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Author Topic: Aries Archetype Discussion  (Read 13459 times)
Linda
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« Reply #90 on: Apr 12, 2011, 04:54 PM »

Aries  -  1st house  -  Mars


Separation and anxiety         
of separation
Anger / Rage
Desires and
Desire nature
Identity
Freedom
Independence
War
Loner
Self
Violence
Sexual Instinct
Impatience (anger
at limitations)
Intolerance for Weakness         
Instinct
Primal
Spontaneous enthusiasm
Initiative
Initiation
Expression of will
Super human
Zarathustra
Special destiny
Narcissism
Self interest
Warrior
Pioneer
Sexual Violence
Destroyer
Paranoia


[P. Walsh, EA Archetypes]
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Linda
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« Reply #91 on: Apr 12, 2011, 04:56 PM »


Hi Ari and everyone,

Just adding a link to Deva's "Transits" thread (where we are working on Mars transits) which is relevant to the Aries Archetype discussion:

http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,425.msg7045.html#msg7045
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Tory
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« Reply #92 on: Apr 13, 2011, 02:48 AM »


Tory, if you feel you can provide some insight on any of the guidelines Linda has posted via your chart, please feel free to share your insights.


Thankyou Ari for kindly inviting me into the discussion, I'm a real beginner here and am still getting my head around my Venus (23°) Saturn conjunction, 4th house Aries, inconjunct Pluto (23°) 9th house Virgo, and inconjunct Neptune, 12th house Scorpio. Work in Progress!

Infinite blessings
Tory
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ari moshe
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« Reply #93 on: Apr 13, 2011, 11:21 AM »

Hi all,

I feel we have covered to a great degree the nature of Mars as the driving force that initiates all the activity of the individuated soul through time and space. In a state of distortion, this can express as the instinctive impulse to always being in a state of defense based on an inner anxiety of having separated from the wholeness. In a natural state, it is the innocent and moment to moment discovery of the unique unfolding path that is relevant to that soul.

Understanding Mars in this way naturally leads to an awareness to Pluto. Pluto is the underlying evolutionary purpose for being here, it symbolizes the soul itself; the immutable consciousness that is desirousness itself. In combination, the Mars Pluto interface points to the conscious individual will of the soul to jump head first into a path, a way of living, that enables a transmutation of consciousness.

In its shadow expression, the Mars Pluto interface can express as a perpetual fear of entrapment. Why? Mars is about absolute freedom and autonomy. However if that freedom is expressed as the perpetual need to resist the soul's destiny to return to Source, then the soul will perpetually resist evolution in order to protect its own existence. This of course is exemplified via the Aries Scorpio inconjunct.

In a conscious expression, the Mars Pluto interface points to the sheer willingness and single pointed will to "get on with it".

The phasal relationship between the two, as well as in a more general way, the interface between the 8th house, Scorpio and Pluto with the 1st house, Aries and Mars, will point out how the soul instigates it's own path towards or away from evolution. On its own, by itself.

So lets take a look at this Mars Pluto interface in this light. This is a good example as we are looking at a soul who I estimate to be towards the beginning of or in transition to early third stage spiritual (I'm curious what others estimate his ea state to be).

This will also exemplify the archetype of activism within the context of a spirituated consciousness.
Note: birth chart originally posted was naccurate. This seems to be a more correct time of birth



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2011, 10:56 AM by ari moshe » Logged
Lucius
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« Reply #94 on: Apr 13, 2011, 09:58 PM »

I recall reading on here (maybe old board,too) that Gandhi was third state individuated.  I was somewhat surprised, but I'm not that familiar with his life, either.
Someone such as Einstein seems the perfect example of Third Individuated - a flowering of his individual genius as a benefit to the whole, his general recognition of the relativity of religions - and social norms, etc. - so, I found viewing Gandhi's life in that perspective - a flowering of his individual gifts helpful in understanding the determination of his state. 

You can certainly see his stand for his own inner values and projecting that outward - i.e., 'taking a stand' with the Pluto placement.  This projection of his own reality that he stood up for created the conflicts he needed for his own growth/transformation - the Scorpio/1st. 
 The question, of course would be why, there are many scenarios one could see within the placements running the gamut of those archetypes.  I guess I'd need to feel firm in his evolutionary state & know more about his life.  Sometimes I wonder if there was any 'making amends' for his own past actions?  Also, any 'frog in the well' dynamic or issues with security that is linked with traumas deeply imbedded 'emotionally', PTSD, in his body and the need to recover his deeper core values to confront this.  I do see a controlling dynamic and remember reading something about how strict/controlling he could be, and demanding of others. 
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ari moshe
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« Reply #95 on: Apr 14, 2011, 10:53 AM »

Thanks for noticing that Jason.
Your right, I have corrected the original posting.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #96 on: Apr 14, 2011, 11:15 AM »

Lucius, I've been thinking about this, and it seems that Gandhi may have in fact evolved through various stages in one life. From his early life bio he seems to have started off this life at the very end of third stage individuated. He progressively became more committed to spiritual principals.

His chart implies a strong impulse for evolution for the life he lived in the fist place. This is exemplified by 4 angular aspects to Pluto, involving the angular houses. His life had the potential to be a directed, and evolutionarily focused lifetime, which in fact it was.

I think his strong adherence to a particular philosophy of the truth was very descriptive of second stage spiritual. He has made many naive and arrogant comments regarding the holocaust for example
Quote
"Hitler," Gandhi said, "killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."[60]
.

To me that reflects in a lack of wisdom and true understanding. It seems like the ego projecting its own ideas of the truth; affirming a truth that had already been decided upon. He did seem to eventually realize such mistakes:

Quote

However, Gandhi realised that this level of nonviolence required incredible faith and courage, which he believed everyone did not possess. He therefore advised that everyone need not keep to nonviolence, especially if it were used as a cover for cowardice: Gandhi guarded against attracting to his satyagraha movement those who feared to take up arms or felt themselves incapable of resistance. 'I do believe,' he wrote, 'that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.'"[61] 

It seems that his "experiments with truth" were just that. He made many what seems like second stage spiritual self righteous choices, and seems to have been humbled by them. Furthermore, his own faith was intensely tested when he lost so many ppl close to him in his life, including his wife who died in jail. He remained committed to the truth, turned to God ceaselessly. That continual desire for God in the midst of personal mistakes and personal loss I feel propelled immense evolution for this soul.
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Lucius
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« Reply #97 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:20 PM »

Thanks for your insights Ari & Jason - my brain was frizzle-frazzled last night & I didn't communicate very clearly.  When I look at his chart loads of information comes into my mind & I can't keep up with it & get exhausted trying to explain it.  Perhaps I'll give it a go again when I have more time.

I wanted to clarify that it was the old MB because I believe J.WolfGreen responded to the question himself.  Also, I don't think anyone has ever stated that anyone evolves through many states in one lifetime - in fact, it's been repeated that no one does.  What has been said is that a person may appear to be consensus, for example, and then 'awaken' later.  I do believe Gandhi was an example - being a lawyer (?), etc. then moving into his 'true' state & expression later, then there was Ramakrishna's disciple (I asked about this on an old board & JWG responded) he too (cannot remember his name) was rather cynical, skeptical then at some point he 'awakened' to his 'true' self (and evolutionary state) - I'd also say that J.WolfGreen himself fits into this paradigm (for lack of a better word) - he was going about his life, an atheist, etc. went to Vietnam, etc. and there had an 'awakening' that put him on an utterly different trajectory than he or anyone who knew/cared about him would guess.  I may be misunderstanding what you guys are saying - maybe you're saying what I'm saying - won't be the first time that's gone over my head!  Smiley

I've been thinking off/on about his chart & see guilt, sado-masochistic issues - perhaps a mixture of natural and unnatural guilt.  I think that he had some common issues with folks who are trying very hard to benefit the collective - the personal gets lost in the shuffle and those he claims to love are hurt - I think of (Ramakrishna?) who told a lady who was despairing at not having love for God - he asked her what she did love, I think she said her son, in which case Ramakrishna said that is your love for God - I've always liked that. 
I agree with much of what you say jasonholley. 
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Lucius
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« Reply #98 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:36 PM »

I wanted to add how much I respect your honesty, jasonholley in your feeling, thoughts & reactions.

This Pisces age has created, what I consider, the folly of the projection of a 'perfect' divinity upon the human animal.  Obviously, Jesus is the prime example - the uses of a scapegoat & that someone else (and outside of ourselves) will 'take us there'.  This is hand in hand with the patriarchal heirarchies which I have zero patience for anymore.  Yogananda isn't a more 'spiritual' being than any of us - he exemplified where we are all going - where we'll all arrive with our own paths, destinies and desires - he isn't 'better' than us - but, thank god'dess he's here to help (and he would be the first to acknowledge your existence as a spiritual being - just using him as an example)!  If you realize everything is naturally 'spiritual' what else is there?  The dualistic patriarchal nonsense is so ingrained from millenia of incarnations.  I guess all of us here are a tide against it, let's hope.

Anyway - I'll zip it for now.  Smiley
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ari moshe
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« Reply #99 on: Apr 15, 2011, 11:06 AM »

Thanks for your thoughts Jason,
Quote
My initial read of Gandhi is 3rd individuated transitioning to 1st spiritual (and that he made it).  I do remember learning somewhere in the JWG work that there are very rare cases where Souls accelerate through the stages in a single lifetime as you describe Ari.  Rad, Deva, or others, I am wondering if there are additional teachings or distinctions that Rad or Deva might share with us about how to recognize this, and perhaps also a more precise definition of how “rare” this is?  1 in a 1000?  1 in a million?  1 in a generation?

In the meantime, I will offer that I don’t think that was the case with Gandhi.  My sense is that there is a very strong idealization/projection around him that can lead one to over-estimate his evolutionary condition.  I would offer his 10th house moon in Leo, trine to Neptune as an indicator that he could attract such projections, as well as his North Node ruler the Sun being in the 12th house (attracts a lot of projection) and opposite Neptune (therefore as he steps into operationalizing his destiny through the Sun in Libra he attracts the opposition aspect’s projective dynamics from Neptune, which is prone to idealization and fantasy, creation of saviors; also particularly in his lifetime he attracted these from the shudras and low-caste (“servants” reference of 6th house Neptune), who designated him a great soul – Mahatma.  

That makes a lot of sense.

Quote
I don’t see him as having reached  2nd stage spiritual however as he never embraced the lMahatma title nor did he ever to my knowledge offer himself as the “answer” as the 2nd stage spirituals do when they are the peak of their hubris.  His extreme statements and arrogance about spiritual principles, such as the recommendations to the Jews to willingly enter the ovens, seem to me more like a relatively-spiritually-inexperienced 3rd stage individuated Soul trying to apply spiritual principles that it does not yet fully understand (the zeal of the convert).  His extreme statements and practices around sexuality and spirituality have a similar black-and-white quality and indications of being new to spiritual practice.  (Even though he wasn’t “new” in terms of the sexuality piece and it seems that finishing up a multiple-lifetimes cycle of sexual experimentation and investigation was completely central to his evolution (Mars/Venus balsamic conjunction in Scorpio conjunct PPP; he did seem sometimes seems to have approached the balsamic conjunction via the polarity phase Gibbous perfectionism though).   So, there is arrogance there but I think it is different from the arrogance of the 2nd spiritual.

I love your analysis of this! I've been thinking about this and it resonates strongly. I would still like to reflect further though. In all cases, even if you "only" evolved from third ind to first stage spiritual (and possibly well into first stage spiritual) that is still MORE than the average soul. Most soul's, it seems, only move a bit forward within their current ea state or the transition between one and the next.

Lucius I appreciate what you wrote here,
Quote
This Pisces age has created, what I consider, the folly of the projection of a 'perfect' divinity upon the human animal.  Obviously, Jesus is the prime example - the uses of a scapegoat & that someone else (and outside of ourselves) will 'take us there'.  This is hand in hand with the patriarchal heirarchies which I have zero patience for anymore.  Yogananda isn't a more 'spiritual' being than any of us - he exemplified where we are all going - where we'll all arrive with our own paths, destinies and desires - he isn't 'better' than us - but, thank god'dess he's here to help (and he would be the first to acknowledge your existence as a spiritual being - just using him as an example)!  If you realize everything is naturally 'spiritual' what else is there?  The dualistic patriarchal nonsense is so ingrained from millenia of incarnations.  I guess all of us here are a tide against it, let's hope.

I'd like to hear if anyone else has perspective on Gandhi's ea state. Once we feel clear about this we'll get started on the analysis.
Ari Moshe
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Lucius
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« Reply #100 on: Apr 15, 2011, 12:50 PM »

Quote from old MB:  "the key words in your question 'or so it seems'.......remember that those in third stage individuated can 'appear' as 'normal' from the point of view of the consensus complete with the costumes of the consensus state. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to skip from the consensus to the spiritual.......this is of course a violation of the natural law of evolution itself......perhaps the most astounding example that comes to my mind is the guru of yogananda.......yukestwar...until his midlife he was a 'householder' who did what everyone else appeared to do even married...i think he even had a kid........then look what happened......,Jeffrey"

I cannot find the post were it's stated Gandhi is 3rd Indi.- actually, I'm not sure if those are archived?  I think it would have been 2006 (?) when I posted about it, etc. - I remember the house/desk I was sitting at.

Also, on the old MB J.WolfGreen mentioned that a person who is in reality 1st individuated could appear 1st stage spiritual, or have elements of that, and mentioned for example, that said person might have a balsamic sun/moon phase - of course, this could apply to any stage. Gandhi does have a waning sun/moon cycle.
 His mars/venus is balsamic conjunction - right? Having a brain freeze - the slower moving planet is the one 'applied' to - and Mars is slower than Venus(?). 
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ari moshe
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« Reply #101 on: Apr 15, 2011, 01:33 PM »

Hi Lucius, all. Here's the entire context of that quote.
Quote

Hello Jeff 
Regarding evolutionary states:
Can the individual parts of ones consciousness/mode of operating be in
more than one evolutionary state at a time/relate to different levels; ie: for
some experiences or relationships you are in 3rd state individuated yet for
other experiences or relationships you are in 2nd state individuated or 1st.
state spiritual?
Would it be more likely that you would be able to move forward from one
evolutionary stage to another ie: 1st state individuated to second state
individuated; and more difficult to move from 3rd stage of one state to 1st
stage of the next ie: 3rd state consensus to 1st state individuated?
Thx! 
,rose,rosemarcus_astrolink@hotmail.com 
Re: evolutionary states,Sunday 26-Nov-2000 13:54:24,, 

Hi Rose 
a very good question. the answer is no. this is why it is so important to
understand planetary phases and how different psychological archetypes
as corrlelated to the planetary phases i.e. mars/ venus can be in different
states of evolution relative to the phase itself. so in essence any given soul
can be in whatever evolutionry condition i.e. first stage individuated yet
the various planetary phases will be different relative to their own
evolution within the CONTEXT of the actual evolutionary stage that the
person is in.  This question refers to what maurice asked in the question before yours.
and this is exactly why a person say in the first stage individuated could
'appear' to manifest something that seemed like a first stage
spiritual.........i.e. maybe their sun and moon are balsamic in this life
relative to their evolutionry condition yet the very essence of the balsmaic
phase is to 'universalize consciousnes'.......so there would be this dimension
within them yet manifesting thru the first stage spiritual. 
yes it is much easier to go from the first stage individuated to the second
stage individuated for example than from third stage consensus to first
stage individuated.......
,Jeffrey 

skipping individuation,Saturday 25-Nov-2000 10:54:39 
HELLO
I wondered if it possible for a soul to grow from third conscensus stage to
spiritual by skipping the individuated. Throoughout History there has
been a lot of cases documented of people living life in conformity to social
costums and then experiencing some spiritual awakening that has
projected them straight to high spiritual awareness. An Individual like
Gandhi for ex. was a yuppie lawyer traveling in his first class train before
it all happened...Or Edgar Cayce was an extremely conservative religious
person who suddenly had vision of spiritual nature beyond conscensus
conservatism.
These people did not go through lifetimes of individuation they got the
truth and skipped the middle stage. or so it seems !
Thanks,Maurice 
Re: skipping individuation,Saturday 25-Nov-2000 11:53:33,, 
hi maurice 

the key words in your question 'or so it seems'.......remember that those in
third stage individuated can 'appear' as 'normal' from the point of view of
the consensus complete with the costumes of the consensus state. IT IS
NOT POSSIBLE to skip from the consensus to the spiritual.......this is of
course a violation of the natural law of evolution itself......perhaps the most
astounding example that comes to my mind is the guru of
yogananda.......yukestwar...until his midlife he was a 'householder' who did
what everyone else appeared to do even married...i think he even had a
kid........then look what happened......,Jeffrey 
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Linda
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« Reply #102 on: Apr 15, 2011, 08:53 PM »


This is a great example chart to study the Aries archetype.

After catching up on a brief history of Gandhi, I have come to the conclusion that he was in the Spiritual evolutionary condition, and possibly in the 3rd stage since his teachings have spread across the globe. [ I have since changed my mind about this! ]  

Added later:  [ Of course, as a man he was fallible, that is for sure, and the chart shows this, but perhaps his Soul had a deeper mission to fulfill.  Certainly the idea of non-violent resistance has captured the attention of the whole world.  Was this a personal teaching, or was the evolutionary message coming from a higher place? (Uranus square Neptune)  Is not the spirit of man sick and tired of violence? ]

He was criticized because of an apparent “foot in mouth disease” indicated by Jupiter new conjunction to Pluto;  Aquarius SN;  Uranus conjunct MC;  Lilith in Aries;  Mars opposite Pluto;  Mercury skipped steps;  the Aries archetype in the chart (unplanned thought/action);  perhaps some resistance (Scorpio 1st);  and the chart being “paradoxical” (Aries/Libra -- WHY did he make those statements?  WHY was he such a virulent agitator in the early years?).  

He was a Hindu, and that patriarchally distorted religion contained violence (eg Krishna and the gods plotting wars).  He appeared to be operating in an individuated evolutionary condition in the early years, but he could very well have actually been in the spiritual evolutionary condition as the events in his life unfolded to reveal a deeper purpose.  

The Mars/Libra archetype is beautifully demonstrated in this chart.  The spiritual purpose is described by Neptune Aries 6th (spiritual work);  Chiron Aries 6th (healing and purification);  Sun Libra 12th (spiritual purpose, universal love, balance);  Pluto and Venus in mutual reception --- and all of these archetypes balancing violence with peace.

The Soul was dealing with taking a message or teaching to reach the whole world as indicated by SN Pluto 3rd (message) – natal Pluto 7th (evolutionary intent) – and NN Pluto 9th (teaching).  SN Aquarius 4th – ruler Uranus Cancer 9th (conj MC), interfacing with NN Uranus Gemini 8th (powerful transformational message) – illustrates a resistance to tyranny through mass civil disobedience, a philosophy firmly founded upon ahimsa (non-violence).

The Mars/Pluto phasal relationship is an “opposition” indicating that he had 4 prior lives working on the evolutionary intent.  In this chart, we can see the forward momentum (strong angularity);  the theme of “liberation” from the past (Aquarius 4th, Indian Independent Movement), doing it “his way” (Pluto/Nodes/Jupiter/Neptune/Chiron all Rx);  and being officially honoured as the “Father of the Nation” (Leo 10th).

The 1st house contains the natural archetype of the Mars/Scorpio inconjunct, and so the feeling of “entrapment” was relieved through the NN Mars 9th (expansion, freedom).

With Saturn/Sag/2nd (Natural Laws), he became a “force” for evolutionary change since that house is ruled by Pluto (his Soul's evolutionary intent).  

The SN Mars 1st interfaces with that lifetime’s Mars 1st, and the NN of Mars 9th.  The energy is forward moving, fulfilling his Soul intentions instinctively and expansively.

The skipped steps situation is indicated by SN Mercury Libra 12th (extremes) interfacing with that lifetime’s Mercury Scorpio 1st, and the NN Mercury Virgo 11th (liberation and purification).  There is also a connection to SN Saturn and SN Pluto in the 3rd house.  This could indicate the reasons for the bad rap due to rash statements made throughout his life, and then having to learn humility through the NN Mercury Virgo 11th to purify that area.  

The skipped steps were recovered via the NN Leo 10th (ruled by Sun/Libra/12th) conjunct the planetary NN of Neptune, an indicator of a higher mission.  The recovery of these skipped steps was to bring balance to an extreme situation by taking an important evolutionary message that inspired movements for civil rights and freedom across the world as shown by NN Saturn, NN Pluto, and NN Jupiter – all conjunct the MC – and note also the NN Venus and NN Neptune in the 10th house.

« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2011, 11:19 PM by Linda » Logged
Lucius
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« Reply #103 on: Apr 15, 2011, 09:46 PM »

I wish I had more energy for his chart analysis - I've been posted elsewhere here when I should be working against deadline with another project!  And I'll be gathering some thoughts for the Taurus thread.  But - first, I trust J.WolfGreen's assessment of his e.state & remember distinctly despairing of myself in reaction!

Aside from that though I don't feel that Gandhi was drawing people toward Source, 'god'dess' or what have you in his life - he wasn't teaching that per se - he was advocating a perspective that was very much a social issue and very much questioning consensus assumptions in his stances.  I compare him to J.WolfGreen (who is third spiritual) and Gandhi's dynamic and 'bottom line' isn't the same (in my opinion!).  Also, I was under the impression third state spiritual people usually are somewhat 'under the radar' in their lives - not so prominent and in conflict with the 'powers that be'.

Gandhi's an inspiration, just as Einstein, and Carl Jung - but I don't agree with e.state of third spiritual.

The evolutionary states are so difficult - or, at any rate,I find them difficult.  I wouldn't mind a thread of famous folks, their states and why they are in those states.
 
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Linda
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« Reply #104 on: Apr 15, 2011, 10:32 PM »

I trust J.WolfGreen's assessment of his e.state & remember distinctly despairing of myself in reaction!


Hi Lucius,

I must have missed this.  In what evolutionary state did JWG place Gandhi?

Thanks.
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