Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Sun as South node ruler Squaring Pluto/south node conjunction  (Read 3888 times)
Rad
Moderator
Most Active Member
*****
Posts: 19857


« Reply #15 on: Apr 20, 2010, 03:04 PM »

Hi Upasika,

 Your analysis was very, very good. Yet the core issue has not been fully grasped which is the causes of the guilt that has lead to the need for atonement. You have identified some of it, but the extremity of her situation, the degree of trauma that she has experienced as a reflection of the need to atone due to guilt, means that she has done things that account for this extremity. In other words, what you have identified would not account for that. When dealing with this guilt/atonement dynamic, in anyone, leading to masochism it is always important to understand the difference between learned guilt, versus natural guilt. Natural guilt occurs anytime any of us violate Natural Laws. Learned guilt is a guilt that is rooted is judgments that emanate from man made laws, customs, taboos, moralities, rights and wrongs, etc that are not part of Natural Laws. The vast majority of the guilt that she carries come from these man made laws equaling projections/ judgments upon her. And even though her Soul knows these judgments to be wrong the fact is she has internalized them anyway: the dominate 2nd House. If any of us are subjected to something long enough, some judgment that we know to be wrong, we will tend to internalize it and believe it anyway.

  The key to working with Souls like hers, in order to heal, is to FOCUS ON THE SOLUTIONS to the problems created by all the traumas. The past can't be changed, the future can. By focusing on the solutions to the problems those problems, and all the damage done, will heal themselves.

 Rad

 
Logged
Upasika
Very Active Member
**
Posts: 348


« Reply #16 on: Apr 21, 2010, 05:12 AM »

Hi Rad,

Thanks very much for pointing out where I need to improve. I do realise that the main thing in the end is to focus on solutions. I had outlined some of that near the end although I had felt that what I said was far from complete. However due to her having MPD I would like to keep focusing a bit more on the causes of the grief, as the sadomasochistic archetype is a bit new for me, and I also feel I need to understand the past as much as possible first as that is where the need to create trauma stems from, and that is what the solutions relate to. And I can see now that what I said doesn't really equate to the core issue and why, that I need to dig more deeper into it and see more fully into the causes of the guilt, so I'll have a go at that. I had thought most of her guilt would have been of the learned (conditioned) kind, so thankfully I was on track there.

I've been busy doing some research today, and tomorrow will see what more I can write on the projections and causes of the guilt, and what I think she has done that sufficiently accounts for this extreme of guilt and thus truama she is creating. And also more on solutions.

A couple of questions:

1. I'm assuming the relevant guilt and it's causes all originate in past lives, not this life (which is mainly a replay of past life issues), would that be correct?

2. Is it correct that when Pluto is conjunct the South Node, it implies that in a recent prior life Pluto was square the Nodal axis? And if that is the case then both the South Node and North node have been activated before, and therefore the guilt in this life could also relate to the North node archetype/issues?

Many thanks for your assistance,

Upasika
« Last Edit: Apr 21, 2010, 05:48 AM by Upasika » Logged
Rad
Moderator
Most Active Member
*****
Posts: 19857


« Reply #17 on: Apr 21, 2010, 11:25 AM »

Hi Upasika,

A couple of questions:

1. I'm assuming the relevant guilt and it's causes all originate in past lives, not this life (which is mainly a replay of past life issues), would that be correct?

*************************************************************************

Yes. I remember that Wolf wrote in his second Pluto book quite a bit about the sado/masochistic dynamic. You might want to check that out.

************************************************************************

2. Is it correct that when Pluto is conjunct the South Node, it implies that in a recent prior life Pluto was square the Nodal axis? And if that is the case then both the South Node and North node have been activated before, and therefore the guilt in this life could also relate to the North node archetype/issues?

****************************************************************************

No, it does not imply that.


*************************************************************************

 Rad
Logged
Upasika
Very Active Member
**
Posts: 348


« Reply #18 on: Apr 24, 2010, 12:03 AM »

Hi Rad,

Well I’ve been doing heaps of research but have found identifying what she must have done to cause such extreme guilt really difficult, and have been struggling with it. But I really want to be able to learn how to do this so I’ve written down a few ideas, and if I’m off track with them I’d be very grateful if you would correct me, and point me further in the right direction to get me going.

I can see how she could have been projected on a lot (Sun in 11th and square Uranus, Uranus involved in the Virgo stellium conjuncting Pluto & the SNode and trining SNode ruler –Mercury, and having an Aquarius Desc). But why? What has she done, or simply been, to attract all this projection?

Strangely enough, one of the first things I noticed was that maybe she has brought trauma into this life from way back in matriarchal times via her relationships with others (Neptune SNode in Aquarius conj Desc). Also she has Ceres retro in Aquarius there too, indicating something to do with nourishment or lack of it, and loss and return as part of her trauma/crisis (Ceres in 6th house and trine SNode ruler – Mercury, but connected stressfully to Venus/Saturn conj in 9th and the Virgo stellium in 2nd). Ceres retrograde indicates she needs to relive issues associated with this. Perhaps in her life past lives she was eccentric and aloof, which antagonised her father (Ceres square Saturn) also prompting rejection from others in general (Ceres conj Desc).

However, the idea that strikes me strongest is that of incest in the family in recent lives. Mars in Sag indicates there has been a series of recent lifetimes in which life was very intense or cataclysmic. Also being retrograde indicates in this life that she needs to tone down her sexual desires, being discriminate with whom she has sex. This isn’t natural for Mars in Sag so there could be confusion in this life relating to sexual partners and possibly orientation, despite her strong sexual nature (Venus in Taurus, 2nd house stellium). However, it also means there may be unresolved sexual issues from the past.

With Mars in the 4th at the apex of a yod involving both Sun and Saturn it’s possible in a past life that she had sex with, or was raped by her father – or with Mars conjunct Neptune in Scorpio in the 3rd it could have been a sibling. Desperately needing love and affection (Moon conj Pluto, Mars in 4th) she may have been unconsciously complicit in this (Venus conj Saturn, Mars ruling Chiron trining Chiron in Aries in 8th), but consciously horrified, and both her father/brother would have not wanted her to tell her mother (SNode ruler –Mercury – in 10th, judgements/right and wrong, opp Mars). Nevertheless her mother would have subconsciously sensed it anyway (Moon square Mercury in 10th and quintile Neptune in 3rd) which would have put a real sting into the anger her mother had towards her. And this would have been a huge source of guilt that she had to carry with a corresponding need to atone for it. However if she had confided to a friend (Sun in 11th, Mercury in Gemini, Neptune in 3rd) and it had leaked out into the community she may have been projected upon and publically humiliated for this (Sun in 11th quincunx Neptune in 3rd, quincunx Mars in 4th, sesquiquadrate Desc in Aquarius, Uranus sesquiquadrate Desc), adding further to the burden of guilt. Of course if it came back to her mother via the public (Sun in 11th square Moon) then her mother would have been enraged at the betrayal and inflicted severe wounding to her (Sun in Cancer square Chiron in 8th).

If this is what happened it would account for an extreme sense of guilt she has brought into this lifetime with the need to create severe trauma as a way of atoning for that guilt. If in fact her parents had been her parents in a past life (would need to be confirmed by synastry), then it would also account for her trauma in this lifetime mainly coming from her mother’s ongoing anger towards her, and sexual issues with a sibling. And by contrast, that her father is supportive and kind to her (Saturn conj Venus), no doubt as a result of the deep guilt he himself feels towards her stemming from past lives (Saturn SNode retro in 6th).

Another possibility is just that she was different in some way (Ceres retro in Aquarius, Uranus conjunct Pluto and the SNode, square Sun, trine Mercury, sesquiquadrate Venus, sextiles Mars, conjunct Jupiter, and opposite Chiron) and that she got unfairly persecuted for this – people projected their fears onto her (Sun in 11th, Aquarius Desc). Being at the beginning of 1st stage individuated she would have hid her true thoughts and opinions (Neptune in 3rd opp Mercury in 10th – SNode ruler) out of fear, and retreated into herself, and escaped into nature (Neptune retro in 3rd in Scorpio, Venus conj Saturn in Taurus in 9th, Mars retro in Sag in 4th) as often as she could, maybe even becoming a hermit living outside of civilisation. Yet still confused as to her true identify (1st individuated), feeling a complete failure and guilty because of that.

I’m not sure if all this up to here is right or not, and whether I still haven’t grasped the core issue yet?

SOLUTIONS

Additional to, and expanding on the solutions I’ve outlined in the previous post, the fundamental solution is that she takes responsibility for all that she is experiencing in this life by way of trauma and crisis. She will be able to do this once she sees the deep guilt she is carrying and her unconscious wish to atone for it, and thus the deep compulsion to create crisis (Virgo stellium). And that this is responsible for her life situations. Now middle aged, she does in fact desire to come out of the difficult life situations she has experienced and has developed an internal individualised purpose expressly based on this (Mars waxing quintile Pluto) but she needs to resolutely stand against the pull of all her past tendencies to create crisis and trauma (Mars easy aspects to Virgo stellium - except Moon), so it is a matter of aligning her fiery and future orientated will (Leo Asc, Sag on cusp 5th) to this purpose. This may be difficult with Sun in Cancer and Moon conj Pluto, which both long for family bonds and nurturing, yet it is primarily within the family that the old patterns of behaviour will lie.

What she does have available to her is a reasonably good mental grasp of things (Mercury in Gemini in 10th, and Jupiter balsamic conj Uranus) which can use to help analyse herself and situations she finds herself in (Virgo). Combined with this with Libra on the 3rd house cusp she does have the ability to communicate with others, although with Neptune in 3rd she may have little interest in thought processes and possibly spaces out a bit. Nevertheless she has started to individuate, primarily mentally, and active communication with her family members about her real feelings (Mercury 1st quarter square Moon) would be a fruitful avenue of healing if she can summon the courage to do it, if not all the time, at least on a semi frequent basis. She can stand up for herself and it will help her release her compressed emotions (Moon conj Pluto in 2nd, Venus in Taurus).

With the Moon in the 1st house she can search for new emotional responses to situations on an instinctive basis, contacting to her emotional needs more immediately instead of bowing meekly to their repeating demands (Pluto conj Moon). And with Mars retro in Sag in the 4th opp Mercury in Gemini in 10th she can actively seek out information and knowledge about her mental health, and engage in activities she finds healing and enjoyable rather than sitting at home all the time in her well.

Once she has a good conscious grasp of her underlying guilt patterns and crisis creating tendencies, and the clear desire to take responsibility for them, then she will be ready to reach for her NNode in Pisces in 8th. With it’s ruler Neptune in Scorpio in 3rd trining the NNode, and ruled and sextiled by Pluto itself in 2nd, plus Moon ruling 12th house,  she has a clear pathway available to her to move along into a new and more uplifting space – spirituality. She can join up with local groups of people that have a spiritual focus, taking her out of her well into new personal and social territory. Saturn, being the way she structures her consciousness, is in 9th house so she will also have a natural interest in religious and metaphysical subject matter and may explore different churches to see what they have to offer. However with Saturn in Taurus and Mars in Sag she will be pretty pragmatic about any supposed benefits religion has, and after some time may not find much worth pursuing there. This will leave her with a deeper hunger for the truth, for some real taste or sense of the Source, and if she keeps exploring at the minimum she will rule out the false positives.

With Chiron in Aries in 8th opp Uranus in Virgo in 2nd she may find either she projects her wounds onto other people or they project theirs onto her. When she projects she will meet with confrontation which will cause her to retreat and hopefully analyse (Virgo) the dynamics in her that caused the confrontation. When others project onto her she would be best to objectively (opposition) analyse what has been said or done, and if she senses it has no objective merit then throw it off (opposition) immediately (Aries), otherwise take on the new information as objective knowledge that can help her. In this way she can progressively deepen (8th) her knowledge of self (Aries).

All this will be helping her to develop the PPP in Picses in 8th. As her fears lessen she will become more relaxed about stepping out of her limited world of relative isolation and taking small risks with the unknown - associating with strangers without automatically projecting her fears of safety onto them, opening up to discussions with others that expose her to differing ways of looking at right and wrong, broadening her horizons and educating herself about what is "normal" so she can compare that to what she feels and believes, allowing new perspectives to dawn (Mars in Sag in 4th PP in Gemini in 10th, Jup conj Uranus). This will help her find a new centre which has often been lacking (Virgo stellium) that is based on feeling part of a bigger and wider universe, and may start  the process of dissolving (Neptune in 3rd) the boundaries between the different personalities operating inside her (MPD).  

As this process unfolds she may attract powerful people into her life (PPP in 8th) at key points who represent a symbol of wholeness (Chiron in Aries in 8th) who she can trust and get close to, and osmose from them their spontaneity, courage and wisdom. These people will point out her limitations to her, and if she can make the effort to listen and take it in she will be able to grow beyond those previously restrictive limitations.  

With Chiron in 8th she will be able to be creative with her healing process, searching out new and effective solutions that enhance her healing. For example, when she is ready she may be able to supplement her current therapy with JWG's technique for eliminating learned masochism (posted by Adina on another thread).

Along with the solution outlines from the previous post the net effect of all of this would be to continue her newly started journey of individualisation, with its movement away from consensus man made reality and laws towards Natural Law. As her spiritual understanding grows she will be gradually shedding old outworn beliefs that support her feelings of guilt and resulting masochism, and restructuring her view of life, which will be based on solid experience and personally felt truth (Neptune, ruler of NNode, quincunx Saturn in Taurus in 9th, via Neptune's conj to Mars).


Thanks for helping me gradually get a better grasp of this chart Rad, so far I've found it a really tough challenge.

blessings, Upasika




« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2010, 03:46 PM by Upasika » Logged
Rad
Moderator
Most Active Member
*****
Posts: 19857


« Reply #19 on: Apr 24, 2010, 09:59 AM »

Hi Upasika,

 The theme/ dynamic that you saw concerning sex and family dynamics in the one to focus on as the causes that have lead to her traumas. The symbols that you saw that correlated with this are accurate and correct. And there have been many variations with that core theme/ dynamics. You have identified some of them correctly. They  have also included the actual murdering of a child in another two other lives. They have also included having sex, as a mother, with a son in another life. I could go on with these different variations, but the dynamic that you have identified is that which is critical to understand the extremities that have caused the severity of the traumas.

 When working with cases like this it is course critical that you be very, very careful in terms of how much you actually present to this women, or others that you may run into down the line in your work. You must be able to accurately gage what you feel is right for them to know: of how much to actually share. The danger of course is if you present to much detailed information that it will re-compound the guilt, thus perpetuate the atonement leading to undermining of any capacity to heal, to move on. Sometimes it is enough to say to a client that look we have all done things that are not so good in our prior lives, all of us, and so have you. Do you want to focus on that, or do you want to focus on healing ? If they ask for some specific information about the past life causes then try to limit what you present: just enough for them to get the point. And, even then, remind them that all Souls have fucked up before, not just the client. 

 Please feel free to ask me more about any of this.

 God Bless, Rad
 
Logged
Upasika
Very Active Member
**
Posts: 348


« Reply #20 on: Apr 27, 2010, 01:52 AM »

Thank you Rad for focusing my efforts. And I do recognise the points you are making regarding disclosure and not making the situation worse, and I'll definitely take the approach you suggested.

And thanks, I do have a few questions ...

For myself, what I’d like to know more about is working with the different layers (or variations) of symbols – in this case using the symbols in different ways to represent her in past lives as a mother, as a murderer of her son at one time, and a lover of her son at another time. I’m interested in the different play of these dynamics - how to see she has murdered a child in two lifetimes, and also had sex with her son in another life etc.

Firstly ... just going back to the beginning and building the past life landscape up again ... Pluto (soul) conjunct South Node (soul's previous modes of operation) in 2nd in Virgo, with ruler Mercury in 10th, is the bottom line reference point. Pluto conj South Node is part of a huge Virgo stellium indicating one or more extreme events having preceded it, bringing it into being. These events will be connected to the stellium.

Looking at the overall flow of energy in the chart ... all the energy in the stellium is compressed (by definition) plus it is in Virgo (mutable) making it very prone to being anxious, sadomasochistic and uncentered, and it's right at the saturation point of the chart (South Node) - huge accumulated saturation there. Thus the hard aspects from this stellium to other planets in the chart (houses 8,9,10,11) and all hard aspects from those planets to other points, may all be likely to express fairly often in an uncentered, sometimes out of control way. And when the Virgo stellium is highly agitated over a period of time (unless say the person was in a spiritual stage) we could possibly expect real violence at times - sex, rape, murder ... clueing us into what likely happened.

However due to a corner of the Mystic Rectangle being anchored in the same Virgo stellium, there are also some easy aspects (to houses 3,4,8,9,10) and to other points from there. When the Virgo stellium expresses through these aspects higher expresssions of the energy could be expected ... at least communication, but also co-operation, sharing and possibly intimacy. Also related to the  expressions of these aspects, with one side of the Mystic Rectangle being the Mars trining and ruling Chiron in 8th signature, this suggests that probably here too, sex is also involved.

So these three dynamics - rape, murder and sex - present themselves.

Murder (death) and sex are pretty closely connected at a fundamental level so I guess the symbols involved will be much the same for most of these situations. My thinking would be that Mars retro (sex, anger) in the 4th house (in the family) is very likely central to it all, so therefore we have the 4th house (family) as the point from which all these things would activate. This limits the field to a family setting.

Also Pluto/Scorpio/8th house (sex/death), and possibly Saturn, Uranus and Chiron are relevant too?  

I would take the hard aspects to Mars as indicative of violence, and the soft aspects indicative of sex (am assuming the sex wasn't violent).

And now we can revolve family members around the relevant symbols in the chart, that each describe them in their different roles (e.g the mother can be represented by either the Moon, or the 4th house).

So for murdering a child to be represented we could have Moon (representing the mother) square the Sun (natural ruler of the 5th house - children) in Cancer (early family), representing the child. The square to the “child” (Sun) along with Mars retro in 4th quincunxing it indicate a very aggressive and frustrated relationship between the mother and child, with the mother hating it and unconsciously (Moon conj Pluto) projecting that hate onto the child (Moon conj Uranus -via the stellium- square Sun in 11th).

At some point something snaps (Sun square Chiron, Chiron in 8th opposes the Moon and represents the mother feeling wounded by the child’s existence) and explodes (Moon conj Uranus) in a fit of rage (Moon picks up a sextile –easy option- via the stellium, to Mars retro in 4th –violence in the family- and ruler of Chiron) and kills it (Moon sesquiduadrate –willful expression into the environment- Saturn, a controlling/crushing force, or blunt instrument).

And for sex with a son to be represented we could have Mars retro in 4th (4th representing the mother) conjunct Neptune retro in Scorpio (dissolution of emotional boundaries) both trining Chiron in 8th in Aries (sex & taboos / instincts / healing) which is ruled by Mars (the mother). The fact it was with one of her children might be represented by the 8th house being the 5th house (children) from the 4th house cusp (the 4th is representing her as a mother), and that it was with a son, being represented by the planet in the 8th, Chiron, being in Aries (a masculine sign).

By having sex with her son the mother may have been hoping (Neptune) for a powerful experience (8th) of renewing herself as a way of healing her own wounds (Chiron in Aries opp Moon - the mother).

A couple of intrigues, but it does seem to be a bit like that when extracting different variations of meaning from the same set of symbols!
Are these correct, sort of right, or way off course?

One thing I’m not fully sure on ... identifying when she occurs as the parent, and when as the child? Is it right to revolve the members involved around different symbols the way I've done it?

And I wouldn’t have any idea how to tell which scenario belongs to which different life … for example, how to tell that she murdered a child not just once, but in two separate lives?

And what other main variations of significance stand out to be seen in this dynamic?

**********

I take it the solutions I’ve outlined for dealing with her compulsion to create crisis and trauma are on track, or mostly?

Do you think there’s anything I’ve missed out completely?

… or that I should focus on a bit more? – for example, I didn’t dwell much on the archetype of the 8th house re PPP – perhaps I should make that more of a focus than I have.

Thanks very much for your help Rad, I’m learning so much with your guidance, thanks so much for your generosity, time and support.

Blessings Upasika
« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2010, 03:38 PM by Upasika » Logged
Rad
Moderator
Most Active Member
*****
Posts: 19857


« Reply #21 on: Apr 28, 2010, 10:38 AM »

Hi Upasika,

"A couple of intrigues, but it does seem to be a bit like that when extracting different variations of meaning from the same set of symbols! Are these correct, sort of right, or way off course?"

*****************************************************************************

First, yes the art of EA is to understand the different dimensions and realities within the same symbols. The astro reasoning that you have used to understand the sex and the family is ok. But the following is the core of it all: Vesta conjunct the Sun and both being squared by the Moon, Pluto, S.Node,  Jupiter, and Uranus, both squaring the N.Node which is ruled by her Neptune in Scorpio in the 3rd conjunct the 4th House Mars retro, Neptune inconjunct her Vesta, and the Mars is RULED BY HER JUPITER in the 2nd which of course is conjunct the Uranus, Pluto, Moon, S.Node conjunction in the 2nd. And that Mars of course is opposed her Mecury in Gemini in the 10th, and that is the ruler of all that Virgo stuff. This is a pattern in her chart that keep looping upon itself. It is the core of it all.

**************************************************************************

One thing I’m not fully sure on ... identifying when she occurs as the parent, and when as the child? Is it right to revolve the members involved around different symbols the way I've done it?

*****************************************************************************

Yes, it is correct to see the different dimensions like this in the chart. You can see her as the parent and the child in her chart coming through time, at different times.

****************************************************************************

And I wouldn’t have any idea how to tell which scenario belongs to which different life … for example, how to tell that she murdered a child not just once, but in two separate lives?

****************************************************************************

The archetype of mulitiples is Gemini. Retrograde also means repeating or redoing something. Thus, her Mecury in Gemini in the 10th in opposition to her Mars retro in Sagittarius in the 4th. As you get more proficient in EA you will learn to see the different dimension of time, and the lifetimes they correlate too.

**************************************************************************

And what other main variations of significance stand out to be seen in this dynamic?

*************************************************************************

Study more deeply the pattern I outlined above.

*************************************************************************

I take it the solutions I’ve outlined for dealing with her compulsion to create crisis and trauma are on track, or mostly?

**************************************************************************

Yes, they are fine. So much depends on how much the women actually wants to know in terms of the past lives, and their causes.

************************************************************************

Do you think there’s anything I’ve missed out completely?

*************************************************************************

No. Mainly it's the KNOWING of these various past lives and their details that you dont' really understand. For example, WHY would she have killed her sons, why did she have sex with her son, etc, etc, etc.............

**************************************************************************

… or that I should focus on a bit more? – for example, I didn’t dwell much on the archetype of the 8th house re PPP – perhaps I should make that more of a focus than I have.

**************************************************************************

A core dynamic in her Soul that has kept all these traumas in place, going around and around with them for lifetimes now, is the fact that she has been UNABLE TO FORGIVE HERSELF...Pisces .. for certain things that she did, and certain things that have occurred. It is this core issue that needs to be addressed for any real healing to take place.

*************************************************************************

Thanks very much for your help Rad, I’m learning so much with your guidance, thanks so much for your generosity, time and support.


Your welcome Upasika ..............

Rad

Logged
Upasika
Very Active Member
**
Posts: 348


« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2010, 08:27 AM »

Hi Rad,

Thanks for that, very helpful. A case of missing the forest for the trees - I’d noticed the core OK, but missed it’s significance because I didn’t link Mars back to the Pluto/SNode Virgo stellium (via Jupiter’s rulership of Mars), but now I can see the endless loop.
Also I haven’t been including asteroids in my EA analysis so far, but I’m taking it now that with Vesta on a close square to the Nodal axis, there are obviously some missed steps to do with Vesta issues. And because Vesta conjuncts the Sun, the Sun is also bound to have been caught up in the skipped steps to some degree. And with the Sun also squaring the Pluto/SNode conjunction and also the planets conjuncting the SNode (meaning it’s been involved in events associated with the SNode past lives) it’s therefore probably caught up in Vesta’s skipped steps quite strongly.

I’ve tried to see better why she did what she did, as it seems very relevant as it’s the underlying cause of what happened, as well as the guilt that followed.

(I've put the chart up here again (small size) for convenience as the original is back a page)





This Life
I can see the significance of Sun squaring the Nodal axis now more clearly … that in itself it doesn’t mean skipped steps (it would normally mean an underlying/background urgency in this life regarding the  evolutionary journey, and that it would be integrated into the conscious life purpose as a major component) … but in this situation it is involved in skipped steps relating from past lives.
Along with this, Mercury as ruler of the SNode and Virgo stellium, is what she has previously identified in past lives as a key resource and will be central to the way of operating that is most familiar with her.

Her intentions mapped out by the NNode in Picses meet severe opposition from the past (Virgo stellium). Any efforts to move to the NNode way of operating haven’t lasted long as it’s trining back to it’s ruler Neptune and from there back into the past. She’s been stuck for a long time. With you saying she has not been able to forgive herself and that’s the solution to breaking out of the loop, I can now see why (NNode being in Pisces) … and also with it being in the 8th, merging with symbols of power may be inevitable as well.

Skipped Steps
Vesta represents the flame, our inner sexual current creating an inner focus on the self – which extends to our expressed sexual energy, attitudes and issues; our commitment and sacrifice towards goals; and devotion to purifying and transforming our energy. She has avoided fully dealing with these dynamics in the past, and in doing so will have acted without regard for consequences in the public arena (10th house), or retreated into herself (SNode in 2nd house stellium) or struck up relationships with people that she had a powerful effect on or who had a powerful affect on her (NNode 8th house).

Since Vesta represents the inner sexual current, the skipped step means she hasn’t developed this in a balanced healthy way, and so will have distortions around it.

Distorted Sexuality
She might have been a courtesan or prostitute of some kind in past lives (Vesta in Gemini in 10th closely conjunct the Sun in the 11th, squaring the 2nd house stellium - Pluto/SNode/Jupiter/Uranus). At other times this distortion will have manifested in her family (Vesta quincunx Neptune in Scorpio in 3rd, Neptune conjunct Mars in 4th – family environment).

With:
•   Mercury (SNode ruler) in Gemini/curiosity/siblings opposite Mars (which is ruled by Jupiter/expansion from 2nd house),
•   and Vesta in Gemini squaring everything in the 2nd house and quincunxing Neptune retro in 3rd in Scorpio (conj that Mars)
•   and with Neptune sextiling back to everything in the 2nd house again,
- she probably had sex with her sibling(s).

With:
•   Vesta also being conjunct the Sun (natural ruler of 5th – children) in 11th in Cancer,
•   and the Sun squaring the 2nd house stellium, and also quincunxing Neptune in 3rd (conj Mars retro in 4th)
•   and Mars being sextile back to Uranus in 2nd      
- she probably also had sex with her children. That they were sons is because its Mars in 4th, not Venus?

And, it also looks like she had sex/was raped by her father (Mars in 4th quincunx Saturn (conj Venus) as well Mars quincunxing Sun/Vesta).

Distorted Anger
Under certain conditions Mars can express as violence. The Sun in 11th squares the Moon in 1st and the 2nd house stellium, (Pluto/SNode/Jupiter/Uranus) and quincunxes Mars in 4th in Sagittarius, also Saturn in 9th quincunxes Mars too; Mars is opposite Mercury in 10th in Gemini (which rules the 2nd house stellium - preservation at all costs), and squares the Moon in 1st (independence/instinctual responses), which conjuncts the 2nd house stellium (preservation), which mostly sextiles Mars … all in all she probably had an explosive temper.

She would have had strongly entrenched beliefs (Jupiter in 2nd, Saturn/Venus in 9th in Taurus), and she would have argued with anyone who disagreed with them (Mercury square Moon). Her view of the world, of life, was a serious matter, one of survival. With Sun square Pluto she would have also felt herself to be special, and wanted to take control of her life situations in society at large (Sun in 11th) and especially with her family (Sun in Cancer square Moon and quincunx Mars in 4th) through being very manipulative and controlling in her relationships.

With Mercury in Gemini she would have been able to pick out the weaknesses in opposing arguments, and mentally dominate others. She would have got into intense and heavy disputes, and if needed may well have killed because of her need for power (Sun square Pluto), and also to retain her own sense of safety, security and consistency (2nd house), Mars retro in the 4th (family) indicates it would have been her sons she killed?

Psychological Slavery
In her urge to escape from things she had done she would have created relationships with priests and other powerful or mysterious people, who she felt could give her a either a sense of salvation or experience with a taboo, or they would have some power (Neptune in 3rd in Scorpio ruling and trining NNode in 8th in Picses) – she would have considered anything that would have been an escape from herself and given her security (Mercury in Gemini, Mars in Sag / Venus in Taurus, 2nd house Virgo stellium). She would have been very gullible, and placed a lot of faith in whatever these people chose to tell her (NNode in Picses, Neptune in 3rd conj Mars in Sag). With Neptune (conj Mars) ruling and trining NNode in Picses she consequently may have been exploited, for example entrapped as a sexual slave, and she may also been hysterical or paranoid (Neptune retro).

She may have ended up totally confused, disorientated, and with a growing sense of defeat. This would lead her to break away from these situations, violently if needed (Chiron in 8th in Aries opposite Uranus).  Chiron is also squaring the Sun/Vesta skipped steps, as well as sextiling Mercury (ruler of Virgo stellium), and sesquiquadrate Neptune in Scorpio in 3rd. She has suffered some major wounds of these 8th house experiences each time she got involved with them. This would throw her back to herself (2nd house) with increasing force (8th house). When eventually she couldn’t contain her withdrawal any longer she would start over again …. and create some sexual drama.

 
Projections, Guilt & Trauma

Displaced Emotions
Many of her problems would have been exasperated by the displaced emotions stemming from the 4th house retro Mars. She was probably abused as a child in life after life, and her levels of insecurity, paranoia would have been very high, which would have led to her projecting these emotions onto everyone she was involved with, including her own children. Eventually her whole situation would have led to psychological fracturing, possibly mental illness. This would have a been a source of judgement and ridicule from the public.

Learned Guilt
She would have had judgements projected on by society for her own sexual behaviour, even though it never really harmed anyone. She was probably despised by many people. She would have been ashamed of having sex with her child, especially if that became public knowledge. And if she had been forced into a position of sexual slavery she would have felt deep humiliation. She also would have felt deep guilt that she was a failure, a person who wanted much but who actually had very little of real value.

Natural Guilt
Murdering her sons would have plunged her progressively into a deep guilt, she would have known that was against herself in a way, that she projected her own desires for control and power, and frustration onto them, even when they fought back (Mars quincunx Sun), and their deaths were unjust.

 ****************

So this is what I’ve managed to come up with, but I’m not sure if I’ve got closer to knowing why she killed her sons, and had sex with her son? And also the different guilt she has accumulated… which I do think is important to understand, as that’s what the forgiveness is for. Have I got more down into the essence of it?

Thankyou very much Rad,

Upasika
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 08:47 AM by Upasika » Logged
Rad
Moderator
Most Active Member
*****
Posts: 19857


« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2010, 01:10 PM »

Hi Upasika,

 It would be necessary, at this point, for you to understand the history of the Vesta archetype coming through time in order to correctly understand her Soul's progression through her lifetimes that had lead to what it has led too. One of the dimensions of the Vesta archetype before the patriarchy was for certain women, within the context of their tribe, clan, or group, to sexually initiate puberty age boys into sexuality. The intent of this was to teach such boys the proper orientation to sexuality with women as they became adults. This is where the history of this women starts, and it the meaning of her Vesta in Gemini ruled by the Mercury in Gemini in oppositions to her Mars in the 4th, which is ruled by her Jupiter in the Second conjunct all those Virgo planets there: sexual initiation via the natural Vesta role.

 When the patriarchy began this natural role of the Vesta type women became suppressed. As it became suppressed this role was originally replaced by men into what is now euphemistically called the 'sacred prostitute'. Coming further through time this natural Vesta role also became the basis of prostitution in general, and specific types of prostitution in certain cultures. For example, for a period time in ancient Rome there were certain prostitutes whose main role was to initiate puberty age boys who were brought to them by their fathers.

 In many cultures at different point in their history it was a cultural norm for the mother to initiate her son(s) into the mystery of sexuality. Of course this dimension of history has been largely suppressed due to the religious/ patriarchal historical revisionism.

 We must remember that anytime that something that is natural, comes from Natural Laws, is repressed or suppressed it them becomes the basis of distortion and rage. So try understanding this women through her chart starting with her actual history going way back into natural times.

 Rad
Logged
Upasika
Very Active Member
**
Posts: 348


« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2010, 09:55 PM »

Thanks very much for that Rad,

I now feel I'm getting the hang of this chart a bit better. I've was severely sidelined by the recent mercury retro into all sorts of demands in my world affairs, but finally getting near the end of that. But I have managed to spend some time on increasing my knowledge of Hestia/Vesta in the matriarchial times and since then up till now, and soon I'll reapply myself to the chart and based on that see if I can understand her situation better.

thank you,
Upasika
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Video