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Author Topic: New ea practice thread for beginners  (Read 20620 times)
ari moshe
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« Reply #75 on: Sep 13, 2012, 08:02 AM »

Hello Henrik, once again thank you for your participation here. Everything you wrote is accurate for this signature.

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Hi Ari and everyone.

Sn 3rd house/Pluto 7th house:
The Soul is coming from a series of lives in which it has programmed a persona who has gathered and ordered information in order to expand it’s knowledge of the mind and by doing so to feel secure. In this life the person is drawing upon a series of lives where the soul has desired to learn how to be in relationships with other in order to be able to listen to itself (PPP) and as a byproduct (by being able to stay true to itself) be able to give to others according to their reality (for good or for worse).

On the way, the persona that has been created has approached relationships in a mental fashion and communication as well as media (I guess even in the “old days” they had some media) has been how it has the person has expanded its data banks. To give an example, it’s possible that the person has taken in information from other people on how other they involve themselves in relationship (2nd hand knowledge…gathering opinions) and have tried to apply this in their own relationship.

Excellent. This can then manifest in 1 of 2 ways. Either this soul, according to the knowledge they have absorbed, is strongly identified with various ideas about how to be in relationship to the point that they become closed off to more information to the extent that they have become fixed and strongly identified with what they already know. This can then manifest as various confrontations in relationships where it's ideas, which to the soul are logically sound and rational, are confronted with the actual needs/reality of the partner that cannot be explained or understood within the mental framework that has been established.

In another way this could also be a soul that has absorbed knowledge from its environment, in what ever way, and is still open to the expansion of that knowledge. This soul would then exemplify the capacity to listen to various perspectives and to truly consider them. This would make this soul a natural counselor type person that has a great capacity to listen deeply to any perspective/dynamic and understand the bottom line.

This soul may study (3rd house) any environment (3rd house) all as ways to collect more data relative to it's bottom line: relationships. An example of that would be to study the natural world and to consistently ask questions relative to its bottom line. "How do [these] animals meet one another's needs / how do they communicate their needs / how do various species work out differences in needs in their relationships?" etc...

For this soul, any study can get very specific and focused. The limitations in this soul occur as soon as it becomes identified with the established intellectual constructs and projects that or defends that in its relationships.


It’s possible that some of its relationships have been where the Sn in the 3rd person feels that the other person have new information that can be of interest to the person (however, not in a Sagittarius way). In any way, because of the trine between the 3rd and 7th house, it has probably been easy for this person to listen and hear other peoples viewpoints in a relationship.

Yes, and the trine also means it would be easy to not listen.

This is not to say that the person has operated with the best of intentions and the possibility of manipulation is of course there. So you could still have the different scenarios that JWG speaks about (Pluto in the 7th house). In essence what you have is a series of lives in which the person has sought a variety of relationships in order to expand on its knowledge through linear train of thought and where it has learned how to listen (thus decreasing its reactive tendencies) to other within relationships.

Within this, ther is a spectrum of possibilities as to how this person has used this ability. The person could have manipulated relationships (by playing back the other persons reality while pushing it’s own agenda) or it could have done pretty much the same thing but to be subservient in a relationship…and all facets in between.
I know this isn’t a full exploration of the spectrum of possibilities of these three achetypes (Pluto, 7th house, and 3rd house), but I just wanted to post something to see if I’m on the right track here.

Yes you definitely are.

Thank you for this possibility.

All the best,
Henrik

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #76 on: Sep 13, 2012, 08:25 AM »

Hi Gray,

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Ari, thank you for your feedback.  I did realize after writing that I had focused too much on the 9th house and the Pluto polarity point, instead of just focusing on the 3rd house. I'll work on having better focus with that as I am writing- figured I might as well just share what I wrote, though.

Funny about your comment about intuition and the body- after reading that, I realized I have a combination of Sagitarius and Virgo in my own chart so I was probably speaking more from my own experience there.

I really appreciate the focus you are giving to the 3rd house past pattern influence.  Its insightful how you described the pattern of how the 3rd south node/7th pluto would be trying to please a partner more so than expressing self-needs, and how that leads to dependencies in relationship.  It is illuminating for me to think about the difference in meaning from wording it the way you did instead of using the word "repress" like I did- I get what you mean by this, and I think that is a fundamental 3rd House issue.  Especially in combination with a 7th house Pluto, there is the ability to figure out the projected needs and expectations of a partner and then try to fit in with it through the 3rd house patterns, even being able to mutate and change as the partner's expectations change.  This is a fundamental problem as the 3rd house south node/7th house Pluto person is not being truly authentic, so in some way or another they will eventually disappoint the partner most likely since they are not truly being authentic in the way they are going about meeting the needs of their partner, and they will also catalyze their own 7th house Pluto issues- they are not being honest with themselves or honestly stating their own needs, so they will most likely not have their needs met in their relationship, and all sorts of difficult back and forth projections in the relationship can ensue between the partners, with the attraction/repulsion aspect of the 7th house Pluto getting very much involved. 

The "dependencies" aspect here can be a real problem, including that the 3rd house pattern has led them to foster a dependency with their partner, and since they haven't honestly been expressing their own needs or thinking in complete truth, sooner or later its going to come out that the partner can't really be dependent upon them for meeting their expectations and since a dependency has been developed it will make this issue all the more intense.  The flip side being that as has been mentioned, they can also be effective counselors, listeners, and mirrors to others in relationship- however, unless they are working on the 9th house nodal direction and Pluto relationship issues, there can be some of these difficult dynamics developing in the relationship.

I also appreciated your feedback about how curious 3rd house south node people can be, and that with the 7th house Pluto this will lead to a lot of social engagement they ultimately find to be exhausting, which then leads to them needing time alone to recharge.  This also makes me think of how they will probably tend to be attracted to relationships based upon a mental aspect, and if they are staying in a 3rd house pattern of relating this could mean they could remain more reactive in interactions and also be done with the relationship once they move on to being interested in different mental concepts they can find in other relationships.

That's a really good point.

When they meet someone that they feel can cause them some mental growth- this could be about learning more about a subject they are already interested in, or it could be from a sense that a potential relationship carries information that is confrontational and disruptive to their thinking but that there is an attraction for engaging it because of the subsequent growth it will cause mentally-  they could then use a 3rd house ability to figure out how to engage the new relationship and then also continue it by fitting in with the mental frameworks of the conversations.  If they have a tendency to be reacting, it could be even be with someone with whom they tend to have intense arguments that are nonetheless dramatic and compelling to participate in.  If they aren't evolving out of a purely mental attraction like this in relationships, they could then have a tendency to move on to other relationships once they no longer feel the need to learn about the mental information or philosophy the previously compelling relationship was providing for them. 

A positive flip side to this could be if they are a writer or journalist or filmmaker or artist or someone communicating through the media- in this way they could be in a constant process of picking up fascinating information around them and then communicating it out to the world, able to quickly move from relationship to relationship to help get the information they feel compelled to communicate through media.  In any case though, if they aren't taking care of their own true needs but instead maintaining a heavy expression of curiosity focused upon absorbing mental information from others, they are definitely going to end up being exhausted! And then need to pull back from relationships to re-center if they want to gain more of a center- would this also be a movement to the 9th house in some ways?

Not necessarily. Unless there is a desire to evolve, to examine one's inner dynamics, backing off from relationship can be just that. The cycle of getting very immersed, becoming overwhelmed and then backing off can be a part of a reactive and unconscious cycle.

Just trying to focus more on a pure 3rd house direction- let me know if I'm off with this at all.

It was all on to me. Thank you for these further insights.

love, Gray

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #77 on: Sep 13, 2012, 08:37 AM »

Hi Kora,

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Hi again to All,

I was just reflecting on the the differences regarding the skill of listening as it applies to the Gemini and Libra archetypes and maybe others have further thoughts or insights....It seems to me that while Gemini can appear to be a good listener and is usually a good communicator the motivation is very different from Libra and this is what can make a Gemini listener very misleading to others....

Gemini is motivated by the need to expand information/ego via  their relationship to physical phenemonal reality....they would probably be just as happy not relating to others at all if the information could come from a book or some other experience....Gemini is a very social archetype but the reason is for logical information gathering/ expansion....is this correct?

Yes very well put

 If they have unresolved ego agendas in this information seeking pursuit then their listening skills can be very misleading to others in that others think they are interested in them....however their interest is not actually in personal relationship with others.

Yes, very true. As we know this can mean using another as a backboard for processing/organizing/figuring out their own thoughts, communicating with another just to acquire more knowledge that the soul has become fixated on, or talking just to prove a point etc...

  On the other hand for Libra the soul desire/egoic need is to relate to others in a balanced personal way.  Its kind of paradoxical to me that someone with Pluto/Libra if they have unresolved ego agendas might externally appear to others to be far worse at listening and relating than Gemini yet their authentic desire would be to learn to listen in a balanced way and to respond to others according to what they need because they are striving to know themselves through finding balance in relationship.  Just some thoughts for whatever they are worth....correct me if I am off base here.

Thanks for these additional insights Kora.

Kora

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #78 on: Sep 13, 2012, 08:57 AM »

Hi all, before we move on to add the north node and polarity point, I will wait another day or two to see if any further interpretations or questions wish to be posted here. Thank you again to everyone for your efforts here.

Tori, Paula and Robbyn let me know if you still intend to post here.

With love
Ari Moshe
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robbyin
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« Reply #79 on: Sep 15, 2012, 09:09 PM »

Hello Everyone and thank you for keeping the thread going.

Ari I am going to view from the side lines for now, but it would be appreciated if you could succinctly summarize what has been said up to this point regarding the bottom line of Pluto's placement in the 7th house, its Polarity Point and the South Node in the 3rd house. So much has been said, that the 'thead" has fallen out of the needle for me. In gratitude, robin
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ari moshe
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« Reply #80 on: Sep 16, 2012, 07:49 AM »

Hi Robbyin, I wont do that - the content is definitely here. Pretty much everyone's post was accurate, so whatever you read will give you the right direction for understanding this approach. I understand the feeling of the thread falling out of the needle very much.

For now all that was addressed was Pluto in the 7th via the sn in the 3rd house. Some people chose to add the polarity point and the north node, however that is what we are going to look at next.
With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #81 on: Sep 16, 2012, 08:04 AM »

Hello everyone,
Now we will move on to address specifically the nature of this soul's evolution in the current life.

The north node symbolizes the egocentric structure that allows for evolution to occur. It is who the soul begins to know itself to be as a reflection of it's desire to grow, to evolve. The north node defacto activates the Pluto polarity point.

Just as there are many possible expressions of how this 7th house Pluto has operated through the south node, so to there are many psychological dimensions to explore relative to the north node and the polarity point..

Thank you all again for your participation here! And as always, the value is in the effort.
God bless, with love
Ari Moshe
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Henrik
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« Reply #82 on: Sep 17, 2012, 09:47 AM »

Hi Ari and all.
A few questions…hope I’m not rambling and hope they are clear enough to be answered Smiley.
Is the Sn/Nn a more conscious process (at least in many people) than the Pluto process and can it be said that the Sn/Nn process is our conscious way of acting on the desires of the soul (even though one may not know the Soul’s desires)? (Here I’m not referring to the instinctive acting out the desires of the soul (Mars) ).
As far as the nodal axis, is it correct to view the shift from Sn to Nn as a way to express the abilities/qualities that one has earned in the past ( i.e. Sn) in a new way, but that we first have to embrace the Nn qualities wholeheartedly (setting aside the Plut Sq the nodes situation). The reason I ask this is because with Pluto, there is a metamorphosing (progressive or cataclysmic), but should we view the shift from Sn to Nn in the same way.
In other words, is there a difference in the dynamic between going from Sn to Nn vs. going from Pluto to it’s PPP?

All the best, and thank you once again for this opportunity,
Henrik
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ari moshe
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« Reply #83 on: Sep 17, 2012, 11:05 AM »

Hi Henrik,

Quote
Hi Ari and all.
A few questions…hope I’m not rambling and hope they are clear enough to be answered .
Is the Sn/Nn a more conscious process (at least in many people) than the Pluto process and can it be said that the Sn/Nn process is our conscious way of acting on the desires of the soul (even though one may not know the Soul’s desires)?

Yes that the sn/nn is conscious. The last statement however does specifically refer to Mars. That is exactly what the function of Mars is about.

The nodes are the filter of the soul through which it's desires become actualized via the specific KIND OF IDENTITY that will allow for the actualization of those desires. A way to tangibly understand this, to think of this outside of astrology for a moment, is that everyone in the world has some sort of self image. That self image, ego, is a reflection of what? The inner underlying desires.

So yes the nodes are predominately conscious, while Pluto is predominately unconscious and yet in the final analysis, they are inseparable. This is because the conscious self image of the soul is a reflection of it's inner desire nature. This is why EVERYONE no matter what stage of evolution they are at, has an ego that is a reflection of their evolutionary stage. And for everyone, that ego is in constant flux to reflect the soul's own evolutionary progress (or lack thereof).


(Here I’m not referring to the instinctive acting out the desires of the soul (Mars) ).

As far as the nodal axis, is it correct to view the shift from Sn to Nn as a way to express the abilities/qualities that one has earned in the past ( i.e. Sn) in a new way, but that we first have to embrace the Nn qualities wholeheartedly (setting aside the Plut Sq the nodes situation). The reason I ask this is because with Pluto, there is a metamorphosing (progressive or cataclysmic), but should we view the shift from Sn to Nn in the same way.

As always I'll answer according to what I understand. We don't "shift" from the sn to the nn - just as much as no identity is absolute and static as in "Yesterday I had a 3rd house ego, now I have a 9th house ego". Evolution can take place in many layers, stages, throughout a single lifetime as a reflection of the inner desire nature of the soul. Everything truly comes back to desire.

There are many layers to uncover as we access more of the north node kind of ego - all as a reflection of the soul working through it's unresolved desires and generating new ones that are more pertinent to it's evolution. It's pretty much ongoing.

However each case is unique. For example, sometimes the south node symbolizes a relive dynamic - ie something that needs to be re-addressed in order to be resolved in the current life. Or it can symbolize special gifts that the soul is here to actualize. Either (or both) of these scenarios are the case when Pluto or any planet is conjunct the sn. In a case like that the soul is required to work through the sn dynamics directly. This is totally inconsequential to the north node; it has to be focused on entirely on its own.

And yes, the nodes can definitely correlate to evolutionary catalysts (progressive or cataclysmic). Since they are the vehicle for the soul, they will trigger the core evolutionary issues.


In other words, is there a difference in the dynamic between going from Sn to Nn vs. going from Pluto to it’s PPP?

As I understand it, they are inseperable - except in the various cases where we have Pluto squaring the nodes with Pluto applying to the sn, or when Pluto is conjunct the north node.

All the best, and thank you once again for this opportunity,
Henrik

Thanks for your questions Henrik, please feel free to ask more about this. And I wholeheartedly invite any other experienced ea folk to offer perspective, for this or any other questions.

With love,
Ari Moshe
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kora
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« Reply #84 on: Sep 17, 2012, 01:39 PM »

Hi Everyone,

Here is my attempt to integrate what we have so far:

This soul in the past has desired to know itself through a variety of relationships seeking to find balance and to learn how to listen and give to others what they need (Pluto 7th).  They have done this via a logical mental egoic framework seeking relationship to understand or expand or clarify their understanding of themselves in relationship to physical phenomenol reality (3rd).  Certain relationship imbalances, compulsions, limitations have occurred through egoic insecurity where they have been clinging to what has been familiar and resisting growth in new directions such as co-dependency patterns, unconscious projections on others, patterns of dominance or submission in relationships....In this life the soul intent is for freedom and independence and focus on themselves to expand their ego and learn about their own values (PPP 1st).  This is done through instinctual action towards whatever interests them so that ultimately their relationships can be approached through choice rather than need.  They will have drawn to themselves various challenges or confrontations in order to be conscious of this intent.  This person in the past (3rd) might have been very adept at communication or not and they might or might not have been a good listener....they might have been reactive or defensive with others because of locked in points of view or they might have been deceitful regarding their true agendas.  They may have become very scattered and exhausted from taking in too much information which they have not integrated and perhaps have been depending on their partner to find their own center.  Growth will occur as this person makes conscious choices to find a unifying sense of personal purpose and meaning through exploring various cosmological or philosophical or spiritual systems which give a unifying world view of creation and one's place and purpose within it and teaches the individual to develop their own intuitive sense of truth based on natural law.  (9th nn)  They might find meaning and purpose by taking up a spiritual practice or studying astrology focusing their mental skills on deepening their understanding of a specific belief system that they feel aligned with.  They might travel to other countries studying other systems of belief or take up meditation or spend time in nature in order to experience intuitively their connection with all of life and the underlying unity of different belief systems as they relate to natural law.  As they become more aware of their own truth they are faced with the paths and choices they must make in order to evolve.  The PPP in the 1st house automatically changes as they begin to realize that the efforts to find their truth have to be done on one's own independent of others.  New directions are approached in an Aires/1st/Mars way because one is acting instinctively in unpaved directions learning about one's self and what one values.  This person might choose to be in or out of a relationship but regardless will gain the growth to do this out of choice rather than need and as this person listens to themselves and what they value (PPP) they begin to have the ability to approach relationships in a balanced way so that they can honor themselves as well as listen to and respect the needs of the other person.
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kora
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« Reply #85 on: Sep 17, 2012, 03:29 PM »

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Interesting questions from Henrik and Ari's responses....Ari, the following quote from your response to Henrik brought up a question for me:

]
Quote
However each case is unique. For example, sometimes the south node symbolizes a relive dynamic - ie something that needs to be re-addressed in order to be resolved in the current life. Or it can symbolize special gifts that the soul is here to actualize. Either (or both) of these scenarios are the case when Pluto or any planet is conjunct the sn. In a case like that the soul is required to work through the sn dynamics directly. This is totally inconsequential to the north node; it has to be focused on entirely on its own.

My question has to do with looking at a chart where a planet is conjunct the south node (not Pluto) and nothing else is squaring the nodes...I'll give the example of Venus conjunct South Node....are you saying that for evolution to proceed this person does not work through the North Node but evolves through the South Node focus and Venus?  (Venus is not retrograde)  What role does the North Node play in relation to the South Node in a case like this as far as affecting the evolutionary intent?

Thanks!

Kora
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Linda
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« Reply #86 on: Sep 17, 2012, 04:34 PM »

Hi Kora,

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Kora's question:  What role does the North Node play in relation to the South Node in a case like this as far as affecting the evolutionary intent?

Kora's example:  Venus conjunct South Node

With Venus conjunct the South Node, there can be a sense of being "stuck" in past life dynamics (South Node = the past) that the Soul has been trying to evolve out of, but has been unsuccessful.

The Soul is stuck at that point - Venus conj South Node - and therefore needs to focus on that area, to work and re-work that area, until NEW choices are made that can then move the Soul into a new direction - a forward momentum (not staying stuck in the past) - so that the lessons are understood, and evolution is effected.  This will certainly take the form of re-living key karmic relationships.

Once new choices are progressively made, the Soul therefore gradually becomes unstuck in that area - easing out of it - integrating the new lessons - and culminating the past. In order to culminate something, there has to be a re-living of it, so that the actual culmination CAN take place.

It can take conscious effort to move into a new direction because of the pull towards the familiarity of the past, where security exists.  In your example, the resistance could mean reverting to distorted relationship dynamics (inequality, submission/domination, etc).  Obviously, these old patterns are not going to work.  That's why the focus needs to be on that Venus/South Node area - to move away from the past through REDEFINING the past, not skipping over it - not rushing forward toward the attraction of the North Node.

I'm not sure if this following paragraph is correct. It seems logical, but will have to wait for Rad to clarify: The evolution into the future occurs THROUGH the Venus/South Node lessons (equality, balance, etc), with the North Node then naturally evolving THROUGH the South Node's development.  In turn the whole karmic axis (Pluto, PPP, NN) evolve through the South Node too.

Kora and Ari, hope this is helpful.  Please add or subtract as necessary.

Thanks,

Linda
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2012, 06:52 PM by Linda » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #87 on: Sep 17, 2012, 06:15 PM »

Hi Kora, Linda

Thanks for your contribution Linda.

Quote
The evolution into the future occurs THROUGH the Venus/South Node lessons (equality, balance, etc), with the North Node then naturally evolving THROUGH the South Node's development.  In turn the whole karmic axis (Pluto, PPP, NN) evolve through the South Node too.

As I understand it that is ONLY the case when Pluto squares the nodes and applies to the south node. In that case the Pluto polarity point, the north node and its ruler is integrated through the sn and its ruler. (see chapter 1 of the Pluto book - when Pluto squares the nodes: Example with the sn in taurus in the 6th, Pluto in Leo in the 9th).

Regarding the generic example Kora offered, I understand that the Venus sn symbolizes a specific karmic requirement that needs to be addressed in the current life (either unresolved karmic dynamics around relationship that need to be relived and resolved, and/or a special gift that is meant to be offered). The north node still symbolizes the evolving egocentric structure that, along with it's planetary ruler, activates the Pluto polarity point is activated.

Only in cases when there are no aspects to the north node is the soul required to FIRST work out the sn (and the planets on the sn) before the north node and the polarity point can be developed. Jeff Green has taught that in such a case, the unresolved karma of the sn and the planets on the sn will only be released by the time of the second Saturn return. And even that is a matter of what kind of choices the soul makes - ie it's not promised. The preliminary work has to be done first.

For example lets put the sn and Venus in the 7th house, north node in the 1st house. The first house kind of ego may be in process of being developed - thus evolution (Pluto polarity point) would in fact be activated to some extent. AND at the same time, that Venus sn symbolizes a karmic requirement that needs to be addressed as a part of the current life evolutionary requirement. However it's not a "sn first, nn second" kind of dynamic - unless of course there are no aspects to the nn, as stated above.

In the end, the sn/planet on the sn requirements are there to be worked out, so in the final analysis evolution will of course be limited if that is yet unresolved since the soul's capacity to develop the nn will be limited by the weight of the past. This will carry over in some way to the next life.

I feel it is most appropriate at this point, before any further responses or questions are posted, to ask if Rad can clarify this in whatever ways are necessary. I don't want to pursue further dialog in case that will create confusion for anyone.
With love,
Ari Moshe
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2012, 06:23 PM by ari moshe » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #88 on: Sep 17, 2012, 06:35 PM »

Hi Ari,

Do you think I should just delete my post.  I don't want to cause confusion for anyone.  I understand you are trying to stay with the basics at this stage.

Thanks,

Linda
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ari moshe
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« Reply #89 on: Sep 17, 2012, 06:46 PM »

I think it's best to let Rad clarify what needs clarifying since we have both made two different points. I don't want to assume that my correction to your post is defacto correct.
 
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