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maggie
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« Reply #210 on: Mar 02, 2011, 03:36 PM »

Hi Rad.
Apologies... I'm finding very little time to get to grips with the latest 8th house thread. Roll Eyes. I'll catch you on the next one.
Kindest
Maggie
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Henrik
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« Reply #211 on: Mar 04, 2011, 08:59 AM »

Thank you Rad for answering my questions. As I have seen elsewhere in this forum your invaluable guidance and patience with our inquisative minds is truly a gift to the Universe.

Your answer to my posting on Pluto in the 8th probably answered my question in many aspects. However, I thought I'd post the particular paragraph/question again to see if there was something else you wanted to comment on:

The following paragraph is actually a question dressed up as a statement: The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (is this so, at least at some level?). What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. If I initiate an intimate relationship with you because you possess something I desire and then (once I have taken in what I need) leave you, most likely you will feel used. It is bad enough that the relationship is terminated, but the worst part will be that the other person will probably know that they have been used. How will they know? Unless there was a mutual give/take transmutation, one person will remain the same and the other will have gained something. This will be felt (even if it’s at an unconscious level) by both parties. Thus karma is set in motion. Also, when most of us initiate a relationship we invest ourselves emotionally and this only adds to the feeling hurt, especially if we feel that the other person had ulterior motives.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

All the best,
Henrik
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Rad
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« Reply #212 on: Mar 04, 2011, 03:31 PM »

Hi Henrik,

Your answer to my posting on Pluto in the 8th probably answered my question in many aspects. However, I thought I'd post the particular paragraph/question again to see if there was something else you wanted to comment on:

The following paragraph is actually a question dressed up as a statement: The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (is this so, at least at some level?).

********************

Yes, but not necessarily WHY they need whatever it is they need.

**********************

What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. If I initiate an intimate relationship with you because you possess something I desire and then (once I have taken in what I need) leave you, most likely you will feel used. It is bad enough that the relationship is terminated, but the worst part will be that the other person will probably know that they have been used. How will they know?

*************************

Because typically there are all kinds of declarative statements of intentions and reasons for wanting to be with the one who symbolizes what the other feels they needs. So when the one who has issued such statements of intentions, etc, then ups and leaves the one who have been left is now holding an empty bag full of those stated intentions and declarative statements.

********************************

 Unless there was a mutual give/take transmutation, one person will remain the same and the other will have gained something. This will be felt (even if it’s at an unconscious level) by both parties. Thus karma is set in motion. Also, when most of us initiate a relationship we invest ourselves emotionally and this only adds to the feeling hurt, especially if we feel that the other person had ulterior motives.


********************************

Of course yet the one who has been effectively used by the other also has their own dynamics that are responsible for allowing themselves to be used and mislead yet one more time. And until those inner dynamics are acknowledged within an intention to change them then that person is destined to keep recreating those relationship dynamics until they do.

***********************************

God Bless, Rad
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Henrik
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« Reply #213 on: Mar 04, 2011, 05:20 PM »

Thank you Rad for your comments.

Your last statement helped me realize what a slippery slope one's actions can be. Until one realizes that each action has a re-action which leads to yet another re-action one will never be truly free. I guess it doesn't matter if one feels that what has been done upon one-self is unjust (of course we put our-selves in this situation in the first place). In fact, following upon your last statement (and I do feel this is so inside)  it takes even more courage to forgive (or rather to take a higher stand in an encompassing point of view) than to live your life without inflicting pain to someone.

All the best,
Henrik
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Rad
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« Reply #214 on: Mar 07, 2011, 09:40 AM »

Hi Henrik,

 "In fact, following upon your last statement (and I do feel this is so inside)  it takes even more courage to forgive (or rather to take a higher stand in an encompassing point of view) than to live your life without inflicting pain to someone."

***************************************

Yes, this is exactly right Henrik. JWG wrote about this very point in his Pluto 2 book on relationships. As he put it how can one know who did what to who in the first place ? Unless one has some type of consciousness that can 'see' such things. Since most don't it does then come to this exact place of making a conscious choice to forgive, and then to move on. This doesn't mean that it is not essential to identify one's own inner dynamics that are responsible for creating whatever: it is.

God Bless, Rad
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mirta
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« Reply #215 on: Mar 10, 2011, 04:11 AM »

Hi Rad,
Indignation is the minimum that produces what youhave said about the Spanish publisher.
In addition, Luis Cárcamo isn´t a good publishing house. I have Alexander Ruperti's Astrological Houses in a bad translation, full of mistakes.
And now I saw that Uranus's subtitle in Spanish is "Freedom by knowledge" (??!!).
This is also lack of ethics isnt'it?.It should be forbidden for them to sell these books.
I hope EA and JWG's work will have a better way of spreading in the Spanish speaking countries.

This is the analysis I could do:
 
Pluto in 8th House, SN in 11th; PP in 2nd house, NN in 5th house.
General Understanding: My general vision of this paradigm is a passage from transpersonal to personal, in a kind of second turn or a way to approaching individual and concrete issues in a higher level of an evolutionary spiral. (I mean that although evolution is not linear, if Pluto and SN are between Libra and Pisces is because in some way the Soul has already been in the individual part of the archetypal spectrum, from Aries to Leo).
It is also a passage from knowing to acting, from a knowledge, theoretical approach to a concrete, actualizing plane.
This Soul has been accelerating its evolution in prior lifetimes, whatever its evolutionary condition may be (Pluto in 8th: metamorphosis; SN in 11tth: acceleration of evolution).
Now the evolutionary purpose is learning to identify the new values and resources produced by metamorphosis in order to attain more personal independence; doing it by creatively actualizing the objective knowledge and power attained through deconditioning and detachment.


Pluto in 8th House:
This Soul has been facing the limits of the individual’s identity, of who she/he is (experience of power), and who she/he is not and cannot be (powerlessness).
The evolutionary impulse of overcoming its limits is approached fundamentally in three aspects: Power, Knowledge and Relationships.
Power: In former lives this soul had to experience its limitations and to transform them in order to evolve.
The individual learned to absorb power from the power symbols to which he related producing a metamorphosis. These symbols could have been relationships, social status and a knowledge system or corpus.
The separation desire could have created a conflict and the need to stabilize the attained point  to protect the limits of the last interior metamorphosis. Resistances to destroying patterns could emerge leading even to a stagnation; or not, it could also have been a saturnine structuring time (Saturn coregent of 11th House) creating new limits that the Soul would be able to overcome later.
Knowledge: Psychological knowledge specially. This Soul is and has been living emotional, intellectual and spiritual confrontations that produced an interior psychoanalysis, leading to a deep knowledge, personal and transpersonal.
Always asking why, this soul seeks the meaning of all situations and experiences, why the individual (and other people) works as it does.
In a positive way the individual uses her/his natural psychological knowledge (according to her/his evolutionary condition) to help others to understand their motivations and desires, and to purge or eliminate negative or outworn patterns.
The objectivity developed by her/his SN made it possible.
Doing it, she/he helps other people to liberate from their interior limitations and to decondition from cultural and familial patterns from present and former lives.
I believe that here we can find a natural relationship between 8th and 11th houses archetypes, also manifested in Uranus’s exaltation in Scorpio (although JWG didn’t attend much to exaltations. . . )
In a positive manifestation the Soul will give power to others instead of using it to control or manipulate them.
SN 11th house detachment can aid in overcoming the need to manipulate. But it could also provide clarity to see how to better do it.
The individual would also be able to transform his/her limitations in higher levels of self-knowledge.
This soul has been trying to have direct experience of the symbols or sources of power it merged with.
The individual needs to see, sense, live directly the object of her/his desire or power. It is through this direct experience that she/he merged with the transformation symbols.
For him it is not a matter of belief, but of experience, objective experience (SN in 11th). Positively, this experience would lead to a spontaneous metamorphosis in him/herself. 
Negatively, the individual would try to manipulate the symbols for egocentric goals: objectification instead of objectivity.
Relationships: The evolutionary purpose of this Soul is learning to discern and decide with whom becoming involved and who could it trust (difficult for Pluto in  8th) and  commit.
The individual is learning to choose people who could be in harmony with his desire, needs and karma, and specially with her/his Soul.
He/she is learning to do adequate choices. But, adequate in what sense?
The individual needs a person that symbolizes something she/he needs consciously; but this can create an emotional dependency.
Or she/he looks for somebody that needs her/him (or sees him) as a transformation symbol, and that may also create dependency.
SN in 11th House’s experiences can develop detachment and teach the individual to recognize likeness in an objective manner, and this way doing adequate choices without emotional dependency or manipulation.
Conflicts may also arise between 8th house’s subjective identification and detached objectivity that SN promotes, until through overcoming it evolution could proceed.
Pluto will then choose partners who desire to evolve and change, accepting to put in risk what represents its security and SN could help to liberate from old stagnant relationship patterns.

SN in 11th House: This Soul has been overcoming its limits and doing its metamorphosis by liberation from crystallized forms of self definition; liberating from social and personal past patterns, and risking to liberate from the known.
The individual has been learning to avoid misidentifications, to not merge with external agents without a real likeness with her/him or that could limit or condition him to society consensus.
This Soul has been learning to see itself out of the limits of space and time.
The individual has been learning to observe her/himself in an objective manner in order to understand why she/he is the way she is, its limitations, power and powerlessness, and to eliminate the conditioning or stagnant elements or patterns that prevented metamorphosis and evolution.
Her/his tendency to accept the new helped to find new experiences of self-discovering and new answers to Soul’s “why? ”.
The evolutionary need of learning objectivity could have produced great upset (emotional, intellectual, spiritual or even physical) if the fixed archetypes manifested in some kind of rigidity. These upsets are intended to make the individual aware of her/his attachment to some ideas or beliefs.
SN in 11th House could help this Soul to leave its past conditionings, to develop new ways of relating with others and to experience what is unique in it.
The feeling of being different could allow the individual to merge with power symbols without undifferentiated fusion and to relate with other people understanding and respecting individuality.

PP in 2nd House: The evolutionary purpose for this lifetime is learning to identify the new values and resources produced by metamorphosis in order to attain more personal independence.
The individual is learning to reduce compulsive dependencies of external objects, personal and social, and looking within, to her/himself as a transformation symbol.
Through detachment from the environment and society she/he would identify her/his essential identity, eliminating emotional and karmic identifications with other people that she/he has been considering as aspects of himself.
Manipulation karma will then be transmuted because her/his development will not be dependent of other people or external situations.
Adequate choices will then be possible.
Self motivation and self reliance will be the basis of her/his action and behavior, and also she/he will encourage partners and relationships to develop in an independent way.

NN in 5th House: This nodal position helps the Soul to develop its evolutionary purpose by taking control of its destiny, thus not depending on external determinations or societal conditioning patterns.
It is of great importance that the individual learns to make his ideas becoming concrete realities, regarding her/himself and her/his values; in a self-reliant but not narcissistic way.
The purpose is creatively actualizing the new identity developed by objectively facing limitations, powerlessness and compulsions; deconditioning from societal pressures and objectively transforming her/his relationships.
She/he needs to actualize herself based on her own self-reliant efforts in her/his unique way, transmuting the need for external validation and creating re-empowerment within the Soul without needing to merge with other’s power or resources nor manipulate.
 
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
God Bless
Mirta




 


 


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Rad
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« Reply #216 on: Mar 10, 2011, 01:48 PM »

Hi Mirta,

 Very, very good analysis of this paradigm. Within this paradigm there also exists the archetypal possibilities of great trauma. What types of trauma do you think this could be ? As a result of possible traumas prior to the current life what impact would those traumas have on the current life ? What would be the way to understand or resolve those traumas relative to the signature of this paradigm ? Within this paradigm there exists the dynamic of compulsions and obsessions that could, as a result, create evolutionary stagnation. What types of compulsions and obsessions would occur within this paradigm, and what would the evolutionary intentions be in order to evolve beyond them ? How do these things then correlate to the type of inner relationship that the Soul has to itself, and what type of inner relationship would occur if the Soul makes the choices to evolve in this life ?

 God Bless, Rad
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mirta
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« Reply #217 on: Mar 12, 2011, 03:57 AM »

Hi Rad,
Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate your questions, they are the guide I need to deepen my understanding by focusing in the specificities and particularities, and also paradigmatic of  what I have to ask when facing a paradigm.
I have a little problem, I will be in Spain until March 23. I am going to think about these questions, but I am afraid I will not be able to complete it until coming back home.
If Henrik or other students are ready to continue with the next paradigm, I will then post these answers together with it.
Thanks again
God Bless
Mirta
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Henrik
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« Reply #218 on: Mar 18, 2011, 03:58 AM »

Hi Rad and Mirta and others in this thread.

I've had a hard time with this one as I have tried to include the different evolutionary stages and how our current configuration would manifest. I have not read what anyone might have posted in the last week as well as any comments from Rad so that I could try to come up with a simple analysis my self first.

Sn in the 11th
The archetype of Aquarius is about objectifying and deconditioning from the clouds of subjective thoughts and the clouds of all that we have identified with that is not intrinsically ours. The intention is to liberate our self from the conditioning of our identity that we have been exposed to from the outside and that we have taken in through interacting with other people and society. In a sense, we are cleansing ourselves from everything that is not inherent to ourselves. Why? We are preparing to focus on our relationship with source of creation. Obviously, except for a very few, this is not consciously felt. Before this can happen we need to discover (Sn) and then creatively project (Nn) something unique about our self out into the world. This archetype also correlates to the phenomenon of trauma (emotional fracturing as a response to an emotional shock). Traumatic events will occur when there has been resistance to the Uranian evolutionary impulse.  The intention then is to become aware of some blockage that is preventing us from liberating oneself from the conditioning of the social/society sphere. Just as depression is a natural expression of the Saturnian archetype to adjust our circumstantial inner/outer reality, so trauma is a natural occurrence to an unnatural identification of parts that is not inherent to our true individuality.

Depending on the evolutionary stage, the range of possible ways that the Sn in the 11th has been used to fulfill the evolutionary desires of the soul goes from a Saturnian to a Uranian expression,or a blend thereof. Regardless of the evolutionary stage, the person will seek out groups of likeminded souls.

Pluto in 8th house/Sn in the 11th house
The Pluto in the 8th will focus on what constitutes power in these groups and the dynamic that exists. How come this person is the leader or the person with power within the group? What is the dynamic at work here (within the group)? What are the roles and supporting power roles within the group? How do I motivate the people around me to subscribe power to me? What is it that this person has that I lack? How can I incorporate this into my psychological make-up? Is there something that I have identified with that is preventing me from radiating power to other people? Another way the Pluto 8th person with the Sn in the 11th might have experienced the past is betrayal (with)in groups from people he/she considered to be allies/friends (possibly traumatic). The intention is to analyze why? What were the motives of the Pluto person for considering these people to be allies/friends?
  In the consensus state these groups will reflect the norms and values of society at large and within these groups the Pluto 8th person will try to form relationships to those people that symbolize power/leadership. If the person is in the 3rd sub stage they may actually lead such groups and may try to steer the group with a vision of transformation, yet within the confines of society at large. They will have identified the power base(s) of whatever group they wish to lead. For example, if they want to be a leading politician (say a President), they will have identified the political party (and the key people within that party) as the power base. In order for the person to be a president they would have to make sure that the key people leading the party would believe that they stand to gain (subscribe power) by supporting this person. As Saturn is the Co-ruler of the 11th house, the person will have identified both the structures and the group dynamics of the party.
In the individuated stage (which is already inherently Uranian) these groups will be oriented to something that differentiates it from the main stream. If they are in the crossing over between the consensus and the individuated they may choose to seek out secret societies with norms and values that are different from the main stream so that they can appear normal at the surface but investigate groups that are beyond the consensus. Pluto in the 8th with Sn in the 11th will be driven by the search to find its’ true identity and power within and will form relationships to groups that seem to correspond to the next step in their own evolution. If the group/members do have something to offer the person will remain. In the 2nd sub stage, the person will wholeheartedly join groups that oppose the thoughts, norms, and values of the main stream. In the last sub stage the person will have objectified and identified its’ true individuality. At this stage the person will naturally attract others in the individuated state unto her/him as they see this person as representing something unique. The challenge at this stage is still to creatively project (Nn) some identified resource within (PPP) and to link this to a socially relevant need.
In the spiritualized stage the focus will be directed at individuals within groups that may have developed a direct relationship to the source. The person in this stage will be searching (albeit unconsciously at first) for ways to align themselves to groups that expresses the timeless and service to mankind. Of course, even here, (2nd sub stage) delusions of grandeur might be exhibited by those who have experienced the power of aligning themselves to the source. The delusion may come as these people start believing that the power that has been expressed is really coming from within them and not as a direct conduit of the source. Regardless of the evolutionary stage, the key to further development is to take action and to move to the Nn; to creatively link their unique ideas to a socially relevant purpose.

With Pluto being in the 8th/Scorpio, the mode of operation has been to wield power within groups (Sn in the 11th) or to align oneself with people and/or groups that seem to signal the transformative symbol of social power. Manipulation or being manipulated via group dynamics and power (often with the aid of sex) has been a central theme. Because of the focus on psychological motivations and group dynamics, this person may very well have developed the ability to form power bases through groups and to be the leader of such groups. Other people will be drawn to this person as someone who might have something they need. Of course, in the past the reverse would have been true. The potential/risk for forming or belonging to sects in the past is high with this configuration. Whereas a Pluto 7th/Libra person with this Sn might initiate a wide variety of relationships to different people in (and perhaps even different) groups, the Pluto 8th/Scorpio is very selective with what people and what group it forms relationships with. Because it is the Sn in the 11th, this person has probably developed extensive understanding (Aquarius) of group dynamics and how to assert power within groups. Because of recent lives the Pluto 8th person has been through experiences of personal transformation and these experiences have occurred within groups. Because Pluto in the 8th demands direct experiences, sex with key people (attempting to merge) within groups have probably been a re-occurring theme.

At some point evolutionary forces will produce situations that beckon the person to look inside in search for answers as to why situations have occurred involving manipulation of groups/people. Because both the Sn and Pluto are in fixed archetypes (unless mitigating factors) there might be serious resistance to change in the psychological orientation. For example compulsively searching out people who we think possess something we think we need only to find out that we have been manipulated and are left with emotions of anger and resentment. Thus, cataclysmic events may be common.  On the other hand, the ability to focus inwardly (Scorpio) on the reasons in psychological terms of why such an event might have occurred is enhanced in a Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio person.
So, traumatic events (cataclysmic) might be one way that the Sn in the 11th has been affecting the Pluto 8th person in this life or recently in past lives. Such traumatic events would probably be around the theme of manipulation and using or being used by power within groups. Until the PPP is developed, the person will be oriented to the Sn, seeking out people and groups that seem to possess something the person lacks.

PPP in the 2nd house/Nn in the 5th house
The underlying intention (even if unconscious) for a person with Pluto in the 8th house/Scorpio and the Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius is to, via the transformation of one’s identity within group dynamics (Sn in the 11th/Aquarius) focus inwardly (Pluto) to identify limitations within (Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio), to alter or remove things in one’s psychological make-up so that a metamorphose can occur; to learn how to identify oneself as the resource and source of power (PPP in the 2nd).
Once the person starts to become self-reliant they will start to see that they have something of value (Taurus) that is unique (Aquarius) and that needs to be expressed creatively (Leo). Whether they will be successful or not depends on their ability to link whatever they wish to express to some societal need (whether the society has realized that such a need yet exists or not) (Nn in the 5th/Leo).

Any feedback is greatly appreciated...

All the best,
Henrik
 
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Rad
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« Reply #219 on: Mar 18, 2011, 08:57 AM »

Hi Henrik,

 First, the correct way to do these EA paradigms is to start with Pluto because that is the core of desires within  the Soul that correlate to it's ongoing evolutionary needs. Then to the S.Node as the vehicle in which these desires became actualized. Then to the polarity point of Pluto as the core of the evolutionary desires for the current life, then to the N.Node as the way in which these core desires will be actualized.

 Your analysis covered certain parts of the overall archetypes within the paradigm itself. To the extent of what you included it was very good except the relative lack of development for Pluto's polarity point, and the N.Node. Much more can be said relative to these two parts of the paradigm we are considering. The polarity point for Pluto in this paradigm correlates at a root level to the Soul's inner relationship it has to itself which of course implies the basis of the inner relationship it had to itself before: the natal 8th House Pluto relative to the S.Node in the 11th. Within this what the Soul comes to value and, through extension of those values, what is going to constitute the core meaning for it's life. As a result of this evolutionary growth or change how this then affects how the Soul is in relationship to others in general, and it's intimate others specifically. Bases on this evolutionary growth, the Soul's next steps, how does the Soul go about actualizing these new evolutionary intentions: the N.Node in the 5th ?

 God Bless, Rad
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Henrik
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« Reply #220 on: Mar 18, 2011, 01:39 PM »

Hi Rad.

Thank you for your feedback. I did post a lengthy part I on Pluto in the 8th house where I stated that I would take it step by step and continue with the Sn in the 11th house. I totally agrree with you that the part of the PPP and the Nn is very underdeveloped, maybee I shouldn't have submitted that part and only the Sn/Pluto part. I will take in what you wrote and come back with a more complete follow up.

Thanks again for your time and guidance.

All the best,
Henrik
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mirta
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« Reply #221 on: Apr 08, 2011, 07:10 AM »



Hi Rad
I apologize for another delay; my health was not very good.
And then it was not easy to do this assignment, so I had to take more time and do a little research in order to organize my thoughts. Besides of my lack of knowledge, I believe the difficulty has to do with my own chart, my Soul.
Now, here is my try to following your furthering questions on the last paradigm: Pluto in 8th House, SN in 11th house; PPP in 2nd House, NN in 5th house:


Within this paradigm there also exists the archetypal possibilities of great trauma. What types of trauma do you think this could be ? As a result of possible traumas prior to the current life what impact would those traumas have on the current life ? What would be the way to understand or resolve those traumas relative to the signature of this paradigm ? Within this paradigm there exists the dynamic of compulsions and obsessions that could, as a result, create evolutionary stagnation. What types of compulsions and obsessions would occur within this paradigm, and what would the evolutionary intentions be in order to evolve beyond them ? How do these things then correlate to the type of inner relationship that the Soul has to itself, and what type of inner relationship would occur if the Soul makes the choices to evolve in this life ?


TRAUMA: Psychological research shows that compulsion to repeat the trauma always arouses. But also that repetition by itself only causes further suffering for the victim (past or current) or for people on their surroundings.
In his early works Freud had stated that repetition led to gain mastery in relation to traumatic events. But later he abandoned abreaction (and so did Jung) because he discovered that what helped to resolve was not repeating but remembering (and elaborating it). Repeating may be only an ‘acting out’ without understanding or removing the causes.
Then he stated that “All that we do not remember is repeated” and that remembering is what allows elaboration and resolution.
Thus remembering (Aquarius: long-term memory) and elaborating (attaining objectivity) is the way of not repeating (the causes of trauma or traumatic events, sometimes creating more trauma, or karma), and liberate of them.
I think that compulsion to repetition is Pluto, Scorpio, 8th House, and remembering and elaborating a Uranus, Aquarius, 11th House issue.
(Rad: I elaborated this paragraph from an article: The Compulsion to repeat the Trauma from the Trauma Website you once recommended to Gonzalo; and with what I had studied about Freud’s theory. Is that correct from an EA point of view?)
By the way, working with the great Freudian themes (trauma, compulsion to repetition) I was looking at his chart: Pluto and NN in Taurus in 6th House, Moon in 8th house, Scorpio ascendant, Sun conjunct Uranus in Taurus and Mars in 11th House.

Pluto in 8th House, SN in 11th house; PPP in 2nd house, NN in 5th house:
Trauma: I am not sure how to reasoning, but thinking that trauma can be necessary in order to become aware of the emotional patterns that we need to liberate from; and that in this paradigm there may be the need to liberate from emotional or psychological patterns that create limitations, I believe that trauma has been one of the means that SN in 11th house used in order to overcome the limitations that Pluto in VIII felt, and also to  destroy and transform the stagnant patterns that this fixed paradigm could have.
I believe that the types of trauma should be looked for, first, in the emotional body and related to 8th House issues. But there may be also trauma in the mental body. Indeed, they are related.
Assuming that compulsion to repetition is Pluto in 8th House, and objectifying is what this Soul has been trying in the last lifetimes (SN in 11th house), I believe that this paradigm has a great potential of trauma, but also a great potential to elaborate and resolve it (11th House) and then transforming its ideas and desires in concrete realities (5th house) that express its values (PPP in 2nd House).

So, trauma in  this Soul could be caused by: a) Loss of those that are closest to her/him; b): Abandon, suffered or caused by her/him; c) Betrayal and violations of trust, fundamentally being betrayed, but also having betrayed others; d) sexual trauma; e) excessive attachment; f) memories of persecutions;
These traumas could have happened in prior lifetimes. In the current life it is possible a repetition of them, even a compulsion to repeat the trauma, in order to gain objectivity and become aware of the causes, thus dissolving the patterns that created trauma.
Traumatic events were repressed and are stored in the individuated unconsciousness (Aquarius - Uranus) and can remain as “frozen” fragments of the psyche (complexes) that can even produce some splitting  and when reliving  they create the feeling that pain is caused by current situations or stress.

a) Loss of relationships: may be the Soul has been, and still is, seeking understanding and detachment in order to not so much suffer.
But it may also be (perhaps more possible) that the individual still tries to cling to in order to prevent loss, or even to manipulate to it. In that case she/he will only create more trauma.
It is also possible that the Soul looks for a prior life relationship in which loss would have happened in order to elaborate it.
In any case trust would be difficult; fear of loss would always be present in a way or other.
b) Abandon: Similar manifestations. Also, fear of abandon can also lead to abandon first in order to avoid pain.
c) Betrayal: If the individual was betrayed I believe the impact would be similar to the former.
Perhaps trust is even more difficult, and suspicion and hidden attitudes in order to avoid betrayal may be possible.
In this case trauma could also manifest in the mental plane (Uranus, 8th house), creating psychologically cataclysmic states.
If she/he was who betrayed, objectivity in order to see her own responsibility can be more difficult because of guilt, and thus the impulse to betray others or even take revenge may appear.
d) Trauma because of violations of trust can include sexual abuse. The individual may have had, or still has, desires to experience and know different forms of manifestation of sexual energy, embracing not conventional forms or taboos. The potential of misuse of sexual energy could create karmic conditions where others could also abuse the individual.
e) Excessive attachment and the consequent need of trauma in order to attain detachment.
f) The person may have also memories of having been persecuted for being different ( 10th House or Capricorn issues that SN in 11th House is trying to liberate from) , and develops a compensation defense mechanism of adopting the appearance of normalcy.
This way the repression of trauma creates more trauma because of feeling that she/he is living a lie.
g) There may also be physiological manifestations of trauma, in the genital or urinary area pancreas and colon; elimination or retentive problems: difficulty on eliminating urine or dehydrating, constipation; also nervous or neurological diseases.

In all these cases, objectivity - the ability to see that the trauma suffered was the consequence of her/his actions or choices -  is the only way to destroy the patterns and overcome trauma. At least it is the way to understand the causes.
The individual has to understand that basically current trauma is rooted in this stagnant patterns and prior choices, and not in the external conditions of the present moment (at least, that she/he attracted these conditions in order to understand and resolve.)
The way to resolve them is not holding to her/his own stagnant patterns, and understanding that any partnership or friendships that she/he have overly invested herself in such a way that she/he was blocking her growth must be liberated from.
May be she/he was intending to feel more powerful through this attachment, by merging with the other or by controlling. But it is the awareness that this overinvestment and attachment was actually blocking, what empowers the individual and allows her/him to furthering evolution.
The Soul needs develop self-reliance and self-sufficiency and living the relationships from that subjective position.
The individual should have accepted aloneness, even becoming a group of one.
After that, the new form of subjectivity that NN in 5th House is developing will be possible, less dependent on others recognition and taking control of its destiny, thus not depending on external validations or societal conditioning patterns.
The purpose is creatively actualizing the new identity developed by objectively facing limitations and traumatic compulsions deconditioning from past pressures and objectively transforming her/his relationships.

COMPULSIONS
Obsessive thoughts and compulsive acts are behaviors that a person feels impelled by an internal force to actualize. If she doesn’t, anxiety or anguish arises.
This compulsive acts or rituals are an attempt to avoid  painful feelings emergence to consciousness, as a way to “control” them. Indeed, the individual is controlled by them and by the underlying patterns. This defensive attitude produces stagnation of these patterns and prevents (or delays) evolution.
This Soul can manifest compulsive attitudes in relation to its merging with symbols of power that attracted it, and also to rituals that relate it to them.
Sexual compulsions would be a very possible manifestation, related to situations in which a sexual situation was empowering, or even as repetition of a traumatic sexual event.
The evolutionary intentions in order to evolve beyond them should have been to establish an objective relationship with the objects of its desires, compulsively experienced.
In relationships, for example, the possible compulsive need of being in them may be a distortion of the individual’s desire to commit (8th house) and also to overcome her/his limitations. But the compulsive distortion, or distorted compulsion, creates evolutionary stagnation because there can’t be commitment without respect for the other’s integrity, without freedom to be and to choose.
On the other hand, the compulsive need of somebody doesn’t produce overcoming of limitations; on the contrary the compulsive attachment becomes a limitation by itself, indeed is dependency (7th house issues not resolved)
The Soul would be relating with others as being a part of itself, and therefore not allowing identifying its inner essence.
The evolutionary intention should have been deconditioning and liberating from compulsive needs, replacing them by a capacity to detach from people or symbols of power, reducing compulsive dependencies on external objects and thus gaining an objective knowledge of her/his desires and need of them.
Her/his life would be more simple,  self reliance and self-sufficiency will be possible, and the ability to commit to a partner in a sustained relationship will manifest.
Adequate choices would be possible because they were based on objectively understanding her/his subjective needs and genuine Soul values.
She/he would then look within, to her/himself as a transformation symbol and become a self-motivated individual who could help others to evolve with freedom.
Thanks so much for your support and guidance
God Bless
Mirta




















































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Rad
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« Reply #222 on: Apr 08, 2011, 07:59 AM »

Hi Mirta,

 First, sorry to hear of your health issues. Whatever they are I sure pray that they become resolved. Second your analysis was exceptional. Bravo.

" (Rad: I elaborated this paragraph from an article: The Compulsion to repeat the Trauma from the Trauma Website you once recommended to Gonzalo; and with what I had studied about Freud’s theory. Is that correct from an EA point of view?)"

Yes, as far as it went. Beyond the remembering issue, which is important, is the need to objectify the inner dynamics and causes within the Soul itself that then correlates to self knowledge. The famous 8th House WHY. And, then, if the Soul chooses to liberate from such existing dynamics and inner causes to learn how to apply the personal will of the Soul relative to that which will help liberate the Soul from those existing inner dynamics that have lead to the compulsions in the first place.

I really applaud you in your determined efforts to deeply and fully grasp the nature of EA in the ways that you are Mirta. To make the effort that you did to research these issues is truly inspiring to me.

God Bless , Rad
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mirta
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« Reply #223 on: Apr 08, 2011, 03:34 PM »

Thanks Rad, I really appreciate all your feedback.
Yes, I am sincerely willing to grasp and understand EA, but I wouldn't be able to do it actually without your encouragement, support and guidance.
God Bless
Mirta
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Henrik
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« Reply #224 on: Apr 10, 2011, 11:26 AM »

Hi Rad.

Sorry for the delay. Me and my girlfriend is having our baby in June and have been looking for a place to live that can house the three of us. Mirta: sending you good vibrations and hoping that you recover well.

I have tried to rewrite som parts as well as excluding the various stages so as to simplify my analysis.

Rad:Thanks for your patience with my postings as I feel that your fedback is truly helpful...

General Methodology
Pluto in a sign correlates with the generational evolutionary requirements. Pluto in whatever sign and the specific house placement of Pluto will correlates to the individualized patterns in prior identity association to which the person will naturally gravitate to for emotional security. Where you find Pluto there has already been some development of the qualities associated with that sign and house.
The Sn indicates the past formation of ego-centric identities that have been used to actualize the Pluto (desire) function. The soul will choose the position of the moon that best serves its intentions in the current life-time to consciously express itself and its (often unconscious) desires on a moment by moment basis. As the ego evolves it will begin to gravitate more and more towards the Nn on the Sn-Nn axis. I suppose this can happen in the same way as with the evolution of the soul; uniform and/or cataclysmically. 
The PPP and the Nn represents counterpoint awareness that is necessary for evolution to continue. The PPP represent the core desires of the soul for this life whereas the Nn represents (unless mitigating circumstances) the direction of the evolving ego and way we consciously can express the unconscious desires of the soul. Here I suppose that for most people the main difference is that awareness of the PPP is unconscious whereas the Nn can be understood even though resisted.

Pluto
Pluto, in whatever house or sign, correlates with the desire (often unconscious) of the soul to evolve. However, Pluto also correlates to unconscious security. Thus, to evolve means to move beyond what constitutes the familiar and therein lies the paradox. This may be why Pluto in any sign and house is often associated with degrees of resistance and compulsive behavior. In whatever sign and house you find Pluto, there has already been some development. Depending on the archetypes of the sign and house you find Pluto and the evolutionary/karmic past may give us a clue as to whether the change will be progressive and/or cataclysmic. The desires emanating from the soul will be transmitted to and acted out via our Mars function on an instinctual basis.

Pluto in 8th House
The why as to the Pluto 8th house individual is because the soul desires to evolve and since the 8th house/Scorpio archetype deals with introspection/penetration and the psychology of why, sooner or later one is bound to discover the limits of what we are vs. what we are not. This means that unavoidably (and necessary so from the point of view of the desire of the soul) the limits of what we are (self, compared to others) becomes a focus area in these peoples' lives. To discover a limit/powerlessness is to realize that which we are not (internal/external confrontation) and this forms the basis for that which we need. So we initiate relationships to people and/or symbols that we feel have something that we need that we currently lack. Whereas Pluto in Libra desired to be in a wide variety of relationships, Pluto in Scorpio is more selective about whom or what they form relationships with. The selection is based on forming relationships to anything that symbolizes something the Pluto in Scorpio person lacks but wants.

Pluto in any house or sign correlates with compulsion. In the 8th house this quality is even more emphasized (double archetype) and it is directed at the desire of power or maybe more to the point, not feeling powerlessness (as in emotionally vulnerable). Can it not be said that we sometimes do things repeatedly that we know (or at least afterwards realize) to be against all logic or rationale? Yet, against our rational judgment, we do it again. Why? It’s because such instinctual impulses are associated with unconscious desire (Mars instinctually acting out the desires of Pluto/Soul) (natural inconjunct between 8th/Scorpio and 1st/Aries). However, compulsion can also occur because of unconscious security. In either case compulsive behavior is necessary because it sooner or later leads us to really look deep into ourselves and to identify why we act in such a way. I suppose a Mars in Aries in the 1st house would approach the unknown future (instinctively) in a very different way than a Mars in Taurus in the 2nd house.

The interesting thing about Pluto in the 8th is that these people KNOW what they need (but not WHY). What is at stake is the HOW they go about acquiring what they need. The how implies choice making and this is why karma is heavily emphasized in this configuration. The 8th house Pluto may compulsively be drawn or draw unto them situations or people that are seen as holding some source of power or there may be some sort of attraction on the surface that underneath triggers a repulsion (push/pull). The problem with this compulsion is that it invites manipulation. Again, the Pluto in the 8th knows what they need. Unless the person is evolved and honest to themselves and others about their intentions, the means to their end may be more important than how it is achieved (risk for manipulation).
 
If there is a true merging of that which we have initiated a relationship with, then we actually evolve via the 2nd house and internalize this as a resource. Pluto in the 8th represents internal and external confrontations on a cyclical basis because there is a dual desire that is acted upon. This behavior comes from the desire to feel secure (separating) and the desire to grow (return).

Sn in the 11th house
The archetype of Aquarius is about objectifying and deconditioning from the clouds of subjective thoughts and the clouds of all that we have identified with that is not intrinsically ours. The intention is to liberate our self from the conditioning of our identity that we have been exposed to from the outside and that we have taken in through interacting with other people and society. In a sense, we are cleansing ourselves from everything that is not inherent to ourselves. Why? We are preparing to focus on our relationship with source of creation. Obviously, except for a very few, this is not consciously felt. This archetype also correlates to the phenomenon of trauma (mental fracturing as a response to an emotional shock). Traumatic events will occur when there has been resistance to the Uranian evolutionary impulse.  The intention then is to become aware of some blockage that is preventing us from liberating oneself from the conditioning of the social/society sphere. Just as depression is a natural expression of the Saturnian archetype to adjust our circumstantial inner/outer reality, so trauma is a natural occurrence to an unnatural identification of parts that is not inherent to our true individuality.

The term “point-of-view” nicely describes the process involving the Sn in 11th house/Aquarius. As we interact and observe how people think and act within groups and over time between groups we start to see that depending on where we stand, different views are possible. Some sort of process of detachment is going on in this archetype (or impulses from out of nowhere transmit signals to our mind that ignites thoughts in our consciousness…). Thus to detach our self from the different viewpoints allows us to objectively observe and mentally experiment to find out which view best fits our individual self. Through the process of detaching our self we can start to see how we have defined our self and also what parts of our self-definition that has been taken in as a bi-product of conditioning from our external environment. Even though Aquarius is a fixed archetype, because it’s in a less dense element than for example earth (like Taurus), it is easier to both experiment with and change to other views. Also, while in a detached state of mind, we may identify some component about our self that prevents us from seeing clearly. By removing this ingredient we can then get a clearer view. Regardless of our evolutionary stage, in some area we will start to get signals that do not fit with those around us. We either ignore or suppress those ideas or we start to look for other groups where people seem to mirror our own view in some area.

So with a Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius, we may expect a behavior that evolves as time goes by; at first there will be a process of objectifying consciously how groups/society has impacted us in terms of values, beliefs, and anything else that we have taken in as a defining part of our self. Over many lifetimes as the ego evolves we start to feel the pull of the Nn more strongly. The ego integrates the tension between the past and the future and gives it form and personal identity in every moment in the present. So the Sn will correlate with those egocentric identities that our soul has chosen in the past in order for its evolutionary intentions to manifest. Thus, the Sn represents the conscious way that we have acted in the past in order to best fulfill/actualize (from the soul’s point-of-view) our unconscious desires (Pluto). In a sense the Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius has allowed us to discover how we have been influenced by the outside and what is unique about our self.
Question: Is it correct to view the development of the ego in a more conscious way (from the view-point of our incarnated self) than the development of the soul??? If so, can we interpret the long-term development of Sn to Nn as more conscious process in terms of consciously knowing or feeling the pull from the future?

Depending on the evolutionary stage, the range of possible ways that the Sn in the 11th has been used to fulfill the evolutionary desires of the soul goes from a Saturnian to a Uranian expression, or a blend thereof. Regardless of the evolutionary stage, the person will seek out groups of likeminded souls.

Pluto in 8th house/Sn in the 11th house
The Pluto in the 8th will focus on what constitutes power in these groups and the dynamic that exists. How come this person is the leader or the person with power within the group? What is the dynamic at work here (within the group)? What are the roles and supporting power roles within the group? How do I motivate the people around me to subscribe power to me? What is it that this person has that I lack? How can I incorporate this into my psychological make-up? Is there something that I have identified with that is preventing me from radiating power to other people? Another way the Pluto 8th person with the Sn in the 11th might have experienced the past is betrayal (with)in groups from people he/she considered to be allies/friends (possibly traumatic). The intention is to analyze why? What were the motives of the Pluto person for considering these people to be allies/friends?

With Pluto being in the 8th/Scorpio, the mode of operation has been to wield power within groups (Sn in the 11th) or to align oneself with people and/or groups that seem to signal the transformative symbol of social power. Manipulation or being manipulated via group dynamics and power (often with the aid of sex) has been a central theme. Because of the focus on psychological motivations and group dynamics, this person may very well have developed the ability to form power bases through groups and to be the leader of such groups. Other people will be drawn to this person as someone who might have something they need. Of course, in the past the reverse would have been true. The potential/risk for forming or belonging to sects in the past is high with this configuration. Whereas a Pluto 7th/Libra person with this Sn might initiate a wide variety of relationships to different people in (and perhaps even different) groups, the Pluto 8th/Scorpio is very selective with what people and what group it forms relationships with. Because it is the Sn in the 11th, this person has probably developed extensive understanding (Aquarius) of group dynamics and how to assert power within groups. Because of recent lives the Pluto 8th person has been through experiences of personal transformation and these experiences have occurred within groups. Because Pluto in the 8th demands direct experiences, sex with key people (attempting to merge) within groups have probably been a re-occurring theme.

At some point evolutionary forces will produce situations that beckon the person to look inside in search for answers as to why situations have occurred involving manipulation of groups/people. Because both the Sn and Pluto are in fixed archetypes (unless mitigating factors) there might be serious resistance to change in the psychological orientation. For example compulsively searching out people who we think possess something we think we need only to find out that we have been manipulated and are left with emotions of anger and resentment. Thus, cataclysmic events may be common.  On the other hand, the ability to focus inwardly (Scorpio) on the reasons in psychological terms of why such an event might have occurred is enhanced in a Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio person.
So, traumatic events (cataclysmic) might be one way that the Sn in the 11th has been affecting the Pluto 8th person in this life or recently in past lives. Such traumatic events would probably be around the theme of manipulation and using or being used by power within groups. However as as the personal identity (moon) develops from life to life, the gravitational pull from the future (Nn) gets stronger and the person consciously begin to fel the need to actively express their own ideas (Nn in the 5th/Leo).


PPP in the 2nd house/Nn in the 5th house
The underlying intention (even if unconscious) for a person with Pluto in the 8th house/Scorpio and the Sn in the 11th house/Aquarius is to, via the transformation of one’s identity (or what it has identified with) within group dynamics (Sn in the 11th/Aquarius) focus inwardly (Pluto) to identify limitations within (Pluto in the 8th/Scorpio), to alter or remove things in one’s psychological make-up so that a metamorphose can occur; to learn how to identify oneself as the resource and within finding the source of power (PPP in the 2nd). It is possible that in the past, the Pluto 8th person did not have a healthy relationship to itself inwardly because it didn’t trust itself and at times felt powerlessness. Of course this would then be reflected in the external environment as not being able to trust others either. Also, there will have been in the past experiences where the Pluto in the 8th person will have drawn to itself people or situations that would have reflected how the person felt inwardly about themself. In the specific case of the Pluto in the 8th/Sn in the 11th (whatever the level of evolution) past traumas involving betrayal would serve as the spark to initiate a different way of how to relate to oneself.  The PPP in the 2nd means to develop trust in one’s own abilities and to be able to rely on one’s own resources. In other words to reorient oneself in the inner relationship to oneself. As with most Pluto positions in the upper hemisphere there needs to be a movement from the objective to the subjective in order for evolution to proceed. First we observe and objectively understand something then we “put it to use” (subjectively expressing/acting on the understanding). With the Nn in the 5th there is a need to consciously and creatively express ideas, values or anything that constitutes understanding of the Scorpio spectrum of archetypes that is now identified with from within.
Once the person starts to become self-reliant and starts to trust in themselves they will start to see that they have something of value (Taurus) that is unique (Aquarius) and that needs to be expressed creatively (Leo). Whether they will be successful or not depends on their ability to link (objectively Sn in 11th/Aquarius) whatever they wish/need to express (PPPin the 2nd/Nn in the 5th/Leo) to some societal need (Aquarius/11th) (whether the society has realized that such a need yet exists or not).
It is the act of expressing and acting on the insights they have identified with that will help the person to liberate themselves from past traumas and past experiences of betrayal.
PPP in the 2nd will teach the individual to shed the conditioning patterns of the past. In conjunction with the Nn in the 5th, the person will creatively project that which is identified as inherent to them self.

Thank you for you comments and feedback...

All the best,
Henrik
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