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Author Topic: Libra- Understanding the whole Archetype  (Read 5371 times)
ari moshe
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 19, 2010, 11:27 PM »

Quote
Ok so there’s some food for thought…can you relate??? Hahaha what do you think?

LOL!
... Um, Is it ok that I used an "exclamation mark"? I was just sharing how I felt about that quote- that I thought it was funny. But if I offended you please let me know.

Also let me know if you are comfortable with this emoticon  Shocked, if not I wont use it- I just want to make sure about that because I was going to use it, but then though that I should ask you first in case I use it and it makes you uncomfortable. I'm really not attached one way or another, so you can feel totally ok just being totally honest. No matter what I accept you.

...

Oh god, I play that role way TOO easily. Shocked gotta shake it out now...

Here is another aspect of distorted Libra. I'm quoting this from an up and coming e-book that is in its editing stages:

"I once had a friend who told me he secretly desires to be kidnapped. I wondered how the Libra archetype manifested in his chart. It ends up he has a full seventh house as well as a few inner planets in Libra. Why from a Libra point of view would any soul wish to be kidnapped? First of all, in such a situation, there is no need to make any decisions for one's self. With no decisions to make there is no possibility of being rejected or disapproved of by anyone. Second of all, it’s a distorted way of feeling needed...

... The famous indecisiveness of Libra is rooted in a deep need to make decisions in such a way that will please everyone. Confusion about any decision is unconsciously rooted in a need to please and be accepted by other people. When Libra realizes that any decision it makes is fine, that it is worthy of love and acceptance no matter what choices it makes, then it can develop the Aries polarity by way of learning to trust its own instinctual impulses."

Pleasingly,
Ari Moshe
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Linda
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 20, 2010, 02:40 AM »

Patricia, Deva, Wendy, Ari

This thread has given me so many great insights into my own and others' Libran behaviour patterns.

I spent the whole day developing more of my Aries side - and it was just great and so empowering!  Yes, I agree Ari, it doesn't matter what the 'decision' is, as long as one just makes one.  

I noticed the needy people who always seek me out - and how oh so accommodating I am.  The most amazing insight I've read here so far is this:

......the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment.

That statement is great incentive to CHANGE the behaviour...so that one can attract fulfillment in relationships, and not the same old unfulfilling ones.

All of this information and knowledge is pertinent to me at the moment since T-Pluto is conjuncting my natal Venus, and I really am starting to change my patterns.


TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION:

Go to the post that you wish to quote.  Click on "Quote" in the top right-hand corner.  A "Post Reply" will open, and the Quote will be inserted.  Scroll down and start typing AFTER the quote.  If an inserted Quote is too large, just edit it down.
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Linda
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 20, 2010, 02:45 AM »

Patricia,

I just discovered that there is a "Spell Check" function, found at the bottom of the Post Reply page.  After you have typed a post, just click on "Spell Check":  spelling mistakes will appear together with correct spelling. Click on "Change." 

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PatriciaW
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Posts: 101


« Reply #18 on: Sep 20, 2010, 06:32 AM »

Quote
OK so there's some food for thought…can you relate??? Hahaha what do you think?

LOL!
... Um, Is it ok that I used an "exclamation mark"? I was just sharing how I felt about that quote- that I thought it was funny. But if I offended you please let me know.

Also let me know if you are comfortable with this emoticon Shocked, if not I wont use it- I just want to make sure about that because I was going to use it, but then though that I should ask you first in case I use it and it makes you uncomfortable. I'm really not attached one way or another, so you can feel totally ok just being totally honest. No matter what I accept you.

...

Oh god, I play that role way TOO easily. Shocked gotta shake it out now...



Haha Ari...it takes a LOT more to offend me than an exclamation point or an emoticon! So exclaim away!!


Here is another aspect of distorted Libra. I'm quoting this from an up and coming e-book that is in its editing stages:

"I once had a friend who told me he secretly desires to be kidnapped. I wondered how the Libra archetype manifested in his chart. It ends up he has a full seventh house as well as a few inner planets in Libra. Why from a Libra point of view would any soul wish to be kidnapped? First of all, in such a situation, there is no need to make any decisions for ones self. With no decisions to make there is no possibility of being rejected or disapproved of by anyone. Second of all, it's a distorted way of feeling needed...

... The famous indecisiveness of Libra is rooted in a deep need to make decisions in such a way that will please everyone. Confusion about any decision is unconsciously rooted in a need to please and be accepted by other people. When Libra realizes that any decision it makes is fine, that it is worthy of love and acceptance no matter what choices it makes, then it can develop the Aries polarity by way of learning to trust its own instinctual impulses."

Pleasingly,
Ari Moshe


Thanks for sharing that Ari... Kidnapping does seems like a dark fantasy for Libra, I would wonder what other elements are in the chart that might also lend to that..Scorpio, Virgo, asteroid Persephone? You make a great point about The indecisiveness, which hasn't been mentioned yet and about how the Aries polarity is meant to balance that out. I also think of Aries as a boundary where Libra maybe boundrey-less..which again points to Neptune as the higher octave of Venus. Libra needs to learn the 'boundary of self' from Aries,which as you worded...the instinctual self and in fact that it is ok to even have a self..which usually feels so foreign. Especially when it is a complex that has been brought in from other lives.

On that theme, finding anger (Aries) within the self is very difficult for them as it breaks all the rules of 'being nice'. But the reality is when the instinctual self's boundaries have been violated in any way, anger is the natural first defense and it is that denial of self that also sits at the bottom of such complexes.

A client comes to mind who regressed to a past life as a young Asian woman ( yes, talk about a culture where pleasing, niceness and conformity is highly valued). Her life was fine as she followed her fathers orders as she was expected to do, and one day when she was about 14 he called her into a room, pointed to (what she described as a fat, stinky fishmerchant or about 50 years old) and said ' This is your new husband. In that moment her whole life changed and of course her instinct was disgust and rage. Yet her conditioning and her head told her she needed to follow her fathers orders. So she shut down all her instinct, married him, had children, eventually committing suicide in that life by jumping out a window. ( Violence against oneself - Aries turned inwards)) All her natural libido and life force - Aries) had become so shut down and deadend, but as we know repressed and suppressed energy does not go away..it becomes distorted and eventually comes out in that form. Her healing from that life came from her ability to let all that suppressed rage out. That is an example of  Sn Libra moving to Aries NN.
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PatriciaW
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Posts: 101


« Reply #19 on: Sep 20, 2010, 06:55 AM »

Patricia, Deva, Wendy, Ari

This thread has given me so many great insights into my own and others' Libran behaviour patterns.

I spent the whole day developing more of my Aries side - and it was just great and so empowering!  Yes, I agree Ari, it doesn't matter what the 'decision' is, as long as one just makes one.  

I noticed the needy people who always seek me out - and how oh so accommodating I am.  The most amazing insight I've read here so far is this:

......the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment.

That statement is great incentive to CHANGE the behaviour...so that one can attract fulfillment in relationships, and not the same old unfulfilling ones.

All of this information and knowledge is pertinent to me at the moment since T-Pluto is conjuncting my natal Venus, and I really am starting to change my patterns.


TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION:

Go to the post that you wish to quote.  Click on "Quote" in the top right-hand corner.  A "Post Reply" will open, and the Quote will be inserted.  Scroll down and start typing AFTER the quote.  If an inserted Quote is too large, just edit it down.


thanks for the quote function help... I still can't seem to get small parts of the text to show up and comment on it in different shaded boxes like I see on other posts..anyone know how to do that? 

Well as you mention... learning to say NO is also a big lesson for the Libra type..and does represent a boundry of the self ( the Aries polarity). Again when the Libra type gives themselves permission and musters up enough gumption to first discover what it is they truly need and desire, that sets up the chain reaction of recovery from too much adaptability. Another client comes to mind who sat on her chair very proper and smiley, while she recounted an event of being gang raped in a hotel hotel room. She ended this recounting of her story with ' But thats ok, I'm over it now" and said the most famous libra line ' I'm just fine".  it had happened over 10 years ago and when she was asked how her relationship history was she said ' Oh I haven't had one, I'm just perfectly fine without that in my life".

I can tell you the 'denial defense' of this archetype is one of the hardest to work with, you really have to develope the ability to 'pull' things out and not push..because pushing will trigger the defense even more since it often mimicks the same energy of the original violation. You need to be firm and soft at the same time. Empathetic yet directive.  When working with this type of denial what is interesting (as in with all such defenses) if you are aware of yourself, you will feel all the unexpressed emotion as your own. This is commonly called Transference in counseling...which is appropriate to discuss in this archetype as projection and mirroring are all a part of Libra and transference itself. So a part of you will want to jump off the chair, or reach thru the phone and slap some sense into them! That is exactly the energy you need to direct the client to get in touch with in themselves. Getting them out of thier 'heads' and the 'I'm fine' script contained there and into thier emotions and/or natural body reactions is the way to wake up the slumbering empowerd Aries they need.
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #20 on: Sep 20, 2010, 09:22 AM »

I just noticed that I typed this into your quote Ari, thinking it would stand out from your quote, but it didn;t ..aaaargh!!! anyway..here it is again...

Haha Ari...it takes a LOT more to offend me than an exclamation point or an emoticon! So exclaim away!!
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ari moshe
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Posts: 1231


« Reply #21 on: Sep 20, 2010, 02:36 PM »

Hi Patricia,

Quote
Thanks for sharing that Ari... Kidnapping does seems like a dark fantasy for Libra, I would wonder what other elements are in the chart that might also lend to that..Scorpio, Virgo, asteroid Persephone?

Oh that's interesting. I checked it out- he does in fact have Persephone rx conj his Moon in the 12th. For him, this seems to generally correlate with not having had a stable home/mother that he can depend on...

Ari Moshe
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Linda
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Posts: 915



« Reply #22 on: Sep 20, 2010, 03:58 PM »

Hi Patricia,

You can make your sentence within Ari's Quote stand out.  Here's how.  Go to that post and click on MODIFY found in the top right hand corner.  Scroll down to your sentence and highlight it.  Then either click on the B icon for Bold (first icon on the menu), or choose a Color from the palette by clicking on the down arrow where it says "Change Color".  Then click SAVE at the bottom.
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PatriciaW
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Posts: 101


« Reply #23 on: Sep 22, 2010, 08:09 AM »


Ok so a brief recap of what has been discussed thus far..

Libra natural archetype:

Venus's dual rulership of Libra and Taurus and how they support eachother
Is about socialization
Learning about oneself thru relationship (comparison and contrasting)
Equal relating
Not inherently balanced, but seeking balance
Persona or Mask
Listening to the reality of others
Equality in giving and receiving
Does not make others dependant on them
Clarity of self-identity and needs creates healthy boundaries
Sharing, giving and inclusion
One on one relating
Strives for harmony
Beauty and grace
Mediator


Individual expression when 'evolving' towards the natural archetype (complications and distortions)

Co-Dependency and it's various dynamics and how it's patterns create continual unfulfilling and disappointing relationships.

Over adaptability - Pleasing and 'being nice'
Need to be needed
Not 'seeing' others for who they are , but rather what one wants them to be
Conditional relationships (one needs to change, self or others to be loved)
Denial as a defense mechanism
Dosn't honor, validate or is out of touch with ones own actual needs, causing a distorted perception of others needs
Living in a society that has an epidemic of 'co-dependency'
Is challenged with the need to transform relating on all levels
Fear of making decisions (indecisive) so relinquishes power to others

and

Various ways the polarity point of Aries assists evolution in this archetype.

Empowers the instinctual self so one can...
Can create a healthy boundary, ability to say no.
Allows one to focus on self - will not compromise identity or needs
Anger as a signal (primal defense) from the instinctual self when boundaries have been over-run (violated)


Anything I missed...anyone wants to add?
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Linda
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 23, 2010, 01:24 AM »

So a part of you will want to jump off the chair, or reach thru the phone and slap some sense into them! That is exactly the energy you need to direct the client to get in touch with in themselves. Getting them out of their 'heads' and the 'I'm fine' script contained there and into their emotions and/or natural body reactions is the way to wake up the slumbering empowered Aries they need.

Hi Patricia,

Great list - thank you!  

Do you think that a state of 'depression' could be triggered when the Libran sees the truth of themselves?  Not clinical depression, but a very deep sadness.  Is this what you mean about getting in touch with the emotions?

Imagine having been 'nice' all ones life, having given away ones power to others, and having let others take advantage of you since you were directionless.  I can see how Neptune can play into this since 'not wanting anything out of life' could be a safety or escapist mechanism.  

Anger could arise and be directed to the 'selfishness' of others who took advantage of the Libran.  The Libran could feel used, betrayed, discarded, and then slip back into the old behaviours, so the vicious cycle starts all over again.

I thought masochism correlated to Virgo, but it seems the distorted Libran archetype can suffer from this as well.

Since Venus is in Scorpio at the moment, I'll bet people are really getting in touch with these very issues.  

Your quote:  
Quote
I can tell you the 'denial defense' of this archetype is one of the hardest to work with....

Overly nice people can seem unreal, and selfish people are overbearing.  Is there a middle ground?  *Balance*  Could the Cancer or Capricorn energies be useful in the predicament that Libra finds itself in?

How does one knock sense into oneself?  Grin  Cry

« Last Edit: Sep 23, 2010, 03:04 AM by Linda » Logged
Wendy
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 23, 2010, 01:58 AM »

I've been thinking about this man I have been working with de-cluttering his home and feng shui (internal and external).  He has a lot of Pisces (Sun, Mercury, NN) with Saturn Neptune conjunction in Libra.  So the Libra in his chart is very pertinent.  He has carried the Mr. Nice Guy syndrome for a very long time.  I would like to post his chart as an example, and to discuss possible scenarios what Patricia just recently described if that is okay with the group?

Wendy
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 23, 2010, 08:15 AM »






Do you think that a state of 'depression' could be triggered when the Libran sees the truth of themselves?  Not clinical depression, but a very deep sadness.  Is this what you mean about getting in touch with the emotions?

Imagine having been 'nice' all ones life, having given away ones power to others, and having let others take advantage of you since you were directionless.  I can see how Neptune can play into this since 'not wanting anything out of life' could be a safety or escapist mechanism. 

Anger could arise and be directed to the 'selfishness' of others who took advantage of the Libran.  The Libran could feel used, betrayed, discarded, and then slip back into the old behaviours, so the vicious cycle starts all over again.


Hi Linda..

In my personal work i find that any deep change has a 'layer of sadness' around it. So when you do get in touch with something and then change it, just as you said, there can come all those realizations of how long you let that pattern run your life..and grieving that may be necessary. It is in my view it is healthy and a part of the process. It dosn't necessarily mean that someone is going to slip back into the pattern...although everyone is diffrent. The other point you mention about anger...usually if someone gets to that layer..it will help them initiate change. Remember Libra is a cardinal sign.



I thought masochism correlated to Virgo, but it seems the distorted Libran archetype can suffer from this as well.

Yeah...self cancellation for sure is a kind of massochism. But in Virgo the underpinning is guilt, in Libra it is often feeling unworthy ( relating back to the inner side of Venus as ruler of Taurus)
essentially pointing one back to the need to work on the relationship with themselves as the basis for healthy relating.

Since Venus is in Scorpio at the moment, I'll bet people are really getting in touch with these very issues. 


Yes I can relate.. I have Venus in Scorpio in the 8th...conj Neptune  Roll Eyes Don;t forget that Transiting Saturn is in Libra also.


Overly nice people can seem unreal, and selfish people are overbearing.  Is there a middle ground?  *Balance*  Could the Cancer or Capricorn energies be useful in the predicament that Libra finds itself in?

How does one knock sense into oneself?  Grin  Cry



[/quote]
Ii would say that the empowerd forms of Cancer (the emotional self and deep needs and being intouch with that) and capricorn (another form of boundry and structure and ability to 'mature and parent  oneself') certainly lend energy to the balancing that needs to take place, but they are naturally square Libra, which to me indicates that those qualities also need to be conciously worked on to integrate them. Polarity points and reaching for them and thier qualities contain the roadmap for working oneself out of a particular archetypes quandries.
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 23, 2010, 08:20 AM »

I've been thinking about this man I have been working with de-cluttering his home and feng shui (internal and external).  He has a lot of Pisces (Sun, Mercury, NN) with Saturn Neptune conjunction in Libra.  So the Libra in his chart is very pertinent.  He has carried the Mr. Nice Guy syndrome for a very long time.  I would like to post his chart as an example, and to discuss possible scenarios what Patricia just recently described if that is okay with the group?

Wendy
[/color]

Hi Wendy that would be fine. I just talked with a friend last night, who has been embroiled in a 2 year co-dependant relationship who finally busted out of it!!! yeah for her!! She has a Neptune in Libra T-square to just about everything in her chart as most of her planets and nodes lie on the Cancer/Capricorn axis.
All this Cardinal action in the transists is certainly waking some people up.
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Linda
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 23, 2010, 02:52 PM »


Yeah...self cancellation for sure is a kind of masochism. But in Virgo the underpinning is guilt, in Libra it is often feeling unworthy (relating back to the inner side of Venus as ruler of Taurus) essentially pointing one back to the need to work on the relationship with themselves as the basis for healthy relating.

Thank you for this clarification Patricia...and for this amazing thread.

Wendy, I look forward to examining a chart with prominent Libra issues.


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Wendy
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 23, 2010, 05:37 PM »

Okay thanks Patricia.  I need to take some time to write out the details about the chart.  Most likely I will post it sometime tomorrow.

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