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Author Topic: House cusps / Porphyry  (Read 7280 times)
Linda
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« on: Apr 28, 2009, 06:56 PM »

Hi everyone,

Since recently learning from this forum that EA prefer to use the Porphyry house system, I drew up my chart using this system, and now find that natal Pluto is very close to within 1 degree from the 11th house cusp.  With Placidus, Pluto's position was 5 deg away from this cusp.

Natal Jupiter is now found in the 12th house, not the 11th - and I can really relate to this also.

As far as Pluto in the 10th house goes, I have never aspired to worldly power, status and success.  In fact I'd say almost the opposite, that I have not achieved worldly power and status, nor desired it.  To be honest, I find that sort of power a little distasteful.  I have an aversion to worldly power, because it is so easily abused imo.  And perhaps I even abused it myself in prior lives.

Throughout my life I felt I was karmically blocked from playing a meaningful role in my society and especially in the culture of this country (not US).  Or perhaps my own soul desired to move forward, and resisted being pigeonholed by society, family, and friends.   

My Pluto is 29.59 deg Leo Rx. 

Could you please comment on house cusps and orbs in relation to natal Pluto.

Many thanks!
« Last Edit: Apr 28, 2009, 07:11 PM by Linda » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 29, 2009, 09:24 AM »

Hi Linda, thanks for bringing this up- I've been wanting to ask a question about porphyry as well.
can you post your chart or share your data so we can see the full context what your talking about?

I'm really interested in knowing more about why porphyry. I myself don't have a particular preference. When pulling up charts for clients, sometimes one house system feels really right, but sometimes another house system feels really right. im interested in hearing more about this.

It's funny, having an aversion to wordly power can be a pluto in the 10th house thing or it can be an 11th house orientation.
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Sajani
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 29, 2009, 10:02 AM »

Throughout my life I felt I was karmically blocked from playing a meaningful role in my society and especially in the culture of this country (not US).  Or perhaps my own soul desired to move forward, and resisted being pigeonholed by society, family, and friends.   

My Pluto is 29.59 deg Leo Rx.  Could you please comment on house cusps and orbs in relation to natal Pluto. Many thanks!

Linda, to me, your quote here really illustrates that 10th house Pluto Retrograde. "Resisted being pigeonholed" is that retrograde - the need to do it YOUR way (and necessarily so as Jeffrey used to say), and thus you don't fit the "mold", so to speak, as defined BY society (10th house), and so you are "blocked from playing a meaningful role in my society and culture" etc. See how absolutely vivid your words are in relation to a 10th house Pluto? And the intent, of course, is in the PP in the 4th house: To develop INNER security - to be independent FROM society and draw your strength and courage from within - to trust yourSELF, etc. 

There are also times, especially within the context of the society in which we find ourselves, that we HAVE to follow the stupid 'rules' in ORDER to ge to the position where we can DO what we want within that society, but then we do it OUR OWN WAY! Who, then, gets the last laugh, so to speak?! Smiley

I agree with Ari, it woud be neat to have your chart to plug in the other components, especially of the basic EA axis of Pluto, the nodes, and the planetary rulers of the nodes.  Great question, Linda! I'm glad you brought it up.
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Rad
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 29, 2009, 12:39 PM »

Hi Linda,

 The Porphyry House System is the preferred system for Evolutionary Astrology because it reflects the law of the trinity. The prime number in this system is 3. It was even developed by a Christian Mystic named Porphyry sometime in the 4th Century as I recall. It also is system that assumes that the space/place of one's birth is equal.
 Relative to orbs and house cusps: when a planet, any planet, is one or degree or less from a house cusp, i.e. that your Pluto is within one degree of the 11th House cusp, means that an entire sequence of lives is culminating relative to the archetype of the House / Sign that the Pluto, or any planet, is in. It's in essence mutating/ evolving from one archetype to the next: the house on it's immediate horizon. In your case that would be the 11th House. When a planet, any planet, is within one degree after a House Cusp that means the the culmination has basically been accomplished and that a brand new sequence of lives is beginning relative to the archetype of the House that that planet is in.
 Your own statements about your orientation to your existing 10th House Pluto demonstrates how important it is for the EA astrologer to know the specific evolutionary condition of each Soul. Anytime a Soul evolves beyond the consensus the orientation to the 10th House Pluto, in your case, is totally different than a consensus defined Soul.
 
   Rad
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Linda
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 30, 2009, 05:10 PM »

Thanks Ari, Sajani and Rad for answering my question.  I like the Porphyry house system as I feel it more accurately represents my chart.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 30, 2009, 07:28 PM »

Hi Rad, and everyone,
I wonder if there is a way to tangibly see that dynamic operating in a persons life- when a planet is on the cusp of a non-angular house. In other words, relative to evolutionary state and karma, what does it actually look like when a function is mutating from one archetype to the next?
AND
does your statement imply that a 10th house pluto will naturally evolve in progression through lifetimes to an 11th house, then a 12th house etc... ??


So about house systems- does anyone know of a site that goes into the philosophical difference between the various house systems? and in particular, any ea material that explains "why porphyryryr"?
Thanks!
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ari moshe
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2009, 03:35 AM »

if anyone has more info, great, however in an early morning read of the old ea message board from 1999, i found this:

(Answer) the traditional equal house system, in my view, is totally bogus. the porphyry system is the best to use for evolutionary purposes. it does reflect that the space of one's birth place is equal, yet reflects the obvious reality of an mc and ic..the primary vertical and horizontal in which the space is equal within it...the root number in this system is 3 which is the root number is all mathmatics...this system was developed by a christin mystic named porphyry in the 4th centure AD...and reflects the spiritual law of the trinity. jeffrey
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Rad
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2009, 09:29 AM »

Hi Ari,

Hi Rad, and everyone,
I wonder if there is a way to tangibly see that dynamic operating in a persons life- when a planet is on the cusp of a non-angular house. In other words, relative to evolutionary state and karma, what does it actually look like when a function is mutating from one archetype to the next?

What it looks like is that the individual will exhibit psychological/ behavioral dynamics of both of the archetypes. In the case where the planet is before the actual house cusp in question the bottom line in those dynamics will be the actual house that the planet is in while moving towards the archetypal dynamics of the house that it is moving towards. In the case where the planet is already in the house by one degree or less the bottom line dynamics will that house with an 'overlay' of the dynamics/ behaviors of the house that has just been left behind.

Quote
AND
does your statement imply that a 10th house pluto will naturally evolve in progression through lifetimes to an 11th house, then a 12th house etc... ??

No.

 Rad
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2009, 11:17 AM by Steve » Logged
stephen
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 07, 2009, 08:27 PM »

quote from Rad: May 02, 2009, 09:29:02 AM
Quote
What it looks like is that the individual will exhibit psychological/ behavioral dynamics of both of the archetypes. In the case where the planet is before the actual house cusp in question the bottom line in those dynamics will be the actual house that the planet is in while moving towards the archetypal dynamics of the house that it is moving towards. In the case where the planet is already in the house by one degree or less the bottom line dynamics will that house with an 'overlay' of the dynamics/ behaviors of the house that has just been left behind.

question: If the planet is 'already in the house by one degree or less' (after the cusp) and additonally is retrograde, is that process reversed, and so the psychological/ behavioral dynamics will be an 'overlay' of the dynamics/ behaviors of the house that the planet is in while then moving towards the archetypal dynamics of the PREVIOUS house?


Copied below are the rest of the 'hits' from the archived Message Board, and a very brief explanation of the Porphyry house method from Wikipedia.  I added the dates in case anyone wants to read the questions, as well.  What an amazing resource we are given in that Message Board and in this growing Forum.

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19-Jan-1999
(Answer) the traditional equal house system, in my view, is totally bogus. the porphyry system is the best to use for evolutionary purposes. it does reflect that the space of one's birth place is equal, yet reflects the obvious reality of an mc and ic..the primary vertical and horizontal in which the space is equal within it...the root number in this system is 3 which is the root number is all mathmatics...this system was developed by a christin mystic named porphyry in the 4th centure AD...and reflects the spiritual law of the trinity. jeffrey

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08-Sep-1999
(Answer) Well, this system was actually developed by a Christian Mystic named Porphyry in the 4th Century A.d. The root number in the system is 3, and conceives that the space of one's birth is equal. 3 is the root number in all advanced mathmatics. And, for evolutionary purposes, reflects the spiritual law of the trinity, or, from a more mundane point of view, the past, present, and future. Thus, for evolutionary purposes, this is the system of choice. jeffrey

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10-May-2000
the core difference in house systems is whether they are 'space' based, or 'time' based. this means in time based systems like placidius that the degrees on the various houses are determined by the amount of time it takes for the sun to travel from the ascendant to the m.c. at one's birth. space based systems like porphyry divide the amound of space relative to the mc and ascendant equally relative to the place of one's birth. the origin of the porphyry system is based on a christina mystic from the 4th century a.d., his name being porphyry. the root number in the system is 3 which of course is the number in all advanced mathmatics. you can also see how this reflects the law of the trinity, or evolution relative to past, present, future. for evolutionary purposes this is the house system of choice. Jeffrey

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29-Oct-2000
the law of three is simply the natural law of evolution itself: past present future. and of course this natural law has permeated all of the major religions of the world as in christianity........the father son holy ghost... around the fourth century a christian mystic named porphyry developed this house system called porhyry. it is based on this natural law of three or the trinity. the root number is all mathmatics is three. so porphyry then postulated that wherever one is born that the space of that place is equal: i.e. the relationship of the asc to the m.c.. in any horoscope there will be x amount of degrees between the asc and the m.c.. in the porphyry system that amount of 'space' or degree's is then divided by three. whatever the quotient is.....i.e. 90 degrees..is then divided by three......equalling a quotient....i.e. in this example it would be 30 degrees....that quotient is then added to the natal m.c. degree which then equals the 11th house cusp. that same quotient is then added to this 11th house cusp the create the 12th house cusp and this is  then added to the 12th house cusp which comes right back to the natal degrees of the asc.....this is then also done relative to the asc and the i.c...and the relevant cusps are then determined........ Jeffrey

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April 01, 2001
Jeffrey: The best system for evolutionary astrology is the Porphyry House system. This system was developed in the 4th century by a Christian mystic named Porphyry. The root number in the system is 3 which of course is the root number in all advanced mathematics. Thus the natural law of the trinity: past, present, future. It thus assumes that the local space of one's birth is equal. It is a 'spatial' based system. The 'true' node is the node to be used.

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July 27, 2001
Jeffrey: I use the Porphyry system for all things

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Wikipedia:
Quadrant house systems divide the houses so that they agree with the "quadrant" concept (ascendant on the first house cusp, nadir on the fourth, descendant on the seventh, and midheaven on the tenth). In the Porphyry house system, each quadrant of the ecliptic is divided into three equal parts between the four angles. This is the oldest system of quadrant style house division.

Blessings,
Stephen
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2009, 11:15 AM by Steve » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 08, 2009, 01:09 PM »

Stephen,

question: If the planet is 'already in the house by one degree or less' (after the cusp) and additonally is retrograde, is that process reversed, and so the psychological/ behavioral dynamics will be an 'overlay' of the dynamics/ behaviors of the house that the planet is in while then moving towards the archetypal dynamics of the PREVIOUS house?

****************************************************************************

 No. That is not the case at all. The retrograde archetype, among other archetypal meanings, correlates with INDIVIDUALIZING whatever it touches. Thus, it actually accelerates the evolution of the Soul.

 Rad
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stephen
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 08, 2009, 04:38 PM »


 No. That is not the case at all. The retrograde archetype, among other archetypal meanings, correlates with INDIVIDUALIZING whatever it touches. Thus, it actually accelerates the evolution of the Soul.

 Rad

Rad,

Thanks very much for the response, which leads me to ask another question.  Does it individualize whatever it touches if the person is in an individuated state, and spiritualize whatever it touches if the person is in a spiritual state?  Or, is that an overlapping of concepts?

A friend of mine was learning a new language, and she said that suddenly one day, she started to think in that language, and after that the learning process was greatly accelerated.  That is what I am working towards..learning to think in the language of EA.

By the way, for my own notes, I edited together the various 'hits' from the message board concerning Jeffrey Wolf Green's comments about the use of Porphyry Houses.  I thought it might be of value, so I went ahead and posted that below.  In editing, I tried not to remove important information nor add anything that didn't exist in the originals.

Blessings,
Stephen




Porphyry Houses:
Quadrant house systems divide the houses so that they agree with the “quadrant” concept (ascendant on the first house cusp, nadir on the fourth, descendant on the seventh, and midheaven on the tenth).  In the Porphyry house system, each quadrant of the ecliptic is divided into three equal parts between the four angles.  This is the oldest system of quadrant style house division.
-source: Wikipedia search: Porphyry


The core difference in house systems are whether they are ‘time’ based or ‘space’ based.  This means that in time based systems like Placidius, the degrees on the various houses are determined by the amount of time it takes for the Sun to travel from the Ascendant at one's birth to the MC.   However, space-based systems like Porphyry divide the amount of space relative to the MC and Ascendant equally - relative to the place of one's birth.
The Porphyry House System was developed by a Christian mystic named Porphyry in the 4th century AD.  This system reflects that the space of one's birth place is equal, reflecting the obvious reality of MC and IC as the primary vertical and horizontal within which that space is equal.

Porphyry postulated wherever one is born, the space of that place is equal, i.e. the relationship of the Ascendant to the MC.  In any horoscope there will be x amount of degrees between the Ascendant and the MC.  In the Porphyry House System that amount of ‘space’ in degrees is then divided by three.  That number of degrees (example: 90 degrees) is therefore divided by three to equal a quotient (example:  30 degrees).  That quotient is then added to the natal MC degree, and the result equals the 11th house cusp.  That same quotient is then added to this 11th house cusp in order to create the 12th house cusp, and the same quotient is again added to the 12th house cusp which comes right back to the natal degrees of the Ascendant.  This same method is also completed relative to the Ascendant and the IC to determine the relevant cusps.

The root number in this system is three, which is the root number in all advanced mathematics.  For evolutionary purposes, this reflects the Spiritual Law of the Trinity, and of course this natural law has permeated all of the major religions of the world, as in Christianity…Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.  From a more mundane point of view, the Natural Law of Three is simply the natural law of evolution itself relative to the past, present, and future.

The best system for Evolutionary Astrology is the Porphyry House system, since, for evolutionary purposes, this is the system of choice.

I use the Porphyry system for all things.

- edited comments by Jeffrey Wolf Green; Archived EA Message Board Q&A, 1999-2003
:: 19.Jan.1999 08.Sep.1999 10.May.2000 29.Oct.2000 01.April.2001 27.July.2001



« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2009, 04:41 PM by stephen » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 09, 2009, 11:06 AM »

Hi Stephan,


 No. That is not the case at all. The retrograde archetype, among other archetypal meanings, correlates with INDIVIDUALIZING whatever it touches. Thus, it actually accelerates the evolution of the Soul.

 Rad

Rad,

Thanks very much for the response, which leads me to ask another question.  Does it individualize whatever it touches if the person is in an individuated state, and spiritualize whatever it touches if the person is in a spiritual state?  Or, is that an overlapping of concepts?

**************************************************************************

 The retrograde archetype operates at all levels of evolution for all Souls. The individualizing aspect of it means that is operates in a Uranus like way in that it progressively rejects or rebels against the external conditioning of how a given archetype, i.e. Venus, is expected to to be actualized or lived. The rejection or rebellion is about uncovering , progressively, what that actual truth is about the inherent individuality of any given Soul relative to all the various archetypes that in total equal the consciousness of the Soul in human form. The rejection or rebellion of the retrograde archetype thus accelerates the natural evolutionary progression of the Soul because it withdraws from the external expectations equaling conditioning of the planet, archetype, that is retrograde. This individualizing aspect of the retrograde archetype applies to all levels of evolution. In the spiritual state, for example, it means for each Soul to discover their own individual way of reuniting with it's source: God/ess.

**************************************************************************

A friend of mine was learning a new language, and she said that suddenly one day, she started to think in that language, and after that the learning process was greatly accelerated.  That is what I am working towards..learning to think in the language of EA.

***************************************************************************

 Yes, and it's Soul has it's own SOUL LANGUAGE that in total defines the inherent individuality of all Souls. The retrograde archetype intends for all of us to remember/ relearn that Soul language that resides in each of us.

***************************************************************************

By the way, for my own notes, I edited together the various 'hits' from the message board concerning Jeffrey Wolf Green's comments about the use of Porphyry Houses.  I thought it might be of value, so I went ahead and posted that below.  In editing, I tried not to remove important information nor add anything that didn't exist in the originals.

*************************************************************************

 Thanks for doing that Stephen.............


 Rad











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stephen
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 09, 2009, 09:21 PM »


Quote
The retrograde archetype operates at all levels of evolution for all Souls. The individualizing aspect of it means that is operates in a Uranus like way in that it progressively rejects or rebels against the external conditioning of how a given archetype, i.e. Venus, is expected to to be actualized or lived. The rejection or rebellion is about uncovering , progressively, what that actual truth is about the inherent individuality of any given Soul relative to all the various archetypes that in total equal the consciousness of the Soul in human form. The rejection or rebellion of the retrograde archetype thus accelerates the natural evolutionary progression of the Soul because it withdraws from the external expectations equaling conditioning of the planet, archetype, that is retrograde. This individualizing aspect of the retrograde archetype applies to all levels of evolution. In the spiritual state, for example, it means for each Soul to discover their own individual way of reuniting with it's source: God/ess.

Thanks very much for that explanation!  More great information!  So, for example, my birthchart shows Saturn and Neptune as natal retrograde planets, and this would then mean that I am in "rejection or rebellion of the retrograde archetype" of limitation (Saturn) and illusion (Neptune)...?

Quote
Thanks for doing that Stephen...

You are of course welcome.  I am simply attempting to bring something of value to this site, for I am getting GREAT value from this site, and from the JWG Paradigm of Evolutionary Astrology.

Rad, Thanks very much for the time and the teachings!!

Blessings,
Stephen

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Rad
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 10, 2009, 12:34 PM »

HI Stephen,
 
Quote

Thanks very much for that explanation!  More great information!  So, for example, my birthchart shows Saturn and Neptune as natal retrograde planets, and this would then mean that I am in "rejection or rebellion of the retrograde archetype" of limitation (Saturn) and illusion (Neptune)...?


 Saturn correlates to the structural nature of our consciousness which means that whatever house and sign that our Saturn is in conditions and defines every other archetype, planet, within our consciousness. Saturn correlates with what is called 'reality' in general, and what constitutes 'reality' as defined by the consensus of any given group of people at any point in time. Saturn correlates the the natural function that all within a group have in order to sustain the needs of that group. Thus, what has come to be called 'careers' or 'work' within a given group or society. Saturn correlates with the very phenomena of time and space, and, as a result, finitude. Saturn correlates to gravity and thus mass. In combination Saturn thus correlates to form. Relative to a consensus of people Saturn correlates with laws, customs, and norms that the group is expected to conform too for group to maintain stability. Thus, is correlates to man made laws. Because of it's correlation to time, and that which is finite, Saturn also correlates with aging and thus emotional/ psychological maturation.
 When Saturn is retrograde the Soul will naturally rebel from anyone or anything telling it how to be, or what to do, or what to think, of what 'reality' is actually about as defined and assumed to be real by the consensus of the society that it is born into. It will  rebel even from the parental authority if that authority is imposed for no other reason than to impose it. Saturn retrograde needs to determine it's own reality, it's own authority, and integrate itself into society in it's own way that honors what it feels to be it's inherent individuality. With Saturn retrograde and correlating to the structural nature of consciousness this then means that every other archetype, planet, within that consciousness is also being defined via this overall retrograde archetype even if other planets themselves are not retrograde. With Saturn retrograde it's like pointing an arrow towards Uranus.
  Neptune correlates with the phenomena of consciousness itself. Consciousness in human form. It correlates to infinity and thus timelessness. Ultimate reality versus man made realities. It correlates to the Source of all things and our natural relationship to the Source. It correlates to the what to ultimate meaning versus temporal meaning that we give things that ultimately have no meaning when measured against ultimate meaning. It correlates with transcendence and the need to transcend temporal reality. And so on. When Neptune is retrograde it points to Pluto itself: our Soul. When Neptune is retrograde there is an accelerated evolutionary desire, need, to throw off all things that are of a delusive nature: that which is not actually 'real' yet what we have considered real before the delusion or illusion was finally understood. Thus, it emphasizes the process of disillusionment leading to that which is actually real from an ultimate point of view. Relative to uniting our consciousness, Soul, with that which has created us in the first place, the Neptune retrograde will necessarily do so in it's own way. And so on.

 Rad
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stephen
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 10, 2009, 01:00 PM »

Rad,

Thanks so much for the detailed information, and as with the other informative posts, I will print this and study it.

Quote
Saturn retrograde needs to determine it's own reality, it's own authority, and integrate itself into society in it's own way that honors what it feels to be it's inherent individuality. With Saturn retrograde and correlating to the structural nature of consciousness this then means that every other archetype, planet, within that consciousness is also being defined via this overall retrograde archetype even if other planets themselves are not retrograde. With Saturn retrograde it's like pointing an arrow towards Uranus.

I don't think that I have enough of the Paradigm to understand all of that, honestly.  If the Saturn archetype is so rebellous, and helping to define my other conscious functions, I'm not sure I understand how that would manifest?

I am not asking for further information, definitely not a free reading, just stating the following:

My natal chart has Saturn Retrograde at 10degrees35min Aquarius conjunct the Moon's South Node at 10degrees50min Aquarius, and both square Neptune Retrograde at 10degrees57min Scorpio and Mars at 18degrees36min Taurus, and Saturn is in opposition to Venus at 7degrees4mi Leo conjunct the Moon's North Node in Leo.
Interesting that the only two planets in the chart that are retrograde are in such a close square!  Does that have any meaning the discussion of which would benefit this message board?  If its not of benefit to the board, though, then I withdraw the question! Wink

Quote
When Neptune is retrograde it points to Pluto itself: our Soul. When Neptune is retrograde there is an accelerated evolutionary desire, need, to throw off all things that are of a delusive nature: that which is not actually 'real' yet what we have considered real before the delusion or illusion was finally understood. Thus, it emphasizes the process of disillusionment leading to that which is actually real from an ultimate point of view. Relative to uniting our consciousness, Soul, with that which has created us in the first place, the Neptune retrograde will necessarily do so in it's own way.

That is exactly what is happening to me lately!!  Something recently went 'gong' and my perception starting clearing, and now I am trying to cast aside many different levels of self-imposed illusions and their accompanying delusions...however, there always seems to be more and more and more...a flood of stuff, actually...  The only real lesson I have deeply learned is that there are an endless amount of lessons to learn, and I think the EA Paradigm has insights for me, and so I am on this board, and reading and watching the DVDs as if this Paradigm is a bit of solid land in a usually stormy ocean!  (If this personal stuff doesn't belong here, just let me know, and I will certainly delete it.)! Huh Undecided

If this thread is maybe helping others, and not just me (I hope it is), I would like to ask another question:

What would have caused such a thing to happen at this time?  Or, does that require a full chart analysis, employing other techniques which I only know the buzz-words for: progressions, transits, etc...?  (If so, we can leave it at that.)

Thanks again for your energy,

Blessings,
Stephen
« Last Edit: Jun 10, 2009, 09:21 PM by stephen » Logged
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