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Author Topic: Libra- Understanding the whole Archetype  (Read 5179 times)
PatriciaW
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 25, 2010, 12:07 PM »

Hi Everyone.. just letting you know I'll be away Sunday-Thurs and will not be checking the MB until I'm back... bright Blessings.. Patricia
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mountainheather
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 27, 2010, 12:37 PM »

Hi,
I'm wondering how projection fits in this archetype? Is projection an action? A  Psychological  state? Does it fit in the libra archetype or is it a composite of a few of them?
These are my questions. Thank you Heather.
 
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mountainheather
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 27, 2010, 08:02 PM »

Hi all,
I've just re-read the other posts and yes indeed projection has been mentioned a few times! So my questions have been answered already, thanks, Heather.
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_will
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 28, 2010, 08:30 PM »

Hey all, great discussion here on Libra.  Since communication is such a key part of relationships, I'd like to throw out the question of Mercury in Libra/7th...I get the sense that, as if a distorted Libra weren't difficult enough, Mercury coming through Libra could correlate with the majority of one's thought structures being oriented toward endless inner analysis and outward communication patterns being geared toward keeping options open and/or not upsetting others - so, someone who is noticeably indecisive and aloof.  I'm also getting the sense that there could be a fear of commitment and difficulty in forming healthy, stable relationships with others.  Which raises another question - when we say an archetype is distorted, is it possible that that the associated behavior/manifestation would be bleeding into other archetypes (i.e., fear of commitment being Scorpio)?  Similarly, on the other side, distorted Libra resulting in co-dependence really reminds me much of the Virgo notion of inferiority.  Any validity to that?

Thanks,

Will
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 30, 2010, 05:22 PM »

Hi all.. I'm back :-)
To adress Will and Mountainhealer... Projection is also strongly correlated to Aquarius..in the concept that thought creates reality ( of course limited by many factors), If you think of the dual rulership of Aquarius (Saturn and Uranus) it becomes clear. Such broad portraits of human posychological processes i think are hard to stick in one archetype...as projecting ones unfulfilled emtional needs is a part of Cancer...for example. So as it realtes to Libra...the natural ruler of the descandant of the zodiac wheel... is where the PERSONA..or MASK is created. It is opposite to the instinctual self (Aries and the ascendant)and is conditioned by sociatal, familial and realtionship expectations. it is the PROJECTED idea of oneself. People often identify themselves with thier persona, yes we often need one to fuction in certain roles.
Our variuos personas are created with more consciousness so they can be said to be constructed by us. 

In my observations people are often less aware of the qualities of the sign on the ascendant in themselves ( yet others see it so clearly in them). I feel it takes up to the first Saturn return to CONSCIOUSLY begin to appropriate the qualities of the ascendant into ones psyche.

Mercury coming thru Libra as Will mentioned can have that indecisive quality, for all the reasons he mentioned. Libra and mercury both having a dual nature.

Which raises another question - when we say an archetype is distorted, is it possible that that the associated behavior/manifestation would be bleeding into other archetypes (i.e., fear of commitment being Scorpio)?  Similarly, on the other side, distorted Libra resulting in co-dependence really reminds me much of the Virgo notion of inferiority.  Any validity to that?

Thanks,

Will
[/color]


Not quite sure what your asking here...would it be possible to restate it? Or does anyone else get the gist of it?

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Linda
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 30, 2010, 05:29 PM »

Welcome back Patricia.

I do understand what Will was saying, but I'm sure he will clarify his question to you.

I think he's saying that some of the archetypes can be very "similar" in their distorted expression. For example, Libran self-cancellation is quite similar to Virgoan masochism, and Scorpionic self-destruction.  That there is a similar "theme" running through the distorted expressions. 

And also, when one distorted archetype gets activated, will then lead to, bleed into or trigger another archetype (like a domino effect).
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_will
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 30, 2010, 06:50 PM »

Hi all.. I'm back :-)
To adress Will and Mountainhealer... Projection is also strongly correlated to Aquarius..in the concept that thought creates reality ( of course limited by many factors), If you think of the dual rulership of Aquarius (Saturn and Uranus) it becomes clear. Such broad portraits of human posychological processes i think are hard to stick in one archetype...as projecting ones unfulfilled emtional needs is a part of Cancer...for example. So as it realtes to Libra...the natural ruler of the descandant of the zodiac wheel... is where the PERSONA..or MASK is created. It is opposite to the instinctual self (Aries and the ascendant)and is conditioned by sociatal, familial and realtionship expectations. it is the PROJECTED idea of oneself. People often identify themselves with thier persona, yes we often need one to fuction in certain roles.
Our variuos personas are created with more consciousness so they can be said to be constructed by us. 

In my observations people are often less aware of the qualities of the sign on the ascendant in themselves ( yet others see it so clearly in them). I feel it takes up to the first Saturn return to CONSCIOUSLY begin to appropriate the qualities of the ascendant into ones psyche.

Mercury coming thru Libra as Will mentioned can have that indecisive quality, for all the reasons he mentioned. Libra and mercury both having a dual nature.

Which raises another question - when we say an archetype is distorted, is it possible that that the associated behavior/manifestation would be bleeding into other archetypes (i.e., fear of commitment being Scorpio)?  Similarly, on the other side, distorted Libra resulting in co-dependence really reminds me much of the Virgo notion of inferiority.  Any validity to that?

Thanks,

Will
[/color]


Not quite sure what your asking here...would it be possible to restate it? Or does anyone else get the gist of it?



Patricia - I will try to rephrase the question.  So, if you look at an unhealthy manifestation of Libra where there's this indecisiveness - a fear of making decisions - I see that as an inability to commit, or put differently a fear of commitment.  And fear of commitment might be stated as a fear of entrapment (unable to commit to any single viewpoint).  Fear of entrapment, as JWG indicated, would seem to be a Scorpio thing (Aries natural inconjunct Scorpio).  Now I do get the sense there might be a difference between Libra and Scorpio flavors of the fear of entrapment - the former being related more to the fear of committing to a single viewpoint in order to keep things open/harmonized/balanced and the latter being a fear of commitment in relationships due to having its trust violated.  In the Libra archetype of indecisiveness, there is also the idea that indecisiveness is the same as giving away power to others, powerlessness, which is also Scorpio.  I don't mean to muddy the waters or start making up my own untested theories/correlations, but can't help but notice the overlap of this common themes between the two signs.

Similarly, if you look back toward Virgo, there is this idea of masochism where the person is always doing for others while ignoring his/her own needs.  This sounds much like the definition of co-dependence in relationships (Libra/7th) as defined on the link from an earlier post (http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm) where "the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment".  There again you see this common thread between codependence (distorted Libra) and Virgo (unfulfillment - that Virgo sense of the inner void/lack and subsequent drive for perfection).

I wouldn't expect Libra or any other sign/house/archetype to fit nicely into its own little, perfectly defined box - this is the totality of consciousness we're talking about after all Smiley.  But I was wondering if the distorted form of Libra would bring out more of the qualities of neighboring signs.  If so, then from a practical counseling perspective, would that prove useful in identifying and formulating the right words of guidance for a client?  I mean, wouldn't the advice be at least slightly different for someone who is feeling and acting masochistically as reflected in Virgo/Pisces versus what you might tell someone who has become codependent/masochistic as reflected by a distorted Libra/7th house influence? 

Hope this hasn't caused more confusion or the need for a new thread (happy to bump this to its own topic if need be).

Thanks again,

Will
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_will
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 30, 2010, 06:52 PM »

Welcome back Patricia.

I do understand what Will was saying, but I'm sure he will clarify his question to you.

I think he's saying that some of the archetypes can be very "similar" in their distorted expression. For example, Libran self-cancellation is quite similar to Virgoan masochism, and Scorpionic self-destruction.  That there is a similar "theme" running through the distorted expressions. 

And also, when one distorted archetype gets activated, will then lead to, bleed into or trigger another archetype (like a domino effect).

Haha Linda - you beat me to it...I elaborated in my most recent post but I think you nailed it in fewer words! 

Will
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 30, 2010, 09:02 PM »

Hi Will... well i think you answerd your own question. In EA we always try to get to the bottom line...so lets just say for example... Massochism is a psychological response/ distorted defense..whatever you want to call it... how it was formed, and the reasons why, would be the flavor. So yes..Massochism in Virgo's bottom line is guilt, maybe in Libra = feeling un-worthy (or self-cancellation as over adaptability) also can be called massochistic behavior. Scorpio isolating itself beacuse of fear of vulnerability and exposure , yet deeply yearning for connection  can loosly be called massochistic. But yes lets not muddy the water... and lets understand that the way JWG described the massochistic complex is in general belonging to guilt and the Virgo archetype. 

And absolutly YES... in huge emphatic way, the words you use, the counseling you offer is different based on the bottom line, of how that complex formed for THAT individual. Archetypes paint broad brushstrokes IN GENERAL, in practice with the individual psyche it is unique and personal.

If you were counselling someone who's main complex is guilt (ie Virgo) and tried to tell them to stop comparing themselves to others (more Libran)..even though that may be a behavior they have...that may not be the root of the complex for that archetype and for them. Getting to the bottom line...the guilt, will help unravel the complex. That is the crux of good counseling..listening to what is really being said ;-) (appropriate to mention in our Libra discussion)!!




[/quote]

Patricia - I will try to rephrase the question.  So, if you look at an unhealthy manifestation of Libra where there's this indecisiveness - a fear of making decisions - I see that as an inability to commit, or put differently a fear of commitment.  And fear of commitment might be stated as a fear of entrapment (unable to commit to any single viewpoint).  Fear of entrapment, as JWG indicated, would seem to be a Scorpio thing (Aries natural inconjunct Scorpio).  Now I do get the sense there might be a difference between Libra and Scorpio flavors of the fear of entrapment - the former being related more to the fear of committing to a single viewpoint in order to keep things open/harmonized/balanced and the latter being a fear of commitment in relationships due to having its trust violated.  In the Libra archetype of indecisiveness, there is also the idea that indecisiveness is the same as giving away power to others, powerlessness, which is also Scorpio.  I don't mean to muddy the waters or start making up my own untested theories/correlations, but can't help but notice the overlap of this common themes between the two signs.

I can see how in a sort of stream-of-concsiousness-way you can get from fear of making descisions equating to fear of commitment is sort of like fear of entrapment...but to me they are not the same thing and have diffrent underlying causes. IE..from the past life experience...a fear of making decisions can stem from - having made a mistake, which resulted in trauma, having taken in so many viewpoints one dosn't know what to think anymore (these two also correlate to Gemini)
or in Libra, trying to please all sides. This is vastly diffrent than say fear of entrapment which can be the literal past life experince.. for example held as a sexual slave or similar scenario and having lost oneself in that kind of traumatic expereince.   


Similarly, if you look back toward Virgo, there is this idea of masochism where the person is always doing for others while ignoring his/her own needs.  This sounds much like the definition of co-dependence in relationships (Libra/7th) as defined on the link from an earlier post (http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm) where "the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment".  There again you see this common thread between codependence (distorted Libra) and Virgo (unfulfillment - that Virgo sense of the inner void/lack and subsequent drive for perfection).


Again in your example there is a dfiffrent causative factor in Virgo it is service on overdrive...stemming from either guilt, or a need to make something perfect. While in Libra it is stemming more for a weak sense of needing to be needed..and not knowing what ones own needs are.

Gee i hope that helps?.....

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_will
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 01, 2010, 05:57 AM »

Gee i hope that helps?.....

Patricia - yes, thank you! Your response totally solidified/verified what I was thinking!  Apologies if I derailed from the core Libra discussion here...
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Linda
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 03, 2010, 07:23 PM »

Again in your example there is a different causative factor in Virgo it is service on overdrive...stemming from either guilt, or a need to make something perfect. While in Libra it is stemming more for a weak sense of needing to be needed..and not knowing what one's own needs are.


Hi Patricia,

This thread is so wonderful - thank you.

I'm hoping we can go a little deeper into this archetype by way of looking at an example below.  I was thinking about Libra's need to be needed, how it tries to please others, how it is overly nice, listens intently to others, puts others up on a pedestal and plays the role of alter ego.....because it has no idea what its own needs are, and because its own individuality has not been fully developed.

If I could use an example:  Let's say a girl with a typical unskillful or distorted Libran archetypal expression finds herself befriending a man, to whom she listens intently, is overly nice....and basically plays the role of 'friend.'  She has no idea how to deal with this man's attentions, so she reverts to the familiar and known:  by being nice at all costs.  She sees this man from time to time, and so the so-called friendship goes on for a number of years.  The girl is basically unaware how she has built a friendship on sand (which is finally starting to sink), on 'social niceties,' and how in truth the friendship is very superficial and quite unreal.  

Years later, it turns out that the girl, now a women, through transformational events, finally realizes how she has built a "false" friendship with the man, and how in fact the man is not "nice" at all;  he's aggressive, self-centred, sadistic, and in fact a woman-hater (!).  All those years (perhaps out of unconscious fear and intimidation) she had pretended how important he was, and had given all of her attention and praise to his ideas, and displayed interest in him and his life.  

She suddenly realizes that underneath it all, in reality, she has no real feelings for this man whatsoever, not even in friendship.  In fact she REALLY dislikes him!  Yet, he persists in the friendship, almost by force since it was SHE who created the illusion (higher octave Neptune).  She finds herself in an extremely awkward position:  she cannot be false any longer, she cannot play the game, and resentment and panic start to build.  (I'm interested in hearing your views on this feeling of "panic.")

The man all the while had played the game for his own evolutionary reasons.  He picks up on the truth and starts to get intimidating and abusive, by dropping subtle humiliating comments her way.  She starts to fear and loathe him, yet in his presence maintains the "nice exterior" so as not to inflame him - for what else can she do?  It seems a sinister cat-and-mouse game has developed.  Change and action are needed.  But how?

My question is:  how would you advise a client such as this on how to de-tangle herself from a friendship such as this.  After many years of playing the part of "friend" it turns out she does not want this man's attentions ever again.  The cycle has culminated, and the karmic connection has completed its course.  Obviously assertiveness is needed;  but since aggression could easily arise in the man, what would be the best way to handle the situation?    

Would it be necessary for the girl to develop her own "courage" (Aries polarity), muddle through, and learn her own lessons?  The counselor or astrologer can easily see how the situation arose, as well as the "answers," but since this is such a tricky and potentially dangerous situation, what would be your specific advice?

Thanks.

« Last Edit: Oct 03, 2010, 09:49 PM by Linda » Logged
PatriciaW
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« Reply #41 on: Oct 04, 2010, 02:50 PM »

Hi Linda,

from what you wrote it is hard to gauge the situation as to how much 'danger' she is in, as opposed to how much is her fear (which can feel darn real!!). I think that would be the essential point to help her weed thru. It seems to me from what you wrote she most likely has a karmic connection with this guy, or he represents for her a karmic pattern, in which she went trance like into a relationship in the past that ended up ...well lets say..no so good!! Hence the fear.

Good for her that she waking up to the dynamics and i would suggest she do further work on exactly what her hook was/is. WHY is her pattern to be overly nice? How does this pattern realte to her current life expereince and conditioning? What is her unconcious proijected need or expectation? What did she get out of the relationship? What qualities did he represent for her that she needs to own?  That kind of self awareness, will help to insure it isn't a continual pattern.

Yes it does seem that she needs to , as you said , get her courage and break the rules of nice-ness and extract herself from the realtionship

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Linda
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« Reply #42 on: Oct 05, 2010, 01:20 AM »

Patricia,

Thanks for everything you wrote.  I found it very interesting that one can go into a relationship in a trance-like way due to a karmic pattern.  The questions you provided will help to build self-awareness and ensure the pattern is not repeated.

We have a New Moon in Libra on 7th October, and the Venus/Scorpio Rx period will bring personal metamorphosis around relationship dynamics, some of which could be examining betrayal, abandonment and violations of trust issues.

I just noticed that according to the Gemini Rising chart, USA will be experiencing its Saturn Return at 14.47 deg Libra in the 5th.
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 05, 2010, 07:44 AM »


Hi Linda,

Yes I described some of the dynamics of those karmic relationships in my book, equating Libran type as 'Fantasy Bonds" ( more wistful, dreamy, longing, full of unrealistic expectations and promises) and Scorpio (compulsive, obsessive) , as 'Fixated bonds'. Interestingly John Bradshaw wrote about what he calls "Mystified Bonds" in (I think it was) "Healing the Shame that Binds Us" as a foundation for co-dependant relationship. For him he equates that with dysfunction familial conditioning, for me it stretches beyond that into the many lives of the soul. And yes for many who meet those they have unfinished business with, the relationship can have a trance like quality to it. There is something deep in the soul that is desiring completion, and that unconscious desire floods and takes over the consciousness. It's like being possessed by ones own unconscious complexes. But that is how these complexes become conscious... and then can be worked on.

In EA we consider Libra to be the precursor to deep committed relationship that happens in Scorpio. To me Libra is more like flirting with the relationship (the worm on the hook)  where Scorpio is where one bites and gets hooked :-).So In Libra (with Venus and Neptune's influence) a relationship can look and feel promising yet can turn out to have a very different reality.
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Linda
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« Reply #44 on: Oct 05, 2010, 03:49 PM »

Patricia,

Extract from your website:  "Trauma experienced in the past will often cause a part or fragment of your total energy to remain 'frozen' in the past. This is what Shamans and various indigenous traditions have described as soul loss or soul fragmentation. Working with this 'frozen' part by re-experiencing it, serves to begin to thaw that energy. Once this process begins this part is worked with further to move it into healing....this is in essence, soul retrieval work."

I'm sure many of us, and certainly myself included, have experienced our energy remaining "frozen" in the past.  When you say that we need to work with this frozen part by re-experiencing it, could mean different things, for example, a Venus/Pluto transit will directly target the past life issues by bringing back key people from the past, while a regression therapy session will allow one to directly re-experience these blocked energies within a controlled environment.  

I have spoken to people who are fully aware of the frozen PATTERN as well as the need for HEALING.  It seems that when informing the client of all the Libran dynamics, patterns, and reasons for change and healing, that they will completely agree and understand......yet they continue to repeat the pattern (!).  The pull of the unconscious need, longing and expectation for the Libran "relationship dream," is still operative, and still SO entrenched.  I suppose the astrologer would have to keep drawing attention to the lessons....and this could very well take a long time....so that the patterns would SLOWLY begin to improve and change over time.

Is it possible that the need for healing oneself has also been pushed down into the unconscious?  Perhaps it would take stronger medicine:  like a Pluto transit, or a cataclysmic event to bring about change?

Is wanting a fulfilling relationship a healthy and normal desire?  That the person would be willing to "work" through it (Saturn in Libra), to do what it takes to fulfill that desire?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: Oct 05, 2010, 04:10 PM by Linda » Logged
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