School of Evolutionary Astrology

visit the School of Evolutionary Astrology  web site

checking my understanding of the Evolutionary States/Conditions

Started by Elen, Mar 03, 2010, 03:22 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Lucius

Evolution in human form translates into the relative consciousness of that soul while incarnating.  Or, the state of evolution is defined by how much your 'seat' of consciousness is the soul or ego.

The senses can be or are used very differently by those who can use their soul consciousness via ego & body.  I remember (don't have VHS anymore & no transcript!) J.Wolf, responding to a question that there were 'X' many veils, in the room.  (working on memory here)  He can 'see' them.

I am currently reading the interviews with Fools Crow - he is talking about using senses differently and talks about all the senses but here is a quote I like especially:

Thomas Mails asks Fools Crow:  "Why do you decide with your heart and not with your mind?"

"If I decide with my mind I am influenced by all kinds of thoughts that fight against one another.  If I try to decide with my eyes, even though I see with love, it is hard to not be influenced by what I actually see - how people look, react, and what they are doing.  If I decide with my heart, my judgments are never harsh.  My heart takes into account the things that have hurt people - what they have had to deal with just to stay sane and alive.  I guess this can be applied to most of the people in the world.  My heart thinks about fairness, comfort and hope.  It is like Wakan-Tanka's heart, which accepts us as bones to work in and through even though none of us derserves this great honor."

That last idea of his made  me think of Taurus - and values - our only true value is that we were created by Wakan-Tanka and we do not own that value.


Elen

Hi Steve,

Thanks so much for your reply - for the clarification and guidance.  Thanks so much also to Deva and all of you who have created The School of Evolutionary Astrology and this Message Board.  What an extraordinary thing to voice one's questions/understandings and to receive back what is really meant.  Thank you.

Peace,
Ellen

Elen

Quote from: Lucius on Mar 25, 2010, 08:16 PM
Thomas Mails asks Fools Crow:  "Why do you decide with your heart and not with your mind?"

"If I decide with my mind I am influenced by all kinds of thoughts that fight against one another.  If I try to decide with my eyes, even though I see with love, it is hard to not be influenced by what I actually see - how people look, react, and what they are doing.  If I decide with my heart, my judgments are never harsh.  My heart takes into account the things that have hurt people - what they have had to deal with just to stay sane and alive.  I guess this can be applied to most of the people in the world.  My heart thinks about fairness, comfort and hope.  It is like Wakan-Tanka's heart, which accepts us as bones to work in and through even though none of us derserves this great honor."

That last idea of his made  me think of Taurus - and values - our only true value is that we were created by Wakan-Tanka and we do not own that value.



Lucius,

Thanks so much for sharing this beautiful quote and your insight re: Taurus.  I hope I can get there someday - in truth/fact not in hope or belief or desire.

Peace,
Ellen

Wendy

Quote from: Steve on Mar 10, 2010, 12:47 PM
I've had experiences with 1st stage indiv where someone who appears "normal", in my presence starts discussing beliefs that are well outside the range of consensus beliefs.  That I've found is a tipoff.   Another is, an astrologer is unlikely to see many consensus people thus in most cases (not all, however) whoever is in front of you is at least 1st stage indiv.

I've also become aware of an effect called Pisces/Neptune/12th house Hiding, where those archetypes tend to mask who they really are.  At its extremes this can create a 1st stage spiritual person you could even confuse with consensus, so again it comes back to inner listening a lot more than what you are seeing on the outside.  There are reasons for that hiding, also, which can be seen in the chart, and those reasons often need to be brought out during the reading as they can be an important part of the evolutionary signature.

Another tricky assessment is the cusp of two stages.   I see many people transitioning from 3rd stage indiv to 1st stage spiritual for example.  They will exhibit characteristics of both while seeming to fit neatly into neither.  The transition is why.  A soul engaged in a transition like that is going to be facing a unique range of archetypes and feelings (culminations and new beginnings), and their chart needs to be interpreted in relation to that inner reality they are experiencing. 
Steve

Hello All,

I pop in and out of this forum, mostly out studying creative writing and finishing the semester's culminating writings. 

Steve's quote above is very helpful for me.  With the last part of the quote addressing the very question I ask myself frequently.  Why the back and forth? 

It sounds like it is possible for someone in the 1st stage individuated or 1st stage spiritual to carry a sense of wanting to fit into mainstream structures, say a strong Capricornian role within a spiritual context (Saturn in the 10th in Pisces for instance) (Obama possibly), while at different timings through life has also deeply explored the Piscean realms (1st stage spiritual) and at different times in hiding--Neptune/Pisces/12th house hiding.

I am trying to clarify, as this aspect of EA is still something I am learning to incorporate which I would like to do more (self and clients).

Thanks,
Wendy

Steve

hi Wendy

QuoteIt sounds like it is possible for someone in the 1st stage individuated or 1st stage spiritual to carry a sense of wanting to fit into mainstream structures, say a strong Capricornian role within a spiritual context (Saturn in the 10th in Pisces for instance) (Obama possibly), while at different timings through life has also deeply explored the Piscean realms (1st stage spiritual) and at different times in hiding--Neptune/Pisces/12th house hiding.

You are not going to find someone in 1st stage spiritual having any sense of wanting to fit into mainstream structures.  You will find that in 1st stage individuated.

In terms of what you said about Obama, I wrote a reply to Ellen a day or two ago on this same thread that discussed 3rd stage individuated.  Everything I said there would apply to Obama (although its been suggested he is probably 1st stage spiritual).   He does not want to fit into mainstream structures.  He has a life purpose/role that requires him to play a role within the mainstream.  In reality, within himself, he is far from part of the mainstream.  What i said about the person required to wear the jacket and tie applies very much to Obama.  The life role he is intended to play required a lifetime of preparation that necessitated from the outside a life and lifestyle that could look like it was mainstream, but that was never the actual reality.  That was him consciously playing a role.  He functioned IN that mainstream society, but he was never truly OF that mainstream society. 

By the time someone is in 1st stage spiritual, it is no longer about what they want to do.  They realize they are a small player in a vast cosmic drama - it is their dharma to fulfill some role, like it or not.  They can resist - Pluto.  But if they have a significant role intended, their resistance will prove futile because life itself will carry them along to where they have to start cooperating.  All attempts to avoid by doing something else will not work out.

1st stage individuated is quite different.  There, significant parts of the personality may indeed want to be only a consensus person, because that is perceived as much safer.  However, within self the person knows they are not a consensus person.  This can lead to what is called the "living a lie" syndrome, where they are pretending even to self they are not who they are. 

As far as Piscean hiding, in the 1st stage spiritual the person will KNOW they are different.  They will not be pretending that they are consensus.  They will just be keeping their mouth shut so few can see who they really are, to stay out of perceived possible trouble from revealing their actual nature.

Hope this is helpful.  It is very important to grasp these evolutionary stages as archetypes, not just as manifests of possible behaviors.  Thus it is worth asking many questions, and repeating the same information as many times as necessary, until it is grasped deeply.
Steve


Wendy

Thanks Steve.  Your response was really helpful and encouraging.  I have a couple of other questions too.

Quote from: Steve on Mar 26, 2010, 09:54 PM
In terms of what you said about Obama, I wrote a reply to Ellen a day or two ago on this same thread that discussed 3rd stage individuated.  Everything I said there would apply to Obama (although its been suggested he is probably 1st stage spiritual).   He does not want to fit into mainstream structures.  He has a life purpose/role that requires him to play a role within the mainstream.  In reality, within himself, he is far from part of the mainstream.  What i said about the person required to wear the jacket and tie applies very much to Obama.  The life role he is intended to play required a lifetime of preparation that necessitated from the outside a life and lifestyle that could look like it was mainstream, but that was never the actual reality.  That was him consciously playing a role.  He functioned IN that mainstream society, but he was never truly OF that mainstream society. 

It amazes me someone, like Obama, can function in that role and not be of it.  I would have not tolerance for it.

By the time someone is in 1st stage spiritual, it is no longer about what they want to do.  They realize they are a small player in a vast cosmic drama - it is their dharma to fulfill some role, like it or not.  They can resist - Pluto.  But if they have a significant role intended, their resistance will prove futile because life itself will carry them along to where they have to start cooperating.  All attempts to avoid by doing something else will not work out.

What if the specific role is not as "big" as being the President...the soul feels its impulse to share insights, information with the world and let's say the person has been radical most of their life, taking a completely different track than most of their peers, learning to become its own inner authority and there was resistance (which I thought was Saturn--haha, that's my skipped step) and trauma (Uranus) which was part of the soul awakening to itself, and then after much dedication with trial and error the soul comes closer than ever to stepping into the next evolutionary stage (surrender deeper than before even though back and forth has been a theme) and Y appears in the road (others playing a role in fortifying the resistance), and person chooses the path of resistance and all that has been worked towards, at least outwardly is lost?  What stage is this person in?

3rd Stage Individuated is?  one who is independent of the need for validation from the societal structures?

You may have already answered this question, it's just alot to read through and conceptualize. 

Steve

Hi Wendy

QuoteIt amazes me someone, like Obama, can function in that role and not be of it.  I would have not tolerance for it.

That's because that is not your life purpose.  If it was, your relationship to that requirement would be different.  

It has been stated before that Soul in a former life was Lincoln.  Lincoln's life was terminated before his mission was complete.  Thus the Soul had to return in the same role to complete the required functions.  Who knows whether Obama is aware he was Lincoln.  Aware or not, Lincoln has been Obama's role model, since he began.  When there is a Soul necessity to do something, the person just does it.  (Or, they resist doing it).  Soul urges are very powerful, and they take a huge amount of effort to completely resist.


QuoteWhat if the specific role is not as "big" as being the President...the soul feels its impulse to share insights, information with the world and let's say the person has been radical most of their life, taking a completely different track than most of their peers, learning to become its own inner authority and there was resistance (which I thought was Saturn--haha, that's my skipped step) and trauma (Uranus) which was part of the soul awakening to itself, and then after much dedication with trial and error the soul comes closer than ever to stepping into the next evolutionary stage (surrender deeper than before even though back and forth has been a theme) and Y appears in the road (others playing a role in fortifying the resistance), and person chooses the path of resistance and all that has been worked towards, at least outwardly is lost?  What stage is this person in?

Resistance can occur in all stages.  If the person does not fulfill the Soul intentions, that is where the reincarnation principle comes in.  They come back, still having to do some form of the same lesson.  This is where indications like skipped steps (planets squaring the nodes), retrogrades, Pluto conjunct south node, etc. originate from.   They are symbols of past resistance.  (Pluto itself is a symbol of resistance, so charts with none of those also contain resistance.  Almost every Soul has tendencies to resist).  In terms of evolutionary stage, they are not going to regress from resisting.  They just are not going to advance much until they accept their intended life path.  To step out of the box, to face their fears, to begin doing what they are intended to do, step by step, even though they may not feel ready to do so.  Listening to their inner direction.  
 These things are not easy to do.  They take courage and determination.

Quote3rd Stage Individuated is?  one who is independent of the need for validation from the societal structures?

See my reply about 3rd stage individuated, the first post on page 6 of this topic - the top of the page this is appearing on.
Steve

Dhyana

QUOTE FROM STEVE -"As far as Piscean hiding, in the 1st stage spiritual the person will KNOW they are different.  They will not be pretending that they are consensus.  They will just be keeping their mouth shut so few can see who they really are, to stay out of perceived possible trouble from revealing their actual nature."


Wow Steve, you just nailed something very key here for me!  Thank you!  

Some specific questions (Q1-4) have arose after pondering that, which I hope you could answer...

--(Q1)Would this "Piscean Hiding/Neptune Masking" you've observed be even more exaggerated if Pisces were ruling the first house and then add Pisces INTERCEPTED on top of that, in house 1 (as in my chart, for example)?
 
(Q2)And then add Saturn and Chiron Rx to that 1st house Pisces(as in my chart also)? I would imagine so(it being more exaggerated), given the fear Saturn may generate and the woundedness of Chiron. So I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective. And I do notice this very strong in myself, especially now that you have put the actual words to it.

And as I ponder all that, the next questions arise...  
--(Q3)How might the "Pisces/Neptune/12th Masking/Hiding" you've observed play out in 2nd stage spiritual?...
--(Q4)And would the Neptune masking not even be a factor in stage 3 spiritual?


Thanks for your time Steve.
Very appreciated,
Dhyana

PS. Should this inquiry be on a new thread bc it is also moving into this topic of Piscean Hiding/12th House/Neptune, or is it ok to stay here under this thread bc it is still regarding evolutionary stages? Let me know bc I am still trying to learn my way around this forum and utilize it properly. I will move it over and start a new topic thread if needed.

Wendy

Hi Steve,

I totally understand the reincarnation piece in terms of resisting evolution, my question is directed more towards an individual who has been dedicated to their evolution most of their life, conscious life, and then at a critical juncture made choices which did not support that evolution, such as simple distraction rather than murder or something that extreme.

If the person is aware of the resistance that arose then and is doing everything they can to continue their evolutionary state, is it possible to still accomplish their "evolutionary task"?

I think the answer is yes, the process of achieving it just becomes delayed, unless they died before accomplishing their souls calling.

Steve

Hi Wendy

Quote from: Wendy on Mar 27, 2010, 10:20 AM

I totally understand the reincarnation piece in terms of resisting evolution, my question is directed more towards an individual who has been dedicated to their evolution most of their life, conscious life, and then at a critical juncture made choices which did not support that evolution, such as simple distraction rather than murder or something that extreme.

If the person is aware of the resistance that arose then and is doing everything they can to continue their evolutionary state, is it possible to still accomplish their "evolutionary task"?

I think the answer is yes, the process of achieving it just becomes delayed, unless they died before accomplishing their souls calling.

I'd say they can still accomplish their evolutionary task.   Most of the time, when other choices are made at critical junctures, it's from an unconscious pull from the past, unseen fears based on past events that resulted in traumas, that cause the distractions away.  Or unconscious unfulfilled desires of a separating nature that arise and create distractions.

Things like this are an inherent part of life in the human condition.  That is WHY it takes so long.

It's important to consider what has been sometimes called the center of gravity within the Soul.  How is the consciousness of that Soul defined?  Is that Soul refined to the point that its unconscious instinctual thought/behavior patterns tend to accepting its evolutionary destiny, or does resistance still dominate?

We also need to remember there's no such thing as perfection here on earth.  When we look at the lives of people we consider spiritual great ones - do you think when they died they felt they had fulfilled every last thing that had been possible and intended?  I seriously doubt it.

All any of us can do is the best we can do.  We learn to keep moving forward one step at a time.  Sometimes, two steps forward, one step back - the net motion is still forward.  As has been stated, the value, truly, is in the effort.  It is from consistent effort that the center of gravity within the Soul gradually shifts - the tendency to move forward comes to predominate, and that gradually changes the way the person responds to the challenges and pulls in their life.


Steve

Hi Dhyana

Quote--(Q1)Would this "Piscean Hiding/Neptune Masking" you've observed be even more exaggerated if Pisces were ruling the first house and then add Pisces INTERCEPTED on top of that, in house 1 (as in my chart, for example)?
 
(Q2)And then add Saturn and Chiron Rx to that 1st house Pisces(as in my chart also)? I would imagine so(it being more exaggerated), given the fear Saturn may generate and the woundedness of Chiron. So I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective. And I do notice this very strong in myself, especially now that you have put the actual words to it.

And as I ponder all that, the next questions arise... 
--(Q3)How might the "Pisces/Neptune/12th Masking/Hiding" you've observed play out in 2nd stage spiritual?...
--(Q4)And would the Neptune masking not even be a factor in stage 3 spiritual?

Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave.  You have to look at the entire evolutionary signature (Pluto, south node, ruler, aspects being made) and sense how that signature might have played out in the past and present lives.  There is no generic answer to the question.  Its unique for each Soul.  In many but not all cases you'd likely find what you said about exaggerated to be true.   
  That you are noticing it strongly in yourself speaks for itself.  What confirmation do you need beyond your own inner knowing of its truth?

My answers to questions three and four are speculations. 

I haven't observed enough 2nd stage spiritual people to make generalizations.  Archetypally, 2nd stage spiritual is spiritually full of itself.  It feels it is fully God realized.  So rather than hiding this away, it would likely be broadcasting this all over the place.

3rd stage spiritual is not hiding away its awareness of spiritual reality.  At that stage that essence/reality is that Soul's core sense of identity.

Dhyana

Quote from: Steve on Mar 27, 2010, 12:18 PM
Hi Dhyana

Quote--(Q1)Would this "Piscean Hiding/Neptune Masking" you've observed be even more exaggerated if Pisces were ruling the first house and then add Pisces INTERCEPTED on top of that, in house 1 (as in my chart, for example)?
 
(Q2)And then add Saturn and Chiron Rx to that 1st house Pisces(as in my chart also)? I would imagine so(it being more exaggerated), given the fear Saturn may generate and the woundedness of Chiron. So I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective. And I do notice this very strong in myself, especially now that you have put the actual words to it.

And as I ponder all that, the next questions arise...  
--(Q3)How might the "Pisces/Neptune/12th Masking/Hiding" you've observed play out in 2nd stage spiritual?...
--(Q4)And would the Neptune masking not even be a factor in stage 3 spiritual?

Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave.  You have to look at the entire evolutionary signature (Pluto, south node, ruler, aspects being made) and sense how that signature might have played out in the past and present lives.  There is no generic answer to the question.  Its unique for each Soul.  In many but not all cases you'd likely find what you said about exaggerated to be true.  
 That you are noticing it strongly in yourself speaks for itself.  What confirmation do you need beyond your own inner knowing of its truth?

My answers to questions three and four are speculations.  

I haven't observed enough 2nd stage spiritual people to make generalizations.  Archetypally, 2nd stage spiritual is spiritually full of itself.  It feels it is fully God realized.  So rather than hiding this away, it would likely be broadcasting this all over the place.

3rd stage spiritual is not hiding away its awareness of spiritual reality.  At that stage that essence/reality is that Soul's core sense of identity.
Hello Steve, And thanks for your answer thus far.
You say "What confirmation do you need beyond your own inner knowing of its truth?" -Well, I suppose I should have worded my question differently bc perhaps "confirmation" is not the right word. You see, It is not the inner confirmation I am looking for here, I am looking for to learn ASTROLOGY through the EA perspective and so I am asking questions to that end -- When I ask a question on here I am looking for an explanation in ASTROLOGICAL terms from an EA lens and EA LANGUAGE. That is why I wrote that as I did "  I would appreciate any confirmation of this from your EA perspective". I am looking to learn more about planets/houses/aspects etc through the lens of EA and it's lanquage and bc I am most familar with my chart and myself, I find it useful to ask in regards to it.

Thanks,
Dhayna


Dhyana

Hi Again Steve,
PS. I also wanted to add here that what I am also doing in posting questions like the one above, is that  I am trying to see, or get" confirmation" of my understanding of planet archetypes etc. It is in that context I would use the word "confirmation". You see,  I want to make sure my basic understanding of planets,houses,placemets,aspects,stages and archetypes are correct and in line with EA. That is why I metioned the planets and houses in my questions. ---simply trying to learn and hone in on the EA technicalities in astrology-

Thanks Again,
Dhyana

Dhyana

One last thing Steve,
YOU WROTE "Questions one and two can't be answered from the info you gave."

What more information can I give you so that the question can be answered? (in the context I just mentioned above)? BC that us what I am here for.

Thanks Again for ur time
Dhyana

mountainheather

QuoteAs far as Piscean hiding, in the 1st stage spiritual the person will KNOW they are different.  They will not be pretending that they are consensus.  They will just be keeping their mouth shut so few can see who they really are, to stay out of perceived possible trouble from revealing their actual nature.

Hi all, I've been following this thread with great interest and have a question about this part Steve.  Is the virgo archetype combined here with pisces.  How do the archetypes layer in the substages?... i.e. in this 1st stage spiritual case then the soul glimpses its true nature and cosmic identity and possibility(neptune) and begins the work of sorting the  the chaff from the grain (virgo)in its soul?

Thank you, Heather