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Dhyana
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« on: Aug 08, 2010, 09:13 PM »

Apologies in advance for such a basic question but I have gotten mixed ideas about the nodes retrograde. I have heard that the Nodes are always retrograde, and, I have heard that they are not. I keep forgetting to ask this question, so before I forget again, I thought I would ask. If they are sometimes rx and sometimes not, then what is the best way to understand  rx nodes according to EA?

Thanks
Dhyana
« Last Edit: Aug 08, 2010, 09:36 PM by Dhyana » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 08, 2010, 10:14 PM »

Hi Dhyana

Apologies in advance for such a basic question but I have gotten mixed ideas about the nodes retrograde. I have heard that the Nodes are always retrograde, and, I have heard that they are not. I keep forgetting to ask this question, so before I forget again, I thought I would ask. If they are sometimes rx and sometimes not, then what is the best way to understand  rx nodes according to EA?

The nodes are points in space, not physical bodies.  Much of astrology uses mean nodes, which basically means the location is averaged and the mean motion is always retrograde.  Jeffrey always taught to use true node, which is the actual location of the nodes at any given time.  The actual motion of the nodes is retrograde 90% of the time.  The reason EA uses true nodes is because that is what actually occurs in the sky.  Mean nodes are an abstraction that does not really exist.

When you consider that the south node (of the moon) represents habitual emotional patterns, you can see that much of our self-image (moon) is based on the past, on what has come before.  The natural function of retrograde is to review, renew, redo - it forces us to internalize and ultimately make conscious what tends to be unconscious.  Symbolically this is the meaning of the nodes being retrograde 90% of the time.  The consciousness of 90% of people needs this review renew redo to break free from the hold of the past.
Steve
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Dhyana
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 08, 2010, 11:04 PM »

Hi Dhyana

Apologies in advance for such a basic question but I have gotten mixed ideas about the nodes retrograde. I have heard that the Nodes are always retrograde, and, I have heard that they are not. I keep forgetting to ask this question, so before I forget again, I thought I would ask. If they are sometimes rx and sometimes not, then what is the best way to understand  rx nodes according to EA?

The nodes are points in space, not physical bodies.  Much of astrology uses mean nodes, which basically means the location is averaged and the mean motion is always retrograde.  Jeffrey always taught to use true node, which is the actual location of the nodes at any given time.  The actual motion of the nodes is retrograde 90% of the time.  The reason EA uses true nodes is because that is what actually occurs in the sky.  Mean nodes are an abstraction that does not really exist.

When you consider that the south node (of the moon) represents habitual emotional patterns, you can see that much of our self-image (moon) is based on the past, on what has come before.  The natural function of retrograde is to review, renew, redo - it forces us to internalize and ultimately make conscious what tends to be unconscious.  Symbolically this is the meaning of the nodes being retrograde 90% of the time.  The consciousness of 90% of people needs this review renew redo to break free from the hold of the past.
Steve

Oooh! Okay, I get it. That makes sense now. I don't think I would have ever found that in a book, so thanks a lot!

With taking what you said, Steve, another question arises -- and that is then if we find a chart where the True Node is one of the 10% that is NOT Rx, then what would be the best way to understand that (seeing that 10% is rather rare!) ?

Thanks a million. I have always wanted to understand the story around the Rx nodes and what True and Mean Nodes meant.

 :)Dhyana
« Last Edit: Aug 08, 2010, 11:08 PM by Dhyana » Logged
Dhyana
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 08, 2010, 11:11 PM »

One more Q - can one true node be Rx and the other NOT, or either they both are or both aren't?
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Steve
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 09, 2010, 12:50 AM »

Quote
if we find a chart where the True Node is one of the 10% that is NOT Rx, then what would be the best way to understand that (seeing that 10% is rather rare!) ?

Jeffrey taught that in his observation the 10% tend to know earlier in life why they are here and what they are supposed to be doing.  (If I recall correctly, he was one of the 10%).  I haven't observed that correlation as being consistent, and some other EA astrologers I've discussed that with haven't either.  I think you can see that symbolically if the nodes are direct, that is, they are not in a review renew redo process, why the person might have a clearer idea earlier in life of why they are here.  In other words, they completed the review renew redo process prior to this birth and are simply all about it in this life.  You will see that developed in some people with direct nodes, for certain.

Quote
One more Q - can one true node be Rx and the other NOT, or either they both are or both aren't?

I will explain a bit of what the nodes are and then let you answer this yourself.  Remember that the north and south nodes of the moon mathematically are always exactly 180 degrees opposite each other (this is not true with the nodes of other planets).  If one lunar node was direct and the other was retrograde, would they at that moment be exactly 180 degrees apart from each other?

Per wikipedia, "The lunar nodes are the orbital nodes of the Moon, that is, the points where the orbit of the Moon crosses the ecliptic (which is the apparent path of the Sun across the heavens against the background stars). The ascending node is where the moon crosses to the north of the ecliptic. The descending node is where it crosses to the south."  It takes 18.6 years for the nodes to traverse the 360 degrees of the zodiac. 

Here's a decent web page I found with diagrams of the nodes and where they are located in the sky.  Its from a Vedic astrology site.
http://www.esotericteaching.org/initiate/bhakti-vaibhava/jyotish/the-vedic-calendar/410-lunar-nodes-and-eclipses
(In Vedic astrology the south node is called Ketu and the NN Rahu - you will see they use the same glyphs that Western astrology does, but they use Ketu and Rahu instead of SN and NN.  The only reason I used a Vedic astrology site is because they had the best diagrams of the nodes I found in a short Google search.)
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Dhyana
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 10, 2010, 01:41 AM »

thnks again steve, for all ur support
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Linda
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 10, 2010, 02:00 AM »

This thread has brought up the question:  since Nodes appear to naturally move in a retrograde motion, how is this indicated in a chart?   When the Rx symbol appears next to the True Node (confusing) what does that mean?  Thanks!
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bluesky
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 10, 2010, 09:03 AM »

I don't have a question about this, would just like to make a comment about the nodes in general.  For a while now I have been questioning the hard and fast interpretation of which node is north (growth) and which is south (past/stagnant).  I have looked at charts which made no sense until I changed the rules, reinterpreting which one should be seen as growth oriented, and the chart actually started "to work".  I don't know who came up with which was which, but the whole thing seems arbitrary to me.  It's not like there's anything written in stone anywhere.

Here's a partial quote from a book by Steven Forrest, in which he explains the math of the nodal axis:

"...So half the time the Moon is above the Ecliptic, half the time it is below.  (And here we shamelessly indulge in the European colonial fantasy that north is "above" and south is "below"!)."

I would take that one step further, adding that "below" came to be interpretated negatively, therefore stagnant and the past.
« Last Edit: Aug 10, 2010, 09:19 AM by bluesky » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 10, 2010, 10:47 AM »

Hi Linda

This thread has brought up the question:  since Nodes appear to naturally move in a retrograde motion, how is this indicated in a chart?   When the Rx symbol appears next to the True Node (confusing) what does that mean?  Thanks!

When the Rx symbol appears next to the True Node it means the node is retrograde.  When the node is direct the RX symbol won't appear next to it.
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Steve
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 10, 2010, 11:08 AM »

hi Bluesky

Quote
I don't have a question about this, would just like to make a comment about the nodes in general.  For a while now I have been questioning the hard and fast interpretation of which node is north (growth) and which is south (past/stagnant).  I have looked at charts which made no sense until I changed the rules, reinterpreting which one should be seen as growth oriented, and the chart actually started "to work".  I don't know who came up with which was which, but the whole thing seems arbitrary to me.  It's not like there's anything written in stone anywhere.

There is nothing written in stone anywhere about anything in astrology.  The entire art/science of astrology is observation and correlation.  Astrologers have observed the movement of bodies in the sky for thousands of years and drawn correlations between their movements and aspects to other bodies, and the effects of those movements on human behavior. 

The correlation between the south node and the past is one of the oldest and strongest of the astrological observations and correlations, going back many many centuries. 

You are not the first person to suggest astrology has the nodal correlations backwards. My personal observations do not match yours - I consistently find the south node reflecting the past. One thing you may want to consider is whether what you are looking at in a person's life is apparent reality or actual reality.  By that I mean, people can behave in ways that completely mask their actual reality, motivations and agendas, so the reality they believe they are living and will passionately tell you they are living is really a flip of their actual reality.  And yet, because of the power of belief and conviction, they will convincingly assure you they are what they are not.  They are extremely convincing to others because they have completely convinced themselves.  In cases like this the apparent reality can be almost a flip of the actual reality.  Thus the south node at times could look like what you think the north node should be, and vice versa.  It  requires much discernment on the part of the astrologer to be able to see through someone's created persona and self-delusions.

If after considering what I said you still feel the north node represents the past and that is working for you, well, go for it.  As you said, its not written in stone.  However the paradigm of Evolutionary Astrology as Jeffrey laid it out does not agree with your conclusion.
Steve
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bluesky
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 10, 2010, 12:10 PM »

Hi Steve,

well, that is food for thought.  It hadn't occurred to me about the perceptive realty v. actual reality.  I will be contemplating that for sure.  I will say that in many of these charts there are conjunctions to one or both of the nodes (but especially the south node) and/or the south node ruler is conjucted itself or otherwise extremely active in the chart.

so, I have said something that's been on my mind for a while about these nodes, and since it's a matter of observation, I have decided to be flexible in appyling emphasis regarding the nodes. if it helps the person at all I feel I need to view the nodal axis as fluid.

and thanks very much for your feedback, Steve.
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Steve
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 10, 2010, 01:10 PM »

Bluesky

Quote
well, that is food for thought.  It hadn't occurred to me about the perceptive realty v. actual reality.  I will be contemplating that for sure.  I will say that in many of these charts there are conjunctions to one or both of the nodes (but especially the south node) and/or the south node ruler is conjucted itself or otherwise extremely active in the chart.

You brought up a good point.  There are exceptions to the general nodal "rules" in EA, based on location and aspects the nodal rulers make.  Things like the north and south node rulers conjunct, the ruler of the NN conjunct the SN and vice versa.  These type of patterns mean effort has been applied in past lives.  What it means is you will see signs of both the NN and SN in these cases as they have both been at least partially developed.  Thus you might see signs of the NN when viewing how the SN actualizes, or vice versa.  That can add to the confusion.

Based on what you added I would say you are observing something real.  Perhaps the issue is that you are looking at the nodes as the full cause when there are other factors involved that alter the typical behavior of the nodes in certain positions.   Without taking those into account it might seem like in this chart the SN points to the future and the NN to the past, when actually the whole signature is pointing out that the nodal lessons have already been partially learned prior to the present life.

Also, you really must look at the the location of Pluto and its polarity point, because the nodal behaviors play out IN RELATION TO the Soul's underlying intentions as indicated by Pluto and PPP by house and sign.  A south node in the 3rd house in Sag is going to play out quite differently when Pluto is in the 1st house in Leo vs Pluto in the 12th house in Libra.   

A good example is the EA principle that some Souls take on Leo in a given life because they have been excessively deflated in a series of past lives and need to pump the ego up a bit to balance the scales.  Vs a "true" Leo persona.  Such a person may display quite the opposite of Leonian behavior much of the time.  Without understanding this principle one could think the Leo is from the past and the person is here to develop humility, when in some cases quite the opposite would be the truth. 
Steve
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bluesky
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 10, 2010, 01:34 PM »

yes, and I can think of one chart I have in particular where the north node ruler conjuncts the south node, and vice versa...seriously!

I really need to keep in the mind the bottom line, pluto and it's PP. Not to mention the evolutionary state, which is crucial.

thanks again for your feedback, you just can't get stuff like that in books (unless they're EA).
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Elen
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 10, 2010, 03:37 PM »

Steve: "A good example is the EA principle that some Souls take on Leo in a given life because they have been excessively deflated in a series of past lives and need to pump the ego up a bit to balance the scales.  Vs a "true" Leo persona.  Such a person may display quite the opposite of Leonian behavior much of the time.  Without understanding this principle one could think the Leo is from the past and the person is here to develop humility, when in some cases quite the opposite would be the truth."


Wow.  Just wanted to say that this is a REALLY thought-provoking example.  Thanks for posting it.

Ellen


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ari moshe
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 10, 2010, 04:33 PM »

Hi Bluesky, here is a link where various nodal configurations involving the nodes and their rulers are discussed that may be of interest to you:
Quote


Steve wrote:
Quote
people can behave in ways that completely mask their actual reality, motivations and agendas, so the reality they believe they are living and will passionately tell you they are living is really a flip of their actual reality.  And yet, because of the power of belief and conviction, they will convincingly assure you they are what they are not.  They are extremely convincing to others because they have completely convinced themselves.  In cases like this the apparent reality can be almost a flip of the actual reality.  Thus the south node at times could look like what you think the north node should be, and vice versa.  It  requires much discernment on the part of the astrologer to be able to see through someone's created persona and self-delusions.

I wanted to add something that I noticed when it comes to astrological polarities (ie the nodes). That the shadow of one sign LOOKS A LOT LIKE a distorted version of it's polarity. For example Virgo can have the appearance of having it all together, being perfect and pure- not being bothered by anything. This seeming peacefulness looks a lot like Pisces doesn't it? Yet it can easily just be a compensation for feeling really chaotic inside.
Ari Moshe
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