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Author Topic: Cancer Archetype  (Read 4541 times)
Wendy
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« Reply #45 on: Jul 12, 2011, 03:59 PM »

Thanks Patricia--I will remove the chart.
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Steve
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« Reply #46 on: Jul 12, 2011, 08:28 PM »

Hi Ellen

...In a way, to call something manipulative is to make a (Capricorn) judgment.  So to the extent that one might be castigating oneself, sort of wielding against oneself an external standard/judgment re: one's behavior, that is maybe where my questioning comes in.  It is not wrong to try to get one's needs met.  To me this is natural and normal.  The fact that these efforts occur in unhealthy (manipulative) ways reflects the wounding that our cultures of today so typically manifest.  Yet at the same time, we have chosen these times and these experiences so that we can learn and grow.  If the word "manipulative" is descriptive (using HEALTHY cultural standards to help one understand oneself more - to grow and change -, I understand.  If it is judgmental towards oneself or others (using UNHEALTHY cultural standards to unconstructively blame oneself), I'm not so sure I agree with it.

Jeffrey always taught that judgment (Capricorn) is inherent to consciousness.  The issue is not judgment but what is the basis of the judgments being made.  When one is aligned with what is natural (natural law) the basis of the judgments is healthy.  Otherwise, distorted.

Natural judgment gives us a yardstick against which we can measure self - was I (or he or she) aligned with natural intention when I/they (fill in blank).  If not, that is a measure of room for improvement (Virgo).  If yes, it is self-validating that one is on their intended path. 

Manipulative means trying to impose one's desired outcome on life.  To me manipulation is never part of natural intent.  Natural comes down to accepting "what is is, and what isn't isn't".  We go for what we desire.  We are supposed to.  Natural means knowing how to discern when, based on results (or lack of results), what I desire is not what is intended.  If I continue trying to make something happen after realizing its not what's intended (or remain in denial), that is manipulation.  If I don't go after what I want, that is not spiritual, that is laziness.  Discernment is knowing the difference - when to strive, and when to let go and accept.
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #47 on: Jul 13, 2011, 10:22 AM »

Hi Ellen

...In a way, to call something manipulative is to make a (Capricorn) judgment.  So to the extent that one might be castigating oneself, sort of wielding against oneself an external standard/judgment re: one's behavior, that is maybe where my questioning comes in.  It is not wrong to try to get one's needs met.  To me this is natural and normal.  The fact that these efforts occur in unhealthy (manipulative) ways reflects the wounding that our cultures of today so typically manifest.  Yet at the same time, we have chosen these times and these experiences so that we can learn and grow.  If the word "manipulative" is descriptive (using HEALTHY cultural standards to help one understand oneself more - to grow and change -, I understand.  If it is judgmental towards oneself or others (using UNHEALTHY cultural standards to unconstructively blame oneself), I'm not so sure I agree with it.

Jeffrey always taught that judgment (Capricorn) is inherent to consciousness.  The issue is not judgment but what is the basis of the judgments being made.  When one is aligned with what is natural (natural law) the basis of the judgments is healthy.  Otherwise, distorted.

Hi Steve,  Thanks..  Agreed.  This is exactly what I was saying.......



Natural judgment gives us a yardstick against which we can measure self - was I (or he or she) aligned with natural intention when I/they (fill in blank).  If not, that is a measure of room for improvement (Virgo).  If yes, it is self-validating that one is on their intended path. 

Yes, again.  Agreed.



Manipulative means trying to impose one's desired outcome on life.  To me manipulation is never part of natural intent.  Natural comes down to accepting "what is is, and what isn't isn't".  We go for what we desire.  We are supposed to.  Natural means knowing how to discern when, based on results (or lack of results), what I desire is not what is intended.  If I continue trying to make something happen after realizing its not what's intended (or remain in denial), that is manipulation.  If I don't go after what I want, that is not spiritual, that is laziness.  Discernment is knowing the difference - when to strive, and when to let go and accept.
Steve

The part that I highlighted is what I've been zeroing in on in my posts.... I think this is a difficult discernment and I think we (individually and culturally) tend to be harsh in our assessments/judgments.  It's one thing to recognize, on some level, that something's not working.  It's another thing to understand all the wounding and lack that has driven the behavior and yet another to know how to then respond to that in a way that allows healing to occur.  It is a process.  It takes time.  I feel that when judgment is used to condemn, it interferes with the instinct for healing.  When judgment is used simply as a means of recognizing and understanding what is/isn't working, it facilitates the healing/growth process.  Best I can do at trying to explain what I'm trying to get at.......

Well wishes,
Ellen


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Steve
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« Reply #48 on: Jul 13, 2011, 01:33 PM »

Hi Ellen

Quote
I think this is a difficult discernment and I think we (individually and culturally) tend to be harsh in our assessments/judgments. 

Judgments based on what is natural are not harsh, they are appropriate.  Sometimes what is appropriate can seem strong.  When its a time for that, it is not harsh, its appropriate.

If our approach is too soft or too strong, its a deviation from what is intended.

Quote
It's one thing to recognize, on some level, that something's not working.  It's another thing to understand all the wounding and lack that has driven the behavior and yet another to know how to then respond to that in a way that allows healing to occur. 

There really is no thinking or analysis required for any of that. Its just to operate from one's intuition, which is aligned with what is intended and appropriate.  You just know, without knowing how you know.  And then you carry out what you know.  It's that simple.

When the brain gets overly involved, doubting the intuitions, that is how the distortions enter in.  "It can't be that, it must be this.  I can't do that, etc." That is what we need to drop.  To re-learn to trust the natural process that we innately feel.

Quote
I feel that when judgment is used to condemn, it interferes with the instinct for healing. 
Naturally judgment never condemns.  It simply points out what is there to say. Because of people's wounding they may perceive what was said as condemning.  That doesn't necessarily mean it was. 

Distortions of what is natural do condemn.  If something is truly condemning its not coming from a natural place.

Quote
When judgment is used simply as a means of recognizing and understanding what is/isn't working, it facilitates the healing/growth process. 

This is the essence of natural judgment.  That is the whole point.  When judgment is not coming from that place it is not natural judgment. 

Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #49 on: Jul 13, 2011, 03:14 PM »

 

Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.

Steve, This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at!


Steve
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Steve
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« Reply #50 on: Jul 13, 2011, 05:04 PM »

Hi Ellen


Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.

Steve, This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at!


That's great. 

So many of us are so wounded we don't even recognize what natural is when we trip over it.  We've forgotten.  All I was doing was speaking into that.  The more I feel my way back to that place the simpler I perceive it really is, that place I mean.
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #51 on: Jul 13, 2011, 06:45 PM »

Hi Ellen


Our own wounds keep us from being able to discern the difference.  As we start recognizing what each feels like the discerning of the difference gets easier.

Steve, This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at!


That's great.  

So many of us are so wounded we don't even recognize what natural is when we trip over it.  
True. (And made me laugh...)
We've forgotten.  All I was doing was speaking into that.
I understand.
 The more I feel my way back to that place the simpler I perceive it really is, that place I mean.
Yes.  I feel, as you said above, that the discerning gets easier with the recognition of how it feels (especially in contrast to how the other feels).
Steve
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