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ari moshe
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« on: Jun 22, 2009, 11:54 AM »

in the ea literatre i've only found examples of second stage spiritual souls ea considers to be sketchy.  Shocked
what are some examples of other second stage spiritual folk?

here's a hunch:
jwg
chogyam trungpa rinpoche
eckart tolle

if not, what stage do you think they are/were at?
thank you
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Stacie
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 22, 2009, 01:35 PM »

Hi Ari,

The nature of the 2nd stage spiritual evolutionary condition is one of core egocentric purification relative to spiritual awareness which has been realized in the evolutionary journey.  The spiritual state itself is a neptunian condition...the 2nd stage has leonian emphasis within that.  Before the soul can evolve into the 3rd stage spiritual, the ego has to go through a necessary purging, where all the egocentrically identified impurity can be purified and culminated.  It can thus be a problematic stage.  That is why some of the examples we have of 2nd stage spiritual souls can have this 'sketchy' quality as you call it.   

JWG is in the 3rd stage spiritual condition.  As for the other two individuals you've listed, I'll leave that for someone else to comment on as I haven't done the observation to know.

Stacie
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Steve
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 22, 2009, 03:37 PM »

Hi

To further clarify a bit, the nature of 2nd stage spiritual PRODUCES individuals who would be described as "a bit sketchy" AT BEST.

The words I recall to describe the stage are "feels they have a unique toehold on the truth that no one else has ever had before".  They HAVE in fact, by that point, had real spiritual experiences, and that is the basis by which others are attracted to these folks.  I've been closely around several in my life, and know others who've been around other 2nd stage spiritual folks.  (You've never heard of the ones I was around).

What you get is a mixture of truth and falseness.  There IS truth in their teachings, and it is mixed with a bunch of self-oriented stuff.  They are not fully living out their own teachings.  Underlying it all is a deep permeating sense of spiritual arrogance.  Sometimes you can't see this at all until you get really close to the person.  In one case I was involved with, the person has been identified as being close to 3rd stage spiritual but still in 2nd.  There was tremendous truth in much of what they taught.  That particular case, the person did not manifest the possible extremes of 2nd stage spiritual.  They were not in huge power grabs, in fact were revolted by all that.  Yet the issues manifested anyway, subtly, among those gathered around this individual.  I did not really grasp it until years later when I saw video of the person, years after they had passed on.  How there was a core underlying arrogance that permeated through the words they spoke, while on the outside they lived a most humble and not wanting to be idolized or put on a pedestal reality at all.  And yet, there was this underlying state, that had been there all along, that I had not before grasped.

You have to keep in mind this is a natural archetype.  As Stacie said, the spiritual state is a neptune phenomena.  The 1st stage is virgo-like within that, the 2nd is leo-like.  Thus there is an explosion of a spiritual ego.  The words from the pluto books are something like, the person at some point is destined to experience a major downfall, out of which that spiritual ego pops, and they then begin the entry to 3rd stage spiritual for real.  Its been said its possible for the 2nd stage spiritual to be navigated in ways that are less harmful to others than some of the well known extreme cases have turned into.

In terms of your list, eckart tolle to me exhibits none of the signs of this spiritual arrogance, thus is not 2nd stage spiritual.  I'd guess he's 1st stage spiritual.  I am aware he speaks in what people consider great wisdom.  Keep in mind Jeffrey identified Dane Rudhyar as 1st stage spiritual.   These stages take a lot longer to pass through than we like to think they do, as in most cases, many many lifetimes for even a small amount of advancement.  Yogananda said the typical person changes very little from lifetime to lifetime.  

By the way, to give evolutionary perspective, typically 2nd stage people are surrounded by what you would call followers or believers.  As the 2nd stage person goes through their downfalls, these people also go through a downfall of sorts - the disillusioning of their hopes dreams beliefs, as the actual reality of the person they believed in and committed parts of their lives to becomes apparent.  In other words, they are thrown back on themselves.  I've seen many go into a complete victim state when this occurs "I was blameless, I was taken advantage of, I was abused, I did nothing, all I did was give my all to the effort" etc etc.  The gist of it is, it is part of the "believers" evolutionary journey TO have these experiences with the 2nd stage person- often the necessary lesson is to stop looking outside of self for one's answers, to stop putting anyone on a pedestal and holding them up as better.  And it is just as difficult for many of the believers to own that lesson, to look at their "mistakes", as it is for the 2nd stage spiritual person to own their own lessons.  They need each other, to learn, to grow.  So it once again comes back to all concerned taking responsibility for the reality they have created and not blaming or being a victim.  I will also say there are plenty of examples of true abuse occurring in such situations, from sexual predators, pedophiles, con artists, etc. and the wounds some experience from those types of realities are very deep and difficult.  I'm not in any way excusing any of that by saying it was your destiny or karma or whatever.  Only saying there are always inner reasons an experience is necessary in someone's life, as difficult as it may be.  
« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2009, 03:43 PM by Steve » Logged

Linda
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 22, 2009, 04:15 PM »

Steve and Ari:

This is a very interesting topic.

Your quote Steve:  Its been said its possible for the 2nd stage spiritual to be navigated in ways that are less harmful to others than some of the well known extreme cases have turned into.

Could you please provide examples of extreme cases?  To me, Rajneesh who exhibited signs of spiritual arrogance was an extreme case.  And there were some pretty heavy things happening toward the end.
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adina
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 22, 2009, 04:38 PM »

Excellent explanations, Stacie and Steve. But just as a gentle reminder regarding these being "natural archetypes," Wolf also taught that, yes they were natural, BUT.... ONLY from the standpoint that we all go thru stages of growth - expansion of consciousness, not in how they manifest. The way the stages are currently defined --how they manifest--is due to our still living in a patriarchal reality. I.e., these particular explanations, only play out in a patriarchal setting; they would not manifest the same way when people are living by Natural Law. The stages themSELVES are natural, but how they are played out looks entirely different in a world of Natural Law, or one that is defined by giving, sharing and inclusion, rather than self-interest and exclusion.

Namaste

You have to keep in mind this is a natural archetype.  
« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2009, 04:54 PM by adina » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 22, 2009, 04:59 PM »

Hi Linda

Quote
Could you please provide examples of extreme cases?  To me, Rajneesh who exhibited signs of spiritual arrogance was an extreme case.

Yes, Rajneesh has always been on the list of examples of 2nd stage spiritual.  Clair Prophet and Ramtha have been mentioned, as has David Koresh (Waco).  I asked once about Elijah Muhammed, the founder of the Nation of Islam (Black Muslims), who appeared as a full blown vision when Malcolm X was in prison, and he was identified as 2nd stage spiritual.

The Pluto course transcript says, on how to recognize such people "there is a fundamental discrepancy between how they are conducting their personal life and the nature of their teachings".  (That of course applies to a whole range of modern day religious people and Senators, who are not 2nd stage spiritual.)  I'd say the point is, at times these people are indeed able to tap a place of deep spiritual truth/wisdom that few among us can experience, but its inconsistently applied.  There are always exceptions to the rules, and because of their pumped up self-declared state of evolution, they are exempt from the normal rules.  

The 2nd stage spiritual section of Pluto Vol 2 says  "truly God-realized Souls only point the way home, not to themselves".  When you combine the Leonian tendency in 2nd stage spiritual to feel one's own special brilliance with that statement, it makes it easier to identify those in 2nd stage spiritual.  They also feel an inner destiny/need to teach, so there are plenty of them around.  And because so many people feel desperate and lost, there is no shortage of students.

p.s.  I agree with what Adina wrote.  That is probably what was meant by it being possible to navigate the stage without harming so many people.  The problem is we live in a time of near-total patriarchy, so there aren't many around exhibiting the undistorted state of 2nd stage spiritual.  And people who do live from natural principles, regardless of evolutionary stage, tend to be very wounded from all they have been through in retaining their inner integrity.
« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2009, 05:06 PM by Steve » Logged

chuck h
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 22, 2009, 05:43 PM »

Where would you place Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon church, whose teachings (and revelations) have led millions to embrace family togetherness, geneology and adherence to the laws of the land with diligence and honor?
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Linda
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 22, 2009, 08:26 PM »

Steve,

I also remember that Da Free John was intellectually brilliant and a very powerful spiritual teacher. 
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adina
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 22, 2009, 08:42 PM »

Linda, this is another one, though, whom Wolf said was 2nd stage spiritual. He's also known as Adidam. As Steve pointed out, and as wolf taught in the original Pluto school, 2nd stage spiritual souls actually DO have some real God realization, and that's maybe why it can get confusing. Generally speaking, there are seven levels of Samadhi realization, and typically, one has made it through the first four by the end of 2nd stage spiritual.
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Linda
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 22, 2009, 09:28 PM »

Thank you Adina!   Cheesy

I do not doubt that they have attained some levels of Samadhi, for they do speak the truth. 

Is it not the Universal Spirit working through these 2nd stage spiritual teachers?  They are not as yet fully realized or purified.
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adina
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 22, 2009, 09:40 PM »

Yep, that's it exactly, Linda!   Wink
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ari moshe
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 22, 2009, 10:09 PM »

ah cool- adina do you have a recourse for teachings on the seven levels of samhadi?
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Lesley
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 22, 2009, 10:25 PM »

Hi Adina,

First of all, I want to say thank you for that beautiful interview you had with Kristin Fontana on Healthylife.net recently. I hope your good days far outnumber the bad.

I'd like to echo Ari's request for more information about the 7 levels of Samadhi. Is it possible for you to briefly list or give a short description of them? Do these 7 levels correlate in any way with the chakra system? (So interested to read more!)

On the subject at hand, I have known someone at the cusp of 1st stage Spiritual and 2nd stage Spiritual...she had incredible healing powers, had been able to heal others through prayer since age 5. She spoke of God all the time, BUT insisted that true healing came only through HER spiritual path/paradigm: she had THE one and only way to God, as far as she was concerned. She was quite aware of her talent and would keep her clients waiting for literally hours past their appointments (!), as if to create some kind of mystique around herself and/or bring the client's focus and attention back to her. When I told her about EA, she literally recoiled! "Stop! Just hearing about it makes me SICK!" she exclaimed to me. It is that total refusal to acknowledge and accept other perfectly valid paths to God (diversity itself is a Natural Law!) that is a hallmark of this evolutionary condition. That, and pointing to self as the path back to God, instead of pointing to God'dess and encouraging each individual to embrace his/her own natural way to spiritualize. It was quite a harrowing experience, but a very educational one at that.

Love and blessings to all,
Lesley
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Lia
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 23, 2009, 12:55 AM »


Hi Everyone,

I'd like to add a little to the above notes of Stacie, Adina and Steve which are correct in essence and very well describe the issue: the second stage spiritual although indeed leo-like, it is actually jupiter that manifest through this way...a personal identification with the 'truth'....as all souls have different unique nature it plays out differently BUT as to differentiate between the so called most  'severe' cases and some other, the truth is that this stage is also not one or two life times...it's far longer than that....

For example I personally totally agree that Eckart Tolle is typical 2nd stage spiritual BUT the soul hasn't reached yet the peak of the jupiterian exaggeration and personal identification with the 'ultimate truths'...but point IT WILL later on. The self confidence grows as the more intuitive perception merges with the truth and more and more people will listen to the soul.

On the other hand, Louise L. Hay is typically recovered from the 2nd spiritual in past lives and for long has been silent (6th house capr. s.node) before the soul reached the 3rd spiritual and assumed severe masochism/atonement before the soul allowed itself to teach people again in this life....only towards the second part of her life....she typically accepts all paths and points the way to the Source from within....

In my view it is NOT possible to skip the peak, simply because it comes out of the soul's desire to merge with the Source...the mistake is that (pluto, scorpio) the soul at first trying to 'take in' so to speak that what it feels the source is...and it indeed takes in so much and merges with the spiritual powers of the Source to the highest possible way RELATIVE TO TEH SOUL itself...but that's the problem the source is far more than any individual soul.......yet, this is simply the nature of how the soul is created....it HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS FINAL DISILLUSIONMENT that even it's soul is not 'it' .....of course it can't be for that's far less than the ultimate source that created the soul......but that leads to the jupiter stage, the exaggeration of the importance of the created soul and jupiter is identified at this stage within the piscean symbolism (the so called truths, becaue there is indeed truth in that...but not the whole lot..and so the personal identification with the ‘truths‘ ......it's specifically jupiter like....as the perception of the truths gets stronger and stronger and the virgo-like first spiritual grows into the jupiter like identification.....the soul needs to realise the fact that it is but A subjective consciousness even on the soul level.....the soul becomes aware of it’s own soul during the 1st stage spiritual...the second stage is about using the soul’s power not the immediate ego power, and YET because that will be used relative to the subjective identification of it's own ego's source as the specific soul (instead of the Source, that's the mistake) it will be still ‘egocentric’ in a different way....for sure the soul is closer to to the Source than the ego itself but it isn’t the Source....that’s the issue....missing one’s own soul and it’s realised spiritual powers with the Source....

The 2nd stage can not be completed unless it reaches it's jupiterian peak....so at the end it will be a blow and because the soul BELIEVES (jupiter) IN IT'S OWN MERGING WITH THE TRUTHS it simply can't help but will cause disillusionment to others....but it comes in stages, and there are many life times BEFORE and AFTER the peak within the 2nd stage..

Rajneesh for example is the peak time for the soul, and life times need to come to recover and lessen the tendency...it doesn’t come at once....for the soul at first isn’t fully aware what’s the problem it realises in stages....and just as every other stage it isn't wrong or right, it is both....it is necessary and natural.....the soul in the 2nd spiritual indeed teaches a lot of useful things but toward the peak it goes too far about it’s own soul level self-importance....nothing is black and white it just goes too far into that direction in order to realise the final obstacle ....it can't realise it unless this happens...it is simply impossible to realise once's soul level subjectivty unless the soul faces it directly....so it is a gift from the source so that the soul can indeed liberate (uranus) at the end once it realised the final problem.....it's own soul level subjectivity .....

It is all about the merging process, the pluto, scorpio process which needs to totally metamorphose BEFORE the real change can happen...i.e. instead of trying to take in the Source within one’s soul, (everything else till that point happens and need to happen this way that's the trick) yet at the end it needs to learn to do the opposite....to allow the Source to take the soul in and to allow it from it's own will....to ask for it instead of resisting it.....it's a paradox as the whole creation is based on the paradox itself the soul needs to go BACKWARD on that paradoxical gate .......till then all merging happens one way, at last the merging has to happen BACKWARD....this is what the soul needs to realise before it can fully enter the 3rd stage .....

After the peak of the 2nd spiritual the soul will be always shocked via a huge blow (uranus) via the objective reality (which really is the very force governed by the Source to embrace the objective reality that the soul missed out on even in the spiritual stage there is aspects of reality especially relative to the subjectivity of the soul that are illusionary, therefore there is an objective reality which will and have to shock the soul at one point) so that objective reality is not easy to take in and it takes time to go through that stage after the peak ......just as it takes time to reach the peak....like the Mormon leader typically reached the peak in that very life time when it became the known person .....There are aspects of REALLY valuable spiritual truths but that then leads to the personal identification with the truth....

The final realisation of the source is within pisces: the change from the piscean jupiter to the underlying neptune symbolised essence.....so not the truths themselves but what BEHIND the truths is the aim........what's behind jupiter in pisces is neptune....what‘s behind creation is the source and not creation and it‘s laws themselves....those are just the reflection...and reflection always has an element of illusion of course....the piscean jupiter is very close to the essence but not quiet ‘it‘.....

Like Wolf himself said he is at the beginning of the 3rd stage spiritual....and I think that's very true....symbolised by his 12th jupiter: that's what culminating and that's why it is square to natal pluto: the soul's desire to know the truth is stronger than the past identification 'with' the truth....and that's why the repetition in so many ways is present in the chart, like saturn is balsamic to pluto in the 9th, pluto is retro, so is venus that is square to pluto...along with jupiter and mercury.....sun is on s.node the whole life time is a repetition and of course the skipped steps with the moon which is the ruler of the 9th....the personal security patterns in the past have been rooted with the identification of the ‘truths‘ and the skipped steps of course involve uranus: the larger objective reality hits in as trauma on the n.node....and yet, that‘s the gift of the soul, although mars is opposite to it from the 2nd sag conj. s.node: that's the past resistance, there has been a relatively limited view of the truths (2nd house) but the soul is recovering and indeed the teachings in this life contain the essence of the truth in a way that truly serve people....so that the repetiton of the past brought the resolution and the soul has entered the 3rd spiritual and NOW able to teach in a different way....n.node is gemini in 7th: truly serving others....the skipped step is about the struggle how it happened in the 2nd stage.....the confusion etc. ...teachings happened in the past but it was different...of course contained truths, but after the peak the soul have chosen to shock itself and realise the final obstacle....the desire to merge with god is the same but the METHOD of how the soul does it changes after the last blow.....
That's why the soul had to face every of it's subjective 'hatred' like astrology itself, and become the very vehicle of that what has been resisted in the past....embracing the diversity (uranus in gemini on n.node) and recovering not only the soul's own skipped steps but understanding and sharing that understanding with others how the soul as a soul works and why etc. via EA....

I think the 2nd stage spiritual needs to be acknowledged as the necessariy past for this teaching to come along for example, and every other teachings that truly help humanity to evolve and find the Source...none of the true teachers can EVER get there unless they went through the 2nd stage and learned the final lesson....
I just feel it is important to understand and embrace so that even though during the PEAK time others can be repelled, but that doesn't mean the soul is 'wrong' and 'worst' than some others....it just as necessary as the everything else within creation.....the fruits of the 2nd is the 3rd.....the fruits of the consensus is the individuated, and so on....one step after another there is no way to skip any steps.....


Well at least that’s how I see it :-)

Hope I don't shock anyone with my aquarian views:-))

Blessings,
Lia
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2009, 04:28 AM by Lia » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 23, 2009, 03:25 AM »

Hi Chuck

Where would you place Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon church, whose teachings (and revelations) have led millions to embrace family togetherness, geneology and adherence to the laws of the land with diligence and honor?

I don't know enough about Smith's life and story to attempt determining his evolutionary stage through observation and correlation.  The other method is to look directly into his Soul, which process "is beyond my pay grade".

The paradigm of EA is based on the reality of Natural Law.  In that reality, the genders of male and female are simply two equal expressions of divinity - equal in every possible way - one and the same, in fact, just different expressions of the same One.  The teachings of Smith and the Mormon Church have not been aligned with that reality.  In our time, and for a long time now, neither are the teachings of any other major religion, in barely any culture or country on Earth.  

Given the cultural context of the times in which someone appears, it is possible for even a relatively evolved Soul to bring forth teachings that contain some patriarchal distortions - that in itself doesn't mean they are not evolved.  But distortions are distortions even if they come from someone relatively evolved, whether or not we like facing that.  In order to heal this great mess of dysfunction on Earth, distortions need to be NAMED as distortions, not glossed over, excused, or justified.

Distortions of natural law have caused great harm as the result of beliefs of all major religions, including the Mormon.  I do NOT mean by that statement that, as a result of containing distortions, there is no value at all in anything the Mormon church has ever taught or done.  That is not true.  However, to resolve violations of natural law, the dark side, the shadow side, of all people and all things must be faced.  Institutions, including the Mormon church, have a pretty poor track record of facing their shadow.  (As do people in general.)

Belief in patriarchal  man-made standards of good and bad, right and wrong, are the root cause of the shadow in the first place.  We disown parts of ourselves, split off from, feel guilt about, parts of self we have been taught are bad/wrong, and then project onto others these qualities that are actually within ourselves, since we ourselves can't own them. (Thus we have a family-values Senator who calls people out for sexual indiscretions having an affair with the wife of a good friend).  Institutions engage in this just as much as individuals do.  

These have consequences that affect the lives of others.  The church founded on Smith's teachings, and it did start with him, has a long history of favoring white males.  I realize it is never EXPRESSED in that way - to do so would be to face the shadow, which does not happen.  If you look into the history of the church - the role of women, the exclusion of people of color, it is prevalent.  The church, just last year, was the principle financier of the anti-gay marriage proposition in California, spending millions of dollars on this.

These distortions in the Mormon religion began with the institution of polygamy, and the belief that this is God's law/intent.  And this started with Joseph Smith.  Why would a natural God raise up one expression of itself and cast down another expression of itself?  These core, baseline distortions, over time multiply, as one distortion requires the creation of further distortions to justify the initial distortions.  As times goes on the number of distortions expands and expands - all created in the minds of humans, to control others, for the sake of personal power and authority, presented as being God's intent.  A god that itself is always conceptualized as a white male...

In order to get the political power they wanted, i.e. statehood, the Church elders renounced polygamy. Now, Smith taught that polygamy was God's intent.  How can you have a religion based on following God's intent and then swear off a major tenet of what God's intent is supposed to be just because it becomes politically expedient to do so?  Did God change His (hah!) mind?  If polygamy being God's intent had ever been true in the first place, how can you just change your mind about it?  Your religion is supposed to be God's will and intent.  So was it, or wasn't it?  Was Smith wrong about God's intent?  Were the later church elders wrong?  

Recognizing this hypocrisy within its own beliefs, a shadow side of the church came into creation - splinter groups who refused to disavow polygamy.  This then put the mainstream church in the position of having to disown these splinter groups, saying they are not a part of that church.  Yet they began WITHIN that church, and they would not exist at all if the original church teachings did not include polygamy.   This is a fabulous example of what I just said, about creating new distortions to justify or rationalize earlier distortions.

My point is, to me polygamy was never God's intent in the first place.  Nor was monogamy.   One size NEVER fits all in Natural Law.  Diversity is the fundamental law in Creation - any philosophy based on natural law acknowledges Diversity as its bottom line, #1 principle.

The way to know what is right for an individual is they just know within themselves what is right for them. They don't need an external church or belief system or teachers to tell them what is right, because each Soul can simply know within itself what is right for it.  And what is right can change over the course of a life.

What is "right" is based on the past and intended evolutionary future of that Soul.  And it is unique for each Soul.  For some polygamy could be "right", for some one women with multiple husbands, for some "standard" monogamy, for some marriage to a person of the same sex, for some no partner or family at all.   In natural law there are not judgments made on the forms through which diversity expresses itself.  The highest weight is placed on following what the person just knows within self is right for them, regardless of how unusual it may appear in comparison to the choices made by the majority.

I want to ask you, Chuck, why did you phrase your original question as you did?  Go back and look at it - your question is pretty much "leading the witness".  It clearly contains your views, and makes me think that consciously or otherwise you want an answer that is aligned with your beliefs.  Otherwise why would you word your question as you did?  You may or may not, on this board, get the answer you are expecting.  I hope you are prepared for that.
Steve
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2009, 04:15 AM by Steve » Logged

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