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Author Topic: Further on Allende  (Read 3683 times)
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Gonzalo
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« on: Jul 29, 2010, 06:13 PM »

Hi Ellen

Thank you for your interest in Allende and the history of my country.
My feeling is that the birthdata I gave for Allende seems correct: 26 June 1908, at 5:50 am in Valparaiso, Chile.

I think that he was going from 2nd stage individuated to 3rd stage individuated. From total alienation and criticism and desire to totally change and revolutionize the system, to integration into society and understanding that changes occur slowly. His desire to integrate and help the system evolve is reflected in his whole life of service to true needs of the poor people, through public health and then through political leadership. It is also reflected in his personal understanding of philosophies such as Marxism. For example, he thought that Marxism was a proper thought system to understand history and social change, though he did not adhere to the methods proposed by Marxism to promote that change. In fact he integrated his Marxist understanding with the idea of democracy. However, he had skipped steps in evolutionary terms which refer to the sociological role he had to perform for others, which translated in the type of leadership he assumed on behalf of society at that particular time: becoming President. In his birthchart this is indicated by Saturn, the ruler of the South Node, which is in the 10th House Aries, squaring the nodal axis. Saturn is also in last quarter quintile to Pluto in the First House Gemini (which is  conjunct the North Node in Cancer, also in the 1st House). The North Node ruler is the Moon in the 12th House. He needed to embrace universal truths defining the type of leadership he was destined to have. This implied independency from societal expectations (SN in the 7th House Capricorn). Though, the skipped steps represented by Saturn in the 10th House applying to that South Node (in disseminating square to the South Node, required that he assumed social leadership in the terms of society. This also implied recreating the trauma originated in past lives in which he had tried to promote social change (Uranus Rx in Capricorn is conjunct the South Node, and is in crescent square to Saturn). With Neptune in the 1st House conjunct the North Node, ruled by the Moon in the 12th House, inconjunct this involved sacrificing his life for the ideals he represented.

I translated a part of the last words Allende spoke and transmitted through radio, at the time the hawkerhunters were already flying near the house of government. It is quite heavy to read these words at the current historical time frame, knowing what happened after Allende’s death. Though, I feel his words  are still inspiring.

“I shall pay with my life my defence of principles which are fundamental to this country (…) People must be alert and vigilant. You must not be provoked, nor must you allow being massacred, though you must also defend what you have conquered. You must defend the right to build a better and more dignified life.
(…)
Have faith. History cannot be stopped by repression or by crime. This stage shall be overcome (…) The future belongs to the people, to workers. Humanity is advancing to conquer a better life. .
Know that we are here, at least as an example, to show that there are men in Chile who know how to honor their duties. I shall do it to honor the will of the people, and because of the conscious will of a President holding to the dignity of his position.

Placed in this historical transition, I shall pay with my life my loyalty to the people. I am certain that the seed we have planted in the honorable consciousness of thousands and thousands of Chilean people will not be blinded forever. They have the power, they can overpower us, but social processes cannot be stopped by crime or by power. History belongs to us, history is made by the peoples.

Workers of my country: I thank you for the loyalty you always had, the trust you had in a man who was only an interpreter for the great desires for justice, a man who promised he would honor the Constitution and the laws, and who kept his promise (…) I address my words specially to the humble women of this country: the peasant women who believed in us, the working woman, the mother who knew of our concern for the children (…) I address my words to the young people, those who sang and who shared their happiness and their fighting spirit; I address my words to the men in Chile, the working man, the peasants, the intellectuals, those who will be persecuted, because fascism in our country has been present since a long time, through terrorist attacks (…) in the face of the silence of those who had the duty to act against them.
(…)
I shall always be with you, at least you will remember me as a man who was loyal to his country.
(…)
Workers of my country:  I have faith in Chile and our destiny. Other men will leave behind this gray and bitter moment, in which betrayal is trying to dominate. Keep knowing that, sooner than later, the big avenues shall be open where the free men will walk, to build a better society”.     

Thank you for your further feedback on this topic.

God Bless,

Gonzalo
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Elen
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« Reply #1 on: Jul 29, 2010, 09:06 PM »

Hi Gonzalo,

Thank you for the further information on Salvador Allende.  I don't know how to post charts, but here are the details (porphyry house system).  I hope others will be interested in exploring this Soul and chart. 

Sun        4 can 22 (1st)
Moon      8 Gem 37 (12th)
Mercury  16 Can 54 (1st)
Venus     19 Can 06 (1st) retro
Mars       22 Can 29 (2nd)
Jupiter    13 Leo 28 (2nd)
Saturn    09 Ari 36 (10th)
Uranus   15 Cap 21 (7th ) retro
Neptune  14 Can 11 (1st)
Pluto      24 Gem 32 (1st)
SN         05 Cap 08 (7th)
NN         05 Can 08 (1st)
ASC        16 Gem 04
MC          0 Ari 44
Chiron     22 Aqu 57 (8th)

Of note: 5 planets + NN in Cancer in 1st with Uranus & SN opposed.  Ruler of Uranus/SN= Saturn in 10th.  Saturn at apex of T-square with 1st H planets (including NN) & Uranus/SN (ie, skipped steps as pointed out by Gonzalo; the need to recover what is symbolized by SN/Uranus/Cap/7th).  Ruler of NN=Moon in Gemini in 12th (he certainly seemed to succeed in very powerfully letting go at the end of his life).  MC at 0 point Aries (violence).

Thank you for translating his final words.  They reaffirm for me the sense I have that suicide doesn't make sense for him.  When I first read it (the statement that he committed suicide) I felt confused because it contradicted my own understanding of his death.  Then when I read your post, my thought was that that (the assertion that he committed suicide) must have been intentional misinformation meant to undermine the moral power he had generated through his thoughts/words/actions in his life.  I thought that possibly the Neptune/Mercury conjunction in the 1st H square Saturn and opposed SN/Uranus could reflect this possibility: the powers that be putting forth false statements creating confusion about who he was/what he was about and thus undermining the revolutionary power of his life.

One question I had was if he ever lived in exile?  Or did he remain in Chile his whole life?  I had had a recollection that he lived in exile, but I am now getting the sense that this was not the case...

Peace,
Ellen

PS I plan to keep my eye open for a copy of Patricio Guzman's documentary on him but unfortunately the library system where I now live does not carry it.... (Would  you recommend this film?) 

Also, I was wondering if Michelle Bachelet's presidency in any way continued (or attempted to continue) the work of Allende.  (Sorry for my ignorance....)

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Gonzalo
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 29, 2010, 11:23 PM »

Hi Ellen,

One question I had was if he ever lived in exile?  Or did he remain in Chile his whole life? 

He was not in exile, at least not that I know. He was put in jail a couple of times when he was young, but he was not in exile.

I plan to keep my eye open for a copy of Patricio Guzman's documentary on him but unfortunately the library system where I now live does not carry it.... (Would  you recommend this film?) 

I think it is a good documentary, both informative and intimist. Quite beautiful film.

Also, I was wondering if Michelle Bachelet's presidency in any way continued (or attempted to continue) the work of Allende. 

My personal feeling is that Michelle Bachelet has been the Chilean president following Pinochet who has been more similar to Allende. To me this seems especially true at the level of ideals. Also, as regards what she did for betterment of public health in the area of pregnancy and motherhood, and in early scholarship.
And also in the type of good relationship she tried to develop and maintain with the militaries, something Allende had done too. Perhaps this was very difficult for Michelle Bachelet. It should be recalled that Michelle Bachelet’s father was a very democratic military, who was killed by Pinochet under charges of “betrayal to the country” during the first months of dictatorship. She herself was imprisoned, tortured and exiled. Probably both share a deep experience of disappointment or disillusionment about the concrete possibilities of “politics” for implementing ideals (her Pluto Polarity Point is in the 8th House Aquarius, the North Node is in the 9th House Pisces, Neptune is in the 4th House Libra, square Uranus in the 1st House Cancer, and opposed Jupiter Rx in the 10th House Aries). In other fields their governments were quite different politically, and the times when they were president were different, or at least seemed different. She necessarily was much more moderate as a socialist and much more conscious of the established powers. 

God Bless,

Gonzalo
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Elen
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 03, 2010, 04:56 PM »

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, Gonzalo.  I really appreciate the opportunity to learn about your country.

Peace,
Ellen
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gruff
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 05, 2010, 09:19 AM »

Just figuring out how best to post a chart. I apologize if this interupts conversation.


* chili.gif (15.09 KB, 699x569 - viewed 279 times.)
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Elen
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 05, 2010, 06:15 PM »

Thanks for posting Allende's chart, gruff.

Ellen
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Gonzalo
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 25, 2011, 11:38 PM »

(... if necessary I can post this on a new topic ...)

Hi Rad, and Ellen  …

Have a further comment on this topic, and two questions… Remember we discussed before about AIIendes death. Wonder you already know a new complete autopsy done this year points to suicide, in allegedly indubitable terms. Birthchart points so much to that, too; but I suppose it is not possible to know just from the birthchart. Is this correct?



Pluto 1st House, all the 1st house planets, the S.Node ruler Saturn, in the 10th House square the Nodes, is in Aries. Saturn in Aries is the ruler of the 8th House cusp. The planetary ruler of the 1st House North Node, the Moon, is in the 12th House, and the ruler of the Moon is again in the 1st House, and conjunct Mars.

The Saturn skipped steps would reflect, in that case, that taking his own life he had avoided assuming full responsibility at a societal level. He already created or leaded societal crises in past lifetimes. This of course occurred as a consequence of his type of leadership, and the use of the force and armed force in the rebellion and revolution against consensus (Uranus conjunct S.Node, both in Capricorn). The past life experiences of falls from societal power and leadership were in fact a cause of trauma for Salvador´s Soul, traumas which had been repressed (Uranus in Capricorn, Saturn square S.Node/Uranus, in the 10th House, square the nodes). Thus the need for repetition is clear in the birthchart. There was trauma, which was repressed,  and at same time, for some reasons-such as dying by own hand, or being killed … quick deaths- he had not fully experienced the types of consequences the same societal events had involved for other people, some of which were quite more extreme. This was also a reason for repressed guilt, fueling the emotional rage, and anger... Thus, he need to recreate those experiences in order to respond in a new way also implied the possibility of assuming all the own emotional states being repressed (Saturn) or denied, or avoided or idealized to some degree (Neptune 1st House square Saturn), this idealization .

Rad, given that Salvador again had in that lifetime a quick life ending, is it possible that he would have incarnated very quickly, and that had experienced an immediate lifetime within the womb of a woman dying at concentration camp, where his Soul would have experienced more of the societal de facto consequences of the fall of his government ? Would this be reflected in the Moon-N.Node ruler- in the 12th House, Neptune in Cancer 1st House conjunct the N.Node bi-quintile to Uranus in Capricorn conjunct the South Node, ruled by Saturn in the 10th House-by the “again established” powers)?

Thank you so much

God Bless,

Gonzalo
« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2011, 11:44 PM by Gonzalo » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 26, 2011, 07:00 AM »

Hi Gonzalo,

Thanks for your last post.  Very, very interesting.  Will be very interested in Rad's response.  I can only say that for myself, it fits in perfectly with the theme of delusions crashing all around me at this time...... And hadn't thought at all in terms of the repressed anger/rage and previous life rebellions, etc.  (My own Mars conjunct SN and Jupiter in Aries square nodes - so big time anger issues and certainly a blind spot in picking up on this......Need to believe in heroes/saviors, I suppose.....[12th house Pluto/Uranus inconjunct Jupiter/Aries. Probably participated in a few rebellions myself in the past.  I understand the guilt.)

Warmly,
Ellen

Addition: I also understand the need for self-forgiveness, which, it seems to me, if he did commit suicide, perhaps means he will have to come to that in another life.  Perhaps the collapse of his perspective (Gemini) was too much to bear.  But perhaps this paves the way for humility/self-forgiveness (12th moon ruler of NN) in a next lifetime.....
« Last Edit: Aug 26, 2011, 07:16 AM by Ellen » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 26, 2011, 07:40 AM »

Hi Gonzalo,

"Have a further comment on this topic, and two questions… Remember we discussed before about AIIendes death. Wonder you already know a new complete autopsy done this year points to suicide, in allegedly indubitable terms. Birthchart points so much to that, too; but I suppose it is not possible to know just from the birthchart. Is this correct?"

*******************************

From the birth chart alone it is possible to determine the probability of such a thing. All the symbols you have pointed out do in fact point to that probability as well as some other symbols such as his natal Chiron being in Aquarius in his 8th, which is then ruled by his Uranus in Capricorn that is opposed all those planets in Cancer: Mars, Venus, Mercury, and Neptune. And, of course, as you pointed out, Mars is the ruler of his Saturn in Aries in the 10th, and the skipped symbolized by it's square to his Nodal Axis. Additionally, his S.Node of Chiron is in his 11th House which is mirroring his current life Chiron in Aquarius in the 8th remembering that the archetype for suicide is the 8th House, Pluto, and Scorpio. And that S.Node of Chiron is ruled by not only the current life Venus which is conjunct his natal Mars, but also his N.Node of Chiron in in Libra in his 4th which is ruled by that same Venus. And, of course, his natal Uranus in conjunct his S.Node of Pluto, his S.Node of Saturn is in the 8th, and the N.Node of Pluto is conjunct with the N.Node of Saturn in Cancer which are conjunct all those planets in Cancer including that Mars and Venus. So the overwhelming amount of astrological 'evidence' certainly supports the very high probability of suicide: past and present.

************************

"Rad, given that Salvador again had in that lifetime a quick life ending, is it possible that he would have incarnated very quickly, and that had experienced an immediate lifetime within the womb of a woman dying at concentration camp, where his Soul would have experienced more of the societal de facto consequences of the fall of his government ? Would this be reflected in the Moon-N.Node ruler- in the 12th House, Neptune in Cancer 1st House conjunct the N.Node bi-quintile to Uranus in Capricorn conjunct the South Node, ruled by Saturn in the 10th House-by the “again established” powers)?"

******************************

Astrology, even EA, can not be as specific as that. EA is about evolutionary and karmic dynamics and the reasons for such: past, present, and the future. It is generally true that when a Soul has a quick and sudden ending in any given life that such a Soul will reincarnate pretty quickly into the next life.

********************************

God Bless, Rad


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Oliver Fred
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 27, 2011, 12:35 PM »

Hi Rad and Gonzalo,

I was recently looking at a friend's chart, in preparation for a full reading, and I wanted to know a little more about the evidence of suicide in the past. You said Scorpio, Pluto and the 8th house rule that. She has Saturn conjunct her South Node in Scorpio in the Eighth, Pluto in the seventh with Mars conjunct Venus conjunct her Ascendant. I didn't want to even mention the possibility to her unless I was entirely sure. She was born by c-section (premature), Mars/ Venus conjunct Ascendant and I wanted to ask if this could be a clue as to "how" she committed suicide? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Take care.

-Oliver
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Rad
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 28, 2011, 08:03 AM »

Hi Oliver,

There all kinds of Souls who have those symbols who have not committed suicide. Unless you are certain that your client has done such a thing it's best not to say anything at all. The information / symbols you have presented here are not sufficient to arrive at such a conclusion.

God Bless, Rad
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