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Lucius
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 08, 2010, 07:34 PM »

Ari Moshe - I don't think wanting to be fully in 'life' and in her body is specific to the archetype of Taurus.  I think this gal is dealing with a couple of millenia of unnatural law and the increasing 'split' of mind/body and the whole 'transcendent' philosophy.  Most women who have any consciousness are trying to overcome the subconscious assumptions of the 'dirtiness' or their bodies, their natural wisdom, etc. etc. If this woman has a strong 'feminine' vibe having the moon rising & venus in pisces in the 10 ties into that, as well as elucidating her issues to begin with (looking at that Saturn/Moon rising, not to mention an 11th Mars in aries!).

I think the whole fifth/ninth connection SN NN Sun & Pluto/Lucifer shows a dynamic where she needs to correct a narcisstic viewpoint - first to stand firm in her beliefs, but to recognize it's ultimately relative and to beware of inflation of her sense of destiny or responsibility - if she does have a gift it needs to be expressed carefully with full recognition that it is Spirit and not her ego she works for.  

Just my thoughts, hope it helps.
« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2010, 07:35 PM by Lucius » Logged
Gonzalo
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 08, 2010, 08:31 PM »

Hi Ari,

Thank you for your feedback, and I a glad this story is getting much clearer ...

Yes, I agree with you that she must have quite a lot of knowledge and certainty gained through direct experience and from her spiritual studies … however, i have the feeling that the issue of evil is very difficult to really understand … mostly because from the point of view of consensus the knowledge about evil has been either distorted, ridiculized  and/or suppressed, this suppression being also present at the individuated level of knowledge … a banalization of evil which considers it to be a merely human phenomenon (just as it has happened with God itself ... ) …  I think one should be aware of this as many many people who hear any of us talking about evil will think we are preaching, and/or that we are crazy (paranoids) –at least that’s the way it is here in Chile (something I can tell by my own experience, and not only with people at consensus) … remember the story Jeffrey tells about Kriyananda who despite being a very evolved Soul did not believe that evil was a supernatural reality, and how he needed to get that reality proven …  or even how Jeffrey himself underwent intense and very ugly experiences to get to acknowledge the nature of that energy, experiences which have led to all this reflection and teaching thereof …  and it is necessary to remember that very very evolved beings have experienced crisis in their beliefs, just like “the great one called Jesus “ or Francis of Assis have … 

… wouldn’t the purpose involved in her Mount Shasta experience be indicated by the Mercury transit, relative to the natal signature of Mercury ?

“pluto in libra in 5th ruling 7th house where neptune is, sextile neptune- are you saying a pattern of attracting relationships in which she can be honored and admired as a way of experiencing more control in her relationships? (also, whats the relevance of the mars pluto phase here?)”

I wouldn’t say to gain more control … at least it wouldn’t operate that way at her stage of evolution … I would rather say perhaps a need to be loved for who she is, but also by others who cannot understand who she is, this perhaps leading her to minimize her awareness of the discrepancy existing between who she really is and what others are perceiving … the sextile aspect between Pluto and Neptune requires withdrawal and self-contemplation …. Though Pluto in the 5th Libra and Neptune placed in the 7th would tend to operate more externally, towards others … the opposition aspect between Mars and Pluto requires learning balance between withdrawal and willful assertion … further, it is most likely given her EC and the chart signature that she was born with unresolved trauma …. and there are indicators of trauma linked with confrontations with others affecting her though process and belief structure … Uranus opposes Mars (in the 11th ) and both make a T- square to Mercury in the 9th … Uranus semisquares the 7th house Neptune in Sag … the Sun ruling the 3rd house SN conjuncts the NN, ie. the intent to recreate these trauma for resolution and release …
 

“And so are you saying, similar to the last point i commented on, that her patterns to "help others" (neptune in 7th) have been highly derived from her need to be special (sn lucifer in leo in 4th)? and that has lead her to be disillusioned about her own limitations and creating healthy boundaries (neptune in 7th) as to not just let anyone in who promised her glory (lucifer sn in leo 4th)”.


… and perhaps an unfulfilled need to be taken care of and emotionally nurtured as she specifically needed creating displaced emotions projected via expectation towards others …  creating an intensified emotional response ... Moon 1st house opposition Neptune 7th House … given the consensus parents, wouldn´t that be most likely ?


God Bless,

Gonzalo.
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Lia
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 08, 2010, 08:47 PM »

Hi Gonzalo and all,

You have some very good insights on this chart.
I’d like to add a few things to think about:

It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap)

What I would suggest to consider is the fact that the 5th house cusp is actually virgo.. Therefore the underlying intention via self actualization for the soul was/is to serve others in some ways. If we look at the ruler mercury is 9th in capr. Capr amongst other things is about responsibility and our ability to consider a social whole. So if we look at capr. in the 9th house and connect mercury from there; natural law, intuitive faculty via which the person perceives or trying to perceive what is true and that is connected/based on a natural (9th house) social awareness and a sense of responsibility towards that social whole.....so that defines the nature of the thoughts the person has and this is what’s ruling the 5th house within which we then find libra pluto conj. lucifer. The person’s intrinsic  need for positive feedback is connected to a need to be needed (libra) and a need to serve as the way of self actualization.

What and how can lucifer distort here? Of course it is very important to look at ruler venus in the 10th in pisces. Obviously there are some kind of illusions here. 10th house cusp is aq.....what is the person’s perception about society and people in general? Of course you are right, neptune (as ruler of venus) in the 7th house correlates to having illusions about other people.
However here too we need to consider the house cusp of the 7th which is actually scorpio, ruled by 5th house pluto which is conj. lucifer.

So the ways the person created relationships are based on the plutonian impulse which here is defined by libra and 5th house...what will bring the positive feedback that the soul was hungry for and what happened here with lucifer conj. pluto? What could be exploited/distorted here?

Was the soul heavily relying on social feedback? On how others expressed what they think about and what they need from the soul and was that based on some heavy duty  illusion?

How the soul operated the pluto impulse by way of the s.node? Which is leo in the 3rd.Cusp is cancer. Was the soul giving in to the immediate environment and accepted intellectual knowledge of some sort of logic/study as the truth by way of social expectation and it’s own need to be recognised and accepted as a ‘good’ person who provides a ‘good service’ for others relative to what they said they need? Was the person experiencing illusions and believed in something which wasn’t real just to experience disillusionment and despair at the end? (neptune in 7th in sag ruling the 10th venus) How much it’s own need for positive recognition was a part of this disillusionment?

How the person’s sense of truth (neptune in sag and 9th house capr. cusp plus jupiter is ‘hidden’ in the 8th house) has been influenced by certain illusions, and certain security needs of its own? (the symbol in our 8th house ‘destined’ to go through intense evolution as well as any scorpio planets) The soul’s intention and motivations reflect in pluto, scorpio and the 8th house. We have a sag 8th house here jupiter in it: the soul desires to evolve it’s sense of truth so it desires (with jup in the 8th) to merge with the symbols of truth...

Then the ruler of the s.node is on the n.node! So on the one hand the life is a repetition in a sense and yet the aim is to repeat it in a totally new way. Instead of relying on the feedback of others and identify it’s individuality according to that the lesson is to become truly liberated from all that stuff and dare to be who and how she really is....to express it’s individuality according to it’s essential nature independent if others like it and give positive feedback or not....

In the past the soul’s original intentions has been undermined by evil many many times....by way of giving in to others, by way of adjusting to their ways because of the plutonian fears and insecurity andneed of recogniton...........

Mercury in the 9th also symbolise the CHANGING views as what is or what isn’t true....trying to left brain understand what is a right brain process....even perhaps convincing  oneself that someting is right...so there has been certainly changes in what he soul considered was true...and there is some guilt about it!

All this essentially came out of the way of thinking the way of social awareness and responsibility that the soul felt towards others....this then affected the soul perception of reality and how it structured it’s reality.....


Putting others on a pedestal projecting ideals and illusions onto them (as you said it rightly) affected how it perceived others and what they needed or expected from the soul.

There have been already attempts to sort this out (sun on n.node=it’s not the first life the soul tries to accomplish it’s evolutionary lesson but there is still work to be done) So as to be able to be a ’group of one’ if necessary and act accordingly what it perceives is objectively true even if that results in isolation. (aq. n.node AND in the 9th house!)

The soul desires to actualise it’s essential individuality which has been undermined in the past by evil via the ways the soul generally related to others and society itself....There has been a great deal of religious teachings that affected this perception.....behind it all there was a compulsive need to be needed and the need for positive feedback ..even for the cost of the soul inner sense of truth......so for that there is a guilt inwardly for forsaking the truth and giving in to social and religious expectations placing an absolute value onto OTHERS and their idealised reality and feedback (neptune in 7th in sag plus the compulsion of pluto in libra in 5th) believing that was the truth and that was what ’god wanted’ from the soul....

So the service the soul has given by way of fulfilling these obligations/ expectations in order to have the positive feedback backfired and such created traumas (mercury square to uranus in 5th and uranus is the ruler of the sun which is the ruler of the s.node) so that the whole 5th house (subjective reality centre from where the self actualization was attempted in this way) have been blown to pieces many times....the soul finding itself totally disconnected, shocked and traumatized.....

 ...uranus is new phase to pluto: trauma leads to liberation by way of exploding all that which we know and familiar with and bringing in what the soul didn’t know and  never expected. The traumas were received by the very people the soul loved and attempted to give to......of course this giving was defined by the soul’s subjective perception of what they need.....

6th cusp is libra: the underlying lesson for self improvement lies within the outer side of venus: the soul needs to improve its perception of other people‘s actual reality, relativity and objectivity along with equality and the right way giving....giving according to other‘s actual reality and not what the soul thinks they need.....

==This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??==


There is a new chapter started about defining reality AND responsibility in brand new ways. Trial and error, as what is one's responsibility (one's job if we like to call it that way) and what is not....moon is also 1st hoiuse new conj. to saturn.... moon is in gemini a bran new way of constructing self image is also under way....

So there has been already a lot of culmination in the 12th....thats where the new beginnings come out of in essence....but taurus is still in the 12th so there still a lot of culmination needs to be completed during this life ....Ac is also taurus so some aspect of it already culminated and a new way of relating to oneself can evolve in this life....removing the illusions regarding others what they mean to a soul will result in a new way of the inner relationship to oneself and necessarily so....The illusion is twofold: one side is to remove any personal identification with the divine so to speak...to arrive to equaltiy and objectivity...so not to place more importance to one's life and one's ability to give to others or being the 'special one' etc. than one actually is...just one out of many totally equal to others...the other side is to remove the guilt that affected the soul and distorted it's perception of reality...capr. on the 9th mercury there....

prior to the current life the soul have gone through traumas that thrown the soul back to its' natural self (aq. sun on n.node) but the soul experienced this as total trauma at first...yet it is attempting to induce honesty towards oneself even at the cost of trauma....for at the end the true individuality of the soul is worthwhile and it needs to find the courage to utilise this (taurus) and actualise it sun according to how it really is....

Moon opp. to jup: the emotional body doesn’t settle anymore with the old notion of what is true, it now became aware that there is another side of the thing emotionally as well..... In the past there was a belief that those it merged with were representing the truth.....yet the selection of the 8th house is based on teh 7th of course...and neptune there caused the illusion....

There is a true and honest desire in the soul to find the truth and to embrace the whole truth ...(neptune in sag ruled by jup in sag from 8th) ...but the problem with neptnne is that the soul 'feels' this is the highest value and it perceives it as if it was already a reality.....yet it is not.....it's an ideal projected onto reality.......

If we understand the sun in aq. in 9th as the ruler of the leo s.node we can see where it actually lead ....uranus ruling the sun of course: so instead of having the positive outcome and feedback what happened? Was the soul not isolated and ‘cast out’ at the end by the very people it thought it served and they needed her?

Did the soul actually perceie the actual realitiy of others did it not make wrong choices based on illusions as what people and what groups etc. to belong to? (uranus in libra in 5th, and libra is actually the 6th cusp; essential self improvement lesson is nothing else but libra. The soul needs to work on the very libra lesson in order to improve itself, all aspects of it, i.e. relativity, equality, giving according to what others actually need vs. what the soul may think or believe they need, fairness based on equalty, becoming aware where others are really coming from instead of projecting onto them either positive or negative ways or both...and so on....)


Cont. later:-)



L
« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2010, 09:32 PM by Lia » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 08, 2010, 09:28 PM »

thanks for your thoughts lucius- it does help.
how then would you interpret the pallas in taurus in the 12th square the nn of lucifer?
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ari moshe
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 08, 2010, 10:10 PM »

Gonzalo,

“And so are you saying, similar to the last point i commented on, that her patterns to "help others" (neptune in 7th) have been highly derived from her need to be special (sn lucifer in leo in 4th)? and that has lead her to be disillusioned about her own limitations and creating healthy boundaries (neptune in 7th) as to not just let anyone in who promised her glory (lucifer sn in leo 4th)”.

… and perhaps an unfulfilled need to be taken care of and emotionally nurtured as she specifically needed creating displaced emotions projected via expectation towards others …  creating an intensified emotional response ... Moon 1st house opposition Neptune 7th House … given the consensus parents, wouldn´t that be most likely ?

That's really interesting. Her current living situation is really revealing to how she has chosen to resolve that.
She's living with her partner on the same property as her in-laws. This seems like an expression of lucifer sn in leo in the 4th, squaring that neptune, and ruled by the sun (being who she is- nn aquarius) which rules the south node in the 3rd house for inlaws (which is a challenge to being who she is). Her need to be taken care of and be nurtured in a safe and healthy way could only be accessed by developing her relationship in the context of a home that supports who she is on a spiritual level (resolving the sn lucifer leo 4th house square to neptune).

I don't know too much about her past relationships- but I know there has always been a challenging environment of people around it (3rd house) that sought to disqualify who she actually was.

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Lia
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 09, 2010, 09:19 AM »

Hi Ari and All,

First sorry I haven't noticed the birth data because in order to view the chart I had to scroll to the side and from there the data is not visible:-)

Anyhow, I wanted to add about lucifer s.node squared by neptune typically points out the ways how evil actually connected to our illusions and how it undermines even one's highest ideals when we buy into illusions....
Interaction with others has been extremely important for the soul (emotional security is based on the immediate environment and teh emotional feedback from others; 3rd cancer cusp this is where emotional security is based on, how the soul THINKS via a left brain process was the base of this security...family members, immediate friends etc. ....
The soul's subjective reality and it's attempt to actualise itself within the immediate environment has been affected distorted by evil and the way it happened was distorting the soul natural weakness (lucifer s.node) of wanting to be loved, accepted recognised etc. by this immediate environment....
The soul was hiding and disconnecting from it's actual natural self (aq. sun in 9th) and because of the emotional security needs (mercury also rules moon the ruler of the 3rd cusp) and adjusted to concepts and philosophies/religions etc. that were socially accepted as truths....

which resulted in ever more disconnecting from it's actual natural self .(aq sun and n.node) ...in this way the soul traumatised not just itself but other people via the way it lived it's life (sun in aq. in 9th ruler of s.node of lucifer) ..the trauma happened in a way that the soul DIDN'T EVEN KNOW because it was so disconnected from the actual objective truth at that time.....aq. 10th house cusp ruled by 5th uranus.....the disconnection from the actual SOCIAL REALITY and then we found venus in pisces in 10th....so what the soul thought was doing and who it was in a social picture and what the actual reality was has been mixed with evil's influence and it was based on incredibly confused perception, illusions and  delusions.....

This chart is actually a good example how our tendency for illusions can lead to being totally fooled by evil and exploit even the best intentions if we don't check reality....how a soul can be literally fragmented (aq) and totally confused with delusions (venus in pisces) about itself and others.....what needs to happen is THOROUGH DISCRIMINATION sorting out what the soul's actual reality is (polarity of neptune) looking at it with an objective mind which can question EVERYTHING but EVERYTHING the soul ever thought was true (sag neptune)

The n.node of lucifer conj. to n.node of the moon and sun points out the way of LIBERATION from it all...the soul has to BREAK FREE totally no matter what it takes be alone withdraw from any societal connection if that's what it takes and re-discover who it really is naturally and be truthful to IT'S ACTUAL INDIVIDUALITY....it has to objectify it's subjective reality and remove any remaining illusions, any compulsive need to be liked, to be accepted to be given positive feedback from those it placed it's emotional security in the past.....to see others objectively and see oneself objectively....

To ACCEPT the responsibility for its mistaken actions of the past and understand the fact that it's not that the soul's intention were wrong, but what it thought was real and according to that illusionary reality it acted......mars in aries in 11th....the soul's reality was limited (AC is taurus limitation not seeing the whole 'sky' just a segment from the proverbial 'well') and that was based of course on venus in pisces: illusions.  Mars opp. to uranus from 11th to 5th....the trauma is based on the soul's intention to wanting to bring liberation and good for all, at least for the community it lived in, but it was based on illusions: 11th house cusp is pisces ruled by venus...what the soul THOUGHT was true and serving some sort of divine goal actually traumatised people and the soul didn't know it.....so the very beliefs the soul had has resulted in traumas .....the house of trauma defined by the pisces cusp...ruled by neptune in the 7th what the soul thought was true and how it related to others based on these illusions.....
This then in return caused such trauma to the subjective reality too 5th house and blew it to pieces....
All is relates back to evil....how evil can turn reality upside down and create the very OPPOSITE then what one intended....mars opp. uranus extremely violent traumas and all that points back to aq. sun in the 9th as ruler of uranus, the objective reality at one point revealed itself about other people that the soul were enmeshed with ..... the soul thought these people were representing truth, god and all the rest and wanted to do what is best for the social whole according to 'god'....pisces venus....

Evil was taken in with open arms without knowing it ....if fed the soul's weakness for positive recognition and it lead the soul to disconnect from its inner sense of truth...

The n.node of lucifer is pointing out the need for ABSOLUTE objectivity...so by way of actualising the n.node and sun the soul can overcome the lucifer lesson as well...by way of paying very close inner attention of EVERY MOTIVATION AND INTENTION that the soul has and NEVER AGAIN buy into feedback based, social expectation based and above all recognition based motivations the polarity of natal lucifer is aries 11th house: defining it's own actual reality and based on that it's true intentions for equality and objectivity for the benefit of the whole with no regards if the immediate environment judges or her or not, needs her or not etc. so again be the group of one if needed and stop living a lie....

Learn to accept oneself just as is without any illusion (12th taurus, pisces venus) without any compensation (jup 8th house and neptune in sag) and learn to SEE AND HEAR others as they really are (polarity of venus is virgo, 6th house cusp is libra) so discrimination is a major lesson to learn...

In this way the soul can get liberated from evil as well and use it as a bearer of light...to grow and evolve to the state when the soul can actually help others too, to do the same....this can not happen as long as the pluto ppp.in 11th and n.node/sun lessons are not done....

 This chart to me is a very good example how evil can influence and totally FOOL any of us by way of illusions EVEN if we have good intentions...one doesn’t have to have fundamentally bad intention in order to be used and distorted by evil....

This is how pisces, neptune and the 12th house are related to evil for where we have illusions we give space for evil to tap in....

The cosmic ’maya’ the divine illusion of creation is not all wholly and good....we all have a god given higher ’value’ an unconscious ideal via which we try to find our ways back to home...that too is neptune, 12th house pisces.....yet this very symbol in itself has no discrimination it dissolves the boundaries between everything and within that between good and evil....indeed it all came from the same source...yet in our world as long as we haven‘t learned to discriminate (thus continuously embracing its polarity) as what is REALITY and what is only ideal and illusion/delusion we will find within this very symbol the most disillusioning experiences which can undermine even our faith in good/god.....what we value MOST on an unconscious level (neptune being the higher octave of venus!) can create for all of us the MOST painful experiences at one point of time after we BELIEVED  something was real it occurs to be a total illusion....so it just disappears and dissolves into nothingness.....

So the amazing value in the neptune/12 house/pisces archetype is that we can actually identify WHERE exactly can’t we see clearly the boundaries BETWEEN EVIL AND GOD/ESS....how exactly we create illusions and delusions and why....WHAT exactly we value unconsciously so highly that we simply unable to discriminate between reality and our own ideals projected onto reality and believing it is ’real’........the NATURE of our particular ways of creating illusions will always invisibly connected to our natal placement of lucifer....pointing to our weakest point....Why it is related? Simply because of the nature of evil...not being seen not being noticed...where we have LEAST discrimination that’s the best entrance for evil....
As strange as it may sound it is exactly where from this influence can then find ways of affecting our subjective consciousness and settle in then in the whatever weakest point we have...that‘s lucifer‘s natal placement.....
Yet the more we remove our own illusions and learn to deal with the whatever ACTUAL REALITY  we have (by way of applying discrimination so via the polarity point of neptune) we will strengthen our overall ability to identify and eliminate evil as well.....to actually use it for it’s adversary and evolve it to be the bearer of light.....


Hope this helps?


Blessings,
Lia


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Rad
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 09, 2010, 11:30 AM »

Really love seeing this kind of interaction among the members here. Just GREAT !!

Rad
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Lucius
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 09, 2010, 08:01 PM »

I'll put a couple more pennies into the cup here although others are using much more energy, thought & time.  So, with the Pallas, 12th, Taurus and Venus 10th, pisces I think we see clearly the issues of her innate sense of spirit & self & values and those of the patriarchy & general consensus conditioning and her desire to get back to her own root and from there Spirit.  I do see that she may have done what she needed or thought she needed to do to survive - she danced to a tune, someone else's, so to speak - she can be very good at filling other's projections & expectations...I see someone who could be a the 'darling' and invested herself emotionally in that although she was conscious of a lie.  This, I think, ties into the myth of Pallas - she sprung from her father's head!  She  is in cahoots with the masculine - which, of course, isn't necessarily negative at all, but I see this tying into surviving and adapting via playing a certain type of patriarchal-sanctioned role that was false to her inner truth.  So, that's what I'd say to that. 
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ari moshe
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 09, 2010, 09:42 PM »

Hi Lia, Im sitting with your interpretation. i'm going to re-write some of what you wrote/ask q's for the sake of deepening my understanding/making sure i understand. Thank you for such a contribution.

Hi Gonzalo and all,

You have some very good insights on this chart.
I’d like to add a few things to think about:

It is clear already that she has been very dependent on having others confirming her strong egocentric orientation (Pluto in the 5th, SN in Leo) …. and it is also clear that she has tried to obtain confirmation at ego level from others who, given their own evolutionary condition, do not believe what she believes or knows (Pluto ruler being Venus in the 10th Pisces … 2nd and 5th house ruler being Mercury in the 9th Cap)

What I would suggest to consider is the fact that the 5th house cusp is actually virgo.. Therefore the underlying intention via self actualization for the soul was/is to serve others in some ways. If we look at the ruler mercury is 9th in capr. Capr amongst other things is about responsibility and our ability to consider a social whole. So if we look at capr. in the 9th house and connect mercury from there; natural law, intuitive faculty via which the person perceives or trying to perceive what is true and that is connected/based on a natural (9th house) social awareness and a sense of responsibility towards that social whole.....so that defines the nature of the thoughts the person has and this is what’s ruling the 5th house within which we then find libra pluto conj. lucifer. The person’s intrinsic  need for positive feedback is connected to a need to be needed (libra) and a need to serve as the way of self actualization.

So if I understand this correctly. Virgo being on the cusp of her fifth house- the ruler of which will DEFINE for us how she has sought to impact a special purpose, and also how the issues of natal pluto lucifer were experienced. The underlying approach was one of service, which was done through TEACHING. In this case it is mercury in capricorn in the 9th= social contribution relative to her own personal discovery of natural law. And so the need to be liked and appreciated was linked to how socially credible and responsible she was as a teacher.


What and how can lucifer distort here? Of course it is very important to look at ruler venus in the 10th in pisces. Obviously there are some kind of illusions here. 10th house cusp is aq.....what is the person’s perception about society and people in general? Of course you are right, neptune (as ruler of venus) in the 7th house correlates to having illusions about other people.
However here too we need to consider the house cusp of the 7th which is actually scorpio, ruled by 5th house pluto which is conj. lucifer.

So the ways the person created relationships are based on the plutonian impulse which here is defined by libra and 5th house...what will bring the positive feedback that the soul was hungry for and what happened here with lucifer conj. pluto? What could be exploited/distorted here?

Was the soul heavily relying on social feedback? On how others expressed what they think about and what they need from the soul and was that based on some heavy duty  illusion?

so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th, conj lucifer which itself is ruled by mercury in cap in the 9th- can we then conclude that she her patterns has been to "help" people on a "professional" level by being a mentor- offering guidance and counsel to others as a way to be respected- and thus to fulfill the desire nature to be liked? would it make sense to say that she would create an IMMENSE degree of popularity for herself as a result of this pattern?

How the soul operated the pluto impulse by way of the s.node? Which is leo in the 3rd.Cusp is cancer. Was the soul giving in to the immediate environment and accepted intellectual knowledge of some sort of logic/study as the truth by way of social expectation and it’s own need to be recognised and accepted as a ‘good’ person who provides a ‘good service’ for others relative to what they said they need? Was the person experiencing illusions and believed in something which wasn’t real just to experience disillusionment and despair at the end? (neptune in 7th in sag ruling the 10th venus) How much it’s own need for positive recognition was a part of this disillusionment?

How the person’s sense of truth (neptune in sag and 9th house capr. cusp plus jupiter is ‘hidden’ in the 8th house) has been influenced by certain illusions, and certain security needs of its own? (the symbol in our 8th house ‘destined’ to go through intense evolution as well as any scorpio planets) The soul’s intention and motivations reflect in pluto, scorpio and the 8th house. We have a sag 8th house here jupiter in it: the soul desires to evolve it’s sense of truth so it desires (with jup in the 8th) to merge with the symbols of truth...

Then the ruler of the s.node is on the n.node! So on the one hand the life is a repetition in a sense and yet the aim is to repeat it in a totally new way. Instead of relying on the feedback of others and identify it’s individuality according to that the lesson is to become truly liberated from all that stuff and dare to be who and how she really is....to express it’s individuality according to it’s essential nature independent if others like it and give positive feedback or not....

In the past the soul’s original intentions has been undermined by evil many many times....by way of giving in to others, by way of adjusting to their ways because of the plutonian fears and insecurity andneed of recogniton...........

Mercury in the 9th also symbolise the CHANGING views as what is or what isn’t true....trying to left brain understand what is a right brain process....even perhaps convincing  oneself that someting is right...so there has been certainly changes in what he soul considered was true...and there is some guilt about it!


All this essentially came out of the way of thinking the way of social awareness and responsibility that the soul felt towards others....this then affected the soul perception of reality and how it structured it’s reality.....

I see that you address this in the next paragraph- re: religious guilt. also, is that at all connected to natal mercury semi square neptune?

Putting others on a pedestal projecting ideals and illusions onto them (as you said it rightly) affected how it perceived others and what they needed or expected from the soul.

There have been already attempts to sort this out (sun on n.node=it’s not the first life the soul tries to accomplish it’s evolutionary lesson but there is still work to be done) So as to be able to be a ’group of one’ if necessary and act accordingly what it perceives is objectively true even if that results in isolation. (aq. n.node AND in the 9th house!)

The soul desires to actualise it’s essential individuality which has been undermined in the past by evil via the ways the soul generally related to others and society itself....There has been a great deal of religious teachings that affected this perception.....behind it all there was a compulsive need to be needed and the need for positive feedback ..even for the cost of the soul inner sense of truth......so for that there is a guilt inwardly for forsaking the truth and giving in to social and religious expectations placing an absolute value onto OTHERS and their idealised reality and feedback (neptune in 7th in sag plus the compulsion of pluto in libra in 5th) believing that was the truth and that was what ’god wanted’ from the soul....


So the service the soul has given by way of fulfilling these obligations/ expectations in order to have the positive feedback backfired and such created traumas (mercury square to uranus in 5th and uranus is the ruler of the sun which is the ruler of the s.node) so that the whole 5th house (subjective reality centre from where the self actualization was attempted in this way) have been blown to pieces many times....the soul finding itself totally disconnected, shocked and traumatized.....

i think i understand this. her mercury, which we established has been crucial in how she served as a teacher mentor in society (cap in the 9th), and thusly gained respect (ruler of 5th house pluto lucifer conjunction in libra- influence by evil via the need to be liked), squaring uranus which is also in the 5th indicates that at some point the attempt to "cover up" her uniqueness and please anyone backfired- as certain individuals felt who she was to be wrong. they thus persecuted her for who she was. this was very much a trauma for her. Is this correct?


 ...uranus is new phase to pluto: trauma leads to liberation by way of exploding all that which we know and familiar with and bringing in what the soul didn’t know and  never expected. The traumas were received by the very people the soul loved and attempted to give to......of course this giving was defined by the soul’s subjective perception of what they need.....

the trauma being received by the people she was trying to give love to- how is that indicated in the chart? Is it at all connected to Pluto ruling 7th house cusp- and the pluto uranus phase? If so, I dont get how that works.

6th cusp is libra: the underlying lesson for self improvement lies within the outer side of venus: the soul needs to improve its perception of other people‘s actual reality, relativity and objectivity along with equality and the right way giving....giving according to other‘s actual reality and not what the soul thinks they need.....

==This woman has Saturn in 1st house Saturn Rx ruling 9th House … wouldn’t this correlate to a structure of consciousness that needs to be free to create all type of experiences in order to establish what is true and real for her ? …. A Soul that from time to time doubts of her own experiences and beliefs, as a consequence of pressure to conform she has received from mainstream thought ??==


There is a new chapter started about defining reality AND responsibility in brand new ways. Trial and error, as what is one's responsibility (one's job if we like to call it that way) and what is not....moon is also 1st hoiuse new conj. to saturn.... moon is in gemini a bran new way of constructing self image is also under way....

Saturn retro on the ac, in the context of saturn ruling the mercury in capricorn: can we understand the retrogradation of Saturn here to imply that she "tried too hard" in the past to gain social acceptance? And as a result, there is a pressure in her soul in this life to internalize her social purpose and direction, and overcome social opposition to really be who she is in the context of the path she is stabilizing for herself (saturn in taurus in 1st). saturn retro also points the way to uranus...


So there has been already a lot of culmination in the 12th....thats where the new beginnings come out of in essence....but taurus is still in the 12th so there still a lot of culmination needs to be completed during this life ....Ac is also taurus so some aspect of it already culminated and a new way of relating to oneself can evolve in this life....removing the illusions regarding others what they mean to a soul will result in a new way of the inner relationship to oneself and necessarily so....

bc venus is the ruler of taurus, which is in pisces- square neptuen in 7th?

The illusion is twofold: one side is to remove any personal identification with the divine so to speak...to arrive to equaltiy and objectivity...so not to place more importance to one's life and one's ability to give to others or being the 'special one' etc. than one actually is...just one out of many totally equal to others...the other side is to remove the guilt that affected the soul and distorted it's perception of reality...capr. on the 9th mercury there....
« Last Edit: Jan 09, 2010, 09:47 PM by ari moshe » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 10, 2010, 05:19 AM »



I tried to insert the chart from astrodients but doesn't seem to work....here is the address with the important asteroids that I talk about below:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=3edfileWRIC6d-u1003984635&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=310&nho2=302&btyp=24&mth=gw&sday=9&smon=1&syr=2010&hsy=6&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&add=18&add=19&add=20&add=22&add=12&add=13&add=14&add=15&asp=1&ast=1930%2C55%2C30%2C1181



Hi Ari and All,


a few things I wanted to add for consideration; pallas in 12th is conj to urania (which has a somewhat similar nature to uranus in way of LIBERATION from something but without the highly traumatising factor of uranus) so urania is 22 taurus 38, meaning pallas is balsamic conj. to it...what may this configuration suggest? Given the fact that it is 12th house (some illusions) and ruled by 10th pisces venus? (more illusions) Also given the fact that pallas correlates to mental virtue ..an aspect of the feminine that according to the myth ‘jumped out in full armour from zeus’ head’....
pallas as such is an aspect of the femine that is ALREADY influenced by a patriachal order....

About the feminine issues it is Lilith (asteroid) which signifies in any chart the original NATURE of the soul's feminine principle; this falls to 9 sag 31 so it is alas it is conj. to neptune!...so that’s where the problem actually started....
It is a new conj. in the chart so the soul has come through a tremendous culmination and attempting to start a new chapter in this regard....

In short this symbol, asteroid Lilith correlates to the soul's original feminine principle BEFORE the patriarchal distortion started on our world....it also signifies how the soul reacted to this transition at the first place! (simply because the underlying issue about the transition is putting the feminine aspect down as inferior, so it has been cast out of equality)....it doesn't matter which gender we are manifesting through in any life we all have feminine and masculine aspects within ...so how the soul reacted to the transition relative to its own feminine aspect tells the story about that particular soul during the transition time....and what we see here? This symbol is conj. to neptune.....so I leave it to you guys to work this out what may happened here lilith conj. neptune in 7th in sag.....what kind of beliefs, illusions and delusions may be a part of this pic?? That’ was the beginning....


Now after this there is the absolute distortion periods of the patriarchy on planet earth for many thousands of years....what happened is that with no exception all souls got wounded, distorted and confused in some ways....what this caused to our feminine principle is symbolised by a second lilith symbol called the ‘dark moon’ or ’dark moon lilith’  symbol....it is debated where this actually falls in the chart there are at least two different sets of ephemeries.....right now I wouldn't even want to pay much attention to that for what it represents is the PEAK of the distortion relative to our femine principle relative to patriarchy..(it actually falls to 5th, virgo..so the very service the soul felt it was it's destiny to fulfil) .....however the truth is that this distortion hasn’t only affected out feminine principle it affected our souls in all aspects...so actually the WHOLE chart is the reflection of that......for each one of us....what's important in this respect is the third symbol of Lilith, which is the Black Moon Lilith.....for that is the RESOLUTION symbol of our own femine principle....how we can recover from the distortion of and heal the feminine principle within us......in this chart this symbol falls in  26 libra 43, so right on the 6th house cusp!


Highlighting and putting what I already said about the 6th house libra lessons into a deeper and more crucial evolutionary context....for the soul to HEAL it's own feminine aspect the lesson of discrimination is of utmost importance; in this respect it has to do with learning TRUE equality and relativity being able to perceive other people's reality as it really is and  according to that (via a thorough analysis of who comes from what ACTUAL reality!) learning to improve the soul’s own ways of RELATING to others....one of the issue with libra 6th house is that certain relationships have been denied avoided...particularly those that DIDN’’T SERVE the whatever illusions that the soul had .....SO INSTEAD OF RELATING TO ALL IN AN EQUAL LEVEL those that were selected out (7th cusp is scorpio, selection according to one’s unconscious motivations and intentions by way of the natal pluto- impulse so repulsion from those who doesn’t serve the unconscious pluto security needs....and it is exactly THIS selection process how lucifer affected this soul) were the ones that appeared to serve the soul’s needs and all the illusions were projected onto them....yet in fact most of them actually undermined the soul....without the soul knowing it...7th neptune in sag....
We need to remember that the 7th house as well as the 3rd has a lot to do with APPEARENCE....

There is another important thing we havent discussed yet: vesta conj. to venus in pisces...the kind of social role the soul played under total illusions....it has to do with another aspect of leo/5th house: the soul's CHILDREN...guess who wer the first who undermind, deluded and betrayed the soul at the first place?  her own children particularly her sons...who took over during the patriarcy and made her believe she was serving the 'right' purpose..the divine purpose.....vesta has to do with the sexual initiation of young males including one's own sons.....so that's how evil 'got in' at the first place....of course the soul loved them and believed them....it would be a long long story to reveal the whole evolutionary process of this soul but I think this bit wil shed light to the most important elements....how it started and what contributed to the totally illusionary reality and the incrdible traumas it lead to...uranus in 5th complete and absoute heartbreak via the people the soul loved most............

So in short there is a need to sort all this out and to heal from it all and that is the overall evolutionary task - within which there is the task to heal and recover it's true femine principle.....

Hope this adds to the understanding of this chart ?

Blessings,
Lia

« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2010, 09:06 AM by Lia » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 10, 2010, 06:09 AM »

Hi Lucius,

Wanted to say you have some real good insights!
Thanks very much for your contribution; don't worry if it is short or long (that just depends on our 3rd house, how it will 'appear') the content you put in is very worthwhile. So keep on going!


Blessings,
Lia
« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2010, 06:11 AM by Lia » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 10, 2010, 08:39 AM »

Hi Ari,

Great to see that you'd put a good effort into understanding this chart!
Good work - I will come back to your specific questions a bit later I have to do something else now; but will come back and answer in details.


Blessings,
Lia
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ari moshe
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 10, 2010, 07:06 PM »

Quote
I'll put a couple more pennies into the cup here although others are using much more energy, thought & time.  So, with the Pallas, 12th, Taurus and Venus 10th, pisces I think we see clearly the issues of her innate sense of spirit & self & values and those of the patriarchy & general consensus conditioning and her desire to get back to her own root and from there Spirit.  I do see that she may have done what she needed or thought she needed to do to survive - she danced to a tune, someone else's, so to speak - she can be very good at filling other's projections & expectations...I see someone who could be a the 'darling' and invested herself emotionally in that although she was conscious of a lie.  This, I think, ties into the myth of Pallas - she sprung from her father's head!  She  is in cahoots with the masculine - which, of course, isn't necessarily negative at all, but I see this tying into surviving and adapting via playing a certain type of patriarchal-sanctioned role that was false to her inner truth.  So, that's what I'd say to that.

Thanks lucius. you know im realizing that i dont really understand pallas to begin with. I've heard jwg speak of it as where we are channeling from a higher source- but I dont comprehend this much. perhaps you or someone will elaborate on how to understand this signature from the perspective of pallas?
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Lucius
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 11, 2010, 09:01 AM »

Lia - I have Pisces on 3rd, so that explains that!

Ari - there was another thread on asteroids that I found helpful.  I forgot about the correlation between Pallas and thought 'seeding'.  That makes sense with the myth, too.  I would gather that Pallas in an aspect with Lucifer NN that we're seeing the need for her to distinguish between good & evil, that evil could use this capability as well as good, that her intentions must be clear (which can be difficult given the nature of the issue).  Needing to discriminate between what is truly an ego-less message to help someone, or real beneficial messages and that which is merely her subconscious & unconscious mind at play with all the dangerous projections, and lack of healthy boundaries, etc.  Clearly she's bringing these issues from the past into this life.  If she is moving into the 2nd spiritual these issues are extremely important - it's this stage where evil really starts to put the pressure on in reaction to the increasing openess and awareness of Spirit.  The differences between Ego, Soul & Spirit will be 'highlighted' as she learns how to 'use' her ego in relation to Soul and allows her soul to be guided purely via Spirit.  She's got some work there however!  Hope that helps!
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Lia
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 11, 2010, 03:04 PM »

Hi Ari and all,


So if I understand this correctly. Virgo being on the cusp of her fifth house- the ruler of which will DEFINE for us how she has sought to impact a special purpose,

Yes. The signs tells the 'what way' and the ruler the 'how'

....and also how the issues of natal pluto lucifer were experienced. The underlying approach was one of service, which was done through TEACHING. In this case it is mercury in capricorn in the 9th= social contribution relative to her own personal discovery of natural law. And so the need to be liked and appreciated was linked to how socially credible and responsible she was as a teacher.

YES. However NOT necessarily in a way as we today understand ‘teaching’. One of the major role the soul fulfilled in the past and has given a social role of the time is connected to 9th capr AND venus/vesta in 10th. The soul was TEACHING young males how to be a male how to use their sexual energy correctly. Vesta, sexual teacher which was a highly important social role. This then of course being distorted by the patriarchy progressively later on. There was a lot of verbal teaching as well about the GENDER ROLES that the soul at that time fulfilled.

The original unconscious identification with a special goddess given purpose and in a sense with the divine itself came from this time at the first place. And at that time it was RIGHT and socially PURPOSEFUL. It was done in a socially responsible way. Here we of course connect the symbols with pluto in libra in 5th to the above.

So this was the original natural social role the soul fulfilled before the patriarchy and from here the progressive distortion affected both society and the laws/norms upon which it operated and of course all this affected the soul.
Every chart signifies both; the soul’s natural ability and its past relative to natural society (this also is symbolised by capr. saturn) and of course the actual reality of the patriarchal distortion is also reflected in each chart. So in our mind’s eye so to speak we need to see both layers in each chart. What is the natural gift and purpose and what happened via the patriarchal distortion?

Relative to capr. one’s ability to consider the social whole the needs of a social unit so to be responsible for others and oneself in a social way is WHAT has been most distorted of course. By way of distorting, turning society and it’s rules upside down.
This is really important to remember whenever we examine capr. in any chart.
Individuals who had some sort of socially important role before the patriarchy, thus people respected them and listened to them were the ones that has been most attacked of course either overtly or covertly.
This chart tells the story of the covert attack.

Confuse the soul’s sense of truth by way of exploiting it’s inclination to serve the social whole and progressively convince the soul that this or that is good for society and this or that what others need from the soul. Distort its human weakness (the need for recognition, positive feedback, love, acceptance etc.) and evil sits in. The original inclination to serve the goddess and be one of the living, flesh and blood priestesses have been distorted to be the greek/roman consort, the sacred prostitute who eventually served those men who’s purposes brought havoc to the larger society. At that time the soul has already been totally alienated from the larger social whole and repressed it’s intuition. So the false living, the living a lie has started...

so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th,
 

 I guess you meant that neptune is ruled by jup in 8th? As to illusions about intimacy? Yes, and that is because orignally the soul fulfilled a natural teaching role via intimacy, sexuality. Therefore it was way easy to project this onto relationships which had absolutely nothing to do with natural law anymore.

so we got neptune in the 7th which relates to naivete and illusions around intimacy and relationships. this being ruled by pluto libra in the 5th, conj lucifer which itself is ruled by mercury in cap in the 9th- can we then conclude that she her patterns has been to "help" people on a "professional" level by being a mentor- offering guidance and counsel to others as a way to be respected- and thus to fulfill the desire nature to be liked? would it make sense to say that she would create an IMMENSE degree of popularity for herself as a result of this pattern?


I think there is some confusions here...the rulers are not right...
Only the house cusp is ruled by merc. but pluto and lucifer ruled by venus in 10th. So while there is an overall original service desire by way of the 5th, pluto in it is libra. So from service the 5th house pluto actually signifies co-dependency and enmeshment in relationship. Yes it is important to see how this started. But where pluto is libra and we need to understand it there with lucifer conj.


The original aim of the soul has been distorted, the soul became the greek/roman consort/patner etc. enmeshed with people who had a special social role at that time.....living in a bubble (5th house) trying to believe it is ’right’ suppressing it’s intuition and disconnecting from its true self.....living a lie...2nd house is gemini ruled by merc: the valuesystem the soul has is changeable. Depending on what others/society told was true....trying to believe it was....deep within having some knowledge that there is something wrong....yet trying to suppress it debate it via INNER left brain debate .....hanging on to the illusion.....until a blow.....Yes survival was one of the issues here but the major issue was the venus in 10th in pisces; delusions abut the social reality and the soul’s role....As as what the ’divine’ wants what is true and what is accepted from the soul by society....10th pisces issues.... as society changed so the way to survive changed and the soul’s valuesystem changed....and inwardly (9th house) feeling guilty silently because of it....which lead to ever further confusion....


I see that you address this in the next paragraph- re: religious guilt. also, is that at all connected to natal mercury semi square neptune?



Yes. As the ages gone by different concepts and philosophical/ religious ideas came all of them increasingly patriarchal with less and less remains of the original perception of the divine during the matriarchal time..yet the impulse with the  pisces venus in 10th and virgo 5th cusp relative to her evo. cond. as you said in the spir. cond. the soul still wants to serve god...no matter how mistaken the desire is true....so leading to adopting (merc.) to the whatever age philosophical religious concepts..9th capr.

Within this the soul felt ashamed for what it was thinking time to time and suppressed it.....yet some of those thoughts were actually her own intuition....(mercury sq. uranus-trying to awaken the soul to see the objective reality, saturn retro- internalisation and liberation impulse, you rightly said it points to uranus.
Getting ever more confused and traumatised because the soul alienated from it‘s own inner sense of truth....enduring relationships some of them were abusive and violent and highly undermining.....


Cont.
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