School of Evolutionary Astrology Message Board

Discussion => Evolutionary Astrology Q&A => Topic started by: ari moshe on Jun 22, 2009, 11:54 AM



Title: second stage spiritual
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 22, 2009, 11:54 AM
in the ea literatre i've only found examples of second stage spiritual souls ea considers to be sketchy.  :o
what are some examples of other second stage spiritual folk?

here's a hunch:
jwg
chogyam trungpa rinpoche
eckart tolle

if not, what stage do you think they are/were at?
thank you


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Stacie on Jun 22, 2009, 01:35 PM
Hi Ari,

The nature of the 2nd stage spiritual evolutionary condition is one of core egocentric purification relative to spiritual awareness which has been realized in the evolutionary journey.  The spiritual state itself is a neptunian condition...the 2nd stage has leonian emphasis within that.  Before the soul can evolve into the 3rd stage spiritual, the ego has to go through a necessary purging, where all the egocentrically identified impurity can be purified and culminated.  It can thus be a problematic stage.  That is why some of the examples we have of 2nd stage spiritual souls can have this 'sketchy' quality as you call it.   

JWG is in the 3rd stage spiritual condition.  As for the other two individuals you've listed, I'll leave that for someone else to comment on as I haven't done the observation to know.

Stacie


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Steve on Jun 22, 2009, 03:37 PM
Hi

To further clarify a bit, the nature of 2nd stage spiritual PRODUCES individuals who would be described as "a bit sketchy" AT BEST.

The words I recall to describe the stage are "feels they have a unique toehold on the truth that no one else has ever had before".  They HAVE in fact, by that point, had real spiritual experiences, and that is the basis by which others are attracted to these folks.  I've been closely around several in my life, and know others who've been around other 2nd stage spiritual folks.  (You've never heard of the ones I was around).

What you get is a mixture of truth and falseness.  There IS truth in their teachings, and it is mixed with a bunch of self-oriented stuff.  They are not fully living out their own teachings.  Underlying it all is a deep permeating sense of spiritual arrogance.  Sometimes you can't see this at all until you get really close to the person.  In one case I was involved with, the person has been identified as being close to 3rd stage spiritual but still in 2nd.  There was tremendous truth in much of what they taught.  That particular case, the person did not manifest the possible extremes of 2nd stage spiritual.  They were not in huge power grabs, in fact were revolted by all that.  Yet the issues manifested anyway, subtly, among those gathered around this individual.  I did not really grasp it until years later when I saw video of the person, years after they had passed on.  How there was a core underlying arrogance that permeated through the words they spoke, while on the outside they lived a most humble and not wanting to be idolized or put on a pedestal reality at all.  And yet, there was this underlying state, that had been there all along, that I had not before grasped.

You have to keep in mind this is a natural archetype.  As Stacie said, the spiritual state is a neptune phenomena.  The 1st stage is virgo-like within that, the 2nd is leo-like.  Thus there is an explosion of a spiritual ego.  The words from the pluto books are something like, the person at some point is destined to experience a major downfall, out of which that spiritual ego pops, and they then begin the entry to 3rd stage spiritual for real.  Its been said its possible for the 2nd stage spiritual to be navigated in ways that are less harmful to others than some of the well known extreme cases have turned into.

In terms of your list, eckart tolle to me exhibits none of the signs of this spiritual arrogance, thus is not 2nd stage spiritual.  I'd guess he's 1st stage spiritual.  I am aware he speaks in what people consider great wisdom.  Keep in mind Jeffrey identified Dane Rudhyar as 1st stage spiritual.   These stages take a lot longer to pass through than we like to think they do, as in most cases, many many lifetimes for even a small amount of advancement.  Yogananda said the typical person changes very little from lifetime to lifetime.  

By the way, to give evolutionary perspective, typically 2nd stage people are surrounded by what you would call followers or believers.  As the 2nd stage person goes through their downfalls, these people also go through a downfall of sorts - the disillusioning of their hopes dreams beliefs, as the actual reality of the person they believed in and committed parts of their lives to becomes apparent.  In other words, they are thrown back on themselves.  I've seen many go into a complete victim state when this occurs "I was blameless, I was taken advantage of, I was abused, I did nothing, all I did was give my all to the effort" etc etc.  The gist of it is, it is part of the "believers" evolutionary journey TO have these experiences with the 2nd stage person- often the necessary lesson is to stop looking outside of self for one's answers, to stop putting anyone on a pedestal and holding them up as better.  And it is just as difficult for many of the believers to own that lesson, to look at their "mistakes", as it is for the 2nd stage spiritual person to own their own lessons.  They need each other, to learn, to grow.  So it once again comes back to all concerned taking responsibility for the reality they have created and not blaming or being a victim.  I will also say there are plenty of examples of true abuse occurring in such situations, from sexual predators, pedophiles, con artists, etc. and the wounds some experience from those types of realities are very deep and difficult.  I'm not in any way excusing any of that by saying it was your destiny or karma or whatever.  Only saying there are always inner reasons an experience is necessary in someone's life, as difficult as it may be.  


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Linda on Jun 22, 2009, 04:15 PM
Steve and Ari:

This is a very interesting topic.

Your quote Steve:  Its been said its possible for the 2nd stage spiritual to be navigated in ways that are less harmful to others than some of the well known extreme cases have turned into.

Could you please provide examples of extreme cases?  To me, Rajneesh who exhibited signs of spiritual arrogance was an extreme case.  And there were some pretty heavy things happening toward the end.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: adina on Jun 22, 2009, 04:38 PM
Excellent explanations, Stacie and Steve. But just as a gentle reminder regarding these being "natural archetypes," Wolf also taught that, yes they were natural, BUT.... ONLY from the standpoint that we all go thru stages of growth - expansion of consciousness, not in how they manifest. The way the stages are currently defined --how they manifest--is due to our still living in a patriarchal reality. I.e., these particular explanations, only play out in a patriarchal setting; they would not manifest the same way when people are living by Natural Law. The stages themSELVES are natural, but how they are played out looks entirely different in a world of Natural Law, or one that is defined by giving, sharing and inclusion, rather than self-interest and exclusion.

Namaste

You have to keep in mind this is a natural archetype.  


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Steve on Jun 22, 2009, 04:59 PM
Hi Linda

Quote
Could you please provide examples of extreme cases?  To me, Rajneesh who exhibited signs of spiritual arrogance was an extreme case.

Yes, Rajneesh has always been on the list of examples of 2nd stage spiritual.  Clair Prophet and Ramtha have been mentioned, as has David Koresh (Waco).  I asked once about Elijah Muhammed, the founder of the Nation of Islam (Black Muslims), who appeared as a full blown vision when Malcolm X was in prison, and he was identified as 2nd stage spiritual.

The Pluto course transcript says, on how to recognize such people "there is a fundamental discrepancy between how they are conducting their personal life and the nature of their teachings".  (That of course applies to a whole range of modern day religious people and Senators, who are not 2nd stage spiritual.)  I'd say the point is, at times these people are indeed able to tap a place of deep spiritual truth/wisdom that few among us can experience, but its inconsistently applied.  There are always exceptions to the rules, and because of their pumped up self-declared state of evolution, they are exempt from the normal rules.  

The 2nd stage spiritual section of Pluto Vol 2 says  "truly God-realized Souls only point the way home, not to themselves".  When you combine the Leonian tendency in 2nd stage spiritual to feel one's own special brilliance with that statement, it makes it easier to identify those in 2nd stage spiritual.  They also feel an inner destiny/need to teach, so there are plenty of them around.  And because so many people feel desperate and lost, there is no shortage of students.

p.s.  I agree with what Adina wrote.  That is probably what was meant by it being possible to navigate the stage without harming so many people.  The problem is we live in a time of near-total patriarchy, so there aren't many around exhibiting the undistorted state of 2nd stage spiritual.  And people who do live from natural principles, regardless of evolutionary stage, tend to be very wounded from all they have been through in retaining their inner integrity.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jun 22, 2009, 05:43 PM
Where would you place Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon church, whose teachings (and revelations) have led millions to embrace family togetherness, geneology and adherence to the laws of the land with diligence and honor?


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Linda on Jun 22, 2009, 08:26 PM
Steve,

I also remember that Da Free John was intellectually brilliant and a very powerful spiritual teacher. 


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: adina on Jun 22, 2009, 08:42 PM
Linda, this is another one, though, whom Wolf said was 2nd stage spiritual. He's also known as Adidam. As Steve pointed out, and as wolf taught in the original Pluto school, 2nd stage spiritual souls actually DO have some real God realization, and that's maybe why it can get confusing. Generally speaking, there are seven levels of Samadhi realization, and typically, one has made it through the first four by the end of 2nd stage spiritual.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Linda on Jun 22, 2009, 09:28 PM
Thank you Adina!   :D

I do not doubt that they have attained some levels of Samadhi, for they do speak the truth. 

Is it not the Universal Spirit working through these 2nd stage spiritual teachers?  They are not as yet fully realized or purified.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: adina on Jun 22, 2009, 09:40 PM
Yep, that's it exactly, Linda!   ;)


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 22, 2009, 10:09 PM
ah cool- adina do you have a recourse for teachings on the seven levels of samhadi?


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lesley on Jun 22, 2009, 10:25 PM
Hi Adina,

First of all, I want to say thank you for that beautiful interview you had with Kristin Fontana on Healthylife.net recently. I hope your good days far outnumber the bad.

I'd like to echo Ari's request for more information about the 7 levels of Samadhi. Is it possible for you to briefly list or give a short description of them? Do these 7 levels correlate in any way with the chakra system? (So interested to read more!)

On the subject at hand, I have known someone at the cusp of 1st stage Spiritual and 2nd stage Spiritual...she had incredible healing powers, had been able to heal others through prayer since age 5. She spoke of God all the time, BUT insisted that true healing came only through HER spiritual path/paradigm: she had THE one and only way to God, as far as she was concerned. She was quite aware of her talent and would keep her clients waiting for literally hours past their appointments (!), as if to create some kind of mystique around herself and/or bring the client's focus and attention back to her. When I told her about EA, she literally recoiled! "Stop! Just hearing about it makes me SICK!" she exclaimed to me. It is that total refusal to acknowledge and accept other perfectly valid paths to God (diversity itself is a Natural Law!) that is a hallmark of this evolutionary condition. That, and pointing to self as the path back to God, instead of pointing to God'dess and encouraging each individual to embrace his/her own natural way to spiritualize. It was quite a harrowing experience, but a very educational one at that.

Love and blessings to all,
Lesley


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 23, 2009, 12:55 AM

Hi Everyone,

I'd like to add a little to the above notes of Stacie, Adina and Steve which are correct in essence and very well describe the issue: the second stage spiritual although indeed leo-like, it is actually jupiter that manifest through this way...a personal identification with the 'truth'....as all souls have different unique nature it plays out differently BUT as to differentiate between the so called most  'severe' cases and some other, the truth is that this stage is also not one or two life times...it's far longer than that....

For example I personally totally agree that Eckart Tolle is typical 2nd stage spiritual BUT the soul hasn't reached yet the peak of the jupiterian exaggeration and personal identification with the 'ultimate truths'...but point IT WILL later on. The self confidence grows as the more intuitive perception merges with the truth and more and more people will listen to the soul.

On the other hand, Louise L. Hay is typically recovered from the 2nd spiritual in past lives and for long has been silent (6th house capr. s.node) before the soul reached the 3rd spiritual and assumed severe masochism/atonement before the soul allowed itself to teach people again in this life....only towards the second part of her life....she typically accepts all paths and points the way to the Source from within....

In my view it is NOT possible to skip the peak, simply because it comes out of the soul's desire to merge with the Source...the mistake is that (pluto, scorpio) the soul at first trying to 'take in' so to speak that what it feels the source is...and it indeed takes in so much and merges with the spiritual powers of the Source to the highest possible way RELATIVE TO TEH SOUL itself...but that's the problem the source is far more than any individual soul.......yet, this is simply the nature of how the soul is created....it HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS FINAL DISILLUSIONMENT that even it's soul is not 'it' .....of course it can't be for that's far less than the ultimate source that created the soul......but that leads to the jupiter stage, the exaggeration of the importance of the created soul and jupiter is identified at this stage within the piscean symbolism (the so called truths, becaue there is indeed truth in that...but not the whole lot..and so the personal identification with the ‘truths‘ ......it's specifically jupiter like....as the perception of the truths gets stronger and stronger and the virgo-like first spiritual grows into the jupiter like identification.....the soul needs to realise the fact that it is but A subjective consciousness even on the soul level.....the soul becomes aware of it’s own soul during the 1st stage spiritual...the second stage is about using the soul’s power not the immediate ego power, and YET because that will be used relative to the subjective identification of it's own ego's source as the specific soul (instead of the Source, that's the mistake) it will be still ‘egocentric’ in a different way....for sure the soul is closer to to the Source than the ego itself but it isn’t the Source....that’s the issue....missing one’s own soul and it’s realised spiritual powers with the Source....

The 2nd stage can not be completed unless it reaches it's jupiterian peak....so at the end it will be a blow and because the soul BELIEVES (jupiter) IN IT'S OWN MERGING WITH THE TRUTHS it simply can't help but will cause disillusionment to others....but it comes in stages, and there are many life times BEFORE and AFTER the peak within the 2nd stage..

Rajneesh for example is the peak time for the soul, and life times need to come to recover and lessen the tendency...it doesn’t come at once....for the soul at first isn’t fully aware what’s the problem it realises in stages....and just as every other stage it isn't wrong or right, it is both....it is necessary and natural.....the soul in the 2nd spiritual indeed teaches a lot of useful things but toward the peak it goes too far about it’s own soul level self-importance....nothing is black and white it just goes too far into that direction in order to realise the final obstacle ....it can't realise it unless this happens...it is simply impossible to realise once's soul level subjectivty unless the soul faces it directly....so it is a gift from the source so that the soul can indeed liberate (uranus) at the end once it realised the final problem.....it's own soul level subjectivity .....

It is all about the merging process, the pluto, scorpio process which needs to totally metamorphose BEFORE the real change can happen...i.e. instead of trying to take in the Source within one’s soul, (everything else till that point happens and need to happen this way that's the trick) yet at the end it needs to learn to do the opposite....to allow the Source to take the soul in and to allow it from it's own will....to ask for it instead of resisting it.....it's a paradox as the whole creation is based on the paradox itself the soul needs to go BACKWARD on that paradoxical gate .......till then all merging happens one way, at last the merging has to happen BACKWARD....this is what the soul needs to realise before it can fully enter the 3rd stage .....

After the peak of the 2nd spiritual the soul will be always shocked via a huge blow (uranus) via the objective reality (which really is the very force governed by the Source to embrace the objective reality that the soul missed out on even in the spiritual stage there is aspects of reality especially relative to the subjectivity of the soul that are illusionary, therefore there is an objective reality which will and have to shock the soul at one point) so that objective reality is not easy to take in and it takes time to go through that stage after the peak ......just as it takes time to reach the peak....like the Mormon leader typically reached the peak in that very life time when it became the known person .....There are aspects of REALLY valuable spiritual truths but that then leads to the personal identification with the truth....

The final realisation of the source is within pisces: the change from the piscean jupiter to the underlying neptune symbolised essence.....so not the truths themselves but what BEHIND the truths is the aim........what's behind jupiter in pisces is neptune....what‘s behind creation is the source and not creation and it‘s laws themselves....those are just the reflection...and reflection always has an element of illusion of course....the piscean jupiter is very close to the essence but not quiet ‘it‘.....

Like Wolf himself said he is at the beginning of the 3rd stage spiritual....and I think that's very true....symbolised by his 12th jupiter: that's what culminating and that's why it is square to natal pluto: the soul's desire to know the truth is stronger than the past identification 'with' the truth....and that's why the repetition in so many ways is present in the chart, like saturn is balsamic to pluto in the 9th, pluto is retro, so is venus that is square to pluto...along with jupiter and mercury.....sun is on s.node the whole life time is a repetition and of course the skipped steps with the moon which is the ruler of the 9th....the personal security patterns in the past have been rooted with the identification of the ‘truths‘ and the skipped steps of course involve uranus: the larger objective reality hits in as trauma on the n.node....and yet, that‘s the gift of the soul, although mars is opposite to it from the 2nd sag conj. s.node: that's the past resistance, there has been a relatively limited view of the truths (2nd house) but the soul is recovering and indeed the teachings in this life contain the essence of the truth in a way that truly serve people....so that the repetiton of the past brought the resolution and the soul has entered the 3rd spiritual and NOW able to teach in a different way....n.node is gemini in 7th: truly serving others....the skipped step is about the struggle how it happened in the 2nd stage.....the confusion etc. ...teachings happened in the past but it was different...of course contained truths, but after the peak the soul have chosen to shock itself and realise the final obstacle....the desire to merge with god is the same but the METHOD of how the soul does it changes after the last blow.....
That's why the soul had to face every of it's subjective 'hatred' like astrology itself, and become the very vehicle of that what has been resisted in the past....embracing the diversity (uranus in gemini on n.node) and recovering not only the soul's own skipped steps but understanding and sharing that understanding with others how the soul as a soul works and why etc. via EA....

I think the 2nd stage spiritual needs to be acknowledged as the necessariy past for this teaching to come along for example, and every other teachings that truly help humanity to evolve and find the Source...none of the true teachers can EVER get there unless they went through the 2nd stage and learned the final lesson....
I just feel it is important to understand and embrace so that even though during the PEAK time others can be repelled, but that doesn't mean the soul is 'wrong' and 'worst' than some others....it just as necessary as the everything else within creation.....the fruits of the 2nd is the 3rd.....the fruits of the consensus is the individuated, and so on....one step after another there is no way to skip any steps.....


Well at least that’s how I see it :-)

Hope I don't shock anyone with my aquarian views:-))

Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Steve on Jun 23, 2009, 03:25 AM
Hi Chuck

Where would you place Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon church, whose teachings (and revelations) have led millions to embrace family togetherness, geneology and adherence to the laws of the land with diligence and honor?

I don't know enough about Smith's life and story to attempt determining his evolutionary stage through observation and correlation.  The other method is to look directly into his Soul, which process "is beyond my pay grade".

The paradigm of EA is based on the reality of Natural Law.  In that reality, the genders of male and female are simply two equal expressions of divinity - equal in every possible way - one and the same, in fact, just different expressions of the same One.  The teachings of Smith and the Mormon Church have not been aligned with that reality.  In our time, and for a long time now, neither are the teachings of any other major religion, in barely any culture or country on Earth.  

Given the cultural context of the times in which someone appears, it is possible for even a relatively evolved Soul to bring forth teachings that contain some patriarchal distortions - that in itself doesn't mean they are not evolved.  But distortions are distortions even if they come from someone relatively evolved, whether or not we like facing that.  In order to heal this great mess of dysfunction on Earth, distortions need to be NAMED as distortions, not glossed over, excused, or justified.

Distortions of natural law have caused great harm as the result of beliefs of all major religions, including the Mormon.  I do NOT mean by that statement that, as a result of containing distortions, there is no value at all in anything the Mormon church has ever taught or done.  That is not true.  However, to resolve violations of natural law, the dark side, the shadow side, of all people and all things must be faced.  Institutions, including the Mormon church, have a pretty poor track record of facing their shadow.  (As do people in general.)

Belief in patriarchal  man-made standards of good and bad, right and wrong, are the root cause of the shadow in the first place.  We disown parts of ourselves, split off from, feel guilt about, parts of self we have been taught are bad/wrong, and then project onto others these qualities that are actually within ourselves, since we ourselves can't own them. (Thus we have a family-values Senator who calls people out for sexual indiscretions having an affair with the wife of a good friend).  Institutions engage in this just as much as individuals do.  

These have consequences that affect the lives of others.  The church founded on Smith's teachings, and it did start with him, has a long history of favoring white males.  I realize it is never EXPRESSED in that way - to do so would be to face the shadow, which does not happen.  If you look into the history of the church - the role of women, the exclusion of people of color, it is prevalent.  The church, just last year, was the principle financier of the anti-gay marriage proposition in California, spending millions of dollars on this.

These distortions in the Mormon religion began with the institution of polygamy, and the belief that this is God's law/intent.  And this started with Joseph Smith.  Why would a natural God raise up one expression of itself and cast down another expression of itself?  These core, baseline distortions, over time multiply, as one distortion requires the creation of further distortions to justify the initial distortions.  As times goes on the number of distortions expands and expands - all created in the minds of humans, to control others, for the sake of personal power and authority, presented as being God's intent.  A god that itself is always conceptualized as a white male...

In order to get the political power they wanted, i.e. statehood, the Church elders renounced polygamy. Now, Smith taught that polygamy was God's intent.  How can you have a religion based on following God's intent and then swear off a major tenet of what God's intent is supposed to be just because it becomes politically expedient to do so?  Did God change His (hah!) mind?  If polygamy being God's intent had ever been true in the first place, how can you just change your mind about it?  Your religion is supposed to be God's will and intent.  So was it, or wasn't it?  Was Smith wrong about God's intent?  Were the later church elders wrong?  

Recognizing this hypocrisy within its own beliefs, a shadow side of the church came into creation - splinter groups who refused to disavow polygamy.  This then put the mainstream church in the position of having to disown these splinter groups, saying they are not a part of that church.  Yet they began WITHIN that church, and they would not exist at all if the original church teachings did not include polygamy.   This is a fabulous example of what I just said, about creating new distortions to justify or rationalize earlier distortions.

My point is, to me polygamy was never God's intent in the first place.  Nor was monogamy.   One size NEVER fits all in Natural Law.  Diversity is the fundamental law in Creation - any philosophy based on natural law acknowledges Diversity as its bottom line, #1 principle.

The way to know what is right for an individual is they just know within themselves what is right for them. They don't need an external church or belief system or teachers to tell them what is right, because each Soul can simply know within itself what is right for it.  And what is right can change over the course of a life.

What is "right" is based on the past and intended evolutionary future of that Soul.  And it is unique for each Soul.  For some polygamy could be "right", for some one women with multiple husbands, for some "standard" monogamy, for some marriage to a person of the same sex, for some no partner or family at all.   In natural law there are not judgments made on the forms through which diversity expresses itself.  The highest weight is placed on following what the person just knows within self is right for them, regardless of how unusual it may appear in comparison to the choices made by the majority.

I want to ask you, Chuck, why did you phrase your original question as you did?  Go back and look at it - your question is pretty much "leading the witness".  It clearly contains your views, and makes me think that consciously or otherwise you want an answer that is aligned with your beliefs.  Otherwise why would you word your question as you did?  You may or may not, on this board, get the answer you are expecting.  I hope you are prepared for that.
Steve


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 23, 2009, 03:43 AM
I just wanted to say, Steve, THAT WAS SO VERY WELL SAID!

Love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lesley on Jun 23, 2009, 10:17 AM
I agree with Steve: I think Eckhart Tolle is 1st stage Spiritual. I don't see him promoting himSELF as "the answer" or "the way." I think he'd be much more prolific (more books coming out all the time, as if to convince everyone of his authority and promote his name/keep it in the media) if he were a 2nd stage Spiritual Soul.

With regard to Joseph Smith, I see someone like Warren Jeffs (a Sagittarius, interestingly enough, and the FLDS 'prophet' who was arrested for charges related to alleged arrangement of extralegal marriages between his adult male followers and underage girls) as a 3rd stage Consensus Soul. Man-made religion is for the consensus, in Wolf's words. So, to me, Joseph Smith  using man-made religion, man-made laws regarding "right" and "wrong" behavior, etc., to motivate/manipulate people (depending upon your view) is a 3rd stage Consensus thing. His 'revelations' were for the Consensus, for those on a religious path -- not for those on a spiritual path to the Natural God (a very big difference!).

Of course, these are just my views. I think it's great to have a forum like this, where everyone can respectfully share views and opinions.

Love and blessings to all,
Lesley


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: adina on Jun 23, 2009, 11:54 AM
Ari and Lesley,

Just wanted to let you know that I WILL get to what little I know about the stages of samadhi. My energy level just isn't what it used to be and varies wildly from day to day and sometimes even hour to hour. Also, due to low oxygen levels, it just takes more effort to concentrate than it used to!  LOL   Just didn't want to leave you hanging.  :)


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lesley on Jun 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
Be well, Adina...we love you.  :)


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jun 23, 2009, 04:07 PM
Hi Steve!

Thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful answer.  :)

It did not shock or dismay me at all.  If you were to go the thread about Pluto's polarity points, started by Linda, you will find my story.  It is rather long, so to briefly recap...I had been conditioned early by Catholicism and later by Mormonism, married a Mormon girl at age 21.  For 17 years we were relatively happy and stable.  Then, on a lark I went to an astrologer.  Intrigued beyond what I'd have imagined, I sought more information.  Jeff Green did my second reading at Astrology Et Al...before his first book.  He wondered about my Pluto conjunct N Node in 9th...All these years later, Linda graciously helped me approach the Polarity point issue again, and wow, here is Jeff again, and his daughter, and all you wonderfully helpful loving people at this spiritual treasure chest.!  Such a joy!

To shorten the story,  I was fascinated.  The truth of these things touched my Soul and I ceaselessly studied everything metaphysical I could get my hands on.  I was drawn into, driven to go deeper... and it finally was a major element in ending the marriage.  During the next 15 years, As T-Pluto entered my 12th, squared Sun, conjuncted Scorpio Moon (an exact square to N-Pluto/N Node), then crossed Asc an amazing transformation occurred within.

I understand and agree with everything you said, Steve.  I worded the question as I did because my family is Mormon and I want to show respect for the fine and honorable people that  Mormons are because  there are many misunderstandings out there, so I guess I'm a little protective of them.  At the same time I was interested in the forum’s views of Joseph Smith, the man.   

This topic is hugely helpful for us new-comers to EA.  As was mentioned above, these stages (second) MUST be gone thru, so there need be those to lead.  No wrongs, no rights, just eternal progress (by the way, a major tenet of Mormonism is ‘ Eternal progression’)…the slowly awakening and expanding Soul as it returns to Source….so it’s quite possible That Joseph Smith was a necessity in the scheme of things?  That’s kind of what I was wondering.

So, if it seemed a ‘leading question’, I apologize.  As a result of your response I do see things more clearly now. 

Thanks again,
chuck




Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: PamS on Jun 23, 2009, 06:27 PM
Hi Chuck,

just wanted to say how wonderfully honest and articulate you were....

Thanks for your honesty and curosity!!!!!!


blessings,

pam


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Steve on Jun 23, 2009, 07:05 PM
hi Chuck

Thank you for your heartfelt and thoughtful response.  All I can say is this path of Soul unfolding (not merely EA, but the Soul itself - EA is just a tool given us to assist in that process - not the cause, but like a roadmap) is long, slow, at times difficult, progressive, and in the end, the only real thing there is in all of this life.

"Earth " is not an easy reality to navigate, in anyone's book.  As some have stated here before, the elements of Goddess's intent, Natural Law, are sharing, cooperation, and inclusion.  And above all else, each lending a helping hand, when requested, to those they encounter who are sincerely trying to walk that path.  That is the real purpose behind EA, and the reason for this message board existing.  Obviously that is not the predominant paradigm operating on Earth at this point in time/space.

It is  clear to me, from what you wrote, that getting from where you were to where you are was no small amount of changes.  And I know the resistance, judgment, and misunderstanding that are an inevitable part of someone making that scale of changes.  Of course, on one level, it is fated and inevitable, but few people know that when they are in the thick of those changes, and it takes a lot of courage to be willing to move in the intended new directions.  The questioning of "am I crazy?", "is this right?", "am I making terrible decisions that I will regret?", and all the rest of it.  And the growing realization that next to no one you know seems to be moving their own lives in any similar direction, they in fact seem quite content staying as they are.

EA, and this place, are really for people who are facing those issues in their own lives, grappling with making those changes, or, having already made them previously, wondering now "what do I do next?", "where am I going now?", etc.

This place is as a community of like-minded Souls, themselves busy engaging in individuating, and spiritually advancing.  As a percentage of the population, the numbers are small, but there are many many people on such paths.  And its often difficult to find others taking it as seriously as one is in their life.  So here is a place such people can connect, find support, comfort, and learn some things in the process.  And Souls who, like Stephen, know within themselves that their Soul's deepest desires are to help others with the same - to learn about the lessons they need to learn to prepare themselves so the help they offer is genuine, from their own life experiences of walking the path and going through the changes, not just tossing platitudes, slogans, and book advice at others.

Adina and I had a conversation earlier, and she is going to start a new post talking about her observations on evolutionary stages, how to spot them in people, and the types of questions and mistakes people new to this paradigm tend to make while learning about stages.  Please all feel free to join in and ask questions, offer insights, etc. 

Also, especially for those newer to EA, feel free at any time to start a post asking a question, like this one about 2nd stage spiritual.  Discussing the application of EA "theory" to real life, real behavior, is a really important part of learning the paradigm.  It doesn't start getting real, beyond the intellectual, until you start seeing that what EA is describing is not just concepts, but the deepest issues, patterns, and behaviors in someone's life, far beyond the realm we typically conceive of as "astrology". 

A major reason for this board, for the practice charts people start, for the questions, is to help make it real for people.

When I used the term "osmose EA" yesterday, I meant exactly that.  As the paradigm sinks ever deeper into one's consciousness it literally can change one's thinking, ways of perceiving life. Osmose is a Scorpio/Pluto word - it means more or less to completely and deeply merge with something - to ingest it, to become one with it.  In the process it expands us beyond our present limits (Scorpio).  That is the point of all this.

I also want to add another mini-plug - the reason we hold these EA conferences is not to make money (sometimes money is made, sometimes not so much) or to sell things, but primarily to give the live in-person experience of an EA community.  Sitting in a room with people for 2 or 3 days when the whole atmosphere is all about EA jumpstarts that osmosis process.  It gets very real very quickly.  And then you are sitting with people with an orientation towards Natural Law, natural process of giving sharing inclusion.  That to me is equally important to the material being presented, because that is where true osmosis occurs - its a way of life, an experience, a lot more than just ingesting some more information.  I highly encourage anyone who is serious about learning EA to come to the October conference.  There you will experience it in action, way beyond just learning about it.  And the personal connections made do deepen and grow.
Steve


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jun 23, 2009, 07:30 PM
Thank you so much for your kindness, Pam, Steve, and lesley

Thank you for understanding and acceptance.  Looking forward to being more involved...in peaceful commentary.

chuck


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lesley on Jun 24, 2009, 02:52 PM
Hi Chuck,

So nice to have you here...God bless peaceful commentary! :) 

Love and blessings,
Lesley


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 24, 2009, 03:19 PM
Hi Chuck and all,

This peaceful discussion is INDEED heartwarming! Thank you Chuck for being here!

Love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jun 24, 2009, 07:32 PM
You guys are just great! 
And so compassionate.
Thank you Lesley and Lia...

If this is the kind of spirits EA produces, count me in!
much love,
chuck


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Deva on Jun 25, 2009, 09:01 AM
Hi, wanted to say that this is a wonderful thread/discussion!  I also wanted to add my thoughts about the 2nd stage spiritual. It seems to me that this stage is a "purification by fire." In other words, the evolutionary intentions of this stage is to test the Soul as its commitment to serving God/the Source in the context of "the final destruction of the ego in terms of identifying with itself). The bottom line is sincerity of intentions-if the Soul truly desires this type of transformation and wants to make the neccessary changes that must occur in this stage, then, wow, people like Yogananda and Sri Yuekestar and other masters are produced. Of course, there are examples of other Souls who do not make it mast this stage (as have allready been stated). In any case, the point I want to make is that it is a very intense phase of evolution but if the sincerity and intentions of the Soul are geniune then great results/growth occur.
Deva 


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: mountainheather on Jun 25, 2009, 04:40 PM
Hi all, thank you for this connection. I have a question about evolutionary stages and skipped steps, and wonder if it is the start of anew thread, but will post it here for now.  I  sense that when I am working in the area of my skipped steps my perception of my evolutionary condition seems to shift. Its as though when I work in the arenas of my skipped steps my view also returns the evolutionary condition I was in at the time I skipped the lesson.  Is this possible? maybe it could explain some confusion for me  around assessing evolutionary conditions and also how to embrace the nature and quality of the step I am learning to integrate this time around.  Thank you to the river that carries this wisdom...Heather


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Deva on Jun 26, 2009, 09:08 AM
Hi Heather, to me it sounds like you are describing either a transition into another evolutionary state, or resolving skipped steps carried over from the past. We all have left over issues to resolve, and in terms of identifying the evolutionary state always go for the "bottom line" orientation of the individual. 
 The Soul can be "on the cusp" or transitioning from obe evolutionary state into the next (this can happen within any evolutionary states/conditions). When this happens, the Soul will express quaities of both evolutionary states, and flip flop back and forth between them untill the transition into the higher evolutionary state is fully integrated. If you have skipped steps in the chart, and are "on the cusp" of evolutionary states then this process is intensified, or magnified. it is not the first time the Soul has attempted to make the transition into the higher evolutionary state.
Deva   


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 26, 2009, 09:49 AM
Quote
Hi, wanted to say that this is a wonderful thread/discussion!  I also wanted to add my thoughts about the 2nd stage spiritual. It seems to me that this stage is a "purification by fire." In other words, the evolutionary intentions of this stage is to test the Soul as its commitment to serving God/the Source in the context of "the final destruction of the ego in terms of identifying with itself). The bottom line is sincerity of intentions-if the Soul truly desires this type of transformation and wants to make the neccessary changes that must occur in this stage, then, wow, people like Yogananda and Sri Yuekestar and other masters are produced. Of course, there are examples of other Souls who do not make it mast this stage (as have allready been stated). In any case, the point I want to make is that it is a very intense phase of evolution but if the sincerity and intentions of the Soul are geniune then great results/growth occur.

thank you deva, that was clarifying. so the dyanmics of the entire chart are put to a test as any identification with ego is challenged.

each soul at that stage will be blind to the ways in which they are identified with their ego (otherwise identification wouldn't happen)- so the intensity of sketchiness or scoundralness that happens is dependent entirely upon how willing the soul is to cooperate with the evolutionary imperative of that stage.

is this a correct understanding? can we use osho as an example of a second stage spiritual and where according to ea he was not willing to fully surrender?

(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/osho.jpg)


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Rad on Jun 26, 2009, 10:19 AM
Hi Ari
 Rajneesh aka "Osho", is the very embodiment of the worst of the 2nd Stage spiritual, so, yes, he is a perfect example of this.

 Rad


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 27, 2009, 08:34 AM
Hi Everyone,

Interesting flash came to me when I looked at Rajneesh chart here: I remembered a picture of Rajneesh chart that I saw in a book almost two decades ago: the only thing I remembered was the fact that he according to that chart had a 12th house stellium in capricorn and saturn in the 1st house ruling those planets.... this intruged me so I checked 'astro data' and I can see the birth data stated here is correct according to that....however I also noted it states something like: “source: memory" ....so I wonder if it is correct?

Most of the times my memory flashes are correct so I wondered where the heck did I see that chart....

The only things I ever kept in my wondering around the world were my books:-)) ...so this morning I dug more into my memory and I was able to recall a bit more and more; long story short I realised it was in one of Alan Oken's books; I spent most of this morning trying to find the chart and eventually I did find it:-)
BUT unfortunately Oken doesn't give the birth info only the chart itself as one of the examples within his astro explanations (“Alan Oken's Complete Astrology“ page 490)

Well to be honest digging it out was more about wanting to test my own memory than about Rajneesh:-))
But in the meantime I thought it is actually interesting for at the time I read that book I had no knowledge of EA (some 18 years ago when I was in the process of incorporating the english language) but even then this chart made sense to me relative to the events etc...
When I looked at it now again after some 18 years (so now with the 'EA osmosed' view) it made even MORE sense to me....
....so I would like to ask if anyone has some means to clarify what could be the correct birth data and the correct chart?

As Oken doesn't give the birth data let me list here the most important placements of this chart:
AC is 15 capr. 22, MC is 00 scorp. 45 (so IC and DC are the opposite signs of course)
Pluto retro: 21 cancer 43, 7th house just above the horizon
n.node 1 aries 23, falls in 3rd house (Oken used placidus system)
he didn't use the s.node but of course it is the polarity:
1 libra 23, 9th house
sun: 18 sag 17 close, 11th, (very close to 12th cusp which is 21 sag (again with prophyry. sun may or may not change to 12th)
moon: 10 capr. 25 12th
Merc: 06 capr. 21, 12th
venus: 11 capr. 44, 12th
mars:  00 capr. 46 12th
jupiter: retro, 22 leo 38, 8th
saturn: 21 capr. 26, 1st
(ruling all the 12th capr. planets of course while jup in the 8th rules 12th cusp: just makes SO much sense to me at least relative to the historical events, teachings etc; the soul is typically missing itself it's own soul with the 'truths' and pointing to itself instead god...1st saturn then ruling all the 12th planets: total illusion delusion which is self interest based; saturn of course is in almost EXACT opposition to pluto in 7th ONLY 17 second from the absolute full phase)

uranus: retro, 15 aries 32, 3rd house
(this house placement is for sure it is too far from the house cusp. It is in the same sign as n.node, but not  conj.  14 degrees difference; n.node already went through uranus, so new phase)

neptune: retro, 7 virgo 59, 8th

Ok, I came back to this in the afternoon and now I made the hassle to do the easy maths and identify from the AC, MC points the porphyry house cusps. (they are the house placements between the fix AC-DC = 1st and 7th cusps, and MC-IC= 10th and 4th cusps which are the 'skeleton' of the chart)
So the porhhyry cusps would be:
2nd = 20 aq 22,
3rd =  25 pisces 22, (so indeed n.node is in 3rd)
5th =  25 taurus 22
6th =  20 gemini 22
8th = 20 leo 22
9th =  25 virgo 22
11th =  25 scorp. 22,
12th  = 20 sag 22 (so sun is indeed in 11th making much sense- again at least to me)

If anyone has any idea where Oken could have got this chart data and if it can be correct or the astro data given birth date is correct I would really appreciate it;  this would a be an interesting study I believe.

Thanks in advance if anyone is able to help.

Blessings,

Lia







Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: adina on Jun 27, 2009, 09:04 AM
Hi Lia,

I sure can't find anything (so far) to match this chart for Rajneesh, but I think the original fits him SOOO well, especially his preoccupation with sex, and all the orgies, given the 2nd/8th emphasis.  Since I'm a visual learner, I'll have to make a chart showing the planets where you list them, but I'll have to do that later. Hopefully, someone else will come along who can shed some light on this. As you probably already know, Astrodatabank has the same data that Ari posted, except the town is Kutchwada, which doesn't come up in the SF atlas. hmm. (the coordinates are close, however).


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: mountainheather on Jun 27, 2009, 09:51 AM
Hi Deva, just wanted to say thank you for clarifying the question I posted...I so appreciate this . Heather


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 27, 2009, 10:22 AM
Hi Adina,

(http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/images/Rajneesh_lia_chart.jpg)

as for his preoccuption with sex and all the rest this chart places jupiter (retro) in the 8th and it rules his 12th...that has a LOT to do with all that.....along with neptune being in the 8th...so all his 'spiritual' teachings are about sex on the one hand, on the other his soul being identified with being the 'source' of truths (jup and neptune in the 8th) ...that 8th jup also rules of course his 11th sun according to this chart....his 'inventing' (11th) the new truths (sag) according to his OWN intentions (jup in 8th in leo)...8cusp is leo ruled by that 11th sun.....
Cancer pluto in 7th: having the evolutionary past to aquire all the knowledge he needed how to be likeable and attract so many people who  at the end all serves his own egocentric (cancer) needs ruled by 12th moon; as it was the most important 'spiritual' (12 house) norm (capr.) that his followers ( 7th house pluto) of course supply all the material needs he had....the intentions (8th house) being justified by jup in leo...how he handles other people's resource (8th house) is defined by leo jup....he himself is the 'truth'....that's the major 'invention' (11th sun)...

7th pluto rules the 11th house, the house of traumas all originate back to pluto the soul itself, how he relates to others and for what motivations and agendas...opp. saturn in 1st...the SILENCE he has declared himself in and didn't even talk to his 'disciples' for many years ..yet in that silence the issues behind the scenes (12th house capr. planet mars wherein) the intention is all about the fact that venus conj. moon in capr. and mars conj. mercury...a lot of delusion of course....believing oneself to be the ultimate 'standard, norm' etc...and that 12th mars rules the n.node and uranus in the 3rd....the actual reality and the feedback from the immediate environment suppose to make him realise his s.node (9th house!) mistake and suppose to shock the soul out of that jupiterian belief/personal identification with the truths...9th house libra s.node: that's another aspect which makes so much sense to me at least...ruled by capr. venus in the 12th conj. moon...his own self image is totally merges with venus= in the past he has been able to many many times fool so many people  (ruler of s.node venus conj. ruler of pluto in 7th! all goes back to the 7th house pluto how to make others 'see' what ever they want to see in him (the projection issue, riding on other people's needs for truth and abusing it for personal, egocentric interest; cancer, his own security is based on that; to manipulate others to like him and follow him)

....sun in 11th: the goal of life is actually to create a trauma (for others AND for himself so that he may liberate from the personal delusion symbolised by the 12th) and uranus in aries 3rd along with n.node: to realise his OWN individual self behind it all, his motivations, agendas etc. instead of hiding in the leonic feedback of others who have been manipulated and again (via many life times!) being attracted around the soul for the same reason....the issue here being the 1st saturn is trying to implement responsibility for ALL the 12th house planets (for the delusions) but there is incredible resistance of course, pluto opposition...the responsibility can be only enforced...it is all repressed and his own personal 'authority' aspect is the only thing he is getting from it.....natural ruler of first of course in the 12th....

The sag sun in 11th, ruled by leo jup in 8th: TYPICALLY point back to each other and nothing else replaces them in the chart...so they are the very nature the soul got 'stuck in' (8th house) one of the typical 'fall from grace' unconscious need is impritned in that...

At least to me this chart visualy embodies the issue of the 2nd spiritual: the soul does embraced spiritual powers, yet it got SO puffed up in it's own soul (leo 8th cusp. leo jup) that it can't see from it's own total delusions ....the personal planets basically all line up in the 12th....he is the alfa and omega (according to himself).....while neptune in 8th trying to teach humility but the message of course is totally distorted within his consciousness because ruler is mercury in 12th conj. mars: the personal agenda and will overcomes the message....how god is trying to speak to him is via the 3rd cusp (pisces) via all the events that happened in the environment and the feedback from people who are not his followers not under his 'magic' ....but he considers himself typically a 'victim' (that's the deluded pisces message of course) and doesn't get the simplicity of the message: just look around and ACCEPT (pisces) the reality that is unfolding in your most immediate environment in your own life....wake up and look; n.node in this way would point to the need of coming off of the pedestal of the 'guru' (9th house=teacher) and restart everything as being just one of the big brotherhood (3rd house) of life (pisces) and face your TRUE individuality (aries) with all the responsibiliies (saturn in 1st, ruler of mars, that is the ruler of the n.node and uranus of course) and accept (pisces) the truama (uranus) that is trying to help you to awake (uranus) and see the objective reality (uranus) about yourself (aries) as it actually IS (3rd house, observing the facts and making sense in simple ways just as is) ....to liberate from the delusion of believing yourself to the source of the 'truths'...

Satun in capr. in 1st: the responsibility is very very delayed and very much resisted by the soul: 7th pluto in cancer.

the 9th s.node seems to make so so much sense to me...while it's ruler is venus, it's natural ruler of course is that 8th house jup....ruling the sun in 11th:
As Wolf put it once "he was not god realised he was 'sexually realised' at the most"

Of course I have no idea if this is correct or the other chart is correct...would be interesting to know....

Blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: adina on Jun 27, 2009, 11:43 AM
I see where you could sure read his life into that chart, Lia. I have looked and looked for another option, but I still couldn't find one that would match Oken's data. If we use the data he did, though, the 22 degree Cap ASC would result in a TIME of 8:48:43 AM. And I consistently come up with Kuchwara (or something close), India, as the place. Coordinates are 23N09; 078E21.

I found a Vedic astrologer who had analyzed Rajneesh's chart, and he used a different time than what Ari posted OR what Oken evidently used. Here's the URL and a blurb explaining why he used the data he did

http://www.khullarastrologyinstitute.com/eg9_5.php

Horary Astrology and Cuspal Interlinks
Example 9.5 Analysis of Acharya Rajneesh’s chart:
Various learned astrologers have analysed the charts of saints and revolutionary thinkers and justified their achievements as per the strength of the rising Ascendant, and placement of planets in the chart. Their expositions, no doubt, match excellence and brilliance of highest quality. Their efforts beautifully demonstrate their knowledge in the field of Astrology. Often I wonder, if during the Ascendant a saint or great spiritual leader was born, when the planetary positions were so excellent then why only a particular saint or a thinker. The great revolutionary thinker of the twentieth century, Acharya Rajneesh, is reported to be born on 11.12.1931 in a Village Kuchwara, in District Raiscin in Madya Pradesh, India. These details have been obtained by great effort by my friend Mr. P.K. Jain, a senior Government officer. Fig 9.5 represents the natal chart of Acharya Rajneesh. I have made an attempt to analyse the chart through my theory of Sub-Sub lord and Cuspal Interlinks with a view to answer the question “Why only one Acharya Rajneesh ?” during the Ascendant which was rising at that time.

Check of Accuracy: It was difficult to know the time of Birth. Different authors have taken different time but all concentrated on the time period between 17.00 hours and 18.00 hours. Efforts were made to find out from persons close to Acharya Rajneesh so as to confirm this time period. The rectified chart is placed in fig 9.5 above.

Possibility of more persons of Acharya Rajneesh’s calibre is limited to about one minute of the Astrological birth time of Acharya Rajneesh. This is so because the Sub-Sub arc of Mercury in Mercury Sub is of 16 minutes and 2 second longitude. The ideal rate of rising of Ascendant is fifteen minutes per one minute of time. During the span of 16 minutes and 2 second longitude itself, the cuspal positions vary to account for the individuality of a specific birth. The analysis is not limited to planetary positions but is based on cuspal interlinks of Sub-Sub arcs of different cuspal positions, which change even for a birth difference in seconds.

Maybe someone else will be able to find something more or different or both! Very Interesting!

 


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 27, 2009, 02:31 PM
Hi Everyone,

I didn't find any data, but a few interesting articles which may worth to qoute here:

Assessments by scholars of religion
Some scholars have suggested that Osho, like other charismatic leaders, may have had a narcissistic personality.[213][214][215] In his paper The Narcissistic Guru: A Profile of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Ronald O. Clarke, Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at Oregon State University, argued that Osho exhibited all the typical features of narcissistic personality disorder, such as a grandiose sense of self-importance and uniqueness; a preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success; a need for constant attention and admiration; a set of characteristic responses to threats to self-esteem; disturbances in interpersonal relationships; a preoccupation with grooming combined with frequent resorting to prevarication or outright lying; and a lack of empathy.[215] Drawing on Osho's reminiscences of his childhood in his book Glimpses of a Golden Childhood, he suggested that Osho suffered from a fundamental lack of parental discipline, due to his growing up in the care of overindulgent grandparents.[215] Osho's self-avowed Buddha status, he concluded, was part of a delusional system associated with his narcissistic personality disorder; a condition of ego-inflation rather than egolessness.[215]

In questioning how the total corpus of Osho's work might be summarised, Bob Mullan, a sociologist from the University of East Anglia, stated in 1983: "It certainly is eclectic, a borrowing of truths, half-truths and occasional misrepresentations from the great traditions. It is also often bland, inaccurate, spurious and extremely contradictory."[216] He also acknowledged that Osho's range and imagination were second to none,[216] and that many of his statements were quite insightful and moving, perhaps even profound at times,[217] but what remained was essentially "a potpourri of counter-culturalist and post-counter-culturalist ideas" focusing on love and freedom, the need to live for the moment, the importance of self, the feeling of "being okay", the mysteriousness of life, the fun ethic, the individual's responsibility for their own destiny, and the need to drop the ego, along with fear and guilt.[218]

Writing in 1996, Hugh B. Urban similarly found Osho's teaching neither original nor especially profound, noting that most of its content had been borrowed from various Eastern and Western philosophies.[154] What he found most original about Osho was his keen commercial instinct or "marketing strategy", by which he was able to adapt his teachings to meet the changing desires of his audience,[154] a theme also picked up on by Gita Mehta in her book Karma Cola: Marketing the Mystic East.[219] In 2005, Urban observed that Osho had undergone a "remarkable apotheosis" after his return to India, and especially in the years since his death, going on to describe him as a powerful illustration of what F. Max Müller, over a century ago, called "that world-wide circle through which, like an electric current, Oriental thought could run to the West and Western thought return to the East."[220] By negating the dichotomy between spiritual and material desires, and reflecting the preoccupation with the body and sexuality characteristic of late capitalist consumer culture, Osho had apparently been able to create a spiritual path that was remarkably in tune with the socio-economic conditions of his time.

Hugh B. Urban, Assistant Professor of Religion and Comparative Studies at Ohio State University, noted that Osho appeared to fit with Max Weber’s classical image of the charismatic figure, being held to possess "an extraordinary supernatural power or 'grace', which was essentially irrational and affective".[212] Moreover, Osho corresponded to Weber's pure charismatic type in rejecting all rational laws and institutions and claiming to subvert all hierarchical authority, even though the promise of absolute freedom inherent in this eventually resulted in new and more powerful forms of bureaucratic organisation and institutional control within the sannyasin community.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lia on Jun 27, 2009, 03:38 PM
Thanks so much Steve for putting up the chart!
You are a blessing to this community - in more than one way!

(sometimes I wonder how marvelously god/ess 'organises' things even via the most 'mundane' ways...what would we do without someone with computer knowledge? ;D)

Love and blessings,
Lia


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: stephen on Jun 28, 2009, 05:59 AM
Hi Everyone,

I was wanted to say thanks for this thread.  It has really helped me to understand some of the nuances in the overall progression of the Soul through the Evolutionary Stages.

Adina and I had a conversation earlier, and she is going to start a new post talking about her observations on evolutionary stages, how to spot them in people, and the types of questions and mistakes people new to this paradigm tend to make while learning about stages.  Please all feel free to join in and ask questions, offer insights, etc. 

I look forward to that posting, but most importantly, I hope that you are well Adina.

Blessings,
Stephen


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: ari moshe on Jun 28, 2009, 11:25 AM
the 8th house neptune seems fitting. it feels like there ought to be some heavy 8th house happening. also mars in cap in the 12th makes a lot of sense- and the lack of strucutre in early life fits cap in the 12th.

in the astro data chart (btw from google map, jabalpur=kutchwada), venus moon and saturn both end up in cap in the 8th house- and that would really explain the financial and sexual stuff as well. Saturn opposing second house pluto for sure. however I feel that in his autobiography, there would have been more about poverty or hard times or something like that. rather in his book autobiography of a spiritually incorrect mystic he mostly spoke about being silent as a child and spending a lot of time alone in nature- being far from parental authority. that speaks strongly to the cap 12th house stuff.

maybe one of us will do some fun solar arc work.







Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jul 04, 2009, 09:20 AM
Good morning to all!

I have a question about stages of spiritual growth...whether it's possible to move from one to another in a single lifetime?  Our physical actions, and those promptings from within are observable to us, but the actuality as to 'where' we end up, stage-wise, is pre-ordained in our chart...right?  Once made aware of these 'conditions', doesn't the 'knowing' provide impetus for additional growth/expansion, possibly even major leaps?

This begs the question:  Do we have the power to create our reality…and if so, with what limitations?  This question is asked in humbleness, with the hope to move closer to Source.  Relativity of stages is unimportant.  These are only words...and maybe this alone answers the question.  Pluto conjunct NN in ninth, in Leo wants only to move as far forward as possible…

Having been led to your wonderful site by my friend, Linda, another spiritual dimension is opening for me.  For example, the idea of an imperfect God/ess (Ess/God  :)) struck a chord and invites much pondering and many intriguing questions, but I'm not there yet.  First, perspective must be obtained.  I recognize, or should I say ‘glimpse’ from time to time, Oneness (tho can’t conceptualize), so if a part of the whole (Source) is capable of creativity, aren’t all parts?  All That IS comes Thru us, then, not from us.  We are vehicles from which LOVE can express in ITS myriad ways.  Oneness.

Beginning in the early 80's, There was a major transformation within, spurred, and reinforced by outer discoveries...treasures, really.  This path is laden with givers, which is the tell-tell sign of truth.   That there are some who jump on this path strictly for material gain is of no consequence to me.  I wish only to be single-minded in the quest...Truth finding its mark unerringly in the heart.

Anyway, this first transformation was away from the major belief systems of the world whose ‘followers’ believe in the traditional patriarchal God, separate and rationing out blessings and punishment based on our ‘keeping the commandments’.   The rich soil from which newness began to blossom is nurtured, primarily, by the ever-expanding acceptance of our inherent creativity…which is enacted thru every thought, word and action.  There have been countless evidences that it is so.  Jesus' only condition is that we have the faith of a mustard seed.  Of couse, that seed appears to be the size of a mountain in out barely awakened state (speaking of self).  Mabe I have answered my own question again? 

As T-Pluto moves thru Capricorn, the key to understanding Jesus’ words will become more and more apparent, it is hoped.  Before consciously creating, responsibility must be assumed…the responsibility to love and nourish each creation…in the highest sense of the word.

So, to end this ramble, the main question for now is:  What is the EA view of the Deepak Chopras and Wayne Dyers of the world…who teach to the max this concept that we create our own reality?  And what is the difference between this, and EA’s understanding?

I truly love reading your words here…all of you, and am looking forward with relish to your responses.
Love and magnificent obsessions,
chuck


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Rad on Jul 04, 2009, 09:50 AM
Hi Chuck,

So, to end this ramble, the main question for now is:  What is the EA view of the Deepak Chopras and Wayne Dyers of the world…who teach to the max this concept that we create our own reality?  And what is the difference between this, and EA’s understanding?

************************************************************************

 The main difference is that EA reflects natural laws, the natural laws of the Source or God. It is true that we can create our maximum potential in any given life relative to the limitations of what is possible in any given life. As Wolf so often said: 'If it's not possible, in this life, for a person to be the President of the USA, no matter how much that Soul may try to 'create' being a President, if it's not possible within the Soul's potential in that life, it just is not going to happen'.
 So EA is all about realizing what is possible for any given Soul in any given life and to encourage each Soul to do just that. As the same time it is allows for an awareness of what IS NOT POSSIBLE IN ANY GIVEN LIFE. And thus can council others, or the person itself, to these facts as well.

  Rad


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jul 04, 2009, 11:40 AM
Thank you for the easy to understand, common sense clarification, Rad!

chuck


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Steve on Jul 04, 2009, 11:48 AM
Hi Chuck

Adding to Rad's "what is possible for any given Soul in any given life", is that relates to the program for a lifetime that the Soul creates prior to entering that lifetime.  There are parameters or limits (the Soul correlates to Pluto, and Pluto correlates to limits) within which a life will play out.  

When I encounter Chopra and Dyer types, I sometimes ask "Who is desiring to create these realities, the personality or the soul?".  Too often I find people holding the "create your own reality" perspective don't make enough distinction between the two.  The nature of reality is, in the end the Soul wins.  If the personality longs for something that's not aligned with the Soul's intentions, in the end it won't be possible to create that reality.    

Most of us are not conscious of our Soul's intentions, so striving for things we later realize we can not achieve is one way we become aware of the intentions/workings of our Soul.  In other words, even if, in the end, we realize something we've worked very hard for just can not be, it's not been a waste of time. Because through that process we have learned more about the nature of our Soul, and the evolutionary intents/limits of this lifetime.

Quote
I have a question about stages of spiritual growth...whether it's possible to move from one to another in a single lifetime?  Our physical actions, and those promptings from within are observable to us, but the actuality as to 'where' we end up, stage-wise, is pre-ordained in our chart...right?  Once made aware of these 'conditions', doesn't the 'knowing' provide impetus for additional growth/expansion, possibly even major leaps?

First, you can not see within a natal chart the person's evolutionary stage.  That also means you can't see the evolutionary stage they are intended to wind up in.

There are 3 major stages of evolution, and 3 sub-stages within each of those 3 stages.   It can take hundreds of thousands of years to advance through those 9 archetypes.  This is difficult to grasp, because our reference of time is what I call the 80 year horizon.  To the human, the 80 year average life span seems like a really long time.  Yet, relative to the evolutionary journey of a Soul, 80 years is perhaps ten seconds.  So in general the evolutionary progress within a single life, from our 80 year lifespan perspective, doesn't seem like much.  No one is coming in as 2nd stage consensus and leaving as 3rd stage individuated.  

It takes a series of lives to go through a single sub-stage. Someone coming in at 3rd stage consensus could possibly advance to 1st stage individuated in a life, but in most cases they would have been near the end of 3rd stage consensus on entering the life.  And they leave with two toes in the water of Indiv stage 1 - just barely begun.  Wolf said a Soul can be stationed at the cusp between two stations, such as 1st stag indiv and 2nd stag indiv, for a series of lives, with a certain amount of back and forth behaviors.

Changing evolutionary stations is major.  Most Souls can only integrate the necessary emotional changes at what seems like a slow pace.  To the Soul undergoing those changes, they do not FEEL slow, they can feel like more than they can handle.   From our 80 year lifespan perspective, the pace of evolution appears slow.  Soul progress comes from developing an attitude of slow but steady. "Steady" means developing inner determination and drive to keep moving forward no matter what, no matter how long it takes.
Steve


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jul 04, 2009, 03:27 PM
Steve,

Thank you very much for explaining that it would be wise to just slow down...and why.

The point you make about personality vs soul is well taken, and helps me understand 'reality-creationers better.  But they provide a valuable lesson along the path, don't you think?  Where 'religion' conditions us to think we are separate and powerless, the Chopras, et all encourage us to take responsibility for our thoughts, words and actions.  None of the 'real' R. C.'s claim glory for the personality.  Instead they speak of Oneness...that Source blesses us with his/her gift of creativity.  This feels right to me, and has for many years (a split-second  ;)).  These are not pompous people.  They speak of love, giving and humility.  They offer sincere gratitude for this gift.  I understand that is the same with dedicated 'preaches' of religion...but that does not FEEL right.

Maybe I'm all wet, but we are encouraged to 'trust ourselves'.  What then does this mean if not to go with what, thru observation and experience, feels right?  What other guidance is there?  Does it mean I'm not 'far enough along' to recognize Truth and Love?  That Chopra and Dyer are in it for material Gain?  (to be honest, tho, there is a part of me that always peeks up to ask why those who know truth...would sell it?)

Well, now I'm getting confused again.  Mostly, talking to myself, trying to express things to see what I know and don't know.  I sincerely hope no one is offended by my questions, they are from a soul struggling to understand, to have it all fall into place...and I seem to be stuck.  Hopefully better questions will come after this stuff tumbles around a bit.

Thank you again, Steve.  :)

peacefully,
chuck







Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Steve on Jul 05, 2009, 07:41 AM
Hi Chuck

Quote
(to be honest, tho, there is a part of me that always peeks up to ask why those who know truth...would sell it?)

A very good question, Chuck.  I'd encourage you to consider that deeply.  As you are considering, consider the implications, if this is correct, about the realities these folks have created.  What DO they tell themselves, day after day, to justify this?

Quote
The point you make about personality vs soul is well taken, and helps me understand 'reality-creationers better.  But they provide a valuable lesson along the path, don't you think?  Where 'religion' conditions us to think we are separate and powerless, the Chopras, et all encourage us to take responsibility for our thoughts, words and actions.

That is true.  All that's being said here is these beliefs as they have been laid out are not the complete truth - they are partially true.  Proof is, in the actual lives of people who practice this philosophy, in many cases they are not creating the reality they think they want even though they are doing everything you are supposed to do.  If a belief or explanation does not work IN ALL CASES it can't be complete truth.  Full truth correlates with the actual reality experienced in the lives of all people in all cases.

I will use Create Your Own Reality authors as an example.  For every one who "makes it", there are 99 who don't.  They all passionately believe and practice Create Your Own Reality principles.  Their desire to help people in most cases is genuine.  They also generally want to "make a great living", become well known, doing something they feel is helping people in a positive way.

Why is it 1% achieve that and 99% don't?  They all passionately practice Create Your Own Reality principles, do the work, write the book, find the agent, get the speaking gigs.   They are doing everything you are supposed to do yet it doesn't happen.  If it is true that we can create any reality that we want, how do you explain this?  

When I restate the principle as "You can create any reality you want that is within the Soul's program", all of a sudden we have an explanation of why this does not happen in many cases.  Using the tools of EA we can even see within a chart the likelihood of whether a desired reality is within the Soul's program.

Quote
Maybe I'm all wet, but we are encouraged to 'trust ourselves'.  What then does this mean if not to go with what, thru observation and experience, feels right?

Nothing in what I wrote suggested you should not go for what feels right to you.  All I said is sometimes, in the end, you are not going to wind up with the reality you thought you wanted to create.  Nothing in that statement says you shouldn't try.   How else will you learn what your Soul's program is?  How will  you know whether something is aligned with it unless you pursue what you feel drawn to?

Another good example is John McCain.  The guy REALLY wanted to be President.  He did everything he knew how to create that reality, even willing to lie through his teeth.  In the end he did not create the reality he wanted.  It was just not in the program.  Was it wrong that he tried?

Another way to say this is we can't be attached to outcome. The value is in the effort, not in the outcome.   Through following the impulses of what feels right we learn more about Self.  

How often have we realized after completing a phase in life that turned out other than expected that it was actually good that it turned out as it did?  Yet we never would have pursued the objective, at the beginning, had we known how it was going to turn out, because that was not a reality we would have wanted to create.  The Soul had its outcome in mind, and what we wind up with is the necessary outcome instead of the desired outcome.  In the end we realize that how it worked out was actually in our best interest.  

These are among the ways we learn about the nature of our Soul.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: chuck h on Jul 05, 2009, 11:11 PM
Steve,

Thanks for your remarks.

You all are very thoughtful.

always the best to you,
chuck


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Linda on Jul 28, 2009, 07:55 PM
Hi Adina,

30 years ago Swami Muktananda was my guru for a few years.  I received his grace, the awakening of shaktipat, met him in person, and also witnessed his deep love and heart-wrenching grief when he spoke about his own guru, Nityananda.

He taught the Yoga of Kundalini (spiritual energy) and Gurukripa (grace of the Guru), which correlate to the Root and Crown Chakras.     

Adina, I think you said that progressive spiritual enlightenment works on the level of "vibration". 

I always felt Nityananda's vibration to be very powerful and wondered whether he had reached the final stage of realisation:  but of course I'm not sure.  Do you know?

Where would these Siddha Gurus fit in line with our discussion on spiritual stages?

Thank you.


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: ari moshe on Jul 29, 2009, 01:08 AM
I want to share with ya'll that Maurice Fernandez's new book "Astrology and the Evolution of Consciousness" has within it the best description of evolutionary states I have encountered so far. He gives various theoretical examples and stories of sun and moon signs in different evolutionary states. It literally came out a couple weeks ago, I highly recommend it!





Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: Lucius on Jul 30, 2009, 10:02 AM
I was interested in what folks here think of Carlos Casteneda - ?  I was thinking he was an example of 2nd stage spiritual gone awry...or, he may not be in that stage whatsoever.

His birth time, place, date is:  2.00PM  Cajamarca, Peru   December 25 1925

He's controversial - mainly the veracity of the Don Juan books.  There are many contradictions (or you could call them lies) in & about his books.  For instance, when he describes being somehwhere with Don Juan, in reality he's sitting in the library with all sorts of shamanistic books, history, etc.  Hmmmm.......Also, one of his more well-known exploits attributed to Don Juan really happened to Ramon Silva Medina - an authentic Huichol medicine man...however, if I'm not mistaken, Carlos witnessed that & apparently got on well with R.Medina.

Later, CC eschewed Peyote saying it was destructive...which seems totally bogus to me...he apparently lied about his illness & concocted some silliness about what would happen when he died.  There was a handful of women who left their lives as they knew it & changed their names etc. & devoted themselves to him....they all mysteriously disappeared after CC death - one being found near her abandoned car in a severely degraded physical form.

Just a couple of things from his chart - he has Juptier conjunct south node in 9th Cap - easy to see the shamanistic qualities...however, also the lies & need to take responsibility for those lies - and how he assumed responsibility for others actual achievements/reality.  Saturn with mars in 7th of Scorpio ties into the preceding & the nature of his relationships - describes pretty well the situation with those women.  His Pluto placement, & the placement of ruler could show his self-involvement, narcissism, etc.  Well...I'm clearly taking a negative view - so, what do you folks think?  2nd stage?  Deluded by evil?  Lucifer is retro in the second of gemini....clear to see there too his lies within his writings.......


Title: Re: second stage spiritual
Post by: ari moshe on Jul 30, 2009, 12:23 PM
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/arimoshe/carloscastenada.jpg)