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Author Topic: Scorpio archetype  (Read 11208 times)
Deva
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 21, 2010, 08:34 PM »

Hi, sky walker. Thanks again for posting your insights about the Scorpio archetype! The Water triad of the zodiac (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces) is also correlates with the need to merge (Scorpio) the individual ego (cancer) with the Source (Pisces), and the resulting metamorphosis (Scorpio) of the egocentric structure  that occurs through such Divine Union (Pisces). The within this is that a relationship with the Divine must become the bottom line that constitutes ultimate meaning in life. Divine union/merging becomes a way for us to naturally transmute our pre-exiting limitations, and will create an automatic metamorphosis of our egocentric structure (Cancer) as we merge with a higher source of power.
The reasons you brought up for suicide are great examples, and I feel is perfectly appropriate to discuss this in the Scorpio thread. A psychological factor that is linked with suicide that I feel would be good to discuss is when we experience an absolute loss of meaning in life (where our reality is permeated with a sense of meaninglessness and worthlessness) and there seems to be no way out of this trap.
     I will share a story of a client who was suicidal based on loss of meaning in life. He is extremely spiritually gifted in the sense that he is clairvoyant  and audiovoyant, and has much wisdom to impart to others. Yet, he does not trust his spiritual capacities, and was resisting the need to establish and actualize these capacities in his life. He tried many ways to “numb out” or “tune out” this sensitivity. Yet, he did become suicidal in his late 20’s because he  could longer face the reality of working a mundane 9-5 job, and the day to day life style that entails. Inwardly, he knows his capacity must be actualized in order to help others, and that service to others/the Divine alone can provide the meaning in his life he is seeking. (He has a Scorpio ascendant with Uranus conjunct). Another story I remember is from the Ea dvd course. My father told a story of a man who was very wealthy, married and had children, and was the president of a bank. Yet, one day he locked himself in his room with a gun and threatened suicide because he could not go on with the duties and responsibilities of his life (his life had lost all the meaning it once had). These are all Scorpio/Pluto/8th house dynamics. The need, again, is to merge or link our life (Scorpio) with a higher purpose/the Source (Pisces).
In my view, a few good counseling tips is try to motivate the other person to want to live in any way that you can, and provide options that would allow the current life circumstances to change into better ones that are connected to the individual’s higher life purpose/plan, and are truly meaningful for the person. Another suggestion is to point out the great pain they would cause others who truly love them. 
God Bless
Deva     
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Steve
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 21, 2010, 09:45 PM »

re: suicide

Also, if the client has spiritual beliefs, such as karma, etc. pointing out to them that killing themselves accomplishes absolutely nothing.  They still have exactly the same issues to resolve, in their next life, with an added "penalty" for having killed themselves. They will be coming back, in most cases soon, in exactly the same place they are leaving off.  So if they think it is hard now, by killing themselves they are only increasing the burden they will be facing later on.

It is important to remind them:
1) Life can not put them in a completely insurmountable situation, even if the situation they are in is going to lead to death - illness, capture in wartime, whatever.  The circumstances are not a mistake, and they must be dealt with as best as they can.
2) "As best as they can" may not be very good.  Quality is not the point.  Making the effort is the point.  When we learn something new we do not start off gracefully.  We start off, often clumsily.  Gracefulness is learned over time.  At the point of potential suicide, the point is just to survive.  It is not a time to need to prosper.  That should be brought home.  No matter what has happened, what the loss has been, however painful, they have the capacity to start all over if they have to.  Millions of humans have been in those places that felt unbearable and yet somehow survived.  And they can too.
3)  the way out of the current situation is Step by Step, one small step at a time.  Even when in total overwhelm  Its important to remember that the extreme conditions being experienced are TEMPORARY.  No matter how intense, sooner or later they will pass and life will become more tolerable.

4) Psychology with the person can be very helpful.  I was in a suicide prevention training once.  We were given simulated situations to work with.  A counselor was acting out this role -  her husband had been having an affair with his secretary.  She found out about it.  She was now standing on a bridge, getting ready to jump into the river. 
   I asked her how she felt about her husband.  She said she was in complete rage.  I said to her "Can't you see, if you kill yourself, he wins!  You are gone and he has the secretary all to himself.  Is that what you want to have happen?".  She was down off the bridge in about 30 seconds. 
   My point was to reframe the situation, to help her see the conditions she was interpreting as hopeless from a different perspective, one that cuts through the hopelessness.  It is especially good to reframe anger into a motivating force.  A suicidal person has lost all sense of meaning and thus of hope.  By showing her how by killing herself she was giving the person who had betrayed her exactly what he would like the most, it gave her a new sense of purpose - she was not going to give him that satisfaction, even if it meant she had to stay alive to accomplish that.   Of course, from a rational place that is a petty sense of meaning.  But in an extreme crisis state it is enough to motivate someone to stick around for a while.   And if she does, eventually the extremes of despondency will pass and she will go through the death-rebirth process and begin to find new meaning, at a deeper level. 

 Lecturing them on morality may not work - sometimes the "you're going to get karma and make it even harder" approach just doesn't work with a person.  In that case it has to get down to bottom line survival - they need to see a reason to regain even a small amount of hope or meaning.  Often a small shift is enough to flip the inner survival mechanism a small amount - even 2 or 3 percent - enough so the will to survive is again stronger than the urge to die.  The intense feelings ARE temporary, so getting them through the crisis, through the difficult night until the light of the next morning for example, is enough to help them persevere.   

Often times the movement to truly thinking about carrying out the suicide - motive, means, plan - rather than just thinking or talking about it - is a desperate cry for help.  They don't really really want to kill themselves.  They want someone to notice they are there, in pain, crying out.  No one seems to care.  They need some attention, and it is really bad.  Most people are a lot stronger than they think they are. We all do have that survival mechanism.  What we want to do is find the way to help them fire the part of their brain that is the survival instinct, in any way we can.  Shift it from the feelings of hopelessness and despair.
Steve
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ari moshe
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 22, 2010, 12:48 PM »

Eric, your words were beautiful.

Some distorted aspects of the Scorpio archetype:

This is such an interesting one to look at because this archetype addresses the very nature of resistance to change. All the ways in which a soul has become fixated on power that comes from "out there" needs to be surfaced and released at some point. A soul will naturally attract to itself various opportunities in the form of cataclysmic and non cataclysmic events, that have the intent to release its attachment.

It's the very desires of the soul that are fixated on ephemeral securities that makes Scorpio such a "dark" archetype in the first place.

The way the world is now, power is used and abused right and left. It has become a cultural norm (Capricorn) to seek power through manipulation, greed, revenge etc. So it is very status quo to not deal with addictions and compulsions in a way that leads to a transmutation of prior psychological blocks. A distorted expression of the Scorpio archetype is a fixation on one's perceived powerlessness and an an unconscious (Scorpio) attracting and creating relationships with other souls based on that perceived powerlessness.
 
Sexual disease seems to be a result of some such relationships. I guess this can also be a Pisces thing (lack of discrimination/ misunderstanding sexuality), but there is also a clear Scorpio implication here (sharing of karma). All this started when Neptune was moving through Scorpio and intensified when Pluto was in Scorpio.
Ari Moshe




 
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Wendy
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 24, 2010, 03:48 PM »

There is a need for Scorpio to develop more trust, to 'let go,' to surrender, and to be more open about its feelings.

Hi All,

I've been working a great deal and just getting back to the board and wanted to jump in.  

Linda I would like to talk more about the quote above...more trust, more open about its feelings.  Can you elaborate more?  

Also I'm wondering if it would be okay to post a chart of a client I am working with?  She came to see me years ago for bodywork/healing and sometimes we delved into astrology.  I spoke with her today and she wants to go deeper.  She has a grand cross with Pluto Scorpio-2, SN Scorpio-10 in the 4th, opposing Taurus Moon and Taurus NN, square Venus in Leo and Jupiter in Aquarius.

Maybe her chart would be useful for this thread, even though her sun archetype is not Scorpio, and especially while transiting Venus in Scorpio is activating her Pluto in Scorpio (which I believe she has no conscious recollection of).

It's great to go deeper in our study as we move deeper into autumn!

Blessings everyone,
Wendy

Hi All,

I'm re-posting my previous post for feed back.  Also since I posted the above I spoke with a woman who I have known over the years.  Her son committed suicide three weeks ago.  He was twenty I believe.  Anyway she asked me to look at his chart.  He has SN Scorpio and Pluto in Scorpio.  If agreed I can post his chart (rather than the one mentioned above) and we can discuss it.

Thanks,
Wendy
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Linda
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 24, 2010, 03:57 PM »

{Wendy, I just noticed that we've posted around the same time.}


There is a need for Scorpio to develop more trust, to 'let go,' to surrender, and to be more open about its feelings.

Linda I would like to talk more about the quote above...more trust, more open about its feelings.  Can you elaborate more?


Hi Wendy,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.  The above statement was not intended to be a summary of the "shoulds" for Scorpio, but rather that issues of power that are acted out by the Scorpio person in their relationships can lead to resentment, mistrust, remaining frozen in their emotions, and the unwillingness to open up to others.  Here is a further explanation and expansion as to my meaning:

[Pluto I, p.335]  "Pluto through the 8th House.......New emotional responses, ideas, directional shifts in life, value associations and so forth will be put in motion with faith.  The knowledge of why or where these changes will lead may not be known prior to the initiation of the change itself.  Commonly, this knowledge will occur after the changes are implemented.  Faith is required."  

[Pluto I, p.157]  "Pluto in the 8th House or Scorpio......The prior-life memory of having the rug pulled out from under their feet is responsible for most of these people coming into this life with a conditioned defensiveness, and a conditioned suspicion as to the motive and intentions of those who desire to be involved with them in some way. This dynamic creates emotional retention or withholding for fear of having the rug pulled once again.  It can take an abnormally long time for the individual to really trust another or a situation in which they are involved as a result."

[Pluto II, p.167-168]  "Venus in Scorpio.........For evolution to proceed, the Venus in Scorpio person must embrace its polarity:  Taurus.  The essence of this lesson is to realize that every projected need they create is connected to some deep inner wound.  The projection of the need is thus motivated by the desire for another to somehow repair this wound.  Conversely, the intention in the Taurus polarity is to learn how to repair these wounds from within themselves.  This will lead to a condition of self-empowerment, self-reliance, and self-sustainment that creates a deep and genuine state of inner security.  Once this occurs, these individuals will relate to others in general, and their intimate partners specifically, in an entirely new way.  Now they will encourage the independent actualization of their partner, and help motivate them to do this.  Their partner will encourage them in exactly the same way.  By changing their inner vibration in this way, they will attract differently. Thus, the dynamics of manipulation, control, betrayal, loss, and abandonment will disappear from their lives.

"In addition, this lesson demands that they learn how to relate the nature of their emotional reality as it is without concealing it, altering it through misrepresentation, or representing it inn oblique rather than direct ways...........And, of course, they can now attract another who reflects this very same psychological, emotional, and vibrational shift."

Of course, the Taurus polarity "process" or switch-over is necessary for change and evolution to take place.


Wendy said:  
Quote
Also I'm wondering if it would be okay to post a chart of a client I am working with?

If Deva agrees, I would be interested in examining a chart with a prominent Scorpio archetype.  

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Linda
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 24, 2010, 04:16 PM »

......... I am open for input about what would be helpful to others to continue this thread. Examples of those with a predominate Scorpio in their chart? Questions from others about those who have Scorpio in their chart, etc? Please let me know what you all feel would be helpful at this point.
God Bless
Deva


Hi Wendy,

Deva had invited input for the continuation of this thread, and along with you, I'll wait to hear what Deva has to say as to your suggestion.

Of course, another Scorpio theme is death.  It is sad to hear of the recent suicide of the boy, but perhaps we can assist you in examining this chart.

A reading could help console the mother or perhaps allow her to understand "why?"  It must be a difficult task to read a chart such as this. 
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Wendy
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 24, 2010, 08:02 PM »

Thanks Linda and yes gaining insight into this young man's journey will help his mother immensely in dealing with his loss.

« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2010, 08:57 PM by Wendy » Logged
Deva
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 25, 2010, 07:32 AM »

Hi Wendy, sorry for the delayed feedback as well. Go ahead and post the chart, and we can discuss it as a group.
Thanks!
Deva
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Wendy
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 25, 2010, 04:08 PM »

Below is the chart of "Gu", Guru Mehers Khalsa, son of Rose Khalsa, who took his life three weeks ago.

I'm not sure of the fathers name or the older brother's.  When Gu was born his parents were steeped in a Seek community.  The parents have been divorced for ten years at least and the mother moved out of that community and became a Shaman and Polarity Therapist.  The mother for sure is living spiritual state, at the 2nd or 3rd level.  Not sure about the father, I know there was some level of sex addiction but not sure of the details.      

Gu was twenty-two.  His mother told me he has been depressed for a long time. She shared with me that he would make comments, "I don't deserve to be alive."  He was on an anti-depressant and had been for years and wanted to come off of it and try some natural approaches.  He did come off the medication and was also using drugs, LSD and something else.  It sounds like he had some astral realm entities attached to him with lots of negative energy.  

In the last week of his life he had a noose hanging in the back yard and his mother questioned him about it.  She preformed a soul retrieval on him, but did not think to take him to the psychiatrist, though she did call.  The doctor who was out of town.  

The mother also mentioned Gu had just gone to Minnesota to be with his father's side of the family and when he came back was severely depressed.  She also mentioned there was something unhealed about that side of the family that Gu was linked to.  The men in his family.

Gu took his life with a bullet to his head while in his father's house.

Here is the chart below.  

Pluto in Scorpio 12 degrees in the 6th house opposing Venus
North Node 22 Pisces conjunct Sun
Neptune in 8th conjunct Mars and Uranus and Saturn
South Node 22 Virgo, square Chiron, Uranus
Mercury 0 in Pisces conjunct Pisces Moon 5

it looks like Mercury Moon in Pisces must have been confusing for him.  I am hoping to get more details from his mother soon to help determine state of consciousness.  Sounds like Individuated.  

The biggest transit which must have triggered the event was Pluto having crossed over natal Uranus and conjunct natal Saturn.

Also interesting to note, both parents and older brother have Moon in Capricorn.  Mother's is a 0 degrees.

CORRECT CHART IS POSTED BELOW
« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2010, 07:29 PM by Wendy » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 25, 2010, 04:44 PM »

I am posting a version of Wendy's chart using Porphyry houses.  They shift the nodal axis from 5/11 to 4/10.  The chart also includes the planetary nodes.

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Wendy
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 25, 2010, 07:28 PM »

Thanks Steve, I always forget that!
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Wendy
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 25, 2010, 08:57 PM »

I also see that Uranus and Jupiter have been conjunct his Sun and NN, squaring Chiron, and squared his natal Uranus earlier in the summer.

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Dhyana
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 25, 2010, 09:21 PM »

Hi Wendy,

You wrote "Also interesting to note, both parents and older brother have Moon in Capricorn.  Mother's is a 0 degrees."

I was just wondering if you might say more about that --like why are the Moons in Capricorn of his parents and brother, interesting to note in this case?

Thanks
Dhyana
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ari moshe
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 25, 2010, 11:55 PM »

Hi Dhyana, all

It's significant as far as understanding the meaning of all that Capricorn in his chart.
This soul had a Saturn Uranus conjunction, which squared the 4th/10th nodes, in Capricorn. The south node of Saturn, which is the ruler for all of that Capricorn in the 8th, is at 28 degrees Capricorn conjunct natal Lucifer in the 9th.

The Lucifer, in combination with the 8th house energies operating via the Capricorn archetype, and the square to the 10th 4th nodes speaks so strongly about this soul's difficulty with life in the first place. How strong this temptation must have been for him. Bless this soul. May he may find peace and overcome the temptation to give up in his next life.

The north node of all the sn planets in Capricorn are all in Cancer in the second house- correlating to the evolutionary intent to develop emotional self reliance. For lifetimes, this soul has repressed his emotional reality based on family and social obligations/duties or judgments to a very strong degree.

Wendy, this is a really good example, especially for when it comes to understanding the inherent connection Lucifer seems to have to the Scorpio archetype.

JWG often gave the example of a male in our current society with the Moon in Pisces. How easy is it to be so sensitive in a society that judges, and is innately unsupported of such a thing? Place that Moon in the 10th house, conjunct the ruler of the sn which is in the 4th house, and the ruler of that Pisces being Neptune in Capricorn in the 8th- we see an ego structure that is grossly aware of what is appropriate and not appropriate, what is safe and not safe- has learned to repress and tuck away its emotional needs on the basis of having been greatly abandoned in the past. Now sure what his ea state is, but this also could easily also be linked to gender role stuff. Sounds like he is somewhere in the individuated state or maybe beginning of spiritual?

Pluto in Scorpio in the 6th house, opposing Venus in Taurus in the 12th, gibbous phase, again points to the evolutionary lesson in forgiveness and to value life.

As Wendy pointed out, this suicide coincided during the transit of Pluto through the beginning of his 8th house, moving through those Capricorn planets- as well as the transiting lunar nodes. The last few years for him have been very emotionally catalyzing, this would have been an immense time period in his life no matter what.

This teaches me, again, that it takes immense desire and determination surrender to the evolutionary process. Resistance to change (Scorpio) intensifies the darkness, until a soul finally accepts that there's no way out but through.
With Love,
Ari Moshe
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Wendy
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 26, 2010, 06:56 AM »

Thanks Ari Moshe,

It seems Uranus Saturn is his skipped step too, especially Uranus, and Chiron squared the north node.  SN ruler of Uranus (16 Sag) was also squared by the nodes and NN ruler of Uranus right on his ascendant (11 Gem).  Not sure how to interpret that?  I understand the Saturn Capricorn piece, but not sure about Uranus.  JWG spoke about Uranus and trauma, but isn't it also about change, evolution, genius, raw wildness?  

Based on Pluto Polarity in 12th house, 10th full of Pisces, SN of Mercury right on his natal Mercury and Ceres, looks like massive guilt about the past, either information he gave which negatively impacted the community he was part of, maybe during cataclysmic earth changes (Uranus-Capricorn) and time of patriarchal takeover.  And this time his soul wanted to heal that, purge the guilt and use the power of deep healing and transformation he had for good, another opportunity to establish, create surety, groundedness, stability, healing, new laws based on natural law?

[Pluto I, p.157]  "Pluto in the 8th House or Scorpio......The prior-life memory of having the rug pulled out from under their feet is responsible for most of these people coming into this life with a conditioned defensiveness, and a conditioned suspicion as to the motive and intentions of those who desire to be involved with them in some way. This dynamic creates emotional retention or withholding for fear of having the rug pulled once again.  It can take an abnormally long time for the individual to really trust another or a situation in which they are involved as a result."

Also it must have been extremely hard for this soul to trust he would make it through the birth canal of deep soul transformation in this life, even with loving support.  Virgo themes and all the Capricorn would express with extreme critical-ness and lots of self-judgment.

My nephew has a similar chart, born in 1993--loads of Capricorn in the 8th and Pluto in Scorpio in the 6th.  Lots of heaviness and mistrust.  

Everything I wrote below got me to what I wrote above:

The sensitivity (Pisces, and desire to hide possibly?) of his NN ruler conjunct the planetary ruler of the 4th house seemed too much for him to integrate into his body in this society as you well said Ari.  Add 6th house Pluto in Scorpio, would it be accurate to say, his soul's desire was to learn how to manage and organize the deep processes of psychological death and rebirth his soul needed to go through; yet the soul felt inadequate, not worthy, of embracing the responsibility and the process of self-care for his emotional well-being and subtle body energetics.  With Mercury Moon in Pisces he would easily get lost without bringing up the past life memories with the discernment of Virgo to help him see, think and feel clearly through the shadow of Pisces.  

If he rejected himself based on the shadow of Virgo archetype, his natural tendency with Pisces would be to hide (drugs, self-flagellation).  To go deeper, SN Virgo 4th house-Pluto Scorpio 6th house, his soul desired deep metamorphosis.  To achieve this, he would have needed to use the complete accuracy of the Virgo archetype to help him get there, to ultimately embrace Venus in Taurus (12th house-the experience of complete union with the Godhead, Goddess, and awareness of the aliveness of everything unseen) his Pluto Polarity (more Virgo-Pisces), to follow his destiny~seer, visionary (Moon, Mercury) for the collective community (10th house).

Also he would have to work with the square to Chiron in the 1st, which may have felt like complete loneliness to him, without a social community to share ideas, thoughts, etc.  I'm sure he had lots of original thoughts and ideas about healing.  Without shedding the shadow of Virgo though and embracing his knowing, the Gemini would have either been split within him and not expressing the highest ideas, or they imploded within, without expression.  

Much love Gu and everyone,

Wendy





« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2010, 08:33 AM by Wendy » Logged
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