Aries Archetype Discussion

[Lucius]

I wish I had more energy for his chart analysis - I've been posted elsewhere here when I should be working against deadline with another project!  And I'll be gathering some thoughts for the Taurus thread.  But - first, I trust J.WolfGreen's assessment of his e.state & remember distinctly despairing of myself in reaction!

Aside from that though I don't feel that Gandhi was drawing people toward Source, 'god'dess' or what have you in his life - he wasn't teaching that per se - he was advocating a perspective that was very much a social issue and very much questioning consensus assumptions in his stances.  I compare him to J.WolfGreen (who is third spiritual) and Gandhi's dynamic and 'bottom line' isn't the same (in my opinion!).  Also, I was under the impression third state spiritual people usually are somewhat 'under the radar' in their lives - not so prominent and in conflict with the 'powers that be'.

Gandhi's an inspiration, just as Einstein, and Carl Jung - but I don't agree with e.state of third spiritual.

The evolutionary states are so difficult - or, at any rate,I find them difficult.  I wouldn't mind a thread of famous folks, their states and why they are in those states.
 

[jasonholley]

Hi Lucius,

Also, on the old MB J.WolfGreen mentioned that a person who is in reality 1st individuated could appear 1st stage spiritual, or have elements of that, and mentioned for example, that said person might have a balsamic sun/moon phase - of course, this could apply to any stage. Gandhi does have a waning sun/moon cycle. His mars/venus is balsamic conjunction - right? Having a brain freeze - the slower moving planet is the one 'applied' to - and Mars is slower than Venus(?). 

Yes Gandhi has a balsamic Venus/Mars -- and particularly remarkable as it is within two degrees and is conjunct with the PPP.  Since Gandhi certainly seems to have followed his evolutionary intent, it makes sense to me that we would experience that balsamic, culminating, spiritual/releasing quality in him.

The Venus/Mars balsamic conjunction also says to me that he was working out a lot of loose ends (balsamic) with his bizarre sexual experiments and practices (Scorpio) to further discover and know himself (1st house).  And that these were in some way primary in his evolutionary journey (PPP).

Jason
 

[Linda]

I trust J.WolfGreen's assessment of his e.state & remember distinctly despairing of myself in reaction!

Hi Lucius,

I must have missed this.  In what evolutionary state did JWG place Gandhi?

Thanks.

[Lucius]

There was a discussion (apparently not on the archived forum) about Gandhi - & either this same post or another I recall being surprised at the assessment of his state.  I'm not so much now.  Anyway, he was/is considered third individuated  (I wish the post was around to reread because I could have not understood - I remember being not the only one initially surprised).

  So, I just wanted to add that I don't think his views of Jewish people during the holocaust was indicative of third spiritual, either.  I feel that he, ironically, was having the attitude of 'my way or the highway' by saying they should have willingly martyred themselves.  It doesn't seem just 'immature' to me, but frankly disgusting.  I think a person in the third spiritual state would be expressing compassion with their suffering & reality versus saying 'well, they could have done it this way..' i.e., 'my way', etc. 

[Linda]

After catching up on a brief history of Gandhi, I have come to the conclusion that he was in the Spiritual evolutionary condition, and possibly in the 3rd stage since his teachings have spread across the globe.

I have since changed my mind about this.

As a man he was fallible, that is for sure, and his chart shows this, but perhaps his Soul had a deeper mission to fulfill.  Certainly the idea of non-violent resistance has captured the attention of the whole world.  Was the evolutionary message coming from a higher place? (Uranus square Neptune)  The best I can say about him is that he had the opportunity to rise above/purify his earlier attitudes - perhaps through the NN Mercury Virgo 11th, Neptune/Aries/6th, and the asteroids in the 6th house.  However, it is obvious that these same archetypes had been abused earlier on.  He humiliated himself a lot in his later years.  Bear in mind the cultural conditionings of his time, the gross inequalities of the caste system and his patriarchally-based Hindu religion.

I wasn't aware of what Gandhi said about Jewish people during the holocaust, and I agree with you Lucius, if that is true, it is disgusting - and he could in no way be a 3rd state spiritual soul.  The prominence of his position could have attracted people saying nasty things behind his back (Pluto 7th), and no wonder, there is evidence that he said some pretty horrible things.

I just spoke to an old friend of mind whose mother actually encountered Gandhi in the early 20's, just after WWI, at London University, when he was emerging as a rather virulent activist.  She didn't admire him.  He finally hit on the idea of peaceful resistance and that took off like a rocket.

There had been so much going on with the British Raj - he was a protester - and became an international figure - the holy man - which these days could be eyed with the greatest suspicion and cynicism.  Obviously his good parts were glorified out of all proportion.

The skipped steps situation is indicated by SN Mercury Libra 12th (extremes) interfacing with that lifetime’s Mercury Scorpio 1st, and the NN Mercury Virgo 11th (liberation and purification).  There is also a connection to SN Saturn and SN Pluto in the 3rd house.  This could indicate the reasons for the bad rap due to rash statements made throughout his life, and then having to learn humility through the NN Mercury Virgo 11th to purify that area.

[ari moshe]

Hi all,

Reflecting on this over the past weekend I feel that there are many aspects of his life that point to first stage spiritual, and it seems to have progressed towards the end of that stage; and possibly already in the second stage of the spiritual state.

Here is a famous statement from him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtWr04MBGYI This clearly expresses his spiritual integrity and earnest commitment to Truth, God. Clearly outside of the individuated state. The poetry and devotional quality of his words bespeak a spiritual authority and inner knowing. This is beyond the beginning of the first stage spiritual.

I want to point out too that he never tried to put himself in any kind of idealized perfection. As already said here, the projections have come from everyone else! Furthermore, while I'm not suggestiong Gandhi is 3rd stage spiritual, even souls in third stage spiritual do make mistakes.

Here is a quote I found online (source not included for all these quotes: found on this site: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mohandas_gandhi.html#ixzz1Jf6j5BY6 )

"Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position." He made mistakes and was quick to acknowledge them. I could not find anywhere what further comments he may have made about the Jews in the holocaust AFTER his initial statements. With no further information about that, I am not quick to jump to any conclusion. He has also said the following:

"Confession of errors is like a broom which sweeps away the dirt and leaves the surface brighter and clearer. I feel stronger for confession."

and this...
"A principle is the expression of perfection, and as imperfect beings like us cannot practise perfection, we devise every moment limits of its compromise in practice."

His own life reflects that in every regard. Strong adherence to principal. This, in combination with the willingness to be wrong, to make mistakes, seems to denote well into the first stage spiritual or even second stage spiritual. Remember that the spiritual ego of the second stage spiritual does not imply corruption, it implies that the bar is raised for the soul. The arrogance of second stage may have manifested by pointing to his own truth (his principals) to the disregard of what other people's truth are as is appropriate for their actual reality. This may be a version of the finger pointing to self. I do not see any evidence that suggests he was definitely not a second stage spiritual soul.

Also, he was not across the board anti violence, he did recognize the reality of soul's being at different levels. "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

However! The fact of using the word impotence implies a judgement on his part. In truth, there is no reason for him to use that word; each soul is at where they are. This is reflected in the wisdom of any soul that recognizes and appreciates what degree of awareness is possible and not possible for any soul according to the soul's current evolutionary condition. Again, to me this points to latter first stage or second stage spiritual.

From "Autobiography of a Yogi" Chapter 44 Mahatma Gandhi at Wardha.

Sri Yukteswar used to poke gentle fun at the commonly inadequate conceptions of renunciation.
"A beggar cannot renounce wealth," Master would say. "If a man laments: 'My business has failed; my wife has left me; I will renounce all and enter a monastery,' to what worldly sacrifice is he referring? He did not renounce wealth and love; they renounced him!"
Saints like Gandhi, on the other hand, have made not only tangible material sacrifices, but also the more difficult renunciation of selfish motive and private goal, merging their inmost being in the stream of humanity as a whole.

From Yogananda's words, he recognizes an honest authenticity in Gandhi. Definitely beyond even just the beginning of first stage spiritual. I wonder what it meant for yogananda to use the word "saint"? Perhaps Adina, Rose, Rad or someone who is close to the teachings of Yogananda can provide insight on this...

Gandhi's constant experimentation with applying the truth in his life and his personal purifications we know he has done on him self through out his life I feel point to a soul who has definitely been moving through the spiritual state, possibly to the beginning of second stage spiritual.
Ari Moshe

[jasonholley]

Hi Ari,

I'm glad you took some time for more consideration and appreciate your reflections very much.  

Reflecting on this over the past weekend I feel that there are many aspects of his life that point to first stage spiritual, and it seems to have progressed towards the end of that stage; and possibly already in the second stage of the spiritual state.

I have to say that I am similarly persuaded having had some more time too.  In addition to what you have offered in this message which I think does substantiate a greater familiarity and authority around spiritual principles, I also thought about other public figures who have been defined on this mb and particularly I thought of Barack Obama, who has been defined as being in very early 1st stage spiritual.  Given that benchmark, it seems obvious that Gandhi had considerably more spiritual development under his belt than does Obama and so advanced 1st or somewhere in 2nd (perhaps just prior to or following the "full of oneself" moment) begins to make more sense to me.

Also I notice that it is his sharp/harsh and seemingly self-absorbed comments from time to time that are often the source of our considerations of earlier stages for him, and that makes me think we may be being overly-influenced by his skipped step 1st house Mercury in Scorpio (harsh communications with little apparent empathy or consideration of other perspectives); as has often been noted a person can appear lesser-evolved when they are working out of the skipped step.

Finally, while there are aspects of his life that clearly operated according to the individuated state, as has been pointed out earlier states are often recapitulated briefly as a person “arrives” at their actual state in this lifetime.

Considering that context, it does begin to seem that he is likely more advanced in the spiritual stages.   Thank you again for your reflections Ari – very helpful!

Jason

[Linda]

Hi Ari and Jason,

Thank you both for your good analysis of Gandhi's chart.

After reflecting on the evolutionary condition of Gandhi for a couple of days, and after reading your posts, I am flip flopping from 3rd stage Individuated to 2nd stage Spiritual.

Gandhi was a lawyer and political activist, who was the first leader to apply the principle of non-violence in the political field on a large scale when he lead the Indian revolt against the British.  He envisioned a world where government, police and armies were non-violent, however, he was not the originator of the principle of non-violence.

In a post-war interview, he said:  ".......the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife."  Taking the philosophy of non-violence to this extreme suggests either a state of paradoxical delusion, or incredible faith.  This attitude could correlate to the over-emphasis of the Aries archetype in the chart (pushing for peace) highlighted by the full-phase opposition to Pluto.

It was necessary that he purify himself (Neptune Aries 6th) through self-humiliation/crisis/control, so that he could fulfill his purpose in the world (NN Neptune 10th, NN Leo 10th).  Mars exactly inconjuncts Neptune, and Virgo/Mercury (skipped steps) rules the 12th house.  

My question is, was his cause "spiritual" or "political" - or was there no separation between the two?

His natal Neptune 6th t-squares SN Neptune and NN Neptune.  He is coming from SN Aquarius 4th and SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (rebellion, individuation, liberation).  Mercury t-squares the Nodes, resolution node NN Leo 10th (political leader)........and this conjuncts the NN Neptune.

His chart is paradoxical, and the paradox is highlighted by Mars and Neptune, the relationship between the self and others, or the self and God.

[ari moshe]

Hi Linda,

My question is, was his cause "spiritual" or "political" - or was there no separation between the two?

Did you listen to the youtube clip I posted on him talking about his spiritual ideals? He actually addressed that question. What specifically do you feel about him would point to the possibility of third stage individuated?

His natal Neptune 6th t-squares SN Neptune and NN Neptune.  He is coming from SN Aquarius 4th and SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (rebellion, individuation, liberation).

It doesn't square its own nodes. It does square the sn's of Pluto and Saturn in the 3rd and the nn's of Saturn Pluto and Jupiter in the 9th. This definitely points to the confusion between actual reality as it interfaces with his own beliefs and grand ideals of perfection (Neptune 6th). Integrating through his own natal Pluto and Jupiter in the 7th, the evolutionary lesson was understanding other people's actual reality for what it is, as opposed to a formula. And as you and Jason pointed out, his own Mercury in Scorpio in the 1st squaring the nodes. That Mercury is also in a gibbous phase with Pluto - his special sense of purpose linked to communication has also been a form of humiliation by way of being overly harsh and polarized in his relationships. This would DEFINITELY have manifested intensely in his personal relationships. Something worthwhile to look into.
Here's an article that breifly touches upon his relationship with his wife: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4374920

I'd like to give a shout out to any moderator or someone who feels they can offer some guidance or perspective for this investigation.

[Linda]

My question is, was his cause "spiritual" or "political" - or was there no separation between the two?

Did you listen to the youtube clip I posted on him talking about his spiritual ideals? He actually addressed that question.

Hi Ari,

Yes, I listened to the YouTube clip, and, to the Western mind, those were spiritual ideals that appeared to be expressed.  Would not most of the Indian population express the same sentiments?  He was treated like a spiritual leader in the ashram.  Was it a spiritual ashram where meditation took place, or was it more like an office where political strategies were proposed?  He tried to channel the devotion of women into the cause that he stood for.  As he wrote to Mira, "You will truly serve me by truly serving the cause."  This sounds like a political cause taking place in a political establishment.

His natal Neptune 6th t-squares SN Neptune and NN Neptune.  He is coming from SN Aquarius 4th and SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (rebellion, individuation, liberation).

It doesn't square its own nodes.

An error on my part.  

It [Neptune 6th] does square the sn's of Pluto and Saturn in the 3rd and the nn's of Saturn Pluto and Jupiter in the 9th. This definitely points to the confusion between actual reality as it interfaces with his own beliefs and grand ideals of perfection (Neptune 6th).

This is most enlightening.  In addition to the skipped steps around communication, he had to address any confusion, deception, delusion, unreality, ambiguity or resistance on his part in his thoughts and teachings, by arriving at the natural truth.

Pluto squaring SN Neptune Aquarius 4th (last phase, using a general orb of 10 deg) can mean transformation/liberation from a confused self-image, dependencies in relationships, resulting in difficult cataclysmic change.  

Other difficult aspects to Pluto:  Venus/Mars opposite Pluto;  Moon square Pluto;  Moon square Venus/Mars.......all point to re-identification of his self-image in relationships.

Integrating through his own natal Pluto and Jupiter in the 7th, the evolutionary lesson was understanding other people's actual reality for what it is, as opposed to a formula.

Jupiter conjunct Pluto (new phase) describes teachings around peace, harmony, natural law, by taking a new approach or direction, ie incorporating the feminine into his teachings (9th house Cancer).  

And as you and Jason pointed out, his own Mercury in Scorpio in the 1st squaring the nodes. That Mercury is also in a gibbous phase with Pluto - his special sense of purpose linked to communication has also been a form of humiliation by way of being overly harsh and polarized in his relationships. This would DEFINITELY have manifested intensely in his personal relationships. Something worthwhile to look into.

His 3rd house is ruled by Jupiter;  his 9th house is ruled by Mercury;  and his 12th house is ruled by Mercury.  So from this, it is obvious that he had to recover the skipped steps with a particular message to teach.

Here's an article that briefly touches upon his relationship with his wife: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4374920

From this article, it appears that he aspired toward a self-sufficient relationship, and that could relate to the Individuated or Spiritual condition.

What specifically do you feel about him would point to the possibility of third stage individuated?

Well, I am respecting that JWG must have had good reason to place him in the 3rd stage Individuated.  My reasons are Gandhi was a political activist.  I think we would need to have more understanding of Indian culture and religion.  The Hindu religion can sound very "spiritual" to Westerners, but 75% of Indians are in the Consensus.  So how can one tell who is indeed truly spiritual and who is not?  

I'd like to give a shout out to any moderator or someone who feels they can offer some guidance or perspective for this investigation.

Me too.  Thanks.

[ari moshe]

Here's another good article I just found. Linda you made some really good points.
http://www.markshep.com/nonviolence/Myths.html

[Lucius]

I find that quote 'you will serve me'(...'by serving the cause')the first part - very intriguing - it almost makes me think of the inflation within the 2nd stage spiritual - but, again, I don't see his 'bottom line' being about Source - I see it being a political machination. First of all he references himself - not Source, second his 'cause' is a political one.  The fact that it is passive resistance doesn't mean it's 'spiritual' whatsoever - in the context of his (& unfortunately our) times it was revolutionary though.

I do see that he had major issues with listening to others and being respectful of others realities - he pushed himself relentlessly & perhaps because of the 'climate' of India he had projections upon him of being much more 'holy' than he was. Or maybe that, in that time, was how the Indians celebrated their heros/icons - it is a very different culture from the West. Mars/Venus balsamic in Scorpio opposition Pluto/Jupiter shows this is a very driven man - his north node in the 10th Leo and the ruler 12th Libra shows the need for his lessons - some of which he fulfilled admirably others, the personal aspects, I'm not so sure of.  He seemed ascetic to a degree that makes me feel he harbored deep guilt, & sado-masochistic issues over - leading me to feel he was 'making amends'.

I'm enjoying the conversation here.  I think that it would be good to recognize the differences in consensus realities as Linda points out, but, in general.  To also realize, for instance in the US, that the consensus is much more open & accepting of many things versus 50 years ago.  Someone meditating or doing yoga isn't necessarily an individuated or spiritual person  - for instance.  I know people who do these things - but, their goal isn't to unite with the sustainer of all life, but to relieve stress, relax or get in shape. Some one can talk about 'spiritual' things - but, what are their actions?  What's the structure of their life?  Their bottom line?

I think that he is a good example of the 'flowering' of individual genius that occurs in the 3rd individuated - a flowering that affects the consensus - a new way of looking at things, etc. He is inspirational and contributed greatly to the collective whatever his spiritual state was/is - I don't think anyone would argue that!

I suppose I could contemplate 2nd spiritual - but, overall, it simply doesn't make sense to me.And I think he was too active (visible, combative with the 'powers that be',etc.) and inflated to be 1st spiritual.

Thanks for the dialogue here! 

[ari moshe]

I find that quote 'you will serve me'(...'by serving the cause')the first part - very intriguing - it almost makes me think of the inflation within the 2nd stage spiritual - but, again, I don't see his 'bottom line' being about Source - I see it being a political machination. First of all he references himself - not Source, second his 'cause' is a political one.  The fact that it is passive resistance doesn't mean it's 'spiritual' whatsoever - in the context of his (& unfortunately our) times it was revolutionary though.

Lucius, the context of that statement needs to be taken into account. He was speaking to a woman in the Ashram who was infatuated with him. He found that to be a personal distraction and did not want to be worshiped or personally served in anyway. He sent this woman to do work outside of the ashram quite often as it was less uncomfortable for him. That statement was made to address her in particular - if you want to serve me, serve the cause.

Also just so its clear, he himself re-evaluated the use of the term "passive resistance". He concluded that satyagraha is an active path of absolutely adhering to the truth and one's rights and not turning to cowardice in the face of oppression. It was a philosophy that sought the best for both the oppressor and the oppressed. His strong adherence to a political movement whose basis was love for the oppressor was significant of his love for all humanity. I'm not excluding the possibility of third stage individuated, it just doesn't seem to me that his purpose was maximizing his own creative potential to the fullest extent. He never wanted attention, in fact always deflated attention from himself. He also seemed intensely devoted to God.

http://www.easwaran.org/gandhi-the-man-easwaran.html
page 130 of this book describes Gandhi's daily meditation practice.

[Lucius]

Thanks for the clarification on that quote, Ari!  Puts it into perspective.

[Linda]

Gandhi's own quote settles it for me:

Gandhi objected when people called him “a saint trying to be a politician.”

He said he was instead “a politician trying to be a saint.”

I agree with Gandhi’s own judgment on this.

Ari said:  He concluded that satyagraha is an active path of absolutely adhering to the truth and one's rights and not turning to cowardice in the face of oppression.

This is an amazing way to bring about change.  I do believe that this active path is extremely effective for it speaks to the oppressor's conscience, allows courageous action and passive resistance, and acknowledges the Truth.

It was not that Gandhi wanted attention for himself ... instead the Truth itself shone brightly ... and it was the Truth that actually brought about change.  He was pointing to the Truth, and not to himself.

In my opinion, Gandhi was being guided by a higher force.  

I will change his status now to end of 3rd stage Individuated (political activist) and beginning of 1st stage Spiritual (humility) due to his love for humanity and the Truth.  

His was a huge political task ... and it succeeded with Divine Grace.