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Author Topic: Pluto in a house and sign that are naturally opposite  (Read 1743 times)
serban_p
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« on: Jan 17, 2011, 08:07 am »

Hi everybody,

I would like to ask a question about the situation when Pluto is in a house and sign that correspond to opposing archetypes, ie Pluto in Libra in the 1st house, Pluto in Scorpio in the 2nd house etc. Is there any specific guidance regarding the understanding of the bottom line of such a signature?

The reason which prompted me to ask this question is the fact that looking at the chart of somebody with Pluto in the 11th house helped me understand that person in so many new ways and helped me put things in a perspective which makes so much sense, that I overlooked the sign Pluto was in, only to discover to my surprise that in was in fact in Leo.

The way I understand things, the sign of the natal Pluto correlates to the evolutionary intentions of the entire generation born with Pluto in that sign. However, those evolutionary intentions must be acted upon by the various individuals that make up that generation (since Pluto cannot have a generational effect without having at the same time an effect on each and every individual that is a part of that generation) and therefore, although Pluto’s sign is an indication of the evolutionary past of a Soul, it is the house placement of Pluto that indicates the specific evolutionary intentions of a Soul, within the larger context of the generation that the Soul is born into.

Although I suspect that the answer to my question lies in the development of a deep understanding of the entire spectrum of the archetypes involved, which would enable somebody to get to the bottom line of such a chart, I would like to know if there are any specific guidelines on how to proceed in such a scenario.

With respect to the chart that prompted my question, trying to understand how to reconcile the opposing archetypes of Leo and Aquarius, I started thinking about a Soul that may have tried to rebel against the consensus conditioning by creating something that would reflect his individuality, but maybe the Soul has gone overboard, thus suffering disillusionment and possibly trauma as a result. This would then create a rebellion against the feeling of being different and a repression of the need to shape destiny through the force of its will, as a distorted reaction to the need to objectify Leo’s creative intentions.

However, this sounds similar to a skipped steps scenario and, considering that a skipped steps scenario as well as a situation similar to that described above both imply that opposing archetypes are part of the Soul’s past, can we draw the conclusion that in a situation similar to that described above (ie Pluto, or the SN in a sign and house that correspond to opposing archetypes) some flip-flopping between the two extremes has occurred in the Soul’s past without however completely developing either?

All the best,

Serban
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Rad
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 17, 2011, 10:43 am »

Hi Serban,

"I would like to ask a question about the situation when Pluto is in a house and sign that correspond to opposing archetypes, ie Pluto in Libra in the 1st house, Pluto in Scorpio in the 2nd house etc. Is there any specific guidance regarding the understanding of the bottom line of such a signature?"

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We have discussed before in this mb. Type into the search engine the word paradoxes. It will then bring up the threads in which this topic has been discussed before. The core answer to your question correlates to a Soul that has created many paradoxes for itself, and why. And, of course, the evolutionary resolution to to understand the nature of those paradoxes, and to solve them. This is very different than the archetype of 'skipped steps'.

*****************************

God Bless, Rad

 
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Linda
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 17, 2011, 03:30 pm »

Hi Serban,

In addition to the search for 'paradoxes,' here is the link to a thread entitled 'Paradoxical Charts' in which I had asked a similar question: 

http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,80.msg898.html#msg898

In that thread an example chart was posted - for which Rad had given a detailed analysis.



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serban_p
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 18, 2011, 01:30 am »

Hi Rad, Linda,

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

All the best,

Serban
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serban_p
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 23, 2011, 05:59 pm »

Hi Rad, Linda,

I’ve been going over the paradox threads trying to understand what would be the reason behind a Soul creating such paradoxes.

To my understanding, the paradoxes lie in the need to evolve both the dynamics represented by Pluto’s sign as well as the dynamics represented by Pluto’s house using the same method, i.e. learning through counterpoint awareness (embracing the opposite dynamics and integrating them into the original dynamics, thus bringing about the evolution of the original dynamics).

So in trying to determine why such a situation would arise in the first place, I would like to ask if we should view both these processes (evolution of the dynamics represented by the sign and evolution of the dynamics represented by the house) as being of equal immediacy and magnitude or whether, conversely, we can interpret one of these processes as a sub-cycle within the larger cycle represented by the other process, with the sub-cycle being opposite from the larger cycle as a means to address a severe imbalance reached by the Soul in the process represented by the larger cycle? More specifically, could we say that the larger cycle, although still in progress, is taking a backseat to the sub-cycle as a means of addressing a severe imbalance in order to get back on evolutionary track?

On a more general note, but with regard to paradoxical charts as well, I would like to ask what is meant by the fact that in EA Pluto’s house is interpreted before the sign Pluto is in (I remember reading about this on the MB; however please correct me if I’m wrong).

All the best,

Serban


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Steve
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 23, 2011, 07:01 pm »

Hi Serban

I'd like to suggest that its simpler than the way you are framing it.

The root cause of everything is desire.  Souls create human forms for themselves to experience and work through their desires.

In most cases the cause of paradox charts is going to boil down to having conflicting desires within the Soul itself, and by extension, in the human form.  I refer to it as an intense desire to want it to be summer and winter, or day and night, or male and female, or married and single, at the same time.  Obviously in earth reality that is not going to occur.  And yet the desire for it to occur, in a paradox chart, exists.  When Pluto is involved it becomes compulsive. 

The Soul is trying to teach itself something by setting up this situation.  What the something is will be unique to each Soul.  But as general themes they can include (among many others) things like coming face to face with the inherent limits (Pluto) in the human form; learning to accept them and to develop strategies to deal with the desire for two simultaneous opposites that is impossible to fulfill since both can never simultaneously occur.  We can learn to experience one of the opposites some of the time and the others at other times - having to accept that this is as good as it can get in human form on Earth as far as experiencing simultaneous opposing desires

EA looks at the house position of any planet, not just Pluto, first.  Because the house energies are the core bottom line energy for life realms ruled by that house.  Whether or not their are planets in the house, everyone has a 3rd house or 8th house, etc. and those energies affect our human lives, planet or no planet.  The way EA looks at it, the sign on the house cusp, or the planets within the house, represent a coating or veneer over the house energy.  That is, anything related to the 1st house will always have an Aries energy.  If I have Sag on the 1st house cusp, it is Aries energy filtered through Sag - there is a defacto trine in that setup.  But what if I have Pisces on the 1st house?   Aries energy filtered through Pisces is not an easy fit.  Why would a Soul set that situation up for itself?

If I have Pluto in Sag in the 3rd house, to give an example you are asking about, I have a defacto Pluto in Gemini, and yet the opposing Sag energies are also part of the filter.  That is a defacto opposition.  So we have to look at what we know about the nature of oppositions - the why behind them.  We are dealing with Libra-like stuff here, opposition - duality and the need to learn to synthesize opposites, to move from the extremes of swinging from one pole to the other, to develop moderation and cohesiveness (balance), to understand the value that both sides of that seeming paradox add to the process.  Libra - to learn to listen deeply to the gifts both opposites bring to the totality - the relativity of all things on one hand - Gemini - and seeing from the top down, the whole, the inherent simplicity behind the apparent diversity - Sag.

Another point Jeffrey used to teach, especially relevant for outer planets, is that the sign of the planet is a generational signature.  Since the nature of separating desires is to individuate ourselves from the generation, to discover our own uniqueness, the house the planet is in is how we individuate the generational impulse.   Thus that is analyzed before the generational impulse (the sign Pluto is in) because that is how I am going to actualize, manifest that generational impulse.  That is also the intent of the Pluto Polarity point, to individuate myself from the generational impulse.

We have to observe our tendency to make these things overly complex.  The underlying principles are very simple.  They don't need to be run through the left brain grinder very much.  They key is to let the intuition grasp in an instant the essence of an EA principle - to know without knowing how I know.  Then to deal with the principles in a top down way instead of a bottom up way.  Grasp the simplicity, the essence, of the principle.  Then learning to apply the simple principle to the myriad complexity of manifest diversity, keeping the simplicity in mind as we do so, to not get lost in the details.  The left brain will never feel it has ingested enough detail, correctness, no matter how much is taken in.  At a certain point one has to learn to say "enough" and just apply what has already been taken in.   Interestingly enough, the deeper insights and realizations come from applying what has been taken in rather than being overly concerned with getting every nuance just right before trying at all.  Part of this earth reality really is trial and error - not only will we make mistakes (that are not really mistakes) along the way, there is no way to avoid doing do.  We get better at it by putting what we are learning to work and skinning our knees at times in the process, not by trying to absorb every nuance before trying. 

Many people feel they don't want to lead anyone astray and so want to perfect it before trying.  To which I say, anyone that is coming to any of us, on the Soul level knows what they are getting into, including coming to someone who is not a total master and may not be 99.93% accurate.   The value is in the effort, and the purity of intention is what really matters, more than conveying every last detail 100% accurately to a client.  We evolve as we practice.
take care
Steve
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 23, 2011, 08:01 pm »


Hi.. I'd like to add to these thoughts that paradoxes in the psyche are a crucible for growth. I see Pluto's placment in Libra in the first house for example as an inherent conflict between say, war and peace, or the expression of personal will - vs- cooperation, self -vs-others. This soul has expereicend extremties of both and holds that external conflict now, internally... so as to find a third way... an integration.

A way to frame a paradoxical signature in a chart is to understand that what might normally be experienced as an external conflict is internalized in the makeup of the psyche or soul (especially when it is Pluto) depending upon what the signature is. Another example might be Pluto in Cancer in the 10th...

Most of us expereice the duality or polarity of male-ness and female-ness, we see it all around us and engage in melding these polar opposites often by entering into relationship with them...being parented by them 9 Mother and Father) or by inner exploration of our own (anima/animus).. but bringing a resolution to the intrinsic polarity of male and female may simply not be a pressing evolutionary intention. BUT  the person with this signature as a paradox already has that conflict internalized..it then becomes a personal need..an evolutionary drive to reconcile something about the opposite archeypes within oneself.
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 23, 2011, 08:22 pm »

PS... many Libra ascendant charts are pardoxical charts.. ever wonder why? Libra itself being an archetype of extremity, polarity, splitting to find balance, internal conflict. In the cataorgory of "you can't make this s**t up" after I posted the previous post...I opened my charts for tommorrows clients...one of them a Pluto in Libra smack dab on the ascendant.. nodal axis SN Aq in the 5th...NN in Leo in 11th ;-)
 
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Dhyana
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 24, 2011, 12:56 am »

I am so very happy this thread here is moving along. 3 out of the last 5  charts I have looked at --YEP, you guessed it, PARADOXICAL, 2 of those having Nodes in H3/Sag H9/Gemini

I am begining to FEEL what this is, but not yet quite being able to articulate it into words, so I really am appreciating  this thread.

I was just thinking right before I checked in over here, "Gee maybe I can ask if we as a group can do a paradoxical chart", to get a hands on practice with it."   
Would this be possible? If so, I have one we could work with -- a man from The Netherlands chart, in the spiritual state, Pluto in Libra in House 1 opposing Jupiter, Moon, & Mars in 7 Aries. Or someone else can post any paradoxical chart? What ever works.

Just an idea.

Dhyana
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2011, 01:21 am by Dhyana » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 24, 2011, 12:58 am »

Steve, everything you wrote was really insightful! I especially appreciate what you say about "just applying what you know".

What I have always known, but didn't know it until now, is that there is also such a thing as a "quincunx chart" or a "square chart" or a "trine chart". A quincunx chart for example would manifest as a Virgo rising (the other being Scorpio). Virgo is naturally inconjunct Aries.

Really clarifying to see the chart in such a way. In the same way that a paradoxical chart is resolved by way of Libra's ability to integrate opposites, a quincunx chart is resolved by way of Virgo's ability to take it one step at a time/make necessary adjustments. This is clear for all hosue sign placements in such a chart.
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Dhyana
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 24, 2011, 01:10 am »

Steve,

This that you wrote -  really made the LIGHTBULB go on! 

STEVE WRITES: "...the relativity of all things on one hand - Gemini - and seeing from the top down, the whole, the inherent simplicity behind the apparent diversity - Sag."


Thanks!

Dhyana
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Dhyana
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 24, 2011, 01:16 am »

Ari,

Thanks for what you just wrote as well because it really gives a good foundation to go in with. Knowing what the Inconjunct energy is like, the (libra-like?) Opposition aspect energy is like, the Square energy is like etc etc.

Are there other examples other than the few you mentioned above? Or maybe elaborate a bit on those you did mention?

Thanks.
Love,
Dhyana
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2011, 01:23 am by Dhyana » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 24, 2011, 01:28 am »

I also appreciate everyone's insights into this topic.  Steve, I'd like to copy and frame your last post - it was that good!

I have a paradoxical chart with a Libran Ascendant, and in asking "WHY" do I have this chart, what I've learned to do is to look for repeating themes.  Some of these repeating themes are:  

*  An "opposition" type chart with a sensitivity to contrasting viewpoints or possibilities;  deep awareness of conflicts, of definite polarities (along the lines that Ari mentioned above).
*  Skipped steps involving Pluto and the Nodes.
*  Resolution Node is the South Node in the 7th house, ruled by Venus!
*  Sun opposite Moon
*  Mars opposite Ascendant (wide)
*  Pluto trines Venus
*  Pluto trines Mars
*  Transiting-Pluto presently conjunct Venus.

Flip-flopping between the 1st and 7th meant that I desired BOTH complete freedom as well as a committed relationship!  And both areas had not been completely developed in the past.  Consistently developing the Resolution Node (the SN ruled by Venus) has been almost miraculous:  I finally "get it."  For me, the purpose of having a paradoxical chart was to draw key relationships to me in this lifetime as opportunities for growth and understanding.  There has been a persistent movement for balance.

Dhyana, I'd be very interested in working on that paradoxical chart you mentioned.
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Linda
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 24, 2011, 01:35 am »

Along with examining the "bottom-line" Pluto dynamics, I would say that looking at Venus and Mars and aspects thereto, as well as the 1st/7th houses would be vital in understanding a "paradoxical chart."
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serban_p
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 24, 2011, 09:44 am »

Thank you everybody for your thoughts.

Steve, your insights have been -as usual- amazing and tremendously helpful.

All the best,

Serban
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