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Author Topic: checking my understanding of the Evolutionary States/Conditions  (Read 23252 times)
PamS
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« Reply #45 on: Mar 10, 2010, 10:10 AM »

Wow,

what a dialogue, this is terrific!

I just have two things to say , Ellen, Oprah has a Neptune in Libra in the 10Th square the Nodes which is a skipped step, with the resolution Node being the SN in cancer in the 7th house.  Which to me in the consensus states moving into individuated would be a skipped step of vision and actually having inner authority.  She could have in past lives been a authority in a consensus church and is now slowly evolving out of that by developing an inner authority (10th house) of a bigger vision of the life (Neptune), that includes the social other (Libra).  The back and forth of the 1st house 7th house axis could produce the evolutionary intent of breaking through (Neptune) of new ideas and inspiration that give her a whole new inner authority, that dissolves (Neptune) previous was of finding authority in the world. 

Also as Steve said money lack of or having an abundance of is not the issue, its Oprahs relationship to the money that my feeling is that she thinks that is the only way to make things happen in the world...  A spiritual stage person would know that money is like anything else a material, that it is in flow.. manifestation can occur with many different materials... not being attached to the power of money as the only form of power and change, is what a spiritual states teacher would embody Oprah, talks about living in the now etc, but my experience of her is that she thinks money is what makes the world go round ....  ( I am simplifying this as I don't have the time right now to do into great depth).

Goodness there are yogis in India who live off a glass of milk a day that's it they manifest nutrition from meditation and the energy that is around them...  goddess knows that is not my path in this life, but life is really really big, beautiful...

Adina,  I saw Oprah on Barbara Walters and she said, that she had destiny for greatness... That was only ego talking....

Also all this takes time and practice, practice... be gentle with yourself !

have a nice day,

pam
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adina
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« Reply #46 on: Mar 10, 2010, 10:25 AM »

Yes, what a great discussion, indeed!

Pam, thanks for identifying where that Oprah quote came from. I had it written down for some reason, but without the source, and I agree wholeheartedly that it's pure ego behind that statement. I remember what Jeffrey said in the original Pluto school, "Those that really have it (the actual realization behind their teachings that lead to "fame" etc., because of the knowledge, not as the goal) don't WANT it."
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Steve
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« Reply #47 on: Mar 10, 2010, 11:47 AM »

Hi Upasika

... Seems more and more that talking lots with the person and asking many questions before or at the beginning of a reading is unavoidable in many cases to precisely ascertain the stage/substage correctly...takes up a lot of time. I know sometimes it is obvious, and easily intuited or they kind of spell it out for you just by being who they are, but often something of a mini spanish inquisition seems necessary! The hardest one I find to pick is 1st stage individual, because of the compensation element inherent.

I agree with Adina that accurately determining evolutionary stage is one of the more difficult parts of doing EA assessments.  I had a lot of trouble with that in the beginning.  Still learning in fact, but my accuracy has improved over the years. 

I've learned to listen for tell-tale words, beliefs, orientations that become the clues to seeing how someone's consciousness is oriented.  That is why I've been writing these posts as I have, emphasizing its more about inner orientation than external circumstances.  As I started understanding that, it became much easier to place people accurately.

I've had experiences with 1st stage indiv where someone who appears "normal", in my presence starts discussing beliefs that are well outside the range of consensus beliefs.  That I've found is a tipoff.   Another is, an astrologer is unlikely to see many consensus people thus in most cases (not all, however) whoever is in front of you is at least 1st stage indiv.

I've also become aware of an effect called Pisces/Neptune/12th house Hiding, where those archetypes tend to mask who they really are.  At its extremes this can create a 1st stage spiritual person you could even confuse with consensus, so again it comes back to inner listening a lot more than what you are seeing on the outside.  There are reasons for that hiding, also, which can be seen in the chart, and those reasons often need to be brought out during the reading as they can be an important part of the evolutionary signature.

Another tricky assessment is the cusp of two stages.   I see many people transitioning from 3rd stage indiv to 1st stage spiritual for example.  They will exhibit characteristics of both while seeming to fit neatly into neither.  The transition is why.  A soul engaged in a transition like that is going to be facing a unique range of archetypes and feelings (culminations and new beginnings), and their chart needs to be interpreted in relation to that inner reality they are experiencing. 
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #48 on: Mar 10, 2010, 04:55 PM »

Wow,

what a dialogue, this is terrific!

I just have two things to say , Ellen, Oprah has a Neptune in Libra in the 10Th square the Nodes which is a skipped step, with the resolution Node being the SN in cancer in the 7th house.  Which to me in the consensus states moving into individuated would be a skipped step of vision and actually having inner authority.  She could have in past lives been a authority in a consensus church and is now slowly evolving out of that by developing an inner authority (10th house) of a bigger vision of the life (Neptune), that includes the social other (Libra).  The back and forth of the 1st house 7th house axis could produce the evolutionary intent of breaking through (Neptune) of new ideas and inspiration that give her a whole new inner authority, that dissolves (Neptune) previous was of finding authority in the world. 

Hi Pam,
Thank you so much for this.  It makes perfect sense to me and completely clears up the matter.  That is what I was really struggling with - how to interpret her chart in a consensus way.  Now that I've seen it, it makes much more sense to me.


Also as Steve said money lack of or having an abundance of is not the issue, its Oprahs relationship to the money that my feeling is that she thinks that is the only way to make things happen in the world... 

Yes, I completely agree with this!  Again, you've said it in a way that just completely clicks.


A spiritual stage person would know that money is like anything else a material, that it is in flow.. manifestation can occur with many different materials... not being attached to the power of money as the only form of power and change, is what a spiritual states teacher would embody Oprah, talks about living in the now etc, but my experience of her is that she thinks money is what makes the world go round ....  ( I am simplifying this as I don't have the time right now to do into great depth).

Ditto.  That's exactly it - "she thinks money is what makes the world go round..."

Goodness there are yogis in India who live off a glass of milk a day that's it they manifest nutrition from meditation and the energy that is around them...  goddess knows that is not my path in this life, but life is really really big, beautiful...

Yes, I know that this is true.  Based on what you said above, the issue feels really settled for me re: Oprah.  I feel like I finally get it.  But this last statement above still leaves me with the general question that I posed through the story about the prince.  He led a wanton life, was put to death, was revived by his guru (apparently this case is documented in the legal system in India).  There is nothing in this story that I remember (I read it a number of years ago) that indicates the prince's evolutionary condition.  I have been assuming that since a guru was interested in him, he must be more advanced.  But I think that is the error I am making - to make that assumption about his evolutionary state.  That would solve the riddle for me, anyway...  Perhaps you or others have thoughts on this....

Peace,
Ellen


Adina,  I saw Oprah on Barbara Walters and she said, that she had destiny for greatness... That was only ego talking....

Also all this takes time and practice, practice... be gentle with yourself !

have a nice day,

pam
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Elen
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« Reply #49 on: Mar 10, 2010, 05:25 PM »


The reason for the 3rd consensus/2nd spiritual discussion was that somewhere in the thread someone explained 2nd stage spiritual as one who believes they have the ONE truth and so feels the need to convince and convert others to that truth, which is why they experience the downfall. (Reply no. 20 by Ellen).

Hi Adina and All,
Sorry if I gave the impression that I considered my outlines definitive.  My intention in posting them was to clarify my understanding.  I have greatly appreciated the feedback and dialog that has occurred here.  It has given me better understanding of the stages.

Peace,
Ellen

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Elen
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« Reply #50 on: Mar 10, 2010, 05:34 PM »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for posting the bio re: Rajasi Janakananda.  It really gives great perspective on wealth, ie, how one is relating to it on an inner level.  I also noticed a sense of peace within while reading it, which I think is a clue to these matters that I forget about.  So again, it is nice to have this story as a reference point.

Peace,
Ellen
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adina
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« Reply #51 on: Mar 10, 2010, 07:27 PM »

Ellen, there's absolutely NO need to be sorry. You brought up some very good issues and concerns related to the evolutionary stages; you got a good dialogue started on a difficult topic.

Oh, I think I see what you're saying, and yes, my original answer was to because I knew you were trying to clarify your understanding. If I wrote that last post that points to yours in a way that seemed offensive or hurtful, I'm truly sorry, for that was not my intent. My intent was to breifly explain the earlier posts so the next person could see where we were coming from.

Again, you brought a very difficult subject to the forefront and got a good discussion going. Thanks for doing that, Ellen!

Blessings,
Adina
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PamS
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« Reply #52 on: Mar 10, 2010, 08:45 PM »

Hi Ellen,

Yes Im with Adina, you are doing terrific!  My experience of this kind of knowledge is that no matter I need to taste the truth of it for myself...so teasing out the difficult parts is part of the process.....it helps everyone....\


I think the prince story is deep... I mean think about your own internal processes over life times, when I am in a past life regression I bring back to life all the parts of me that lived wanton lives.. I have lives where I did some fairly nasty things, the guru inside me embraces them no matter what. 

Im taking Jeffrey out of context, but as I think he said, sometimes the prostitute in this life was a pious nun in the last.   The soul has to experience alll the different forms of sexuality...and maybe the nun thought sex was bad so a few life times down the soul experiences its own shadow.....  I also think to me it seems the past lives do not work in a linear order..  But you get my idea around the story, anyways that is what popped up for me when I read it....  Actually as im sinking into it, the story means so many different things.. but i also want to know what you think of it......

take care,

Pam



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Elen
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« Reply #53 on: Mar 11, 2010, 04:11 PM »

Ellen, there's absolutely NO need to be sorry. You brought up some very good issues and concerns related to the evolutionary stages; you got a good dialogue started on a difficult topic.

Oh, I think I see what you're saying, and yes, my original answer was to because I knew you were trying to clarify your understanding. If I wrote that last post that points to yours in a way that seemed offensive or hurtful, I'm truly sorry, for that was not my intent. My intent was to breifly explain the earlier posts so the next person could see where we were coming from.

Again, you brought a very difficult subject to the forefront and got a good discussion going. Thanks for doing that, Ellen!

Blessings,
Adina


Hey Adina,

Thanks - for everything!  The virtual world isn't always the easiest to decipher, so thanks a million.  Sorry for misunderstanding.  But I'm glad I had the opportunity to clarify my intention.  I was also (like you but for different reasons) a little concerned that others reading the posts later might mistake where I was coming from - I wanted it to be clear that my outlines weren't meant to be definitive statements as that assumption would lead to confusion re: basic principles.

So sorry again for misunderstanding.  I did understand very much that you were wanting to help Dhyana understand the thread re: 3rd Consensus and 2nd Spiritual and I appreciated that very much.  And I very much appreciate now that that was truly your only intention.

Thanks so much for your encouragement.  I really appreciate it.  Also, thanks, generally speaking, for your posts here and elsewhere.  I really value your guidance.

Peace,
Ellen
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2010, 04:32 PM by Ellen » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #54 on: Mar 11, 2010, 04:29 PM »

Hi Ellen,

Yes Im with Adina, you are doing terrific!  My experience of this kind of knowledge is that no matter I need to taste the truth of it for myself...so teasing out the difficult parts is part of the process.....it helps everyone....\


I think the prince story is deep... I mean think about your own internal processes over life times, when I am in a past life regression I bring back to life all the parts of me that lived wanton lives.. I have lives where I did some fairly nasty things, the guru inside me embraces them no matter what.  

Im taking Jeffrey out of context, but as I think he said, sometimes the prostitute in this life was a pious nun in the last.   The soul has to experience alll the different forms of sexuality...and maybe the nun thought sex was bad so a few life times down the soul experiences its own shadow.....  I also think to me it seems the past lives do not work in a linear order..  But you get my idea around the story, anyways that is what popped up for me when I read it....  Actually as im sinking into it, the story means so many different things.. but i also want to know what you think of it......

take care,

Pam





Hey Pam,

Thanks so much for your post.  I very much appreciate your words of support.

RE: the story about the prince.. I'm not sure what to make of it.  I mean, I absolutely accept that it is true.  I have no reason to doubt its veracity given the source and given my basic acceptance that we, ie, most of us contemporary humans, are pretty much clueless about what is truly possible in life.  To me, a lot of my understanding of the story in terms of evolutionary condition hinges on this idea of who does a (genuine) guru take on as a student - all stages, just individuated and up, etc.  In terms of how the story impacts me personally, well, I'd definitely like to know more about the prince's own process re: grappling with his past - I mean, I'm assuming that living that wanton life was absolutely essential for his evolutionary development.  So, was it just a matter of getting it out of his system, then he could finally be done with it?  (To me, this then becomes relevant with regard to Oprah...)  Was there remorse he had to deal with or was he able to simply come away with greater understanding...  Things like this I'm curious about.  But I think stories are at there best when they just kind of slow brew in you.  The understanding comes when the time comes...

Peace for now,
Ellen

« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2010, 04:35 PM by Ellen » Logged
PamS
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« Reply #55 on: Mar 12, 2010, 08:39 AM »

Hi Ellen,

I think you are very insightful in reguards to you figuring out in your own way and time... My only addition is, to me it does not matter if the story is true or not, dreams sometimes are more real than life, as you probably know....  And still in reguards to Oprah, it is a deep feeling I get from her that tells me where I think she is living in herself... It does seems to me that even when people live a wanton life you get a feeling from them when you know they have lived a vast life you can see it in their eyes and in they aura.... The Guru question is complicated.... We also live in a Western context where that does not happen as often as it does in other cultures... Ive never had a guru (in this life) who has pulled me out of the world and ointened me, in a way I did it myself, my inner guru..  I understand your struggle, ..

 Oprah does something for you so follow it where you need to go, might take you somewhere interesting....

I kinda keep adding to this, as it unfolds, In past lives I have had gurus that I have worked with and my internal guru is from life times of studies...  

I still see some of your question as who decides who is evolved?   And i still think it is all really paradoxical

keep on keepin on...

blessings,

pam
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2010, 08:28 PM by PamS » Logged
Deva
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« Reply #56 on: Mar 13, 2010, 10:20 AM »

Hi, I wanted to add my input on this very important topic, and also wanted to say this is a great dialogue to have on the board. In terms of determining  the evolutionary state of the Soul mu advice is to ask questions about the person's life (i.e-what is most important to them, and why the reading, etc), and based on the person's answers you can apply the principles of the evolutionary states given in the Ea material. For example, in the individuated state, the person is going to necessarily want to actualize his or her authority within society in a way that is free from the mainstream social conditioning patterns, and reflects the Soul's true individuality. As Steve said, in the 1st stage individuated, there is a lot of fear of breaking out of the box, so to speak, or allowing others to see them as different than those in the majority (the living lie that is described in the Pluto material for this stage of evolution, and the compensation that manifests because of that fear). Yet, the person, at the same time, typically truly desires to be validated and seen for who they really are free from the social conditioning and social mask they wear. The theme in the individuated states, in general, is to break free and liberate from social conditioning patterns, and to actualize their sense of authority in society based on their in herant unique talents and gifts. This need grows increasing more intense as the Soul evolves through this stage. In the spiritual state, the Soul then desires to know itself in a cosmic or holistic context and to merge with the Universal  Source. In other words, the Soul desires to know itself as a reflection of the Creator, no longer in a societal context because the individuated process has been completed at this point in the journey. This requires that the Soul dissolves the prior egocentric identification patterns that are linked with its previous social identity in general terms (as a great scientist or psychologist or musician, etc), as the spiritualization of consciousness occurs in this state (no longer the musician but the channel through which the music flows so to speak). The point within this is that by asking questions, and understanding the current challenges the person is facing,  you can determine the evolutionary state of the individual based on what is given to us in the EA material. Hope this is helpful.
God Bless
Deva     
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Stacie
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« Reply #57 on: Mar 15, 2010, 03:42 AM »

Quote
Defined by separating desires (this was really eye opening understanding for me)

Hi Ellen,
Just wanted to provide some feedback on your outline that was posted for the consensus state.   Overall what you wrote is on point.  The one adjustment I would make is what's been quoted above.  To me this statement isn’t quite accurate because separating desires are intrinsic to all souls on the evolutionary path, in all of the evolutionary conditions. Separating desire is the cause for any of us to incarnate.  We incarnate to actualize those separating desires.  As long as there is separating desire in the soul, the soul will continue to incarnate.  The one exception are god-realized souls who have exhausted all separating desires and have reunited with the Source.  When these souls incarnate it is purely on the basis of Divine Will/direction and not separating desire. 

If in life we approach our separating desires through the areas of growth that are symbolized by the polarity point of pluto, north node, and north node ruler, this will reflect an emphasis of RETURNING DESIRE in the soul, meaning the desire to return is operating as the stronger force and is directing the actualization of separating desire.  When we approach our separating desires/intentions this way, the result will be an expansion of consciousness and development of new capacities which reflect the expansion.  If on the other hand, we avoid and resist what the ppp, nn, and nnr are prescribing, and instead maintain a fixed orientation to the past (pluto, sn, snr), this will reflect separating desire being emphasized over returning desire.  The result here is that separating desire will merely be maintained...the separating desire will not be resolved or eliminated, which of course then creates increasing stagnation in the soul.  The dynamic interplay between these two core desires can of course shift and change throughout life.  The point is that in both cases, separating desire is key to the entire process.  In life it is up to us to make the choice of whether we will approach our separating desires based on a desire to work towards our ultimate return to the Source, or to approach them in ways that will sustain and prolong our separation. 

Within each evolutionary stage there are natural separating desires that reflect the bottom-line intentions in that stage/substage.  I’m sure we can all agree that consensus state souls can and do in fact evolve ;-))  If a consensus soul is demonstrating the efforts that are reflected in the evolutionary dynamic (ppp, nn, nnr), this is a validation that returning desire is operating as the more active force in the soul.  This is why I would not necessarily say consciousness is defined by separating desire in the consensus stage. 

Perhaps what you are getting at is more about the intrinsic density within consensus state consciousness.  by density I’m referring to the natural boundary in consciousness that focuses perception on immediate physical reality, i.e. that which is knowable, connected to, and explainable in terms of time/space/matter,  This is one reason we find the archetypal linkage to material value associations in the consensus state.  It’s a reflection of the soul’s degree of self-awareness.  The term density also refers to the degree of gravity (saturn) centering consciousness in the conscious ego (moon) vs. the soul itself. 

In the consensus stage there is not yet a developed capacity to truly objectify reality or one’s intrinsic individuality.  Those things come in the individuated state.  When we connect this to the fundamental orientation of consensus perception to matter/time/space, i.e. external reality, it becomes fairly clear why these souls identify themselves as an extension of the society they’re a part of, and why the arbitrary adoption of societal norms, customs, laws, lifestyle, beliefs, time-schedules, etc.   We can ask the question, how else would these souls identify and know themselves given this natural parameter in self-awareness at this stage of evolution?

To me, the key in objectively understanding consensus souls (or any soul), as has been touched upon many times already in this thread, is the inner orientation to the intentions reflected in the chart.  There is of course the immensely complicating factor that human beings have created an absolute megastructure (society) that is built upon patriarchal distortion.  The absolute root of this distortion is the simple orientation of self-interest and exclusion.  As already pointed out by others, money of itself is not a problem.  How that money is being applied, and the reasons for it, determines if it is problematic.  Given the overwhelming magnitude of distortion that currently defines human reality right now, it’s important I think to recognize those individuals in power who have substantial influence upon the consensus population, and who are, on balance, applying their power and status to benefit the whole.  God knows there isn’t a real abundance of such individuals in this point of our history, but I will say that I personally see Oprah Winrey (since she has come up in discussion) as one example of third stage consensus power being applied more to include than to exclude, and more to benefit the whole than take advantage of that whole through a manipulative agenda of self-service.   

You also asked the question about deevolved souls.  Unless I missed it, I don’t think this got answered.  The answer is no, they do not remain stuck there.  They are simply forced to go back to the initial condition of consciousness when a soul first evolves into human form.  All capacities that a deevolved soul had are no longer accessible to them.  They can only reinstate them by repeating the work.  Because our souls retain full memory of all the lifetimes it lives, these souls know deep with themselves that they have been deevolved and that they had capacities that they no longer have.  Given the inner nature that led to the necessity of deevolution, i.e. willfull, conscious intent/choice to do serious harm to others for their own gain, they do not take the sudden and extreme limitation of deevolution well.  Inwardly they are very angry, and they tend to attempt to impose the suffering of their own condition upon everyone who is around them.  When they come to an acceptance of their condition, and resolve to embrace the work of starting over from square one, and then do that work, evolution will go forward.  As evolution is again set in motion, the pace at which these souls move through previously realized stages will tend to be more rapid than souls who are doing it for the first time.     

Blessings,
Stacie
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Stacie
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« Reply #58 on: Mar 15, 2010, 03:43 AM »

Deva,

Great explanation..thanks!
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Upasika
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« Reply #59 on: Mar 15, 2010, 04:04 AM »

Hi Deva,

That was a very helpful addition to the topic for me.

also Steve, Stacie, thanks for your last replies too, again very helpful.
 
... everything that someone adds to this topic expands it, and the subtle nuances involved in assessing the difference beween stages/substages gets more clarified, so many thanks to all...

Upasika
« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2010, 04:16 AM by Upasika » Logged
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