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Cypress
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« on: Jun 20, 2012, 04:05 PM »

I'm having a difficult time understanding the nature of the 8th house, both natally and in synastry. It seems troublesome and difficult, and I'm wondering what the benefits to a heavily aspected 8th house, in either situation are.
I'm re-reading the chapter in the first Pluto book on the 8th house/scorpio, but any other recommendations that may help me understand better and not feel so overwhelmed would be helpful. My 8th house isn't aspected at all, perhaps that's why it's so easy for me to count it as negative and intimidating...? I'm trying to work my way through each house one by one for a complete understanding, but I'm stuck right now.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 21, 2012, 07:11 AM »

Hey Cypress,

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I'm having a difficult time understanding the nature of the 8th house, both natally and in synastry. It seems troublesome and difficult, and I'm wondering what the benefits to a heavily aspected 8th house, in either situation are.

As always with any placement - there are no innate "benefits" or otherwise since the chart itself is a reflection of the soul's karmic and evolutionary dynamics and everything that happens in a person's life comes from that inner condition. Within the 8th house the dynamic of choice is emphasized. Choice relating to whether or not to evolve. Taking in the entire context, planets or signs on the 8th house, including the planetary ruler of that sign on the 8th house and aspects to that planetary ruler will correlate with how the soul can resist or cooperate with evolution according to the needs of the current life.

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My 8th house isn't aspected at all, perhaps that's why it's so easy for me to count it as negative and intimidating...?

Try looking at the sign on the 8th house cusp and the condition of the ruler of that sign. What karmic dynamics are implied - what kind of evolutionary purpose does that point to in the current life?

I have Aries on the 8th with Mars in Libra in the 1st. Right now transiting Pluto is squaring that Mars which points back to the natural placement of Aries on the 8th house. My Mars is ruled by Venus which is naturally conjunct Pluto. What have I been experiencing during this time? So many people with various needs have been seeking my attention and lots of projections as well - and my lesson has been to weed out my own relationship patterns that distract me from that path I know I am here to walk - so I can do what I am here to do (Aries) and to also counsel and be in a relationship with others in a way that is balanced according to my evolutionary purpose in this life.

Did that answer your question? With love,
am
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2012, 07:38 AM by ari moshe » Logged
Cypress
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 21, 2012, 01:54 PM »

It certainly helped  Smiley

I read in the post on Suicide and Trauma that an emphasized 8th house/Scorpio is ONE indicator of dealing with suicide or suicidal thoughts. So, you're saying that an emphasized 8th house/Scorpio in the chart can also show a person who is working to evolve and regenerate, not just that they will suffer issues around suicide and trauma? So many of the things I read concerning the 8th use words like "obsession" and "trauma" that I've found myself stuck on those terms!
I understand that there are no "benefits or otherwise", but perhaps one positive to having your 8th house emphasized would be the ability to regenerate? Or at least to face the challenge to regenerate? (I'm trying to focus on the term "regenerate" if you haven't noticed  Smiley )

In truth, the 8th house scares me. I"m just trying to relate to it. My 8th is ruled by Pisces, but I've never looked into how my planets interact with that cusp/house, though I do know I have no planets in Pisces. I'll start studying that now.
Thank you  Smiley
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Steve
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 21, 2012, 06:52 PM »

Hi Cypress

Anyone with an emphasized 8th house or Scorpio is going to have an inherent deep desire to EVOLVE as the 8th house and Scorpio and Pluto correlate to the Soul itself.  Evolving requires facing many things about one's self, and life overall, that are not always easy to face and accept. As a result, a person may have developed a deep habit of resisting intended evolution, trying to get away, avoid, this type of experience.  That is when all of the negative qualities of Scorpio can manifest. 

If the person makes the decision to accept they are here to work, to grow, and cooperates with the sometimes difficult experiences that arise in the life, they are going to actualize the positive tendencies of Scorpio.

Obsession and compulsion are typically caused by subconscious memories within the Soul that the ego/personality is not at present remembering.  The Soul is seeking to understand what has happened to it along its journey, and why, to resolve those issues, so it focuses on them.  The difficult growth experiences that come along are often necessary to blast the personality open so it can expand to a greater depth of conscious recognition and remembrance.  They may not be easy at times but they are very effective.

Scorpio/8th house has little time for superficial or pleasantries.  It wants to get right to the point.  Whether that is seen as good or not depends on one's values.  It is neither.  It is simply the way the Scorpio energy tends to manifest. 

Suicide is an extreme example of Scorpio energy.  Its not especially common so keep that correlation in perspective.

Scorpio is the place where we can come face to face with our Soul, and the limits of the individual Soul/Personality.  At its worst it can be black magic and ruthless domination and control over others - sucking the power out of others and into self.  At its finest it can be a near-complete merging with another, the mutual experience of two Souls feeling almost as one, deeply developed self-awareness of the Soul.  Which way it goes depends on the choices one makes.
hope this is useful
Steve
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ari moshe
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 22, 2012, 09:01 AM »

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So, you're saying that an emphasized 8th house/Scorpio in the chart can also show a person who is working to evolve and regenerate, not just that they will suffer issues around suicide and trauma?

Yes

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So many of the things I read concerning the 8th use words like "obsession" and "trauma" that I've found myself stuck on those terms!

We'd always have to ask "why" would there be trauma or obsession - everything in the end points back to the desire nature of the soul. And so if something horrible happens, why is that? The point is to come back to ourselves and ask ourselves what this is showing us about ourselves. So we can become conscious of our desires for that which is not absolute. This leads to regeneration - which is evolution. Out with the old, in with the new - we vibrate closer and closer to source.

We can also continually resist such self awareness and not grow - this will naturally attract more cataclysmic/challenging events into our life - and if resistance to growth continues that will breed a natural psychology of victimization. And victims are the scariest and most fragile people out there. This is ultimately where the possibility of evil comes in.

And as Steve spoke of it there are truly two polarities to the Scorpio/8th house/Pluto archetype - all dependent on choice. One is the growing closeness to Source. The other is growing resistance/separation from Source.

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I understand that there are no "benefits or otherwise", but perhaps one positive to having your 8th house emphasized would be the ability to regenerate? Or at least to face the challenge to regenerate? (I'm trying to focus on the term "regenerate" if you haven't noticed)

Right, not positive, but rather reflecting where the soul has in some way reached a limitation in their growth relative to their separating desires. And thus the OPPORTUNITY based on choice to evolve and move beyond those limitations.
With love,
am
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Bradley J
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 22, 2012, 10:30 AM »

Just to add another perspective to what Steve and Ari are saying, the whole archetype of 8th house, Scorpio and Pluto is where anyone/soul meets their limits, what they can and can not be.  What they are and what they are not.
It is where one experiences their power and their powerlessness.

The suicide link is all about that limit - limit of power - when the soul has experienced total powerlessness over lifetimes, the CHOICE MAKING that then comes as a response to those events - one path could be suicide, one path could be seeking power - the pendulum swings....   
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Cypress
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 23, 2012, 10:58 AM »

You are all so helpful! It's definitely becoming more clear, so thank you for the replies. I'm beginning to notice all the contacts Pluto makes in my chart and how that relates to what you've shared about the 8th house.

I'll keep reading. Thank you again for your help, it's made a difference for me.
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Cypress
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 23, 2012, 11:04 AM »

Also, I noticed that Neptune, the ruler of my 8th house, is in a loose conjunction with my Sun. While I'm not sure exactly what that means, I genuinely appreciate that you pointed it out, because now I have something else to read and study that will help me put this 8th house issue into context on a personal level.

I plan on taking the course as soon as my current schooling is finished and I have the money and time. Until then, thanks for your patience and input.
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Bradley J
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 26, 2012, 07:53 PM »

Hi Cypress

Since these posts, I’ve been revisiting the archetypes as they connect to suicide.
So, it has been clear Scorpio/8th/Pluto is the main archetype that is highlighted with suicide.

Certainly, there is a lot of psychological “stuff” that will be tapes running through the consciousness of anyone who has or is seriously considering or desiring to commit suicide.  When reflecting on the rest of the archetypes in this light, what came to me was:

Capricorn/10th/Saturn - can connect with a sense of futility, deep sorrow, and defeat. Impossible hurdles to jump.   “It’s just not worth it anymore” - it is one possible manifestation.  You can see how this psychology will often tie into suicide.  So, we would look at planets in Capricorn or the 10th house, planetary south nodes in the 10th house, saturn and it’s aspects, etc.

Aries/1st/Mars - the natural inconjunct of Aries to Scorpio correlates to the crisis of aligning individual desire with soul desire.  On a conscious level, this crisis can manifest as the anger and frustration of feeling powerlessness in acting upon one’s desires.  When we are talking about the desire to kill oneself, this is the destructive side of this archetype in a negative manifestation.   To take such action upon oneself, would require a great amount of courage.  There have been more unsuccessful attempts than not.  So, within the psychology of suicidal thoughts, we look to this archetype and consider where is there anger, frustration, and what desires have not been acted upon and why.

Virgo/6th/Mercury -  the psychological manifestation of this archetype of someone who is suicidal could be seen linked to negative self image(self image specifically ties to moon/cancer/4th).
We could see somewhere in the chart symbols that correlate to the tapes running through the consciousness which JWG taught about - “I desire pain and suffering”  or “I am not worthy” or “I have screwed up , carry deep guilt, and need to atone for this”  “I will never be good enough”  etc.   So, if you combine this consciousness with the futility of the Cap/10th/Saturn archetype, at some point someone feels they do not have the energy to carry on, that they can not make right what they have done.   Or, they could have the anger response combined with futility.  It can be both simultaneously - anger and low self esteem.   

Pisces/12th/Neptune - reaching the place of even considering suicide reflects the soul is in a deep state of delusion.  The so called ‘reality’ of this world has taken full weight and gravity in the consciousness.  This archetype, in it’s link to denial, avoidance, confusion and delusion all come up with someone in at the point of suicide.  In an ultimate sense, the trials and tribulations of soul evolution through incarnations have led into a consciousness which is blinded to the real purpose for being alive. 

Taurus/2nd/Venus - the polarity Scorpio directly correlated with death(and birth)  In polarity, in EA, Taurus is survival.  To end one’s life could involve Venus, 2nd house, and Taurus; what we’d be looking for is an archetypal combination that suggests the opposite of survival.  For example, a close friend committed suicide at Pluto was exactly conjunct his natal Venus.


Just some more ‘happy thoughts’ on the topic (JWG quote), surely not all encompassing. 
Hope this is helpful.
Be well,
Bradley
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Cypress
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 26, 2012, 08:56 PM »


Thank you Bradley,
it does help, and it's incredibly interesting. The 6th house/Virgo archetype is another one I'm hung up on, but the 8th house/Scorpio is just...scarier, I guess...

I've noticed through my studying this 8th house stuff that my oldest brother, who I'm closest to, has a Pisces stellium that fills my 8th house. It's hard to find information on synastry that doesn't talk about sex (ESPECIALLY when it comes to the 8th) but I do know that he is what initiated my interest in astrology, tarot and earth-centered religions, which seems applicable to 8th house synastry. Having someone/thing positive and encouraging to relate to the 8th has made it a little less daunting to study! My brother is easily the most important male figure in my life, and I can see how our interaction has  activated 8th house stuff for me, especially since my 8th is empty natally.

It's also a relief to see how complex an issue suicide is when it comes to astrology. My mind knows clearly that you can't just look at an 8th house/Scorpio stellium and expect a suicide, but like I said, majority of the stuff I read is so negative and frightening it was hard not to be overwhelmed by it Wink
There are so many things to piece together when looking at a chart...so many tiny little parts that make up the whole, that I'm trying my best not to get bogged down on one thing or another. I want the purest understanding of each archetype possible, and that is taking a significant amount of time for me. The idea that after this I'll have to understand all the aspects makes me nervous!! But I look forward to the lengthy study. At least I know I'll be busy for the rest of my life trying to learn.
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Bradley J
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 27, 2012, 09:36 AM »

Hi Cypress,

Just a note of clarification in mental review of what I last wrote.   I realized it can be confusing to the archetypes in written word and not fully clarify - as I see I did this with Virgo. 
First, the whole phenomena of how many suicides presently is going to be linked both with 'Age of Patriarchy' - which is a distortion of the Cap/10/Saturn archetype and then presently we are in the 'Sub-Age of Virgo' relative to the Pisces Age.  Jeff spoke of this present age and his efforts to aid in the collective purging of the archetype of sado-masochism from the collective consciousness.  This is really relevant because we are looking at these archetypes in light of suicide being prevalent phenomena that links to the ages and times we are in.
So, just to say, these sides of the archetypes are present distortions linked with the past and present; not the pure archetypes and have not and will not always manifest as such.  Perhaps you are well aware of this, but I did want to clarify myself.

So, in light of this, I realize that my description of Virgo archetype was lacking in clarity due to wording.
Specifically, the dual manifestions just from this archetype in distorted forms would be the spectrum of sado-masochistic pathology.  I was sensing that heavier on the masochistic side would be more common in suicide, however surely there is a blend, as I have seen it myself.   
Then, when I said self esteem in the Virgo section and earlier tied it to self image - all this would suggest a combination may be happening in some suicide cases(and I'm not saying all) where this distorted manifestation of the Virgo archetype is then linked to self image or self esteem.  This, respectively is the moon and venus, 4th and 2nd, cancer and taurus side of venus - and this could be the ruler of the south node in the 6th house; mercury in gibbous inconjunct to south node or moon; moon gibbous inconjunct to venus; venus mars gibbous phase; virgo on 2nd, venus in 6th, sn venus in 6th, etc....
The observation and correlation will need to happen.

Hope this is more clear. 
Thanks for sharing.
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