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Author Topic: checking my understanding of the Evolutionary States/Conditions  (Read 21485 times)
Elen
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 05, 2010, 01:05 PM »

This is my outline for the Individuated State, though it is not really necessary after Steve's post.

The Individuated State:
Key Phrase: I REBEL
Underlying Archetype: Uranus
The need to rebel against the consensus reality
The need to reject the consensus reality as a defining principle in their overall reality

20% of any society/collective mass are in the Individuated State
How you know when someone is in the Individuated State

-will have the inner egocentric psychological experience, regardless of external appearances, of feeling or being different.

-will experience varying degrees of feeling alienated from the Consensus – of not knowing where to fit in.

-says, “I will think for myself!”


The 3 Stages of the Individuated State

Social Insecurity: 1st Individuated Stage.  It is marked by feelings of social insecurity.  On the one hand, the individual feels different/ alienated from the collective.  On the other hand, the individual does not wish to be perceived as different - thus efforts to appear normal (ie, like the majority Consensus collective), despite the reality of inwardly feeling/being different.

Social Alienation: 2nd Individuated Stage.  It is marked by feelings of social alienation and consequent anger.  People in this stage feel profoundly disconnected from society.  They unconsciously fear that their individuality will be absorbed back into the collective if they try to integrate with it, thus they remain apart and criticize society.  Eventually, however, people in this stage come to realize that their individuality cannot be reabsorbed back into the collective.  As a result they begin to understand that the value of their vision for a better society is in the effort they put into bringing it to fruition in the world. 

Social Geniuses: These are the people who evolve society by the very fact of their genius and corresponding contribution.  They fully understand that the value is in the effort and act correspondingly to realize their vision in the world.  These are the social scientists and inventors. 
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PamS
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« Reply #16 on: Mar 05, 2010, 01:49 PM »

Hi All,


Ok Steve, can we clear up this Oprah thing - I have asked about her EA stage for a long time and both Kim Marie and Jeffrey have said she is consensus... She has spent 25 years giving make overs for indivuated people turning them into Julia Roberts look a likes, that is not indivuated.  She also tells people they are victims... so Im confused.  Her relationship to money is very consensus...

I remember on one of the EA school videos, Jeffrey really touched me by almost crying about the love Ronald and Nancy Reagan had for each other, they were clearly consensus, but the love they had was a message to others and got people to think.  So would it be that Ms Oprah is in late 3rd consensus moving into Indivuated?  She is not 2nd indivuated and not 3rd, but has enough Leo to put her in late 3rd consensus making movement into something larger....

Oprah confusion....

blessings,

pam
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adina
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 05, 2010, 05:57 PM »

Hi Pam  Wink et al,

First, I think that determining the evolutionary stage of someone can many times be the most difficult part of the entire analysis, and especially now when the "New Age" information and lingo permeates society.

I wasn't present when either Jeffrey or Kim Marie stated Oprah's evolutionary state, but I agree with the 3rd stage consensus. I thought I'd add to this discussion because I had a client many years ago who had similar thought and behavior patterns (sans the fame and wealth) and asked about her stage on the original MB.  I have found that the "New Age" terminology is so wide spread and many more people are studying meditation, crystals, etc., etc., they have the lingo down pat but without the actual evolutionary experience behind it. So we have to dig a little deeper with these people, Oprah being one of them. It is also this "dipping" into the next stage, so to speak, THROUGH the meditation, studying chakras, and what have you, that the 3rd stage consensus can actually begin to and then make the shift TO first stage individuated. This is one thing, for me anyway, that helps when trying to discern the stage someone is in when they SEEM to be split between two stages. The same could be said for someone in 3rd individuated moving toward, or on the cusp of 1st stage spiritual: they HAVE to do the same kinds of things the 1st stage spiritual person would do in order to MOVE to that stage.

I thought I'd add to what you offered, Pam, because I think this is a really good example of "appearance versus reality," that's so necessary to detect for an accurate reading, and you brought up some excellent points. And like you, Steve, pointed out, Oprah does appear to be helping people move beyond the consensus, but for me, anyway, all the guests she has on her show that ARE beyond consensus are also going to make her some big bucks, and it's kind of the "thing" to do. Still, she IS helping in her own way.

As another example of these same dynamics, below is my original question and Jeffrey's answer, with the caveat that besides the alleged 20 years of meditation, the woman had studied a little bit with a "shaman," knew quite a bit about crystals, and a couple of other things. It was only over time (we worked in the same office) that the other language made her stage more apparent.

Evolutionary Stage - Third Stage Consensus to First Stage Individuated

(Q): I'm trying to determine the evolutionary stage of this client. She has Pluto at 2 Leo in in 2nd house conjunct Mercury at 1 Leo in the 2nd and Mars at 10 Leo in the 3rd. The Sun is at 26 Cancer in the 2nd. All this opposes an 8th house Capricorn Moon, which forms the handle of a bucket. The nodal axis is: South Node in Aries in the 11th house, with the North Node opposite. Venus is at 26 Gemini in the 1st house, and Mars squares a Jupiter/Saturn balsamic conjunction in Taurus in the 11th. Venus is inconjunct the 8th house Capricorn Moon. Also, Uranus is in Taurus in the 12th house. 

This is the information she wants from a reading: when she is going to get a new job (the one she has is way 'beneath' her); how much money can she expect, and what is going to happen with her social life? She supposedly has been studying with a mentor from India for the last 20 years and meditates, but has never accessed any past life information. In her own words, she has described herself as "Ms. IBM" (she works with computers) and a gray flannel bitch. She has a stuffed shark sitting on her desk, and she said "there's a reason that's sitting here." She "knows how to work the system - play the game and she'll milk this job so she can move on." She refers to herself and her friends as a "female rat pack." She was "born to be a star and will be one again." She refers to "power lunches and breakfasts," and what she wants to be is "a techie, a yuppie, with a little depth on the side." Her ideal job is working at NASA. It would appear she could be compensating, but she is so heavily invested in a power position and cash. Can you shed light on the evolutionary condition and how the meditating fits in with the heavy third stage consensus language? 

(A): I would say that she is, in fact, in the third stage consensus, but right on the edge, got one foot tentatively in, the first stage individuated; thus, the India/meditation thing.

This is an excellent and oh-so-important topic!  Smiley
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Steve
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 05, 2010, 07:11 PM »

Hi

As I stated in my original answer, I really don't know enough about Oprah to make an informed statement of her evolutionary stage.  I never watch her show and I don't pay attention to her career.  So I take back my guess of individuated, and leave it to those here more familiar with her life and show who are saying she is 3rd stage consensus. 
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Elen
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 06, 2010, 12:36 PM »

Hi Everyone,

I have a list in my mind of 4 or 5 famous people who to me seem very invested in wielding power wisely/responsibly in the world but who also seem to fit in.  It is unclear to me what their evolutionary states are.  I would like to list them here and get feedback from others re: their evolutionary states FOR THE PURPOSES OF BETTER UNDERSTANDING THE EVOLUTIONARY STATES.  It is not my intention to gossip.  It is possible that this would not be a wise thing to do.  So I would like to know if it would be ok to do this before I actually go forward with it.

Thanks,
Ellen

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Elen
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 06, 2010, 12:52 PM »

Here is my outline for the spiritual states and the 1st state.


The Spiritual State:
Key Characteristic: Universality
Underlying Archetype: Neptune
3-4% of any society/collective mass are in the Spiritual State
How you know when someone is in the Spiritual State:

People in the Spiritual State will not put down other valid forms of spirituality.
People in the Spiritual State will rightly criticize invalid forms of spirituality.

The 3 Spiritual Stages:

Bhakti Yoga (Devotion): 1st Spiritual Stage.  Souls in this stage desire to be of benefit to others.  They now understand that they are part of a much vaster cosmos/God-consciousness.  They are very childlike and humble.  They have no boundaries – no awareness of where they stop and another begins.  They appear innocent, sincere, pure and honest.  Many become healers.

Spiritual Delusions of Grandeur/Ego Inflation: 2nd Spiritual Stage.  Souls in this stage have become deluded into thinking that they have the one and only spiritual truth.  Their effort will be directed at trying to convince and convert others.  By getting others to support them, they justify their delusions to themselves.  However, there will be a fundamental discrepancy between their teachings and the ways in which they live their lives.  And, ultimately, they will suffer downfall, forcing humiliation and further purification of the Soul.

My question here is the obvious: Is there really no other way?  Could you not find some kind of practice and possibly some community of support that could see you through without giving into the temptation of ego-inflation?  Or is this the only way to further purify the Soul?

Guru vs. Avatar: This is the 3rd Spiritual Stage.  Souls in this stage become progressively more influential spiritual teachers.  Initially, their teachings reach a few people and last only a short while.  Eventually, their teachings reach multitudes and last centuries.  These latter Souls are Avatars.


The First State of Evolution:
This state of evolution can be broken down into 2 types:

The Newly Evolved (into human consciousness): this is the 1st type
These are Souls who have typically just evolved into human form/consciousness from animal form/consciousness

Their consciousness is limited to a basic awareness of occupying time and space

Typical characteristics: very innocent, very simplistic, naturally happy, inherently buoyant (because they do not know anything else)

These Souls often manifest mental retardation, cretinism and other such deformities

If you look at the eyes, you will see a film over them


The Devolved or Fallen (from higher states of human consciousness): this is the 2nd type
Souls in this state are fulfilling a karmic requirement

Emotionally, they manifest anger and rage (because they know they are now in a limited condition)

If you look at the pupils of these Souls, you will see a brilliant point of white light


JWG mentioned that Hitler had devolved into this type.  My question re: evil is, once it devolves does it stay in that state?
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ari moshe
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 07, 2010, 12:44 AM »

Hi Ellen, there's a whole lot of great material here about Evil.

You can search for the word "evil" or "luficer" in the archives: http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html

And in this mb, there was a discussion about evil:
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,91.0.html

I personally feel it is ok to share that list of famous people. My point of view is God created famous people (Leo) so that astrologers can develop more objective awareness (Aquarius).  Grin
But seriously, I feel we are capable of reading these charts with the intent to see things for how they are- and at the same time inwardly honor and appreciate these souls for being on their own journey.

I also think that to really know a soul's evolutionary state, our observations of their character and choices needs to be correlated to the chart in order to properly contextualize everything.

When it comes to Oprah- Rad, I'd love to hear your opinion on her. With Pluto in Leo in the 8th, Neptune in 10th squaring the nodes, with nn in Capricorn in 1st- we can say that it is this soul's destiny to find empowerment from within by rising to social power and influencing the masses. Maybe she's been been hiding behind her social position (neptune in 10th) but is really inside, devoted to help people awaken. She has said on her soul series (a weekly podcast she had on her website a year ago in which she interviewed spiritual teachers including Byron katie, Eckart Tolle, Mariam Williamson etc...) that every day she thanks God that she has the opportunity to serve, and she prays that she be a clear vessel. And it's not a consensus type of prayer- she's talking about awakening, and she is devoted to help raise higher consciousness.

To me this is very much symbolic of that Neptune in the 10th. She comprehends and seems to deeply GRASP these spiritual concepts. Perhaps her outer reality and talk show appearance is just a fascad this soul has adopted to in order to be capable of serving the masses? It's obvious in the gentle way in which she talks to consensus people- adjusting her communication so that she can be accesible to them.
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Lucius
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 07, 2010, 08:38 AM »

I think Oprah is a good example of having the 'new age' speak down pat.  Not to say she isn't sincere - but, she is merely repeating what she's read from a book, - like a Marianne Williamson book.  Also, these 'gurus' are the 'brand name' style 'mystics' if you understand what I mean.  They have developed a product & they are selling it - the chopras, williamsons, tolles, etc.  Not to say they also aren't sincere or have a desire to 'help'.  But, I do question these people's motives sometimes.

It also sounds rather egotistical for her to make some claim to being or hoping to be a mouthpiece for God.  Again, sounds like she feels pretty powerful - when her 'power' seems to be entirely consensus/ego based.  Pat Robertson probably claims to the masses that he, too, just hopes to do God's will.  I am skeptical about people who proclaim those types of desires to millions of folks.  Zero humility. 

'Spiritual' programming isn't the only type of programs she has, either.  In many others she shows her consensus opinions/thoughts.
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PamS
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 07, 2010, 11:49 AM »

All good points Lucius!


Hi All,

There is also another reason why Oprah, in my opinion is 3rd consensus moving into 1st.. Just to say Ari, by your description she would have to been 2nd or 3rd Spiritual and that just does not feel right for this soul.  There are a few things,
1. whats wrong with consensus evolving? 

      2.  Oprahs relationship to her sexual molestation is very victim   -   victimizer   predator   prey… its not that simplistic. Any real spiritual teacher knows at the  core there is a relationship between these two, its not just simply victim victimizer.  If Oprah was that highly evolved then she would know the relationship between these two and would casually albeit restrained put in her teachings about this.  The most Oprah does is use Freud by acknowledging that children have sexual feelings and that victims of sexual abuse have sexual feelings.  Oprah does not open up the consciousness about this topic.  Granted its taboo, we live in a repressed society  but still you can at the very least have a discussion about the complex relationship between a victim and the victimizer, She on no level goes there… she could say “its complicated” or ask casually is there “a fate” going on, that in and of itself would open a door, but she does not… I do think Marianne Williamson does do this…


I also have to bring in Steven Forrest, who even though he developed EA with Jeffrey, I was never really drawn to as a teacher but one thing he says which I do like is: that when people are in spiritual stages they are radically indivuated. Fitting in does not mean dissolving who you are out.  I feel with Oprah that she is internally consensus and all that she learns is what puts her out in the (10th house) world.  I don’t see her as radically indivated and trying to be toned down to appeal to the masses.  I think she is curious and open with her SN in Cancer new phase Uranus in the 7th with the ruler of that SN in 11th (Moon in Sag)..Her curiosity matters she also has  Jupiter in Gemini and the 6th house .. She also has a skipped step Neptune in Libra in the 10th with the SN as the resolution node.  Neptune in spiritual state is different than in a consensus.  Neptune dissolves and is multi..  If she was Spiritual 2nd the Neptune in Libra skipped steps would be to get a firm ground of having spiritual authority and not abuse it, I don’t see her on any level as someone who in previous incarnations has abused spiritual authority and is now trying to balance out that authority. Her spiritually is gained through the knowledge she gets from others….

I think she’s great and helps people….I just don’t know whats wrong with consensus? 

I could also be all wrong to, but wanted to add my input and give this some more insight. 

Thank you all for the discussion….

pam

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Elen
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 07, 2010, 01:52 PM »

Hi Ari,
Thanks so much for the references on evil.  I will check out the archives.  I've read through the discussion on this message board and don't remember anything indicating what happens to a soul who has reached the diminished state.

Thanks, also, for your insights w/ regard to considering a person in relation to their chart to better understand what is going on.  This makes a lot of sense to me.  I'll hold off on posting the names (I loved your reasoning re: famous people!).  I am thinking that I should look at them myself and see what I come up with on my own.  If I'm still baffled, then I can ask for others' input.

Ellen

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Steve
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 07, 2010, 02:07 PM »

Quote
I also have to bring in Steven Forrest, who even though he developed EA with Jeffrey

Hi - Something needs to be clarified.  Steven Forrest did not "develop EA with Jeffrey".  That is a common misconception but it is not true.  Jeffrey was out there for years, alone, talking about Pluto and EA.  Steven Forrest was writing books about Sun/Moon/Asc astrology while Jeffrey was teaching EA. 

Over the years Steven started integrating some of Jeffrey's EA principles into his astrological paradigm.  Some years later he approached Jeffrey about the possibility of their doing some workshops together, out of which books could be created.  And that did happen.  That is when the association of Steven Forrest and Jeffrey began.

Steven later rewrote portions of his earlier books to include more of the EA principles that Jeffrey had been teaching for years.

Thus the idea that Steven co-developed EA is not correct.  There are many differences in the EA Steven teaches and Jeffrey's original EA.  One of the main reasons this site was created was to be a place where the focus on EA could be back to the original paradigm developed and taught by Jeffrey.

thank you
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adina
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 07, 2010, 02:45 PM »

Hi Ellen, I'd like to offer some information in relation to your understanding and questions about 2nd stage spiritual.

Spiritual Delusions of Grandeur/Ego Inflation: 2nd Spiritual Stage.  Souls in this stage have become deluded into thinking that they have the one and only spiritual truth.  Their effort will be directed at trying to convince and convert others.  By getting others to support them, they justify their delusions to themselves.  However, there will be a fundamental discrepancy between their teachings and the ways in which they live their lives.  And, ultimately, they will suffer downfall, forcing humiliation and further purification of the Soul.

My question here is the obvious: Is there really no other way?  Could you not find some kind of practice and possibly some community of support that could see you through without giving into the temptation of ego-inflation?  Or is this the only way to further purify the Soul?

First, the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus; people like Billy Graham. Jeffrey used to say that he had "scripture realization" not God realization.  The 2nd stage spiritual person DOES actually have a toehold on the truth, but it's only a PIECE of that truth, not the WHOLE truth. That's their "mistake," if you will, thinking that one piece is the whole thing. By the end of 2nd stage spiritual (again, as JWG taught it), the person typically has experienced the first four levels of samadhi, and they DO actually have a certain amount of God realization, but again, it's only partial in comparison to the totallity possible in a human form.

As far as there being another way for the 2nd stage to play out, yes, there is! Jeffrey also taught that these descriptions of the evolutionary stages are only valid in a patriarchal reality, which, sadly, we are still living in. If we were in a different yuga - if we were living according to Natural Law - the descriptions of the stages would be quite different. Now, to there being another way: The more you are able to recover and redesign yourself according to Natural Law (and really INtegrate it) instead of man-made beliefs, the more likely that you can mitigate and/or avoid the kind of spiritual egotism and downfall of the 2nd stage. When we look at the simple terms associated with each of these, we can understand how that's true. Because man-made beliefs are based on self-interest and EXclusion, while natural laws are based on giving, sharing and INclusion, so you can see how these would make a difference in how one would experience the 2nd stage spiritual.

That said, ALL souls still go thru "purification" processes over and over and over as they evolve thru the different stages and into Self-Realization. They may or may not "look" like the downfall of the 2nd stage spiritual person, but since we all have karma from many, many lifetimes, then the process of purification is also part of our evolution, at least as I understand it. In Kriyananda's version of Yogananda's Gita, for example, he points out that even when a soul has reach the point of being a jivan mukta and no longer incurs NEW karma, it still has to work out the karma it accumulated (and has not yet dealt with) in all it's different incarnations. Sigh.... such a long trip, eh?!  Smiley  

There's so much more that could be said about all of this, but I hope this helps with this section of the stages, Ellen.

Blessings,
Adina
« Last Edit: Mar 07, 2010, 02:51 PM by adina » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 07, 2010, 03:29 PM »

Hi Adina,

What you have written is very interesting. I woud like to know more about how the evolutionary stages manifest when the world is not not in the grip of the patriarchy but more aligned with natural law. Steve indicated a little bit about how 3rd stage Consensus does,  but I'd like to know where there is more info on this, do you know where I might find that?

I'd also like to confirm my understanding of what you are saying. You say that "the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus". So how does that differ to the 2nd stage spiritual's conviction that their way to the truth is the only way? Is it that the consensus person has no actual experience of the truth whereas the 2nd stage spiritual does, that being the only difference?

thanks, Upasika
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PamS
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 07, 2010, 04:38 PM »

Hi Steve,

yes thank you for the correction,  EA was developed by JWG....  

the quote I just from steven forrest in in either Measuring the night 1 or 2.... I will look for it...

I stand corrected, please forgive my mistake   !!!


pam
« Last Edit: Mar 07, 2010, 06:09 PM by PamS » Logged
adina
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 07, 2010, 10:20 PM »

Hi Upasika,

Hi Adina,

What you have written is very interesting. I woud like to know more about how the evolutionary stages manifest when the world is not not in the grip of the patriarchy but more aligned with natural law. Steve indicated a little bit about how 3rd stage Consensus does,  but I'd like to know where there is more info on this, do you know where I might find that?

I'd also like to confirm my understanding of what you are saying. You say that "the belief that one has the one and only spiritual truth leading to the need to convince and convert is associated with 3rd stage consensus". So how does that differ to the 2nd stage spiritual's conviction that their way to the truth is the only way? Is it that the consensus person has no actual experience of the truth whereas the 2nd stage spiritual does, that being the only difference?

thanks, Upasika

I don't know of any place the evolutionary stages are explained as such in terms of natural law, but if you remember and reflect on the times of natural law being ones of giving, sharing and including, you're well on your way. You can also read books such as The Chalice and The Blade by Riane Eisler and When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone to get a better view of those times.

In relation to your questions about the difference between 3rd stage consensus and 2nd stage spiritual, yes, you're correct in that the consensus person has no ACtual experience of what we call truth / God / etc, while the 2nd stage spiritual person does. But unlike the 3rd consensus soul who thinks their way is the ONLY way, the 2nd spiritual soul does NOT think he has the only WAY; it's that she simply has a PORtion of the total truth, not the entire truth. What they know is "right" so to speak, but there's MORE to be known. Remember that old saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? That very much applies here, for in 2nd stage spiritual, beCAUSE of this partial knowledge, the soul then starts to think it knows more than it does, and becomes full of itself, so to speak. Contributing to this is the fact that the center of gravity of consciousness of the 2nd stage spiritual person is also not yet in the soul; it's still in the ego, leading to the delusions of spiritual grandeur. 

I hope this better explains the difference between the knowledge of the 3rd stage consensus and the 2nd stage spiritual. Again, the 2nd stage spiritual does not think his or her way or path  - their truth - is the only one. They DO have some of the truth, but there's more to it than they realize.



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