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Author Topic: Abandonment and Pluto  (Read 2563 times)
ari moshe
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« on: May 18, 2010, 04:32 PM »

I've generally noted Pluto in the 4th as correlated to the experience of a core feeling of emotional abandonment. This is clear to me as the 4th house naturally correlates to the ego itself, and the natural needs of the human identity. And the intent of Pluto in the 4th is for the soul to develop emotional security from within.

My question however is, can Pluto ANYWHERE be linked to a feeling of abandonment? Is that emotion intrinsic to the Pluto archetype? Thank you
Ari
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Linda
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 04:37 PM »

Ari,

I'm pretty sure Pluto in the 8th is linked to abandonment (and betrayal and loss).
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Dhyana
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2010, 04:47 PM »

Kind of interesting...

I was thinking, having Pluto in the 7th, one of the main themes of this life is bretrayal, abandonment and loss. When I had my reading with Rad, he mentioned this to me as one of the issues of this life.

Ari mentions H4, Linda mentions H8, and I mention H7 --so--
-- it makes me think that perhaps, as Ari questioned, that maybe it IS part of the Pluto archetype, in general, and then house, sign and aspect makes it either more or less prevelant?  

But I certainly am no expert to say much. But these were just my thoughts as I read this.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 05:16 PM by Dhyana » Logged
PamS
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 05:05 PM »

Hi Ari,

Ive seen 2nd house Pluto with huge abandonment/survival  issues-  I also have seen it in the 12th.....  Pluto is the soul... I might think that house placement as well as aspects would add to abandonment issues.. I cant recall Pluto itself dealing with abandonment per say, but I could be wrong...  I think it can relate to a wound, abandonment is more of a symptom than a inherent characteristic

pam


« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 05:10 PM by PamS » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 05:57 PM »

Hi all,

Very good question Ari ...

My feeling is that Pluto will very often relate directly or indirectly to abandonment wherever it's placed, either as a primary dynamic (as with Pluto in 4th) or as a symptom, as suggested by Pam.

The reason is that Pluto represents evolution, and evolution requires change, and change usually is met with varying degrees of resistance. The more resistance the more likelihood of cataclysmic change occurring. And forced change usually feels like being abandoned, if by nothing else by the Existence/Source/God'ess (a picture that comes to mind on this level is Jesus feeling abandoned on the cross).

Of course when Pluto is in the 4th house for instance, the feeling of abandonment is experienced via relationships close to home (literally or metaphorically) and is thus highly personalised and "tangible". But my feeling is that being forced from the well (as with Pluto in 2nd) can also involve feelings of abandonment, and in fact wherever resistance to change brought about by Pluto has occurred some kind a feeling of "abandonment" is possible to be experienced. Maybe it depends on the whole makeup of individual's involved ....

Upasika
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Steve
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 07:58 PM »

Remember, Pluto rules Scorpio.  Core Scorpio archetypes/fears are abandonment, betrayal, and violation of emotional trust.  These are going to appear wherever Pluto and Scorpio appear in the chart.  Of course each person will experience them in their own way, based on their past and present.   

The nature of the fears is determined by the house and sign that Pluto is in.   For example, if its in the 5th, there could be fears of losing children.  In the 8th, partners and/or money.  In the 12th, fears of being abandoned by God/Goddess.  In the 2nd of losing money/resources.  (that is NOT a definitive list of all the possible fears that could occur by house - its a short list to illustrate the flavor of what I mean).

In most cases these fears are based on actual events that have occurred in this and previous lives, often subconscious - forgotten - which explains the compulsive nature of Pluto/Scorpio.  They are memories in the Soul, yet not consciously remembered.  The significance of them causes the fears to repeat over and over - compulsion, fears or behaviors that seem to have no logical sense yet are completely logical when looked at from the Soul's long term memory of pas events.

Also take into account the # of aspects Pluto is making to other planets in the chart.  Anything aspecting Pluto acquires Plutonian qualities.   Also consider aspects made to the Pluto polarity point, and the south and north nodes of Pluto.

As to the reasons for abandonment, I look at Pluto as a cosmic garbage collector - anything that has outlived its useful time as an agent of growth in a life, Pluto eventually takes away.  We all have many things in our life we don't really want taken away.  We sometimes hold onto them tightly. So experiences arise that force us to let go - abandonment, betrayal, violation of trust.

In a strong Pluto chart - 8th house Pluto, 8th house stelium, stelium in Scorpio, lots of planets aspecting Pluto, etc the person is so used to having things just disappear from their life, the experience becomes second nature.  They come to expect that to occur, which can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.  expecting it or not, it still hurts at times.  Its easy to get sick of those experiences of loss and just try to hold on to something til the bitter end.  Ultimately Pluto will win and whatever is being held onto will, once again, be removed.

I agree with Ari that the root of this, in most cases, is the need to become self-reliant and self-contained - the polarity of Scorpio / 8th is Taurus / 2nd.  To focus on the inner rather than getting overly immersed in relationship with others, the outer.  Abandonment is a very effective tool towards those realizations, while certainly being a harsh teacher at times. 
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Wendy
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 04:51 AM »

Hi All, I haven't been on the forum lately, but I check in from time to time and I really appreciate this post Ari!
and the specifics from Steve and everyone!

My chart is filled with all these themes, 4H Pluto in direct aspect to Venus Uranus, Saturn, Chiron and the nodes, plus I have progressed Venus and Mars in Scorpio and an 8th house Moon.  I have been realizing lately, especially with progressed Scorpio, I am really meant to get theme Scorpio thing.  The Soul piece is a no-brainier, its the embodiment of power (empowered), sexuality, and continual metamorphosis which I am learning to be in constant relationship with rather than choosing shadow Virgo.

Abandonment has certainly been a major theme in this life with compulsions, addictions that developed out of the challenges from ancient past and current life.  Early on in my healing process the deep horrific levels of abandonment came to the surface, called abandonment terror~everything felt like trauma then, though Spirit was holding me too.  Now abandonment only comes to the forefront when I have abandoned myself, of course, which still happens periodically, unfortunately.  The good news is I'm really aware of the entire pattern so most negative effects are pretty short lived.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 05:08 AM by Wendy » Logged
Wendy
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2010, 05:07 AM »

I agree with Ari that the root of this, in most cases, is the need to become self-reliant and self-contained - the polarity of Scorpio / 8th is Taurus / 2nd.  To focus on the inner rather than getting overly immersed in relationship with others, the outer.  Abandonment is a very effective tool towards those realizations, while certainly being a harsh teacher at times.  

Steve~can you say more about Venus, 2nd house Taurus polarity of 8th house Pluto, Scorpio?  

If someone has so many Plutonian themes and has learned to focus on self and service (healing, embodiment, etc.), yet still has challenges, at times, with "powerful relationships" (sexual, deep transformational), how does one live the essence of Pluto Scorpio without getting caught up in the shadow of it?  I guess this refers back to my original question?

I have Pluto conjunct Venus opposition Saturn/Chiron, so this a major thing for me.  Clearly I have had deep painful experiences (sexually, physically, emotionally) which ultimately have become my medicine, for self and others, particularly in my work, and relationships, yet I am still struggling.  

I believe I am 1st stage spiritual, reluctantly at times, running back to cusp of 3rd stage individuated.  Wit so many Scorpio Pluto themes in my chart, particularly Venus conjunct Pluto and progressed Venus in Scorpio, as a woman, I believe my soul is wanting to learn how to be fully empowered on every level and yet every time I embrace real embodiment, like grounded fire running through me, and includes being physically fit (and really sexy), whoa, the old themes come up, especially around feeling tortured, giving power away when I get in relationships.

I realize this post was not about personal charts and this is really up for me now and I am wanting to really work through this fully.  Yesterday I saw the tortured part of me, the energetic pattern, and how choice plays into it all.  Yet the old themes are really strong.

I hope this post is okay and I welcome your responses. 

Thanks,
Wendy
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 10:00 AM by Wendy » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 12:17 AM »

Hi Wendy

To me what you are describing IS the evolutionary path.  You are talking about your core Pluto patterns/issues.  It takes far far more effort, and far far longer to really make changes to these core issues than almost anyone wants to admit, or hear about.  This year I started understanding that about my own chart and patterns more deeply than I ever had.   That it can literally take thousands of years to master deeply ingrained patterns and programs.

The paradox is, this is just the way it is.  As they say, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.  And as we often say here, the value is in the effort.  One has to keep picking self back up and put self back on the path, one more time, time and time again.  We are trying to reprogram instinctual habitual patterns that have ruled us, often for many many lifetimes.  It is NOT easy.  Admitting that, accepting that, honoring that, are huge steps along the way .

As far as 2nd house polarity, that is Taurus stuff.  The opposite of osmosing from others.  It's being self-contained, self-reliant, self-responsible, in good relationship with self first.  Its really no more complicated than that. 

As far as giving up power in relationships, some of it comes down to better choice making in picking potential partners, of looking deeper before getting overly involved, to see if the person has the capacity to go where you would like to go.   Ideally that capacity is quite developed BEFORE entering the relationship.  The old pattern would most likely be this is not the case, and the temptation to give in to temptation, yet again, would be quite strong.  If one of your core issues is giving your power away, you want the kind of partner who won't let you do that, bottom line.  That takes a pretty spiritually mature person who keeps pointing you back to yourself. 
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Wendy
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 12:42 AM »

Thanks Steve so much.  The power piece is really related to a lot of past life trauma and a strong shakti vibe.  Since transiting Pluto approached my 7th house and moved into the 7th house, it has been more in my face so to speak, coming into more intimate relationship with "powerful" folks, who seem to really push those buttons for me, and having to utilize my discernment with ever so much clarity.  I guess I planned it this way to help me release the "shadow desire" to remain small and get into relationship with those who are not in my best interest ultimately.  Lucifer must play a big piece in this too for me.

Thanks again.  I really appreciate it.

Wendy





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