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Author Topic: practice determining the ea stage of a child  (Read 3773 times)
Elen
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 21, 2010, 08:56 PM »


Does anyone feel that I excluded spiritual too soon?

All I can say is I am SO not the person to ask!  Grin  But for real: the one thought I had about this is that, because he is being raised by 1st Ind trying to find a way to fit into Consensus, his exposure to the spiritual world has been fairly limited.  If there are no hiding signatures (is this true? Cancer/Cap in 12th/6th intercepted; Moon/Scorpio/4th - I don't know if this constitutes hiding, but I wonder...), why would a 3rd Ind (or beyond) Soul choose to incarnate in a 1st Ind family trying to fit in....?  Except perhaps, to learn humility.  Hmmm, that could suggest spiritual in itself.  But, given Rad's input, it could simply be for the purpose of learning to integrate his individuated sense of self and developed talents into the larger social fabric.  He is by nature very self-absorbed (yes?).  Yet his chart suggests a push to move beyond this (5th house=past; 11th house=future; 7th house emphasized, as is 4th).

Ellen,
Quote
Hi bluesky,

I don't have a definitive answer to this but my own thinking is that he seems to have a very strong sense of self-identity and he reacts VERY strongly - to the point of verbalizing that he wants to kill those whom he feels are threatening this sense of self-identity.  I don't think 1st ind would 1) have such a strong sense of who they are and 2) react so strongly to protect their sense of self (1st Ind would be trying very hard to fit in).  I'd like to hear what Ari has to say...

Peace,
Ellen

His desire to kill someone is actually because he perceives that he is being attacked. He literally perceives a reality that is a function of unresolved trauma. So I personally don't think this would be an appropriate justification for third individuated. First stage individuated does have an innate insecurity about not fitting in to the consensus, but it doesn't mean that every soul in first individuated will not be violent in the way that max is.

Ari Moshe

Thanks for clarifying this, Ari.

Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #31 on: Aug 21, 2010, 09:02 PM »

Hi Ari,
Here's my thinking to date: with no hiding signatures as you pointed out and no skipped steps, assessing his evolutionary state should be more straight forward than if these signatures were present. 

Consensus: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for consensus: there seems to be no evidence that he desires to fit in in any way, no evidence that his behavior is rooted in an effort to belong at the cost of his own individuality.  To me, this would also rule out 1st ind.

Spiritual: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for spiritual.  He is open-minded, but does not seem, within himself, to be particularly oriented to the spiritual.  How much of this has to do with limited exposure, until recently, is a question for me; if I am understanding correctly, his exposure has been to orthodox (consensus) religion and at the same time to parental ambivalence – they themselves do not feel committed, yet they want very much to belong.  He likes yoga and practices a lot with you.  And he is very aware of your meditation practice and very respectful of it.  But that seems more to do with the open-mindedness of Individuated rather than the spiritual desire of the Spiritual stage.  Also, with no hiding or skipped step signatures, there is no reason to assume that indeed he is spiritual but chose a 1st individuated household to be born into to either work some things through or to avoid some sort of persecution (note however that Cap is intercepted in 6th, Cancer in 12th, Chiron is in 6th and the Moon is in Scorpio in the 4th, Pluto rules the Moon, but not the 4th).

The case for Individuated:
1) he is very sensitive towards others and, perhaps more importantly, treats them with respect
2) he is intellectually curious and precocious; he thinks for himself
3) his outbursts suggest to me that he is guarding his individuality quite intensely – that it is so important to him that threats to it instigate a profound and automatic “me vs. them” response. Yet at the same time there is a sense that he already knows who he is; that that is not the issue.  Rather, it’s that he knows who he is and reacts when this feels to him to be threatened/challenged or when events do not play out as he feels they should given his strong inner sense of identity.   This was already addressed by Ari in a prior post.

Some notes about his chart:
1)   Pluto/Mars in last quarter balsamic phase (47 degrees =waning semi-square=primary life)  letting go, preparing for new cycle
2)   Sun conjunct Pluto (Quoting Rad: In his context it means that his Soul is bringing forwards from other lifetimes highly developed capacities and abilities that will serve as the very purpose of his life. One of the primary archetypal dynamics, or themes, that is being brought forwards correlates to his capacity to innovate and invent for the betterment of others. The evolutionary lessons for ANY SOUL correlate the the central theme of the Soul's life.)
3)   Pluto/Neptune in Crescent Septile phase: fated events (Neptune in Aq/7th) involving others; fated events could also come in the form of shock/trauma that perhaps is not easily identifiable
4)   Pluto/Sag/5th, SN/Sag/5th (ruler Jupiter/Leo/1st): carries within him from the past a sense of self-importance
5)   NN/Gemini/11th (ruler Mercury/Sag/5th conjunct Pluto):  developing intellect, expanding through connection with a variety of others/ideas/associations
6)   Grand Trine: Neptune/NN/Moon (Neptune sextile Pluto): fated events possibly through family connections leading to growth/evolution; traumatic events arising from family meant to trigger evolution/growth
7)   Saturn in Gemini in 11th trine Uranus/Aq/7th : challenges to the intellect and the trauma that results lead to evolutionary breakthroughs. Here’s what JWG says about the waxing trine: The first quarter phase trine means that things have come to a temporary head with respect to evolutionary development. The person prior to this aspect has been struggling to actualize its own inherent individual expression of the two planets. It has come through many trials and tribulations. It has come through the need to instinctually assert itself and now it is time to develop it in the sense of total integration. The trine in the first quarter phase means that it is time to integrate this new evolutionary impulse within the ongoing daily context of the person's life. To have it a living reality every single day. Not something that is sought for or something to be held out as a carrot or a potential promise on yet another distant horizon, but to be established and lived out daily. The benefit of the trine in this arrangement is to have an understanding of all that has preceded it. To take the best of the past, i.e., to no longer fear it and to integrate it into the now, the best of both worlds. At best, this aspect demonstrates leadership, the courage to pioneer the new and knowing how to integrate it. That is the power of the trine. One the other hand, the characteristic of all non-stressful aspects is that the individual may reach a degree of comfortability and try to maintain just that and resist the impulse to change it. Thus, it maintains the status quo even if it is its own individual status quo.)
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bluesky
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 21, 2010, 09:04 PM »

Hi Ellen, about being part of a family that is not in the same stage as himself - I was told by an EA astrologer that this kind of circumstance serves the purpose of contrast ie. between himself and them, and himself and the environment in general. The impression I got from this astrologer's response to my question about this was that it would help the person along (somehow, I guess).

About that hiding - Ari says he doesn't see that kind of a signature in Max's chart - but I'm hoping either of you could elaborate on such a "hiding" signature, if it doesn't throw the discussion off too much.
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Elen
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 21, 2010, 09:19 PM »

Hi Ellen, about being part of a family that is not in the same stage as himself - I was told by an EA astrologer that this kind of circumstance serves the purpose of contrast ie. between himself and them, and himself and the environment in general. The impression I got from this astrologer's response to my question about this was that it would help the person along (somehow, I guess).

Hi bluesky,

Thanks for this.  I can see how for Max, being born into a 1st ind family oriented towards consensus could facilitate his evolution.  I see it as having to do with the need to move beyond his own self-absorption and integrate his talents in a constructive way into the social fabric (assuming 3rd Ind, this would be to move society along).


About that hiding - Ari says he doesn't see that kind of a signature in Max's chart - but I'm hoping either of you could elaborate on such a "hiding" signature, if it doesn't throw the discussion off too much.

Hiding would be evidenced by a pronounced Neptune/12th house/Pisces signature in the chart.  There doesn't seem to be much there.  But I'm not sure how much weight should be given to an intercepted 12th house, and perhaps also Neptune's septile to Pluto...
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ari moshe
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 21, 2010, 09:21 PM »

Hi Ellen and Bluesky-

Thank God, I'm really busy at this time, so just wanted to let you know I wont be able to respond fully until tomorrow night or Monday.
God Bless,
Ari Moshe
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bluesky
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 21, 2010, 09:30 PM »

ok, Ari.

Ellen,
About that hiding - Ari says he doesn't see that kind of a signature in Max's chart - but I'm hoping either of you could elaborate on such a "hiding" signature, if it doesn't throw the discussion off too much.
Hiding would be evidenced by a pronounced Neptune/12th house/Pisces signature in the chart.  There doesn't seem to be much there.  But I'm not sure how much weight should be given to an intercepted 12th house, and perhaps also Neptune's septile to Pluto...
[/quote]
Thanks, I was wondering about that.
« Last Edit: Aug 21, 2010, 09:32 PM by bluesky » Logged
Dhyana
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 22, 2010, 02:08 AM »

Hi Bluesky,

Here is a link to a page with more discussion about "Piscean Hiding" etc. Scroll down the page a bit and start with what Steve began to share, and the few posts following...

http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,181.75.html

Hope that helps.

Dhyana
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Elen
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 22, 2010, 08:06 AM »

HiAri, bluesky, All,


This quote of Steve's from another thread (see Dhyana's link above) leads me to believe Max is 3rd Ind. Here's the quote:  "3rd stage individuated...the Soul is becoming increasingly aware of the existence of other spiritual realities, prior to its beginning to adopt them as the center of its way of life".  Max was born into a 1st Ind family seeking belonging in consensus religion.  His relationship with Ari is giving him exposure to "other spiritual realities" thus "increasing his awareness".  Ari has stated that Max, at the age of 7, already has a very global understanding of the world and other people, suggesting prior lives in Ind.  Rad has stated (and I think he was thinking in terms of 3rd Ind, but he would have to clarify this) that the Sun conjunct Pluto, in Max's case, is about bringing forward a special talent to move society along.  With regard to bluesky's thinking of cusp 2nd/3rd Ind, maybe a good way to begin to explore that and clarify would be to consider how Sun conjunct Pluto would manifest in 2nd Ind.  In terms of Max's outbursts suggesting 2nd Ind rather than 3rd, I'm not sure I agree given his age and given the evidence of prior life trauma.  Though I can definitely see the point with this reasoning and am not entirely clear.  However, it may just be something he has to work through.  Cancer is one of the signs intercepted.  And Mars is in Max's 4th.  Max's self-absorption to me does not feel narcissistic necessarily nor does it feel defensive.  It seems more like a profound inner need - to be in complete touch with himself at this time as part of his developmental process (so that later he will indeed be able to bring forward for the benefit of others his special talent; the evolutionary growth here would perhaps be that in this lifetime he can't stay there, but has to move beyond it.)  But Ari would have to clarify all of this.

As for how Sun conjunct Pluto would manifest in 2nd Ind, this is where I get stumped.  I'll have to think about it, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd be very interested in reading them.

Peace,
Ellen

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bluesky
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 22, 2010, 10:32 AM »

thanks for that link Ellen, Dhyana! Smiley
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2010, 07:28 PM by bluesky » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 22, 2010, 12:41 PM »

thanks for that link Ellen.

Your welcome, bluesky, but I think it is Dhyana you want to thank.  She did all the work of hunting it down and posting it... Thanks, Dhyana Cool

Ellen
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Dhyana
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« Reply #40 on: Aug 22, 2010, 01:35 PM »

OH, that's no biggy -- i knew where it was already.. ur so sweet Ellen

D Grin
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ari moshe
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« Reply #41 on: Aug 22, 2010, 03:02 PM »

Hi Bluesky,

Quote
Hi Ari and Ellen,

I am wondering too, if 1st spiritual should be excluded.

about the "wanting to kill"...my own opinion is that is 2nd individuated.  I say that because at a minimum, that stage is characterized by defensiveness (not necessarily a negative connotation, think self-defense) and I'm thinking that 3rd ind. would have better coping mechanisms...but he is still very young, so I think you would really have to know him, like do you do, Ari.

for what it's worth, I would put Max on the cusp of 2nd and 3rd individuated.  if this was true, he could easily move back and forth between them, displaying qualities of both.

************
One more thing - Ari, do you notice any self-destructive tendencies in Max?

Wanting to kill as it is, is no reason to consider second individuated. The impulse to kill is a switch that turns on when he senses that he is under attack. Second stage individuated will easily manifest anger at the status quo, and try their hardest to maintain their own sense of individuality as to not get sucked back into the consensus. Max's anger and self defense has nothing to do with that. I also don't agree that third stage individuated would have 'better coping mechanims'. Have no third stage individuated souls ever committed murder?
The same concept is true for an idea that I think was discussed on the ashley thread. For example: a soul who is emotionally mature isn't necessarily more evolve than a soul who isn't emotionally mature. We can have a soul who is first stage spiritual who has immense build up of anger due to repression or hiding- this soul may be more out of touch with their emotions than a soul in the consensus state.

About being on the cusp between second and third: I don't see that because shows clear signs of already knowing his innate individuality, and what he wishes to contribute to the collective in terms of social innovation. This is a soul that is going to find ways to unlock it's creative potential to the MAX (hehe).
Ari Moshe

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ari moshe
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« Reply #42 on: Aug 22, 2010, 03:03 PM »

Oh yeah- good question Bluesky about self destructive tendencies. I do not notice any of that.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #43 on: Aug 22, 2010, 03:23 PM »

Quote
Here's my thinking to date: with no hiding signatures as you pointed out and no skipped steps, assessing his evolutionary state should be more straight forward than if these signatures were present. 

I agree

Consensus: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for consensus: there seems to be no evidence that he desires to fit in in any way, no evidence that his behavior is rooted in an effort to belong at the cost of his own individuality.  To me, this would also rule out 1st ind.

Spiritual: Based on your descriptions, there seems to be no evidence for spiritual.  He is open-minded, but does not seem, within himself, to be particularly oriented to the spiritual.  How much of this has to do with limited exposure, until recently, is a question for me; if I am understanding correctly, his exposure has been to orthodox (consensus) religion and at the same time to parental ambivalence – they themselves do not feel committed, yet they want very much to belong.  He likes yoga and practices a lot with you.  And he is very aware of your meditation practice and very respectful of it.  But that seems more to do with the open-mindedness of Individuated rather than the spiritual desire of the Spiritual stage.  Also, with no hiding or skipped step signatures, there is no reason to assume that indeed he is spiritual but chose a 1st individuated household to be born into to either work some things through or to avoid some sort of persecution (note however that Cap is intercepted in 6th, Cancer in 12th, Chiron is in 6th and the Moon is in Scorpio in the 4th, Pluto rules the Moon, but not the 4th).

Will you explain that last point a bit more- what are you trying to show with those signatures?

The case for Individuated:
1) he is very sensitive towards others and, perhaps more importantly, treats them with respect
2) he is intellectually curious and precocious; he thinks for himself
3) his outbursts suggest to me that he is guarding his individuality quite intensely – that it is so important to him that threats to it instigate a profound and automatic “me vs. them” response. Yet at the same time there is a sense that he already knows who he is; that that is not the issue.  Rather, it’s that he knows who he is and reacts when this feels to him to be threatened/challenged or when events do not play out as he feels they should given his strong inner sense of identity.   This was already addressed by Ari in a prior post.

Some notes about his chart:
1)   Pluto/Mars in last quarter balsamic phase (47 degrees =waning semi-square=primary life)  letting go, preparing for new cycle

2)   Sun conjunct Pluto (Quoting Rad: In his context it means that his Soul is bringing forwards from other lifetimes highly developed capacities and abilities that will serve as the very purpose of his life. One of the primary archetypal dynamics, or themes, that is being brought forwards correlates to his capacity to innovate and invent for the betterment of others. The evolutionary lessons for ANY SOUL correlate the the central theme of the Soul's life.)
3)   Pluto/Neptune in Crescent Septile phase: fated events (Neptune in Aq/7th) involving others; fated events could also come in the form of shock/trauma that perhaps is not easily identifiable
4)   Pluto/Sag/5th, SN/Sag/5th (ruler Jupiter/Leo/1st): carries within him from the past a sense of self-importance
5)   NN/Gemini/11th (ruler Mercury/Sag/5th conjunct Pluto):  developing intellect, expanding through connection with a variety of others/ideas/associations
6)   Grand Trine: Neptune/NN/Moon (Neptune sextile Pluto): fated events possibly through family connections leading to growth/evolution; traumatic events arising from family meant to trigger evolution/growth
7)   Saturn in Gemini in 11th trine Uranus/Aq/7th : challenges to the intellect and the trauma that results lead to evolutionary breakthroughs. Here’s what JWG says about the waxing trine: The first quarter phase trine means that things have come to a temporary head with respect to evolutionary development. The person prior to this aspect has been struggling to actualize its own inherent individual expression of the two planets. It has come through many trials and tribulations. It has come through the need to instinctually assert itself and now it is time to develop it in the sense of total integration. The trine in the first quarter phase means that it is time to integrate this new evolutionary impulse within the ongoing daily context of the person's life. To have it a living reality every single day. Not something that is sought for or something to be held out as a carrot or a potential promise on yet another distant horizon, but to be established and lived out daily. The benefit of the trine in this arrangement is to have an understanding of all that has preceded it. To take the best of the past, i.e., to no longer fear it and to integrate it into the now, the best of both worlds. At best, this aspect demonstrates leadership, the courage to pioneer the new and knowing how to integrate it. That is the power of the trine. One the other hand, the characteristic of all non-stressful aspects is that the individual may reach a degree of comfortability and try to maintain just that and resist the impulse to change it. Thus, it maintains the status quo even if it is its own individual status quo.)

Thank you Ellen- you made a lot of really good points!
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #44 on: Aug 22, 2010, 03:35 PM »

Hi Ellen,

Quote
As for how Sun conjunct Pluto would manifest in 2nd Ind, this is where I get stumped.  I'll have to think about it, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd be very interested in reading them.

Here's my take on it:

The Sun correlates to the purpose of the life, it's the unique contribution that each soul presents to the world. Through the Sun, the entire chart finds creative expression and purpose. When the Sun is on Pluto, as I understand it, it refers to a special purpose that has been brought forth from prior lifetimes. The intent of course is to express that unique gift by way of the nn, it's ruler and the Pluto polarity point. Otherwise, the Pluto Sun conjunction can manifest as an intensely self focused orientation. In this case, with the ppp in the 11th, with Mercury bringing us right back to Pluto and the Sun, it implies that evolutionary necessity to learn to open his heart, to share himself in a way that serves the community, not just himself.

That being said, we can apply that archetype to second individuated if we wanted to see how that would manifest. All of these lessons take shape in the context of his own subculture/community. The sharp contrast in the third individuated is he is literally thinking about society en-large, as there is no longer any evolutionary need to remain isolated from society.
Ari Moshe
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