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Author Topic: Discerning the evolutionary condition of children...?  (Read 5207 times)
stephen
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« on: Jun 06, 2009, 11:38 PM »

Hi All,

I have only begun the coursework for EA, yet I have a question about discerning the evolutionary stage or condition of children.  I want to apply the EA Paradigm to my childrens' charts to reveal their path so that I can better understand them and provide support for their differing evolutionary needs.  My youngest son is seven, my older son is eighteen and disabled, and my daughter is twenty-two .  She would seem to vacillate between third stage consensus and first stage individuated, but it is hard to tell since she has moved out and I see her less frequently now.  I would be able to ask her the appropriate questions, however, to more finely tune my understanding of her evolutionary condition.  My oldest son appears to be in first stage consensus reality, as he only knows exactly what he is taught, and accepts the knowledge of authority figures to be without question.  However, my youngest son is really the reason for posting this particular question.

It would seem to me that most children come in a spiritual state, which then perhaps 'diminishes' into an individuated state when they are first learning the 'mechanics of being human' so to speak.  This level then seems to often 'diminish' into consensus reality as they are forced into specific cultural and social and gender roles by their immediate environments and caregivers.  Perhaps that is what the Soul expected and why it chose those parents and that specific environment...?

Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  So, do children mostly start in consensus, and then perhaps individuate as they age?  If the Soul generates the Ego that it requires in a certain life, is that Ego in place in extreme youth...or does it come forth later in life, after the conditioning of environment/society/culture impinge upon them?

Also, a related question: Has any study been done on the mapping of childrens' evolutionary states with those of their parents?  For example, do consensus-reality-level souls usually come as children to consensus-reality-level parents...or would it be that consensus-reality-level souls come as children to parents who are of a higher level, in order to help that child expand into a higher evolutionary stage?  Or, is it an unnecessary question, as the Soul comes to whatever family can provide a chance to learn the appropriate lessons for that Soul's evolution?

Thanks to anyone who has any input,
Stephen
« Last Edit: Jun 06, 2009, 11:49 PM by stephen » Logged
Deva
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 07, 2009, 09:25 AM »

Hi Stephen, thanks for posting these questions. Children come into life in a specific evolutionary state, but I feel that you are saying that specific conditioning patterns set in later in life (as children grow up) that are not there as a small child. This tends to start happeneing at the first saturn square (at about 7 years of age) because we start to become aware of the nature of the society/culture we are growing up in, and what that society expects from us in terms of conformity to it (saturn).  Of course, this is also true of the family enviornment (Saturn correlates to the authority figure in our life that tends to be the father, and the father will act as the parent who determines the accepted behavior that must be conformed to). So, this conditioning happens on a societal/cultural level and within the family (cancer polarity point to capricorn/saturn).
The way to determine the evolutionary states of a child is the same as an adult-observe what the child's natural orientation and "bottom line." Some children are much more interested in art/poetry/individualist areas, than other who are mainly focused on material possesions and more "traditional" areas of life. Also, within the individuated state you feel that the child is alienationed from the rest of the group, and will hopefully seek out suppourt for this in one way or another. I wanted to add my thoughts with you, so I hope this helps.
Deva
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stephen
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 07, 2009, 08:05 PM »

Hi Deva,

Thanks for the EA answer, and for helping me to clarify this point.
So, no matter what the evolutionary condition at the time of the birth, the evolutionary condition of the person who is requesting the application of the EA Paradigm to their current circumstances is paramount, and thus the adage: "Observe and correlate!"
I think I am starting to get the idea...!

I was thinking further about this answer, and I had the thought:
Whereas some children act the 'same' in every environment that they encounter, others act differently in each environment, slightly/greatly modifying themselves in order to 'fit in'.  It would perhaps seem that in the first instance, the child has a firm grasp of Self, and maybe could be seen as individuated, and the in the second case, the child is swayed by the opinions/reality of the group, and perhaps could be viewed as consensus.
I believe that adults can also display this behavior pattern.

Blessings and Light,
Stephen
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Steve
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 08, 2009, 12:09 PM »

Hi Stephen

It would seem to me that most children come in a spiritual state, which then perhaps 'diminishes' into an individuated state when they are first learning the 'mechanics of being human' so to speak.  This level then seems to often 'diminish' into consensus reality as they are forced into specific cultural and social and gender roles by their immediate environments and caregivers.  Perhaps that is what the Soul expected and why it chose those parents and that specific environment...?

"It would seem to me that most children come in a spiritual state, which then perhaps 'diminishes' into an individuated state when they are first learning the 'mechanics of being human' so to speak. "
  To me this is not correct.  You are perhaps confusing the natural innocence of children with their level of spiritual evolution.  They are not the same thing.
  It takes many lifetimes to move along the evolutionary scale even a small amount in the great majority of cases.  This measures the evolutionary stage of the Soul itself, not the personality.  To the Soul each new lifetime is just one more opportunity to advance itself at least to a small extent.   The basic nature of a Soul is pure, and we see this reflection in early childhood.  But soon enough we start seeing the places within that Soul, brought in from the past, appearing.  Because that is the actual nature of that Soul, operating in its actual state of self-awareness - after all, evolutionary stages represent degrees of self-awareness, vs externally defined expectations of who one is and is supposed to be.

  I don't see it as souls "diminish" into an individuated state.  If you think about it, 70% of Souls haven't even reached the individuated state.  Thus how can they diminish into something they don't even know in the first place?  
  We are born here, and as we fully enter the body in the first years of childhood, we find ourselves operating from the same m.o., the same self-reality, self-identity we left with, perhaps in old-age, in the last go round.  In other words, we start exactly where we left off, literally.   Which explains the so-called rebellious child, who simply is more evolved than its parents.  Its a pretty strange feeling to be 3 years old and realizing you understand way more than your parents do...  Whereas other children, perhaps even siblings, are quite content to simple accept the reality put forth by the parents.

Quote
Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  So, do children mostly start in consensus, and then perhaps individuate as they age?  If the Soul generates the Ego that it requires in a certain life, is that Ego in place in extreme youth...or does it come forth later in life, after the conditioning of environment/society/culture impinge upon them?

Nothing is inherently stated that a Soul in an individuated state is not going to have the same desires for immediate gratification that other humans have.  It comes with the territory.  I would say the difference is, as a Soul evolves, the nature of its relationship with the desire for immediate gratification changes - it becomes more OK with the reality that its not going to get everything it wants when it wants it.  It matures in that way - more inherent acceptance of the laws that define human life in a body.  

  Again, a child starts where it left off.  An individuated child is going to display a sense of alienation from an early age.  It will feel different.  In some cases it will be born into a family that can not relate to that child's reality at all, which has the effect of throwing that child back on itself, to further deepen and develop that necessary individuating process.  In other cases the child will be born into a family that itself is in an individuating process, or beyond, that will validate that child's natural ways and teach it that what is right for that child is what that child knows is right for itself, no matter anyone else's opinions on that matter.
  It is unique for each child/Soul - there are no generic rules.  Its all dependent on the nature of that Soul's past, and the nature of the life lessons that Soul has planned for itself in the new incarnation.  A principle that in EA is called Evolutionary Necessary - certain experiences are simply necessary to bring about the desired growth.  In some cases those experiences can feel painful, lonely, and difficult, in others more inclusive nurturing and warm.  It all depends on what that Soul has decided is the most effective method for bringing forth the insights it wants to develop in the present life.

In terms of what you said about a child of yours exhibiting signs of both 3rd stage consensus and 1st stage individuated:  (I am just commenting on that phenomena.  Not making any statement at all about the evolutionary stage of your child or if your assessment is correct).  That is what would be described as at the cusp of a change in evolutionary stage, which itself can take several lifetimes to really settle into the new stage.  The person will go back and forth, exhibiting signs of both.  Yet they will be predominantly in one or the other, which reflects the place of actual evolutionary stage. At some point the actual crossover occurs, and then it progressively shifts forward from there.
   There is discussion in another current message board post about having Pluto at the exact cusp between two houses - this phenomena is quite similar.  One archetype is culminating, a new one is being birthed.  Prior to the actual conjunction, the dominant archetype is the old one.  Once the conjunction has occurred the dominant archetype is the new one - in that case there will still be traces of the old exhibited at times, as it is familiar and has been the prevailing m.o. for a long time.  Over time the imprint of the old progressively weakens and the archetype of the new progressively strengthens.
  We can't measure the shifting in evolutionary stage by looking at a two dimensional birth chart, as we can to chart the oncoming conjunction of Pluto and a house cusp, but the phenomena is basically the same - the old is slowly yet progressively replaced with the new.  The issue is, new always feels insecure unknown and uncertain, old feels safe known familiar comfortable.  Thus our tendency to stay with what we know.  But it becomes like a child whose growing foot no longer fits comfortably in a favorite sneaker - its becomes too small to contain the foot, so ultimately it must be released and move forward into a new pair of shoes, shoes that need to be broken in, gotten used to, made my own so to speak.  Which does gradually occur.

Quote
Also, a related question: Has any study been done on the mapping of childrens' evolutionary states with those of their parents?  For example, do consensus-reality-level souls usually come as children to consensus-reality-level parents...or would it be that consensus-reality-level souls come as children to parents who are of a higher level, in order to help that child expand into a higher evolutionary stage?  Or, is it an unnecessary question, as the Soul comes to whatever family can provide a chance to learn the appropriate lessons for that Soul's evolution?

the answer, I would say, is
"Or, is it an unnecessary question, as the Soul comes to whatever family can provide a chance to learn the appropriate lessons for that Soul's evolution?"
  Every possible combination can occur, as necessary for the evolution of the Souls involved.
  
Remember, its not just the evolution of the child - the Souls of the parents have their own evolutionary intentions.  When an "advanced" child is born into a consensus family, something within the Souls of those parents has also desired this situation, as it will result, at some point, in their own evolutionary advancement, even if they strongly resist it.
  The work of the EA astrologer is to look at the overall dynamics of all concerned and try to discern why these experiences have been necessary for both the child and the parents.
  I seem to remember however (not positive) Jeffrey saying that in the majority of cases the evolutionary stage of the parents will be close to the evolutionary stage of the children, as in the same or one stage higher or lower - 1st stage indiv and 3rd stage consensus, etc.  The parents stage can be more advanced than the childs, which has its own reasons for being.  Every possible combination occurs.

I also realized I should say something about a phenomena called masking or hiding - a soul that creates an outer reality in which it operates, and has itself convinced it is, at a level below its actual state of spiritual evolution.  (This is often associated with the Pisces archetype - hiding.)  Reasons for this can vary but quite commonly include intense traumas that have occurred in past lives relative to its actual state of spiritual awareness, it being perceived as different, outside the mainstream, challenging or threatening to the existing order.  And in the present life that Soul says to itself "who needs more of that?  I'm just going to act like I'm "supposed to", and convince myself that I'm not really as different as I feel I am".  And it will live that way, perhaps for a really long time.  Such Souls are identified when doing readings for them because on the outside they are living very conventional lives, yet the degree of depth and insight they exhibit goes well beyond the nature of the outer life, even the physical appearance - dress, manner of speaking, etc., they have adopted.

Steve
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2009, 01:31 PM by Steve » Logged

Rad
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 08, 2009, 01:05 PM »

Steve and Stephen,

 I do remember Wolf teaching, in general, that children are either in the same evolutionary condition as the parents, or sometimes a little ahead. But this is in general, not an absolute. The stuff you wrote Steve is wonderful, and, from my point of view, right on.

 Rad
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PamS
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 08, 2009, 01:43 PM »

Hi all,

Steve,

in reguards to what you said about hiding

I also realized I should say something about a phenomena called masking or hiding - a soul that creates an outer reality in which it operates, and has itself convinced it is, at a level below its actual state of spiritual evolution.  (This is often associated with the Pisces archetype - hiding.)  Reasons for this can vary but quite commonly include intense traumas that have occurred in past lives relative to its actual state of spiritual awareness, it being perceived as different, outside the mainstream, challenging or threatening to the existing order.  And in the present life that Soul says to itself "who needs more of that?  I'm just going to act like I'm "supposed to", and convince myself that I'm not really as different as I feel I am".  And it will live that way, perhaps for a really long time.  Such Souls are identified when doing readings for them because on the outside they are living very conventional lives, yet the degree of depth and insight they exhibit goes well beyond the nature of the outer life, even the physical appearance - dress, manner of speaking, etc., they have adopted.

isn't this the case with 1st stage spiritual?  I remember wolf saying that sometimes in 1st spiritual people can take on the appearance of being"normal" (such a silly word).. which is different than say 1st indivuated which is normal on the outside yet inside feeling very "different"...

great info..

thanks,

pam
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Steve
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 08, 2009, 02:24 PM »

Hi Pam

Quote
isn't this the case with 1st stage spiritual?  I remember wolf saying that sometimes in 1st spiritual people can take on the appearance of being"normal" (such a silly word).. which is different than say 1st individuated which is normal on the outside yet inside feeling very "different"...

Again, its never going to be a hard and fast rule that "all 1st stage spiritual people will be hiding".  There simply are no such rules in life.

In terms of the WHY behind Wolf's statement, if you think about what has been necessary to evolve into 1st stage spiritual, you will see all of the alienation, rejection, persecution, etc. that have so often been involved, which has triggered traumas.  And past trauma, as I said before, is one root cause of why a Soul might choose to hide.  So sure, it makes sense to me you might see a lot of this in 1st stage spiritual.  But it can occur in any stage where a Soul has advanced beyond self-identifying with the values standards and lifestyle of the collective/consensus. 

  Also, what makes you think a 1st stage spiritual person doesn't feel as different on the inside as a 1st stage individuated person?  I'd say they may feel even more different.  One difference between the two would be in general the 1st stage spiritual will have better come to terms with accepting their inherent difference - they may not like it, but they have come to terms with it.  (Remember, they have passed through 3rd stage individuated in which they have fully realized they can never again be pulled back into the collective).  So even while hiding they would still on some level know who they are.  They are just trying to keep others from finding out, wanting to avoid repetition of painful consequences of being seen that they have subconscious memories of.
Steve
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PamS
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 08, 2009, 03:26 PM »

Hi Steve,

thanks for the response... and of course, there are no hard and fast rules... I was never implying that all people who are 1st stage spiritual are hiding.  I was just recalling that that was one and I mean just one of the tipping off points for 1st stage spiritual. The soul takes on the appearance and look of normal, yet inside they feel different.   I do think that there is a difference between 1st stage indivuated and 1st stage spiritual in terms of how they feel different, they have different qualities of feeling "different" as you pointed out.   We are in agreement, from what I have learned from EA that 1st stage indivuated feels "different" actually it can be one of the most insecure states... feeling different inside yet looking normal outside.  My point was that in your comment I do think there is a connection between looking normal and feeling different in terms of evolutionary states... thats all I was just wondering how you differientated them....

thanks for the thoughtful response,

pam
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Steve
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 08, 2009, 03:53 PM »

Hi Pam

Here is a great example of the principle right on our message board, the latest reply from Linda, who has said she self-identifies as 1st stage spiritual, responding to Rad's comments, and the effect of them on her inner state:
http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,52.msg487.html#msg487
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stephen
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 08, 2009, 05:10 PM »

Hi Stephen
  To me this is not correct.  You are perhaps confusing...

Steve,

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.  An excellant posting...I feel that my internal lenses were just given a big turn towards a clearer focus.  Thanks!

Thank you very much Pam and Rad for the further information.

Blessings,
Stephen
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2009, 05:45 PM by stephen » Logged
PamS
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 08, 2009, 05:12 PM »

thanks steve!!!

very helpful !!


pam
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stephen
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 18, 2009, 08:07 AM »

Hi All,

I was reading the archived Message Board (1999-2003), and I came across the following, so I thought that I would just go ahead and bring it forward into this thread.

Blessings,
Stephen

Quote from: 12-Feb-1999

(Question) Evolutionary States & Children(Question) 12-Feb-1999 Evolutionary States & Children
1. Do the four evolutionary states apply to children as well?
2. Especially when children are young (say 10 years and younger) does not parental influence keep them more so in a consensus state?
3. Or once again, does the environment, culture, early childhood conditioning contribute to such a large extent that each child must be analyzed on an individual basis?
Shirley

(Answer) 1. yes they do
2. all children pick the overall conditions for their life including parents, culture, economic conditions, etc...
3. yes, each child must be observed and analyzed on an individual basis starting with the question: why has this child pick all the various conditions for the life it is now living...the role of the astrological detective...once you approach it from this perpective much will be revealed...
jeffrey

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ari moshe
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 18, 2009, 08:56 PM »

Hi Steve,

Quote
  There is discussion in another current message board post about having Pluto at the exact cusp between two houses - this phenomena is quite similar.  One archetype is culminating, a new one is being birthed.  Prior to the actual conjunction, the dominant archetype is the old one.  Once the conjunction has occurred the dominant archetype is the new one - in that case there will still be traces of the old exhibited at times, as it is familiar and has been the prevailing m.o. for a long time.  Over time the imprint of the old progressively weakens and the archetype of the new progressively strengthens.

I'm interested in understanding that more. this seems to imply that there was an actual past relative to the house that is prior to the conjunction. This is different than saying that the natal Pluto will express itself as a transitional energy with the emphasis on the house that it's actually in (which does not imply anything that has to do with familiarity with an m.o from the previous house). I'm seeking more clarification on this topic. Thanks!

the rest of this discussion took place on the house cusp/porphyry thread.
« Last Edit: Jun 18, 2009, 09:10 PM by ari moshe » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 19, 2009, 06:44 PM »

Hi Ari

It's pretty simple, really.  It all goes back to the principle of a subconscious past, and what defines our sense of security.  For almost all of us, security equates to what is known, consciously and subconsciously.  When an archetype is culminating, it means patterns that have been in place a long time are coming to a head.  The feelings are pretty familiar - that growing sense that something we have been really into, or defined ourselves by/as for a long time, no longer brings the satisfaction or meaning it once did.  In other words, something is in the process of ending. 

Emotionally, endings are often a mixed experience - simultaneous excitement, fear, sense of loss or grief,  and expectation of the new and what might be coming.    I describe it sometimes like winter - preceded by Fall, followed by Spring.  If you live in a harsh climate, nothing much is happening in winter. The outer can feel like death.  This is gradually followed by a rebirth, the first green of spring slowly appears.  At some point it is clearly no longer winter, it is now spring. 

But what is the difference between Dec 19th and Dec 24th?  between march 19th and march 24th?  We have changed a season within those few days, but to what degree can we feel that difference within? There is a subtle difference, on one side or the other, culminating or new, but close to that conjunction the difference is hard to consciously feel.

Similarly, planets crossing a house cusp or a changing signs.  We are either "almost there" or "have now reached the new" - the difference between those in our outer lives may not be very significant.  And yet, one or the other will be the dominant archetype.  And culminating (balsamic phase) and new (new phase) have their own inherent archetypes and thus are quite different.

As far as "actual past relative to the house prior to the conjunction", the way I look at it is - everything new, by definition, was preceded by something we now call "old" - a past.  Thus there is subconscious memory of what came before, and our need for security and safety causes us at times to want to retreat back to what previously made us feel that way. 

Jeffrey made the point many times that life, and thus astrology, is not linear.  Having Neptune in the 9th house by 4 minutes (just past the 8th house) does not necessarily imply that in the last life it was at the end of the 8th house.  There are many ways an archetype can manifest in a chart.  They might have had a stelium in late Pisces, or in the 12th house (perhaps in Scorpio), for example.  They could have had a number of planets in late degrees, in stressful aspects to Neptune and Pluto. 

The point is, the past that the new has just released from is represented by subconscious habit patterns, behaviors, emotional patterns, orientations, interests - ways of looking at life.  Those are what has culminated.   That doesn't mean they are GONE - it just means the center of gravity within that consciousness has now shifted to the new, even if only a tiny amount.

The new phase and Aries represent a lot of freedom, and a need for that.  At the same time, nothing is very clear - its all new and instinctual.  At times the person can feel they have no idea what they are doing or where they are going.  When stressed, that does not cause one to feel secure.  At such times the subconscious appeal of an unseen past that represented safety can at times be quite strong. 

The problem, as I said in that other post, is the foot has outgrown the sneaker that represents safety.  The person increasingly sees when trying to go back to the old that its just not having the same effect it used to.  Instead of feeling safe, they feel stifled - "been there, done that". Thus they wind up again thrown back on themselves - the old patterns are not working.  Gradually they learn through experience (new phase) that the only real solution is embrace the unknown and "not knowing", out of which gradually come new answers, solutions, and directions.    Gradually the hold of the past weakens, and the new directions start cutting new grooves in the brain.  The grooves of old outmoded patterns gradually erode away.  And gradually that old past loses its hold over the present.

This is a cyclical process - the day will come when what is now new itself becomes that which is outmoded, no longer serving the growth needs - becomes itself the archetype that is now culminating, as life pushes the person forward towards an even newer new.

Some of these cycles take a series of lives to complete.  Most of us don't remember what came before this life - its influence on us is subconscious.  Thus again affected by the influences of a forgotten past, without even realizing that.  When planets are near or have crossed a cusp, the intent is to start letting go of, or to really release from, what has come before.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 20, 2009, 12:03 AM »

Thanks Steve, that made a lot of sense. What are the differneces between transitions that involve angular houses as opposed to succedent as opposed to cadent? My observations is that angular house transitions are definitely intense which makes sense given their cardinal nature. Does ea ascribe the same importance for succedent and cadent?

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