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Author Topic: Capricorn Archetype  (Read 15837 times)
Wendy
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 28, 2010, 02:21 PM »

Ellen, did you see Deva's post on the first page? She mentioned emotional suppression. Maybe what she wrote answers your question?
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Elen
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 28, 2010, 03:51 PM »

Hi Wendy,

Thanks.  Yes, I did see it.  Actually, it's what prompted my question.  I was pondering how specifically it ties into security.  I wrote out what I was thinking about it and was wondering if others had thoughts on it.

Peace,
Ellen
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Tamara
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 29, 2010, 05:32 AM »

I also think of the 'responsibility' of Frodo to return the Ring to the fires of Mount Doom, in J. R. R. Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings." I want to say Tolkein has cap/cancer nodes, but I may or may not be correct.
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Bradley J
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 29, 2010, 11:17 AM »

Hi,
Just getting back now. 
Ellen, regarding the security question, I'm going to toss out what I think.
It seems  that one finding security in the suppression is due to the comfortableness of conformity, or that is the 'obeying' the right and wrong and normalness of consensus, as conditioned thru the parents, family and culture/religion of birth.
 
Also, that it is entirely possible that in past lives one has found security in suppression of natural desires, yet is now needing to go back to release and allow these desires to come out in natural ways.  Due to the level of conditioning, there is still variation of how much security one has from continuing to suppress and judge oneself based on deeply ingrained conditioning factors.
I hope this is getting close to your question.  As for the maturing piece, the suppression is linked with the controlling of emotions, of course.
 So, when one is taught, or conditioned, to perform/act/carry out responsibility in a certain way(s), as you said "the downside in this distorted expression is that the person actually never gets to mature and never gets to really come to know her/himself."  That sounds right on.  There is not a place for the emotions to be expressed carrying out roles and responsibilities in this distorted conditioning.  And consensus reality is defining this behavior as what brings security.  If allowing the true emotions to come out, one would be potentially, for example, lose their job.  It is the 'catch 22' of 'playing the game'.
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Elen
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 29, 2010, 01:58 PM »

Hi Bradley,

Thank you.  I'm just thinking out loud here.  The word "obey" caught my attention.  Thinking about what Tamara also wrote about Frodo, obedience seems like an essential part of the Capricorn archetype.  The question is what is Cap obeying and why and that would seem to be dictated in part by the emotional maturity of the individual and in part by the consensus norms of the culture.  So, one could say that true, or natural, security is obedience to one's inner guidance system, but distorted security would express as obedience to outward norms and expectations.   I'm just thinking that obedience tends to be seen as a negative in our (American) culture.  But really, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with obedience, just what you're choosing (or able) to be obedient to...

Thanks for stimulating my thoughts on this.

Peace,
Ellen  
« Last Edit: Dec 29, 2010, 06:50 PM by Ellen » Logged
Dhyana
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 29, 2010, 09:52 PM »

I thought I would provide the link to an article that Lia wrote a while back, reflecting on the Capricorn Archetype. I remember this was one of the first things I read as I searched the web for evolutionary astrology -- it really had/has such depth.

Thanks again Lia!  --Who knows how many other people searched the web and read such a depthful article about Capricorn.

http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/thoughts-about-capricorn
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Linda
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 30, 2010, 10:44 PM »

Hi Bradley and everyone,

This topic is moving along so well.  The insights I have gained from all of your posts has been just amazing (since I have 3 personal planets in Capricorn 3rd, with my Moon in Cancer 9th).

It was especially important to learn about the emotional suppression of the Capricorn archetype.  Do we understand why this distortion happened during the formation of the patriarchy?

I would love to learn more about the "natural" feminine archetype of Capricorn/Saturn, and how Mother Earth sustains us within her structures.  A baby gains a feeling of security when held securely by the mother.  

Australia, where I live, has its Sun and Saturn (presently impacted by T-Pluto) in Capricorn, and emotional expression is still so completely frowned upon.  It's a very "dry" country indeed.
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Wendy
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 31, 2010, 07:49 AM »

Hi All,

I read the article link posted by Dhyana and liked it very much, though I still believe Capricorn is a feminine archetype, even in the ancient past. 

All the astro signs and their polarities (Aries-Libra, Taurus-Scorpio, Gemini-Sag, Cancer-Cap, Leo-Aquarius, Virgo-Pisces) are paired in masculine-feminine groupings.  So why would Cancer-Cap be any different?

I still wonder about my original question "why are the ruling planets of Capricorn (and Virgo), both intrinsically feminine archetypes, ruled by 'masculine' planets?  I feel the patriarchy influenced the archetypes (especially earth and water) into suppression, as well as the planets.  This is a feeling I have.

Happy New Year,
Wendy
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Elen
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 31, 2010, 08:22 AM »

Hi Bradley and everyone,

This topic is moving along so well.  The insights I have gained from all of your posts has been just amazing (since I have 3 personal planets in Capricorn 3rd, with my Moon in Cancer 9th).

It was especially important to learn about the emotional suppression of the Capricorn archetype.  Do we understand why this distortion happened during the formation of the patriarchy?
Hi Linda,
Really interesting question.  My first thought has to do with the necessity that comes from a martial-type of community (I have Mars/Cap conjunct SN and square Jupiter/Aries.  I also have Sun and Merc in Cap squaring Jup/Aries).  But I think also patriarchy is about superiority - competition - the need to be better than someone else.  That type of emphasis doesn't lend itself to introspection and being in touch with one's emotions.  It's not about caring about others (which would necessitate being in touch with oneself).  It is about defeating other people.  All that requires is force.  I think James DeMeo's book, Saharasia gives an interesting look at the psychological impact of patriarchy and how that was transferred from one generation to the next resulting in a huge cultural shift. He relies heavily on the work of the late psychologist Wilhelm Reich (I think that's his right first name...?).  Anyway, that's my thinking on it.  I'm curious about others' perspectives.

Peace,
Ellen



I would love to learn more about the "natural" feminine archetype of Capricorn/Saturn, and how Mother Earth sustains us within her structures.  A baby gains a feeling of security when held securely by the mother.  

Australia, where I live, has its Sun and Saturn (presently impacted by T-Pluto) in Capricorn, and emotional expression is still so completely frowned upon.  It's a very "dry" country indeed.
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Elen
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 31, 2010, 08:36 AM »

Hi Linda,

One more thing I'm remembering from DeMeo.  He traces the formation of the patriarchy back to the initial formation of deserts on the planet.  I do not know if his thesis is in keeping with EA (and by all means, those in the know, let me know!) but I thought his work was insightful.  Anyway, for him, patriarchy formed as a result of the psychological shift that took place in the human psyche as a result of prolonged exposure to scarcity and thus a necessary cultural orientation towards survival.  This led to practices that further skewed the human psyche and these practices were then passed down, generation to generation.  Also, survival needs led communities to become aggressive towards others.  Because force won out, these cultural practices were also spread to other communities.  So it seems to me that part of an answer to your question also stems from the realities of trauma to the human psyche, both from scarcity and from aggression/force/violence.  This is interesting to me because now we are entering the age of Aquarius and we do seem to be confronting the realities of the traumas that we have endured, hopefully so that they can be healed!

Peace,
Ellen
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Bradley J
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 31, 2010, 01:10 PM »

Hi All,

Thanks for this link to Lia's writing, Dhyana.  I still need to wait for time to go back and read this.

Wendy, thanks for bringing back this question, I believe we will be getting into this more.  I hear you.  I am sure we'd agree that the patriarchal defining reality is similarly reflected in a masculine 'Neptune' for the very yin mutable water pisces.  We know prior to this, other archetypal deities/stories/myths were related which reflected the pure yin essence.  Why masculine planets, in my opinion, is that it is simply reflection of the patriarchal era which still reigns.  Where the Cronos/Saturn myth reflects the story of the patriarchal take over/domination.  Do you agree this is why?  Would the undistorted archetype be eating their children?

Ellen and Linda, thanks for your continued posts, insights, and questions.  I believe I'll be having more time to participate here this weekend.

Blessings,
Bradley
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ari moshe
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 31, 2010, 03:10 PM »

Quote
Where Cap goes wrong (in this patriarchal world only?) is in thinking that time and space (outer) is all there is, and thus it gets stuck, believing that "what is" is all there is, rather than understanding that "what is" is simply a moment in time - a platform (structure) from which to take the next step.  It is what we have created, but not necessarily what must come next.  The Emotional Journey - our connection to our inner emotional truth - is where possibility lies.  The mistake that Cap makes is in thinking that the form is reality.  The center of bones is not hard but soft and fluid-like.  Perhaps it could be said that what in fact what makes up form/structure is the emotional center....?

I really appreciate this insight Ellen!

I've been reflecting, in my own life, about the need to take responsibility for my actions. For example, following a diet routine or practice of any kind on behalf of reaching a particular goal alone seems to be the shadow Ellen was pointing towards. I'm sitting with the wisdom of Capricorn to embrace structure and make long term choices in a way that allows a strengthening to occur over time, as opposed to perpetual repression.

How does Capricorn develop the maturity to get its act together in the right way? I feel time and life experience are probably the essence of the answer. However I feel I really don't know. Here are some thoughts that I've been thinking about re: phasal relationships to Capricorn:

The natural new phase semi-sextile between Sag and Capricorn correlates to the need for a soul to "un randomize" the ideas discovered in sag by focusing them in a new concrete form. From sag to Capricorn, this is a completely new and undeveloped skill. It's necessary to constrict based on the learned realization that expansiveness alone will not cut it.

However from Scorpio to Capricorn we are looking at the crescent phase semi sextile which correlates to an awareness of what is necessary based on psychological self knowledge, and thus the capacity to make constructive choices based on that knowledge.
Ari Moshe
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Bradley J
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 01, 2011, 01:08 AM »

Ari Moshe, thanks for this post, appreciate the tie in to natural zodiac connections.

Wendy, well after reading Lia's article and rethinking my last post, specifically:
Where the Cronos/Saturn myth reflects the story of the patriarchal take over/domination.  Do you agree this is why?  Would the undistorted archetype be eating their children?
in light of Lia's writting: "Today it is obvious to me that the symbolism with the yearly renewal cycle actually comes from the old forgotten mother culture, i.e. symbolically sacrificing/recycling the beloved son/lover of the Goddess for the new life to spring out of the old, is what is hidden in the Capricorn symbolism."
Now, I am honestly not sure what to think...maybe this is part of the archetype??  In comparison, the patriarchal example is more violent and the older example has the symbolic spiritual ritual piece about it.
Nonetheless, a common thread.

Well, I keep going back to what is 'natural' about dominance and being dominated.  I do believe this has relevance to questions and dialogue thus far because we face the past and present pain and wounding of great distortions of domination.  
When I think of chickens who have a natural pecking order, this appears to be a natural dominance and social structuring.  These dynamics occur naturally in so many ways.  
Another thought is the hunting of prey by predator.  As humans, we have ancient memories of being both the prey and the predator - directly tied to survival situations.  The quintessential Capricorn traits are all necessary in these types of situations: emotional maturity and control over emotions - part of this being emotion of fear due to threatened loss of security, wisdom of the elders - how to handle the situation, focus, concentration, self discipline, a sense of one's own authority, etc.  

As an example of establishing one's own authority, we can consider the results of a lack of this - natural square to aries/1st - if not the courage needed then acting cowardly - to cower - shrinking back out of fear.  If we bring this into human-animal contacts, we see there is security in establishing one's authority and having control.  I often wonder about animal 'training' - I mean, is there not a sense of having to be in control.  If there is inconsistency in maintaining routine boundaries, then the caretaker can become perceived as 'wishy-washy' or easy to take advantage of.  Here is part of the Capricorn archetype of timing and consistency.  If you are inconsistent or lack the self discipline and/or authority to maintain clear consistent expectations, boundaries, and routines, then the animal can both 'misbehave' as well as have a natural lack of security(polarity).
Recently, the horses were out roaming the land.  I wanted to help, but did not know what to do.  I was told to stand 'here' and simply raise up my hands if one of the horses came toward me.  Fascinating that an animal of so much more power would just turn the other way if I raised my hands.  
With raising children, the capricorn/10th/saturn elements are essential if the children are to grow up and mature.  The natural square to aries, the freedom of acting to discover on one's own stresses the parents in keeping boundaries, routines, and completing responsibilities.  If we allow our children to experience life firsthand(aries) all the time, they would be wounded or possibly die.  In the present, we have these wierd things called roads where the danger of metal boxes traveling at great speeds suddenly zoom by.  In the olden days, we have the need, at times, to be silent in the woods for example.  Or, to not run too far ahead on the path.  The child just wants the freedom to run ahead and discover for theirself(aries), while the authority of the parent/caretaker is challenged because they have lived long enough to have the experience to learn of danger.  Capricorn/saturn/10th keeps us secure(polarity) from danger(square to aries and libra) by learned cautiousness, boundaries, etc.  
Back to the domination part, if we appear weak, we are more likely to become prey.  It is like street smarts, a poker face - a way of coming across as having authority over one's own life - all these things bringing and allowing growth of an inner sense of emotional security.

Some humans do get a lot of security out of order, similar, in a sense, to creating a predictable consistent environment for animals.  And some feel trapped and desire to rebel and/or escape(natural next steps - aquarius & pisces).  However, if we take the bigger picture, the fact that the day is 24 hours long and the sun rises on time, the moon keeps its speed and only shows us one face, the sun and moon appear the same size - these phenomena are reflected in the psychological structure of human consciousness AND bring security because the structure of time, predictable as it is on earth right now, allows for patterning, organization, and wisdom thru observing life within these constants.  Our whole reality is held within this framework of time, as experienced on earth.  Imagine the insecurities which would arise if the the earth slowed it's spinning on it's axis, the moon started moving farther away, or the sun grew in size much more rapidly.  All of this is shifting/changing/transforming time as we experience it now - aquarius/uranus - fear of the unknown.
 
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Linda
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 01, 2011, 04:19 AM »

Hi Ellen and everyone,

Further to your thoughts on the origins of the patriarchy, here are some extracts from Claudia von Werlhof's thesis, "Patriarchy as Negation of Matriarchy - the Perspective of a Delusion."  http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/werlhof.html

According to my thesis and seen from a matriarchal viewpoint, patriarchy is neither in itself nor of its own an order of society, culture, or civilization. It is not independent of matriarchal forms of society but has developed out of the negation of matriarchy. Seen as such, patriarchy has to be called a delusion.

I am pleading for understanding our social order as basically a global patriarchy which has evolved over a period of 5 to 7000 years, with global capitalism as its, so far, last and "highest" form of expression which marks the limits of its development.    

Patriarchy has a beginning and it will, therefore, eventually have an end. Seen from an evolutionary perspective, it is not "necessary" and it should, therefore, not be overrated. In other words: Societies organized according to "non-patriarchal" principles must, simply for logical reasons, have existed. Therefore, they can and possibly will, for the same logical reasons, develop again.

For very long periods of human history there globally existed a many-faceted matriarchal world culture, and patriarchy is, in its different forms of appearance, simply an evolutionary error of very recent origin, although an extremely dangerous and violent one.

Indigenous matriarchal cultures in North America know, for instance, two basic rules according to which they orient their lives: All life comes from women. Life must not be endangered.  Matriarchal societies all over the world and at all times would probably stick to these two basic rules.

According to the relevant literature, social relations probably lost their matriarchal character in a situation of need, danger, or emergency that might have occurred on account of climatic changes that were followed by "catastrophic" migrations in the course of which matriarchal social relations were injured and spoilt and finally destroyed (J. de Meo).

"Oriental despotism" determined the rise and development of patriarchies in antiquity and thus also the rise and development of Western patriarchy which was later established by means of Roman colonization and of violent waves of Christianization starting from Rome.

The tremendous use of violence, right from the beginning, characterizes patriarchal systems of domination.  As far as we know today, patriarchy always and everywhere begins with war.

With war as "the father of all things" instead of life as "the mother of all things", creation and wealth appear to come from willful destruction instead of from the cooperation of all things alive.

The delusion of patriarchy will, like a phantom, disappear from the surface of the earth ...
« Last Edit: Jan 01, 2011, 04:36 AM by Linda » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 01, 2011, 06:20 AM »

Wow, Linda.  Thanks!  The following statement struck a particular chord with me:

"With war as "the father of all things" instead of life as "the mother of all things", creation and wealth appear to come from willful destruction instead of from the cooperation of all things alive."

What a choice!  And that makes me wonder, given that Cap is time/space, wouldn't choice be a natural part of the archetype?  So the question is, what are we going to choose?  Emotional suppression (and thus emotional immaturity and the perpetuation of violence) or emotional wisening (and thus emotional maturation and the chance for peace).  Is Capricorn also about apprenticeship (master/apprentice type relationships)HuhHuh??  So with whom or what do we choose to align with in terms of our apprenticeship here on earth?  Knowing what we know, and with all the amazing examples that we have, we DO have a choice in how we respond, even in the midst of scarcity and violence... Maybe we can't change how anyone else responds, but that doesn't mean we can't choose consciously for ourselves. 

Also, Cap is trine Taurus and sextile Scorpio.  This is an interesting connection to me as I have always struggled with money.  But money is just a tool and the easy aspects to these signs suggest we have a choice as to how to relate to money.  Money can be used to perpetuate violence or to foster cooperation.  The question is about manifestation (which comes originally from our values), not about money... This is a huge insight for me.  I've heard others talk about this, but I haven't been able to get it myself until now.  Perhaps this is taking things a step too far, but perhaps it could even be reasoned that mastering (Cap) money is a kind of obligation (Cap) given that money, at least for now, is what shapes our societies.  Not mastering money could be seen as a form of emotional immaturity or frozenness in time that arises from suppression/denial of the current reality or a resistance or rebellion (Aquarian reaction to Cap).  Some thoughts that are making a lot of sense to me, but not sure if they're correct... I mean, you could argue that the origins of money were grounded in the desire for domination and control, and thus that money should be resisted because it is intrinsically problematic.  I think that's what I've always thought unconsciously.  But really, money is just a thing.  It is our conscious attitude towards it - our intention with it - that perhaps, after all, is the determining factor.  Cap is earth.  Doesn't like change.  At some point, the introduction of money would have been a change.  Also, this last connection: emotional suppression (Cap)--> self-loathing (Scorpio?)-->devaluing of self (with money as a projected symbol)  (Taurus).  But it could go: emotional wisening (Cap)-->valuing of self (Taurus)-->merging with the symbol of money (Scorpio) as a means of manifesting one's values (Taurus).  Pisces (sextile Cap, trine Scorpio, sextile Taurus) could also be drawn in - allowing money to flow through oneself as a means of manifesting the divine or love or higher expression of some sort.  Maybe this is just all really corrupted thought on my part, but, as I said, I have always struggled with money, and this is making sense to me at this time.

Love,
Ellen
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