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serban_p
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« on: Feb 02, 2011, 02:36 AM »

Hello everybody,

I would like to ask some clarification questions regarding a Soul’s evolution prior to the present lifetime.

If natal Pluto is in a particular position (by house and sign), it means that in the recent evolutionary past, Pluto (the Soul) has evolved from a previous position (i.e. a previous bottom-line for the desire nature of the Soul) that came before the current life’s position. So this means that before the current lifetime, Pluto was in this previous position (it does not matter what is the incremental step between the previous position and the current one, in terms of degrees/minutes/how far along in a house Pluto is, although it would be nice to be able to determine it) and the Soul has managed to embrace the polarity point of that position, thus bringing about the evolution of the previous Pluto position into the natal position for the current lifetime. Is this correct?

So I was wondering whether it would be correct to say that the subconscious security patterns associated with the current life placement of Pluto are triggered by the Soul’s desire to secure and maintain this hard-won position (which was evolved into by embracing the polarity point of the position that came before it). In other words, is it correct to say that the resistance to the evolutionary impulse is brought about by the Soul’s failure to acknowledge that as soon as the previous position is evolved into the current-life natal position, this requires the same sort of work all over again (i.e. embracing the dynamics symbolized by the opposite position and integrating them into the natal position, causing it to evolve into a new one) so the separating desire for any natal position would translate as the Soul saying “this is as far as I go” ?

Maybe the resistance is fuelled by all the efforts that went into evolving from the previous position into the current one. In terms of the emotional security patterns associated with the natal position of Pluto, can we say that we are gravitating towards that something because it was very hard for us to succeed in arriving at that place and we refuse to acknowledge that what was once an evolutionary goal has now become a cause for stagnation, thus refusing to evolve?

That would mean that for each natal position of Pluto the separating desire would correlate to a desire to maintain that position, thus resulting in a distorted expression of the archetypes symbolized by that position. On the other hand, the desire to return to the Source would correlate to the dynamics represented by the polarity point of that natal position.

Furthermore, with respect to the phasal relationship between Mars and Pluto, does it relate to the evolution of the entire natal signature represented by Pluto, PPP, as well as the nodes and their rulers? If so, does this mean that until a full circle is completed (i.e. a balsamic conjunction correlating to the culmination of those dynamics), the birth chart from one life to another would have the elements of the karmic signature (Pluto, PPP as well as the nodes and their rulers) in the same houses and signs?

All the best,

Serban

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Steve
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 02, 2011, 07:17 AM »

Hi Serban

From my understanding, basically just about everything you said is accurate.  

The underlying principle in all biological forms is to survive intact in the present form - that instinct is pre-wired.  
And we all have a need to feel secure.  What makes us feel secure is what we already know.  Thus we develop a self-image (Moon) of seeing "me" as a person who is and does whatever makes me feel secure.  Over lives those repeated moons become the basis of the south node.  

The evolutionary impulse pulls us to the polarity - 180 degrees away from what makes us feel secure.  This triggers our survival instincts - we don't feel safe 180 degrees away from what makes us feel secure, thus we resist.

The only thing I would add to what you said is I don't feel the process is always linear from life to life.  "Completing" 8th house Pluto, as from my chart would seem to be what this life is about for me, doesn't mean I necessarily start the next with Pluto at 0 degrees and 5 minutes into the 9th house.  Astrology is symbolic not literal.  There are many placements that can create the Soul's desired lessons.  For 8th house Pluto, for example, an 8th house south node, or a scorpio stelium, etc.   In my chart, even in this life I have Sag rising along with a very late 8th house Pluto.  This I feel is seeding my Soul's long term evolutionary intentions.

Everything always comes down to the Soul's dual desire nature.  At a bottom line level that manifests as
1) the desire to survive and feel secure, which as you said can ultimately lead to stagnation, and
2) the offsetting urge or instinct to grow and evolve - the impulse to the polarity

The one points to the past, the other to the future.  We live in the present, between those two impulses.  Most of us, until we change, keep compulsively and habitually repeating the past, BECAUSE we experience it as making us feel secure (even if the past is dysfunctional, it is what we know), even as we make occasional steps towards the future.

Everything comes down to free will/choice.  When a Soul starts consciously embracing the intended future, the evolutionary intentions, things can start changing rapidly.  That is because within itself that Soul gets off the fence and starts committing more deeply to one side of the dual desire nature.  The pull to the past still exists and it still finds itself at times operating from the past knowns.  But the center of gravity starts shifting, from free will decisions, and the results of these inner decisions become increasingly apparent in the person's outer life.  In other words, they progressively internalize and reduce resistance to the evolutionary intentions.
Steve
« Last Edit: Feb 02, 2011, 07:26 AM by Steve » Logged

ari moshe
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 02, 2011, 11:51 AM »

Hi Serban,

Quote
If natal Pluto is in a particular position (by house and sign), it means that in the recent evolutionary past, Pluto (the Soul) has evolved from a previous position (i.e. a previous bottom-line for the desire nature of the Soul) that came before the current life’s position. So this means that before the current lifetime, Pluto was in this previous position (it does not matter what is the incremental step between the previous position and the current one, in terms of degrees/minutes/how far along in a house Pluto is, although it would be nice to be able to determine it) and the Soul has managed to embrace the polarity point of that position, thus bringing about the evolution of the previous Pluto position into the natal position for the current lifetime. Is this correct?

That doesn't make sense to me. As I understand it, the natal position of Pluto correlates to the bottom line that has dictated all prior life times that are relevant to this one.

As Steve said, the accurrance of chart signatures from one life to another is not linear. The same archetypes can rearrange themselves in various ways.

I think within the context of a singular natal position of Pluto, the polarity point can be continually embraced to the extent the soul feels comfortable doing so. This is exemplified by the principal of evolutionary states.

Maybe Steve understood something that you said that I'm not getting. Thanks as always for posting- I've been learning a lot from your questions Serban.
God bless,
am
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Steve
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 02, 2011, 04:22 PM »

Well, I should have said a bit more about the statement

Quote
the Soul has managed to embrace the polarity point of that position, thus bringing about the evolution of the previous Pluto position into the natal position for the current lifetime.

I would phrase that more like

Quote
to the degree the Soul managed to embrace the polarity point of that Pluto position, it brought about some evolution of the previous Pluto position, leading to the natal position of the current lifetime

No soul is totally embracing the Pluto polarity in a lifetime.  Even Jesus said something along the line of "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."  

To me that is because the aspirations of the Soul, being the long term view, go far beyond what any human being can possibly embrace in a single lifetime.   The more you evolve the more the Soul wants to evolve.  It is NEVER satisfied with what has been accomplished as there is always more.  A mentor from my younger days used to describe this as "the itch you can't scratch".  That is the desire nature of the Soul.

And, Ari,
Quote
the natal position of Pluto correlates to the bottom line that has dictated all prior life times that are relevant to this one.
I feel it correlates to the bottom line DESIRES, which are the root cause of everything else.   And just as we humans have desire natures that shift around from time to time, I feel something similar occurs within the Soul too, although it seems there is always an underlying bottom line.  So an emphasis could be on this in one lifetime and that in another lifetime.  Yet the bottom bottom line would be the same.

Serban, my point is its not like one achieves the aims of one life and then the Pluto point gets to move.  The whole thing is a living, dynamic, moment by moment process. And free choice is the engine that can move us forward, or not. That is the whole point of following transits and progressions - they represent the natural unfolding of the timing of the evolutionary intentions for that lifetime.  In this dimension they occur over time, not all at once. So although we have the same natal Pluto placement for a whole lifetime, within that placement, it evolves over time, through experiences and choices.

We can only, at best, ever partially embrace anything new.  By the time we fully embrace it, it's become what now makes us feel secure, which is the first sign that you are guaranteed that sooner or later it will be taken away, to be replaced with something else we resist that gradually becomes our new norm.  That cycle goes on and on and on.  The only thing we can truly count on for consistent security is within us.   Everything else is temporary.  Embracing that is not easy.  But that IS our reality.
Steve
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serban_p
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 03, 2011, 08:40 AM »

Hi Steve, Ari,

I would like to ask another question about the correlation between the gradual exhaustion of separating desires and the evolutionary journey. Is it correct to say that not all Souls must exhaust the same separating desires at some point or another, but rather each Soul has its own evolutionary journey towards the Source (i.e. it must exhaust the separating desires that emanate from that Soul, which are only a fraction of the totality of separating desires that can be conceived)?

That would mean that Souls take different routes at arriving at the same place and there is no predetermined “checklist” of separating desires that must be exhausted, but rather what needs to be exhausted is whatever emanates from the Soul as a result of the continuous interaction between the desire to return and the desire to maintain separateness. Accordingly, the interplay between these two conflicting desires, although representing an underlying theme for all Souls, is manifested differently by each Soul throughout its evolutionary journey based on the desires that lead to actions which in turn lead to results that in turn lead to another cycle of desires-actions-results and so on.

What confuses me is the fact that I am not sure if a Soul must exhaust all the archetypes to the same extent (in whatever order), i.e. if it experiences at some point or another the full range of distorted expressions of that archetype so as to embrace their polarities and experience the full range of natural expressions of that archetype. Is this the case or, conversely, it is possible for some archetypes to be experienced in a “lighter” form because the Soul does not get so caught up in all the separating desires represented by the archetype’s distorted expressions?

What I am basically asking is: do we all experience the same separating desires at some point or another, or is it possible that some separating desires never emanate from some Souls in the first place hence no need to exhaust them?

All the best,

Serban

P.S. Thank you Steve for pointing out yet again the limitations inherent in my left brain approach to things. Although I fear this will not be the last instance when I do this, I am hoping that with time I will be able to evolve to a less linear approach.

P.P.S. Ari, the funny thing is that when I wrote my post, I specifically had in mind what you wrote on the “Guidance for determining phasal relationship” thread. “If you are walking into a room right now, what does this imply? It implies that prior to this walking into the room, you were just outside of the room. Now, let’s say you are walking out of a room right now. What does this imply? It implies that prior to your walking out of the room you were inside of the room”. I thought of the bottom line desire in the same terms: if the bottom line is this, it means that at some previous time, it was the one that came before this one and which evolved into the current one.

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Steve
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 03, 2011, 09:32 AM »

Hi Serban

It's really very simple.

Diversity is the fundamental principle in our reality.  Each human, cat, snowflake, grain of sand on beach, plant, microbe, is completely unique.  Each soul has its own interests and orientations. The range of separating desires is nearly infinite.   There is no checklist of separating desires through which every Soul must pass.  Through the principle of diversity we can explore and express as we please. (There are natural laws however, with natural consequences to our choices)

It comes down to, we do what we want to until we no longer want to. A Soul reaches a point in its journey where what it no longer wants is to chase the delusions and illusions we call separating desires.  At that point it starts concentrating on God. Until then it doesn't.  Its due to a change in what that Soul desires, not based on any kind of "should be's".
Steve
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serban_p
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 03, 2011, 11:36 AM »

Hi Steve,

Thank you for clearing that up..it makes all the sense in the world.

Also in the context of a Soul's past life progress, I would like to ask what is meant by the fact that Pluto in an angular house denotes that an evolutionary cycle has come to a close and a new evolutionary cycle is underway. More specifically, what does this new evolutionary cycle refer to (a transition between evolutionary (sub-) states / the fact that dynamics that have been worked on extensively have come to a culmination in the recent evolutionary past / something else?)

Thank you once again,

Serban
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Steve
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 04, 2011, 05:21 PM »

Thank you for clearing that up..it makes all the sense in the world.

Also in the context of a Soul's past life progress, I would like to ask what is meant by the fact that Pluto in an angular house denotes that an evolutionary cycle has come to a close and a new evolutionary cycle is underway. More specifically, what does this new evolutionary cycle refer to (a transition between evolutionary (sub-) states / the fact that dynamics that have been worked on extensively have come to a culmination in the recent evolutionary past / something else?)

Its just the next act in the unfolding evolutionary journey.  All things end at some point, and new things arise that ultimately replace them.  The bottom line on everything is still desire.  At some point we are dealing with the desire nature of that which created us.
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adina
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 05, 2011, 07:05 AM »

To add to what Steve said, in its simplest form what you’re asking refers to the qualities (ways of behavior) of the houses: cardinal (the angular houses—1st, 4th, 7th and 10th), fixed (2nd, 5th, 8th and 11th), and mutable (3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th). In the case of the angular houses, of course, it is to initiate change. They reveal what our soul has determined needs to come to closure before we start something new. Within that new beginning, a natural ending to something is implied. The fixed quality allows us to stabilize our ways of being and thinking to give us a sense of security, and the mutable reflects our natural need to adapt and change at different points in our evolutionary journey.

These qualities then reflect how the four elements of fire (1st, 5th and 9th houses), earth (2nd, 6th and 10th houses), air (3rd, 7th and 11th houses), and water (4th, 8th and 12th houses) are expressed.
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serban_p
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 31, 2011, 11:42 AM »

Hi Steve,

I've been going over what you wrote and I would like to ask an additional question.

The only thing I would add to what you said is I don't feel the process is always linear from life to life.

Although the temptation for me to think in linear terms is definitely there (SN in 3rd house, notwithstanding the fact that the same SN is also in Sagittarius) and it's something that I have to constantly watch out for, I can't help but ask this: with respect to phases and aspects, should we expect a given planetary pair (Pluto/Saturn, Mars/Venus etc.) to evolve in a linear manner from one lifetime to another, i.e. failure to deal with a crescent square in a lifetime would result in the next lifetime in a situation where those two planets are again in a crescent square, but with a tighter orb this time (indicative of the increased pressure to deal with that aspect), whereas successfully addressing the issues represented by that square would correlate to those planets being in a first quarter square in the immediate lifetime?

In this context, I was wondering whether anybody is aware of the birth-charts of the same Soul in successive lives (I realize this is asking too much and it's a long shot) so that we may track the evolution from one lifetime to another.

All the best,

Serban


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Steve
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 31, 2011, 06:26 PM »

Hi Serban

 On this message board we've had detailed discussion on the charts of Abraham Lincoln, his next life as reported by Yogananda as Charles Lindbergh, and what Rad reports as the same Soul's next life, Barack Obama.  If you use this site's search box you can search for the earlier discussion on exactly what you are asking about.  The results are quite eye opening.

Steve


Hi Steve,

I've been going over what you wrote and I would like to ask an additional question.

The only thing I would add to what you said is I don't feel the process is always linear from life to life.

Although the temptation for me to think in linear terms is definitely there (SN in 3rd house, notwithstanding the fact that the same SN is also in Sagittarius) and it's something that I have to constantly watch out for, I can't help but ask this: with respect to phases and aspects, should we expect a given planetary pair (Pluto/Saturn, Mars/Venus etc.) to evolve in a linear manner from one lifetime to another, i.e. failure to deal with a crescent square in a lifetime would result in the next lifetime in a situation where those two planets are again in a crescent square, but with a tighter orb this time (indicative of the increased pressure to deal with that aspect), whereas successfully addressing the issues represented by that square would correlate to those planets being in a first quarter square in the immediate lifetime?

In this context, I was wondering whether anybody is aware of the birth-charts of the same Soul in successive lives (I realize this is asking too much and it's a long shot) so that we may track the evolution from one lifetime to another.

All the best,

Serban



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Rad
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 01, 2011, 08:59 AM »

Hi Serban,

 Here is a documented case of the same soul from one life to the very next.

God Bless, Rad


* same soul.JPG (97.34 KB, 888x784 - viewed 146 times.)

* samesoul.JPG (97.86 KB, 834x748 - viewed 129 times.)
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serban_p
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 04, 2011, 08:24 AM »

Hi Steve, Rad,

Thank you both for your answers. I’ve been looking at the birth-charts that you mentioned/provided in terms of phasal relationships between planets and would like to ask something about the Pluto-Saturn relationship in their birth-charts (I chose this planetary pair more or less randomly in order to illustrate my question).

I. Lincoln - Lindbergh

- Lincoln had Pluto at 13O37 Pisces and Saturn at 3O09 Sagittarius. Accordingly, if my calculations are correct, the phasal relationship between the two would be just under 260O(approaching a disseminating phase square).

- Lindbergh had Pluto at 16O47 Gemini and Saturn at 21O42 Capricorn. As such, the phasal relationship would be just under 215O (almost out of orb of the full phase inconjunct).

So considering that Lindbergh was Lincoln’s immediate reincarnation, how should we explain the gap between the disseminating phase square and the full phase inconjunct in terms of successive lives?

II. Rad’s example

- That Soul had Pluto at 7O47 Virgo in the life represented by the first chart provided by Rad and Saturn at 21O23 Capricorn, the phasal relationship between them being just under 134O (gibbous phase sesquisquare).

- The same Soul had Pluto at 0O26 Sagittarius and Saturn at 5O58 Aries in the lifetime represented by the second chart provided by Rad. Therefore, the phasal relationship would be just over 125O (first quarter trine).

Again, considering that we are talking about two successive lifetimes for the same Soul, how do we account for the gap between the gibbous sesquisquare and the first quarter trine?

Looking at both sets of birth-charts, I think it would be correct to say that the planets do not follow any given pattern as regards their placement in the birth-chart from one life to another, although they do reflect for any given life two things: (i) the start-line (corresponding to the total desire nature of the Soul coming into that life); and (ii) the evolutionary intentions.

Thus, the planets in the birth-chart will appear to be randomly arranged from one lifetime to another when compared with their placements in the previous lifetime, but in all cases they will reflect the total desire nature of the Soul at the beginning of any given lifetime. This would mean for example that if somebody has a close Mars/Venus balsamic conjunction in this lifetime and assuming he manages to do the work required by that aspect, this does not automatically mean that he will be born with a new phase conjunction in the next incarnation. Similarly, in Rad’s example, the same Soul had Pluto in the 8th house in the first chart and Pluto in the 6th in the second chart. 

So I was wondering what the possible explanation for this might be: (i) maybe the fact that the Soul chooses to work on different dynamics from one life-time to another; (ii) maybe the fact that although the Soul may be working on the same dynamics from one lifetime to another, these may be symbolized differently in the two successive birth-charts (for instance, a new phase Mars/Venus conjunction in a prior lifetime may be symbolized by Venus in Aries in the next lifetime); (iii) maybe a combination of (i), (ii) and other factors.

All the best,

Serban

P.S. Thank you Steve and Rad once again for taking the time to answer my questions.
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Rad
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 04, 2011, 08:40 AM »

Hi Serban,

 You are thinking in a total linear way which of course is the basis of your questions. As has been taught by JWG, and others on this mb, the various dynamics in one life, symbolized by the entire EA paradigm, are reflected in the next, and the next, is a variety of ways that are not linear. They are instead holistic and must be understood in this way. As simple example: in the charts I provided the person had Pluto in Virgo in one life that turned up as a 6th House Pluto in the next. The Venus in Pisces in the first life turned into a balsamic conjunction with Mars in Cancer and in opposition to Neptune. And so on and so forth. This is how we must learn to see and understand EA. It is not linear, it is holistic.

God Bless, Rad
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serban_p
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 04, 2011, 08:51 AM »

Hi Rad,

Thank you so much for that. It was really helpful for me to not only see the birth-charts for two consecutive lives of the same Soul, but also to have an example of how various aspects of the Soul's desire nature are reflected from one life to another.

All the best,

Serban
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