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ari moshe
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« on: Apr 11, 2009, 04:52 PM »

decided i'll make a new thread about defining the soul to continue the discussion happening on the retrograde planets.

so lets see if i understad this. i'm really aiming to comprehend more intensely what the soul actually is.

i see a peice of candy. i am aware of my desire for candy- and the experience of lack in not having that candy. if my awareness is soul- then my desire for candy is just a manifestation of soul identifying with the past. sugar=security. if i choose to understand my desire and find deeper meaning in it, it means my soul is at a point where it is ready for and choosing further evolution.

"The common probelm is that is limit, or the cause of the stagnation, is not consciously known by the Soul. in other words, the Soul is only aware of the probelm, and the overwhelimg feeling of not getting anywhere. This is extactly where the birth chart is so helpful."

so, in order to evolve, understanding everything associated with my pluto (say natal pluto in the second conj venus=sugar addiction) and it's relationship to the nodes/everything about the nodes will give me a sense of how to shift my soul's identification with the past, to a higher, more spiritualized ego that right now only represents the unknown and scary.

the soul wishes to evolve. the ego exists as a function for that evolution to take place correct?
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OsaOsa
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 12, 2009, 12:44 AM »

I may not be understanding you, but I hope I am, however I have no answers merely additional frustrated (at least in my case) questions.  I get confused about the nature of the soul - yogananda frequently mentions it as a 'nothing but' type of statement, i.e., entirely false - just illusions, no reality, etc, etc. - if it is then why the evolution if it is 'nothing' why the apparent NEED for evolution if in the end it's 'all the same' afterall...I think I'm making sense & I've found this very frustrating in my understanding.  If it is all illusion, what need to evolve, and indeed, what, precisely would be 'evolving' anyway?

I think I undetstand in EA the function of the ego to soul, but if it is all moot anyway why talk about it or WHY experience (if that's what is happening utlimately...maybe this temporal reality isn't happening temporally whatsoever) these issues if they mean nothing which is what is implied when Yogananda says that life, ego and it's experiences are illusory and essentially 'meaningless'...ie, nothing , he nowhere, that I know of says anything about the experiences of the ego through life having spiritual, or direct spiritual impact in an evolutionary capacity, he is always saying how illusory all perceptions are - then why have them?!? if not for some purpose, but he never addresses that.   Then, why evolve, or have the apperance thereof?
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adina
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 12, 2009, 08:15 AM »

Hi Osaosa,

I have to say that I’ve never come across any reference by Yogananda that the soul is “entirely false, just illusions,” that it “means nothing,” etc. Instead, he has described it as individualized spirit. In the Bhagavad Gita, Yogananda defines the soul and its upward and downward evolution. The soul as individualized spirit is eternal. It can know no ‘birth’ and ‘death,’ as the physical body does. The soul enters the causal body, then the astral body, and finally the physical body. In Pluto I, Jeffrey reiterates the definition of the soul as an “immutable consciousness that has its own individuality or identity that remains intact from life to life.”

In one of his books (and I can’t remember which one now) Yogananda counsels his disciples to take the following attitude: “No birth, no death, no caste have I. Father, Mother have I none. Blessed Spirit, I am he. I am the Infinite.”  For while it exPERiences having parents, etc. in different lifetimes, the soul, the individualized spirit, exists independently FROM those experiences.

The “illusion,” then, if we can use that word, is when the ego identifies itSelf AS the body, with its current experiences. My understanding of Maya (illusion) is that each incarnation, while it feels very ‘real’ when we are in it, is transitory. It doesn’t last, while the soul goes on from lifetime to lifetime. In that essence, it is the experiences of the soul while it is IN the body that we can call illusory, because these are NOT everlasting, while the soul itself IS. And yet, it is these very experiences that help the soul discover what it is and is not, or as Kristen noted in another post, “Neti, neti,” not this, not that.

The evolution of the soul, then, as both Yogananda AND Jeffrey have described it is simply the elimination of all separating desires (Jeffrey) and the elimination of false identity with the body (Yogananda). Going back to the reference in the Gita, evolution is the “opposite” motion of the soul…. The return trip, so to speak, as it sheds it’s identification with the physical body, the astral body and finally the causal body, to become one with the Infinite once again, when we again realize our ‘true’ essence as immutable spirit, pure BEING, a state in which we are “all” and “nothing” at the same time.

I hope this helps. Perhaps others will add some of their own understandings.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 12, 2009, 11:09 AM »

"The “illusion,” then, if we can use that word, is when the ego identifies itSelf AS the body, with its current experiences."

so about the ego- being as the ego doesn't have any substantial existence in itself, are you really saying when the soul identifies itself as body?

the conflict in understanding for me is if the soul is an immutable consciousness, how can it experience lack?
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cranberry
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 12, 2009, 01:18 PM »

Hi Ari.... when you say:

"if the soul is an immutable consciousness, how can it experience lack?"

The best explanation I've had given to me, is.....  the soul doesn't experience lack.  The soul is an unending stream of life that comes directly from the "Source"... (what some call God).  The Source ... is not "out there somewhere"... but in us.  The Source explores itself through continual creation. We, as aspects of God's self also explore a particular unique part of the Source (ourself).  We reach a point where we also can create .... we transform self (create), becoming greater than we were, its a continual re-birthing of creation, adding to creation.  Each new re-birthing takes us closer to the "heart" of the Source.... not from lack... but from the opposite, from accumulated abundance from the higher self (Source) that creates the ever new aspect of Source to explore.  It is the "I Am".... "I Am what"?... the Source explores what "I Am" is.   It is the forever creation of continual creation of the never ending stream of life.... that does not lack.   

(I hope I said that clearly enough to convey my meaning.)
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2009, 01:36 PM by cranberry » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 13, 2009, 12:12 AM »

yes, that makes a lot of sense to me.

so then the soul doesn't feel lack or insufficiency in itself- but the identity "interprets", so to speak, the desire of itSelf (the soul) as an experience of lack?

i LOVE how revealing working with pluto and the nodes are- but the languge we use to describe it often throws me off.

the following statement makes sense to me in regards to how i understand pluto and how it functions within the totality of our existence- im curious if this is resonant with the ea philosophy:

To speak about my own or any person's natal pluto- we are translating an absolutely holy divine intent, into a fuzzy state of perceived lack. the soul doesn't lack- it's just seeking more of itself.
the divine intent, the perceived lack, and the translation between the two are all arising within who I AM.

Said astrologically: there exists an ever changing and adopting identity structure (moon, nodes) that is translating and facilitating a soul's intent to experience itself (Scorpio, Pluto) as one with it's creator (Pisces, Neptune).

i have more to ask- but i want to make sure we're at least dancing to the same song!

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adina
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 13, 2009, 08:12 AM »

Neat stuff here, cranberry and ari.

I would add that the experience of lack (astrologically Virgo is opposite Pisces) occurs when consciousness in human form... the center of gravity OF that consciousness.. is centered in the ego, rather than the soul. When you consider the natural evolutionary states, then MOST people's center of gravity of consciousness is centered in the ego, not the soul, and thus experience some forum of, some degree of "lack."  It is thru many, many incarnations that we move that center of gravity from ego to soul until the last stage of the 3rd stage spiritual and liberation. But even in a human form, or maybe we need to say because of being in a human form, we still experience limitations because OF that form.   
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Rad
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 13, 2009, 12:24 PM »

Hi,
 You may find this useful. This is what Jeffrey wrote about the Soul . This is posted on the main EA website that I have copied and pasted here.                                                       
 
                                                                 THE SOUL
The word Soul has been a word in almost every human language language system that have ever been on Earth. So what is it ? Can we open up the brain and find it ? No, obviously we can not. But we can not open up the physical body and find emotion either for example. Yet we know we all have emotions. Can we open up the brain and find thought ? No. Yet, we all know we at least have a thought or two in our heads. Can we open up the body and find sadness, or depression, or happiness, or love ? No. Yet, we all know that these things exist within us. So obviously we are dealing with the nature of energy. The Soul is energy which is no different than the energy of consciousness itself. Again, we can´t open the brain and find consciousness. Consciousness is one of the very greatest ‘mysteries´ of all to scientists for they can not explain it´s origins or even how it came to be. Consciousness correlates astrologically to Neptune. This is exactly the starting point for what we call religion and philosophy: the human need to contemplate and consider, within the desire to know, where we come from and why. In turn this becomes the causative factor for ‘beliefs´ where beliefs are result of the human pondering upon the origin of life itself. But is there a difference between beliefs and actual knowing ? Is there a way to know the answer to the big cosmic questions versus to need to believe in an answer ? The happy news is that there is. For example by the sheer fact that there is a manifested Creation that exists as fact there must also be TRUTHS THAT INHERENTLY EXIST because of the fact of the manifested Creation in the first place. By the fact of it´s existence most of us can easily reason that there has to be something that is the origin of the Creation. In generic language we could call that something the Origin Of All Things, or The Source, and in religious terminology it is called God or the Goddess.

Consciousness is certainly part of the manifested Creation. It exists. That which is the origin of consciousness, of itself, must also be conscious. Thus the totality of consciousness emanates from this Source. As an observable fact we all know that consciousness is in all living things: all life forms. And all of these life forms have the appearance of being separate from all other life forms yet are simultaneously connected to them: two plants next to each other appear separate yet are simultaneously connected to one another by the sheer fact of being plants. So on the one hand there is in fact the individualizing aspect of consciousness, yet, on the other, the universal aspect of consciousness which binds all the individual aspects of consciousness together. Another way of illustrating this is the famous story of the wave and the ocean. Most of us would agree that it is the ocean that is the origin of the wave. Yet from the point of view the wave, if the individualizing aspect of consciousness were centered there, the wave appears and seems separate. In other words if the center of gravity for consciousness where within the wave then from that center of gravity the wave appears, and is experienced, as something separate from it´s own source: the ocean. On the other hand if the center of gravity within consciousness were the wave itself then the ocean simultaneously experiences it´s totality while at the same time experiencing the individualizing aspects of itself as manifested in the waves that emanate from it.

In the very same way then the Universal Consciousness which is the origin of all consciousness has created and manifested the totality of the manifested Creation. Which of course includes the human being and the consciousness within it. And within human consciousness there exists a natural individualizing aspect to it. This individualizing aspect to it occurs as a natural result of the human life form having distinct and individual forms relative to the its root: the human life form as a seed, so to speak, that produces many other branches that is no different than the ocean and the wave. Thus, each human life form has it´s own individualizing consciousness that is called the Soul. The Soul, then, is an immutable consciousness, or energy, that is naturally part of the Universal Consciousness that has created it in the first place. Immutable here means that which can not be destroyed. Why ? Because energy can never be destroyed, it can only change form. To evolve.

So how does the Soul evolve ? What dynamics are inherent within it that are the cause of it´s own evolution ? Within all human souls there exists two antithetical desires where DESIRE IS THE DETERMINENT OF EVOLUTION.</font color> One desire is to the RETURN to that which is the origin of us, of all of Creation, in the first place. And the other desire is to SEPARATE from that which is the Origin Of All Things. This simple inner dynamic within the Soul is also the natural cause, or law, of free choice, or free will. The evolution of the Soul is simply based on a progressive elimination of all separating desires to the exclusion of only one desire that can remain: to return to the Origin Of All Things. This does not require any belief system at all, or any religion that one must belong too. This simple truth, because it is a function of natural law, can be validated by anyone through their own life experience. Is it not true for example that any of us can have whatever separating desire that one can imagine. For example a desire for a new lover, or a new career post, the new possession, and so on. And we may have the ability to manifest that which we desire. And when we do there is in fact a sense of satisfaction of actualizing that which we have desired. But what soon replaces it ? Is it not the sense of dissatisfaction, the sense of something more ? It is preciously this sense of dissatisfaction, the sense of something more, that ‘echos´ the ultimate desire to return to the Origin Of All Things, the only desire that will bring to us that ultimate satisfaction. All of us have this universal experience.

So how can we know, independent of belief systems, that there in fact exists an Ultimate Source ? The human being knew long, long ago, before the manifestation of religions and complicated cosmologies, through inner contemplation, inner ‘looking´, that when the breath in the body, inhale and exhale, became very, very shallow, even stopped, that there would then appear within the interior of their consciousness a LIGHT. This occurred as a natural function of the breath shallowing or stopping. Naturally. Much later in human history this was to be called the famous ‘third eye´. And it is this very Light that symbolized and connected the individual consciousness reflected in the Soul to the Universal Consciousness that is the Origin Of All Things. The human being also learned long ago that by merging it´s own individual consciousness, or Soul, with that Light that it´s consciousness would then expand in such a way that the individual consciousness itself then became Universal and was then able to consciously experience that Ultimate Source Of All Things: the wave has returned to the ocean.

The point here, again, is that any human being can know and validate these natural laws through their own actual experience that does not require belief systems of any kind. The key to do this, again, is to progressively shallow and stop the breath all together. Any one can do this. If you doubt this, or wonder how, simply try the following natural method to do so. On your inhaling breath simply mentally affirm the number one. On your exhaling breath simply mentally affirm the number too. The ‘secret´ here is to concentrate as hard as you can simply on the numbers one and two. It is this act of concentration intensified by desire manifesting as will that progressively your breath will in fact begin to shallow and even stop. Remember that consciousness is energy and can not be destroyed. It can only change form. Thus, as some may think when the breath is stopped it does not mean that you have to die. Consciousness is NOT dependant on the human form. So when the breath is stopped the inner LIGHT which is intrinsic to consciousness will soon begin to appear. And as it does so simply move into it with by the conscious act of surrender. Surrendering to it will then allow for a merging of your own consciousness with that Universal Consciousness as symbolized in the Light. ANYONE CAN DO THIS AND THEN KNOW FOR THEMSELVES THIS NATURAL TRUTH.

It is this natural law of breath, when stopped or deeply shallowed, that allows for what all the great teachers of relatively recent centuries, when compared to how long the human being has actually been on the planet, has said including Jesus: “When thy eye is single one´s whole body is full of light.” Symbolically speaking the two physical eyes that we have correlate to the two motions of breath: inhale and exhale. It is the inhaling and exhaling of the breath that keeps one´s consciousness utterly involved and enmeshed in the duality, or polarity, of life itself. Likes and dislikes, happy and sad, love and hate, etc, etc correlate too and demonstrate this natural law. The numbers one and two correlate to the natural law of finitude and duality: cause and effect. Yet between one and two there exists and interval or zero. The interval or zero correlates to the Universal Consciousness or infinity. Thus when the breath stops or becomes very, very shallow the interval is then perceived. And what is perceived in the single eye, or what has been called the ‘third eye´ that naturally exists within the interior of consciousness and can be accessed, merged with, with our Soul. When this occurs the law of duality ceases to exist. The ultimate ‘satisfaction´ is then realized. The Soul correlates astrologically to Pluto.

From the point of view of natural laws it is interesting to note, historically speaking, that advanced mathematics like algebra, trigonometry, quantum physics, and so on could not have been realized unless there was an ‘idea´ or conception called zero. This occurred in the third century A.D. in India. It was the then Indian mathematicians that conceived of the number zero. And, of course, from the point of view of Indian cosmologies this occurred as a direct extension of their natural understanding of the origin of Creation: out of nothing, or zero, the manifested Creation occurred: the unmanifested/ manifested, or the causeless cause.
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Rad
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 13, 2009, 12:39 PM »

So as Jeffrey says the totality of Consciousness correlates with Neptune/ Pisces, and the 12th House. And within that totality of Consciousness lies it's total potential: of what can be realized. Virgo of course is the natural polarity of Pisces. As Adina pointed out that correlates, archetypically, to LACK where lack is in reference to the total potential that has yet to be realized. Immutable consciousness simply means energy, as Jeffrey pointed out, and that energy can not be destroyed: it can only change form. It is inherently full of potential to be realized which is the causative factor for the evolution of the Soul: consciousness. Until that full potential of consciousness is realized the Soul necessarily experiences LACK because LACK infers or reflects THE DESIRE FOR MORE than we currently have. The desire for more infers DISSATISFACTION which is the evolutionary determinant for that which will correlate to total SATISFACTION. Total satisfaction correlates with the desire to return to the SOURCE of consciousness and/or the Soul which is held as potential within the Soul and the consciousness within it. Thus, the sense of lack in ESSENTIAL FOR IT PROMOTES THE ONGOING EVOLUTION OF THE SOUL IN ORDER TO REALIZE IT'S TOTAL POTENTIAL WHICH, IN THE END, IS TO CONSCIOUSLY UNITE ITSELF WITH IT'S SOURCE: GOD/ESS.

 Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 16, 2009, 05:04 PM »

Thank you Rad!

so when we are looking at the wave ocean analogy, where does the identity come into play? ripples? boat?

i want to point out that the wave is always a part of the ocean. the only difference between third state spiritual and the others is the KNOWING of unity- the unity has been there all along. lack never truly exists, only the belief in it exists.

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Rad
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 17, 2009, 01:24 PM »

Thank you Rad!

so when we are looking at the wave ocean analogy, where does the identity come into play? ripples? boat?

i want to point out that the wave is always a part of the ocean. the only difference between third state spiritual and the others is the KNOWING of unity- the unity has been there all along. lack never truly exists, only the belief in it exists.



Hi Ari,
  In that analogy the sense of identity depends on the evolutionary condition of the Soul. For most that identity lies in the wave: the ego that feels / perceives/ thinks that it is separate from everything else. From the vantage point of the wave then everything else, the boats, ripples, whatever else correlates to the totality of it's life circumstances become simply props in it's personal play. For Souls who have evolved progressively into the Spiritual State the center of gravity within their consciousness progressively shifts from the ego to the Soul itself. As such their sense of identity is the Soul , the ocean, upon which the wave of it's ego has been created for whatever ongoing evolutionary purposes it has. A Soul in that condition thus experiences simultaneously it's distinct ego centric personal identity while at the same time it's timeless Soul identity.

 Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 21, 2009, 01:23 PM »

so cool! i really appreciate that answer-
and i really appreciate all of the responses on this thread
- this has been very illuminating.

regarding your last post rad-
does that explain the nature of the nodes/moon as something that doesn't actually exist (i.e. there is no such thing as a wave that can be distinguished from the rest of the ocean- yet there always SEEMS to be a reality of me and you, of separateness)- but rather as an evolving focus of identification for a soul as it's remembering its actual oneness with ocean?
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Rad
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 22, 2009, 10:18 AM »

so cool! i really appreciate that answer-
and i really appreciate all of the responses on this thread
- this has been very illuminating.

regarding your last post rad-
does that explain the nature of the nodes/moon as something that doesn't actually exist (i.e. there is no such thing as a wave that can be distinguished from the rest of the ocean- yet there always SEEMS to be a reality of me and you, of separateness)- but rather as an evolving focus of identification for a soul as it's remembering its actual oneness with ocean?

Hi Ari,

 What it all comes down to is how something is perceived including our own sense of  'identity'. From the point of view of consciousness the issue , in the end, is where the center of gravity is within in. Gravity has a natural correlation to Saturn, Capricorn, and the 10th house. Saturn, etc, also correlates to the structural nature of anything. Thus, the structural nature of consciousness. It also has a natural correlation to the boundary of anything. Thus, it correlates the natural boundary between our subjective awareness and the consciousness therein, and the progressive levels of the unconscious as in the individuated unconsciousness, Uranus, and the collective unconsciousness/ consciousness which is Neptune. Deep within the unconscious is the Soul. Consciousness, as such, emanates from the primary brain.

  Within the subjective consciousness in all of us is the egocentric structure that the Soul creates in each life to facilitate it's evolutionary intentions and progressions. The ego is the Moon, Cancer, and the 4th house, and is, of course, the natural polarity of  Capricorn, the 10th, and Saturn. For most individuals , given the natural evolutionary stages, the sense of identity is their own ego. Thus, the PERCEPTION of being separate from everything else. Thus, the WAVE on the oceans where the wave correlates to the subjective ego within the consciousness of the individual. So if the center of gravity within the individual is their ego then their sense of identity is then defined by the wave: their ego.
 
  Yet, as evolution proceeds, the center of gravity within an individuals consciousness shifts to the Soul itself: the OCEAN. The natural boundary of Saturn relative to the structural nature of consciousness dissolves in such a way that the PERCEPTION OF IDENTITY changes from the wave to the ocean. As a result the individual is then perceiving, is consciously aware of, it's timeless identity called their individual Soul and the ego centric structures it creates from life to life AT THE SAME TIME. In other words the Soul is aware of and perceives the continuation of it's ongoing lifetimes from life to life at the same time. The center of gravity is the Ocean, the Soul. As a result they do not perceive themselves as separate from anything, but , in fact, inter-related to everything.

 Rad
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