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Linda
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:25 PM »

Good work Ellen!  It doesn't really matter if the posts are out of order.  It looks like you've recaptured most of them.  I'll re-post your chart and my latest post for ease of reference soon.
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Elen
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« Reply #16 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:26 PM »

I think this is Linda with my responses:




Ellen's quotes:

...........The whole process of me choosing and going to college was very much influenced by a friend of mine.  

...........I had NO CLUE and she'd invite me along to the colleges........

...........I would never have thought that.

...........I am beginning to understand this differently now, thanks to yours and others comments.

...........my actions gave me the space I needed to individuate further.

...........I was not CONSCIOUS of that though.  I was just desperate to get out.

...........in hindsight I would put the emphasis on needing to find myself....



Ellen,

Thank you for your great feedback.  

What I see emerging is that this life for you is marked by a progression or process of individuation.....stepping away from the consensus.....moving into academia......rejecting the usual types of work.....and perhaps the sickness of your body forcing you to slow down and make a commitment to spiritual work (for your body's healing, in order to be able to eventually help others).
 
"Yes, I see this also. It also explains the lack of teachers , ie, needing to do individuation work.  What has confused me is the UNCONSCIOUS nature of the whole thing.  I had been thinking that since it WAS so unconscious, that had to be a sure sign pointing to consensus/early individuated.  Also, the anger was confusing for me - another sure sign of individuated I thought.  But, in thinking about Ari's comments, both of these things can be explained in terms of the dynamics in my chart.  The discussion about Ashley also really led me to question where I was at, given that I also have tended towards anger and negativity and had a difficult time holding down jobs at first for somewhat similar reasons, although perhaps tending more towards ideological reasons and "authority" reasons."

Although it seemed that circumstances conspired, or you followed others, or you "had no idea" - in fact, your own soul has taken you through this journey, albeit mainly unconsciously.  
 
"Yes.  Last night I remembered that when I was in high school a friend of mine told me that I just had to go see "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" - that I would just love it.  It wasn't that she was being emphatic about the film.  She was saying that somehow I would relate to it - that it was so ME.  I really didn't get the connection at the time and I think felt a little frightened by it - by being identified as such.  Anyway, I'm not sure I'd get rid of all my possessions and walk naked down the street...Smiley  But seriously, I don't think I'm that far along or that brave.  But apparently there was something there, even then, when I was totally clueless, that others picked up on.
  
As a group, we are able to view your life objectively, and assess your spiritual condition.  Knowing for sure that you are in the 1st stage spiritual will at least slow down the searching and allow you to devote yourself to some spiritual work.
 
"I would agree.  It gives me a different perspective on myself, my focus, my life circumstances and my direction.  I can't thank you all enough."

A soul may start out in a consensus family (eg Catholic) but where that soul ends up usually is a good indication of their evolutionary condition.  
 
"This is one of the things that continues to confuse me re: younger people who have not yet realized who they are, ie, how you make that assessment.  Apparently, there is a quality to each of the stages and it is somehow possible to experience that.  I feel that I keep trying to figure out PERSONALITY. But it has become clear through this discussion and the discussion of Ashley that one has to peer beneath the personality to the SOUL.  (Still not sure how to do that...)  Also, Steve keeps talking about it not being LINEAR.  This I think I am starting to get."
 
You are now expressing the 1st stage spiritual.  Exhausting the desires of the 1st stage spiritual will take some time, but eventually move you forward to the next stage.  Like many of us, learning and practising EA is part of our spiritualizing process.
 
"Yes.  EA has been EXTREMELY important in terms of awakening my desire for spiritual understanding and practice.  I relate to what Stephen has said a couple of times: to study EA is to be a client of EA at the same time."

Do you think you really are 1st stage spiritual?  Any doubts?
 
"Thanks to this process and everyone's feedback and input, I am feeling surprisingly clear about my stage.  The only outstanding doubt for me revolves around the sense of directionlessness with regard to career.  But I suspect that this can be answered along the lines of the other questions I had - that somehow it is a process of unfolding.
 
"Also, I think, feeling more certain about my own EA state will help me in assessing the states of others more clearly, as I will perhaps be less prone to project...
 
Peace for now,
Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #17 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:27 PM »

This is Upasika/my responses:


Hi Ellen,

... I'm starting to wonder what exactly my real gifts are and how I can bring those in a constructive way to the world. 

You may have answered this somewhere else, but I'm just wondering what you would say your real gifts were, and how they are manifesting for you at the moment?

blessings, Upasika

Hi Upasika,

No, I haven't answered this elsewhere.  And it's a challenging question for me at this time; I am only just beginning to think about it and it really goes against my training/conditioning to look at this - to actually recognize my gifts/talents. 
 
I would say that I have potential in the areas of astrology/psychology/counselling.  In terms of manifesting, I am currently studying EA.  I do not envision myself returning to school so I am thinking that psychology/counselling as a profession will not manifest, but I have not completely ruled it out.  I have taken a class in the past and received positive reinforcement.  I also did some volunteer facilitating for a very brief time and received positive reviews.
 
I also have potential in terms of writing, though I wouldn't want this to be my primary activity.  In terms of manifesting, I've explored/pursued poetry and nonfiction writing, but simply don't enjoy the lifestyle and, ultimately, I'd rather expend my energies writing about a subject - ie, using writing more as a teaching tool than a self-expression tool.  So, if it comes into play at all it will be as an extension of something else that I'm doing, rather than as primary.
 
There is my athletic abilitiy.  In this regard, I'm not sure how completely my health will come around.  I coached very briefly in the past and really did not enjoy it and was really not any good at it.  However, it is possible that I was simply not in the right field.  There is also the question here of how much this area is tied into ego expression for me and whether or not it makes sense to pursue it.  Also, it tends not to be a spiritually oriented field and I'm not sure I'd want to be swimming upstream, so to speak.  However, I have played with the idea of being a fitness coach... I am also wondering if this whole area may not morph into an interest in and focus on Yoga.
 
I also suspect I might have a gift with regard to massage, but this is a completely unexplored area.  I am thinking about getting certified in this area.
 
I suspect I have gifts in teaching/speaking but these are areas I have not pursued in any way. I know for certain that I would not enjoy conventional classroom teaching.  And, I think like writing, I don't think I'd want teaching to be primary.  Rather, I see it as being an extension of something else that I'm doing.
 
Well, I'll leave it at that.  I hope this helps your understanding.
 
Peace,
Ellen
 
 
 
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Elen
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« Reply #18 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:28 PM »

Linda/Ellen:

{Ellen's quotes are in purple.}

Ellen said:  "By high school I desperately wanted to get out."  I interpret this as:  you were not happy to tolerate the consensus any longer.
 
Hi Linda,  Yes, this is probably a correct interpretation.  I was not CONSCIOUS of that though.  I was just desperate to get out.  I couldn't have really articulated why.  And in hindsight I would put the emphasis on needing to find myself rather than needing to get away from the consensus.


"I ended up at a very liberal liberal arts college far from home where my eyes opened to a much larger world and an entirely different set of values."  Arts is associated with the individuated stage...and indicates a desire in that direction... In your case Ellen, I would say you've been in this stage in the past, and were becoming reacquainted with it. You were quite clear of the direction to take and made no hesitation in returning to the individuated area which indicates an ease from the past.
 
There may be a language barrier or cultural difference here...?  Liberal arts in the U.S. doesn't refer specifically to the arts.  It refers to an immersion in a diverse coursework of studies spanning the humanities and sciences.  I did not study "arts" in college.  But I was very keen on learning about things that I really couldn't question or study before.  Also, I'm not sure I understood how liberal the school that I attended was.  The whole process of me choosing and going to college was very much influenced by a friend of mine.  I had NO CLUE and she'd invite me along to the colleges she was visiting and having interviews at.  In hindsight, I see that she saw my family wasn't encouraging me, so she took it upon herself to expose me to other possibilities.  Eventually, she settled on one, so I did too.  Then I couldn't return to that school (money).  Desperate, I applied to another school she highly regarded (it gave out more financial aid), and went there and was glad that it happened to be far away from home.  I think my whole motivation for seeking out a small private school was one of pride.  All of my friends were going to these schools, and my pride demanded that I do too.  I do think, however, that on a level a little beneath the radar, I knew I wouldn't be able to learn what I needed to learn (and I don't really mean subject matter, but more, just the basics in terms of how to think - how to use my mind..)at the state schools with the class sizes as large as they were.
 
"I went through a period of tremendous loneliness and isolation, feeling totally abandoned by God."   Could this be the man-made god from catholic school?  If so, another indication of moving away from the consensus.
 
Yes.  Absolutely.  (though I didn't go to Catholic school.  I went to public schools.)

"Eventually I realized I was gay.  Throughout childhood I kept this hidden from myself.  I lived my early life in great fear, though, terrified of being found out (even though I didn't really know what that was).  I never dated boys/men and felt in a state of constant terror about this expectation and pressure."  Obviously there is "fear" around upsetting your consensus parents, which is normal.
 
Also fear about safety/security.  I think that is more the core of the fear.  I really felt fear for my life at a very deep level.  I am not saying that I feared my parents or family would kill me.  I didn't think that.  But somehow my being gay and this deep fear for my life were intertwined, and to some degree, continue to be now. 

"After I came out (I realized I was gay in my junior year of college), I pretty much raged through life, recognizing that all the people I thought loved me would have rejected me had they known I was gay. I became largely estranged from my family and hung out strictly with lesbians. " Perhaps this was an unconscious way to separate yourself from your loved ones...so that you could individuate further...or to make you conscious of who you really are.
 
I definitely think that my being gay has forced me to question and confront things that I otherwise would never have done.  I think there is for me, in this life, a strong need to really discover who I am (consciously speaking) as separate from the crowd and to sort of learn to stand up for myself - to learn courage, maybe.  So, yes, I think you are right - my actions gave me the space I needed to individuate further.  I would also say that my actions really upended my life, and they have forced me to take account of things in a way that I otherwise would not have.  I definitely would not have learned this lesson I'm learning now about understanding that everyone truly loved me as deeply as was/is possible for them had I not taken the path that I took.  But it is not a path I would ever willingly take again.  I am reminded of the story of the prince who jailed his father.  After his father died, he had his own child.  When he became aware of how deep his own love was for his child, he was overcome with remorse.  The Buddha commented to his followers that he would not be able to reach enlightenment due to the mental distress of his actions towards his father.

"It never occurred to me to think about a career."
 To me, this indicates the desire for the 'spiritual,' rather than the material consensus world. 

"Recently, I left my job, primarily because it was no longer possible to do the kind of work that mattered to me due to the change in  health care models that has been affecting the business for years now.  Also, I have been sick for the past decade or so and the stress of the job was impeding my healing process."  Leaving this job indicates the desire to move forward.  I'm wondering whether becoming sick was a ploy to avoid the material world, and to give you more time in the spiritual.
 
Yes.  The way I understand it, ie, how it feels to me, is that my life had gone as far as it could on the track that it was on and could go no further.  Illness was the only way out.  I was never going to make the changes that needed to be made thus,  illness.
 
"I continued to go back and forth about astrology in general.  But now, having gone through what I think is my last crisis about it, feel quite committed to it." You've probably been into astrology in the past, and you are learning how to incorporate the 'individuation' that astrology represents, into the spiritual (JWG).
 
Yes, that's exactly how it feels - what it feels like the challenge is at this time.
 
"Also during this time I went back to my Catholic roots, feeling that there was something there I had to face and reconcile.  Mostly, what I discovered is that I needed to learn that not all Catholics were narrow.  Once I saw that, I seemed able to release it, though I can still be driven to rage thinking about the hubris of the Catholic hierarchy."  This describes the maturity of the spiritual state.
This is something that others have alluded to and that has opened my eyes some.  I assumed that the anger/rage was a sure sign of spiritual immaturity.  I am beginning to understand this differently now, thanks to yours and others comments.

"Hearing JWG talk about Yogananda a few months back, I reread his autobiography and fell in love.  I feel now that I have made a genuine commitment to spiritual learning and practice."  This definitely describes the spiritual condition.

"However, I continue to feel unclear about my life path and am uncertain that I will have the inner strength to resist the pressures to conform to expectations once I return to my home state and family."  Obviously there are issues with the family, or one parent in particular, brought over from the past.

"Currently, I am experiencing episodes of huge fear that seem to be about "claiming my power" in the face of conditioning that demands that I cede my power to whatever human authority wants to keep me under wraps.  However, I seem to be aware of this in a way I have never been (I've lived my life in fear) and so feel that I am working with it more constructively." You are coming out of centuries of conditioning, quite rapidly, and your awareness of what is going on indicates the spiritual state.
 
Another eye opening statement that others have alluded to but that I seem to be starting to get.

"I would also say that, until recently, I have lived my life in complete ignorance of the reality of the need to take care of myself and indeed resentful of this need.  Outwardly, I did what I had to, but inwardly, the understanding really wasn't there."    This describes the Virgo energy playing out in the 1st stage spiritual.
 
I would never have thought that.  But it makes sense.

Ellen, My preliminary assessment of your evolutionary condition is early 1st s
 
Linda, Thanks for your assessment.  I have learned a lot.
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Elen
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« Reply #19 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:29 PM »

I think this is bluesky/me:

2. are you alienated from society to the point where you live an isolated life (group of one) or associate mainly with those of like-mind, and erect barriers between yourself and society so that you won't be sucked into having to live a life you don't resonate with? are you struggling to discover who you are as a person?
 
For the past decade or so, I've been too sick to even think about groups/socializing.  Prior to that I always had a crowd.  My tendency until recently has been to attract through negativity people who were critical of society in the ways that I have been.  However, throughout my healing process, I became less and less happy about my negativity, and less and less desirous of connecting up with others in this way and tremendously frustrated when my friendships inevitably revolved around negativity.  At the same time, I haven't wanted to pretend everything is ok when it's not.  This is really the crux of my challenge right now.  Where do I fit in in a constructive way?  How can I engage in whatever work I am meant to do in a way that is both fulfilling to me and, without being destructive in a negative, harmful way (and attracting people oriented to negative/destructive ways), helps to transform society in the necessary ways it is needing to be transformed at this time.  (And I would want to do this with others, not just by myself.)  I feel that I don't want to turn my back on the world.  Yet at the same time, I don't want to just go along with it.  What is beginning to open up in my awareness is the understanding that it is not me who is doing the doing, but God/Source.  So, I have been, on the one hand, allowing myself to recognize whatever gifts and interests I have, and on the other hand, asking God for direction.  Learning to see my gifts, and even more than that, see that I have some, is really a big step for me; my self-denial (even hatred) has been quite profound.
 
I would also say that I did have a need to isolate myself from certain influences throughout much of my adulthood.  And anger is what allowed me to do that.  However, thanks to EA and the discussions on this MB, I am now beginning to understand my circumstances and the other people in my life differently.  I see that they have loved and cared about me to the extent that they were able.  My anger can still rear its head - its still my first reaction in many cases - but I recognize it for what it is and can work with it.  I also recognize now that if I am to continue my healing process and continue further on the spiritual path, I need to recognize the possibilities and abilities of the people in my life and seek out those who are truly committed to the spiritual path.
 
3. do you feel deep within yourself that you can change the world/society for the better, in a way that is large or small, and have the confidence to do so and live your life accordingly? do you know who you are as a person?
 
I feel that at this time, I am learning to anchor my life in the spiritual and self-awareness practices, and align myself with the teachers and spiritual paths, that will allow me to confidently move through the world.

4. does your consciousness revolve around seeking the truth and living your life according to that truth on a consistent and daily basis? are you seeking spiritual guidance and advice according to which you can lead such a life?
 
Yes, I would say I have always, in whatever ways I was able, sought the truth and that much of my anger has been about seeing untruth all around me.  I couldn't have said, exactly, why I was angry or named the truths/untruths, but I think I always had some sort of sense that things were screwed up.  Much of my adult life, especially since my Saturn Return,  has been spent trying to understand my own emotional dynamics and the ways I have been causing harm to myself through my self-ignorance.  I have begun, tentatively, seeking spiritual guidance.  I feel, through Yogananda, I have finally found a tradition that makes sense to me and that works for me.
Thanks for your questions.  I hope my answers help.
 
Peace,
Ellen


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Elen
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« Reply #20 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:31 PM »

Well that's what I have saved.  Hope it is helpful.

Peace,
Ellen



Hi Linda,

I'll respond to your post as soon as I'm able.  Hopefully tomorrow.

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Linda
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« Reply #21 on: Jul 27, 2010, 09:57 PM »

COPY OF LAST PAGE OF ELLEN'S THREAD


Ellen

Hi Linda and All,

My day was busier than expected and tomorrow also looks busy.  So sorry for the delay in response.  I will respond as soon as I'm able.

Ellen



Linda

That's fine Ellen.
I'm still trying to work out why I asked you that question,
and why I came to that conclusion.  



Ellen

Quote from: Linda on Jun 25, 2010, 07:34 PM
Quote
Ellen,

I'm glad to hear that your feeling is that we haven't settled on anything yet.

I like to bounce off the latest advice and findings of others in this thread ... and at the moment I am preparing more questions for you geared to end of 3rd Individuated moving into 1st Spiritual.  

Perhaps I can start by asking:  

1.  What actions or steps, no matter how small or large, have you consistently taken in your desire to serve the Great Everything?  

Mostly, I would say that the actions I have taken have been actions of "stopping", ie, stopping past patterns of behavior that were self-destructive and out of alignment with God.  Also, the whole point of the illness I have struggled with, as I have come to understand it, has been to force me to question all of beliefs/assumptions/behaviors/direction in life/etc - to see how small ego was the driver and how that really wasn't satisfying ultimately.  More recently, I have begun to meditate and to study Yogananda's teachings through SRF.

2.  Is this desire completely new, or have you experienced it earlier in your life?
It is not completely new  I have always had a desire to know God, but I have always been put off by religion and felt stumped as to how to proceed.  I also think I had some conditioning patterns to work through, thus I was not receptive to "spiritual/non-religious systems due to these patterns.

3.  Has this service manifested, or is it still in the realm of indecision or desire?
It is in the realm of desire.  The question is (given that I have to make a living, financially-speaking), what can I actually do?

You may have answered some of these earlier (please refresh our memories a little) yet these questions are now geared to another state of evolution.

Thanks!

I hope these answers help.  Let me know if you want me to explain further.  If I able, I will be happy to do so.

Peace,
Ellen
   


Upasika

Hi Ellen (and everyone),

Just checking in ... I'm still tied up with relocating, and also have a backlog of other things building up to be dealt with so can't contribute much for a while. But I don't feel we have conclusively determined your stage yet Ellen, just narrowed it down to cusp Indiv 2nd/3rd to Indiv 3rd to cusp Indiv 3rd/Spiritual 1st (I think that's the collective feeling?). And it would be good to not leave this incomplete (but I can only wish for that, as I can't personally help much to make that happen for a little while)

However for now, I feel it's important to delve more into what your skipped step(s) are Ellen, and how they would manifest differently for each of the possible substages you might be in. As Rad pointed out, skipped steps can cause a person to manifest life events and behavior that are of a substage earlier than the person's actual ea stage. Until we can see more clearly the effect your skipped steps have had on you this lifetime, it's a source of potential confusion regarding your stage.

This is my feeling about where we're at with your stage Ellen so far, but I can't offer any more at this point, just too tied up.

blessings Upasika



Linda

Hi Ellen,

I've been away. Thanks for answering my questions in your Reply #137 the result of which I feel your spirituality cannot be overlooked as you have a real desire in that area.  Perhaps you are just beginning to move into the early 1st stage spiritual.  

I see misapplications of trust in many areas of the chart, which amplify the skipped steps in honesty/intuition/trust/faith (Jupiter Aries 7th) within relationships and friendships.  The way I see the resolution to your skipped steps is through the South Node Capricorn 4th, ruler Saturn Aquarius 5th, to redefine your self-image, to become emotionally self-secure and to create a special purpose with others of like-mind where you are allowed to search and express truth and knowledge (Jupiter 7th) in an equal way among others, or to find that self-authority that will enable you to play a teaching/facilitation role in a group environment. Uranus is completing a cycle relative to natal Pluto 12th, this aspect giving a clue to making that final adjustment requiring you to revolutionize or transform your spiritual intentions.  

Rad pointed out that skipped steps can cause a person to manifest life events and behavior that are of a sub-stage earlier than the person's actual EA stage.  There may have been a requirement to go back to understand and fulfill the skipped steps in what could have appeared to be the individuated state since much of your bio presents that way, but regardless of that, I'm beginning to feel that you are in fact in the early 1st stage spiritual (which was my intuitive feeling from the start).

There's a beautiful kite pattern incorporating 6 planets, with Neptune Scorpio 2nd as the outlet for the energies. There is hesitation and less confidence with Neptune, which could cloud your Moon Taurus 8th, causing you to feel unsure about your self-image especially, or the sources of power that you merge with, with a requirement to identify your values and resources, and develop self-reliance, but because the energies would be shored up via the grand trines in water houses (!), you could succeed quite well.

It seems there has been a new development since you posted a thread entitled "question for admin" telling us that you desire to run an EA study group.  Could this be the resolution to your skipped steps!?  

Gosh, it took me ages to work this out.  We're getting closer I'm sure to your evolutionary state!  Our quest is ongoing, so I'll wait to hear from the others before posting a final conclusion.



Ellen

Hi Upasika,

Nice to hear from you.  I hope the relocation is going well.  I think your thinking re: what to cover next is right on.  I think that will help to really understand what's going on.  I see that Linda has started that process in her next post.  It'll be interesting to see how this develops.

Peace to you,
Ellen



Ellen

Hi Linda,

Thanks so much for your post and for all the continued thinking you have been putting into this.  I would like to take some time to think about what  you've written before I reply in any detail.  I've been running here and there exploring career paths, so I've not had a lot of quality time to really digest information.  I'm looking forward to reading through what you've written with more thought.  Based on my first read through, I thought you hit some important points.

Peace,
Ellen



adina

Hi Ellen,

I'd like to make a suggestion at this point of the discussion, based on the following: You have bravely and graciously shared your life story with us - your hopes and dreams, your foibles and follies, etc. In addition many people here have asked more questions and have offered well thought out analyses of what your evolutionary stage might be.

Then, too, we've somewhat covered the issue of the skipped steps, which Wolf taught long ago could make the person APPEAR to be in an earlier stage of development. Part of that CAN come from a repeat OF different stages of evolution - or specific ISSUES that got "skipped" in a prior evolutionary stage and so need to be recovered there. I've known more than one person (including myself) who was at first confused about what stage they were in because early parts of their life on the OUTside reflected a different stage. But underneath that confusion, too, most of us had an intuitive idea about where we were, because underneath it all there was single underlying essence that held everything else together, so that more often than not, the stage we thought first at a gut/intuitive level was, indeed, the stage we were in.

The only caveat to that is that the person needs to be able to look at him or herself clearly and honestly. (Sometimes we CAN think we're a little more evolved than we are.    ). But from what I've read from you here, I don't think you run that risk. It seems you are pretty clear and honest with yourself, and by extension, with us here on the forum.

So, with all that information, both from within, and from others, I'd like to suggest that you, too, more than likely have already intuited what your evolutionary stage is. And we can actually sidetrack you away from your intuition by what we used to call "Virgoizing" an issue. LOL  That is, we can make it much more difficult than it needs to be, and pull in too many details. Wolf said SO, SO often, "The truth is ALways simple."  (With a s node in the 6th house, this has been a lesson for me as well.    ).  So, knowing what you know now about skipped steps and how one can appear to be in an earlier stage, I believe if you think of what you shared here and plugged it in to how some of your thoughts and actions fit certain earlier stages - BUT NO LONGER DO - you will "see" for yourself - thru your intuition, your original gut reaction - your strongest underlying essence that indicates where you actually are. I say all this because I really feel you know more than you're giving yourself credit for,  and I want to encourage you to tap into your inner knowledge and guidance.  

This is just my own suggestion; you and others may feel very differently.

God Bless,
Adina

http://bluelotusletters.com/site/



Ellen

Quote from: Linda on Jun 30, 2010, 10:08 PM

Quote
Hi Ellen,

I've been away. Thanks for answering my questions in your Reply #137 the result of which I feel your spirituality cannot be overlooked as you have a real desire in that area.  Perhaps you are just beginning to move into the early 1st stage spiritual.  

I see misapplications of trust in many areas of the chart, which amplify the skipped steps in honesty/intuition/trust/faith (Jupiter Aries 7th) within relationships and friendships.  The way I see the resolution to your skipped steps is through the South Node Capricorn 4th, ruler Saturn Aquarius 5th, to redefine your self-image, to become emotionally self-secure
This (in bold) I think is absolutely dead on.

and to create a special purpose with others of like-mind where you are allowed to search and express truth and knowledge (Jupiter 7th) in an equal way among others,
Yes, also true.  The surprising thing for me is that this has been needing to start with my family (4th house) and indeed now is.
 
or to find that self-authority that will enable you to play a teaching/facilitation role in a group environment.
This also I think is true.  What is surprising to me is that where I am going with this right now, in terms of career, is back to my athletic roots.  Astrology and spiritual practice both seem to be shaping up at this time as avocations, but not careers; the things that stabilize my life, help me to grow and deepen, but hobbies, not income-producing paths.  Hopefully, they will both end up being ways that I connect up with others "off-duty", as is the case with this mb, for example.

Uranus is completing a cycle relative to natal Pluto 12th, this aspect giving a clue to making that final adjustment requiring you to revolutionize or transform your spiritual intentions.  
Yes, and in the 12th - it seems that taking that leap into the abyss, Uranian style, is in order.

Rad pointed out that skipped steps can cause a person to manifest life events and behavior that are of a sub-stage earlier than the person's actual EA stage.  There may have been a requirement to go back to understand and fulfill the skipped steps in what could have appeared to be the individuated state since much of your bio presents that way
Yes, my own feeling about this is that the individuated expression of my life has been a kind of burning away of dross, to once and for all work through and anchor individuated wisdom/knowing.

but regardless of that, I'm beginning to feel that you are in fact in the early 1st stage spiritual (which was my intuitive feeling from the start).
I am also thinking this - a toe in.

There's a beautiful kite pattern incorporating 6 planets, with Neptune Scorpio 2nd as the outlet for the energies. There is hesitation and less confidence with Neptune, which could cloud your Moon Taurus 8th, causing you to feel unsure about your self-image especially, or the sources of power that you merge with, with a requirement to identify your values and resources, and develop self-reliance,
Yes.  My own feeling about this, as I watch my life unfold, is that the sources of power I have to learn to merge with are spiritual sources, ie, Source - and that self-reliance builds from there.

but because the energies would be shored up via the grand trines in water houses (!), you could succeed quite well.
I think letting my emotions guide me - using this as my strength, yes?

It seems there has been a new development since you posted a thread entitled "question for admin" telling us that you desire to run an EA study group.  Could this be the resolution to your skipped steps!?  
I am not sure.  I hadn't thought about it as running a study group.  I'd been thinking about it more as gathering people together who might be interested in astrology and in this particular way of seeing the world and building community and bolstering my own studying through these gatherings.

Gosh, it took me ages to work this out.  We're getting closer I'm sure to your evolutionary state!  Our quest is ongoing, so I'll wait to hear from the others before posting a final conclusion.
Thank you so much for all of the effort you have put into this!  I knew that figuring out my stage would be tricky, which was a big reason why I wanted to share my bio (in addition to just wanting to feel sure within myself of what my stage actually is), but I'm not sure I thought it would be quite as tricky as it has been!  Nevertheless, I do feel that all the sweat and tears with mine and Ashley's charts has helped me to start to appreciate the subtleties of these things.

Peace,
Ellen
   


Ellen

Hi Adina,

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.  Indeed, I am starting to get a sense of things.  I am starting to feel that I have a toe in 1st Spiritual, yet at the same time, I am still needing to finish up the skipped steps of, as Linda pointed out, self-reliance and emotional security/self-authority, and also just the crux of individuated itself - a true sense of and appreciation of what is unique about me - what is my particular way in the world - and valuing that (after all, it is God desiring to express in the world, not "me".)  The trick has been to understand (now that I seem to be truly through all the rage and anger), on the one hand, my desire to do what God desires me to do, ie, to be of service, yet at the same time continuing to be pointed towards individuated type steps, and being confused by that.  I am, for example, pursuing a path in personal training as opposed to, say, yoga.  To me it simply feels that that is where I'm being guided - a kind of going back to the past to learn, after years of feeling spiritually and intellectually inferior - that it is simply ok to love fitness/being active (as opposed to scholarship or explicitly spiritual living - you know, like being a hermit in the Himalayas) and to have that (fitness) be central (and possibly/probably the foundation from which evolution can take place, ie, perhaps yoga will manifest down the road as I start to truly understand the limitations of "fitness" and thus desire to move beyond it, from a foundation of my own understanding and sense of self-worth rather than self-denigration).  Phew! - hope all that makes sense!

Anyway, I'd be curious as to what others are thinking, though I am feeling a sense of confidence in what I have just articulated.

Peace and goodwill,
Ellen



bluesky

Ellen, are we done with your chart?

Because I was wondering if anyone wanted to post thoughts about how your natal pluto and nodal axis could be interpreted, individuated versus spiritual...

would anyone like to comment on this?



Linda

Thanks Bluesky. Here's Ellen's chart again for those who wish to examine her Pluto dynamic in both the individuated and spiritual stages.
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Linda
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« Reply #22 on: Jul 27, 2010, 10:01 PM »

Hi Ellen,

From an early Spiritual Stage perspective, with the skipped steps appearing to take you back to the Individuated Stage:

A few thoughts on your chart.  Mars/Cap/4th gives you that competitive spirit/love of sports, and it conjuncts the South Node which is a re-live of your past-life Mars issues. The whole chart shows misapplication of trust, and a search for a strong partner (Jupiter/Aries/7th).

Pluto Virgo 12th Rx describes the prior evolutionary desire to experience your own individuality as an extension of the Source, thereby spiritualizing all aspects of your life.  This area continues to evolve.  

The present soul intention is described by the Pluto polarity point, Pisces 6th, to develop specific and practical mental methods of self-analysis, to see the connections, to harness specific meditation techniques, thereby bringing about self-purification in your connection to the Source.

Pluto is supported by SN/Cap/4th:  did you have a tendency to seek security from the men in your life (Sun, Mars), and facilitated by Saturn/Aquarius/5th, in particular your father?  There is a requirement to develop the NN/10th, your self-authority, social role, facilitated by the Moon/Taurus/8th by merging with symbols of power and transformation, eg self-reliant women.

The resolution to your skipped steps lies in the SN/Cap (with Mars conjunct) having to develop a secure self-image/emotional self-reliance/self-authority all based on honesty to partners (Jupiter/7th).

There was a ‘moral decision’ or the requirement to be honest (Jupiter/Aries/7th) about your sexuality, and disclosure to partners.  You were flip-flopping back and forth from the SN/4th to the NN/10th (gender switch), which resulted in strong feelings of alienation from partners/friends/society/family (Jupiter/Aries/7th).  

This past-life issue gives the strong appearance of “Individuated” due to that Mars/Jupiter square where you are wondering, "What do I do now?" or your inner self as it relates to others.  Perhaps the skipped steps described the requirement for honesty (Jupiter) in communicating (Mercury conj SN/Mars, Mercury rules the chart, Mercury rules Pluto) your gayness:  and this you have done.

I'm wondering, did you have a re-live relationship with a man as symbolized by Mars conjunct your SN, ruled by Saturn/Aquarius/5th?  The SN conj Mars could just be your own image of your inner self:  athletic, unique, different, restricted (Saturn/Aquarius/5th).  Perhaps the problem was actually trying to break the news to your parents?  If so, this could have been where the skipped steps were worked on.

We see that Neptune rules your 7th house and is found in Scorpio/2nd, so perhaps, together with the skipped steps, there is a need to strip away any delusions, to find that strong sense of self-reliance, and to see yourself as your own self-transformative symbol (Neptune/Scorpio/2nd) as you align and merge with spiritual power source, and work/share together with friends of a spiritual orientation.

It’s interesting also that Uranus is just about completing its cycle relative to Pluto 12th and this, to me, is a symbol of your present issues, hanging on to that “individuality” or “retreating to the past” whereas there is a need to look forward to the new cycle where you can begin to express your hard-won individuality within the Spiritual State.

Thanks Ellen, please let me know if any of this makes sense.  Hope others will join in too.


* Ellen Chart.gif (99.04 KB, 454x680 - viewed 131 times.)
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2010, 10:03 PM by Linda » Logged
bluesky
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« Reply #23 on: Jul 28, 2010, 12:38 AM »

isn't 12th house pluto about desiring to merge with the source (jumping into the abyss, as I remember it from the 1st pluto book) but holding back?

maybe the cause (south node cap, saturn in aquarius) was rebellion against the system, causing trauma, now resulting in the inability to submit to a "higher authority" - which I understand is a necessary part of the spiritual process.

so the 12th house pluto could indicate attempts at 1st steps in the spiritual stage, with the remnants of individuation - rebelling against society, establishing your own voice in society with respect to that process - getting in the way of the spiritualization process. After all, that could have been a long, difficult fight.  I realize that the individuation process could involve "rebellion" for anyone who goes through it, but in your case that would especially be so.

I don't think I've expressed myself very well - so if anyone wants to finesse my comments, go ahead Cheesy
« Last Edit: Jul 28, 2010, 01:12 AM by bluesky » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 28, 2010, 02:42 PM »

Hi Linda,

Thanks so much for your analysis.  What you wrote definitely makes sense, though I would say definitely from a very very early stage of 1st spiritual, ie, still have some big humps to get over. 
My answers are in quotes.

Ellen

Hi Ellen,

From an early Spiritual Stage perspective, with the skipped steps appearing to take you back to the Individuated Stage:

A few thoughts on your chart.  Mars/Cap/4th gives you that competitive spirit/love of sports, and it conjuncts the South Node which is a re-live of your past-life Mars issues. The whole chart shows misapplication of trust, and a search for a strong partner (Jupiter/Aries/7th).

"To me, this is true."

Pluto Virgo 12th Rx describes the prior evolutionary desire to experience your own individuality as an extension of the Source, thereby spiritualizing all aspects of your life.  This area continues to evolve. 

"Yes, also true.  But I would say with a lot of resistance and also confusion - Pluto in 12th endlessly spinning out false visions/goals/directions/etc."

The present soul intention is described by the Pluto polarity point, Pisces 6th, to develop specific and practical mental methods of self-analysis, to see the connections, to harness specific meditation techniques, thereby bringing about self-purification in your connection to the Source.

"Again, completely true, though it is definitely a slow process and I find it difficult to commit to a spiritual community.  Someone also mentioned to me that it is about learning to be of service to the Divine.  To me, this is also true.  And for me the difficulty is understanding how I can bring who I am into this service; in other words, what I'm figuring out is that it's not about leaving me behind, but about bringing me into the picture."


Pluto is supported by SN/Cap/4th:  did you have a tendency to seek security from the men in your life (Sun, Mars), and facilitated by Saturn/Aquarius/5th, in particular your father? 

"I would not say that I CONSCIOUSLY sought it.  But my Soul did choose an authoritarian type family structure where the security came from following the rules, and it was definitely my father's house and his rules."

There is a requirement to develop the NN/10th, your self-authority, social role, facilitated by the Moon/Taurus/8th by merging with symbols of power and transformation, eg self-reliant women.

"This is an interesting comment re: self-reliant women.  Ultimately, I think I am meant to BE that self-reliant woman, which is what I think you are saying.  I find this whole piece of the puzzle extremely difficult."

The resolution to your skipped steps lies in the SN/Cap (with Mars conjunct) having to develop a secure self-image/emotional self-reliance/self-authority all based on honesty to partners (Jupiter/7th).

"Hmmm... I would look at it this way: that by developing a secure self-image/emotional self-reliance/self-authority, honesty with partners will be possible.  However, I would also say that these qualities, once it is recognized that they are what are needing to be developed, may perhaps be best developed within the context of trusting partnerships.  To me it is a tricky line: I have to get far enough along in my own development (which I think I'm finally getting to - close to anyway) before I can do the real work of partnership.  I know that this is true for anyone, but it is, I think, especially true for me."

There was a ‘moral decision’ or the requirement to be honest (Jupiter/Aries/7th) about your sexuality, and disclosure to partners.  You were flip-flopping back and forth from the SN/4th to the NN/10th (gender switch), which resulted in strong feelings of alienation from partners/friends/society/family (Jupiter/Aries/7th). 

"Yes, definitely strong feelings of alienation from all of the above.  And yes, in this lifetime, a strong need to be clear about who I am, within myself, and then to not try to hide it from others.  Big task in this life, I'd say."

This past-life issue gives the strong appearance of “Individuated” due to that Mars/Jupiter square where you are wondering, "What do I do now?" or your inner self as it relates to others.  Perhaps the skipped steps described the requirement for honesty (Jupiter) in communicating (Mercury conj SN/Mars, Mercury rules the chart, Mercury rules Pluto) your gayness:  and this you have done.

"Yes, "what do I do now" is a very big question.  Ok, I've figured out me - who I am in this regard (gay).  Now what?  How do I participate/contribute/etc...  (note that Sun/Moon are in a gibbous phase, Saturn is in Aq in 5th and sq Moon).  I definitely think the honesty in communicating my gayness in the face of rejection is definitely a part of the skipped steps in the sense of me having to learn to be who I am regardless (my being gay simply forced the issue, ie, no way I could avoid it within me)."

I'm wondering, did you have a re-live relationship with a man as symbolized by Mars conjunct your SN, ruled by Saturn/Aquarius/5th? 

"As far as I know, the answer to that is No,  unless perhaps one considers my relationship with my father."

The SN conj Mars could just be your own image of your inner self:  athletic, unique, different, restricted (Saturn/Aquarius/5th).  Perhaps the problem was actually trying to break the news to your parents?  If so, this could have been where the skipped steps were worked on.

"This seems more true to my experience.  It was definitely a big deal for me when I realized I had to tell my parents."

We see that Neptune rules your 7th house and is found in Scorpio/2nd, so perhaps, together with the skipped steps, there is a need to strip away any delusions, to find that strong sense of self-reliance, and to see yourself as your own self-transformative symbol (Neptune/Scorpio/2nd) as you align and merge with spiritual power source, and work/share together with friends of a spiritual orientation.

"Definitely a need to strip away delusions and this as a result of relationship failures.  I think the last part is also true, but I feel that I haven't quite reached that plateau in terms of that really coming into being in my daily life.  But I definitely feel a desire for it and it is definitely what attracts me to this EA community."

It’s interesting also that Uranus is just about completing its cycle relative to Pluto 12th and this, to me, is a symbol of your present issues, hanging on to that “individuality” or “retreating to the past”

"Yes. Bingo."

whereas there is a need to look forward to the new cycle where you can begin to express your hard-won individuality within the Spiritual State.

"Again, bingo.  I feel that this is exactly the challenge facing me at this time.  And it is unclear how far I will progress.  I do feel that just making it to the point of understanding that this is what the challenge is and the requirement is, is a success of some sorts.  However, I hope I can figure out how to actually manifest some of this in this particular lifetime."

Thanks Ellen, please let me know if any of this makes sense.  Hope others will join in.
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 28, 2010, 02:54 PM »

isn't 12th house pluto about desiring to merge with the source (jumping into the abyss, as I remember it from the 1st pluto book) but holding back?

Yes.  And my understanding of one way that you can  hold back is that you become hyper-focused on some aspect of yourself or area of interest and convince yourself that that's totally what it's about, but inside you feel hollow and know that you're just fooling yourself.  I feel that in this lifetime, particularly at this particular time in my life, that it is this dynamic that I have been caught up in and trying to figure out how to just let go and trust.  In a certain sense I HAVE always trusted, yet here I am in a major life jam at this time in my life.  So I'm feeling a little desperate, trying to figure out what I can do that will both be in service to the Divine and at the same time be something that I enjoy.  In reality of course, there should be no dichotomy here.  The way it seems to me is that, just by the very fact that there IS such a dichotomy here for me is an indicator of resistance, and I FEEL that dynamic of trying to make something be real - trying to latch onto some aspect of myself and make that into something.  And this because of fear based on the need to provide a source of income for myself.......  STRUGGLE   Undecided


maybe the cause (south node cap, saturn in aquarius) was rebellion against the system, causing trauma, now resulting in the inability to submit to a "higher authority" - which I understand is a necessary part of the spiritual process.

I think this is exactly right.  The habit-pattern of rebellion has been VERY strong in this life, even if it was kept under wraps in my childhood.  And this is definitely a significant factor in my efforts to cultivate a spiritual practice and in my efforts to find a spiritual community.



so the 12th house pluto could indicate attempts at 1st steps in the spiritual stage, with the remnants of individuation - rebelling against society, establishing your own voice in society with respect to that process - getting in the way of the spiritualization process. After all, that could have been a long, difficult fight.  I realize that the individuation process could involve "rebellion" for anyone who goes through it, but in your case that would especially be so.

I don't think I've expressed myself very well - so if anyone wants to finesse my comments, go ahead Cheesy

I think you've hit it right on.
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« Reply #26 on: Jul 28, 2010, 07:59 PM »

Hi Ellen,

Linda said:  There is a requirement to develop the NN/10th, your self-authority, social role, facilitated by the Moon/Taurus/8th by merging with symbols of power and transformation, eg self-reliant women.

Ellen said:  "This is an interesting comment re: self-reliant women.  Ultimately, I think I am meant to BE that self-reliant woman, which is what I think you are saying.  I find this whole piece of the puzzle extremely difficult."

Yes, you are meant to be that self-reliant woman, but are you?  The 8th house can represent where you feel your limitations or your "powerlessness."  I used the example of forming relationships with symbols of power such as "strong self-reliant women" because they may symbolize something that you need due to a perceived lack.

I intuited this lack due to overall "emotional" problems in the chart:  SN dynamics in the 4th, the resolution to the skipped steps being in the 4th, and also because Neptune opposes your Moon bringing some confusion. The Moon is very important because it is the facilitator of your NN social role and purpose.

The fixed t-square could explain "feeling hollow" and "at a jam at this time in my life" and certainly your Sun (purpose) 4.41 deg Capricorn being impacted by Transiting-Pluto now.  T-Pluto will conjunct your SN in a few years time bringing resolution to the skipped steps.

These transits will be necessary before you can resolve some of your emotional problems (4th), become that "strong self-reliant woman" (Moon 8th), and find, develop and express your true dharma (PP 6th, NN 10th, Neptune 2nd).  Things will definitely improve as Pluto makes its way through Capricorn because it will make easy (fulfillment) aspects to your kite pattern.  As the Pluto transit unfolds, it may release latent talents and capacities into your consciousness.

I can't work out the evolutionary stage from your chart, but I can see how the early 1st Stage Spiritual has been playing out in your life since there is a strong desire to find your true dharma, together with the "appearance" of going back to the Individuated state to resolve your skipped steps. There's a strong emphasis in water houses, also Neptune in Scorpio, and NN in water (Cancer).

If you feel you are to fulfill spiritual work, I think your EA study group is a good start.  The very beginning of 1st Stage Spiritual would involve a decision-making/trial & error process:  I just noticed your unaspected Venus.    

Ellen, do you feel we've nailed it yet?  Any doubts, questions?  I'd be happy to hear from others more experienced at this stage, and I'd also be happy to delve deeper if you wish.
« Last Edit: Jul 28, 2010, 08:25 PM by Linda » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 29, 2010, 03:01 AM »

Hi Ellen,
 
I've been pretty sick for the last while, but ocasionally pop onto the board for a quick read. And I've always been interested in us completing your thread here so its great it hasn't just faded out as it looked it might. Very interesting stuff from everyone, and your responses to them. I felt to add to what the others have said with some additional comments, but dont have enough energy available to analyse things comprehensively or put them in a cohesive order, its more a bunch of ideas....
 
Looking at your chart you seem to have a lot of family stuff going on (SN in 4th conj Sun, Mars & Merc), and a gender switch in recent lives. Mars in Capricorn indicates a lot of repression of your basic instincts in past lives from too much desire (or forced need) to subjugate yourself to authorities and please/satisfy others, at the expense of yourself. As well as being involved through it's conj to the SN, Mars also rules your skipped steps (Jupiter) indicating this has contributed majorly to those skipped steps, and family stuff may be central to what the skipped steps are actually about. In itself Jupiter in Aries is a strong and expanded sense of self/individuality that could easily be very self centered. It seems to me then that "individualising" itself might be your skipped step, brought about by all the pandering to/acquiesing of authorities instead of following your truth in your relationships (Jup in 7th). With Saturn (ruler of your SN) in the 5th, the "authorities" could well have been your father (at the time) in past lives, and certainly in this life it sounds like your current father represents an authority you have had to submit to a great deal.
 
Aquarius via Uranus rules the individualising process in general and you have Saturn in Aquarius indicating a possible blockage with the process, and also in finding your real creative self expression (Saturn in 5th), which will not be resolved by reliance on outside help, it must be resolved by the efforts you make with "your own hands" ... this is the internalising nature of Saturn's pain & limitation, and sense of inadequacy (and Saturn = "hard work") ... but then that growth will be well and truly yours and the mastery attained will never be dependent on anyone else for it's actualisation or sustainment. Saturn in Aquarius also indicates a source of trauma and being in the 5th possibly points to father issues again. While in your childhood you loved your time with your family, this was maybe because you have invested in family situations a great deal in the past (4th house SN and other energies) at the expense of your individuality, and you just orientated there again starting out this life. But your need is to move away from that for good and establish yourself on your own terms (NN 10th, Saturn in Aquarius in 5th, Jupiter in Aries square 4th), but you've always resisted this => leading to skipped steps.
 
Mars in Capricorn shows deep buried resentment and anger at authorities and given its conj to SN and square to Jupiter could almost alone account for most of your anger in this life, whether you were in the individualising stage or not, especially as that aspect looks to be a relive one. But my feeling is that you are still in the 3rd individualising stage and that some of the anger you have felt in this life is the last echoes of 2nd individated anger being exhausted from your system. It's been especially potent in this life because of the skipped steps being brought into full focus this life creating a great confusion and frustration within - that you have also projected without. But now it seems its burnt itself out a lot and you are coming to feel yourself as relatively more calm with a desire to channel the anger constructively into positive expressions.
 
Your gayness to me is possibly just a natural condition due to the recent gender switch not being fully integrated yet, because of all the above acting as a confusing distraction to knowing yourself better: just navigating family and society issues concerning it to arrive at the realisation yourself about it has taken a great chunk of your life. Also Mars in Capricorn will readily adopt a double life as a defense strategy so you have no doubt had to maintain two distinct sets of people in your life - those you trust and those you don't, feeding those you don't all sorts of red herrings as to your actual sexual orientation, even if they weren't actually intrinsically judgemental of gay people. This would have further exacberated your difficulty in resting easy in your own skin re this issue, naturally and at all times.
 
With Pluto in the 12th, your interest in the spiritual is not new. Pluto's SN is in the 4th indicating your spiritual interest may have originated out of (or as a reaction to) family situations, and it's ruler, Saturn, is in Aquarius in the 5th conj the SN of Neptune and squaring Moon and Neptune. Looks like you have also been involved with the matriarchy as an authority within it, but had to hide this side of yourself in more recent lives, basically giving away your truth and living according to patriarchal falsehoods. This has then brought you in this life to actually choose a very conventional and authoritan family to be born into, a complete contradiction to what you sense in your being, with a resulting confusion regarding just who you actually were. And this also indicates that your spiritual interest has been arrested for quite a long time (reflected by Pluto in your 12th opp Chiron in 6th). But now, due to the very strong focus on your skipped steps in this life (Jup square Nodes/Mars/Sun - with the Sun also square Ascendant, assuming your time is good) it's as if you are awakening from a slumber and finally tuning into yourself on your own terms. And as you do so your interest in spirituality is also awakening again.
 
It may take more time for your life to unfold to really see the significance of your spiritual interest, as skipped steps and hiding signatures can obscure the essential reality so much. But for now it seems to me you may likely be a 3rd individuated soul who is finding their own feet after a very long time of denial and repression, and with it a renewed interest in the Divine. Everything you say to me points to the clear need to identify some core talents you have that you can use to develop your sense of self further (reflected for example by Venus, ruler of 2nd being in 5th), which can also serve the purpose of integrating you into society on your own terms, and which will also stabilise you (your sense of identity) at a very core level. Even if these talents are in the "spiritual" field my feeling is that your need is to complete the individualising process, and you would simply be doing that in following those spiritual interests (Uranus in the 12th). Your Pluto in the 12th represents the need to take the plunge in doing this. Chiron in the 6th is opp Pluto and Uranus in the 12th, indicating much resistance to doing so for fear of more persecution, but it's also trining Nep and NN and the likelihood that any steps you take in this direction, no matter how small, will work out much better than your fears would have you believe.
 
The bottom line however is your 4th house (Jup applying to SN in 4th), so that's where you must keep a constant focus in order to keep everything moving progressively forward - processing feelings and emotions by yourself, being present to and honoring your shifting emotional realities as they occur, learning to love and appreciate yourself whether others do or not, being vulnerable without concern for how that makes you look in the eyes of others or whether they will exploit you.
 
And finding something meaningful you can do in the community you live in/society for work - in your case as a (provisional) 3rd individuated this would have to not only be of value to those for whom you are doing it, it needs to be something you genuinely enjoy to do yourself. I know you feel this is a huge challenge ! But it always is for everyone in 3rd individuated a) identifying what they love to do, and b) finding ways to do that for a living. This is THE challenge (in one sense) of 3rd individuated as I understand it, it is the actual process of doing this that contributes to the growth to the soul at this EA stage. And from my observation, it often seems just a huge dream that what a 3rd individuated soul may love to do, is quietly very passionate about, could ever be their full time job that they make a living out of. Well, with Virgo ASC, and Chiron in the 6th opp Pluto/Uranus you are well eqipped to take that "dream" or passion, and via small steps, one after the other, start anyway, even if on a hobby basis. But what you put energy into grows, and if you keep going one day you may find that dream has actually become a reality. This would boost your self image enormously, and that would be a great healing balm to your soul and a potent nail in the coffin to your skipped steps - being your true self in relationship with others (via your career/vocation). (BTW maybe Chiron in the 6th indicates real possibilities as a healer of some kind ?)
 
Well Ellen, thats a few ideas based on you ... being 3rd individuated, but having manifesting 2nd individuated (and at times 1st individuated and even consensus) traits due to skipped steps, with a renewed interest in the spiritual arising, now that you have managed to expel a lot of past debris out of your system. And now feeling empty, facing a void in life direction (as one would totally expect given the above combined with Pluto in Virgo and a Virgo ascendent) but with a few new friends and fellow travellers in life, a new determination (NN in 10th) to get on with fulfilling your intentions and potential, and a clear canvas on which to bring your truest vision for yourself (Plu in 12th) into reality. However, as I said, it's a provisional evaluation, and time may prove that you are actually in cusp indiv/spiritual stage, or even in beginning of spiritual.
 
But for now, as a contrast to Linda and others outlining 1st spiritual for you, I'm proposing you're somewhere in 3rd individuated. But others may see it differently.
 
blessings Upasika
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Linda
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« Reply #28 on: Jul 29, 2010, 04:28 AM »

Hi Upasika,

Sorry you've not been feeling well - hope you improve quickly.  It was great reading your analysis of Ellen's chart, and I agree with what you said about her family issues. Your proposition for 3rd Individuated sounds really feasible.  I'm looking forward to Ellen's feedback, and to further exploration of her evolutionary condition.
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Elen
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« Reply #29 on: Jul 29, 2010, 05:00 PM »

Hi Upasika,

I am so sorry to hear that your illness continues.  I know how difficult illness can be.  May God/dess bless you with healing and vibrant health.

Thank you so much for your thoughts and the effort you put into articulating them.  You make a compelling case for 3rd Individuated. I will go through your post in detail with my responses when I have more time - later tonight or tomorrow I am hoping.  For now I just wanted to offer one piece of info. for you and others to consider.  I know that someone said that JWG said that many people tend to put themselves further along than they are and I certainly think that is possible with me at this point.  However, there is one thing that I would like to share with you and others with regard to my own internal "sense" that leads me to think 1st spiritual as opposed to 3rd individuated.  It has to do with the sense of "been there, done that".  The internal sense I have is that it is not my task necessarily to figure out how to constructively offer something to/for society - to move society along in some way - that I've already done that.  That piece of the puzzle, to the extent that it does crop up, seems to relate strictly to survival needs (ie, I HAVE to find some way that I can contribute so that I can provide for myself and of course I'm not interested in just supporting/contributing to the status quo as that would not reflect my values) It (that piece of the puzzle) also seems to throw me off when I start to orient in that way.  The inner pull that I feel, and that always feels right when I orient to this perspective, is how can I be of service to God/dess.  How can I simply trust - to do what is before me and let go of the rest - to trust that it will all work out - because it is God/dess working through me.  It is a subtle difference, but one that I notice.  That could simply be PPP in the 6th/Pisces....?  And my sense of "been there, done that" could perhaps be memories of prominent 3rd consensus lifetimes, so a confusion about that.

On the surface, I think both orientations end up looking the same.  But I think the thing for me isn't to figure out what my talent is (I do not think that you said this. This is just me having a dialog with myself), but to let go and simply accept that it matters...from the perspective of God/dess, not society (when I orient to thinking about how/why it matters to society, I quickly lose my way).   So I don't know if this sense changes anything.  It could also quite simply be Pluto in 12th playing out, regardless of evolutionary stage and this is precisely the kind of thing that trips me up.  But for me, at this point, this is part of why I am leaning towards thinking very very beginning stages of 1st spiritual.

Blessings,
Ellen
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