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Author Topic: Joe Louis/Tiger Woods - same soul?  (Read 2145 times)
Elen
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« on: Apr 06, 2010, 05:56 AM »

Hi All,

I was watching a documentary on Joe Louis and it made me wonder if Tiger Woods is his reincarnated Soul.  There are some striking similarities: 1) Louis played golf and broke the color barrier in that sport re: the PGA tour; 2) Louis had many extramarital affairs but this never became a public scandal; 3) Louis was and Woods is an amazing athlete; both embraced (eventually) by the white establishment; 4) both have amazing work ethics re: their sports

I don't know anything about determining this sort of thing from the charts, but I was wondering if others could help out with this.

Here are the links to their charts on astro databank:

Louis' chart: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Louis%2C_Joe

Woods' chart: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Woods%2C_Tiger


Some similarities:  1) Woods' ASC/DSC widely conjunct Louis' nodal axis

2)  Woods' nodal axis in Scorpio/Taurus (SN conjuncting Louis' Sun/Mercury).  (Louis, in addition to extramarital affairs, had major money problems.)

3) Woods' Saturn (retrograde) conjuncting Louis' Mars


One question:  Louis' Pluto/Mars are in New Phase.  Woods' are in LQ phase.  Does this preclude the possibility of them being same souls?

I'll leave it at that.

Thanks a lot,
Ellen
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Lucius
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 06, 2010, 08:37 AM »

Hi Ellen - not much time right now, but, when did Joe L. die?  One thing I know about correlating charts & lives is that the north node will correlate to the next life sun.  So, Joe had his @ 12 degrees Pisces (chart is kinda small to see exactly) so the expectation is that his next life sun will be @ 12 degrees Pisces - Tiger's, of course, is Cap.

I am not sure how this works when there is an overlap (I suppose Obama/Lindbergh might be good to look at) of lives.

Also, not sure if a life 'overlap' is the same thing as a simultaneous life?  I was under the impression simultaneous is somehow the 'same' person, ie, body, ego, etc. just in two (or more!?) different places.  J.Wolf wasn't too happy to go into it in detail in the original school & I'm not sure if he ever did.

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Elen
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 06, 2010, 09:09 AM »

Hi Ellen - not much time right now, but, when did Joe L. die?  One thing I know about correlating charts & lives is that the north node will correlate to the next life sun.  So, Joe had his @ 12 degrees Pisces (chart is kinda small to see exactly) so the expectation is that his next life sun will be @ 12 degrees Pisces - Tiger's, of course, is Cap.

I am not sure how this works when there is an overlap (I suppose Obama/Lindbergh might be good to look at) of lives.

Also, not sure if a life 'overlap' is the same thing as a simultaneous life?  I was under the impression simultaneous is somehow the 'same' person, ie, body, ego, etc. just in two (or more!?) different places.  J.Wolf wasn't too happy to go into it in detail in the original school & I'm not sure if he ever did.



Hi Lucius,

He died 4/12/81.  That would seem to match up with Tiger's Jupiter, but not his Capricorn Sun. 

fyi: If you click on the center of the chart, you can see a bigger version.  Also, the bios are on the 1st page that comes up.

Peace,
Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 06, 2010, 09:12 AM »

Hi Lucius,

I suppose part of the answer also rests on Louis' evolutionary stage.  Hadn't realized he passed after Tiger was born...

Ellen
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PamS
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 06, 2010, 09:44 AM »

Hi All,


I dont know 100% on this, but I think it is in the material that souls need to be pretty evolved for this to occur, meaning that Tiger Woods would need to be at the least 3rd indivuated moving into 1st spiritual.  I dont mean to be a nay sayer, but Tiger Woods is not a very bright bucket of bones, now I could be wrong.  Woods is deeply dishonest about who he is.  Woods is all about social acceptance, not hiding as in spiritual 1 sometimes.  Differentiating between dishonest lying and not knowing who you are vs hiding something about yourself is something you need to think about in regards to this.  I think Joe Lewis was a fierce competitor, wickedly smart, a civil rights activist and my guess is that he was more evolved.  

I might be wrong, but wanted to add to this...


blessings,

pam
« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2010, 09:46 AM by PamS » Logged
Lucius
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 06, 2010, 11:02 AM »

You're right, Pam!  I forgot about the evolutionary level for this to occur.

I think you're fairly square on Tiger, too.  I don't think you're being a nay-sayer, merely using your sharp discriminative intelligence. Smiley
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Rad
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 06, 2010, 12:55 PM »

Hi Lucius,

 There was a point in time that Wolf said the the N.Node in one's chart would become the Sun in the next life. As his work evolved he came to realize that this is not always true.

 Rad
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PamS
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 06, 2010, 01:45 PM »

Hi Lucius,  I love your name!

Well, im never quite sure myself, so a disclaimer I feel is what I need sometimes as I dont want to force my ideas on to anyone and i might be missing something and am open to seeing that... But nevertheless, thanks for the positive feedback much abliged!

blessings,

pam

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Elen
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 06, 2010, 03:21 PM »

Hi All,


I dont know 100% on this, but I think it is in the material that souls need to be pretty evolved for this to occur, meaning that Tiger Woods would need to be at the least 3rd indivuated moving into 1st spiritual.  I dont mean to be a nay sayer, but Tiger Woods is not a very bright bucket of bones, now I could be wrong.  Woods is deeply dishonest about who he is.  Woods is all about social acceptance, not hiding as in spiritual 1 sometimes.  Differentiating between dishonest lying and not knowing who you are vs hiding something about yourself is something you need to think about in regards to this.  I think Joe Lewis was a fierce competitor, wickedly smart, a civil rights activist and my guess is that he was more evolved.  

I might be wrong, but wanted to add to this...


blessings,

pam

Hi Pam & All,

For the sake of argument........ and for the purposes of better learning/understanding EA........

I was looking at what I thought might be "intelligence" factors in Tiger's chart.

1) Uranus in Scorpio
2) Mars in Gemini retrograde in 9th
3) Jupiter in Aries in 7th
4) Mercury in Capricorn in 5th
5) 3rd house cusp = Scorpio  (Pluto in Libra in 1st)
6) 9th house cusp = Taurus (Venus in Scorpio in 3rd)
7) Moon/Neptune in Sagittarius

To me, this seems to indicate a deeply inward-directed intelligence, ie, not necessarily something you're going to see right up front.  Is it possible that Tiger's intelligence is simply something that is not easily seen?

A couple of points of interest to me on this topic:  1) Tiger's ability to focus/concentrate is extraordinary (this could be considered a spiritual skill, yes?);  2) per his bio on astro databank, he is a buddhist and does meditate, though not as often as he used to; 3) I believe he was accepted to Stanford but decided to focus on golf; 4) He opened a school for kids that is focused on technology - his main emphasis was on building a school that would work for the kids, not one that would force the kids to do what they're told (my words, but this was my take on it); 5) As I understand it, Tiger's trying to find his own path re: race/racism; he is multi-racial and so his self-identity would not be so straightforward (Moon/Neptune on IC?)

Another note:  Louis was not well-respected by the up-and-coming African American athletes (like Ali, for example). They felt he was too conciliatory to whites.  According to the documentary I saw, Louis had to sign an agreement, the design of which was to make him acceptable to whites.  Tiger's Pluto is in Libra (conciliation?), PPP = Aries (instinctual/searching?).

I did not notice any skipped steps in Woods' chart (so 1st spiritual being confused as 3rd consensus would seem not to apply...)

Some of my thoughts....

Ellen
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PamS
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 06, 2010, 05:49 PM »

Hi Ellen,

yes I will go over this with you...  What I mean by intelligence is not an intellectual rigor, which I am sure he has, you cannot accomplish what he has by lacking in pointedness and the capacity to focus.  Lots of people in Consensus/ indvuated 1 have intellectual rigor.  

Per you question about internal  intelligence.  You I think are talking about an introverted intelligence, I do not see his chart as completely introverted and hidden.  He has a 1st house Pluto in Libra, that is not introverted (which is the ruler of the NN).    He has 3 planets in the 3rd house ( Moon new phase Neptune in Sag- as well as a Venus in Scorpio) (Venus is Scorpio as well as the SN in Taurus in the 8th would in introverted.)  He has a mercury in Capricorn in the 5th house which shows his focus but the 5th house is not a hidden house.  He also has a mars in Gemini in the 9th house.  The ruler of the SN is Venus in Scorpio in the 3rd, which is introverted- but the 3rd house is not.  As I have found and what is taught by Wolf, Deva and the other EA teachers is that you cannot tell someones evolutionary stage by the chart it needs to be observation and correlation.  

What I do know about Woods, is that his mother was/is an Buddhist, and taught that philosophy to him but being a Buddhist is not a marker for advanced evolution.  Many people in world are Buddhist and in consensus.  I also know he did not under any circumstances fight for woman to participate at the Master tournament for golf.  This man has a world of power and it would be absolutely no tarnish for him to have spoken up about the fact that a woman could participate in that tournament.  He has over and over resisted to talk about anything to do with race.  That in and of itself is not any kind of indicator, but my guess is that a person in spiritual 1 or individuated 3 would have said something.  Obama is a great example of this, he talks about the plight of being an "other" in this culture, yet does not dwell nor deny who he is.  

Also with all this stuff about his wife and these affairs which again are not an indicator of his evolution.  His motivation was a money making machine to be seen by the public as a "family values man".  His brand of family values was totally counter to who or what his actual desires were/are.. that is dishonesty. Someone in a later evolutionary stage would not be sorry for following their desires.  My experience of him when I see him talk is someone who is clueless about who he is.  He kept apologising, for what?  A person who was in spiritual 1 or Individuated 3 would care less what the public thought of him.  That also does not mean that that people in spirit 1 and individuated 3 have no feelings.  But I just don't think someone in spirit 1 or individuated 3 would sit around appeasing the masses saying how horrible he feels, just so he could get more money making sponsors, that is not an enlightened being.  Goddess knows we all make mistakes, but his dishonesty to himself is what makes me think he is not very bright.  I have never met the man, but I dont feel like this guy even know what he wants, marriage, family, hookers and sponsors as well as to get back to polishing his image.  

Spirit 1 is helping to heal people, do you really see him doing this?  I guess Im going to ask you what makes you think he is spiritually evolved, besides being Buddhist and meditating.  Or what makes you think he might be in indivuated 3- how is he a genius helping to evolve society?  

ellen you ask wonderful questions!  I also see you looking for the things and people who dont fit the rules, which I appreciate... keep on trucking!!!

the more and more I do this work, I rely on my feelings, but that is me and how I do things, I sink into them- that is how I more and  more understand these ea stages...

hope this helps,

note* i know you asked about same soul, but you need to be a the least 3rd indivuated moving into spiritual for this phenonema...  My guess is that someone who knows that process better will answer you about that more ....



xo pam


« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2010, 06:46 PM by PamS » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 07, 2010, 05:55 AM »

I guess Im going to ask you what makes you think he is spiritually evolved, besides being Buddhist and meditating.  Or what makes you think he might be in indivuated 3- how is he a genius helping to evolve society?  


Hi Pam,

Thanks a million for your answers and for your encouragement.  Re: your question above, I don't necessarily think he is spiritually evolved.  I grew up in consensus family and consensus community.  I had no role models around me who were spiritual.  What I know is consensus.  Growing up, I was an athlete who was not considered bright (I was held back in 1st grade, for example and no one encouraged me to excel in any area of life), so it is automatic for me to question assertions about people's intelligence.  Generally speaking, I ask the questions I ask because I am needing more detailed feedback/answers so that I can learn to see the differences that are inherent in the stages.  I don't have a feel for this yet because my examples in life are consensus.  Much more to say, but I have to go to work...Sad

Ellen
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PamS
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 07, 2010, 08:53 AM »

Hi Ellen,

Yes I understand , I am an intuitive thinker, SN Sag 11th house,  Jupiter in Taurus in the 4th house / Pluto in Virgo in the 8th, Mercury in Libra in the 8th  I had to grow into my left brain, people always questioned my intelligence.  So I get your questioning my asscertions.   Most of us who come to EA have been shamed and told that we were either not smart or that we did not fit in and had to pay a price for it.  Its frustrating to think that maybe we might be judging people too.  (as in my comment about tiger woods) My comment about him was more in reference to my irritation with people always talking about him, so I am sorry if I offended you.. not my intention.  

To be honest the whole evolutionary stages has been a deeply difficult idea for me, I too question the idea of people making theses asscertions on some ones soul level.  I have seen people mis-use it and use it to shame others.  Even after all these years, it still challenges me.  The only thing that has changed my mind is actually working with clients, which I have been for awhile, I can actually see them asking the questions of the stages that they are at. Also Steve said something one time that really made sense to me, the stages are about the decisions souls make.  There is a part of me that also knows that I might not know and I feel safe in that, knowing I can change my mind about some one at any time, and I know I am no authority on this... goddess and the specific  soul is...

I understand being a hidden intelligent person.  Actually my father was a professional athlete, he played professional football, people always thought he was dumb, he was not.. so I get the athlete dumb thing.  The main point in EA is to learn discernment between all these different levels.  There are many many souls who are very evolved and spiritual who barley utter a word or who are akaward.  

My thought was with your question that there was some kind of personal connection there, no problem we all do this...  I under no circumstances do I think athletes are dumb, do I think Tiger Woods is not the wisest soul, yes.  Are there athletes who are highly evolved and smart, yes.  It is complicated cause there is alot wrapped up in your questions, that I can sense.   Plain and simple according to EA, which is what we are talking about a same soul scenario needs to occur with souls that have some soul evolvement.  

Also, you are asking advanced questions, which is great but dont get frustrated by not getting the answers right off, this all takes time.  I have been studying this for almost 16 years off and on, I found Jeffreys book in early 1990s I started the home work in 2005 ish... finished with Kim Marie last year, and I still learn every day about these EA levels.  I still make mistakes, I re-group and learn and then move on.   Keep on with your studies.  It takes time to get a feel for all of it...  

hang in there and keep going Ellen, your bright and curious that is amazing....

blessings,

pam

« Last Edit: Apr 07, 2010, 09:02 AM by PamS » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 07, 2010, 04:06 PM »

Hi Ellen,

Yes I understand , I am an intuitive thinker, SN Sag 11th house,  Jupiter in Taurus in the 4th house / Pluto in Virgo in the 8th, Mercury in Libra in the 8th  I had to grow into my left brain, people always questioned my intelligence.  So I get your questioning my asscertions.   Most of us who come to EA have been shamed and told that we were either not smart or that we did not fit in and had to pay a price for it.  Its frustrating to think that maybe we might be judging people too.  (as in my comment about tiger woods) My comment about him was more in reference to my irritation with people always talking about him, so I am sorry if I offended you.. not my intention.

Hi Pam,
No problem.  I don't recall feeling personally offended in this instance (but perhaps that's because I was projecting onto Tiger and in some way defending him.... who knows?  It can get tricky sometimes...).  Regardless, my personal experience did lead me to want to probe the assertion you were making so that I could better understand it.  Given your statements about Joe Louis, it was clear to me that you did not simply assume all athletes were dumb.  But you do assert that Tiger is, so I wanted to better understand why your reasons.  In the context of this MB specifically, I wanted to get more info so I could better understand EA.  Does this make sense? 
 

To be honest the whole evolutionary stages has been a deeply difficult idea for me, I too question the idea of people making theses asscertions on some ones soul level.  I have seen people mis-use it and use it to shame others.  Even after all these years, it still challenges me.  The only thing that has changed my mind is actually working with clients, which I have been for awhile, I can actually see them asking the questions of the stages that they are at.

This is so interesting to me.  Could you possibly share some examples of these questions?  It would be incredibly enlightening for me........

Also Steve said something one time that really made sense to me, the stages are about the decisions souls make. 

This also is interesting to me and I'm wondering if you or Steve could say more about it. 

There is a part of me that also knows that I might not know and I feel safe in that, knowing I can change my mind about some one at any time, and I know I am no authority on this... goddess and the specific  soul is...

I understand being a hidden intelligent person.  Actually my father was a professional athlete, he played professional football, people always thought he was dumb, he was not.. so I get the athlete dumb thing.  The main point in EA is to learn discernment between all these different levels.  There are many many souls who are very evolved and spiritual who barley utter a word or who are akaward.  

My thought was with your question that there was some kind of personal connection there, no problem we all do this...  I under no circumstances do I think athletes are dumb, do I think Tiger Woods is not the wisest soul, yes.  

Ah, this actually helps a ton - the word "wise" instead of "intelligent".  I can definitely understand where you coming from when I make this distinction.

Are there athletes who are highly evolved and smart, yes.  It is complicated cause there is alot wrapped up in your questions, that I can sense.   Plain and simple according to EA, which is what we are talking about a same soul scenario needs to occur with souls that have some soul evolvement.  

Also, you are asking advanced questions, which is great but dont get frustrated by not getting the answers right off, this all takes time.  I have been studying this for almost 16 years off and on, I found Jeffreys book in early 1990s I started the home work in 2005 ish... finished with Kim Marie last year, and I still learn every day about these EA levels.  I still make mistakes, I re-group and learn and then move on.   Keep on with your studies.  It takes time to get a feel for all of it...  

hang in there and keep going Ellen, your bright and curious that is amazing....

blessings,

pam


Thanks for your encouragement, Pam, and for taking the time to answer my questions.

Peace,
Ellen


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PamS
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 07, 2010, 07:42 PM »

Hi Ellen,

Thanks for your reply.  Just to clarify, my response to Tiger woods initally was observation and correlation.  I was referencing more his lack of wisdom than a response to intelligence in his astrology chart.. so I wanted to be clear about that.

Im not sure what to say about the clients except if you study the evolutionary stages and really get the nuances down then then you will notice that people organically will have a resonance with one or two of the stages.  There is a classic JWG quote that if a client asks you when they will get their  BMW or when will they get enlightement that will tell you so much.  I had a slew of clients who were 1st stage indivuated and were exhibiting the characteristics of this stage.  Their questions about their life, career, spirituality were deeply in resonance with how the 1st stage indivuated would manifist... I dont know if that helps, but the more you see clients the easier it is to utilise this information. ..


What Steve said about the decisions souls make was somewhere here on this board... I cant remember where, but he alluded that the ea stages symbolise the decisions that the soul has made over life times... I thought that was really nice....


well , I hope that was some help...

your doing great!

blessings and peace to you too!


pam
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Elen
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 08, 2010, 01:31 PM »

Hi Pam,

Thanks for your reply.

Peace,
Ellen
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