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ari moshe
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« on: Jan 07, 2010, 02:31 PM »

Is there at all anyway to get Lucifer on solar fire?

I'm being given ample opportunities (both in my personal life, and via astrology) to learn all about it...

My friend came to me with a story. She and her partner was camping in mount shasta- they almost got killed by a dark force that tends to attack people at mount shasta. This experience for her was a big awakening as she finally "got" it that there are souls whose m.o truly is evil.

Here's her chart. She is an intuitive, healer- community organizer, author- on the cusp of second stage spiritual I'd say.

I drew in her natal lucifer at 5 degrees libra.

24 leo- sn of lucifer
14 aqu- nn of lucifer

« Last Edit: Jan 07, 2010, 02:34 PM by ari moshe » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 07, 2010, 03:02 PM »

On the night at Shasta, Mercury was transiting in between her Pluto Lucifer conjunction.

So I'm going to look at her Lucifer, as well as the nodes of Lucifer to get the story.
This is what I wrote to her about Lucifer on her chart. I'm adding in parenthesis for all of us the ea reasoning.

"i was thinking about you being born with lucifer on pluto. it has such strong meaning. being born with that signature defines the quality of consciousness that has been established previous to this life. we can say that your soul's desire (Pluto) has been to transmute what manifests as darkness, when it is feared, into light and literally be an example of that metamorphosis (conjunct lucifer in the 5th). So literally, in the past you have been seeking to show others (5th libra) that darkness can turn into light. In order to learn that lesson, in recent lifetimes in particular you have "taken" on darkness just so you can prove to yourself that you are in fact a tras-muter of darkness into light (all in the 5th). However... In so doing of course, you were also blind to your own limitations and you become susceptible to the darkness via an elated ego (5th house) that thought very highly of your apparent impenetrability. As a result you were PUSHED way way down and people stopped seeing your light (Libra in the 5th). That was an evolutionary catalyst for you to ultimately go deeper into the light that comes from SOURCE and source alone. So that shasta experience was such a blessed way to learn."

Also, all this happening in libra, and sextile the Neptune in the 7th, which itself is opposing Saturn and trine the south node- shows that she has taken on a lot of responsibility to work with other people's darkness. While she has been a powerful healer in the past, it also shows that she has attracted parasitic energy through her partners/other people in general who she wanted to see the best in and was in fact naive about evil (neptune saturn-moon, neptune in the 7th, all that in relation to pluto lucifer- and the south node being super social and needing to be liked by others). This also relates to past lives in being repeatedly broken by other people not beleiving in her/persecuting her for her light. All this in order for her to become truly detached from validation from others, and do her soul's work of shining.

THE NODES OF LUCIFER

The north node of lucifer is conjunct her lunar north node- implying the familiarity with having working with this stuff in the past and the imperative to continue to work with darkness and being a bearer of light. that Lucifer nn in the 10th is squared by her natal palas athene in taurus in the 12th. So there was have persecution relative to her nature as a woman (taurus in the 12th) and her power deemed wrong by her society (10th house). Her past life memory is of a woman who was a catholic religious leader and author. this soul channeled a lot, and opened up many nuneries- however she was super repressive of emotions and human needs. It's as if she was bringing light into the world by suppressing her human nature- this would have been a result of lifetimes before that in which she was persecuted for her sexuality, her feminine nature. Is this true?

How would we understand Neptune in the 7th squaring the south node of Lucifer?
« Last Edit: Jan 07, 2010, 03:04 PM by ari moshe » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 07, 2010, 06:12 PM »

Hi Ari,

Just a short note if you don't mind me jumping in:
first where did you get the correlation that taurus is one's feminine nature? That's not the case...taurus n short is one's inner relationship to oneSELF...amongst many other things it also correlates to one's essential needs BASED on the underlying MEANING that one gives to life...life in a BODY manifesting in a form...so that's about survival as well.....all this is based on an inner VALUE SYSTEM..... upon which one is basing everything in their life relative to this inner relationship to oneself...taurus is the inner side of venus.....so you also need to look at venus iteself to understand what the chart is telling about the INNER and the OUTER relationships.....what you will find relative to venus will be two sided, inner and outer.....so the inner impact is taurus....the outer is libra.....
But even that is not enough you need to see further, study the 2nd and the 7th house with all correlations.....all those symbols will come back to a valuesystem.....how one feels invardly depends on WHAT THEY VALUE....and how they do it (or have done it in the past)....
....
All this need to be carefully taken into consideration before we can have any feeling as what a 12th hosue taurus may mean....for it can be extremely different in essence based on the above....

What is for sure is just that in some ways for some reasons hidden in the chart whatever the valuesystem and the identified needs based on that valuesystem have been in the past the soul is now in the process of CULMINATING IT.......what exactly culminating, how and why etc. can be understood only via understanding the whole chart.....

...and one more thing: whatever is on or within the 12th house there is a need to shed light on at least SOME degree of illusions:-) ...illusion that seemd real for a long time ....

What that illusion may be again can NOT be said unless the whole chart is understood properly via the EA method....

Neptune has a lot to do with the very nature of one's particular WAYS of forming illusions....and remember lucifer always but always attacks our weakest point....so when we have an illusion guess what? It becomes pretty much our weak point......this is how evil can actually exploit even on's most dearly held ideals....and it sure does if we aren't careful and believe in illusions while we think we chase some sort of ideal........that's why so many many times evil is hiding behind 'god'....it says or it may evn appear as it i some sacred thing.....and people with illusions would buy into it....just look around the world...what happened with most so called religions...Huh

And one more thing: lucifer itself is never the bearer of light IN ITSELF.....IN ORDER TO GET THERE ONE NEEDS TO EMBRACE THE POLARITY of lucifer....just as with all othr symbols.....


Anyways, I have to go now, but thought I mention these tings so that you may rethink the whole issue again....hope that's okay??

Blessings,
Lia

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ari moshe
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 07, 2010, 07:22 PM »

This is how we can learn from each other. I'm grateful for your post, lia- your just contributing in the way that is natural for you. You may stop apologizing!  Shocked

I'd be very interested in hearing your and anyone's interpretation of this chart in specific to everything lucifer. Then I can actually see how others see it and recognize where I may be missing something.

I understand what your saying about Taurus- to me that is what femininity is all about. In this case, I can see the illusions (12th house) have been based on a guilt that it was wrong for her to enjoy sensuality, and pleasure for her own self. I would still assess from this chart that this can be linked to previous lifetimes in which she was persecuted for how she related to her own values. I use femininity here as a way to describe the sensual survival nature of Taurus- simply enjoying her body and experiencing the love of it- from the point of view of being connected to her natural resources, and the ability to receive what is. Relative to Pluto and the nodes- there were past lives in which she was a preistess of sorts, leading orgies or things like that (5th house pluto sextile neptune in 7th, south node in leo in the 3rd with sun in Aquarius- and also, the ruler of the nn of Lucifer which is conj the lunar north node in Leo in the 5th, opposing mars- both of which are semi/sesqui square the nodes for having "overdone" it in the past). Activities that were blissful, but also naive in which she shared herself too openly with others, and irresponsible at times (venus in pisces, neptune in 7th opposing saturn) resulting in an attraction of souls that had negative intentions and being persecuted by social figures. Is this false?? If so, why?

The Pallas athene here seems to imply a pattern of self sacrifice (12th) that has developed as it relates to what makes her life worth living (taurus)- such that she developed an idealized concept of purity, and felt personal pleasure (Taurus) to be sinful. What she built (nn of lucifer in 10th) was alternative structures (aquarius in the 10th) that allowed for quiet and meditation (taurus in the 12th). The skipped step here i believe is in having believed that the body, or personal riches leads to sin- while at some point she was on the opposite end, over doing pleasure in a way that wasn't responsible or ethical.

The Polarity of Lucifer, which comes into natural expression through developing the north node of Lucifer and all the other ea developments of the natal chart- is found in Aries in the 11th house- right there with Chiron. The very fact that natal Lucifer is opposing Chiron in the 11th relates to a deep sense of woundedness as it comes to expressing herself in the world in such a way as to make meaningful social change. bearing the light in this case implies cultivating a true sense of detachment in which she truly doens't care what other people think of her. This comes up so many times in her chart. She may always feel a vulnerability when it comes to her own evolved way of thinking that isn't always valued or shared by those around her. She is able to illuminate (lucifer) the holes in our way of living by herself being an example of CLEAR THINKING (11th house, with mars the ruler in aries in the 11th semi square the north node in Aquarius in the 9th).

Quote
Neptune has a lot to do with the very nature of one's particular WAYS of forming illusions....and remember lucifer always but always attacks our weakest point....so when we have an illusion guess what? It becomes pretty much our weak point......this is how evil can actually exploit even on's most dearly held ideals....and it sure does if we aren't careful and believe in illusions while we think we chase some sort of ideal........that's why so many many times evil is hiding behind 'god'....it says or it may evn appear as it i some sacred thing

That's beautiful. So that really helps understand the nature of the Pallas in Taurus in the 12th squaring Lucifer nn in Aquarius in the 10th. To me, that relates to an idealized concept of purity around the resources she was given by creator- thinking that they can be shared openly to benefit all people- that attracted trauma (aquarius) from authority figures (10th house) that sought to take from her what was really her own (taurus in the 12th). To me, that then lead to the pattern perhaps described by her life as an influential catholic nun who set up many stoic monastaries and abstained from personal pleasure. She channeled inspired books (pallas athene) while living mostly in seclusion, in poverty and chastity (taurus int he 12th- and abstaining from sex of course, venus in Pisces). She was a reformer in the catholic church as it related to ideas around complete surrender to God as to not need anything on a physical level. However I believe a lot of that was self punishment.

This lifetime, with the sun on the north node, but ruling leo in the 3rd- it's about creating her own alternative path, but one that takes her deeper into the world of duality. So being able to surrender to God and use all the material resources given to her for her work, and simultaneously be a part of the world. Uranus, the ruler of her north node in Aquarius in the 5th implies the need to be detached from any ideas of what she is supposed to look like/how she is supposed to behave. simply being who she is, free from ideas of who she is supposed to be is a healing for her soul. Also, the ruler of the pallas, venus in pisces in the 10th conj Vesta= a part of that implies ultimatley finding a partner who is also seeking purity in thier own actions so that they can truly be of service, and has also gone through a lot of confusion as it relates to giving and receiving, and guilt around creating boundaries etc...


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Lesley
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 08, 2010, 07:05 AM »

Hi Ari, Lia and all,

It is so true about embracing the polarity of Lucifer (or any planet) to evolve that planet or asteroid...but then, do we not come back to the original placement of Lucifer (or any planet) to complete the work? Wolf used to say, "The solution is in the symbol itself."

To my way of thinking, Maurice Fernandez had such a great way of explaining this. He used the Virgo/Pisces polarity in an example (but I paraphrase him here): "For Virgo to evolve, we have to embrace the Pisces polarity. But the Virgo placement is never left behind; we return to Virgo with our Pisces lessons and live Virgo in a whole new way."

That is the way I approach finding "the bearer of light" within Lucifer in my own chart. Smiley

Love and blessings to all,
Lesley
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ari moshe
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 08, 2010, 01:11 PM »

Thanks Lesley-
would you be down to show us an example of that? maybe of your own chart?
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Gonzalo
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 08, 2010, 01:35 PM »

Hi Ari, Lia, Lesley and all ….

Just a few questions and comments, hoping it’s ok if I jump in …

This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??

…  Neptune in the 7th Sag would correlate to illusions/delusions about not only people in general being fair or good but also to the inherent and general goodness of manifested Creation  … wouldn’t the opposition of the Moon in the 1st Gemini correlate to experiences of disillusionment which have caused her to doubt of her instinctual/emotional response to experience, and (given the Moon’s rulership of the 3rd house Cáncer) this doubts permeating how she generally interprets phenomenal reality ? … this would suggests that she knows (SN ruler being in the 9th conjunct NN), but, though she knows, she still doubts, and somehow, perhaps at a mental level keeps thinking things may be one way or the other … thus needing to recreate experiences leading to establish what is actually real for her … and of course, to take emotion into the picture, ie. integrating her emotional response as necessary information in the process of establishing phenomenal reality … to think with her emotional body instead of suppressing emotion …. for instance, if she happens to feel fear, not to get scared but to think that her body is telling her that here may be something dangerous of what she needs to be aware …. also, to take note of what she doubts of instead of thinking that it doesn’t matter whether it is one way or the other, in order to elaborate what the emotional reasons for the doubts are … 

… It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap) …. given that  Pluto rules the 7th where Neptune lies, and the sextile between Pluto and Neptune, keeping in mind that Pluto/Mars  are in full phase with Mars ruling her 12th … wouldn’t she feel easily drawn to compulsively keep on asserting herself in self-deluding relationships , as an unconscious means to create necessary confrontations with reality?? … given that the SN is in the 3rd the ruler being the Sun in the 9th and with Jupiter in the 8th Sag, she would be very emotionally invested in her beliefs … though, the inconjunct between Saturn/Jupiter suggests that she would  need to create experiences leading to crisis in order to reevaluate how she is interpreting reality about herself, others and life in general … in order to readjust these beliefs …  she would have been reluctant to do this because she has preferred to suppress or ignore her own doubts and just trust her strength to face whatever comes up and/or to change situations and people, as compensation of feelings of not being loved (Pluto 5th Libra, Venus  10th Pisces, Chiron in Aries opposing Pluto, Saturn Rx 1st …), this creating a superwoman type complex ??

… with Pluto in the 5th, it is clear that the Lucifer conjunction refers at this level the need to stop depending on others to confirm her specialness …. the NN ruler Uranus going back to the 5th indicating the intention to free herself of the need to be loved and reckoned by so many others, or the need to be so special to deserve being loved  … thus, accepting to be loved and acknowledged by the right people as an equal … this would in turn allow the conscious confirmation to be made that there are things good and things not so good, things she can bear and things she must avoid, instead of taking over herself the darkness of others as a means to be loved, though losing sight  of her own light in the way … then, would the Neptune square to SN of Lucifer in the 4rd Leo correlate to how her emotional dependence on ego recognition (4th Leo) have prepared the ground for her delusions/illusions about others, about her need to heal others, potential disillusionments as to who she can and she cannot help, and further, about beliefs and interpretation of reality at a metaphysical level?

Thank you for the chance to participate in this thread, wishing to read your upcoming posts and answers on the subject.

Many Blessings,

Gonzalo.
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Lia
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 08, 2010, 03:13 PM »

Hi Lesley,


Of course embracing the polarity of anything will result in a new way of living and experiencing the particular symbol that is symbolised with any planet.....however saying that it is at one point enough and then we need to turn back and 'going back' to where we started is a misunderstanding in short....

First of all because coming back is possible only if we left from somewhere....do you think any of our planets will ever move an inch in our chart? I don't think so....what I think is happening is just that within that very symbol there is an inward evolution happens EVERY MOMENT throughout our lives....

So there is no coming back to where we never left.....but there is a continuous NEW WAY of living the very same symbol be that virgo or whatever as our life evolves and especially if we make a conscious effort to progress.....the direction of this progress of this broadening of our consciousness in particular ways (as our chart symbols will highlight where exactly what and why needs to be evolved/progressed) and that in a very short way always but always includes the CONTINUOUS EMBRACING OF THE POLARITY of the whatever symbol....

This never ends it will be the same essentially as long as we live.....so how exactly it is possible then to 'come back' to the original symbol when that symbol is absolutely and entirely with us for a whole life time?   
Of course there is and should be a new way of experiencing the very symbol (every symbol in our chart) if we make the effort (or when life forces us and we have no choice but to change and evolve)....no evolutionary force will ever point 'backward'....life is not a one lesson journey ...I've done it once in some ways in some respect so now I am ready, I am done I can sit back for I now experiencing a whole new way of the whatever symbol....

While what you said at the first sight looks as there is some meaning, in reality the actual meaning is that evolution isn't necessary the polarity point isn't something that should be worked towards during our whole life...rather lets allow the inner forces that keeps us stuck somewhere and let justify it with some 'logic'.....
That's what it actually saying and it is saying it in a way that it sounds like something else than what it actually is.....

Think about it for yourself....
When a soul makes an evolutionary leap yeah, ABSOLUTELY the symbols in the natal chart or at least some or one of them will be experienced and lived in a TOTALLY NEW WAY....yeap a whole new way of virgo will emerge via embracing the polarity of pisces...but does that mean we are 'done'? Looking at it in that new way doesn't apply a new way of embracing the polarity ever further? Now relative to the newly reached level, so from there embracing the polarity will be done in a WHOLE NEW WAY. Why?  because the previous meaning, understanding, perception of what virgo means has been left behind...THEREFORE the polarity automatically will also have a WHOLE NEW MEANING....SO THAT ACCORDING TO THIS WHOLE NEW MEANING CONSCIOUSNESS CAN PROCEED TO EMBRACE THAT NEWLY DEFINED POLARITY LESSON.

Is that not so? Think about it for yourself...what virgo meant for you and hat it means now has evolved hasn’t it? So isn’t that affecting right way FROM WITHIN THAT VIRGO SYMBOL what it’s polarity pisces means perceiving it with that renewed virgo ‘viewpoint’?
Oh yeah, the solution is in the symbol because it is totally interconnected. So once again, what pisces means depends on how virgo is perceived and what virgo means depends on how pisces is perceived....it has little to do with what pisces or virgo REALLY means...it has to do with the SUBJECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS who perceives it, experiences it and lives it....

Meaning as consciousness evolves step by step it will perceive the VERY SAME THING differently...and that’s the deal called evolution....




.as we embrace broader and broader horizons we evolve on a ‘spiral like’ way...we are above the same spot so to speak if we look at our chart...the same symbol will be lived all along the way...question is how?? What level are we experiencing that symbol on the invisible spiral? And whatever that is it will automatically DEFINE the perception of the polarity as well.....

So nothing else changes only the consciousness that perceives experiences and gives meaning to it....
That changes of course that‘s the heart of evolution....but the simple rule i.e. embracing the polarity in whatever level we are is what gives way to grow further and further doesn’t....

 The lesson to embrace the polarity doesn’t change....so there is no coming back to where we never left......what will change is what all this actually MEANS to us and how we live it experiencing it....

Thus the 'whole new way' of living a symbol is actually a life long task and not ‘one off ‘ adventure after which we ‘come back’ and sit on our bum living happily ever after wrapping ourselves with a convenient illusion that we are all ’done’  ......

Well, of course we CAN that’s a choice:-) .....we have free will we can choose anything....

However I personally will never advise my clients to do that for I would seriously mislead and confuse them regarding their actual evolutionary lessons. For the same reason I can not support such illusion to be 'true' for it is the opposite of the truth -- and by the way the opposite of what Wolf is actually teaching.   

"The solution is in the symbol itself." That's very true of course! Because no symbol exists or can have any meaning by itself. Wolf always taught us by way of polarity if you remember....there is no meaning in our world in any way without polarity. That’s how we learn any meaning. This is what means creation and everything in it is RELATIVE.  There is no notion of day without the notion of night, no good/god without evil and so on... no pisces without virgo and vice-verse....

That’s how we subjective, relative souls learn....we learn via our subjectiveness and relatiaveness in order to be ever able to embrace the objectiveness and absolute of god itself....

Understanding the symbol means we understand the evolutionary lesson that lies wherein that symbol. And that symbol always includes a hidden arrow pointing to its polarity so then via continuously embracing that polarity --embracing ever GREATER LEVELS of what all that means, we grow.....

You see the symbol in itself is always whole and complete which includes a PERFECT BALANCE with its polarity. That‘s the simple secret that lies wherein the symbol. It is not the symbol it is OUR consciousness that doesn't know this and needs to learn....it is our consciousness that misses this balance and swings to one direction or another ignoring the wholeness that is present in that symbol....just as in creation ....so it’s not the symbol (nor creation or it‘s underlying laws or rules) what need to change it is just our consciousness with which we perceive it, interpret it and give meaning to it...

So within all that the simple rule of embracing the polarity as the way of ‘dharma’ conscious effort forward our own evolution never changes either....
What it means to us at any point of time and space reality with our evolving consciousness THAT changes and takes us endless WHOLE NEW levels...and we never ‘go back’ to the symbol where we are AT for we never ‘left’ and never will.....What we CAN do is just to EVOLVE that symbol in our consciousness by way of embracing it’s polarity in ever NEWER LEVELS.

Hope this makes sense?

Blessings,
Lia

Ps. for example Wolf has virgo lucifer in the 10th: he never left that symbol BUT EVOLVEs continuously.  he included the polarity pisces and SO diseminates in the widest possible sense (pisces) instead of denying it (virgo)  as somewhere in the past it was the case, now he is able to include it to his work  the knowledge he has relative to this symbol...so he actually serves others on a social level (10th) but this can not happen without embracing and conintuously doing so the polarity of it: pisces in the 4th! He has to emotionally BALANCE this continuously with the polarity point otherwise it will undermine him again and again.....so the traumatised emotional body needs to be dissolved and a new self image built by way of actually dissolving it in the love of god and establishing it’s emotional security from there.......it is an ONGOING process ...for him and for all of us.......so please be careful and don’t ever be fooled by your own lucifer placement it cannot be the bearer of light only in this way....via continuous effort to shed light on it by way of embracing the polarity in ever greater and broader ways .....which never ends as long as we live.....
Lucifer particularly exploits our mistakes and blinds us if we let it.....when we embrace the polarity into it  it‘s like sheding light into a darkest spot....but if we relax our effort it right away becomes a dark spot again....
« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2010, 05:10 PM by Lia » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 08, 2010, 03:52 PM »

Hi Ari,

 understand what your saying about Taurus- to me that is what femininity is all about.

Well I understand what you are saying 'to you' it appears so...but I'd like to ask you to please apply the EA correlation for we are not talking about what you believe (sorry!) we are talking about EA...and taurus has absolutely NOTHING to do with the correlation of the feminine according to EA.

Please read Pluto vol. 1 about the archetypes as what the 2nd house and taurus correlates to. Also read vol.2 about venus.

Please do so for these projections may lead you to misunderstand the chart...the yin energy what you feel actually comes from venus in pisces and has nothing to do with taurus in itself...it also comes from the CANCER 3rd cusp (cancer moon is what correlates to our feminine side and our emotional side which is also a yin energy of course) this 3rd cancer cusp creates a person who one the one hand interacts with it's immediate environment on an EMOTIONAL level and with the pisces venus it will certainly create an appearance (3rd house) of feminine-ness.....all this has nothing to do with taurus in itself...these are perceptions that you picked up from your friend...don't project this perception onto a symbol that has nothing to do with it....
Taurus in itself when it is out of balance can create such selfishness, greed etc. for example....WHEN IT IS OUT OF BALANCE....SO think about that and the fact that taurus will always be define in every chart by THE RULER VENUS....so we can not know anything about taurus in a chart until we haven't examined it's ruler....


So please go back to the EA correlations and make and attempt to correctly apply them.....

Blessings,
Lia
« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2010, 04:11 PM by Lia » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 08, 2010, 03:56 PM »

O, and one more thing: could you please supply the actual birth info for chart?
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Lesley
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 08, 2010, 05:02 PM »

Hi Lia,

I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts, I really do (and I know others do too). Smiley  But to be honest, you tend to lose me in your many words and long verbiage. I do get how passionately you feel about these concepts (and God bless you for it!), and I know you never mean to be off-putting or offensive in your fervor. But I feel like we would have to have a discussion in person for me to understand where you are coming from (and vice versa).

It is of course a back-and-forth thing, the natal placement and the polarity point. I just remember Wolf saying, "The natal placement never gets left behind," and I took your earlier comment literally:
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.IN ORDER TO GET THERE ONE NEEDS TO EMBRACE THE POLARITY of lucifer....just as with all othr symbols.....


All I was trying to add to the discussion was not to leave the natal placement behind. I did not mean to start a big huge debate that, if we were able to discuss this in person, would probably find us agreeing on the answer! Smiley 

Love and blessings to you,
Lesley
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Lia
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 08, 2010, 05:49 PM »

Hi Lesly,

Sorry for the many words:-) you are right about that also about the personal conversation which can clarify things easier....

In short, I certainly didn't mean to off putting YOU. Must say however I found the person's teaching astrology that you queted from (not Wolf!) mistaken in some aspects and because of that confusing people with certain misconcepts....
What you quoted from him, was (to me) one of the reflections of those misconcepts..... Like embracing something into something doesn't mean we leave that something into which we are embracing ...so that we need to 'come back to it'.......I remember one time he saying we need to 'come back' to our s.node later on in life for that's what's good for our evolution......

To me these are indeed illusions spread as trurths...and becasue of that it confuses people and basically becomes a mis-service  ......

Again, sorry if I expressed it in a way that you thought it has anything to do with you. Please know that I has absolutely nothing to do with you!

I am just expressing my view against a concept.......not against any person not even the one from whom the misconception came from.

love and blessings,
Lia


« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2010, 05:52 PM by Lia » Logged
Lesley
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 08, 2010, 06:26 PM »

Hi Lia! Smiley

I think I understand now...I totally get where you are coming from. Thank you so much for clarifying that. ♥

You remind me of the blessing that is this message board, and the free and open exchange it allows us to have.

Love and blessings to you, and to all,
Lesley
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ari moshe
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 08, 2010, 07:06 PM »

Quote
Hi Ari, Lia, Lesley and all ….

Just a few questions and comments, hoping it’s ok if I jump in …

This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??

That makes sense to me, however at her evolutionary state, I haven't observed her ever doubting her own beliefs, but the opposite- being really affirmed in them to the point of creating her own reality around them. I think you picked up on that astrologically as well...
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As an example, her father is of a mainstream christian religion and for some time has tried to get my friend to "change" and not be condemned to hell. So she's been in opposition to her culture about her natural knowing of things since she was a child. And of course how strongly this has effected her feeling of "not being seen" (father, 5th house). To affirm herself, her natural path has been to "create" something that reflects her own spirituality. I see that as Capricorn on the 9th with Saturn retro on the AC. She has been writing a book, and has taught classes about a path that she developed herself.

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…  Neptune in the 7th Sag would correlate to illusions/delusions about not only people in general being fair or good but also to the inherent and general goodness of manifested Creation  … wouldn’t the opposition of the Moon in the 1st Gemini correlate to experiences of disillusionment which have caused her to doubt of her instinctual/emotional response to experience, and (given the Moon’s rulership of the 3rd house Cáncer) this doubts permeating how she generally interprets phenomenal reality ? … this would suggests that she knows (SN ruler being in the 9th conjunct NN), but, though she knows, she still doubts, and somehow, perhaps at a mental level keeps thinking things may be one way or the other … thus needing to recreate experiences leading to establish what is actually real for her … and of course, to take emotion into the picture, ie. integrating her emotional response as necessary information in the process of establishing phenomenal reality … to think with her emotional body instead of suppressing emotion …. for instance, if she happens to feel fear, not to get scared but to think that her body is telling her that here may be something dangerous of what she needs to be aware …. also, to take note of what she doubts of instead of thinking that it doesn’t matter whether it is one way or the other, in order to elaborate what the emotional reasons for the doubts are …

So is that the reasoning for why some time ago, all of her friends and neighbors got together and "confronted her" for trying to leave a relationship that was VERY ABUSIVE? Everyone around her was distorted in thinking she should actually stay in the relationship. She finally had to realize that she was being overly trusting to everyone, and left that world behind. Is this cancer on the third (emotional reluctance to change one's surrounding) with moon in gemini conj saturn (disconnected from emotions instinct) opposing Neptune in sag in the 7th (everyone else's projections of who she is, what's best for her).

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… It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap) …. given that  Pluto rules the 7th where Neptune lies, and the sextile between Pluto and Neptune, keeping in mind that Pluto/Mars  are in full phase with Mars ruling her 12th … wouldn’t she feel easily drawn to compulsively keep on asserting herself in self-deluding relationships , as an unconscious means to create necessary confrontations with reality?? … given that the SN is in the 3rd the ruler being the Sun in the 9th and with Jupiter in the 8th Sag, she would be very emotionally invested in her beliefs … though, the inconjunct between Saturn/Jupiter suggests that she would  need to create experiences leading to crisis in order to reevaluate how she is interpreting reality about herself, others and life in general … in order to readjust these beliefs …  she would have been reluctant to do this because she has preferred to suppress or ignore her own doubts and just trust her strength to face whatever comes up and/or to change situations and people, as compensation of feelings of not being loved (Pluto 5th Libra, Venus  10th Pisces, Chiron in Aries opposing Pluto, Saturn Rx 1st …), this creating a superwoman type complex ??

pluto in libra in 5th ruling 7th house where neptune is, sextile neptune- are you saying a pattern of attracting relationships in which she can be honored and admired as a way of experiencing more control in her relationships? (also, whats the relevance of the mars pluto phase here?)

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… with Pluto in the 5th, it is clear that the Lucifer conjunction refers at this level the need to stop depending on others to confirm her specialness …. the NN ruler Uranus going back to the 5th indicating the intention to free herself of the need to be loved and reckoned by so many others, or the need to be so special to deserve being loved  … thus, accepting to be loved and acknowledged by the right people as an equal … this would in turn allow the conscious confirmation to be made that there are things good and things not so good, things she can bear and things she must avoid, instead of taking over herself the darkness of others as a means to be loved, though losing sight  of her own light in the way

… then, would the Neptune square to SN of Lucifer in the 4rd Leo correlate to how her emotional dependence on ego recognition (4th Leo) have prepared the ground for her delusions/illusions about others, about her need to heal others, potential disillusionments as to who she can and she cannot help, and further, about beliefs and interpretation of reality at a metaphysical level?

ah, that makes sense to me. And so are you saying, similar to the last point i commented on, that her patterns to "help others" (neptune in 7th) have been highly derived from her need to be special (sn lucifer in leo in 4th)? and that has lead her to be disillusioned about her own limitations and creating healthy boundaries (neptune in 7th) as to not just let anyone in who promised her glory (lucifer sn in leo 4th).

Thank you for the chance to participate in this thread, wishing to read your upcoming posts and answers on the subject.

I just want to say how nice it is to be reading someone's interpretation. I'm learning a lot bc you posted gonzalo and I look forward to hearing your responses.
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Lia, I did supply the birth data (on the chart image itself)... are you referring to something else?

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Well I understand what you are saying 'to you' it appears so...but I'd like to ask you to please apply the EA correlation for we are not talking about what you believe (sorry!) we are talking about EA...and taurus has absolutely NOTHING to do with the correlation of the feminine according to EA.

Please read Pluto vol. 1 about the archetypes as what the 2nd house and taurus correlates to. Also read vol.2 about venus.

Please do so for these projections may lead you to misunderstand the chart...the yin energy what you feel actually comes from venus in pisces and has nothing to do with taurus in itself...it also comes from the CANCER 3rd cusp (cancer moon is what correlates to our feminine side and our emotional side which is also a yin energy of course) this 3rd cancer cusp creates a person who one the one hand interacts with it's immediate environment on an EMOTIONAL level and with the pisces venus it will certainly create an appearance (3rd house) of feminine-ness.....all this has nothing to do with taurus in itself...these are perceptions that you picked up from your friend...don't project this perception onto a symbol that has nothing to do with it....
Taurus in itself when it is out of balance can create such selfishness, greed etc. for example....WHEN IT IS OUT OF BALANCE....SO think about that and the fact that taurus will always be define in every chart by THE RULER VENUS....so we can not know anything about taurus in a chart until we haven't examined it's ruler....

So please go back to the EA correlations and make and attempt to correctly apply them.....


I really appreciate the energy your putting into this, thank you. I care if I'm misapplying the information on the chart, as I am committed to learn the EA reasoning. However, defining a word is just a matter of linguistics. Is there anything I wrote that you find to be inaccurate as far as INTERPRETATION from an ea point of view goes?

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I understand what your saying about Taurus- to me that is what femininity is all about. In this case, I can see the illusions (12th house) have been based on a guilt that it was wrong for her to enjoy sensuality, and pleasure for her own self. I would still assess from this chart that this can be linked to previous lifetimes in which she was persecuted for how she related to her own values. I use femininity here as a way to describe the sensual survival nature of Taurus- simply enjoying her body and experiencing the love of it- from the point of view of being connected to her natural resources, and the ability to receive what is. Relative to Pluto and the nodes- there were past lives in which she was a preistess of sorts, leading orgies or things like that (5th house pluto sextile neptune in 7th, south node in leo in the 3rd with sun in Aquarius- and also, the ruler of the nn of Lucifer which is conj the lunar north node in Leo in the 5th, opposing mars- both of which are semi/sesqui square the nodes for having "overdone" it in the past). Activities that were blissful and fun, but also naive in which she shared herself too openly with others, and irresponsible at times (venus in pisces, neptune in 7th opposing saturn) resulting in an attraction of souls that had negative intentions and being persecuted by social figures. Is this false?? If so, why?

The Pallas athene here seems to imply a pattern of self sacrifice (12th) that has developed as it relates to what makes her life worth living (taurus)- such that she developed an idealized concept of purity, and felt personal pleasure (Taurus) to be sinful. What she built (nn of lucifer in 10th) was alternative structures (aquarius in the 10th) that allowed for quiet and meditation (taurus in the 12th). The skipped step here i believe is in having believed that the body, or personal riches leads to sin- while at some point she was on the opposite end, over doing pleasure in a way that wasn't responsible or ethical.

And the intent of Taurus is to be connected to LIFE. To be "in the body". So she's been struggling to find a balance between her personal resources and TRUTH.

This Pallas athene is ruled by Venus in Pisces in the 10th which is conjunct Vesta- showing that she has set herself up in society, and committed herself to be a "savior" so to speak. She has been devoted to direct her personal resources towards the public in such a way as to create something that can be beneficial for the masses. Her sense of self worth has been linked to becoming someone, or building something tangible and helpful in the world. Thus having created relationships with other people (venus in pisces square neptune in 7th) who she thought she was helping, but was really affirming her own sense of self worth (neptune square sn of Lucifer in Leo in 4th)

I feel like I'm creating a very specific story with all this information, and I'd love to know if I'm totally missing the boat... Thank you everyone again for just being here
« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2010, 08:53 PM by ari moshe » Logged
Lucius
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 08, 2010, 07:17 PM »

Lesley & Lia, if I may add a thought - I, too, Lesley got the general idea that Lia expressed.  And I think what she is saying & at any rate what I am saying is that no planet in our chart is finally 'resolved' the symbols are rather evolved.  Lucifer's placement will be a lifetime evolution as all the other symbols in the chart. 

Also, with Lucifer it itself is a double-edged sword, an innate duality.  That is represented by the symbol itself and the polarity is helpful in evolving that symbol.

Example - Lucifer in Cancer - influenced by evil it would correlate with a lack of emotional security leading to all types of behaviors to fill the emotional need, being emotionally overwhelmed, isolating one's self because of sensitivity, allowing masochistic behaviors, passive-aggressive, etc.  Bearer of Light would be emotional empathy and depth, nurturing without expectation, and deep recognition that security is accepting the relativity of the ego - and that the ego's 'home' is Spirit.

Capricorn polarity helps in creating responibility for emotions and responsibilty for actions within the world or withholding that action and to apply proper judgment to one's self and actions.  I think the point is that these issues are not resolved but ever present but within a spectrum dependent upon one's evolution.

Anyway - I think that's a shorter version of what Lia said...or part of what she said! 
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