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Author Topic: Ellen's Ea state practice thread  (Read 7474 times)
Upasika
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« Reply #60 on: Aug 05, 2010, 07:16 PM »

Hi Linda,

Your post on the paradox situation where a planet is in it's sign's natural opposite house was very interesting - thanks for doing that. I've got some questions to ask you about it, but have to go for the rest of the day now, but will post soon when I've got a chance.

 .... and Ellen, hope you catch up on all your studies. They're obviously important so there's no rush from my side for you to get back, just when it is easy for you ...

Upasika
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Elen
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« Reply #61 on: Aug 06, 2010, 12:29 AM »

Since material values are not going to be important in the 1st stage spiritual, you could find part-time work and see it "truthfully" for what it is:  working for survival purposes, which is enabling you the freedom to pursue your true desire to study various subjects or teach.  Interestingly, Mercury (student) rules your 6th house and also the MC (teacher).  Furthermore, with Neptune in the 2nd house, you can rely on the universe to supply your material needs.


Hi Linda and All,

Just wanted to clarify here: Mercury does not rule my 6th house.  It rules my 12th (and MC, as stated).  Neptune rules my 6th.  Although traditional rulerships would have Jupiter ruling my 6th.... Does EA take this into account?

Ellen


Addition:  Actually, the above is true for Placidus, but not Porphyry (see chart p. 4 of this thread).  Porphyry has Aq on my 6th house cusp, so Uranus rulership.  Mercury does rule Uranus in my chart, so perhaps that is the connection....?


« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2010, 12:33 AM by Ellen » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #62 on: Aug 06, 2010, 03:22 AM »

Ellen,

I've had to modify my post as I was getting off-track.


Rad said:

Quote
The EA stage of anyone is not dependent of understanding the nature of the paradoxes. The underlying orientation to life itself is the basis of one's EA stage.


If the skipped steps were caused by trauma, then Saturn in Aquarius 5th could hold a key, since Saturn rules your Capricorn planets as well as the SN.  

If the skipped steps were caused by guilt (Pluto/Virgo/12th) then the consequences of that guilt would have been avoidance or denial.  This implies judgments:  self-judgment (4th, how you see yourself from within yourself);  and judgments from the outside from family/society (SN/Cap/4th).  

The guilt, and therefore the avoidance and denial, are reinforced by the judgments (Capricorn), which lead to the skipped steps.  


Were the causes of guilt due to man-made rules, rights, wrongs, and moralities (Capricorn)? [/b]


Were the causes of guilt due to 'natural' guilt rooted in violations of Natural Law (Jupiter)?[/b]


Did the skipped steps relate to hiding, suppression or not living according to natural truths?
« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2010, 05:02 PM by Linda » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #63 on: Aug 06, 2010, 05:13 AM »

A while back I asked Rad about paradoxical charts:

Rad's reply:
The general rule of thumb is to help the person understand what the nature and causes are of the underlying paradoxes within them, and then to help them determine a way of resolving those paradoxes. Simple example in the chart you have provided: a deep, natural fear of loss and abandonment which has happened in many lives through misapplication of trust which, in turn, has caused them to emotionally and psychologically isolate themselves from others as a way of compensating for that, which in turn has caused them to feel very alone within the world, which then causes a deep need to connect with and/or be in at least one committed relationship of like mind, yet not knowing how to get there or make that happen because of the fears of abandonment, etc. A paradox. The resolution in this cause is to choose another who is not only of like mind, but one is utterly self reliant at the POINT OF ATTRACTION. The one is self reliant , self empowered, etc will the not have a double agenda which could lead to a recreation of the past life dynamics leading to another misapplication of the trust which then leads to being used all over again.

******

The chart I had posted contained Moon in Scorpio as the facilitator of the SN in Cancer, and Saturn in Scorpio as the facilitator of the NN in Cap.  
.....

So I take it that we would need to understand Ellen's Moon/Taurus/8th (facilitator of NN) square Saturn/Aquarius/5th (facilitator of the SN).  These form part of a t-square with Neptune/Scorpio/2nd;  Saturn at the apex.  The other difficult aspects in the chart are Mars square Jupiter, Sun square Jupiter, and of course the skipped steps in Jupiter t-square the Nodes.  All other aspects in the chart are easy ones.

There would have been misapplications of trust in many past lives caused by a deep natural fear of loss and abandonment....


Linda, I'm wondering what part of the signature was related to the misapplication of trust in the chart Rad was talking about, and that is also the same in Ellen's chart? Would you mind clarifying that for me?

thanks, Upasika
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Linda
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« Reply #64 on: Aug 06, 2010, 05:46 AM »

Upasika,

The first chart that Rad looked at showed the misapplication of trust through the symbols of SN Ruler, Moon in Scorpio, and NN Ruler, Saturn in Scorpio. The woman, through a misapplication of trust, was let down by partners who used and abused her, resulting in abandonment, loss, betrayal, violations of trust (Scorpio).  

In Ellen's chart, since it is also paradoxical, I take it that we need to look at the Pluto dynamic to get an idea of the nature and causes of the underlying paradoxes (which I have done in my preceding post).  What stands out in Ellen's chart is the South Node, for it is the Resolution Node to the skipped steps.  The misapplication of trust in teachers (Jupiter) or partners (7th house) could have resulted in suppression of natural emotions, childlike over-dependence on authority figures, and deep insecurity in herself.  

Since Ellen's North Node has been active in the past, she could have suffered loss, betrayal, abandonment and violations of trust, since her Moon (facilitator) is in the 8th house.

The above is my interpretation - but if Rad reads this, he may wish to clarify for you.
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2010, 04:35 PM by Linda » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #65 on: Aug 07, 2010, 04:19 AM »

Hi Linda,

Thanks for that. I found the post with the chart that you were referring to, http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,80.msg898.html#msg898 and looking at it I can see reasons for Rad saying what he did, but I would not have thought it was just from Moon and Saturn being in Scorpio alone, it looked perhaps like it was in conjunction with several other factors ? So I'm wondering if you are saying in Ellen's chart the Moon in the 8th, just by itself, automatically indicates misapplication of trust? I'm not meaning it doesn't, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of it, as Ellen has confirmed she has had trust issues in this life.

thanks, Upasika
« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2010, 04:33 AM by Upasika » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #66 on: Aug 07, 2010, 04:41 AM »

Upasika,

Yes, the chart that Rad looked at did contain many other factors or reasons for the misapplication of trust.  Bear in mind that every single house is ruled by the opposite of its natural ruler, so the whole chart is subject to "misapplication of trust."  That is the way I understood it at the time.  Scorpio ruling both the SN and NN facilitators only emphasized the requirement for healing/metamorphosis.  Since the paradoxical chart is dealing with "oppositions" of energies, we need to ask, what happened in the past to create the necessity for this type of chart?  Obviously the misapplications of trust would principally relate to relationships due to the oppositions in energies, and then to betrayal, abandonment and loss resulting from them.  A paradoxical chart would then provide the opportunity for healing on every level.  Apparently the betrayals and abandonments had been so deep and traumatic as to warrant a paradoxical chart in this life.  As far as Ellen's chart is concerned, I see that misapplications of trust could have taken place in every house therefore conditioning the planets therein.  I myself also have a paradoxical chart and I know that I've had trouble trusting people and life in general, but that through betrayal and abandonment I've learned to trust more in myself, rather than put all of my trust out there.  Of course this creates the situation that I find myself alone again, with the desire to find just the right person who can restore my faith and trust, rather than get hurt all over again.  Does this make sense?  What do you think?  

I will write to Rad again and ask for clarification, attaching a copy of Ellen's chart.
« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2010, 04:53 AM by Linda » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #67 on: Aug 07, 2010, 06:04 AM »

Hi Linda,

Thanks for elaborating, and I do get the general themes you are explaining, although I'm a bit confused about some of the details. I realise I could be missing the obvious somehow, but thanks for checking it out further with Rad.

blessings Upasika

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Elen
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« Reply #68 on: Aug 07, 2010, 07:49 AM »

Upasika,

Yes, the chart that Rad looked at did contain many other factors or reasons for the misapplication of trust.  Bear in mind that every single house is ruled by the opposite of its natural ruler, so the whole chart is subject to "misapplication of trust."  That is the way I understood it at the time.  Scorpio ruling both the SN and NN facilitators only emphasized the requirement for healing/metamorphosis.  Since the paradoxical chart is dealing with "oppositions" of energies, we need to ask, what happened in the past to create the necessity for this type of chart?  Obviously the misapplications of trust would principally relate to relationships due to the oppositions in energies, and then to betrayal, abandonment and loss resulting from them.  A paradoxical chart would then provide the opportunity for healing on every level.  Apparently the betrayals and abandonments had been so deep and traumatic as to warrant a paradoxical chart in this life.  As far as Ellen's chart is concerned, I see that misapplications of trust could have taken place in every house therefore conditioning the planets therein.  I myself also have a paradoxical chart and I know that I've had trouble trusting people and life in general, but that through betrayal and abandonment I've learned to trust more in myself, rather than put all of my trust out there.  Of course this creates the situation that I find myself alone again, with the desire to find just the right person who can restore my faith and trust, rather than get hurt all over again.  Does this make sense?  What do you think?  

I will write to Rad again and ask for clarification, attaching a copy of Ellen's chart.
Hi Linda, Upasika, All,

I just wanted to add to this as I feel that I am coming to understand some of this a little better in terms of my own life.  Keep in mind that in my chart there are also hiding signatures.  As I have been told by an EA astrologer (Linda, I will respond to your post in more detail, but it will be a bit as I am feeling a little swamped right now), I have experienced trauma in prior lives that has led to me seeking consensus hideouts for safety/security.  That means, of course (and this is me elaborating now on what the EA astrologer said, not what the astrologer actually said to me), that, to satisfy my strong need for safety/security, I have essentially had to betray myself in order to adopt consensus ways of being, ie, my life (lives) since making this decision to hideout has been life(s) where my focus has been not on developing myself, but on learning how to scan the environment for signals/clues/etc for how to behave and then behaving in those ways.  That certainly fits for this life in every way, with the most obvious example being my sexual orientation.   Obviously, this has led to an enormous buildup of anger/rage/frustration and a complete feeling of utter aloneness and also the actual experience of not ever actualizing myself in any way and feeling stumped as to how to go about doing that and feeling completely not helped in any way.  Indeed, I have not been helped because I chose environments in which the emphasis was on me abandoning myself and following the norms, not environments that saw me and fostered my development.  So, while understandable, and perhaps initially necessary, ultimately I have become my own betrayer.  And this pervades every aspect of my life.  

One insight that I am getting about this is that the lesson is a little more complex than just, "I have to learn to do it all myself".  That message does not take into account the paradoxes - "loner" signs (cap) in relationship houses (4th), "Who am I" sign (Aries) in relationship house (7), and relationship sign (Aq) in "me" house (5).  My insight is this: that because I have deeply, profoundly internalized the message that I am all alone, I have in fact recreated that reality over and over.  This is the obstacle that has felt insurmountable to me, ie, I do not WANT to be completely alone, yet because that has been my reality, I have believed that that is in fact what I have to learn.  What I am now just beginning to get a glimmer of is that, in fact, my reality is my reality because I have internalized these messages that are based on hiding and the consequent confusions that have arisen from that.  My BELLIEF is now changing, as is my DESIRE as I am beginning to realize that, in fact, my NEED to feel nurtured and supported is a LEGITIMATE and indeed an essential need.  Yet I have not allowed that reality to develop, keeping it pushed away out of fear - fear based on a history of betrayals - betrayals based on signing up for a reality that was never going to support me and nurture my development.  Is this making sense?  

The other trick to this is the paradox of needing to be vulnerable for growth to occur (Cancer/4th), yet at the same time vulnerability leading to deep betrayal (Moon in 8th), thus reinforcing the need to keep myself protected and isolated (Capricorn in 4th, Scorpio in 2nd).  Again, the reason is the lack of awareness of the hiding situation I have put myself in.  In other words, the reason is NOT because I have to figure it all out myself.  I am beginning to believe strongly that, in fact, growth CANNOT occur without others, and without real and genuine vulnerability.  The missing piece is the awareness of the hiding signatures and how profoundly those have affected my own projections and thus my own reality.  Do I have to be self-sufficient?  Yes.  Absolutely.  But I would also argue that the foundation of self-sufficiency is nurturing which allows for vulnerability which allows for one's true needs to be identified and therefore attended to - nurturing that is appropriate for who a person is.  I am NOT saying that I now will be seeking out others to take care of me.  I AM saying that I DO have a right and profound need to be open about my real needs and fears and to allow the universe to nurture me in these regards.  The example I gave of having the experience of feeling my hand being held - that is the type of thing I am referring to.  That is something I profoundly needed and I was aware of that and wanting that.  And there it was.  There was not a person there holding my hand, yet my hand was definitely being held.  Anyway, I hope all this makes sense.  

So the skipped steps are a big deal, but I think the real clues to understanding them, or at least to really be able to flesh out the picture of them, is to understand the context of the whole chart in this case - and that means understanding the hiding signature (the reason for that) and the paradoxes (which I think can be really understood only when the reasons for the hiding are understood.)

Linda, as for your question about the reasons for the hiding, ie trauma or guilt, I have been told for certain that trauma is a cause.  But I think there is also considerable guilt, both natural and man-made.  One EA astrologer pointed out the importance of Vesta on my IC, signifying past life(s) in the matriarchy and the connection to an entirely different way of understanding sex/sexuality and participating in that.  I think that has lead to man-made guilt, which I feel to be quite profound.  But I also have the sense of natural guilt from the perspective of having participated in the patriarchy and benefitting from that without understanding the negative consequences of that.  Whether or not I was a real, proactive bad guy (as opposed to someone who just was clueless about the realities of the patriarchy - how others suffered while I breezed through), I don't know....

Addition: I initially posted the astrologers who gave me info re: my situation, but I have decided to take that out.

Peace,
Ellen

« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2010, 05:45 PM by Ellen » Logged
bluesky
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« Reply #69 on: Aug 07, 2010, 11:31 AM »

"I have experienced trauma in prior lives that has led to me seeking consensus hideouts for safety/security."

I am using this isolated quote from Ellen's last post to point out that hanging onto some consensus values can be caused by needing to meet simple material needs - the more you "evolve" through individuated and (I'm guessing) spiritual - the fewer your opportunities to provide for yourself in a way that keeps food in the gut and a roof over the head -- never mind all those other things that consensus values may extol as making life worth living - ie. special possessions, fancy trips, etc.

and I say this because there has been an ongoing theme in your threads, Ellen, that has to do with what I think you perceive as obtaining "right work".  so the question here, in this aspect of it, is how do you go about finding right work in the face of having to keep body and soul together? and you can literally see this in the your chart - pluto in virgo/12th house and it's PP in the 6th house in pieces, neptune in the 2nd and neptune being part of the T-square involving the rulers of both the south and north nodes.

I'm wondering if anyone else would like to weigh in on this.
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Linda
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« Reply #70 on: Aug 07, 2010, 05:30 PM »

Hi Linda,
Thanks for elaborating, and I do get the general themes you are explaining, although I'm a bit confused about some of the details. I realise I could be missing the obvious somehow, but thanks for checking it out further with Rad.


Quote from Rad: 
Quote
Each chart has it's own unique signature. In the case of charts that do symbolize the core of paradoxes the symbols, in each chart, are the causes of those paradoxes.



Hi Upasika,


We would need to look at the symbols in the whole of Ellen's chart to ascertain the cause and nature of the paradoxes.  However, I feel we've gone off-track since determining the EA stage is not dependent on understanding the nature of paradoxes, nor can it be determined from the chart itself. 


We needed to focus on Ellen's underlying orientation to life, which we had been trying to do.  I think this whole discussion has revealed Ellen's transition from Individuated to Spiritual stage as she has completely exhausted desires in Individuated.  There's no way she can go back there, but perhaps could now be confused as to "what to do next?"  This is just natural caution at the beginning of a new venture.  She could have been 'sitting on the fence' for a long time, but I think she is now trying to find her niche somewhere.  The old Individuated self-identity based on societal conditioning will not work for her anymore. 


I would agree with the EA astrologer who said that Ellen is at the beginning of 1st Spiritual stage.  Surely it is a matter of trial and error, taking new paths and directions, and seeing where they will lead, without necessarily receiving any guarantees.  I think Ellen just needs to step into this new area with faith (Jupiter/Aries/7th) and learn to trust others who are also in the 1st stage Spiritual.
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Elen
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« Reply #71 on: Aug 07, 2010, 05:40 PM »

Hi All,

Just wanted to post an exchange btw Rad and me following up on a request by Linda on the "paradoxical charts" thread.  I felt it had relevance here.  Might be worth considering if I/we have meandered a little too far off track.

Peace,
Ellen


First, we do not do personal charts on this message board Linda.

Hi Rad,
Just want to get your ok re: the following.  (I assume you or someone else would have stepped in if you felt there was a problem, but given the above highlieghted text, I thought I'd check.)  There's been a lot of conversation on the EA thread re: my evolutionary stage re: the paradoxes, hiding signatures and skipped steps. There seems to be a general consensus that these need to be understood in order to be able to understand the EA stage.  I have been adding a lot myself over the last couple days as things seem to be making more sense for me and I have felt that by sharing these things, that could help others make better sense of the chart and thus wade through the confusing details to get better clarity on assessing my stage.  Just wondering if you feel that this is ok or not for the MB....?

Peace,
Ellen
 Each chart has it's own unique signature. In the case of charts that do symbolize the core of paradoxes the symbols, in each chart, are the causes of those paradoxes.

Thank you.


God Bless, Rad

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Re: Paradoxical charts
« Reply #6 on: Today at 04:21 PM »
Quote
Hi Ellen,
 
 First, I have not been following that thread much as it seemed a great vehicle for all that participate to do it as they see fit. So have been unaware of how 'personal' your chart has become. The EA stage of anyone is not dependent of understanding the nature of the paradoxes. The underlying orientation to life itself is the basis of one's EA stage. It is necessary to discourage doing members of this EA message board from doing their personal charts because, in the end, that's what the message board would become.

God Bless, Rad

 
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Elen
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« Reply #72 on: Aug 07, 2010, 05:42 PM »

Hi Linda,
Thanks for elaborating, and I do get the general themes you are explaining, although I'm a bit confused about some of the details. I realise I could be missing the obvious somehow, but thanks for checking it out further with Rad.


Quote from Rad: 
Quote
Each chart has it's own unique signature. In the case of charts that do symbolize the core of paradoxes the symbols, in each chart, are the causes of those paradoxes.



Hi Upasika,


We would need to look at the symbols in the whole of Ellen's chart to ascertain the cause and nature of the paradoxes.  However, I feel we've gone off-track since determining the EA stage is not dependent on understanding the nature of paradoxes, nor can it be determined from the chart itself. 


We needed to focus on Ellen's underlying orientation to life, which we had been trying to do.  I think this whole discussion has revealed Ellen's transition from Individuated to Spiritual stage as she has completely exhausted desires in Individuated.  There's no way she can go back there, but perhaps could now be confused as to "what to do next?"  This is just natural caution at the beginning of a new venture.  She could have been 'sitting on the fence' for a long time, but I think she is now trying to find her niche somewhere.  The old Individuated self-identity based on societal conditioning will not work for her anymore. 


I would agree with the EA astrologer who said that Ellen is at the beginning of 1st Spiritual stage.  Surely it is a matter of trial and error, taking new paths and directions, and seeing where they will lead, without necessarily receiving any guarantees.  I think Ellen just needs to step into this new area with faith (Jupiter/Aries/7th) and learn to trust others who are also in the 1st stage Spiritual.
Hi Linda,

This seems right on to me.

Ellen

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Linda
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« Reply #73 on: Aug 07, 2010, 05:51 PM »

............there has been an ongoing theme in your threads, Ellen, that has to do with what I think you perceive as obtaining "right work".  so the question here, in this aspect of it, is how do you go about finding right work in the face of having to keep body and soul together? and you can literally see this in the your chart - pluto in virgo/12th house and it's PP in the 6th house in pieces, neptune in the 2nd and neptune being part of the T-square involving the rulers of both the south and north nodes.  I'm wondering if anyone else would like to weigh in on this.


Hi Bluesky,


From the viewpoint that Ellen is at the very beginning of 1st Stage Spiritual, she needs to trust in this new direction (skipped steps Jupiter/Aries/7th) and be receptive that her needs will be met (Neptune 2nd, outlet for the kite).  


Quote from JWG, Pluto I, p.58:
Relative to physical survival, those individuals in a herd state evolutionary condition tend to identify material values as a vehicle to self-sustainment.  We can see the implied limitation here.  Others in the individuated evolutionary condition have learned to identify themselves as the resource creating the means to self-sustainment.  those in the spiritual or universal evolutionary condition have learned that the Source or Universe provides that which they need in order to sustain themselves when one is receptive to that provision.  They commonly isolate themselves from the environment and others in order to concentrate upon their relationship to the Source.


I think Ari Moshe nailed it when he said:

The key is finding work that will allow you to devote yourself to the appropriate forms of service. Your mind's scope of possibilities are narrow based on lifetimes of self sacrifice, persecution for being who you were, and immense emotional repression. However you have so much to offer. The key seems to be to not hold back, but to show up and start ea counseling/leading groups/working with women/writing etc... whatever the forms are (all Jupiter in Aries square nodes, Cancer in 10, with Moon in 8 opposing Neptune 2 with Taurus/Scorpio- as facilitator for Pluto polarity in Pisces in the 6) You will be supported financially by way of your service- the key is to stick to the truth of your being and be willing to let go of the way you think it should look. What can you offer this world? There are many answers here.
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bluesky
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« Reply #74 on: Aug 07, 2010, 06:11 PM »

Linda, thanks for clarifying that.
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