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General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.

Started by ari moshe, Feb 06, 2010, 05:28 PM

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ari moshe

Hello all,

I am wondering why EA doesn't work with the sign of Scorpio the 8th house as a part of the Pluto and the nodes paradigm. Why is only Pluto addressed when it comes to reading the soul's evolutionary intentions prior to this life?

Does it have something to do with the intrinsic nature of a planet versus a sign and house?

Thank you.

Deva

Hi Ari-the Pluto paradigm- in total- gives us an understanding of the core dynamics within any Soul relative to the correlations of Pluto, Pluto's polarity point, the nodes, their rulers. We must first understand these core dynamics reflected in the Pluto paradigm before we can properly understand the other factors in the birth chart (including the other planets, and the houses and signs they occupy. In other words, many people have Scorpio on the 2nd house cusp (in the 2nd house), yet how we could interpret how that archetype would be functioning within consciousness is determined by our understanding of the core dynamics within the Pluto paradigm. The Pluto paradigm is like the foundation of a house because it serves as the bottom line upon which all other factors in the birth chart are interpreted and given meaning. Hope this helps, and please feel free to ask for more clarification if you feel you need it. Thanks for posting!
Deva   

ari moshe

Thanks Deva,

I don't understand WHY the Pluto paradigm is what is it. In other words:
If someone has Aries on the 8th house cusp, Scorpio on the 3rd with a bunch of planets in Scorpio, and Pluto in the 1st house. Why do we only explore Pluto and nodes as a basis and context for understanding all the other signatures. While there is a clear difference between a sign, planet and a house- don't both Scorpio and the 8th house contain the same symbology and meaning as Pluto?

Perhaps it is because:
1. the sign scorpio itself is ruled by Pluto- so it is neccesary to understand Pluto in order to understand the evolutionary intentions implied by the sign scorpio.

2. each house itself is ruled by a particular planet, and thus that planet needs to be analyzed in order to understand the activities of that house. And of course every planet can only be understood in the context of Pluto and the nodes...
For example: in the above chart- Aries is on the 8th house- so that does in fact indicate something about the soul's evoltuionary intentions proir to this life, does it not? However, it is ruled by a planet- Mars. And Mars in and of itself, paves the way for a soul's realization. Just the fact that it is a planet- means we have to understand it for what it is. It simply brings us back to Pluto and the nodes as a neccesary means to understand Mars, and thus all 8th house activity.

Did that make sense?

Rad

Hi Ari,

The Zodiac, it's Houses and Signs, correlate to the total structure of consciousness in human form. The planets within the Zodiac correlate to bringing that consciousness to life, and thus setting  in motion consciousness itself. The planets within the Zodiac are the unique structural nature of that consciousness from life to life. They are the gasoline within the tank. This is why we start with Pluto, the Nodes, the location of their planetary rulers, and all the aspects to other planets that they are making. This is the core and foundation upon which the Soul structure and it's evolutionary background, and it's evolutionary development, is understood. Wherever the sign Scorpio, by house, is will contribute to this foundation because the Signs on the Houses correlate to how consciousness is orientated to phenomenal reality. And that current life orientation to phenomenal reality reflects the evolutionary needs of the Soul in this life. Planets that are in Scorpio, or the 8th  House,  correlate to the Soul's intention, in this life, to metamorphose the existing development and limitations implied in the archetypes of the planets themselves.  The sign on the 8th  House is an archetype in which this same Soul intention to metamorphose the existing development of that archetype within consciousness exists.

Rad


ari moshe

Thank you Rad, that was really helpful.

If however a soul has Aries on the 8th with no planets in Aries- is it true to say that in this life, the intent for that soul is to transform the pre-existing limitations and development from previous lives that are implied by natal Mars?

And thus Aries on the 8th house- only in light of whatever Mars is doing- would indicate where a soul left off?

Rad

Hi Ari,

"If however a soul has Aries on the 8th with no planets in Aries- is it true to say that in this life, the intent for that soul is to transform the pre-existing limitations and development from previous lives that are implied by natal Mars?"

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No. It would not be the natal Mars, but the S.Node of Mars by sign, house, and aspects to it. The current position, the natal position, of Mars correlates to how to move forwards in this life in order to evolve beyond where the Soul left off with the existing desires from past lifetimes. It is essential to remember that all desires emanate from the Soul. And that the root of such desires to evolve, the ongoing evolutionary journey of the Soul, is of course all symbolized by the natal position of Pluto, and it's polarity point. Mars, as an archetype, is the lower octave of Pluto that instinctually acts out, acts upon, those desires emanating from the Soul itself.

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"And thus Aries on the 8th house- only in light of whatever Mars is doing- would indicate where a soul left off?"

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The S.Node of Mars would indicate where the desires emanating from the Soul was left off relative to it's desires to evolve. Aries on the 8th would then symbolize the Soul's intention in this life to confront and evolve beyond those existing limitations: of where those desires was left off. The current life Mars will then, for the entire life, correlate to where and how this will be done, and the N.Node of Mars will correlate the new desires emanating from the Soul to how and where the desires symbolized by the natal Mars will evolve themselves which are relative to the Pluto's natal polarity point.

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Rad

ari moshe

Thank you Rad. I don't quite understand some basics it seems.

1. Doesn't Mars in and of itself have pl implications?

2. When you say "the natal position of mars correlates to how to move forwards in this life in order to evolve beyond where the soul left off with the existing desires (pluto) from pl" does that really mean that one's natal mars has no past life resonance?

3. does this mean we can only understand mars in relation to it's sn, which itself can only be understood in relation to pluto- WHICH ITSELF can only be understood in relation to the sn of pluto???

Do you have any meditation/guidance for how I can personally connect with this these facts, beyond the mind. I feel as though anything could be true or false, and I'd have no way of personally knowing one way or the other. Maybe more guidance/insight for the breathing practice?
Thank you.

Rad

Ari,

Quote from: ari moshe on Feb 09, 2010, 01:26 PM
Thank you Rad. I don't quite understand some basics it seems.

1. Doesn't Mars in and of itself have pl implications?

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It does when there are aspects to it from Pluto, or aspects to the S.Node, it's planetary ruler, or aspects to that planetary ruler.

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2. When you say "the natal position of mars correlates to how to move forwards in this life in order to evolve beyond where the soul left off with the existing desires (pluto) from pl" does that really mean that one's natal mars has no past life resonance?

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no.........as above.

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3. does this mean we can only understand mars in relation to it's sn, which itself can only be understood in relation to pluto- WHICH ITSELF can only be understood in relation to the sn of pluto???

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Essentially yes, unless there are aspects that it forms as defined above. The current life Mars, is THE CURRENT LIFE MARS. If it is directly connected to the past, as above, it is still the current life Mars and operates in exactly the way that has been detailed above.

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Do you have any meditation/guidance for how I can personally connect with this these facts, beyond the mind. I feel as though anything could be true or false, and I'd have no way of personally knowing one way or the other. Maybe more guidance/insight for the breathing practice?

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You can know it for yourself by practice, and allowing your intuition to simply grasp the truth of the total EA paradigm. We all know, not believe, that we have a past because it's a known quantity: it exits. We also know that we have a future because we have had a past. And that knowing exists in each moment of our life: inhale and exhale. This is known. Does not require belief of any kind. The paradigm of EA perfectly reflects this simple, and natural truth. Thus, we have S.Nodes, current life positions of planets, and N.Nodes. It is the interweaving of the known past with the evolutionary pull of the future than manifests as desires that we act upon, and that action occurs in the moment. It's just that simple. The totality of the Soul's birth chart in each life symbolized in all of these symbols correlates to this natural law and truth.


Rad

ari moshe

Thank you Rad, this is becoming clearer as I'm allowing it to speak to me.

I was wondering why we don't look at the sn of Pluto first and read the south node of the Moon as a vehicle for the sn of Pluto? I am beginning to grasp the trinity- however, why does Pluto represent the soul's evolutionary desires from previous lives whereas all the other planets, assuming they are not in aspect to any node (or pluto) do not innately imply past lives?

Rad

Ari

"I was wondering why we don't look at the sn of Pluto first and read the south node of the Moon as a vehicle for the sn of Pluto? I am beginning to grasp the trinity- however,

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     The Soul, again, has it's own unique identity as created by the Source, or God. As such, it has it's own ego that creates an image in the Soul of that unique identity. The awareness of that unique Soul identity is a function of evolution itself which finally leads be being self aware, and has the evolved capacity, at some point, to objectify itself. The S and N Nodes of Pluto correlate to this ongoing evolutionary development of the Soul from within itself. The natal position of the current life Pluto simultaneously correlates to what the desires have been within the Soul for it's own development, thus where it left off in those lives that have lead to the current life, and the evolutionary intent for the current life for it's evolution to proceed: the natural polarity point of that natal Pluto. The S.Node of Pluto, by it's own house and sign location, aspects to it from other planets, aspects to it's natural planetary ruler all correlates to archetypes and dynamics that the Soul has used to develop itself, evolve itself, relative the it's core desires for it's evolution that is symbolized in the natal position of Pluto itself. The N.Node of Pluto correlates to how and why the Soul evolves itself from within itself: what it needs to continue in it's evolution. Other planets that aspect this N.Node are archetypes that correlate to this ongoing evolution of the Soul within itself.

     In order for all these internal dynamics within the Soul itself that correlate to it's own ongoing evolution it must project or externalize itself through the creation of forms: the human form. This natural law or principle is the same as of what we call the Source of All Things, or God, projecting and externalizing itself in the form of what we call CREATION. What we call God does this in order to know itself in all of these forms in the totality of Creation. So too with the individual Soul. The Soul needs to project or externalize itself in order to know itself, to objectify itself.

     So the Soul projects and externalizes itself form life to life in the form of the lifetimes that it lives that are all finite. The Soul itself is infinite just as God itself is infinite. Each finite life that the Soul projects from within itself, just as God projects each individualized Soul from within itself, reflects and symbolizes the core desires from within the Soul that reflect it's own ongoing evolutionary desires to evolve. As a result of this projection form life to life we then have the birth charts for each of those lives that reflect the finite forms that the Soul creates in order to affect it's ongoing evolution. In each of these finite forms that the Soul creates it thus creates a consciousness that has it's own subjective self awareness that we call the ego or 'I'. And of course that subjective ego , the egocentric structure, is a projection from the Soul itself in order to know itself relative to the finite form it has created in each life that reflects it's ongoing evolutionary needs and requirements.

     The subjective 'I' or ego that is created in each life by the Soul of course is the archetype of the Moon. The evolutionary journey of the Soul through time is thus symbolized through all the different finite forms or lives that it creates that are determined by it's evolutionary needs and desires. And it is each of these finite lives that the Soul creates that the birth chart correlates too. And in each of those lives the finite ego does indeed 'die' , just as the body dies. Yet the memories of each life are sustained and live on within the Soul itself. And it is these ongoing evolutionary experiences from life to life that are the ongoing determinant and cause for yet another life.


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"why does Pluto represent the soul's evolutionary desires from previous lives whereas all the other planets, assuming they are not in aspect to any node (or pluto) do not innately imply past lives?"

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     Because Pluto correlates to the Soul itself, and within that, the natural law of evolution. It correlates to what the desires of the Soul has been that has lead to the current life, and the desires that correlate to it's ongoing evolutionary needs. This is contained with Pluto, the Soul, itself. All the other planets in a current life birth chart are thus created by the Soul for it's ongoing evolutionary needs that are reflected in it's desires. The current life birth planets do have their own N and S Nodes. It is the S.Nodes of these planets that do correlate to the past life dynamics that the Soul has created for itself that have lead to the current life, and the position of whatever planet IN THIS LIFE that symbolizes the current life's evolutionary needs.

     The current life position brings the past forwards through it: the S.Node coming through the current position of the planet itself. The N.Node of the planet in turn correlates to the ongoing evolutionary journey of the Soul as it continues to evolve through each of the archetypes of all the planets. The cause of that evolution is the Soul, not any of the other planets themselves. The natural polarity point of the natal Pluto is the bottom line evolutionary intent for the Soul in each life. It is the primary cause that causes the N.Nodes of all the other planets to actualize according to that primary evolutionary intention. The natal planet, in the current life, birth chart, serves to integrate the past and the future in each moment FOR THE ENTIRE LIFE.


Rad

Upasika

Hi Rad,

OK, so within the EA paradigm, in general how much "weight" should we put on the south and north nodes of the planets when working with a chart?

Obviously we put a lot of weight (or emphasis) on the north and south nodes of the Moon.
How much then to give to the nodes of Pluto itself? and how much to give to all the rest of the planets?

If some planets are highlighted in the chart for various reasons e.g on an angle, part of a tight aspect pattern, or a moon node ruler, or in aspect to Pluto etc, would that mean the nodes of these planets become more important in chart analysis?

thanks Upasika

Rad

Hi Upasika,

Quote from: Upasika on Feb 12, 2010, 10:05 PM
Hi Rad,

OK, so within the EA paradigm, in general how much "weight" should we put on the south and north nodes of the planets when working with a chart?

Obviously we put a lot of weight (or emphasis) on the north and south nodes of the Moon.
How much then to give to the nodes of Pluto itself? and how much to give to all the rest of the planets?

If some planets are highlighted in the chart for various reasons e.g on an angle, part of a tight aspect pattern, or a moon node ruler, or in aspect to Pluto etc, would that mean the nodes of these planets become more important in chart analysis?

thanks Upasika

Pluto and it's Nodes, planetary rulers, aspects to these from other planets, correlate to the root structure within any birth chart. And from that root all else, the S.N.Nodes of the Moon, their planetary rulers, aspects to these points, are 'birthed' from that root. It's like a tree that has branches where the root produces the trunk of the tree, and the trunk then produces branches with leaves. This core root and it's branches within the birth chart is treated EQUALLY for it is the very structure of the chart itself. If we understand this root structure within the birth chart and relate it to the natural law of cause and effect then we can understand that core structure within the birth chart at once. It will, of itself, induce inductive logic. And from there we can then understand the origins and causes of all the specific leaves manifesting from the branches, i.e. why is this Mars in Gemini squaring Mercury in Pisces.
     

  Rad

Upasika

#12
Hi Rad,

Thanks for that foundation perspective, it clarifies the whole bottom line of the chart.

To clarify I understand correctly, this means then that ...

- Pluto (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodes (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodal rulers (sign/house)
- aspects from all of the above to other planets (and their signs/houses - and if more info is required, also their nodes)

... are the fundamental root of any chart.

From there, the the sign/house of the Moon's nodes, Moon's nodal rulers, and Pluto's polarity point are brought in. Then aspects from all these to other planets (and their signs/houses). Also at this level a planet's nodes can be examined if more info was required.

Then progression to examination of any other part of the chart that thus becomes implicated out of this.

(Realising of course that every part of the chart has a part in the whole person/event and so eventually needs to be included in a totally complete analysis.)

Please correct me if I haven't got any or all of this right.

One question I have is: Pluto's polarity point shows the soul's current evolutionary intentions for this life (unless Pluto is conjunct the Moon's N.Node in which case there is no polarity point for Pluto). So how does PPP differ to Pluto's N.Node in this regard?

And again thanks Rad for being so generous with your time and guidance.

Upasika


Rad

#13
Hi Upasika,

  Yes, you have summarized it correctly.

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  "So how does PPP differ to Pluto's N.Node in this regard?"

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     The N.Node of Pluto reflects the ongoing evolutionary development of the Soul from within itself that is then actualized through the creation, projection, externalization of itself via the finite form it creates in each life. This is symbolized by the polarity point of Pluto in the current life birth chart. The Soul, from within itself, of course contains all the previous identities, singular life/ finite forms, that it has ever lived. It also contains within itself all the different possibilities, future life / finite forms, that could occur. That which can occur is dependent of what the Soul, within itself, DESIRES. Those desires have been the prior life causes of what has already taken place. And in each of those lives the Soul created the necessity of subjective egocentric identities, finite life forms, for the desires to be actualized which of course has lead to yet more desires to evolve that have lead to yet another life. In each of these lives the Soul, from within itself, has had a N.Node that has symbolized those ongoing evolutionary developmental desires. And in each life those desires are then actualized by way of the polarity point of Pluto in each life, the individual birth chart. It's like, from within the Soul itself, it says " I need or desire to evolve in the following way: it's N.Node, and in order to do this I will actualize it like this: the polarity point of Pluto in the individual life that it creates, in each life. "

     The Nodes of Pluto stay in signs, i.e. Cancer/ Capricorn, or whatever signs, about 2,000 years. Most Souls of course will have more than one life within a span of 2,000 years. So the core evolutionary desires from within the Soul exist beyond the singularity of one finite life. In each of those singular lives the Soul continues to desire to evolve in this core archetypal way that is then actualized through each of the specific singular/ finite lives that it lives. And it each of those singular lives that core evolutionary intent within the Soul is actualized by the polarity point of Pluto in those lives: the birth chart that that symbolizes this entire process.

     Let's make a simple example of these dynamics. Let's say person x has in their current birth chart a 9th House Pluto in Leo, the S.Node of Pluto being in Capricorn in the 2nd, which is ruled by Saturn in Leo in the 9th. The N.Node of Pluto would be in Cancer in the 8th, and Pluto's polarity point would be in Aquarius in the 3rd. The Pluto in the 9th in Leo would correlate to a Soul that has desired to understand and actualize itself by way of understanding the nature of the cosmos, and the Natural Laws of Creation. It has spent many, many lives in relative isolation, the S.Node of Pluto in Capricorn in the 2nd, in order to inwardly contemplate that nature of Creation in order to realize by way of that isolated contemplation the nature of these Natural Laws which thus become the very basis of the Soul's inner relationship to itself: the 2nd House. This, in turn would constitute the Souls core sense of meaning for existence, of that which held the core meaning for life itself.

     The ruler of that S.Node is also in Leo in the 9th. This would restate the Soul actualizing these core desires within the context of Nature, living and being within Nature in order to inwardly know all the Natural Laws that are responsible for Creation, Leo, itself. In relation to the S.Node being in the 2nd these symbols put together correlate to a natural loner who has realized what it has desired in essential isolation in this way.

     Yet, in this way, the Soul has reached an evolutionary limit, and needs to continue to evolve. The Soul, from within itself, realizes this which is then symbolized by it's N.Node being in Cancer in the 8th House: the desire and need to jump out of the well of it's own isolation, and to then engage and help other Souls on their own evolutionary journey. In so doing the Soul will then necessarily interact with other Souls and THEIR REALITIES: the interaction of the S and N Nodes of Pluto where Capricorn correlates to the archetype of reality, the realities of Earth itself. In this interaction with others it thus causes the Soul from within itself to confront it's own evolutionary limitations that then creates the ongoing awareness of what it needs to continue to evolve itself. This confrontation can then cause the Soul to feel insecure from within itself as it is required to evolve beyond where it was by way of it's own understandings of the nature of reality on this Earth that are reflections of the Natural Laws of Creation. These confrontations are intended so that the Soul can evolve beyond where  it has already been.

     In order for these core Soul intentions to evolve it then creates a singular or finite life in which the polarity point of the natal Pluto is in Aquarius in the 3rd. This will manifest, in the context of the example we are using, by creating a life in which the very opposite of where it has been: living alone in relative isolation within Nature. The Soul now will create a life in which it will be totally involved with others who are living within the world, in their cities, wherever whole groups of people exist: Aquarius in the 3rd. And, in this way, purposefully engage the realities of countless others who have all kinds of ideas, opinions, points of vies, ideas, and philosophies from a to z, so to speak. And all of this will then of course impact on the Soul's  current state of understanding the nature of reality that it has already realized in it's past. The Soul then has another choice to make: it can retreat back to where it has been in order to remain secure from within itself, or make a choice to continue to grow from within itself due to the confrontations to that existing reality through the diversity of ideas manifesting within these groups of people, other individuals.

     If it makes the choice to proceed in this way it will then of course continue to evolve which reflects the intention of Pluto's N.Node in Cancer in the 8th. That N.Node of Cancer of course will be ruled by the current life Moon, it's egocentric structure created in the current life. So the underlying dynamics within the Soul that we have been discussing will then be focused, like a lens in a movie projector that creates images on a screen, into a current life identity, the 'I' of the current life. This is the natural law of how a Soul externalizes or projects itself from life to life by creating an 'image' of itself that correlates to the entire 'movie' of that life.


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     And thank you too Upasika for your own work and interest in EA. You certainly seem to be a perfect vehicle to spread , and help others, with this sacred paradigm we call EA.

     God Bless, Rad

     

     

Gonzalo

Hi Rad,

I am trying to integrate this material about the nodes of Pluto in my understanding. I am not sure if it is correct to consider the Pluto SN and its ruler as correlating to older chapters in the Soul's journey, these older chapters coming through the past symbolized by Pluto. 

Let's say a Soul with Pluto in the 2nd House Virgo, Pluto SN in the 7th Capricorn, ruler Saturn in the 10th Taurus, trine Pluto and trine Pluto SN. Pluto NN in Cancer in the 1st House, ruler the Moon in the 2nd House Virgo conjunct Pluto. With Pluto in the 2nd House Virgo, the Soul has passed many lives in relative isolation and relating to himself in order to discover its own sense of value, relating to himself in critical ways.

The SN of Pluto in the 7th would then indicate that the Soul had prior desires to have its sense of identity created through relationships with others. Through patriarchal conditioning (Pluto SN in Capricorn), its patterns of relatedness to others (7th House) become overly defined by responsibility and authority. Thus, this Soul attempted to have its sense of identity created through relationships with others which were, then, defined by responsibility and by a sense of authority which was dependent on being acknowledged by others.   

With the planetary ruler of Pluto SN being Saturn in the 10th House Taurus, the Soul gravitated towards positions of relative social authority. With this Saturn being trine to Pluto SN in the 7th Capricorn, and trine Pluto in the 2nd Virgo, not only the Soul's patterns of relatedness with others and sense of identity obtained through relationships (7th  House, Cap), but also its own sense of value (2nd House) were defined by dynamics of authority. The Soul would have desired to be acknowledged by its social role, and would have also been increasingly relating to others being in authority positions within society. Its own sense of values would have become dependent on social validation and/or by validation by other social authorities (the trine between Saturn and Pluto). This would have created very fixed and narrow patterns of self identity in relationships to others and to himself. This would have also set the scenario for the Soul's downfall from any positions of social authority.

If the Pluto SN correlates to older chapters in the Soul's evolution coming through the past symbolized by Pluto, it would be these dynamics that created the conditions for the Soul's need to go deeper within itself (2nd House Pluto in Virgo) to critically find out from within what its real value and values were, regardless of validation by others and by society. The trine between Pluto and Saturn (PSN ruler) would indicate also that in some lives the Soul was put by others in situations of confinement and isolation. There would also be guilt because of the Soul's prior submission to socially defined values and authorities and how this submission defined its patterns of relationships, versus creating its own value associations.
Upon a large series of lifetimes in this condition, the Soul would now require to go out of isolation in order to confront others and gain through confrontation an increasing awareness of what his values and resources are and how he can relate to others and serve others in a new way, a way not be excessively dependent on others validation from consensus point of view. 

The NN of Pluto in the 1st House Cancer would correlate to the Soul's need to create a new series of experiences for himself, ie. not dependent on relationships with others. The Pluto NN being in Cancer would correlate to the need of de-conditioning itself from patriarchal set of values and approaches which had defined the Soul, through a search of meaning from within, by means of emotional self-relatedness.

The ruler of Pluto NN being the Moon in the 2nd House Virgo would indicate that this new set of experiences and searches of emotional nature would have the purpose for the Soul to go deeper into itself though further experiences of relative isolation and withdrawal, in order to gain increasing self sufficiency and reformulate its self-image from within. Thus, the Soul would need to keep confronting others in order to face its limitations in value associations (PPP in the 8th) thus creating new emotional experiences (PNN in the 1st Cancer) leading to further isolation though, now intending to gain self reliance and deeper knowledge of its value and resources, this fueling the purpose to keep on going toward others despite the feedback received. There would be a theme of repetition and reviewing of the past life experiences of  isolation, though, given the Moon rulership of the PNN, the need would be to integrate this experiences in a new way, this allowing in the long run not to perpetuate this isolated condition but to keep on seeking confrontation with a transformed self-image and greater self-reliance. 

Is the above analysis correct? Your feedback is most desired and appreciated.

Thank you so much, and God Bless,

Gonzalo.