to do is to keep it simple and just take a first step in this process. I still think I may be going too far too soon. I look forward and am grateful ahead of time for your feedback, adina and anyone else.

For those who aren't familiar- this is a general method (partially) explained in Measuring the Night Vol II- "planetary method for chart analysis" with JWG. After pluto/pp/nodes and rulers, you start with the sun and move out from there. It's considered a Virgoian step by step type of analysis which can naturally flip into unified Piscean perception. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to include aspects to the nodes in the beginning.

The underlying reason for past incarnations has been for the soul to experience itself as the creator of it's own security (pluto). The lesson is about learning detachment and not personalizing everything as the determinant of self identity (pp). This allows for an essential security that truly comes from within. security coming from within is a powerful concept when we're looking at pluto in leo in the 4th. this is the creative force of compassion- a bon fire that radiates love and nurturance.

In past lives we see a strong pattern of experiencing emotional manipulation, abandonment, and abuse of all kinds. This is indicated with all that 4th house squaring the nodes. Developing the emotional body/emotional maturity and responsibility for taking care of others, managing her own family/ taking care of her deepest needs (saturn moon 4th), learning how to be discerning and make decisions that support her deepest emotional needs (mars virgo 4th). squaring the nodes- the first thing that tells me is all those issues have been the crux for her soul's evolutionary journey.

6th house scorpio, /12th house taurus. sn reflects in the soul seeking to cultivate an essential humility and an intense awareness of ALL imperfections. the taurus 12th nn reflects letting go and finding perfection in just what is. and in that perfection feeling completely fulfilled and content in her own being.

put ruler of sn in 4th house and get the square going= the evolutionary intent has been experienced primarily through the loss of control in her life. This speaks strongly to being a victim of forces of deep oppression that push her into the chaos of having no control. her pattern has been to attract punishment to herself in the form of all kinds of emotional sexual and verbal abuse and intense abandonment at a core level (sn scorpio 6th relative to pluto). This is bc she has naturally been very controlling and obsessive about perfection- to the extent that she has cyclicly created experiences of complete chaos and disorder in her life, in her health, in her enviroment. her obsession for control has been linked to maintaining the status quo of security in her life. In her past, she has been very dependent on the energy and love she gets from other people. This dependence on outside energy has been an evolutionary catalyst for these experiences in order to learn the pluto lesson of emotional self reliance.

QUESTION: i dont feel I entirely GET the essence of scorpio in the 6th in relationship to Pluto in the 4th. Can you help me with that?

As I wrote earlier, she learned to suppress her own inner feminine wisdom, feeling far from fully inhabiting it's deep feminine interior, creative potential, sexual expression (nn taurus 12th, venus in cap 8th square neptune libra 5th) and maintaining natural and healthy boundaries. She's flip flopped between LETTING GO (living in full alignment with her divine beauty queen, but also being overly naive and trusting of ANYONE) and HOLDING ON (trying to fix herself- maybe sex changes, killing herself bc of the immense difficulties in living, TAKING VENGENCE on others or symbols of others who have persecuted her (also reflected in the nature of venus), sado-masochistic relationships in which she can play out her story of being a victim and also find empowerment- all scorpio 6th linked to the vulnerability of pluto in the 4th).

The general tendency has been to be very cautious of victimization, of the possibilty of abaondonment. In fact, she has learned to expect it. She has developed an acute sense of perception, discrimination and judgement as a protection mechanism (sn).

We can understand past lives in which she was hung, tried, burned etc. the scorpio in the 6th as well as venus in cap in the 8th feels stongly connected to past lives as a witch/healer/herbalist that was persecuted by the patriarchal powers that be.

ok- so that's just based on the nodes, rulers, pluto and pp. I'm trying my best to keep this grounded!

Lets just remember that the overall nodes pluto story imply the lesson of self reliance and becoming empowered by her deepest values as a spiritual being here with a purpose. This naturally involves owning her power and sexuality and helping others do the same.

Now I'm just going to generalize each planet.
The sun in Sag in the 7th= spiritual counselor. the focal energy of her dharma is connecting to spiritual path that will allow her a broad access and undestanding to all different kinds of people.

Mercury in Scorpio in the 6th= attracted to information that reveals the mystery behind why things are the way they are. This information is used as a way to help others/ fix things/ mechanically understanding how life functions and be able to assist people based on that understanding. Mercury conj SN, square those 4 planets in 4th= this attraction to knoweldge, and the use of that knoweldge/information/communication has been pivotal in maintaiing security. we can say her life depended on it. in the same sense, she has also used the power and wit of her mind to control and manipulate.

Venus in Capricorn in the 8th= Her inner chat is about trusting her intuitive feminine wisdom- naturally rising above the consensus opinions and ideas of sexuality/ social oppression and sexual abuse.

Mars in Virgo in the 4th= She can act on her Soul's Desire by cultivating a critical perspective on how she is taking care of herself. This implies a devotion and service to taking creating home/ taking care of emotional needs. She will instincively act as a mother to provide for her deepset needs, as well as those who are in her "family" network. This is a strong degree of self awareness that allows her to correct ways in which she neglects emotional/nurturing needs. squaring nodes= over focused on controlling everything leads to complete loss of control/misdirected emotional energy.

Jupiter Conj sun- blows up the mission statement of the sun. sag 7th- Appreciating other people and opening up to broader horizons and persepctives, teaching= very good thing to do.

Saturn in Leo in the 4th- becoming a responsible care taker of self intimacy and love.

Uranus gemini second= intent to liberate from prevailing trends, thoughts ideas and opinions that generally constitute the basis for sexuality/survival etc.. This takes her deep into her interior to find her truest deepest resources no matter how much they that differentiates her from her enviroment.
retrograde= over did it in the past. didn't know how to rebel against her own inner status quo- was too outwardly focused and didn't know how to truly liberate w/out being subject to oppression.
Im going to need help with interpreting the meaning of uranus inconjunct nodes/mercury when we get there

Neptune Libra 5th= The intent to be exactly who she is. In that, she humbly knows herself as an instrument of Truth. her own sense of self and specialness is a manifestation of divine will. The innosence of being a child. letting go of self image so that she can naturally project her self image.

Ok, so I think I'll keep it at that b4 putting it all together with aspects and all. Once I do that, I'll address the comments and questions you asked in your earlier response.


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 28, 2009, 12:13 PM
Hi Ari,

May I suggest thinking over this chart via considering the followings:
 
1) Pluto is mainly unconscious in all of us. Although we're going to manifest it is not conscious. So in regards to the "control" issue you were talking about doesn't seem to click in....with a 4th pluto there is indeed an emotional intensity in the soul, but it doesn't know it.

2) Where the s.node falls in is what we have done definitely a LOT of times, that's a conscious approach to life. Even if the soul has a skipped step symbol it still the s.node which has been developed via a great length of time when there is a skipped step something is missed out on something is misunderstood somewhere along the line which makes the soul stuck. (By the way every T-square represents this kind of "being stuck" in consciousness in different degrees of intensity, depending on the symbols and the rest of the chart.)In this case the s.node is in the 6th house and although it starts with libra, the s.node is in scorpio. This correlates to our intentions, our motivations amongst other things. S.node being here would suggest a soul who have desired and made efforts to improve and purify it's soul's intentions: a lot of work trying to sort out, analyse, discriminate and improve itself.
To become aware of it's own reasons so to speak, and the fact that there has been some sort of guilt within the soul for which the soul was trying to "atone" for a long long time is also symbolised here.

3) The problem with the nodal axis is that it is one of the MAJOR weights in our self conscious consciousness. We are so used to our s.node we can't even recognise it.  Also it needs to taken into consideration the original trauma (chiron) which I mentioned above as one general story but that has been repeated more than once in different dresses.....which marked the beginning of the current evolutionary cycle. An evolutionary cycle is trying to culminate with the n.node falling in the 12th. This is important to understand. We are talking about at least a few thousands years culmination intention here. So we need to be very careful about the actual meaning of the symbols.... (i.e. conj. s.node= the WHOLE evolutionary cycle is directly related to this) Also, let me suggest a thought here: scorpio has an interesting correlation: entrapment. When s.node is scorpio the soul felt for a very long time being ENTRAPPED. In something in some ways. Also the fact that the 6th/12th axis is the archetype for (amongst other things) the sado/masochistic psychology. Yet let's remember it is also the archetype of spiritual development and ideas beliefs etc...the soul being in the 1st spiritual it is very very important here. 
Everything else comes after we understand this underlying pattern along with the skipped steps (meaning even though the soul was trying to get out of its own self imposed entrapment it was not able to yet!)

4) Every "entrapment" is always with no EXCEPTION based on an underlying misunderstand. Deeply ingrained in the soul. Can you unravel what could this particular soul's misunderstanding be here: 6th house s.node in Scorpio: wanting to atone for something that is fundamentally inherent to the soul (scorpio). What's going to happen when we try to do that? Is it not distortion? And what capr. venus and saturn in 4th symbolises in this case? What has been distorted here? Why?   
The soul in this case perceived itself as "not good enough" for whatever reasons but the result was trying to deny (6th house) a part of itself which it thought was "not okay". This particularly relates to close intimate relationships (scorpio). But it also relates to secrets that the soul was trying to deny. Why?  What else is the 12/6th house correlates to? The beliefs of inferiority/superiority which leads to sado masochism. What was the preveiling spiritual teachings of the last few thousands years?
Remember the wound of chiron the start of this cycle is pointing back that far...12th house n.node a whole BIG evolutionary cycle is trying to culminate here.....
In short can we see here the issue of MASOCHISM that the soul willfully put on itself...(willful:scorpio and mars...both say the same thing: mars in virgo scorpio s.node in 6th)  it was played out in many ways but very intensely in the emotionally closest relationships, family and partners...(4th ruler of the scorpio s.node)

5) Attracting people (Venus) who will be both, suppressive of their own emotions and will suppress/oppress the emotions of the soul. (venus in capr. in the 8th is HOW the soul attracts. Question again is why?)  So in this case FORCEFULLY suppressive partners. (scorpio s.node +capr. venus as the ingredients of the kinds of relationships =playing out its need for "atonement" via sado/masochism:  likely physical abuse next to the emotional psychological abuse) So as for trying to 2control everything" have a second look: for it is very likely that the soul was not able to control much of anything for a long time  especially relative to it's most immediate familial environment either as a child or an adult. (sat. moon conj. in the 4th with pluto)

The real question is why the soul has chosen these kinds of experiences? Can you try it again from here?

If we can perceive the picture this way and now we put in the fact that the soul is in the 1st spiritual what could be the real causative factor for the active and severe masochism that is actually played out in this chart?
There is always a big fat misunderstanding in each one of us in some ways, what we're trying to recover from...what is this chart this soul misunderstanding,...what is the half truth half illusion and how was that DISTORTED within it's consciousness and why?



6) What pluto in the 4th suggesting here? Is it not the fact that the soul unconsciously waiting for positive feedback, love, acceptance etc.  from OTHERS, yet attracting others in close relationships who will give something very different to say the least as "feedback" in close partner and familial relationships. Which then affects, confuses and distorts the self image. Why?

This chart indeed is a good example how it is so easy to make false judgments based on misunderstandings and how easy it is to overlook the real problem and yet think that a soul done something else wrong....it sure doe things wrong as we all do, but WHY? What is the bottomline here and relative to that bottomline what was the soul reaction?

By the way, with this chart pattern one needs to be very careful, the soul's sensitivity is at peak. (4th house stellium) It is very possible that the soul will take every and any feedback very sensitively and personally of course. (This one you pointed out Ari right, that's true, but there IS a reason for it and that's the bottomline of the chart.) Reason being the soul will “hear” via the capr. filter of venus, it will hear “judgment” even when it is not intended. The CONDITIONED inner messages relating to itself has become negative and this negative inner “hearing” will overlay anything the soul hears...this is one of the reason why the soul has attracted the wrong type of people in the past those who at first say all the good things, all the accepting acknowledging etc. things YET they have an ulterior agenda that the soul will found out only too late...this sensitivity makes the soul susceptible to fall “prey” to the so called “silver tongue devil” type...as long as the n.node and ppp isn’t embraced. But question is what prevented the soul to arrive there and why was it stuck in the s.node? 

Does this make sense Ari? Do you mind to start over?  ;D ::)
For the truth is that, when we misunderstand the bottomline of a chart we will misinterpret the whole lot even though we may have some good insights in-between YET the overall interpretation will be misleading...


Love and blessings,

Lia

 






Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on May 30, 2009, 12:59 AM
lia, you rock! i appreciate this a lot.

I do want to start over.
First, i want to understand why reading things like sado-maso would be inappropriate for a first stage spiritual. my only hunch is that if a soul is currently in spiritual state, it implies that the karmic processes in this life relate to the choices they have previously made that would be appropriate for a first stage spiritual to be addressing. in other words, first stage spiritual wont be relating to their evolutionary intent through the karmic process of any other evolutionary state. therefore, we must read past lives from the perspective of first stage spiritual- thus excluding sado maso. Is this correct?


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 30, 2009, 08:04 AM
Hi Ari,

Well right the contrary it is INDEED appropriate to apply sado/masochism in a spiritual state! Absolutely appropriate it just needs to be UNDERSTOOD in a way that it will play out in the souls' consciousness. I.e. in this case the soul believed IT IS what god ordained, and believed that masochism is the way to spiritually grow...
If a soul believe that it is inherently "sinful" (for heaven's sake it is NOT what all kinds of patriarchal religions are teaching? :-) what will be the consequence for a soul in the spiritual state? Would it NOT want to do what it thinks god wants from it?

For this is the whole point, the moment the soul believed in that started to do everything it could RELATIVE TO WHAT IT BELIEVED (relative to the spiritual teachings  of any life time) to obey god's will...to "atone" for what ever is "not perfect" within it, relative to those BELIEFS...

It is very very important to understand sado/masochism in the spiritual state! It is the very reason for this soul (and many others) for perceiving itself as somehow "not good enough".

Imagine that: a soul in the spiritual eventually believes that everything sexual (scoprio) is a sin....Can you see in this chart that is the BEGINNING of this very cycle, the soul have been a highly sexual being and used that sexuality as a means to evolve it's consciousness to further its' spiritual state....then it was judged as an absolute sin. Right the soul at one point believed it was true. So it was trying to sacrifice that (taurus, sensuality is in the 12the) the soul thought OK if that's not right I am over with that.

Sure :-)) WILL THAT ACTUALY HAPPEN IN ACTUAL REALITY? Can you get rid of something natural? Look at venus: the soul SUPPRESED thought it was wrong, judged it's attraction and sexual urges wrong! (mars also! Typically wasn't honest about those things for believing they were wrong.)
When we believe something eventually we will try to live accordingly....that's where the real dishonesty started the denial started...i.e.: my goodness how can I have sexual desires when I am suppose to be all "pure" and without it all....sooner or later god itself makes us see when we are not honest to ourselves....
So what the soul done then? Was trying to ATONE for it...atone for the sin, atone for something it judged wrong at the first place...
This is the start here...the original thing is a total absolute bullseye ALWAYS when a soul decided (scorpio) to do something totally unnatural....
This is the starting point here, masochism was the EXPECTED and ENDORSED way for spiritual development during the last few thousand of years...
Look what's the ruler of neptune (our greatest illusions relative to how we perceive it) what was the belief with that capr. venus? To totally SUPPRESS the senses for they are wrong sinful etc. etc....

The story starts from here in essence...the soul at one point decided to suppress something natural within itself because it believed it was wrong, it thought this is what's "good" this is god wants .....

It all starts from by that initial misunderstanding....of course not at once but via several life time when the soul was made feel dirty and bad etc. ....but when the belief eventually taken in, it becomes the operative factor of everything that comes after...then the manifold consequences the reaction to all this etc. etc. develop through time via many many lives many events and the final eventual intent in all that is to learn from it and remove/recover the original misunderstanding as the causative factor behind it all.......

Does this make more sense this way?  :)


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on May 30, 2009, 11:02 AM
thank you! Now i feel like i finally "got" scorpio in the 6th.

So we're looking at a soul that has learned to see itself as inherantly flawed (6th) based on the nature of it's very desires (sorpio). That naturally created a lot of guilt and thus the need to atone for that guilt.

Coming back to Pluto- the soul has desired to inhabit it's own security. the problem was, the soul also believed that there was also something wrong with it. in order to establish security, the soul has chosen a family, tribe, hertiage (4th house) that persecuted her for who she is/what she does.

This persecution, catalyzed the tendency within the soul to further punish itself. all of life in some way reflected back to the soul the impurity it felt in itself (scorpio 6). The Taurus nn also being squared implies the occasional supression of sexuality all together, being celibate or trying to be pure. but ultimately being that what is supressed becomes distorted- her sexuality HAD to express itself in some way, and this is where we can read the pattern of masochism (scorpio 6).

Quote
4) Every "entrapment" is always with no EXCEPTION based on an underlying misunderstand. Deeply ingrained in the soul. Can you unravel what could this particular soul's misunderstanding be here: 6th house s.node in Scorpio: wanting to atone for something that is fundamentally inherent to the soul (scorpio). What's going to happen when we try to do that? Is it not distortion? And what capr. venus and saturn in 4th symbolises in this case? What has been distorted here? Why?

So adding to what I just said- the intense degree of sensitivity and awareness of how her culture and family judged sexuality and love. her very nature as a sexual being has been distorted. As a female in past lives she has been an authority of sorts that helped others with healing- using knowledge and by being naturally connected to feminine consciousness: herbs, sexuality etc (venus in cap 8th functioning through scorpio 6th). Also saturn moon in leo in the 4th= matriarch. At some point or another her practices, and her role was no longer acceptable by society. The unconditional love and acceptance became judgement and persectution. This has served the purpose for her soul to detach from relying on others to feel loved and find that within (ppp), setting the stage for a long evolutionary journey.
  
Quote
The soul in this case perceived itself as "not good enough" for whatever reasons but the result was trying to deny (6th house) a part of itself which it thought was "not okay". This particularly relates to close intimate relationships (scorpio). But it also relates to secrets that the soul was trying to deny. Why?  What else is the 12/6th house correlates to? The beliefs of inferiority/superiority which leads to sado masochism. What was the preveiling spiritual teachings of the last few thousands years?
Remember the wound of chiron the start of this cycle is pointing back that far...12th house n.node a whole BIG evolutionary cycle is trying to culminate here.....
In short can we see here the issue of MASOCHISM that the soul willfully put on itself...(willful:scorpio and mars...both say the same thing: mars in virgo scorpio s.node in 6th)  it was played out in many ways but very intensely in the emotionally closest relationships, family and partners...(4th ruler of the scorpio s.node)

5) Attracting people (Venus) who will be both, suppressive of their own emotions and will suppress/oppress the emotions of the soul. (venus in capr. in the 8th is HOW the soul attracts. Question again is why?)  So in this case FORCEFULLY suppressive partners. (scorpio s.node +capr. venus as the ingredients of the kinds of relationships =playing out its need for "atonement" via sado/masochism:  likely physical abuse next to the emotional psychological abuse) So as for trying to 2control everything" have a second look: for it is very likely that the soul was not able to control much of anything for a long time  especially relative to it's most immediate familial environment either as a child or an adult. (sat. moon conj. in the 4th with pluto)

I'll stop here for now and await further response. Thank you for this guidance. I hope this is meaningful and educational for other forum members as well!


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on May 30, 2009, 01:10 PM
Hi Ari,

just one important clarification: the 4th house,cancer, moon is the very antitheses of what you assumed...Ii.e  having inner security within....T IS INDEED the evolutionary lesson in it but that comes via embracing its opposite 10th house/ capr....
So in simple terms cancer the 4th house is DEPENDENT on other people in fulfilling it's emotional needs... it comes from that end of the equation so to speak, that other people will fulfill my valid emotional needs...4th house, cancer DOES NOT KNOW in itself that it can fulfill those needs from within that's why the lesson to be learned....it has very very intense emotions and learns through the teaching of those emotions.....that's the evolutionary intent in it ...to arrive at the end to the polarity embracing it.....so we are talking about a soul's evolutionary path to get there....in the past this was not known.....

Otherwise what you said is pretty good!
But i thought this is a key issue to understand relative to the issues here relative to self image and the 4th house and why the soul was stuck in the past patterns...it is BECAUSE it was dependent on other people emotionally....and because of that dependence and need for positive feedback (leo on 4th) it went deeper and deeper into masochism AND DENYING PART OF ITSELF..... even it's evolutionary state was hidden remember? Trying to compensate (sag in 7th) to eventually somehow get what it needed, acceptance and love....of course that's a very valid need but what happens when we have a misunderstanding in our consciousness and trying to get it via masochism for example and via denying part of ourselves? Funny thing is even if we have some sort of love is it for ourselves or is it for the denial? Are we accepted and loved when we have  some sort of "love" for something deep down we know it is not really "us"....for a while we may fool ourselves of course...we may deny the actual reality (this is what the soul also has done of course that's part of masochism)

Actually there is a real trick in evolution which I observed via many many clients past and present lives...i.e. if we were able to get any valid needs met on a mistaken way, would we not believe it is all fine? :-) we would keep doing it.....wouldn't we? :-) It is the fact that it does not bring what we hoped it would that propels us out of something......Think about it....

So what happened in this soul's history relative to its emotional needs as it was trying to fulfil them in a mistaken way? Were things going better or worst do you think?

Also another aspect of perceiving sat. and moon in the 4th: it is like if the emotional "gas pedal" and the "break" both pushed in full on at the same time ....what's going to happen to our vehicle when we do that?......the "vehicle" of course is the emotional body....4th house....then lets remember that these symbols are conscious very conscious yet pluto is also there which isn't conscious yet the whole thing is about to get there at one point and metamorphose the overall consciousness of the soul...that's the aim....there have been attempts of course to embrace the n.node earlier the square tells it....

Also wanted to say it is great how you perceive a lot of things right about the soul's overall dynamics and abilities! So go for it add these bits and try to go perhaps one step a time....like what this or that could cause to consciousness and what kind of behaviour compensation etc. was the result.....that the soul employed and where did that lead....like lets try to understand why was the soul hiding within a consensus environment for example?
...and then what may have happened when it tried to show itself time to time?  ???

Adina,
if you are around and have the energy it would be great to hear your thoughts! I really didn't mean to "lead" this conversation just couldn't help but correct the misunderstandings in between.......

So please, if you can jump in!  ;D
Hope you are well enough for that...?

Much love and blessings,
Lia







Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Deva on May 31, 2009, 12:33 PM
Hi, I wanted to add a dynamic I saw in this this chart as well. In the context of Pluto in Leo/4th house and all the other planets in Leo/4th house and the South Node in Scorpio in the 6th house I feel that her natural nature is now a source of guilt in and of itself-i.e- she has taken in conditioning patterns that will invalidate her natural nature and this has become a source of trauma (Uranus inconjunction that was stated earlier, and Venus in cap/8th house). With Venus in capricorn in the 8th house the respression of her own natural needs and nature created a repression of her emotional body in general. This is what I feel has been stated by Lia but I wanted to make the point that because of this guilt/past trauma that is unresolved it will lead to her not being able to accept aknowledgement or validation by others who do see and understand who she is at a Soul level (PLuto in Leo/4th creates a compulsive need for recongition and validation externally). She will undermine this type of validation because of the inner inferiority that is in place. With JUpiter/Sun in Sag/7th and South Node in Scorpio in the 6th house interpretation of the external feedback she is getting is critical. In a negative application she could hear (Venus in Cap/8th house) others has being judgmenal or overly critical of her when this is not the case. The point within this is that untill she learns to validate and accept herself as she is her natural nature cannot heal, and the dynamic of compensation (Sag/7th house Sun and Jupiter) will be maintained. I wanted to add these bottom lines for feedback and to summerize what I feel Lia has been stating as bottom lines within the chart.
Thanks again for posting this chart!
Deva


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on May 31, 2009, 09:44 PM
Hi all. I'm so sorry for the delay in feedback, but the cage has been even less cooperative than usual. Sigh. Just comes with the territory at this point, but it does slow down everything I try to do.  :(   Lia, please don't worry about taking the "lead." It's a good thing you did, considering how unpredictable my situation/health is from day to day and sometimes hour to hour.  Talk about learning to live in the moment!  LOL

I SOOO appreciate all the analysis so far; everyone's doing a great job! And you've given me a LOT of material to respond to. So I plan to get started tomorrow (Monday) and will try to go thru it in some kind of orderly fashion, in spite of my current TR Neptune challenges.   ;D  ::)

Thanks again to you all!  This is a neat experience for me, too!

God bless,
Adina


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 03, 2009, 10:49 AM
hey adina, i cant wait to hear what you have to say! i'm really enjoying your blog btw, i look forward to more.

my mind and emotions are feeling boggled, so im going to take a step back and listen more than talk right now. (saturn is squaring my sag sn gemini nn!!  ???) but one question i have right now is how the sag archetype relates to compensation- and in particular, in this chart how do you know to read it that way?

thank you


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on Jun 03, 2009, 12:22 PM
Thanks for your kind words, Ari!  

I’m working on a larger response, but in answer to your question here about compensation, since Jup/Sag/9th house has to do with belief systems, to ME, the issue of compensation can occur when one’s belief system lies outside, or is contrary to, the consensus beliefs, which, for the most part, tend to be a “one size fits all” phenomenon. Most of us (until HIGHLY evolved) can feel very alone, very excluded, and thus, very insecure (even to the point of feeling our very survival is at stake) when we don’t “fit,” so we adopt an APPEARANCE, a MASK of “normalcy” by adapting/adopting (outwardly) TO the belief systems of the consensus. The compensation could take many forms, of course.

In my chart, with it in the 7th house, it’s really graphic, because it’s thru Libra/7th house) that we compare ourselves to others; we try on different “hats” to discover who we are and are not. In relation to belief systems, then, specifically it meant hiding who I truly was, what I thought, believed, etc., because in prior lives it had actually been deadly  (Sun/Jupiter trine Pluto in 4, plus Jupiter ruling 8) to express what I actually DID believe, and/or know from personal experience (Jup/Sag/9th).  You can also see from the 4th house connection, how family belief systems and demands were part of that persecution. We can take this particular aspect farther by drawing in the Pallas in Pisces in the 10th, which squares the nodes, Mercury AND the Jupiter/Sun, opposes the Saturn/Moon in Leo and Mars in Virgo in 4, and trines the Uranus in Gem in 2, which inconjucts the s node Mercury, ruled by the Pluto, which trines the Sun/Jup. Another form the compensation took was to do work that “society” (Cap on 9 ruled by Saturn in 4, etc) thought appropriate, rather than what I wanted, again reflecting the “survival” issue.  There's more, but this is a good start.  AND, as always, seeing this sag as compensation would go back to observed context, i.e., talking with the client.

Does this make sense to you and help, Ari?


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 03, 2009, 02:13 PM
absolutely, thank you.


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Kristin on Jun 03, 2009, 05:37 PM
hi adina..hello all..

Been thinking lots about you Adina...I hope I am not repeating myself here but wanted to share a few things..First of all, I remember hearing from Wolf that it takes an Extreme to counteract an Extreme..and extremity is 7th house/Libra where Adina's Sun and Sun's ruler sits. For example, in order to finally have the courage to face the judgement or an extreme authoritarian and walk on anyway may create a dynamic where a Soul is born into a situation where everything is so extreme that you cannot help but Know who you are..by observing the exact opposite..it is as if everything is in opposition to what feels true for you..Souls not only set these lives up in this way for karmic reasons but also to ensure that they blast out of a repeating dyanmic that has caused too much delay in the growth of the Soul. The pain of that kind of living lie is so harsh that anything would be better ie the famous xpression, " How did I end up in this family?" It takes crazy courage to find your way out of an abusive past and then to look at why you were there in the first place. But often times with a prominent 4th house, the Soul is literally ON THEIR own, so thrown back on themselves and as weak as they may feel, they are the strongest thing thay have got. I remember in Yogananda's book when he is a child and his mother dies and he is BEYOND heartbroken, Deva shares this story in her new book, that this had to occur in order to more fully access the heavenly mother.. he has a strong 4th/10th axis..he wrote about the event in his book as if it were yesterday..still so in the emotion of the loss..still so in the emotion of the great love for his mom. So even someone like him, so evolved, so fated to lead people back to the natural God, experiences this heartbreaking loss, throwing him back into himself. The 4th house is the most vulnerable place on the wheel because we stay so in our human emotion there..so forced into human emotions, so needing to feel secure and safe like a child, yet rarely feeling secure. The 4th house is about feeling totally naked, stripped down in every way and yet that nakedness and vulnerbaility will lead you back to God through the natural water trinity..it starts there..it must start there..then moves to Scorpio..Soul..then to Pisces..Spirit...the only way HOME is via this path.  I see this life for you Adina as one where your soul committed, Venus in Cap 8th..trining Mars in Virgo..to purge all the impurities that you have carried with you, the impurites of the past..SN 6th in Scorpio..ruler 4th..also to purge the heart wrenching guilt you feel about something you may have done..perhaps setting up dymanics where you felt so respsonsible for something that occurred that you swore you would never allow yourself to feel good again..it is like you made a vow of suffering....and of course that is not what God wants for you..to personally take yourself out of the game... but simply to learn, to forgive yourself, your Soul..NN in 12th..ruler in Cap in the 8th..forgive your Soul and release the guilt.. and to make adjustments, 6th house SN..and then to find your natural way back to God...sun/Jupiter in Sag balalmic trining your 4th house Pluto, whcih rules the SN.your natural relationship with God...which YOU HAVE DONE so beautifully..Your Pluto in the 4th literally means to me an opportunity to purge the impurities, and we all have them..(it must happen for any Soul evolving through the 1st stage spiritual - A virgo stage of humility and service..karma yoga in the 1st stage spiritual) the ruler of your SN in Scorpio in the 6th is that Pluto....to purge and purify the darkness..the personal judgements, the gravity in your soul..to release the weights... This life I feel was so extreme because your Soul was ready to make a move on. You are done avoiding what must be done.. and as Wolf used to say, if you are not doing the real Soul work, you are just 'marking time'..you have come here to do some serious purging and healing, really not many moments to rest, and with that it always is accompanied by physical pain..The emotional pain also fueled the physical complications...6th house/4th house..This is called the HEALING CRISIS. It is always hard for me to wrap my head and heart around human suffering, although "the soul does create its reality and it does create what it needs in order to evolve", but much of your own suffering may have been taken to unnecessary heights, self inflicted suffering, your Soul feeling like you 'deserved' it..6th house SN..Mars in Virgo, Saturn conjunct Moon in the 4th..etc.
SO it takes an extreme to counteract an extreme  7th house Sun.Jup in Sag IS a theme OF CALIBRATING THE SELF, RECOVERING THE NATURAL BELIEFS VERSUS THE FORCED FED BELEIFS OF OTHERS.. AND TO CALIBRATE THE SOUL..VENUS NATURALLY RULES THE 7TH (CALIBRATION) AND IS IN THE 8TH IN CAP..CALIBRATE THE SOUL..NEW STRUCTURES/COMMITMENTS THAT REFLECT THE NATURAL YOU, A SOUL WHO NATURALLY GIVES AND WANTS ONLY TO HELP OTHERS AND SERVE ( SN 6th in Scorpio, humble service, soul worker...ruler Pluto in Leo in the 4th, trining Sun/Jupiter in the 7th - helping others get back to the natural Goddess - leading others back to the truth ) ..THAT IS YOU..
love, kristin


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on Jun 04, 2009, 01:12 PM
Hi Ari. Comments below.

thank you! Now i feel like i finally "got" scorpio in the 6th.

So we're looking at a soul that has learned to see itself as inherantly flawed (6th) based on the nature of it's very desires (sorpio). That naturally created a lot of guilt and thus the need to atone for that guilt.

You got it, Ari: the core operative dynamic of masochism.

Coming back to Pluto- the soul has desired to inhabit it's own security. the problem was, the soul also believed that there was also something wrong with it. in order to establish security, the soul has chosen a family, tribe, hertiage (4th house) that persecuted her for who she is/what she does.

While security is based on the past--what we know--and CAN result in creating and staying in abusive situations, establishing security was not the main reason for creating abusive family situations. That, again, comes from from the masochism, or as Wolf put it, the inner dialogue of a masochist is, "I deserve pain, punishment, suffering, denial, and I don't know why." Until the soul figures out the "why" and then counteracts it, it will continue to create abusive situations. In addition, in a spiritual state of evolution, there's also an element of spiritual masochism (as Lia pointed out), in that this soul also "sacrificed" (n node in 12) to try to help the parents learn something.

This persecution, catalyzed the tendency within the soul to further punish itself. all of life in some way reflected back to the soul the impurity it felt in itself (scorpio 6). The Taurus nn also being squared implies the occasional supression of sexuality all together, being celibate or trying to be pure. but ultimately being that what is supressed becomes distorted- her sexuality HAD to express itself in some way, and this is where we can read the pattern of masochism (scorpio 6).

Yes, and that include lifetimes of being a nun/monk, etc. But then take it beyond just the sexuality. There are many aspects/dimensions to each and every soul, as well as reflected in each planet, aspect, etc., so the masochism comes from a variety of experiences/sources and colors every aspect of the life, or CAN.

Quote
4) Every "entrapment" is always with no EXCEPTION based on an underlying misunderstand. Deeply ingrained in the soul. Can you unravel what could this particular soul's misunderstanding be here: 6th house s.node in Scorpio: wanting to atone for something that is fundamentally inherent to the soul (scorpio). What's going to happen when we try to do that? Is it not distortion? And what capr. venus and saturn in 4th symbolises in this case? What has been distorted here? Why?

So adding to what I just said- the intense degree of sensitivity and awareness of how her culture and family judged sexuality and love. her very nature as a sexual being has been distorted.

Again, it goes beyond her nature as a sexual being.... it's about who she intrinsically is at a soul level that has been denied and judged by others, leading to her own inner distortion of herself. I think you picked up on this somewhat in your next paragraph.

As a female in past lives she has been an authority of sorts that helped others with healing- using knowledge and by being naturally connected to feminine consciousness: herbs, sexuality etc (venus in cap 8th functioning through scorpio 6th). Also saturn moon in leo in the 4th= matriarch. At some point or another her practices, and her role was no longer acceptable by society. The unconditional love and acceptance became judgement and persecution. This has served the purpose for her soul to detach from relying on others to feel loved and find that within (ppp), setting the stage for a long evolutionary journey.

Good, Ari. One manifestation of this was at least one lifetime during the Inquisition in which this soul was tortured for speaking in terms contrary to consensus beliefs and opinions. One particular lifetime this happened was in France (Leo). Now, what do you suppose THAT could do to a soul? What effect would it have? And how would you identify it (planets/aspects/houses, etc) in the birth chart?
  
I'll stop here for now and await further response. Thank you for this guidance. I hope this is meaningful and educational for other forum members as well!

Ari, thank you for participating! You're doing quite well. Now, keep going. Look at some of the other aspects/lessons of a 4th house pluto; e.g., the issue of anima/animus, as well as more about HOW to create the inner emotional security besides just detaching from what others' think. Do you have Wolf's first Pluto book or Deva's new book? Either one or both of these would help you expand on te archetypes.


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on Jun 05, 2009, 09:56 AM
Hey Lia, I am finally tackling all these terrific posts, this wonderful analysis, piece by piece, so..... below.....


Hi Ari,

just one important clarification: the 4th house,cancer, moon is the very antitheses of what you assumed...Ii.e  having inner security within....T IS INDEED the evolutionary lesson in it but that comes via embracing its opposite 10th house/ capr....
So in simple terms cancer the 4th house is DEPENDENT on other people in fulfilling it's emotional needs... it comes from that end of the equation so to speak, that other people will fulfill my valid emotional needs...4th house, cancer DOES NOT KNOW in itself that it can fulfill those needs from within that's why the lesson to be learned....it has very very intense emotions and learns through the teaching of those emotions.....that's the evolutionary intent in it ...to arrive at the end to the polarity embracing it.....so we are talking about a soul's evolutionary path to get there....in the past this was not known.....

Right Lia, plus a few other points I think we can bring in both in general and specific to this chart; i.e., all those 4th house planets square the nodes... with the south node being in the 6th/Virgo house, and Mars also IN Virgo, so we have the additional dynamic - the INTENSIFICATION - of expecting emotional security from others, one way being by denying the very emotions themselves, again leading to and intensifying those emotions (thru intense experiences) in order to get the soul, the ego's attention, so to speak. And another dynamic of the cancer archetype is to focus on the past, so you can see how this dynamic adds TO the masochism... i.e., looking backward all the time helps keep the negative tapes in the head rolling along, and also keeps those emotions at somewhat of a standstill until something blows them out of the water.  We also have to look to the PP (10th)  in order to metamorphose the emotional body as well.  So to Ari and all, what would that look like? What needs to happen thru the 10th house, in addition to what's been said here, to effect emotional security?

Otherwise what you said is pretty good!
But i thought this is a key issue to understand relative to the issues here relative to self image and the 4th house and why the soul was stuck in the past patterns...it is BECAUSE it was dependent on other people emotionally....and because of that dependence and need for positive feedback (leo on 4th) it went deeper and deeper into masochism AND DENYING PART OF ITSELF..... even it's evolutionary state was hidden remember? Trying to compensate (sag in 7th) to eventually somehow get what it needed, acceptance and love....of course that's a very valid need but what happens when we have a misunderstanding in our consciousness and trying to get it via masochism for example and via denying part of ourselves? Funny thing is even if we have some sort of love is it for ourselves or is it for the denial? Are we accepted and loved when we have  some sort of "love" for something deep down we know it is not really "us"....for a while we may fool ourselves of course...we may deny the actual reality (this is what the soul also has done of course that's part of masochism)

Yes again, Lia. I also want to point out that the compensation is tied to denying part of the self. Also consider that this can create some natural guilt because the soul knows it's not being honest with itself. So again, this is all reflected in the natural grand cross. And using the orbs that Wolf did, my Mars in Virgo is also square the Jupiter/Sun.

Actually there is a real trick in evolution which I observed via many many clients past and present lives...i.e. if we were able to get any valid needs met on a mistaken way, would we not believe it is all fine? :-) we would keep doing it.....wouldn't we? :-) It is the fact that it does not bring what we hoped it would that propels us out of something......Think about it....

Too true, Lia. As horrible as something may be, if there's a payoff, we stay put. Also, in this case, consider again that Cancer/moon/4th can focus on the past, so it's "easy" to stay right where we were.

So what happened in this soul's history relative to its emotional needs as it was trying to fulfill them in a mistaken way? Were things going better or worst do you think?

Also another aspect of perceiving sat. and moon in the 4th: it is like if the emotional "gas pedal" and the "break" both pushed in full on at the same time ....what's going to happen to our vehicle when we do that?......the "vehicle" of course is the emotional body....4th house....then lets remember that these symbols are conscious very conscious yet pluto is also there which isn't conscious yet the whole thing is about to get there at one point and metamorphose the overall consciousness of the soul...that's the aim....there have been attempts of course to embrace the n.node earlier the square tells it....

Also wanted to say it is great how you perceive a lot of things right about the soul's overall dynamics and abilities! So go for it add these bits and try to go perhaps one step a time....like what this or that could cause to consciousness and what kind of behaviour compensation etc. was the result.....that the soul employed and where did that lead....like lets try to understand why was the soul hiding within a consensus environment for example?
...and then what may have happened when it tried to show itself time to time?  ???

Adina,
if you are around and have the energy it would be great to hear your thoughts! I really didn't mean to "lead" this conversation just couldn't help but correct the misunderstandings in between.......

So please, if you can jump in!  ;D
Hope you are well enough for that...?

Much love and blessings,
Lia

Great questions and observations, Lia. I'm leaving some of them so others can add to the analysis if they wish, because you've asked some good ones to point the way to uncovering the dynamics! Thanks so much for all this!

God bless, love, adina







Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on Jun 07, 2009, 11:05 AM
Little by little I'm getting there with the responses...    :)

Deva, I thought I'd just copy and paste your entry with my responses inserted (in blue) where appropriate. Thank you SOOO much for your feedback/analysis!

So, you started out with the following....


Hi, I wanted to add a dynamic I saw in this this chart as well. In the context of Pluto in Leo/4th house and all the other planets in Leo/4th house and the South Node in Scorpio in the 6th house I feel that her natural nature is now a source of guilt in and of itself-i.e- she has taken in conditioning patterns that will invalidate her natural nature and this has become a source of trauma (Uranus inconjunction that was stated earlier, and Venus in cap/8th house). With Venus in capricorn in the 8th house the repression of her own natural needs and nature created a repression of her emotional body in general. This is what I feel has been stated by Lia

Deva, I agree, and this is an excellent way to phrase it.

but I wanted to make the point that because of this guilt/past trauma that is unresolved it will lead to her not being able to accept aknowledgement or validation by others who do see and understand who she is at a Soul level (PLuto in Leo/4th creates a compulsive need for recognition and validation externally).

The way I experienced this was the desire for someone to see who I ACtually am. It wasn’t so much just a need for recognition as such, if you understand what I mean. Needless to say, with that 4th house stellium, I didn’t GET that external validation, at least not from my immediate family. It DID take someone who could see and validate me at a SOUL level (i.e., JWG  :) ) and then give me the WAYS to being building my own inner security, to validate myself from within, etc.

I'll also add here, that early on in my counseling with JWG, I expressed my thoughts that I understood how someone's ego could get out of hand, too full of itself, etc. and I was concerned about that (Leo moon in 4), and he very firmly told me that I had done that number on myself before and to stop it, that the Leo moon (in balsamic conjunction to Mars in Virgo) was, in fact, there in order to re-inflate my ego, and if it got out of hand, so be it. At some point it would correct itself.  :) Now WHEN have you EVER heard another astrologer say THAT about LEO?!  LOL

She will undermine this type of validation because of the inner inferiority that is in place.

Yep, but within the above caveat (JWG)…and one way it manifested was thru the inability to even accept a sincere compliment. This really is the seeming paradox within this dynamic.... the desire to be validated, recognized for who I actually am and what I can do, and at the same time not accept it when I was because the damage to who I actually am was so deep.

I'd also like to add that with my Merc also in Scorp, conjunct the south node and square the 4th house planets - but specific to the square to Saturn, I had to UNlearn all kinds of negative messages about myself, including the incessant, but very subliminal, messages that I was stupid. For me, part of the unlearning took place by going back to school (university) when my kids were grown and earning my bachelors degree in English. Although I maintained a four-point for that 3 1/2 years, I had to overcome the 2.93 I had when I left school back in the 60s! LOL 

With Jupiter/Sun in Sag/7th and South Node in Scorpio in the 6th house interpretation of the external feedback she is getting is critical. In a negative application she could hear (Venus in Cap/8th house) others has being judgmenal or overly critical of her when this is not the case.  

Yes, Deva, exactly. And until I started studying EA, as well as learn to validate myself from within this dynamic was not even conscious. Once it became conscious I could at least take one step back and try to view it objectively. I have made a lot of progress in this area, but since healing of this dynamic is still new within this lifetime, I know I have to be very careful not to slip back into past patterning; i.e., I have to be consciously aware that I may take something someone says in a way they didn’t intend it. But I’m definitely making progress!  

The point within this is that untill she learns to validate and accept herself as she is her natural nature cannot heal, and the dynamic of compensation (Sag/7th house Sun and Jupiter) will be maintained.
 
Yes, indeed, and as I recovered who I am…. or as JWG once put it “recover and redesign myself according to natural law (Sun/Jup in sag)…..THEN the  compensation was jettisoned!  Yay!  If we take into account that Jupiter is my final depositor… and therefore EVERYTHING else in my chart is ‘filtered” thru that, then we can also see how crucial this lesson was/is!

I wanted to add these bottom lines for feedback and to summerize what I feel Lia has been stating as bottom lines within the chart.
Thanks again for posting this chart!
Deva

Thank YOU again, love and blessings, adina


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on Jun 11, 2009, 09:27 AM
Hi Kristin, I'm so sorry it took me so long to respond to your wonderful analysis. But finally, here it is. Thank you SO much for doing this!  I copied your post below and inserted my responses where appropriate in a different color font. 

hi adina..hello all..

Been thinking lots about you Adina...I hope I am not repeating myself here but wanted to share a few things..First of all, I remember hearing from Wolf that it takes an Extreme to counteract an Extreme..and extremity is 7th house/Libra where Adina's Sun and Sun's ruler sits. For example, in order to finally have the courage to face the judgement or an extreme authoritarian and walk on anyway may create a dynamic where a Soul is born into a situation where everything is so extreme that you cannot help but Know who you are..by observing the exact opposite..it is as if everything is in opposition to what feels true for you..Souls not only set these lives up in this way for karmic reasons but also to ensure that they blast out of a repeating dyanmic that has caused too much delay in the growth of the Soul.

That’s exACTly the kind of situation I created. Indeed, it really was like what Wolf used to call the “hand grenade in the steel box!” I really had to blow that sucker OPEN! I think you’ve brought up a very important function of Libra – the extremity – that’s pertinent both individually AND collectively. When we look at history, it seems that events always play out this way – the pendulum swings so far one direction that it finally has to swing just as far the other direction before it can settle back into the middle. Reminds me of the  “point – counterpoint” skits on the old SNL shows!

The pain of that kind of living lie is so harsh that anything would be better ie the famous xpression, " How did I end up in this family?"

I really got a good laugh out of that one, Kristin. I can’t TELL you how many times I asked that exact question – and THEN I found EA!

 It takes crazy courage to find your way out of an abusive past and then to look at why you were there in the first place. But often times with a prominent 4th house, the Soul is literally ON THEIR own, so thrown back on themselves and as weak as they may feel, they are the strongest thing they have got.

This is another excellent point, Kristin, i.e., first, the fact that I literally WAS on my own –  especially for emotional and psychological survival. And I think you’ve nailed it with your assessment that one can FEEL weak even while having to BE the strongest person necessary. From my experience, there are more 4th house plutos who experience life this way than there are ones who have the loving, supportive families.

I remember in Yogananda's book when he is a child and his mother dies and he is BEYOND heartbroken, Deva shares this story in her new book, that this had to occur in order to more fully access the heavenly mother.. he has a strong 4th/10th axis..he wrote about the event in his book as if it were yesterday..still so in the emotion of the loss..still so in the emotion of the great love for his mom. So even someone like him, so evolved, so fated to lead people back to the natural God, experiences this heartbreaking loss, throwing him back into himself.

I too remember this story, which is beautiful and touching, but also, for me, it’s encouraging as another example of not needing to be perfect in order to evolve, to know God, etc.

The 4th house is the most vulnerable place on the wheel because we stay so in our human emotion there..so forced into human emotions, so needing to feel secure and safe like a child, yet rarely feeling secure. The 4th house is about feeling totally naked, stripped down in every way and yet that nakedness and vulnerability will lead you back to God through the natural water trinity..it starts there..it must start there..then moves to Scorpio..Soul..then to Pisces..Spirit...the only way HOME is via this path.

Absolutely! There is no way around, over or under. You have to plow right through those emotions and feel every darn one of them in order to MAKE it thru. AND you can feel quite "crazy" when the same emotions - the ones you THOUGHT you'd already dealt with - resurface again and again - just in different ways and in different circumstances.

 I see this life for you Adina as one where your soul committed, Venus in Cap 8th..trining Mars in Virgo..to purge all the impurities that you have carried with you, the impurites of the past..SN 6th in Scorpio..ruler 4th..also to purge the heart wrenching guilt you feel about something you may have done..perhaps setting up dymanics where you felt so respsonsible for something that occurred that you swore you would never allow yourself to feel good again..it is like you made a vow of suffering....

Yep, once again, as described in the Pluto books, “I DESERVE pain, punishment, suffering, denial, and I don’t know why.”  But with the EA paradigm and wolf’s counseling over the years, I got a good start that has finally now blossoming into an entirely new and different mind set.

and of course that is not what God wants for you..to personally take yourself out of the game... but simply to learn, to forgive yourself, your Soul..NN in 12th..ruler in Cap in the 8th..forgive your Soul and release the guilt.. and to make adjustments, 6th house SN..and then to find your natural way back to God...sun/Jupiter in Sag balalmic trining your 4th house Pluto, whcih rules the SN.your natural relationship with God...which YOU HAVE DONE so beautifully..

Thank you for those kind words, Kristin. You’ve brought out an important part of that process with the Jupiter/Sag archetype, and redesigning myself according to NATURAL law… NATURAL principles, for that’s really the only way (in MY book) to really eradicate those deep feelings that one is inherently “flawed.”

Your Pluto in the 4th literally means to me an opportunity to purge the impurities, and we all have them..(it must happen for any Soul evolving through the 1st stage spiritual - A virgo stage of humility and service..karma yoga in the 1st stage spiritual) the ruler of your SN in Scorpio in the 6th is that Pluto....to purge and purify the darkness..the personal judgements, the gravity in your soul..to release the weights...

Yes, yes, yes!

This life I feel was so extreme because your Soul was ready to make a move on.

You got THAT right! And yet, in ORDER to move on, I had to go back and repeat SO much... to bring it to a head and then jettison it!

You are done avoiding what must be done.. and as Wolf used to say, if you are not doing the real Soul work, you are just 'marking time'..you have come here to do some serious purging and healing, really not many moments to rest,

… REST?  What’s that?!    ;D

 and with that it always is accompanied by physical pain..The emotional pain also fueled the physical complications...6th house/4th house..This is called the HEALING CRISIS. It is always hard for me to wrap my head and heart around human suffering, although "the soul does create its reality and it does create what it needs in order to evolve", but much of your own suffering may have been taken to unnecessary heights, self inflicted suffering, your Soul feeling like you 'deserved' it..6th house SN..Mars in Virgo, Saturn conjunct Moon in the 4th..etc.

Yes, again, another important point, related to masochism – self-inflicted. I used to tell people I got even better at beating myself up (emotionally, psychologically, etc.) than my parents were.  I picked up where they (and others before them in prior lives) left off and absolutely RAN with it. But in the end, it DID serve the purpose of blowing the masochism out of the water!

SO it takes an extreme to counteract an extreme  7th house Sun.Jup in Sag IS a theme OF CALIBRATING THE SELF, RECOVERING THE NATURAL BELIEFS VERSUS THE FORCED FED BELEIFS OF OTHERS.. AND TO CALIBRATE THE SOUL..VENUS NATURALLY RULES THE 7TH (CALIBRATION) AND IS IN THE 8TH IN CAP..CALIBRATE THE SOUL..NEW STRUCTURES/COMMITMENTS THAT REFLECT THE NATURAL YOU, A SOUL WHO NATURALLY GIVES AND WANTS ONLY TO HELP OTHERS AND SERVE ( SN 6th in Scorpio, humble service, soul worker...ruler Pluto in Leo in the 4th, trining Sun/Jupiter in the 7th - helping others get back to the natural Goddess - leading others back to the truth ) ..THAT IS YOU..

Well, you nailed the dynamics, and I like your use of the word “calibrate.” It’s very fitting here. 

And thank you again for your kind words here, and your time and effort in offering this wonderful analysis.

God bless, k, love, adina


love, kristin




Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Kristin on Jun 11, 2009, 10:13 AM
HI everyone,

Just a post here to let you know that Adina was interviewed on Guiding Stars, yesterday, Wed June 10. She shared about her personal experience in this transitioning. Her interview will be in the archives within the next day or so and can be accessed from this link.
http://www.healthylife.net/RadioShow/archiveGS.htm

Peace,
Kristin

P.S. Thanks for the feedback Adina on the above. I sure love your Sag spirit. Even at a time like this it still shines SO BRIGHT!


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on Jun 15, 2009, 04:01 PM
Hi Adina and all,

just wanted to share how joyful it was to listen to you on Kristin's radio show!
Thank you for sharing and thank you for the beautifully put messages...indeed our transiton is the (re) birth on the astral plan...and it is very true how our current cultures dismiss this transition and how the mostly christian derived limited 'one life' view diminishes death into something almost 'nonexistent' and undesirable...so that people are left many times alone and abandonded just because they are transiting the 'other door'.....
I know (and I am glad) that it isn't the case for you and I am sure your words and sharing can help and inspire many who either themselves around the transition or someone close to them....

So thank you for all that......as Kristin said: your spirit indeed shines through!

Love and blessings,

Lia


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: adina on Jun 15, 2009, 05:07 PM
Thank you BOTH for your very kind words! Kristin, you made it very easy because you're such a good interviewer!

I personally find it very funny that many "christians" avoid end-of-life issues like the plague, as well as have more difficult letting go. Since they believe in a "hereafter", a "heaven" that is SO much better than life here on earth, I can't for the LIFE of me understand trying to hang on to THIS one so tightly, taking every measure possible to prolong life, no matter what the quality may be.

Anyway, thank you again for your lovely comments. I'm glad you found it useful. And I really hope that everyone can have this kind of gift with their transition; i.e., TIME to wind down, to savor, to reflect, and yes, to grow and expand one's consciousness. I'm not saying I don't have my days, but overall this is the most peaceful I've felt my entire lifetime.

For those interested, I also have a blog about this part of my journey. The entries can be sporadic based on how I feel, but I'm hoping for enough time to share more of the story so others can benefit. It's at www.bluelotusletters.com.  And you can sign up to be notified when I enter a new post.

God bless,
Adina


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Deva on Jun 16, 2009, 08:53 AM
Hi Adina, I wanted to say that your feedback has been really helpful for me! Thanks for putting the time into those responses.
Deva


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: Lia on Jun 21, 2009, 04:38 PM
Hi Adina,

YES I second Deva on this; thanks for the responses this really validates the evolutionary picture that is unfolding via your chart and via sharing your actual reality relative to what we see in the chart is really helpful in validating EA!

It is marvelous to see the many layers of the correlations in this perspective....Thanks very much for your time and energy for the detailed responses.

I personally would like to ask how you see the reasons for the illness itself?

To me it seems that mercury on s.node which is obviously the ruler of gem. uranus is a hit back from the past (conj. s.node) so it is par of what needs to be resolved/culminated ---and want to say that how I see that culmination is happening (form what you shared) is a really heart warming culmination: finding peace and meaning (taurus/2nd house)  in the process of winding the incarnation down (scorpio, where the ruler of uranus is in) in joyful (leo pluto ruling mercury) and fundamentally liberating ways (uranus itself which rules the 10th and ppp in it) is really MARVELOUS....

I maybe wrong but to me it feels like maybe this very experience has been intended to bring the final culmination to all the issues relative to the s.node....i.e. scorpio of course has a lot to do with death itself also death experiences and what the soul decides during those death experiences (which than affects the evolutionary process for the next life by way of the decisions made at that life closure point)
To experience this totally differently and thus shed all the past thought patterns symbolised by mercury on s.node....

Taurus n.node in the 12th: in the deeper sense of reality (which is related to uranus/aquarius for that symbol indeed contains the blueprint of saturn i.e. the manifested creation is but the consequence of the astral world blueprint) so that deeper sense of reality simply points out the eternity of life (12th house taurus) which of course isn't the physical form but the continuity of existence as a soul...so that becoming ever more conscious DURING the life of the body so to speak...providing the peace and the much sought joy and love relative to the soul (4th pluto and the other planets there as the skipped steps) and the realisation wherein that the TRUTH of the soul and the real KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING it gains (sun rules the leo planets and that is conj. to jup) CAN NEVER DIE...

So it's like taking the last step of life i.e. getting closer to the death process as the FULL recovery (actually in a paradoxial way=uranus!) from all the fears, judgments and entrapment issues that the s.node in the 6th in scorpio symbolised (of course along with the old masochism pattern)...like for so long it was the 'understanding' (mercury) of the different death experiences as some sort of 'punishment' during the upsisde down patriarchal era....and now embracing a totally different reality into that (saturn) which gives a different 'meaning' with a totally different value-association (taurus n.node ruled by venus in capr. in 8th- reality of the soul (capr. in 8th) with a recovered value association of taurus in the 12th)
It just seems marvelously meaningful to me, as your effort is to have as conscious as possible death experience....Isn't that the totally new way of applying pluto, saturn,moon with the will and intention of mars from the 4th to taurus in.node n the 12th instead of the 6th s.node - as before?
 
...I.e. recovering from all the previous perception of 'life and death' issues with a liberating new way (which is of course 'new' relative to only how it has been conditioned within patriarchy) and embracing a far wider far mor objective reality...the reality of aq. is also the reality of the astral world....

Is that explanation right according to your own understanding/inner reality?

If not would you mind to share how do you see it experience it?

Much thanks for opening up your soul in these most profound ways...

Love and blessings,
Lia
 



Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 22, 2009, 11:59 AM
hey adina, i just wanted to let you know that im taking my own time with this thread. but im still here and appreciate very much your responses.


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback: Adina
Post by: adina on Jun 24, 2009, 12:29 PM
Ari, thanks for checking in. I DO appreciate your efforts! :)  Jump in as you feel led to.

Lia, I FINALLY got to your analysis and questions and included the whole thing here, with my responses in an offset color.  Thank YOU for your time and effort in doing this work to help others learn the method.


Hi Adina,

YES I second Deva on this; thanks for the responses this really validates the evolutionary picture that is unfolding via your chart and via sharing your actual reality relative to what we see in the chart is really helpful in validating EA!

It is marvelous to see the many layers of the correlations in this perspective....Thanks very much for your time and energy for the detailed responses.

I personally would like to ask how you see the reasons for the illness itself?

To me it seems that mercury on s.node which is obviously the ruler of gem. uranus is a hit back from the past (conj. s.node) so it is par of what needs to be resolved/culminated ---and want to say that how I see that culmination is happening (form what you shared) is a really heart warming culmination: finding peace and meaning (taurus/2nd house)  in the process of winding the incarnation down (scorpio, where the ruler of uranus is in) in joyful (leo pluto ruling mercury) and fundamentally liberating ways (uranus itself which rules the 10th and ppp in it) is really MARVELOUS....

I maybe wrong but to me it feels like maybe this very experience has been intended to bring the final culmination to all the issues relative to the s.node....i.e. scorpio of course has a lot to do with death itself also death experiences and what the soul decides during those death experiences (which than affects the evolutionary process for the next life by way of the decisions made at that life closure point)
To experience this totally differently and thus shed all the past thought patterns symbolised by mercury on s.node....

Taurus n.node in the 12th: in the deeper sense of reality (which is related to uranus/aquarius for that symbol indeed contains the blueprint of saturn i.e. the manifested creation is but the consequence of the astral world blueprint) so that deeper sense of reality simply points out the eternity of life (12th house taurus) which of course isn't the physical form but the continuity of existence as a soul...so that becoming ever more conscious DURING the life of the body so to speak...providing the peace and the much sought joy and love relative to the soul (4th pluto and the other planets there as the skipped steps) and the realisation wherein that the TRUTH of the soul and the real KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING it gains (sun rules the leo planets and that is conj. to jup) CAN NEVER DIE...

 
Yes, this is true; i.e., this knowledge, this understanding has moved from in intellectual understanding to an emotional understanding…. It’s being assimilated, so to speak (jup/sag)

So it's like taking the last step of life i.e. getting closer to the death process as the FULL recovery (actually in a paradoxial way=uranus!) from all the fears, judgments and entrapment issues that the s.node in the 6th in scorpio symbolised (of course along with the old masochism pattern)...like for so long it was the 'understanding' (mercury) of the different death experiences as some sort of 'punishment' during the upsisde down patriarchal era....and now embracing a totally different reality into that (saturn) which gives a different 'meaning' with a totally different value-association (taurus n.node ruled by venus in capr. in 8th- reality of the soul (capr. in 8th) with a recovered value association of taurus in the 12th)
It just seems marvelously meaningful to me, as your effort is to have as conscious as possible death experience....Isn't that the totally new way of applying pluto, saturn,moon with the will and intention of mars from the 4th to taurus in.node n the 12th instead of the 6th s.node - as before?
 
...I.e. recovering from all the previous perception of 'life and death' issues with a liberating new way (which is of course 'new' relative to only how it has been conditioned within patriarchy) and embracing a far wider far mor objective reality...the reality of aq. is also the reality of the astral world....

Is that explanation right according to your own understanding/inner reality?  

Yes, in essence, that is it. And I'll expand on it from my own experience of it.

As you pointed out, Lia, the disease and the process I'm in are multi-layered. And it's a continuing unfoldment for me even now. The "first cause" of the emphysema is, of course, the underlying masochism--the continuing need to feel "punished" for both acquired AND learned guilt. Most masochists, I think, have a combination of both, by virtue of the fact that we're human and make mistakes. So, first of all this continuing need for "punishment," that began several lifetimes ago, and IS (THANK GOD) now culminating!  

In addition to this, and just as important is the creation of the disease to teach me to never, never, never, opt out of the body/life experiences before my appointed time; i.e, commit suicide (Venus in Cap in the 8th being the lead point for the suicide) as a way of escaping any kind of feelings. The original feelings being deep guilt for betraying someone who had taken me into their confidence. This was done while I was being tortured, and while it's understandable to "cave" under those circumstances, it is still wrong, my soul KNEW it was wrong, and I couldn't live with the guilt. So again, the lesson is to in no way, under ANY circumstances to commit suicide again. Again, this is the culmination of the "paybacks" of the suicide. :)

Within that, (in no particular order), is the fact that I smoked to cover up / avoid (6th house) dealing with the extreme psychological/emotional/sexual abuse when I was a child. Although when I started smoking at 17 I had dissociated from the abuse and had no conscious memory of it, smoking KEPT those memories unconscious until I could deal with them, which happened at about the age of 41 or 42. So, even though I finally DID deal with those issues, part of the lesson that this disease has brought to light is to NOT dissociate - to not AVOID or DENY - but to BE present and deal with events AS THEY HAPPEN, obviously a much 'healthier' - albeit difficult - way to do it.

There are several gifts within this whole process... living with an incurable disease with a rather drawn out process of dying - and that is that in many prior lives my current life children (and others) and I have been separated, both suddenly and violently, and the gift now is that we have time together to put closure on this lifetime together.  

Then within living out the rest of my life with this disease (difficult as it is) is also another great gift - similar to that of Gyanamata, a direct disciple of Yogananda, who lived in incredible pain for the last 20 years of her life. And that lesson is to STAY focused on God - dependent on God - in love WITH God - NO MATTER WHAT! I.e., it is also a TEST from God. (Yes, God DOES test us). In essence, it's part of natural law, in that "guano" happens. It's what we DO with what happens that matters. And I have to add that it may seem like a no brainer to remain focused on God, etc. no matter what, but when you can't breathe, it can become a real challenge. My spiritual teacher, Tayo, has given me ways to help, and the grace of God and Guru are forever filling in my gaps and THEN some!

I hope this answers your questions. Feel free to ask more as I sure could have forgotten something! And already I've had to come back and add a couple of things, so... !  CRS is also part of this disease!  LOL

Something everyone might find interesting in the larger picture when counseling clients is that only 15% to 20% of the people who smoke ever even GET COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease - which includes chronic bronchitis and/or emphysema). Obviously, with that small of a percentage ending up with this disease from smoking, there are VERY individual underlying causes. Of course, smoking can cause a host of other problems as well.

Another way one can end up with emphysema is from an Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency. Alpha-1 is an amino acid produced in the liver, and its job is to protect the lungs from all sorts of outside invaders. People with this deficiency can GET Emphysema even if they never smoked!  YIKES! I was tested years ago, and my Alpha-1 level was fine.



If not would you mind to share how do you see it experience it?

Much thanks for opening up your soul in these most profound ways...

I am just happy that I can still help - still serve - as much as possible.

Love and Blessings to you all!


Love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback: Adina
Post by: Lia on Jun 24, 2009, 03:38 PM
THANK YOU ADINA!
This really is so beautiful....and it does help HEAPS to understand the deep layers behind teh symbols....#

Thank you for sharing and for the ENERGY it cost you....

God/ess bless your Soul all along the way!!!
Much love,
Lia



Title: Re: Chart Practice with Client Feedback: Adina
Post by: ari moshe on Jul 15, 2009, 02:31 PM
Quote
Yes, and that include lifetimes of being a nun/monk, etc. But then take it beyond just the sexuality. There are many aspects/dimensions to each and every soul, as well as reflected in each planet, aspect, etc., so the masochism comes from a variety of experiences/sources and colors every aspect of the life, or CAN.

that's a great perspective.

Quote
Good, Ari. One manifestation of this was at least one lifetime during the Inquisition in which this soul was tortured for speaking in terms contrary to consensus beliefs and opinions. One particular lifetime this happened was in France (Leo). Now, what do you suppose THAT could do to a soul? What effect would it have? And how would you identify it (planets/aspects/houses, etc) in the birth chart?

that would explain the mercury uranus and perhaps also the pluto jupiter relationship. we also have the questioning one's truth/deeper knowing (sag in the 7th). merucry in scorpio in the 6th= very cautious and perceptive mind, surely wont just blurt out anything, inonjunct uranus in gemini in the second= linked to an actual fear of survival and trauma in the past as it relates to speaking out.

france=leo
what is the basis for that particular interpretation? im seeing that a lot in ea- place based interpretations of the past. is it an empiracle thing, or slightly intuitive?
also what is the basis for france=leo, and astrological rulership for countries in general.

I trust your journey continues to inspire your soul and all who come close to you.