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Author Topic: Retrograde Planets and Stages of Evolution  (Read 7589 times)
jamo
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« on: Apr 02, 2009, 11:21 AM »

Hello All,

I have a question in regards to retrograde planets.

A person with many retrograde planets in aspect to Pluto - Can they appear to be moving through several stages of evolution in one life as they resolve issues around retrograde planets? I have counseled clients with many retrograde planets over a period of time and have found that they appear to make great "evolutionary leaps" as retrograde issues resolve.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
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Deva
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 03, 2009, 08:43 AM »

Hi, great question about rx planets. What I know is that retorgrade is an archetype within itself. In other words, when any planet is rx is reflects a specific evolutionary/karmic dynamic within the Soul that conditions how that planetary function will be expresses/acted out. In the Pluto material it states that rx symbolizes that the specific areas within consciousness indicated by the house and sign position of the planet that is rx is being relived, or repeated, in order to be fully resolved. There is an individuated impulse reflected by the rx position. The planetary function must be given an individualized application and meaning independant of cultural/mainstream society. In other words, if I have Venus rx I must define FOR MYSELF the meaning and values that I have for any relationship. In fact, those that have Venus rx typically cannot relate to the traditional/mainstream types of relationships and tend to withdraw within themselves (Taurus co-rulership of Venus) in order to accomplish the individuation process that must occur from an evolutionary standpoint. They are defined through the Taraus side of Venus, not the Libra side (this is from Pluto vol 2).  The point within this is that certain key situations must be relived, or re-experinced before they can be resolved. Most commonly the individuation process indicated by the rx planet has not been fully accomplished, and that is why the Soul will set up a life circumsatnce of re-living certain expereinces. Those with Venus rx will attract key people with whom there is "unfinished buinsness" for example untill the person resolves the necessary dynamics reflected by the house and sign of Venus RX. When these issues are resolved then, yes, the Soul can grow by leaps and bounds. The analogy that is used in the Pluto material is peeling away at the layers of an onion to arrive at its core. As such, those that resolve the neccesarry issues related to a planet that is RX will feel a deep sense of being realsed from those issues (coming into alignment with his or her natural individuality/identity in the context of "peeling away at the onion."   
I hope this helps.
Deva
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Rad
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 03, 2009, 11:50 AM »

Hi Jamo,
 I would only add that the retrograde archetype does indeed accelerate a Soul's evolution no matter what evolutionary condition they have evolved too, even in the consensus state, because the archetype of retrograde correlates to 'individuation' as Carl Jung used that word: to individuate from any external conditioning factor that attempts to define for an individual how any given phenomena, as in Deva's example about relationships, is 'meant' to be defined and lived out. The retrograde archetype is meant to induce a natural rebellion from those external conditioning pressures wherever they come from. And the intent of the rebellion is to arrive at a place of individuation. As a result it accelerates the evolutionary pace of the Soul by way of the planets that are retrograde in their birth charts.

Rad
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Rad
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 04, 2009, 10:27 AM »

"In the Pluto material it states that rx symbolizes that the specific areas within consciousness indicated by the house and sign position of the planet that is rx is being relived, or repeated, in order to be fully resolved."

And to clarify - that which is to be resolved for any Rx planet will be in relation to the (moon's) south node dynamics and will ultimately move a person towards gaining the understanding and experience of the north node when resolved? (Unless of course the north node is not applying in the chart.) In other words, for some reason individuation is necessary for evolution to continue.

Jamo

Hi Jamo,
  No, that is not the way to understand it. The entire EA paradigm of natal Pluto, the location of the S.Node of the Moon, the location of it's own planetary ruler by house, sign, and aspects to other planets, Pluto's polarity point, the location of the N.Node of the Moon by it's own house and sign, and the location of it's planetary ruler by it's own house, sign, and  aspects to it correlates the the primary evolutionary / karmic axis, the bottom line, for the Soul's ongoing evolution from life to life for any of us. It's like a foundation upon which a house is built. Relative to that foundation the REST of the entire birth chart, including retrograde planets, is then properly  understood relative to THAT CONTEXT. Everything else is referred to that context, that primary evolutionary/ karmic axis.
  To understand the totality of a retrograde planet, or planets, in terms of not only the individuation process that accelerates the Soul's evolution, but also that which is being relived, r=reliving, for karmic and evolutionary reasons, which are themselves DETERMINED relative to the  underlying primary evolutionary/ karmic axis, one first focuses on the actual nature of the planet(s) that are retrograde, the sign and house location of that natal planet that is retrograde, the location by sign/ house that that planet naturally rules, i.e. Venus naturally rules Libra and Taurus, aspects to that planet that is retrograde because those archetypal dynamics of other planets that are aspecting the retrograde planet all contribute to the total context of that which is being relived and individuated, and, lastly, the location by house and sign of the planetary nodes of the planet(s) that are retrograde.
  Understanding and integrating the totality of this will then lead the EA astrologer to a comprehensive understanding of the retrograde planet(s) for any Soul's individual context that, again, is always established by understanding the main evolutionary/ karmic foundation of each birth chart as symbolized by the EA paradigm of Pluto, it's polarity point, the location of the N. and S.Nodes of the Moon, and the location of their planetary rulers.

Rad
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Steve
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 04, 2009, 03:23 PM »

In other words, for some reason individuation is necessary for evolution to continue.
Jamo

Hi Jamo

I would add that, in ALL Souls, not just those with retrogrades, individuation is necessary for evolution to continue. 

The process of evolution IS the progressive individuation of the Soul, until that Soul finally realizes in full who it truly is, not intellectually but experientially.  Until then the individuation process is the progressive stripping away of all conditioned senses of "Me" that have accumulated over many lifetimes, until finally all that's left is the experience of the true "Me".  That process takes many lives.

The difference in a chart with retrogrades is the individuation process is heightened, emphasized - because there has been resistance to that process in the past.   So the Soul through retrograde has set up conditions that will force it to emphasize its own individuation, as a way of overcoming its own conditioned resistance to that process.  Other symbols emphasizing the individuation process include a lot of 11th house or Aquarius, Uranus aspecting many planets, etc.
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Steve
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 07, 2009, 06:56 PM »

Hi

In response to "I think it's important that we don't conflate the retrograde archetype with the Pluto Archetype", I quote from an old lecture Jeffrey gave on the phenomena of retrograde.  This is from the section on Pluto retrograde

Quote
Dissatisfaction is a Plutonian experience.  Dissatisfaction facilitates evolutionary need.  Retrograde emphasizes the sense of dis¬satisfaction, which then facilitates the evolutionary needs.  When a person says, "There is something else possible".  No matter what evolutionary level is.

This next quote comes from the introduction to the whole lecture, referring to retrograde itself - all planets - the phenomena itself:

Quote
Retrograde function is non-static, never rests, is in a perpetual, cyclical state of growing, is always dissatisfied.

If dissatisfaction is a Plutonian experience, and the retrograde function is always dissatisfied, doesn't that make the retrograde function inherently Plutonian? 

And Pluto does correlates with resistance. The more retrograde planets, the more resistance.  That is why it is generally difficult for a retrograde personality (defined by Jeffrey as someone with 4 or more retrograde planets) to make the necessary changes, while at the same time there is a deep knowing of the NECESSITY of making those changes.  The soul has intentionally painted itself into a corner.

In response to "lack of resources", "early death", etc. why were those experiences necessary in the first place?  They did not come out of the blue.
« Last Edit: Apr 07, 2009, 07:10 PM by Steve » Logged

Steve
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 08, 2009, 02:30 AM »

Quote
I still don't see that repeating circumstances/retrograde arise because of resistance only and not simply because of evolutionary necessity.

Hi

Nowhere in what I wrote did I say that retrograde arises because of resistance only.  Retrograde is a need to review/redo/renew.  Why?  Because things need to change to allow evolution to proceed. 

Getting killed prematurely in a life is not by itself going to be the sole cause of a retrograde.  What is the measuring scale used to determine that a life ending was premature?  We humans decide what is supposedly normal and compare our lifespan against those "normal" standards. But these are human standards - 100 years ago you lived til 40 or 50, that's it, you expected you'd be dead by then - today if someone dies at that age we say they died so young.  These standards have nothing to do with the reality of the Soul.  No Soul can leave its body before its appropriate time, and no Soul can stay in its body longer than its appropriate time.  So how can anyone die prematurely?  They can only die before the time they as person had expected to live until, denied the life experiences they had hoped to have, and so will exhibit RESISTANCE to this idea of their life ending before their human personality was ready for it to end.

Pluto symbolizes our Soul.  Our Soul is the root principle/reason/cause/core of why we are all here in the first place.  Pluto equates with resistance.  This means, at our core every one of us has an inherent resistance.  Anything that is at a core permeates through everything that manifests out of that core.

The whole process is learning to accept that inherent resistance and not be completely limited and defined by it.  None the less it rears its head at every step forward.  We KNOW in our brains there is so much more yet emotionally we still cling to our old limited views of self.  This is built into the human condition.  So I am not clear on how resistance can be separated from Evolutionary Necessity or individuation or retrograde.  Any more than you can separate smoke from fire. It is an inherent part of how we are wired.  Just as we are also wired with the desire to understand who and what we are and where we came from - that is the evolutionary pull forward.

By the way, re: Evolutionary Necessity.  Words mean something.  Among the dictionary definitions of necessity are "pressure of circumstance", "impossibility of a contrary order or condition", "an urgent need or desire", "in such a way that it cannot be otherwise".  I would say in many many cases the emotional response to experiences of that nature would be resistance, at least initially. 
« Last Edit: Apr 08, 2009, 06:11 AM by Steve » Logged

Rad
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 08, 2009, 09:49 AM »

Hi Steve and Jaro,
 Great discussion  you are having. So let's now ask the obvious question: What is the cause of resistance with the Soul ? And resistance to what ? A related question would be: Is it possible for any Soul to evolve beyond the psychology of resistance, and, if so, what the cause of that would be ?

 Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 09, 2009, 03:08 PM »

this so so great!

is it accurate to state that the soul's only function is desire- that the soul is desireous-ness itself?
meaning resistance only happens on the level of identity?
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birdwhistler
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 09, 2009, 03:21 PM »

Hi All,

There is a natural resistance in the Soul to change, change threatens its deepest security patterns defined by the past, that is known, change represents the future, the unknown. The Soul, at some evolutionary point, tires of the same patterns and begins a process of making the necessary choices different from the choices of the past. Everything begins with desire, from there it takes courage and faith to implement change.

Peace, Bird
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ari moshe
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 10, 2009, 02:58 AM »

it's hard for me to understand that philosophically.
does the soul really resist change? is it at all identified with the security of the past?

there's always an element of awareness that is present whenever i do something. who or what is that awareness? is it my soul?

i hope this isn't already too divergent from the initial intent of this thread.

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yarrow8
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 10, 2009, 11:22 AM »

Hi Bird,

I see what you're saying here-it's Newton's First Law...inertia or the natural resistance (gravity) to an object beginning a movement. This would translate on an emotional level to the Soul as fear (inertia or natural resistance) to beginning something new (the new movement). As Newton states, there will always be that level of inertia (resistance) to overcome when an object begins to move after being stationary so that would apply to going beyond a certain limitation and then needing to stabilize. The necessary stabilization would be the natural place of inertia that generates resistance when the Soul attempts to go beyond another limitation. Natural law is a thing of beauty!

Peace,
Yarrow
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Rad
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 10, 2009, 11:27 AM »

it's hard for me to understand that philosophically.
does the soul really resist change? is it at all identified with the security of the past?

there's always an element of awareness that is present whenever i do something. who or what is that awareness? is it my soul?

i hope this isn't already too divergent from the initial intent of this thread.



Hi Ari,
  The Soul is that which is 'aware' in any of us. Without the Soul there can be no ego that reflects the individual Soul in the first place. The ego in each of us is of course aware, but that awareness is, relatively speaking, limited. The limitations themselves are relative to the degree of evolution within the Soul itself.
  The Soul creates egocentric structures in each life that is orientated to phenomenal reality is such a way that reflects the ongoing evolutionary intentions, desires, of the Soul. The resistance to change is rooted in the need for security where security is a function of being self-consistent. Self consistency is a function of the past that defines each present moment. The 'future' is an 'unknown' from the point of view of the past equaling the present 'moment'. As such it is inherently perceived by the Soul as something insecure because it is not a known fact. As a result of this most Souls then 'project' their past into the future in order to feel secure: self-consistent. As a result this is why most Soul's keep repeating their pasts over and over, making only minimal change in each life in order to grow at all: evolve.
  And yet all Souls must evolve. And they evolve as a function of desire for it is the dual desire nature of the Soul, as created by God/ess, that dictates this evolution. As a result we then have a 'future' because of the determinant of evolution: the dual desires inherent to all Souls.
  As Souls naturally evolve they do come to a place in which their sense of personal identification is no longer within the ego's that they create from life to life. Rather the Soul comes to a place where the sense of personal identification is that with which created the Souls in the first place: God/ess. Once this happens the entire sense of what constitutes security utterly changes. And it changes to being in the hands of it's origin: God/ess. Once this happens then the 'resistance' to change, to evolve, simply ends.

 Rad
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Lesley
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 10, 2009, 11:53 AM »

Alas, it is identification with the security of the past that itself necessitates incarnation in the first place, is my own understanding of the concept.
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Stacie
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 10, 2009, 01:46 PM »

The core cause of resistance in the soul is insecurity.  What is being resisted is the loss of established parameters of who the soul has come to know itself to be, and within that self-definition, where it’s power ends and begins.

These known parameters constitute self-consistency.  Self-consistency is a function of the past and is the core basis of security for the soul.  The reason this is equaling core security is because its where the soul has perceived the height of its power, even though the height of that power has only gone only so far.  The problem that occurs as the soul reaches these limitations in how far its own power extends, is that the active evolutionary desires within the soul continue to churn and persist..the desires ‘don’t care’ if the soul has reached the limits of its power--they still demand actualization (or exhaustion)!  This produces a very intense dilemma in the soul of needing to acquire more power in order for those unresolved desires to continue being fulfilled.  Meeting the limits of one’s power produces a view of having no power beyond that point.  From the point of view of the soul, the prospect of proceeding in these new untested directions can seem like a path that is requiring the soul to leave behind all its hard-earned power and embrace a diametrically opposed reality of having no power.  How many of us feel secure committing to a path like that? Of course when the soul willingly chooses to cooperate with such a path, the soul comes to find that it has not left its existing power behind, it has simply needed to discover new ways of applying it.  And the soul eventually comes to discover through a continuous state of becoming, VIA that new uncharted path, that those new ways of applying power have actually allowed the expansion of power that the soul was needing, to occur.  This enables the soul to resume fulfilling on the desires that it was unable to meet within the previous parameters. 

These antithetical orientations (resistance vs. cooperation toward the evolutionary impulse) come down to the dual desires that are responsible for driving the soul’s evolution..separating desire/returning desire..  Resistance to the evolutionary impulse correlates with the desire in the soul to stay separate from the Source which has created it.  Cooperation with the evolutionary impulse correlates with the desire in the soul to return and be reabsorbed back into that original Source.  The factor that determines which desire wins the empowerment of the soul is CHOICE.  The soul constantly has a choice before it about whether to resist or cooperate with the evolutionary impulse.  The condition of insecurity that generates instinctual resistance in the soul is a natural part of the evolutionary process, and thus it’s something to be viewed with an objective compassion.  Insecurity will find progressive resolution as the soul evolves and expands its consciousness to realize its actual divine identity.  If we consider the nature of divine reality in contrast to the nature of reality we find on places like Earth, we rapidly see WHY the evolutionary impulse functions in a way that it does, i.e., by requiring us to step into the unknown and seemingly leave our preexisting definitions and sources of power behind.  God’s reality is timeless and ever shifting form/manifestation..it is also absolutely defined by the principle of giving, sharing, and inclusion because God IS the collective in its ultimate totality..it has identity in every single part of the Creation.  the soul on the other hand, is striving to evolve from an illusive awareness of time/space/‘self’ reality into a conscious awareness of divine reality, and until that evolution ultimately occurs, it’s awareness is naturally oriented in relative degrees to a sense of separateness from everything else within the vastness of the cosmos, an essential aloneness within that sense of separateness, limited power at its disposal, linear structure of time, rigid definitions of structure and form, mortality, etc....which are the perceptions that create the ultimate basis of the soul’s insecurity. 

The soul CAN evolve beyond the condition of compulsive resistance that insecurity induces by consistently making the choices to cooperate with the evolutionary impulse and take the steps that are needed to embrace the unknown/undefined/unmanifested, to therein discover the cyclic expansions of its own power, identity, and awareness.  The more consistently choices are made to cooperate with this evolutionary impulse, the more familiar it becomes..the soul can begin to feel secure in the context of the unknowns and the undefined, because by immersing itself in this experience, the soul progressively strengthens its trust in the higher Source that is guiding it through these ‘unknowns’, and the also strengthens its trust in its own inner resources that the Source continues to bestow/adds upon the soul as it demonstrates sincere effort/self-determination in doing the best that it can.

The retrograde archetype fits into this by symbolizing the ongoing conscious development and realization of the intrinsic individuality that the Source has created in every soul.  In the course of developing functions within the soul’s consciousness, it reaches a point in that development where a natural intensification of gravity occurs, relative to having brought that function to a point of maturity relative to time/space/sociological orientation. After all, we are here on earth..and earth reality is governed by physical and sociological laws which emphasize defined structure, incremental time, collective order (necessitating a prominent percentage of conformity to given status quos in order for the stability of the system to be sustained over time).   The retrograde archetype generates an interior realignment, as Deva explained so well, that creates an awareness in the soul that it is in fact more than the widely accepted prototypes that the soul sees and experiences around it which constitute the norms put forth by society.  This is a uranian process which challenges the soul to retrace its steps back through the past in order to identify and innovate the aspects of itself that are blocking future growth due to a denial or suppression in expressing the soul’s unique individual nature in full and authentic way..beyond the status quos of the world.  This work will produce an inner liberation from the restrictions that these prevailing status quos have been imposing on the soul, and the focus then becomes about reintegrating the soul’s newly innovated individual qualities back into society.  This reintegration can have the effect of proving or demonstrating to society how its own outmoded status quos can be advanced without presenting an outright threat to the system, and how such advancement can support it’s own collective future growth.

I’m sorry this was long, darnit.

Stacie
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