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ari moshe
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« on: Mar 06, 2012, 01:31 PM »

Hi Rad and community,

I want to check to see where I have misunderstood the Chiron archetype. In the mean time, for those who have bought my book, I have taken out the small section on Chiron until I am clear about my ea understanding of it.

Jeff Green has spoken a couple times in the archives about Chiron relating to pure masochism. My understanding is that this masochism arises from a strong guilt of somehow being innately not good enough - and thus through the Chiron archetype, a soul will manifest recurring situations/experiences in it's life that will seemingly affirm the reality of there "being something wrong with me" - this deepening the experience of being wounded in a core way.

On the flip side, Chiron will also correlate to the possibility and often the past karma of a soul creating such guilt and wounding for others. The nature of that would stem from a core denial of one's inner reality/condition by way of projecting that outwards towards others. This is how this would play out in patriarchal times where there are such strong distorted notions of absolute perfection and its implied polarity of fatal imperfection. The reality of having triggered wounding for others in the past can also be a cause for the Chrion guilt - and thus the psychological need to atone for that guilt.

The integration of the Chiron archetype in a healthy way seems to entail a process of step by step healing which directly necessitates doing that which brings up the most pain while so doing it. In so doing, the soul can receive the feedback/criticism of its environment and make necessary adjustments. Thus the soul learns to bridge a higher spiritual purpose into this world by consciously integrating that purpose in a way that is pragmatic and focused - all rooted in deep self acceptance. This produces in the end a great degree of compassion and ability to serve others, even in the midst of seemingly painful inner or outer circumstances. This can only be done through the vehicle of being willing and comfortable with one's own pain so that the Chiron work can evolve into selfless service without any martyrdom associated with it.

Is this general description an accurate ea understanding of Chiron? Thank you so much for whatever feedback you are called to offer Rad.
With love,
am
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Oliver Fred
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 06, 2012, 11:13 PM »

 Hi Ari,

I just had a little input from my own perspective to give. Chiron to me, and of course through the eyes of Steven Forrest and Jeff Green, seems to be the wound that won't heal. It's the (sorry for the language) son-of a-bitch asteroid that all of us wish didn't exist. It's the part that you keep giving that you don't know whether or not its been effective or not. You give and give, in that department, yet receive nothing for it. Jeff Green referred to his Chiron in Virgo and in "Measuring the Night" said how he had been exhausted by all the work he'd been doing. Steven Forrest, altough not a follower of this paradigm exactly, put it very plainly " It's not something you can understand when you're twenty four. You just can't." And this struck me. Even being a student of astrology, EA, I want to understand Chiron and be competant with it, but I just can't fully do it. I think this is one of the archetypes that ensures that young lads don't think they know everything. A close friend who grew up a skinhead and Neo-Nazi went to jail, turned to Jesus and now is persuing his Master's degree in Divinty- Sun conjunct Chiron. His pain is the doorway to reach others. He can identify with the pain and therefore actually be effective versus anyone else who "stays the path" then stands on a soapbox. Chiron seems to be a necessity, of which, only through trial does one know what that entails. I don't know about the masochistic part Jeff Green talked about, but it seems to reflect a cut that just won't heal, and that's how's it's going to be until we get a lot older. You can't heal this thing when you're young. God created the Uranus return for a reason.... My two cents. I strongly look forward to more information about Chiron! Take care!

- Oliver
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Rad
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 07, 2012, 07:45 AM »

Hi Ari,

Hi Rad and community,

I want to check to see where I have misunderstood the Chiron archetype. In the mean time, for those who have bought my book, I have taken out the small section on Chiron until I am clear about my ea understanding of it.

Jeff Green has spoken a couple times in the archives about Chiron relating to pure masochism. My understanding is that this masochism arises from a strong guilt of somehow being innately not good enough - and thus through the Chiron archetype, a soul will manifest recurring situations/experiences in it's life that will seemingly affirm the reality of there "being something wrong with me" - this deepening the experience of being wounded in a core way.

**********

JWG made a critical distinction relative to the archetype of masochism because it can have two distinct causes. One cause is what he, and others, call spiritual masochism wherein the Soul is consciously and with intent 'sacrificing' it's Soul for the benefit of others no matter what the personal cost to the Soul may be. The other cause is of course rooted in the need to atone for a sense of guilt because the Soul feels within itself that it has done something wrong which then necessitates the need to atone for that guilt. In both of these forms of masochism the  'wounding' that correlates with Chiron is thus based on the Soul having no boundaries or limits relative to the desire to help or heal others in the ways that are consistent with the evolutionary condition of the Soul: that which is possible because of the evolutionary condition or state of the Soul.

When Chiron is manifesting itself though guilt and the need to atone for that guilt it is imperative, for those who are working with Chiron, to understand the difference between 'learned' guilt and natural guilt. Learned guilt occurs when a Soul is subjected to all kinds of projected judgements from others where the nature of those judgements are rooted in artificial or man made laws that are temporal in nature. It can also occur by way of an inner self judgement as the Soul measures of judges itself against these same man made laws in which they forever come up short. In both cases this leads to the inner voice of 'there must be something wrong with me' in which the Soul then needs to 'atone' for which then leads to the masochism inherent within Chiron.

Natural guilt is a guilt that is rooted in that which is naturally right and wrong relative to all the Natural Laws that have been set in motion by the Creator in the first place. When a Soul transgresses these Natural Laws a state of natural guilt will occur. When this natural guilt manifests within the archetype of Chiron the need to atone for that natural guilt occurs. And that can then lead to the two forms of masochism that JWG taught.

When working with those who are manifesting psychological or pathological masochism relative to their Chiron it is imperative to help them understand the difference between learned guilt versus natural guilt. Natural guilt will always remain in the Soul because that is how the Soul learns to do what is inherently right and wrong according the the Natural Laws set in motion by the Creator. Learned guilt is that which can be jettisoned from the Soul because, after all, this type of guilt IS NOT NATURAL.

In this way a healing of the wounds that correlate with Chiron can occur.

It is also imperative that one understands the difference between pathological or psychological masochism versus what Green called 'spiritual masochism'. Spiritual masochism is a conscious choice by the Soul to sacrifice whatever wounds may occur to it by way of a pure giving to others ON THEIR BEHALF, ON GOD'S BEHALF. When this is the case it just is. There is nothing to heal or to change.


***************   

On the flip side, Chiron will also correlate to the possibility and often the past karma of a soul creating such guilt and wounding for others. The nature of that would stem from a core denial of one's inner reality/condition by way of projecting that outwards towards others. This is how this would play out in patriarchal times where there are such strong distorted notions of absolute perfection and its implied polarity of fatal imperfection. The reality of having triggered wounding for others in the past can also be a cause for the Chrion guilt - and thus the psychological need to atone for that guilt.

***********************

Yes. JWG was the only one to my knowledge that taught that Chiron can also correlate to the wounding of others that then leads to a necessary guilt, and the need to atone for it NATURALLY.

********************

The integration of the Chiron archetype in a healthy way seems to entail a process of step by step healing which directly necessitates doing that which brings up the most pain while so doing it. In so doing, the soul can receive the feedback/criticism of its environment and make necessary adjustments. Thus the soul learns to bridge a higher spiritual purpose into this world by consciously integrating that purpose in a way that is pragmatic and focused - all rooted in deep self acceptance. This produces in the end a great degree of compassion and ability to serve others, even in the midst of seemingly painful inner or outer circumstances. This can only be done through the vehicle of being willing and comfortable with one's own pain so that the Chiron work can evolve into selfless service without any martyrdom associated with it.

********************

This is essentially correct yet 'martyrdom' can also be a function of a Soul who has made a conscious choice to sacrifice itself on behalf of others no matter what the personal cost may be to the Soul who has made such a choice: spiritual masochism.

********************

Is this general description an accurate ea understanding of Chiron? Thank you so much for whatever feedback you are called to offer Rad.
With love,
am

God Bless, Rad
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Elen
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 07, 2012, 04:35 PM »



Yes. JWG was the only one to my knowledge that taught that Chiron can also correlate to the wounding of others that then leads to a necessary guilt, and the need to atone for it NATURALLY.

********************



Really interesting discussion.  Ari, thanks for asking these questions....And Rad, thanks for your answers.


Rad,

Could you give examples of NATURAL atonement.  This is something that feels unclear to me and would help me to better understand the difference between an unhealthy masochistic response to natural guilt vs a healthy response.

Thank you a million.

Elen
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Rad
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 08, 2012, 08:59 AM »



Yes. JWG was the only one to my knowledge that taught that Chiron can also correlate to the wounding of others that then leads to a necessary guilt, and the need to atone for it NATURALLY.

********************



Really interesting discussion.  Ari, thanks for asking these questions....And Rad, thanks for your answers.


Rad,

Could you give examples of NATURAL atonement.  This is something that feels unclear to me and would help me to better understand the difference between an unhealthy masochistic response to natural guilt vs a healthy response.

Thank you a million.

Elen

Hi Ellen,

It can be as simple as saying "I am sorry" to whatever the natural corrective action would be relative to the NATURE of the transgression of whatever Natural Law itself. If I steal something from you what would be the natural corrective action ? And so on ...........

God Bless, Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 08, 2012, 02:20 PM »

Hi Rad,

Quote
  In both of these forms of masochism the  'wounding' that correlates with Chiron is thus based on the Soul having no boundaries or limits relative to the desire to help or heal others in the ways that are consistent with the evolutionary condition of the Soul: that which is possible because of the evolutionary condition or state of the Soul. 

May we look at any chart to exemplify this dynamic?
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Elen
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 08, 2012, 07:10 PM »

Thank you, Rad.  Strikes me that part of the reason this might become so complicated is because everyone is wounded and reacting.  So someone might apologize sincerely, but harsh judgment might be the response.......... Pretty messed up world............

Peace,
Elen
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Rad
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 09, 2012, 08:17 AM »

Hi Rad,

Quote
  In both of these forms of masochism the  'wounding' that correlates with Chiron is thus based on the Soul having no boundaries or limits relative to the desire to help or heal others in the ways that are consistent with the evolutionary condition of the Soul: that which is possible because of the evolutionary condition or state of the Soul. 

May we look at any chart to exemplify this dynamic?

Hi Ari,

Do you mean you want to post a chart ? If so go ahead.

God Bless, Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 09, 2012, 08:56 AM »

Great, thank you - here is a chart I thought of because I know this person well:

« Last Edit: Mar 09, 2012, 09:04 AM by ari moshe » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 09, 2012, 09:38 AM »

It's clear from the chart there there is a lot of guilt this soul carries into this life. The question I'll ask for this thread is "what is the nature of this guilt? and why?" all relative to Chiron.

This Chiron is balsamic with the Sun and is trine the sn in Capricorn in the 5th which is ruled by Saturn in Cancer in the 11th. That Saturn along with the nn is ruled by the Moon which squares the nodes.

In prior lifetimes he has served a particular role and responsibility on behalf of others - perhaps at times during war - where he had a certain position and responsibility to perform. The phase between the sn and his Chiron Sun imply that he would have been very skilled at this and was very socially integrated (disseminating trine), however there was such great trauma that left him feeling incredibly alone - resulting in deep emotional shock. It's clear that he responded to that by ignoring those emotions and focusing on his responsibilities.

In this life he has manifested a family that creates immense demands of his time, body and skill. He has known himself to have a special purpose to perform through the work function (Virgo first house) and so that is where he puts all of his energy. Naturally however, he is facing the actual limitations of what is truly possible of him (Capricorn, aging). As that is happening he is sort of beginning to do less and most importantly learning to say no. It's almost though that when someone asks something of him he becomes like a switch that automatically says yes and tries to fulfill that request.

If he cannot do what he is asked, that is, if it's simply not possible for him to do what is asked (and he has a daughter that asks a lot of him) he is often apologetic to the one who asked as if now he owes them something.

He exemplifies an unnatural guilt rooted in the inner sense of not having done good enough, or not being good enough. If I understand this correctly, the wounding that this soul has created for himself is rooted in lacking awareness of what is actually possible for him - thus creating circumstances where he will act and do what he is simply not capable of.

Rad, do you have any guidance for understanding a greater scope of this Chiron? He also has the nodes of Chiron squaring his lunar nodes. This is all I can do for now - I may be back only after the weekend.
God bless
am
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Rad
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 10, 2012, 08:47 AM »

It's clear from the chart there there is a lot of guilt this soul carries into this life. The question I'll ask for this thread is "what is the nature of this guilt? and why?" all relative to Chiron.

This Chiron is balsamic with the Sun and is trine the sn in Capricorn in the 5th which is ruled by Saturn in Cancer in the 11th. That Saturn along with the nn is ruled by the Moon which squares the nodes.

In prior lifetimes he has served a particular role and responsibility on behalf of others - perhaps at times during war - where he had a certain position and responsibility to perform. The phase between the sn and his Chiron Sun imply that he would have been very skilled at this and was very socially integrated (disseminating trine), however there was such great trauma that left him feeling incredibly alone - resulting in deep emotional shock. It's clear that he responded to that by ignoring those emotions and focusing on his responsibilities.

In this life he has manifested a family that creates immense demands of his time, body and skill. He has known himself to have a special purpose to perform through the work function (Virgo first house) and so that is where he puts all of his energy. Naturally however, he is facing the actual limitations of what is truly possible of him (Capricorn, aging). As that is happening he is sort of beginning to do less and most importantly learning to say no. It's almost though that when someone asks something of him he becomes like a switch that automatically says yes and tries to fulfill that request.

If he cannot do what he is asked, that is, if it's simply not possible for him to do what is asked (and he has a daughter that asks a lot of him) he is often apologetic to the one who asked as if now he owes them something.

He exemplifies an unnatural guilt rooted in the inner sense of not having done good enough, or not being good enough. If I understand this correctly, the wounding that this soul has created for himself is rooted in lacking awareness of what is actually possible for him - thus creating circumstances where he will act and do what he is simply not capable of.

Rad, do you have any guidance for understanding a greater scope of this Chiron? He also has the nodes of Chiron squaring his lunar nodes. This is all I can do for now - I may be back only after the weekend.
God bless
am


Hi Ari,

The specific cause of the guilt in the current life have been caused by his most recent prior life in which he was responsible for the lives of a great many people and caused their deaths by not paying attention, having a spaced out moment, that then lead to their deaths. The resulting NATURAL GUILT manifested as a need/ desire to atone by way of helping as many people as he possibly could in anyway that he could: in his professional as well as private life. This desire linked with atonement thus created a Soul need to be needed by others in which he could then give to those others as if this excessive giving would somehow erase the deep inner guilt emanating from the trauma that he caused others in that life in which it occurred.

Prior to the past life in question this Soul had a series of lives in which it was exceedingly narcissistic because it knew that it has something special to do. This then created in those lives using others as props to his own sense of destiny and need to be special. In those lives, because of the inner orientation, many others, including those most important to him such as family, he attracted much criticisms whose essence was that he was not giving what others needed of him. And those criticisms were in fact true. He took those criticism to heart over time which lead to NATURAL GUILT in those lives. The subsequent need to atone for that guilt then lead into this most recent prior life in which he created a life of being responsible for so many by way of the work that he was doing. It was in that life that he then caused the great trauma of so many by not paying attention to the task at hand that then caused the great trauma to them.   

God Bless, Rad

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ari moshe
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 17, 2012, 06:51 PM »

Hi Rad, thanks for providing all that context.
I want to clarify, is the actual fact of having "spaced out" having caused the death of many people related to Chiron in Virgo squaring Uranus in Gemini in the 10th both of which ruled by Mercury which is also squared to that Uranus - producing a deep effect of seeking to find absolute self accuracy in how he articulates/executes his own actions and words within phenomenal reality?
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Rad
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 18, 2012, 07:46 AM »

Hi Rad, thanks for providing all that context.
I want to clarify, is the actual fact of having "spaced out" having caused the death of many people related to Chiron in Virgo squaring Uranus in Gemini in the 10th both of which ruled by Mercury which is also squared to that Uranus - producing a deep effect of seeking to find absolute self accuracy in how he articulates/executes his own actions and words within phenomenal reality?

Hi Ari,

That is part of it yet the root in which that part is connected lies in his S.Node in Capricorn in the 5th which is ruled by his Saturn in Cancer in the 11th that is then SQUARE his natal NEPTUNE and MARS. This natal Neptune and Mars is conjunct HIS S.NODE OF MERCURY which itself is square that Saturn. His natal Mercury in Virgo in his 1st then refers to this S.Node of Mercury that then connects to the part relative to the root. From an archetypal point of view this signature correlates to the interface between the short term memory, Mercury, and the long term memory symbolized by Uranus, the 11th House, and Aquarius. With Neptune's interaction in this interface we can then see the 'spacing out' between these two archetypes in such a way that paying attention to the immediate tasks at hand then can occur.

God Bless, Rad
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2012, 09:30 AM by Rad » Logged
Upasika
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« Reply #13 on: Mar 18, 2012, 05:06 PM »

Hi Rad,

I have a question here, but no rush at all (please) as I know you need to rest at the moment. So just whenever you have time and energy ....

I can see how he spaced out (Neptune in the root configuration you described) when looking after all those people (ruler SNode Sat in 11th), but how do you tell that that moment of spacing out lead to their deaths?

- is it because of the Neptune/Mars/Uranus/Lucifer configuration i.e Mars (being conjunct Neptune) is also trine Uranus (the group), and Mars rules Lucifer in 8th (death).

- and/or Saturn in 11th (the group) is inconjunct SNode of Neptune (in Aqu)?

.... or something else?

thank you

blessings Upasika
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Rad
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 19, 2012, 08:07 AM »

Hi Upasika,

Hi Rad,

I have a question here, but no rush at all (please) as I know you need to rest at the moment. So just whenever you have time and energy ....

I can see how he spaced out (Neptune in the root configuration you described) when looking after all those people (ruler SNode Sat in 11th), but how do you tell that that moment of spacing out lead to their deaths?

- is it because of the Neptune/Mars/Uranus/Lucifer configuration i.e Mars (being conjunct Neptune) is also trine Uranus (the group), and Mars rules Lucifer in 8th (death).

- and/or Saturn in 11th (the group) is inconjunct SNode of Neptune (in Aqu)? 
.... or something else?


**************

This is all part of that root. The root has the ruler of the S.Node, Saturn in Cancer in the 11th square the Mars/Neptune and S.Node of Mercury in Libra. The 11th house correlates to trauma to groups of an extreme nature when linked with the Libra symbols. This is restated with the ruler of that Saturn being the Moon/Venus in Libra in the 2nd, which is square the Nodes themselves, the N.Node being in the 11th restating the extremity of the trauma.

These planets are then conjunct both the S Nodes of Mars and Venus in Libra in that 2nd, and thus both of these Nodes also square the Nodal Axis of the Moon. The N.Node of Chiron itself is conjunct these South Nodes of Mars and Venus thus also square the Lunar Nodal Axis. The extremity of the trauma is now restated and magnified to the highest degree of extremity possible with all these symbols in mind.

Mars correlates to accidents in general which is these configuration correlates to accidents of an extreme nature leading to death relative to it's square to Saturn in the 11th, which is, again, restated with the South Nodes of Mars and Venus conjunct the Moon/Venus conjunction, the ruler of that Saturn, squaring the Lunar Nodes. Additionally, Mars is the ruler of the 8th House, Aries on the cusp, and of course the 8th correlates to death. Mars is also trining Uranus in Gemini in the 10th which, in this context, means sudden endings relative to accidents. With natal Mecury, Ceres, Jupiter and Chiron all in the natural Aries House squaring this Uranus this is just magnifying even more this signature to the maximum degree possible. And Uranus is the ruler of the S.Node NEPTUNE in the 6th.

The South Node of Chiron itself is in Taurus in the 9th which of course is ruled by the Moon/Venus in Libra conjunction in the 2nd. One of the archetypes of the 9th house is one of being 'absent minded' due to drifting off within the intuitive/ right brain. The additional conjunction of the North Node of Chiron with these South Nodes of Mars and Venus means that this Soul survived, 2nd House correlates to survival, that accident that he was responsible for creating that then lead to of course desiring to atone for it.

And that desire to atone itself correlated with the opposite extreme of now desiring of wanting to help others in anyway possible by putting others before himself as a reaction to those lives of living within a psychologically enclosed reality of narcissism.


***********


God Bless, Rad
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