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Author Topic: checking my understanding of the Evolutionary States/Conditions  (Read 21038 times)
Wendy
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« Reply #135 on: Apr 04, 2010, 06:46 PM »

I have been reading through this thread and have many questions which may already have been answered, so I hope they are not repeats.  And I am much appreciative of any answers to them.

Why is such a large percentage of the planet in consensus state?  Does this have to do with patriarchal society?

Is it possible for a 3rd stage consensus soul to utilize spiritual manipulation to get to the top of their chosen field, game?

If 1st stage spiritual is symbolized by Virgo archetype, and 2nd stage is emblematic of the Leo archetype, does that mean the stages move backward astrologically, like the nodes do?

And if the earth has  soul what stage is it in?

Thanks,
Wendy
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Steve
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« Reply #136 on: Apr 05, 2010, 01:58 PM »

Hi Wendy

Why is such a large percentage of the planet in consensus state?  Does this have to do with patriarchal society?

This has to do with the laws of evolution, as Darwin discovered.  

You could look at it as consensus is what dominates in the species.  Individuation and spiritualization you can view, symbolically, as mutations of the dominant species.    Thus there will always be more members of the dominant form of a species than in the variations that are mutating.

The key question is, at any point in time, what is the nature of what we are calling consensus.  The state of consensus is not static - it also evolves.  

If you are familiar with the concept of Yugas, the 22,000+ year cycle of the Precession of the Equinox, you may be aware there are waxing and waning eras, called Yugas, within that cycle.  The most spiritually advanced era is called the Satya Yuga.  (According to Sri Yukteswar, that Yuga lasts the longest of all the Yugas).  I asked about this once, and the answer was that during the Satya Yuga, the nature of consensus reality was what we would now call the beginning of 3rd stage spiritual.   To which I asked, well then, if the Souls know they are beginning an 11,000 year down cycle, why don't they just check out of the wheel, so to speak.  And the answer was, that is not God's intentions, and the Souls don't have that capacity.  In other words, all this we go through is not optional.


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Is it possible for a 3rd stage consensus soul to utilize spiritual manipulation to get to the top of their chosen field, game?

That depends on how you define spiritual.  If you are referring to realizations that would occur during the 3 spiritual stages, 3rd stage consensus would not be aware of these, since they had not evolved that far.  Thus they couldn't be using them to manipulate.  

If you are referring to things like black magic, sure.  There are supposedly a lot of occult rituals in things like Yale's Skull and Bones Society.


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If 1st stage spiritual is symbolized by Virgo archetype, and 2nd stage is emblematic of the Leo archetype, does that mean the stages move backward astrologically, like the nodes do?

No.  They share qualities of those archetypes.  They are not directly related to the zodiac.  The spiritual stage as a whole is a Neptune function, consensus is Saturn, and individuated is Uranus/Aquarius.

Steve
« Last Edit: Apr 10, 2010, 11:37 PM by Steve » Logged

Wendy
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« Reply #137 on: Apr 05, 2010, 05:00 PM »

Thanks Steve.  I am familiar with the yugas, although I didn't consider the smaller percentage of folks in the individuated and spiritual stages as expressions of the evolution of the species...I really like that, it helps me to understand myself better and the workings of the cosmos.

In regards to the manipulation piece, let's say a spiritualist business type person uses the movie the Secret to motivate others into buying and selling a product line to enhance their own health and wealth.  Would a personality soul type, such as, let's say an Aries type personality who is very driven in business and has some spiritual awareness in the current life along with psychic gifts, to be in the individuated state 3rd stage and in 1st stage spiritual while also wanting, desiring to make lots of money?
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Steve
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« Reply #138 on: Apr 06, 2010, 06:04 AM »

Hi Wendy

In regards to the manipulation piece, let's say a spiritualist business type person uses the movie the Secret to motivate others into buying and selling a product line to enhance their own health and wealth.  Would a personality soul type, such as, let's say an Aries type personality who is very driven in business and has some spiritual awareness in the current life along with psychic gifts, to be in the individuated state 3rd stage and in 1st stage spiritual while also wanting, desiring to make lots of money?

This again depends on your definitions of terms like "spiritualist business type person".  Just because someone calls something "spiritual" doesn't mean it is.   It is important to remember that in 1st stage spiritual you will find a person who is
- feeling very small inside
- having an overall attitude of humility and devotion
- desire to SERVE and help heal

Even in an "Aries type personality who is very driven in business".  When you look deep within, you will see these qualities within that person.  A spiritual Aries type is going to take Aries energy and apply it to courageously initiating new activities that will benefit others, not to enhancing themself.

If they are "desiring to make lots of money", they will be thinking of using that money to do things that benefit others - start a really beautiful healing center, as example.  They are NOT going to be about collecting money to prove how successful they are.  If they have a beautiful home, they will feel motivated to share it with others, not so people can ooh and ahh about their sucess and taste in homes, but because they have a deep desire to serve.

Things like The Secret have launched  "spiritual businessmen" who want everyone to know how conscious and altruistic they are.  They may do things that look generous.  The issus is the MOTIVATION.  Are they doing it because they are driven to serve, or because they think being a giving person is cool and hip, and they want everyone to see how giving they are so everyone will know how spiritually hip they are.   That is completely different.

People in 3rd stage individuated could still have enough attachment to ego to exhibit signs of the things you are asking about.  There can be an ego associated with 3rd stage individuated.  The main archetype is to want to advance society.  They could approach that by promoting philosophies they felt would help in that advancement, and seek to profit from them.   The green economy is sort of like that - to "do the right thing", and get a big reward for self in the process.

By the time 1st stage spiritual is reached, the idea of personal reward is much diminished - they just want to serve.

Your questions illustrate why learning to recognize the evolutionary stages is so important.  4 planets in Aries is going to play out very differently in the chart of a Soul in 1st stage spiritual than in the chart of 3rd stage consensus.  And we need to know HOW that symbol is likely to play out in both of those charts.

There are so many "spiritual" books and workshops out there today that many people speak the language, the words, the concepts.  Knowing the thoughts is not the same as living them.  Far fewer people actually live them.  We need to learn to discern the difference.
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mountainheather
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« Reply #139 on: Apr 06, 2010, 11:30 AM »

Hi everyone,

How much of determining a souls evolutionary state is a projection of my own ego?
How can I trust my own perceptions if I myself have unconscious patterns conditioning what I see. Oh, I'm starting to get/feel  an answer now that I voiced this... but I'd love to hear more about this from this group.

Also, does the word "personality" have any relevance in ea language (it seems a vague term but a popular one), and if so what do we look at in the chart to see it?

Thanks ever so much, Heather
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Steve
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« Reply #140 on: Apr 06, 2010, 01:51 PM »

Hi Heather

Hi everyone,

How much of determining a souls evolutionary state is a projection of my own ego?
How can I trust my own perceptions if I myself have unconscious patterns conditioning what I see. Oh, I'm starting to get/feel  an answer now that I voiced this... but I'd love to hear more about this from this group.

What you are asking to me is the essence of why we've been having this long series of posts on this topic.  When you grasp the archetypes, the indicators, the behaviors, the nature, of each of the stages, then they become objectified in your awareness.  It is no longer about your unconscious patterns conditioning your observations.  You are simply observing, from experience, certain characteristics.  And you have learned that those characteristics are associated with certain evolutionary stages.   Thus you can increasingly see just what is, objectively, without bringing in your fears, hopes, preferences, or opinions about it.

Quote
Also, does the word "personality" have any relevance in ea language (it seems a vague term but a popular one), and if so what do we look at in the chart to see it?

EA associates personality with Cancer, 4th house, Moon.  We use that word somewhat interchangeably with "ego", representing the focal point or lens, the personality created by the Soul, through which the intended lessons of the present lifetime can be experienced and worked on. 

EA looks at the triad of the water signs - 4th/Cancer = personality, 8th/Scorpio = Soul, 12th/Pisces = God.  Water signs are the signs of emotion - the way back to God is through the emotional body, and the personality is an important part of the triad. 
Steve
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mountainheather
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« Reply #141 on: Apr 06, 2010, 06:03 PM »

Gosh, i feel a little foolish, but I guess I get it when I get it. My grasp of what the experience of ego is has never been too clear... but when I look at my own chart it makes sense.
I still wonder about how the personality reflects evolutionary state, I mean, how deep do we look.
Thanks for walking me through this. Heather
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Steve
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« Reply #142 on: Apr 06, 2010, 09:38 PM »

Gosh, i feel a little foolish, but I guess I get it when I get it. My grasp of what the experience of ego is has never been too clear... but when I look at my own chart it makes sense.
I still wonder about how the personality reflects evolutionary state, I mean, how deep do we look.
Thanks for walking me through this. Heather

Heather

The reason you are here at all is your Soul has created you, Heather, here, to work out elements of its own evolution.   The "you" that you think of yourself as, Heather, "me", the person, the personality, the one that was born and is someday going to die - the sum total of all of that is your ego, your personality.

The metaphor that is given is the ocean and the wave.  Waves arise on top of the ocean.  A wave has a beginning and an end.  Can the wave exist without the ocean?  Is the wave actually separate from the ocean or is it an integral and inseparable part of the ocean?  Can you see where, as a metaphor, the wave can come to BELIEVE it is separate from the ocean, that it had a beginning and will have an end?  That is the relationship between Soul and personality - otherwise called your humanness, in total.  Every part of you that thinks it exists somehow outside of its Soul, with a life of its own - that in sum total is your ego, which is the same thing as your personality, your human identity.   That in reality is not who you are at all.  It simply appears to be that way, and most of us believe it beyond the shadow of a doubt.  That does not make it ultimate truth.  

We are talking here not about intellectual knowledge, beliefs.  We are talking about emotional moment to moment reality.  You most likely believe "we are all one".  The issue is, what % of the time do you actually EXPERIENCE us at all one, not just see it as a thought?  The part of us that does not experience that as our emotional reality is the human, personal, personality, ego.
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mountainheather
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« Reply #143 on: Apr 08, 2010, 12:13 PM »

Hi Steve, I have to laugh at myself, page one of Pluto 1 talks about personality!  I apologize to you and the group if I'm too slow for this... I really have been reflecting on these teachings, dusting off my perceptions...

Hopefully this will help others too, here's Jeffrey's words from  page 1 Pluto 1

"... the Soul manifests a personality that has a subjective consciousness and unconsciousness.  Saturn defines the boundary of our subjective consciousness-that of which we are consciously aware.  Uranus represents the individualized unconscious, Neptune the collective unconscious and Pluto the Soul itself. Each personality that the Soul manifests, from lifetime to lifetime, has an ego(moon) that serves as a focusing agent to create one's own self image.... Each personality has an intrinsic nature, an orientation that experiences life in its own unique way. Each personality that the Soul manifests relates directly to the evolutionary necessities of the Soul.   THe Soul through the personality must experience life in particular ways in order to grow and evolve.  Each personality created is directly linked to the past evolutionary and karmic history of the Soul."

Then he goes on to talk about the two coexisting desires of the soul.

I think where I have been having trouble is in realizing that the personality is a reflection of the soul, that the soul has chosen that expression to learn something...I have been thinking that the soul is hidden by the ego or the personality... that somehow if we look at the surface or the ego-personality, we will not see the state of evolution of that soul, that it doesn't give reliable information about the deeper desires emanating from that soul, or about their evolutionary state.  I always want to skip to the current where God is and not emphasize the ego, because thats where the confusion can be for me.
For example, I am a bodyworker, and when I am listening to a person tell me what is occurring for them I listen, knowing that once they get on the table, the story their body tells may be aligned with what they've told me verbally or not  and everything in between... so what is always open for me is that what someone says  or perceives as themselves, may not be the whole story.  In that, my choice has been to go to the pure goodness that is in the body to find love  where it is and go there and not focus on the restrictions too much, because I can get too fixated on problems and lose the deeper current of goodness.  I think this is what is happening for me with this, I am resisting seeing the reality of separation... and consequently cannot get the rest of the picture... but I'm praying I will.

Do you recommend some tutoring with Deva, or maybe having more one on one with my own chart to work on this? Thanks you for your help. Heather

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Steve
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« Reply #144 on: Apr 08, 2010, 04:52 PM »

Heather

Especially as you are a body worker, you can not underplay the importance of recognizing the extent of wounding and trauma that has occurred in all Souls during the last 8 to 10 thousand years of patriarchy.  Jeffrey said 80% of all Souls incarnating today are born with PTSD (to varying degrees), caused by unresolved inner traumas experienced in past lives. 

My experience has been the majority of people are so dissociated from their actual emotional reality, they don't even know this about themselves.  So many people have created personas that are looking for the goodness in life, and being positive, and see the best and the miracles all around them all the time.  Thus they are really tuned out from much of their inner reality.  In a sense, living in states of denial.  That denial in many cases is a survival tactic.  The degree of pain hurt wounding betrayal etc that has been experienced is too painful too face.   Thus they split off (dissociate) from their emotional bodies.

I'd imagine the majority of people on your table who you ask "how are you" respond from a surface level.  To quite a degree, your deeper work is getting them in touch with the parts of themselves they don't want to face.  What is needed is an integration of the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual.  Most people hang out in the physical or mental, since it is easier and less painful.  The hardest place is the emotional body, and that is where the key to reintegrating the various bodies is usually found. 

You can't just listen to what people are telling you.  Your fingers tell you the real story of their reality.  You feel their pains, traumas, disowned places, etc.  How do you know what portions of what you feel are real and what are "your conditioned ego", as I think you put it?  If you are honest with yourself, you will just know.  You will feel things you have no other way of knowing, and what you feel will be the actual reality.  Sure you could introduce a small amount of distortion into the process, but even so you will be 80% accurate.

The issue becomes, how do you get through to someone that the actual reality you experience them living is very different than the one they tell you they live in?  That is where counseling skills come in.  Few people can take more than a small amount of that in at one time.  The actual reality is potentially traumatizing and must be experienced gradually.  So you must go slow.  Building up trust with a person, being gentle, moving slowly, are the keys.  People have been wounded and betrayed over and over.  They need to come to trust you before they can consider what you have to say. 

At the same time, you can't doubt your perceptions, even if the person tells you that you are off base.  Because you feel what you feel.  You won't always know know why you feel it, or what you are supposed to do with what you feel. None the less you know it.

You can apply these principles to determining someone's evolutionary stage.   You are going to have intuitions.   Much of this is about turning off the analyzing left brain, and just feeling what you know without knowing how you know it.   That is the definition of intuition (Sag / Jupiter / 9th).  I encourage you to try intuiting evolutionary stages, and then checking out your intuitions.

Of course you can get tutoring from Deva.  However, is that going to offer anything new, or just be more information poured into your left brain, added to what is already in there?  Will this clarify things or possibly even further confused you?  (I can't answer that question).

The best way to learn this is stop thinking about them, and start practicing them.  Make your own mistakes, draw your own conclusions.  You already have people coming to see you regularly. You could practice on your bodywork clients.  You don't need their birth data.  Ask them questions to determine evolutionary stage.  Listen for key phrases that could be tipoffs, now that you are learning the archetypal signatures of each stage.  If they ask what you are doing, tell them you are practicing something new and the questions are just for your own education.

No one can teach you how to do this.  You have ingested the information.  Then you have to start practicing.  That is how you will learn.   Asking questions of people whose charts you aren't reading makes it safer, because even if you are wrong, its not going to harm them in any way.  Its just information.  Vs interpreting their chart based on the wrong stage.  All you are doing is observing them - no harm done.
Steve
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mountainheather
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« Reply #145 on: Apr 09, 2010, 02:23 AM »

Thanks Steve for the support, I'll take it slow with myself too, ea material is intense for me at times.
...I had a thought that learning about the evolutionary states is like remembering them, that our bodies  remember other evolutionary states of our soul...
like a dream, best remembered by feeling my way through. Much for me to practice and ponder with this , thanks again for giving me some time and attention.  Heather
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Steve
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« Reply #146 on: Apr 11, 2010, 02:47 PM »

Hi

Someone asked the other day if we could discuss 2nd stage individuated.  I couldn't find the original post where the question was asked so adding this new one.

To review - 1st stage individuated is Souls who no longer fit into consensus reality.  Especially in the beginning stages, this is an insecure process, because they realize on some level that they will be rejected by consensus reality if they reveal who they really are.  So they often pretend to be in consensus reality even though they know they are not.  Thus a key archetype here is "living a lie".  They know they are not who they are pretending to be.

3rd stage individuated is Souls who have discovered their unique individuality, and are seeking to play it out.  A key archetype here is the desire to transform the world, to move society forward.   This is a core Uranian archetype.  They will be seen as ahead of their time, holding progressive ideas seen as strange by the mainstream.  Some will exhibit forms of social genius.  They are incapable of going back to consensus reality.

What lies in between 1st and 3rd stage?  Or, what are the stages through which a 1st stage individuated Soul reaches 3rd stage individuated?

One of the first obvious things that must happen is they must come to ACCEPT their individuality, that they are different, that nothing they can do will stop them from being different.  Being different continues bringing no acceptance from the consensus.   There is still a core insecurity about being different and not being accepted by the consensus.  So they go to almost the other extreme.  They carry themselves in such ways that everyone who sees them will KNOW that this person is different and does not fit in.  They may dress differently, eat differently, talk differently, work differently.   They may adopt habits and modes of living that are specifically designed to separate them from the typical way consensus expects such things will be done.  In other words, they make themselves stand out as different, so that anyone who subscribes to consensus values will immediately know that this person doesn't.

Because of the underlying lingering insecurity, they will activate the Aquarian principle of like minded friends.  They will seek out fellow rebels.  They will form groups, packs.  Within those groups, new standards of dress, behavior, attitude will arise.   That is, an Aquarian consensus will develop among the group of rebels.   Those who do not conform to the Aquarian consensus standards will be rejected by the group.   Thus it is, in a sense, a mini version of consensus except only for people who are cool enough to make it into their club, whatever that club is.

Typically there is a permeating anger in 2nd stage individuated people.  They are angry the world is the way it is.  On one level they are angry that they CAN'T fit into consensus reality, because that creates much insecurity deep within.  On another level they are angry THAT the world is predominantly consensus reality, because it is so boring and conforming and uncool. 

They don't want to change the world.  The groups of rebels stand on the sidelines criticizing consensus reality, how stupid and limited everything is.  They refuse to play any part in the world.  They just want to hang out in their sub-culture of rebels who tear everything down but offer little constructive to replace it.  One reason they don't get involved in changing anything is their deep unrecognized fear that if they did get involved in anything they might get pulled back into consensus.  In reality that wouldn't happen, but the Soul has not yet fully realized that.  By the time it does, it has reached 3rd stage individuated.

Many people in sub-cultures, even motorcycle gangs, can be in 2nd stage individuated (not every person in such sub-cultures is 2nd stage individuated - there are no hard and fast rules). 

The key archetypes to look for include
- deep permeating anger (may not always be visible on the surface)
- deep criticism of the way things are, but no real efforts made to change anything
- tendency to conform to the alternate customs of the subgroup they are identifying with
- underlying fear of getting pulled back into consensus if there is too much exposure to society at large
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Dhyana
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« Reply #147 on: Apr 11, 2010, 03:49 PM »

These description are so helpful!
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Dhyana
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« Reply #148 on: Apr 14, 2010, 11:16 PM »

I HAVE BEEN WONDERING ...WOULD  A PERSON AT ANY STAGE, RECOGNIZE, ATLEAST ON SOME LEVEL, A 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL PERSON?   OR WOULD IT TAKE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EVOLVING  OF THAT ONE WHO CAN  RECOGNIZE OR SENSE SOMETHING?  

WHAT STAGE PERSON WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE EVEN SEE A GLIMMER OF THE ONE WHO IS IN 3RD STAGE SPRITUAL.

FOR EXAMPLE, LETS USE A 2nd or 3RD STAGE CONSENSUS PERSON -- IF AN ENLIGHTENED 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL BEING  RAN INTO THEM AT THE GROCERY STORE (not like this is a common occurance or there are many around or anything --i am just trying to get to the point), WOULD THE 2nd or 3RD CONSESUS PERSON, FOR EXAMPLE, SENSE ANYTHING?   -- OR WOULD IT JUST BE LIKE  "ANOTHER REGULAR PERSON" IN THE CROCERY STORE TO THEM?

CURIOUSLY,
DHYANA
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Steve
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« Reply #149 on: Apr 14, 2010, 11:32 PM »

I HAVE BEEN WONDERING ...WOULD  A PERSON AT ANY STAGE, RECOGNIZE, ATLEAST ON SOME LEVEL, A 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL PERSON?   OR WOULD IT TAKE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EVOLVING  OF THAT ONE WHO CAN  RECOGNIZE OR SENSE SOMETHING?  

WHAT STAGE PERSON WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE EVEN SEE A GLIMMER OF THE ONE WHO IS IN 3RD STAGE SPRITUAL.

FOR EXAMPLE, LETS USE A 2nd or 3RD STAGE CONSENSUS PERSON -- IF AN ENLIGHTENED 3RD STAGE SPIRITUAL BEING  RAN INTO THEM AT THE GROCERY STORE (not like this is a common occurance or there are many around or anything --i am just trying to get to the point), WOULD THE 2nd or 3RD CONSESUS PERSON, FOR EXAMPLE, SENSE ANYTHING?   -- OR WOULD IT JUST BE LIKE  "ANOTHER REGULAR PERSON" IN THE CROCERY STORE TO THEM?

Think this through.  To what degree is a 3rd stage spiritual person going to be conforming to any consensus standard or values?  (Your answer should be "not at all"). 

A second or third stage consensus person is DEFINED by conforming - that is WHO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS.  They value SAMENESS.

A 3rd stage spiritual person person, to them, is the essence of DIFFERENT, even if they dress and groom the same as "normal people".   They are carrying, within, a very strong spiritual intensity.  This intensity radiates out of the person, subconsciously, and creates an uncomfortableness in others whose life is defined by NOT looking at themselves.   It creates an unconscious reaction in them of feeling threatened.  Nothing they can put their finger on.   That intensity of energy is like holding a mirror in their face. 

Since most such people have a vested interest in remaining the same, they will not experience that person as just a regular person in the grocery store.  They will of course proceed to deny justify and rationalize what happened, as soon as they possibly can, to sustain their status quo. 

Of course, the occasional consensus person will find themselves ATTRACTED to that intensity - it is one way that evolution can occur - a light goes on - "what was that".  But not the majority.
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