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Author Topic: Request for ideas/tips/ways of discerning the Soul  (Read 1838 times)
Elen
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« on: Oct 11, 2010, 05:13 AM »

This request evolved for me out of the "How Much Can We Actually Learn..." thread (started by Dhyana).  The more I go along, the more I see how deeply my own conditioning is.  I am seeing now how I have even trained myself to not look at the Soul, but at the personality, as a part of hiding.  Thus my hope that others will share their thoughts/ideas on this.

 Re: How much can we actually offer with no birth time?
« Reply #26 on: Oct 10, 2010, 01:06 PM » Quote Modify Remove 

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These are Stacie's words from the "Us and Them" post.  I thought they were a good follow up to Steve's post above.

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Re: "Us and Them"
« Reply #18 on: Sep 13, 2010, 03:13 PM » Quote 

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i'm reminded that the true power in this work..beacon..is a function of speaking to the soul.  there's a visceral difference in receiving messages directed to one's ego vs. receiving messages directed to one's soul..visceral difference.  The power within this is so simple, yet undeniably potent and healing. 

There is another side of the beacon analogy that is equally perfect..a different kind of beacon..the kind of beacon that transmits signals of distress.  In listening to others SOULS, the precise nature of the signal can be detected and homed in on..allowing the exact words that are needed to be given.

thank you

Stacie
 
   
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Any suggestions in how to hone this skill? Just a matter of doing it over and over..?  Perhaps this distinction is something to keep in mind with the archetypes threads...  Which makes me wonder - is part of this skill a matter of really understanding the difference between the distorted vs. natural expressions of the archetypes?

Thanks,
Ellen
 
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Dhyana
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 11, 2010, 02:17 PM »

I feel like the more radically honest we are with ourselves and our own soul condition,and all the ancient hidden agendas to sperate from the source of all life as if we know better, the more we will be able to intuit the "others" . I really sense that it all literally starts with looking at ourselves, with the most piercing honesty we can, at any given time.- - YET ALWAYS IN THE SPIRIT OF COMPASSION for ourselves, and our fellow universe mates~

That is my two cents at this present moment, on how I sense to better hone the skill, at least for me,at the moment. Cheesy

I love your questions Ellen.

Lovingly Respecting All Of LIfe,
Dhyana
« Last Edit: Oct 11, 2010, 02:24 PM by Dhyana » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 11, 2010, 04:39 PM »

Hi Dhyana,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.  I think you're right, that it is really a matter of "know thyself".  The rest takes care of itself.  So simple, eh?

Peace,
Ellen
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Dhyana
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 11, 2010, 04:51 PM »

You know why "I love your questions, Ellen"? --Because they are the same questions I  have --they are my questions.  And the gift I get is that you articulate them for me! ;(because my Mercury function isnt the greatest LOL)  Wink

Then I am able to see my own questions out in front of me, in words.  And then because they "seem" to be anothers questions, I am able to get some space from my own inner doubts --to stop doubting myself for one second, and answer from that inner Knowing-- that Heart-Knowledge, that I have so often doubted inside myself.

I love you for that.

And I love the Sacred service we are for one another on here.

In This One Great Love,
Dhyana
« Last Edit: Oct 11, 2010, 04:53 PM by Dhyana » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 11, 2010, 06:06 PM »

Hi Ellen

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  They are important ones.

This request evolved for me out of the "How Much Can We Actually Learn..." thread (started by Dhyana).  The more I go along, the more I see how deeply my own conditioning is.  I am seeing now how I have even trained myself to not look at the Soul, but at the personality, as a part of hiding.  Thus my hope that others will share their thoughts/ideas on this.

Any suggestions in how to hone this skill? Just a matter of doing it over and over..?  Perhaps this distinction is something to keep in mind with the archetypes threads...  Which makes me wonder - is part of this skill a matter of really understanding the difference between the distorted vs. natural expressions of the archetypes?

My thoughts are that it goes beyond understanding the difference between the distorted vs. natural expressions of the archetypes.  One has to EXPERIENCE the undistorted natural expressions of the archetypes.  This is not so easy to do in the external since there are not many examples of undistorted expressions in our world today.  This is why Rad frequently posts that the natural expressions are giving, sharing, and inclusion, and the distortions are self-interest, superiority, and hierarchy. 

The entire history of patriarchal times is the ongoing onslaught against everything expressing from the natural archetypes of giving, sharing, and inclusion.  Thus in our time, government giving ten cents to the poor is labeled socialism (which is presented as Evil), while government giving hundreds of billions to prop up banks who had been engaged in outright fraud is seen as necessary.  It still happens even though "no one really wanted to do it".  It is the mature, grownup thing to do.  Versus giving a dollar to the poor, which supposedly enables their dependency on the government teat.

My point of saying this is, it is a complete inversion of natural reality.  Yet it is the predominant view today.  So anyone who represents natural values - feeling these priorities are backwards, wanting to help the poor and disadvantaged, etc., is demonized and minimized.  And the effects of being demonized and minimized become quite personal.  This is the root of the conditionings that have developed of guilt and shame and a sense of inadequacy and not good enough that form core conditioned complexes. 

A huge part of the healing for Virgo types (and that includes, through polarity,  Pisces types) is learning to accept self exactly as you are.  That whatever you are doing, have done, it is good enough, it is the best you could have done in that moment, given who you are and what you did (and didn't yet) know.  That it is all for the learning.  The desire to self-improve here is very strong.  There is no need to fear it will ever go away - that is not possible.  The impulse to self-improve has to be changed from a club one uses to beat self up, to an impulse to self-accept and self-nurture, to develop a sense of kindness about one's self and efforts, because your intentions are sincere. Its important to learn that the value is in the effort, NOT the results.  What matters most is purity of intention, not results.

These distortions are among attitudes that stand in the way of seeing life from the Soul's perspective.  From the Soul's perspective there can be a compassion towards self as the bigger picture is seen: how one wound up in these distorted states in the first place.  Memories of times prior to the present distortions, when people lived much more in cooperation and sharing.  Seeing the larger picture, how I wound up here, it becomes easier to feel how I begin to heal the damage and revert back to my natural state.  Remember, the natural state is NATURAL, meaning, when you stop feeding distortion, the healing process just begins on its own.  In very real ways what we need is to get out of the way and let the natural processes proceed.

An issue is that when one starts reverting to natural state, they can increasingly be seen as "different". This triggers all the individuating issues we discuss on this board - rejection, judgment, ostracism, etc.   Thus its important to grasp, when those experiences occur they have a lot more to do with the people projecting those responses than with the person on whom they are projected. This is where the self-acceptance and self-kindness are important.  Because the conditioned response, too often, is to go to the "what have I done wrong this time, I'm never good enough" place.  And those are the places that keep us identifying who I am as the distorted patterns, the wounded personality, rather than the Soul.

Ellen, you are seeing with more clarity than ever the extent to which you identify who you are (self-image - Moon) as the personality and not the Soul.  This indicates a deepening going on in you. It's important to remain clear that probably 98% of humans emotionally identify who they are as personality, even if they intellectually know more than that.  (How many people have your met in your life who truly see who they are as their Soul?)  So again, its important to not go to a beat self up place when realizing your self is far more conditioned than you've seen before.  The experience you are having indicates that your self-awareness is growing, not that you have been short sighted in the past.

This process of deconditioning identification of who I am, from personality to Soul, is a very lengthy one.  That work starts at the beginning of 1st stage spiritual, and goes on into the 3rd stage spiritual.  It is a progressive waking to actual reality from the sleep-walking hypnotic states that we have up until these moments accepted as reality.  All the painful experiences that occur within those spiritual stages are the blows and shocks the Soul needs to throw off its attachments to the imagined reality.  There really is not much you need to do to assist that process.  Get out of the way and let it happen.  Open to it.  Learn through testing and trial and error that this growth process is on your side.  As we open to it, it takes on a life of its own within us.  Over time the end result of releasing identification with personality occurs on its own, step by step. 

We need to experience its in our own best interest to cooperate with the process, that it is seeking to take us where we yearn to go.  We still have separating desires, and at times we still need to act them out, even after we already know in the end they will not bring the satisfaction we believe they will.  Yet we must exhaust the desires step by step.  In other words, the best way to speed that process up is to reduce resistance to it, to cooperate with it.  Beating self up because you realize one more time you did not cooperate with it is not cooperating with it!  Self-denial and self-rejection have to be released.  You just keep doing the best you can, over and over, as imperfect as it may be.  Little by little you will see new results entering your life.  Understanding this mentally can be an important stage in the process.  But it has to be experienced emotionally before it truly becomes real to you, living it, step by step.
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 11, 2010, 06:14 PM »

You know why "I love your questions, Ellen"? --Because they are the same questions I  have --they are my questions.  And the gift I get is that you articulate them for me! ;(because my Mercury function isnt the greatest LOL)  Wink

Then I am able to see my own questions out in front of me, in words.  And then because they "seem" to be anothers questions, I am able to get some space from my own inner doubts --to stop doubting myself for one second, and answer from that inner Knowing-- that Heart-Knowledge, that I have so often doubted inside myself.

I love you for that.

And I love the Sacred service we are for one another on here.

In This One Great Love,
Dhyana



I'm glad my questions help, Dhyana.  It makes me feel quite happy knowing that my "presence" makes a difference.  And I am so glad for your presence and the presence of all my EA friends on this MB.  There is quite a synergy here. It is really a beautiful place to come - so nourishing. It's a joy to be a part of it.  I've grown in ways that I'm certain I would not have were it not for EA and you and all the wonderful people here.  Thank you EA Council for having created this space and for making it such an incredible place and learning experience.

Much love,

Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 11, 2010, 06:34 PM »

Steve,

Thank you so much for all the times you have stepped in and answered my questions with so much thoughtfulness and always exactly the answer I was needing.  I will read what you have written above numerous times over the next few days.  I know what you wrote is right on because I found myself crying through most of it. The quote below was especially penetrating for me.  Thank you.  I am learning, slowly, kindness towards myself.  And also, slowly, how to let myself receive kindnesses from others.


A huge part of the healing for Virgo types (and that includes, through polarity,  Pisces types) is learning to accept self exactly as you are.  That whatever you are doing, have done, it is good enough, it is the best you could have done in that moment, given who you are and what you did (and didn't yet) know.  That it is all for the learning.  The desire to self-improve here is very strong.  There is no need to fear it will ever go away - that is not possible.  The impulse to self-improve has to be changed from a club one uses to beat self up, to an impulse to self-accept and self-nurture, to develop a sense of kindness about one's self and efforts, because your intentions are sincere. Its important to learn that the value is in the effort, NOT the results.  What matters most is purity of intention, not results.
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mountainheather
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 13, 2010, 10:23 PM »

Hi all,
I noticed how beautifully this interchange between Steve and Ellen and Dhyana exemplified what Stacie was saying about the way of listening and speaking from and to the soul. I am greatful for having witnessed this.
What has come to mind is the conversation (somewhere on the mb) where we discussed the soul having created the personality as the vehicle for the soul to use on the earth walk to ultimately get us back home.  So in fact the personality has the potential to assist us in human form to find God.  I am guessing that if our centre of gravity is in the personality exclusively then it is all we have as a reference point to filter what is around us and then we may think that this is all there is, i.e. my own emotional security needs and projections from this view.( I am just working this through here) So as we start to realize that we are more than a personality with all its projections and needs, and we progressively shift our center of gravity to our soul we become ever more aware of...what? our past traumas and misunderstandings and limitations (including past lives), our intrinsic beauty and simplicity, and all of these things in others, but from the view of our eternal soul rather than our ego, so the quality of the joy and pain is different, visceral, like Stacie said. 
Can we discuss the view from the soul as it works through the ego a bit more here.  Can anyone give an example of say, how Yogananda or JWG  had their ego function as a vehicle back to God.  I hope this is an appropriiate question...I am very keen on understanding how this works, what it feels like.
THank you, Heather



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Elen
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 14, 2010, 01:57 PM »

Hi Heather,

Thanks so much for your post.  I hope that others will jump in as I am very interested in both the observations you've made and the questions you are asking. I've added some responses below.

Peace,
Ellen

Hi all,
I noticed how beautifully this interchange between Steve and Ellen and Dhyana exemplified what Stacie was saying about the way of listening and speaking from and to the soul. I am greatful for having witnessed this.

Thank you so much for pointing this out.  I hadn't really thought of our exchanges in this way, yet they are a great example of being with Soul.

What has come to mind is the conversation (somewhere on the mb) where we discussed the soul having created the personality as the vehicle for the soul to use on the earth walk to ultimately get us back home.  So in fact the personality has the potential to assist us in human form to find God. 

I have been thinking a lot about this very thought - and reality - lately.  It just up and occurred to me that there isn't anything WRONG with my (or anyone else's) personality.  The real question is, what is it designed for - what are it's strengths/likes/talents/etc.  Isn't all of that a clue for us in terms of our life work...?  Seems foolish to dismiss it or disregard it or try to make it go away, etc.  The trick is understanding that it's not US, it's just a tool or vehicle or...?  (Not sure I've got it right.)

 I am guessing that if our centre of gravity is in the personality exclusively then it is all we have as a reference point to filter what is around us and then we may think that this is all there is, i.e. my own emotional security needs and projections from this view.( I am just working this through here)

This makes sense to me.  I'm curious what others have to say.

So as we start to realize that we are more than a personality with all its projections and needs, and we progressively shift our center of gravity to our soul we become ever more aware of...what? our past traumas and misunderstandings and limitations (including past lives), our intrinsic beauty and simplicity, and all of these things in others, but from the view of our eternal soul rather than our ego, so the quality of the joy and pain is different, visceral, like Stacie said. 

Again, this seems right to me but would like to hear what others have to say.  If what has been happening to me recently is any indication, a whole lot of conditioning starts to fall off, like shedding old skin.  And this is very visceral, not intellectual at all.  In the last couple of weeks I literally had the experience of the internalized belief that I'm bad just falling off me the way a snake sheds its skin.  It was definitely a very visceral thing.  And this has allowed me to have more compassion with myself (truly, not just intellectually, though it is still tough going in some regards.... Sad

Can we discuss the view from the soul as it works through the ego a bit more here.  Can anyone give an example of say, how Yogananda or JWG  had their ego function as a vehicle back to God.  I hope this is an appropriiate question...I am very keen on understanding how this works, what it feels like.

I hope there are others who can answer this. 
THank you, Heather




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mountainheather
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 14, 2010, 10:09 PM »

Hi Ellen,
Thanks for your reply,  it actually occurred to me that since we used your chart earlier, and your ability to articulate your experience was helpful, that it may be appropriate to look at your ongoing experiences as a study in how the process of the shift to spiritual orientation occurs.  I don't know if this is appropriate or not, but as a student it would help me to sort out what is  archetypal and what is unique to each individual with a specific example.  Also I do find the practice charts with Rad over my head  Smiley  and if we could just look at the moon and n and s nodes as the security vehicle and shifting from that I feel it would help with just getting this part.  Granted, I am having my own personal experience of this shift and do have my own point of reference, I just would like the opportunity to explore it together.

 In learning from the light within, Heather 
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Linda
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 14, 2010, 11:13 PM »

Hi Heather,

Although we did look at Ellen's chart quite comprehensively in the "Ellen's EA State Practice thread," here is what Rad's response was at the time:

"First, we do not do personal charts on this message board......"

So from that moment on we stopped looking at the chart.  Your request, Heather, would need to be directed to the moderators.  


Hi Ellen,

Your quote:  It just up and occurred to me that there isn't anything WRONG with my (or anyone else's) personality. The real question is, what is it designed for - what are it's strengths/likes/talents/etc.  Isn't all of that a clue for us in terms of our life work...?  Seems foolish to dismiss it or disregard it or try to make it go away, etc.  The trick is understanding that it's not US, it's just a tool or vehicle or...?

Your sentence above has been on my mind for a while because I do in fact see plenty wrong with most people's personalities which are based on the "patriarchal model."  This would exclude most 1st stage Spiritual people who do have the awareness and insight into the truth.  Although some behaviour patterns seem quite "normal" in the consensus, if we look deep enough, we can spot the distortions, limitations and falseness.  Every astrological archetype has its distortions, which we are learning about.  The more I'm learning, the more I'm seeing the truth.  

I think the "personality" is designed, firstly, for purification.  Anyone pre-1st stage Spiritual would identify with their personality, while a 1st stage Spiritual person would be aware of their Soul AND of their personality at the same time.    
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Elen
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 15, 2010, 05:38 AM »

 


Hi Ellen,

Your quote:  It just up and occurred to me that there isn't anything WRONG with my (or anyone else's) personality. The real question is, what is it designed for - what are it's strengths/likes/talents/etc.  Isn't all of that a clue for us in terms of our life work...?  Seems foolish to dismiss it or disregard it or try to make it go away, etc.  The trick is understanding that it's not US, it's just a tool or vehicle or...?

Your sentence above has been on my mind for a while because I do in fact see plenty wrong with most people's personalities which are based on the "patriarchal model."  This would exclude most 1st stage Spiritual people who do have the awareness and insight into the truth.  Although some behaviour patterns seem quite "normal" in the consensus, if we look deep enough, we can spot the distortions, limitations and falseness.  Every astrological archetype has its distortions, which we are learning about.  The more I'm learning, the more I'm seeing the truth.  

I think the "personality" is designed, firstly, for purification.  Anyone pre-1st stage Spiritual would identify with their personality, while a 1st stage Spiritual person would be aware of their Soul AND of their personality at the same time.    

Hi Linda,

Thanks for your response.  I think we are seeing things differently, so I just want to see if I can identify how and then try to articulate the difference as I'm seeing it.  If I am understanding you correctly (please correct me if I am misunderstanding  you), you are equating the personality with behavior patterns. Since we live in such distorted times, the behavior patterns of most people are quite distorted.  Thus, for you, personality is distorted and in need of purification.  I agree that behavior patterns tend to be quite distorted, but I am not sure that I agree that behavior patterns equate to personality.  The insight I had showed me something different -gave me insight that personality is simply a manifestation - a part of the expression of Soul.  Perhaps equivalent to the clothing one wears.  This is a new understanding for me, I'm not sure I'm able to articulate it well.  Jung talked about different personality traits.  The Meyers Brigg identifies them as introverted/extroverted, sensing/feeling, thinking/judging, and there's one more pair (intuitive vs. something else).  My understanding is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with any of these traits.  However, given the times we are in, for most people, they will all most likely be distorted in some way or another.  Perhaps it is better to say that our reactions to them will be distored, thus our way of relating to them will be distorted.  So, in my culture, extroversion is valued (and seems to be tied with dominance), so that is valued.  Because I am relating to the dominance-oriented culture, my way of relating to my extroversion is distorted.  (I'm not extroverted.  It's just an example.).  The introvert will similarly relate differently to his/her introversion according to the distorted cultural values, perhaps devaluing them as timid, shy, not good enough, etc.  So for me the question is not, what is wrong with personality, but what can learn about ourselves - about our Soul's journey, by understanding the undistorted value of our personalities.  Does this make senes?  If I am an introvert, for example, what are the strengths of that and how, in undistorted form, can I be of benefit given that personality-reality for me.  Same with extroversion.  Does this makes sense?   I had written some more but it got lost somehow when I cut and pasted here. I remember that I was interested in understanding the difference between ego, personality and behaviour patterns.  I was thinknig that ego was our sense of self, personality was the the way of proceeding and behavour patterns were culturally entrained ways of condcuting ourselves that, given the distorted times, tend to distort our relationship with our egos and personalities, thus distorting their expressions.  Food for thought/discussion.   

Peace,
Ellen
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2010, 05:50 AM by Ellen » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 15, 2010, 10:15 AM »

Hi Heather et-al,

 Have just caught up reading through this thread so would like to respond to some of the things that stood out for me. One of the things I read had to do with those on this message board doing one another's charts like what was happening in Hellen's thread. And that I had mentioned as some point within that that we don't use this message board for personal charts which then had the affect of stopping that thread. Have been pondering this. So right now am thinking that any of you want to start a specific thread that deals with one another's charts, from an EA point of view, and keep it within that thread, then that would seem a perfectly fine thing to do. In the end it is about learning EA. Just like the ongoing thread about the signs that Linda started. So if you all want to start a thread for that purpose the please do.

 Relative to this discussion about the ego/ personality and the Soul: just remember that the ego/ personality does NOT CREATE ITSELF, NO DIFFERENT THAN A WAVE ON THE OCEAN DOES NOT CREATE ITSELF. The ego/ personality in any given life, for any of us, is created by the Soul as a refection of the Soul's ongoing evolutionary intentions and requirements. The difference, again, is in the center of gravity within the consciousness of any of us. Is that center of gravity in the Soul, or is it in the ego/ personality ?

then Heather:

"Can we discuss the view from the soul as it works through the ego a bit more here.  Can anyone give an example of say, how Yogananda or JWG  had their ego function as a vehicle back to God.  I hope this is an appropriiate question...I am very keen on understanding how this works, what it feels like."

******************************

 Imagine that you are underneath the water, in the ocean, and from there you perceive various waves upon the surface of that ocean that are of course manifesting from that ocean. And within the ocean, your awareness of being there, and perceiving those waves, is your Soul that is perceiving the various ego's / personalities of many, many lifetimes: the waves. So one the one hand the center of your consciousness, your awareness, is your Soul, and, on the other, your are aware from that center of the different lifetimes that your Soul has created for it's on purposes: the evolutionary intentions of your Soul, and KNOWING the reasons why for each of those lifetimes. And from within your Soul, ocean, you are of course aware of the current wave, the current ego/  personality, of the life that is being lived now. This awareness creates a conscious knowing of all those lives that have lead to the present life simultaneously: all at once. One the one hand this creates a real sense of stability within the Soul because of this, and, on the other, it can create a sense of instability in the sense of 'remembering' which wave, the current life, to SURFACE THROUGH.

 The experience of this center of gravity in the Soul in very, very analogous to standing on a beach as sundown where the Sun is equally below the horizon, and above it. So the person is aware of their Soul because that is the center of gravity of their consciousness, and all the lives that have lead to this one, the current moment, current life, and at the same time being aware of the moment of this life. This is an ongoing double awareness all the time for such a Soul. Thus, how it understands and perceives reality, the reality of itself, and the reality of everything else, is totally different than those who are not in this state of consciousness. Such a Soul is aware of the past OF EVERYTHING THAT HAD LEAD TO THE CURRENT MOMENT, AT ANY MOMENT. And that includes the past of other Souls. Imagine carrying a consciousness like that ALL THE TIME. Thus, how everything is understood, perceived, and interpreted with the corresponding behavior and actions of such a Soul is totally different than for those Souls who have not evolved to this state of consciousness.

God Bless, Rad

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mountainheather
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 15, 2010, 10:25 AM »

Hi Linda,
Thank you for reminding me of the parameters, I understand. The ego as a vehicle is perhaps a battered old pick up in this era. There is still something in this that I need to understand.  What was Jesus' ego like? that's what I wonder.  

Heather
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bluesky
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 15, 2010, 12:36 PM »

technically speaking, is the ego/personality indicated by the moon in the chart, and soul by pluto?
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