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Author Topic: New ea practice thread for beginners  (Read 22370 times)
Henrik
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« Reply #135 on: Oct 09, 2012, 06:40 am »

Hi Ari and everyone,

Here is my attempt at the Pluto 7th House/Sn in 9th followed by PPP in 1st House/Nn in 3rd.

Pluto in 7th house has lived a series of lifetimes where the soul has desired to detach from the subjective reality of self and instead begins to create an objective awareness of how it (self) relates to others. So in this cardinal house a new cycle has begun, one that expands our awareness of self in relation to others, then society, and the universe/Source. In the 7th house we do this by initiating relationships to people in order to understand others according to their view of reality. In order to be able to understand others, we have to be able to listen as an equal. The 7th house is a cardinal archetype and Yang whereas Pluto is a fixed archetype and Yin. Thus we find behavior associated with “hearing” (7th house) and evaluation (Pluto) that is described by cycles of external socialization (who are you, what are your values) followed by internal contemplation (who am I, what do I value). So, essentially, we are learning to relate our own individuality to that of others. However, because we’re dealing with Pluto here, the theme will be an almost compulsive need to be in relationships in order to validate one self.

With Sn in the 9th house, the way that the Soul incarnated has actualized it’s Pluto in the 7th house desires in the past has been, via the vehicle of relationships, through cycles of searching for a belief system (How and why do you believe what you do and what do base your understanding on?) that could explain life as it exists for the individual and then teaching or “selling” their understanding to others. In the search mode, the person would probably be attracted to teacher-like relationships, and within this, maybe to different structures of relationships, for example exposing themselves to different cultures/communities that have different emphasis in the roles and how they are expected to be lived within a relationship. When they themselves thought they had found “truth”, they would most likely be involved in relationships where they felt they could teach/sell/convert the other person. I don’t know if there could be a switching back-and-forth of the roles within a relationships with this signature (wouldn’t that be more of switching to the Nn)? Since the 9th house archetype is concerned with finding “meaning” and because we are looking at the Sn (moon), in the past once this person had adopted a system that provided meaning, this set up the dilemma of security issues (perhaps not as unconscious as Pluto) where the person may have “defended” what gave meaning (i.e. the system they had adopted) or to sell/convert others to that system in order to provide self-consistency. On the other hand, with Pluto in the 7th house, for some there is the possibility that they have understood relativity and therefore be able to understand that other people’s point of view may be relevant to where they are coming from, but maybe not being able to communicate their own conceptual framework it in a way that makes sense to others. In any case, with Pluto in the 7th house the compulsive need to complete oneself within relationships has been expressed via the Sn in the 9th house as mentioned above and they have commonly been validating themselves through the roles they have had within their relationship (teacher/student).

Because the Pluto function (desire to evolve) in the past has been to develop their understanding of who they are in a social setting (relationships), they will have learned, to varying degrees, equality, relativity, and of listening (and for some actually “hearing”). In the process they have been learning to become more objective. So we can see that it would be very easy for this person to play these roles within a relationship and that the other person would feel that their needs were being met (regardless of if this was true or not). With a Sn in the 9th house and the ability to play back someone else’s reality (Pluto in the 7th), we can see the potential master sales person, where they could easily “sell” their version of the truth to others convincingly.

In all cases, some sort of limitation exists wherein the person either feels that they have to sell/convert the other person to the “right” beliefs or they themselves feel they have to sell their own sense of who they are or what they intuits in order to fulfill the other person’s reality. By not being able to be independent within a relationship, the Pluto in the 7th house person are coming into this live seeking and attracting people that also lack this. For example, the person could attract another person who is much more adept at communicating their beliefs or someone who can in some way show the limitation inherent in the current belief system. This other person may seek validation in converting the Pluto in the 7th house person to their way of understanding. So the limitation is both the way they operate within relationships as well as the limitation implied in believing that their version of the truth is exclusive or conversely not acknowledge/express their own intuition because of fear of how this would affect the relationship.

As with any natal placement of Pluto, there might be severe resistance to changing behavior associated with the house and sign Pluto is in (because it represents unconscious security patterns that we have formed in previous lives). Unless the individual has sufficiently co-operated with evolutionary necessity, at some point, there will be intense internal or external confrontations that will force the individual to examine the “why” in a difficulty or problem. With a Pluto in the 7th house, the why questions could perhaps be connected to things like needs unfulfilled and who am I if I’m not with you.

Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others…to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP. With the Nn in the 3rd house, the way this could be actualized would be to let your instincts confirm your intuition both in regards to what belief-system you identify with as well as when making major life decisions and to rely on this when exposed to other people’s beliefs while at the same time understand that to grow one has to acknowledge that what may be a valid belief or conceptual framework for some, may not be for others.
Simple example: Let’s say I’m in a relationship with someone who do not believe we re-incarnate and this, let’s say, goes against one of my core beliefs. The other person may therefore adhere to a system that may at first differ a great deal to the one I identify with, but then I realize that this person is trying to be a “good” person to its fellow human beings and that somehow they have identified with some sets of principles that in the end give the same behavior in this life as what I admire; in essence, the output is similar, even though you do not share the same conceptual framework. The key point, then, is that with a PPP in the first house and with a Nn in the 3rd house, I might ponder on the beliefs of the other person and find within (both on a gut level and intuitively, that it might make perfect sense why this other person may be oriented this way and it may even help me enlarge my own understanding. As I communicate with this person, if I have started to make the shift towards the PPP in the first house and the Nn in the 3rd house, I will not feel the need to defend, sell or convert the other person to my framework and I will also be able to respond in the “right” way if the other person were attempting to do this to me.

The key with the Nn in the 3rd house is to allow yourself to communicate with your environment in a way that allows you to share experiences and at the same time allows you to expand your own understanding. Coming from the 9th house, the person is probably already aware at some level that truth exists in and of itself, so going towards the 3rd house is about a meaningful exchange of experiences (communication) without prejudice in order to expand their current understanding of whatever truths are intuited.

Thanks for opportunity Ari!

Al the best,
Henrik
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ari moshe
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« Reply #136 on: Oct 09, 2012, 10:56 am »

Hi Kora,

Quote
Hi Ari and Everyone,

Here is my attempt for our new assignment with Pluto 7th, SNode 9th and NNode in the 3rd:

This individual's past soul desire has been to objectively know himself or herself in relationship with another through seeking a variety of relationship with different people covering extreme differences.  They have done this from a soul desire to find balance and equality in relationships and to learn how to listen to others and to give to others according to the needs of the other.  Due to egoic insecurity imbalances have occurred with several possible scenarios of how this could play out.  Examples include patterns of codependency, taking on dominant or submissive roles in relationships or depending on another in some way for self identity.  The intent for the current life (PPP 1st house) is to be free and independent and to act instinctively towards new learning that fulfills their own needs and through these actions to expand their sense of self to meet their own needs without being in relationship to another. 

With the South Node in the 9th house this person has approached relationships in the past from an egoic personality structure desiring to find their truth and to expand their intuitive knowing of truth as well as developing their personal unifying belief system regarding life and the meaning of life and their place and purpose within it.  They may have been a teacher or philosopher or guru type and perhaps attracted another who wanted to learn from them or they might have relied on such others to teach them or inspire them in the direction of their own intuitive development.  Currently they would be functioning from imbalances that have occurred from a variety of possible manifestations.  Their current egoic security would be based on past beliefs and what was true for them in the past and presently they might draw in people who have a differing set of strong beliefs who confront or challenge them.  If threatened they may become very dogmatic trying to convert others or submissive to a stronger partner who tries to convert them and thus become separated from their own truth.  They might be deceptive or actually lie about their current truth.  They would likely feel quite alienated from others due to past experiences and be poor communicators finding it difficult to convey what they know through their intuition and consequent frustrations over their inability to communicate cause them to become withdrawn leading to further problems in relationships.  They might also have difficulty making commitments and  deception can occur related to this creating further challenges and confrontations.

Growth for this person can occur through embracing the NNode (3rd house) when this individual makes a deliberate effort to become a student searching out new information and experiences that can expand his or her current belief structures and/or tolerance regarding the beliefs of others. 

This would involve learning new communication skills and exposing themselves to a variety of individuals with differing beliefs from an attitude of being willing to listen to them so he or she can understand where they are coming from, being willing to learn about their differences as well as their similarities. 

Great.

By learning to listen this individual can become more tolerant and can begin to expand his or her own beliefs and their understanding of how many different paths to the truth can lead to an underlying resonant unity.   As this is done the PPP (1st house) automatically becomes activated.  The person instinctively acts independently in new directions following own desires for new learning and experience and through these actions expands his or her self identity.  The ego is strengthened and this person can fulfill his or her own needs instead of relying on another.  The person is more skilled if he or she chooses to be in a relationship to communicate in a better way, to listen to another and to be tolerant of a partner's point of view.  When there is the freedom and the space for each to pursue their own individual needs and an attitude of respect and tolerance for another there is also a greater liklihood that the person will bond (feel less alienated) and want to be more committed.

Excellent ea analysis Kora. I want to clarify that commitment isn't necessarily going to be an issue for the soul - it's just one possibility.

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #137 on: Oct 09, 2012, 11:10 am »

Hi Tory,

Quote
Dear Ari, Dear All,

Pluto (unconscious emotional security patterns of the soul) in the 7th (Cardinal/Yang/Air) "the energy of Venus is yang and turned outwards, so we seek more than just what we can provide for ourselves-we look to 'the other' also for fulfillment" from Patricia Walsh's marvelous Understanding Karmic Complexes thanks to Patricia for her Keywords, so helpful! Pluto in 7th is on one hand learning through compare and contrast in relationships with others (indeed through all interactions outside of self) and self, having this deeply unconscious need for relationships as a platform for the souls learning, the degree to which it is unconscious and needy creating possible extremes between (swinging back and forth polarity of the 1st/7th house) co-dependancy and the 1st house PP (Cardinal/Yang/Fire) of ultimately having to fall back on self (triggering 1st house anxiety of separation) finding the courage to go within and accept that all we are searching for, ultimately is not out there manifest in a person or a thing, but to be found within.

Beautifully said.

SN (prior egocentric structure of the soul) in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) suggests prior purposeful search for knowledge/wisdom/meaning possibly constructively in relationship to others as teacher/shaman of natural law or otherwise where the knowledge/belief systems became/become an end in itself, teacher becomes a preacher, and all that goes with: dogmatic faith and ideals being forced onto others, knowledge as a means of power to control and manipulate others? (Pluto in the 7th?).

Yes that can absolutely be true. With the sn in the 9th, the orientation towards these relationships have been Sag in it's very nature: this can easily manifest as entering into relationship as a teacher and thus playing the dominant role, or even creating teacher/student or counselor/counselee kinds of relationships.

I have a question: The South Node of the Moon represents prior egocentric structure of the soul, on an emotional level? 

Yes, identity is always an emotional phenomena

I need to pause and reflect and will pick up where i left off in my next post.
Light and Love
Tory

Wonderful, your on the right track Tory.
With love
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #138 on: Oct 09, 2012, 01:20 pm »

Hi Emily,

Quote
Hi All,

Pluto in the 7th House
South Node in the 9th House

So in this case the 7th house Pluto soul has used an egocentric structure of the 9th house to actualize its desires of learning to be in relationships as an equal.  The 9th house ego structure is all about the need to ..."understand themselves in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical, or religious context." (Pluto I JWG)  So this desire would be operating in relationships that this soul would have had in the past.  This soul has been focused on knowing the truth and created a diversity of circumstances and relationships in order to explore the nature of existence.

Assuming the soul did not yet know how to be an equal in relationships there is a chance this soul has tried to convert others to its belief system and been intolerant of others beliefs.  The person may also have had trouble communicating his/her beliefs to others due to the difficulty of translating intuitive knowing into spoken word or into a coherent teaching - which would have created a feeling of frustration and of not being able to connect with other people.

This person would have been/is highly intuitive especially with regard to other people (? 7th house) and may have used this to manipulate others to get what they wanted.

Yes that is absolutely a possibility.

This person may also have been able to truly listen to another and combined with their keen intuition could have been a very good friend/counselor (or is this more 3rd?)

You are right. The ability to listen to others with a keen intuition which allows for a broader "forest from the trees" kind of insight may make this person a great friend and counselor. Of course, as per Pluto, there's the likelihood of unconscious manipulation/dependencies being wrapped up in that as well. That's where lessons around true listening would be necessary: Am I a playing the role of a counselor right now, do I already have all the answers, or am I truly interested in what the other person has to say w/out the need to provide "answers".

This is where the third house nn comes in - to notice the social ques of the other person, so the soul is not in a monologue with itself on the supposition that it is being helpful to the other.


This signature indicates a very wise soul that could have been a teacher or could have continuously found itself in teacher/student relationships - in which the partners are not meeting as equals but are involved in power struggles where one knows more (or thinks it knows more) than the other.  This person could have been highly dogmatic and intolerant of others views trying to convince and convert others to their beliefs.  Or could have found itself very easily overtaken by the beliefs of other more powerful people.

Yes - dominance and submission.

Although relationships may have caused the person to feel alienated, relationships with others have been opening the soul up to their own intuitive knowing of the truth of natural law.  Whether they found themselves around others of like-mind or not at all the intention has been the same.

The degree of emotional security linked to their chosen belief system will determine the strength of confrontation they have experienced with others.

Beautifully said

Also, this soul may not have engaged in relationship very much at all as it felt alienated from others and was focused on its search for the truth and its own special destiny.  In order to learn to engage in relationships in an equal way - if the soul has been avoiding them - at some point it will need to find balance between being in relationships and maintaining its own freedom.

In such a case that would imply that it's relationships have been oriented to in a very particular way: ie as a teacher, which implies a polarized identity.

Peace,
Emily

----

Hi -

I forgot the North Node in the 3rd:

The north node in the 3rd symbolizes that in order for this soul to enter into relationships as an equal it must learn that truth is relative and that it does not have a unique hold on the truth.  This will need to happen by the soul opening up to other people, philosophies, religions etc and realizing that there are many paths to the truth.  In this way the soul can be more relaxed in its interactions with others, not needing to convince and convert everyone to its way of thinking.  And the soul can then share the wisdom it has with anyone because it is not dependent on a specific belief system but is rooted in natural law and intuitive knowing.

-Emily

Excellent ea analysis Emily.
With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #139 on: Oct 09, 2012, 02:25 pm »

Hi Rita,

Quote
Hi Ari, Hi Everybody;

Pluto in the 7th house SN in the 9th house, NN in the 3rd house:

In the past this individual´s  Soul has been involved in as many relationships as possible.

I wouldn't say this has had to do with a quantity of relationships - ie "as much as possible".

Through these relationships he learned how to listen to the needs of others so to be able to give them what they need according to the their needs, wants and desires. These relationships have also been teaching him balance and equality within the relationships he has had with others because these individuals have not learned how to do this.

There is the need to be in many relationships so that he can have many different points of views,  and this will help him to know how to relate to others and to objectively understand the significance of human nature. There is a danger that by having many relationships he will have  too many different points of views, mixing him up / confusing him.

This in turn can become a compulsive behavior in which he is overly dependent on the opinions, advice or knowledge of others. Through these other peoples points of views,opinions and dictates, that he takes for his own, only adding to his inability to decide for himself how he should run his life. This in turn will only contribute to his feeling of having lost his own identity.

The possibility for extreme relationships in which codependency on the partner or by his covert behavior making the partner totally dependent on him.  These extremes the Soul created / creates, are based on him believing that his own needs are the same needs of his partner and he cannot see that he is a mere extension of his partner, this is caused by his fear of loosing his self identity and the familiar emotional security he has / knows. 

SN 9th:
In the past this individual´s Soul has been understanding himself and life in a cosmological, metaphysical, philosophical or religious context. He has been trying to understand his connection to the Universe and the world that he lives in.
His Soul / he feels, that he has a special destiny to fulfill, that he needs all the freedom to pursue the discovery of the truth for his existence. A loner due to prior lives of traveling in quest for the truth which is imprint in his subconscious, making his alienation to the society that he is born into very real, especially if the society that he is born in is  based on specific religious or philosophical systems that are limiting by their ideologies.

With Pluto in the 7th house, SN 9 house, the philosophical or intellectual confrontations that occurred with others when he expressed his intuitive knowledge, and  when confronted for his ideas, he could not really explain how he knew what he knew or why he had certainties for his beliefs.
This made it very difficult for him to have a balanced relationship in which he did not feel alienated and emotionally insecure for having different ideas, beliefs and values.   

Very good. This is one possibility. The very opposite can be true as well.

Although a loner it is possible he succeeded to keep a more equal relationship with people who could understand and listen to his intuitive knowledge and openness to Universal truth.

I'm called to clarify: I wouldn't classify this soul as an inherent loner. "Loner" is linked to Aries, Mars, 1st house - and thus is connected to Sag through the natural trine. However "being alone" is not a core operative dynamic within Sag - understanding one's personal truth is.

Sooner or later his Souls desire (PPP 1 house ) will push him to take hold of his life, he will decide for himself what directions or decisions are best for him, without the dependency previously needed of others, opinions, ideas or consent. At the same time he will have learned not to control, interfere or block his partners need to initiate new things.

Yes and there's a bit more I know you can examine here as well. If you wish to explore this further, here are a couple questions for you:
What are the ways in which this soul may control others? What are some of the ways in which this soul may be controlled by others?


SN PP 3 house, the evolutionary intent for this life is that he understands that his version of reality, laws, principles and morality are relative, he will  come to understand this through the many philosophical, metaphysical and cosmological confrontations he will have with others in which he will have learned to express his views, ideas in a language that is understood by everybody for its simplicity and truth.

Excellent. Now how does the north node activate the Pluto polarity point?

blessings
rita

Very good ea analysis Rita. Please feel free to examine the above questions/offer any further elaboration and I'll be here to support you.
 
With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #140 on: Oct 09, 2012, 02:58 pm »

Hi Stephen,

Quote
Hi all, here's my interpretation. I haven't read other responses yet, so apologies if there's overlap:

Overlap isn't a problem at all. Also many, including myself find it most conducive to not read what other people wrote until having posted first.

With a SN in the 9th house and Pluto in the 7th, this soul has in the past primarily sought out relationships that have provided it with more cosmological-philosophical knowingness. In the consensus state, this could obviously manifest as a rigid clinging to a religious group. There's been a tendency to seek the approval and affirmations of others, a spiritual teacher for example, perhaps through philosophical discourse.

And on the flip side, the soul has avoided relationships with others who've symbolized some sort of philosophy incongruent with that by which it has found security (including one that invalidates the 9th house perception in general). And quite possibly, this soul has avoided expressing its direct experience of natural law/truth due to the unconscious gravitation to 'fitting in'. In any case, the underlying desire has been to gain self awareness through relationships with 'other'.

All beautifully said.

With a 9th house south node, the orientation to listening/feedback has been primarily based on intuition and feeling,

Intuition and feeling are not the same. Feeling is Venus, Taurus, second house

rather than a mercurial left-brain process. Being identified with the intuitive search and direct knowing of natural law, to the point of missing social cues and the 'here and now' details, this soul has often struggled with effectively communicating to others in a way that meets them on their own (perhaps more left-brained) terms. There's also been a tendency to rely on intuition, blindly negating information to the contrary.

Some lessons for the soul in this life will involve learning how to learn from others - humbling oneself and learning how to integrate new information without needing to compulsively consult the inner 'but why?'. There's an obvious 7th house application here. By moving beyond the need to understand the 'greater' truths, this soul will be getting into its body

The need for "getting into its body" is not implied here. If the nn was in Virgo then something like that would be applicable.

and actually aligning with natural law, becoming present with the 'here and now' smallness of its humanity, rather than remaining in its head and finding security in the gaining of more objective truth (a neverending expansion!).

To me, this 'aligning' with the 'here and now' has a very Aries/1st essence to it, albeit on the level of mind/3rd rather than instinct/1st.

It'll be both - since the 3rd house activates the 1st house polarity point. If you wish, elaborate on how the third house nn activates the polarity point.

In becoming a student of life's continually flowing and changing information feedback loop, this soul is learning that 'all of life can be understood according to logical rules' (citing AM's book), and that there are plenty of ways to understand 'what is' on the level of the left brain...and that's exciting! Learning adoptability to various microcultures and other ways of thinking will be a big lesson here. By sticking with particular areas of focus in the 'here and now' (contrasted with the 9th house's tendency to get wrapped up in some grand intuited vision), to a level of actual accomplishment,

Accomplishment isn't implied here - rather the intention is to realize that there is always more information and perspectives for anything.

I will have to change that part in my book as I feel it is not accurate. Within the Gemini archetype it is not true to say that ALL of life can be understood via logical rules - rather there are always more ways to study the environment and create classifications for phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality itself, by the way, is Sagittarius.


this soul could be an amazing astrologer, metaphysician, author, or speaker. A keen, tactful mind on the level of phenomena (3rd house) can give way to a true enjoyment of and relationship with all things phenomenal.  

I'm also feeling that the objectivity of the 9th house and 7th house fit together in the same way that the subjectivity of the 3rd house and 1st house do. The 9th house orientation ultimately leads to a noumenal philosophy of Oneness, whereas the 3rd house orientation focuses more on the phenomenal information of apparent individuality. In a similar fashion, the 7th house orientation has to do with relationship (oneness)

I wouldn't associate oneness with 7th house. That is Pisces, 12th house, Neptune.

whereas the 1st house orientation has to do with self-initiated direction (individuality). With these similarities in mind, I'm able to feel how this 3rd house NN movement will activate 1st house PPP evolution at the unconscious level.

I invite you to flesh that out some more...

OK, that's all I've got for now. Thanks AM, and ya'll!

Stephen

Very Good ea analysis Stephen.
With love,
Ari Moshe
« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2012, 10:54 pm by ari moshe » Logged
Tory
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« Reply #141 on: Oct 09, 2012, 03:10 pm »

Dear Ari, Dear All,

SN in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) evokes the adaptable, expansive, "endless" journeying quality urging the soul ever forward in its search for ultimate truth. The inherent restlessness and idealistic optimism can make the soul search and go where no man has gone before (long explorative journeys/immigration) in its constant search for meaning, or in the name of a perceived truth/religion/personal belief, the soul has ventured far. And with Pluto in the 7th, all this adventuring has facilitated the soul's need for exposure to a myriad of relationships, and there's probably been a lot of, and all kinds of from the superficial/ pleasing/convenient to the heart breakingly intimate and fleeting. All this experience naturally leads to a deep knowing/intuitive understanding of natural laws and human nature (9th house).

NN in the 3rd (yang/mutable/air) the restlessness continues but it is time to dissect, classify, order, name and then communicate the deep intuitive understanding gained from previous experience, finding words to describe the most profound (even though paradoxically no words can describe it, this seems to explain the inherent duality of Gemini, facts and left brain logic only being half of the picture) PPP in the 1st, finding one's own voice and finding a way to communicate and be heard above the chatter in a very noisy room. PPP in the 1st, no one can do the work for you, evokes plenty of time alone, studying!

Grace and Light
Tory
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ari moshe
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« Reply #142 on: Oct 09, 2012, 04:17 pm »

Hi Henrik,

Quote
Hi Ari and everyone,

Here is my attempt at the Pluto 7th House/Sn in 9th followed by PPP in 1st House/Nn in 3rd.

Pluto in 7th house has lived a series of lifetimes where the soul has desired to detach from the subjective reality of self and instead begins to create an objective awareness of how it (self) relates to others. So in this cardinal house a new cycle has begun, one that expands our awareness of self in relation to others, then society, and the universe/Source. In the 7th house we do this by initiating relationships to people in order to understand others according to their view of reality. In order to be able to understand others, we have to be able to listen as an equal. The 7th house is a cardinal archetype and Yang whereas Pluto is a fixed archetype and Yin. Thus we find behavior associated with “hearing” (7th house) and evaluation (Pluto) that is described by cycles of external socialization (who are you, what are your values) followed by internal contemplation (who am I, what do I value). So, essentially, we are learning to relate our own individuality to that of others. However, because we’re dealing with Pluto here, the theme will be an almost compulsive need to be in relationships in order to validate one self.

All very well said!

With Sn in the 9th house, the way that the Soul incarnated has actualized it’s Pluto in the 7th house desires in the past has been, via the vehicle of relationships, through cycles of searching for a belief system (How and why do you believe what you do and what do base your understanding on?) that could explain life as it exists for the individual and then teaching or “selling” their understanding to others. In the search mode, the person would probably be attracted to teacher-like relationships, and within this, maybe to different structures of relationships, for example exposing themselves to different cultures/communities that have different emphasis in the roles and how they are expected to be lived within a relationship.

"Roles" and cultural/social expectations is a Capricorn thing.

When they themselves thought they had found “truth”, they would most likely be involved in relationships where they felt they could teach/sell/convert the other person. I don’t know if there could be a switching back-and-forth of the roles within a relationships with this signature (wouldn’t that be more of switching to the Nn)?

That can happen. And if not occurring within a singular relationship, then within multiple relationships and spanning over more than one lifetime. In some relationships this soul would be playing the role of the "teacher" and thus creating dependencies via that role. And in other relationships the soul might be forming dependencies to those who are playing the role of the "teacher type".

Regarding the first case, there may also be a guilt within this soul because of prior lives where this soul has made others dependent on itself which had the effect of invalidated other people's truths and also may have been misleading (guidance that wasn't necessarily relevant or applicable to other people's actual needs and thus lead others away from their own inner compass).


Since the 9th house archetype is concerned with finding “meaning” and because we are looking at the Sn (moon), in the past once this person had adopted a system that provided meaning, this set up the dilemma of security issues (perhaps not as unconscious as Pluto) where the person may have “defended” what gave meaning (i.e. the system they had adopted) or to sell/convert others to that system in order to provide self-consistency. On the other hand, with Pluto in the 7th house, for some there is the possibility that they have understood relativity and therefore be able to understand that other people’s point of view may be relevant to where they are coming from, but maybe not being able to communicate their own conceptual framework it in a way that makes sense to others.

In any case, with Pluto in the 7th house the compulsive need to complete oneself within relationships has been expressed via the Sn in the 9th house as mentioned above and they have commonly been validating themselves through the roles they have had within their relationship (teacher/student).

Excellent

Because the Pluto function (desire to evolve) in the past has been to develop their understanding of who they are in a social setting (relationships), they will have learned, to varying degrees, equality, relativity, and of listening (and for some actually “hearing”).

Actually "hearing" is Gemini, third house (ie the physiological function of the ear).

In the process they have been learning to become more objective. So we can see that it would be very easy for this person to play these roles within a relationship and that the other person would feel that their needs were being met (regardless of if this was true or not). With a Sn in the 9th house and the ability to play back someone else’s reality (Pluto in the 7th), we can see the potential master sales person, where they could easily “sell” their version of the truth to others convincingly.

In all cases, some sort of limitation exists wherein the person either feels that they have to sell/convert the other person to the “right” beliefs or they themselves feel they have to sell their own sense of who they are or what they intuits in order to fulfill the other person’s reality. By not being able to be independent within a relationship, the Pluto in the 7th house person are coming into this live seeking and attracting people that also lack this.

All very good comprehension!

For example, the person could attract another person who is much more adept at communicating their beliefs or someone who can in some way show the limitation inherent in the current belief system. This other person may seek validation in converting the Pluto in the 7th house person to their way of understanding. So the limitation is both the way they operate within relationships as well as the limitation implied in believing that their version of the truth is exclusive or conversely not acknowledge/express their own intuition because of fear of how this would affect the relationship.

As with any natal placement of Pluto, there might be severe resistance to changing behavior associated with the house and sign Pluto is in (because it represents unconscious security patterns that we have formed in previous lives). Unless the individual has sufficiently co-operated with evolutionary necessity, at some point, there will be intense internal or external confrontations that will force the individual to examine the “why” in a difficulty or problem. With a Pluto in the 7th house, the why questions could perhaps be connected to things like needs unfulfilled and who am I if I’m not with you.

Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others…to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP.

This isn't necessarily about "making major decisions".

With the Nn in the 3rd house, the way this could be actualized would be to let your instincts confirm your intuition both in regards to what belief-system you identify with as well as when making major life decisions and to rely on this when exposed to other people’s beliefs while at the same time understand that to grow one has to acknowledge that what may be a valid belief or conceptual framework for some, may not be for others.

Yes. To elaborate on this, this can manifest in two ways:
For the soul that has manifested as a teacher type person to whom others have formed dependencies, the nn will symbolize the need to learn how to communicate to others w/out the need to prove oneself or convince others of anything - which itself has been linked to the soul's compulsion to be needed. This means not having the answers and being more open to "not knowing", being a student of life.

In the case of a soul who has been attracted to teacher type people, the nn symbolizes the need to ask questions - even if that means not being "liked" or approved of by the teacher type person; to question beliefs via logical rational thinking and not to settle for generalizations that don't make logical sense.


Simple example: Let’s say I’m in a relationship with someone who do not believe we re-incarnate and this, let’s say, goes against one of my core beliefs. The other person may therefore adhere to a system that may at first differ a great deal to the one I identify with, but then I realize that this person is trying to be a “good” person to its fellow human beings and that somehow they have identified with some sets of principles that in the end give the same behavior in this life as what I admire; in essence, the output is similar, even though you do not share the same conceptual framework.

Trying to be a 'good person' is a Capricorn thing. Ethical evaluations wouldn't be relevant within these signatures.

The key point, then, is that with a PPP in the first house and with a Nn in the 3rd house, I might ponder on the beliefs of the other person and find within (both on a gut level and intuitively, that it might make perfect sense why this other person may be oriented this way and it may even help me enlarge my own understanding. As I communicate with this person, if I have started to make the shift towards the PPP in the first house and the Nn in the 3rd house, I will not feel the need to defend, sell or convert the other person to my framework and I will also be able to respond in the “right” way if the other person were attempting to do this to me.

Yes, the key is really about listening by way of actually hearing what is being said, and being intently interested in it as well. The level of engagement and interest in listening/asking questions/getting into the particulars directly parallel's the soul's capacity to accept that it truly does not already have all the answers.

The key with the Nn in the 3rd house is to allow yourself to communicate with your environment in a way that allows you to share experiences and at the same time allows you to expand your own understanding. Coming from the 9th house, the person is probably already aware at some level that truth exists in and of itself, so going towards the 3rd house is about a meaningful exchange of experiences (communication) without prejudice in order to expand their current understanding of whatever truths are intuited.

Thanks for opportunity Ari!

Al the best,
Henrik

Excellent ea analysis Henrik. I feel you are really grasping the essence of the ea paradigm. If you wish, I invite you to further elaborate on how the nn activates the Pluto polarity point as there is more that can be examined here.
With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #143 on: Oct 09, 2012, 04:23 pm »

Thank you all for your interpretations and continued participation here!
Everyone has accurately examined the core ea dynamics of this chart. Now there is definitely some more insight that can be fleshed out here. So for those who wish, I invite everyone to continue with this interpretation and to ask any further questions. Wendy and others, still feel free to post anytime.

Tory I see your recent post - I'll respond to it tomorrow.
With love, God bless
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #144 on: Oct 10, 2012, 07:21 am »

Hi Tory, thank you for your additional post. Everything you wrote is accurate and if you wish to address this further: With the focus on the 7th house bottom line, how does the sn in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution? And how does the nn catalyze evolution?

With love,
am

Quote
Dear Ari, Dear All,

SN in the 9th (Mutable/Yang/Fire) evokes the adaptable, expansive, "endless" journeying quality urging the soul ever forward in its search for ultimate truth. The inherent restlessness and idealistic optimism can make the soul search and go where no man has gone before (long explorative journeys/immigration) in its constant search for meaning, or in the name of a perceived truth/religion/personal belief, the soul has ventured far. And with Pluto in the 7th, all this adventuring has facilitated the soul's need for exposure to a myriad of relationships, and there's probably been a lot of, and all kinds of from the superficial/ pleasing/convenient to the heart breakingly intimate and fleeting. All this experience naturally leads to a deep knowing/intuitive understanding of natural laws and human nature (9th house).

NN in the 3rd (yang/mutable/air) the restlessness continues but it is time to dissect, classify, order, name and then communicate the deep intuitive understanding gained from previous experience, finding words to describe the most profound (even though paradoxically no words can describe it, this seems to explain the inherent duality of Gemini, facts and left brain logic only being half of the picture) PPP in the 1st, finding one's own voice and finding a way to communicate and be heard above the chatter in a very noisy room. PPP in the 1st, no one can do the work for you, evokes plenty of time alone, studying!

Grace and Light
Tory
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rita
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« Reply #145 on: Oct 10, 2012, 07:45 am »


Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,
The answers to your questions:

The Pluto 7 house person would be attracted to somebody who was weaker and with an inherent fragility in which The Pluto person would be perceived as a strong and powerful support to their weaknesses or problems and by being there and listening to them this would make the other feel that it is understood giving the impression of safety and emotional security, gradually the other persons dependency would grow, and eventually this person would adopt the beliefs, values and opinions as its own. Making the other dependent on the Pluto person for its security and emotional well-being.
The 7 house Pluto person would engage and become overly involved in too many relationships and take as its own the values, beliefs and views of others. By becoming overly involved the Pluto person looses sight of its own identity and individuality. The Pluto 7 house person can become compulsively attached to the opinions, advice or knowledge of others, as a way to determine who the (Pluto) person is.
 
The Pluto 7 house person cannot relate to himself without relating to others. This can lead the Pluto person to unconsciously seek powerful people who appear strong, stable and secure, who could guide the Pluto person and control their development. This eventually creates a tremendous imbalance in which the 7 house Pluto person is dependent on the other / or partner, this situation can create an alter ego effect in which the Pluto person is fulfilling the others needs to his exclusion.

The NN would be activated by Pluto PP  and the evolutionary intent for this Soul would be to minimize his dependencies on others for his decision making. Also he would transmit either by being a teacher / student in a cohesive  manner to others, so that they understand what his beliefs, ideas are on a metaphysical, cosmological universal truth. He would no longer feel a threat to any diverse opinion, belief to his own, he would no longer feel the need  to have as his own other peoples opinions, values, beliefs and would separate to discover his own identity, values and beliefs with no anxiety towards the separation.
The Pluto person by adopting the PP 1 house will be fulfilling his desire for independence and enjoy his new impulse of being alone. He will also be able to communicate either by writing, speaking or becoming the messenger of his own ideologies allowing for his intuition to guide his message in a rational and cohesive way so as to be well understood by many.
Other peoples opinions, values and beliefs will be listened with curiosity and interest as new information that can deepen his knowledge.He will no longer feel the need to convert or be converted to others beliefs understanding that each person has a right to his/ hers ideas.
blessings
rita
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ari moshe
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« Reply #146 on: Oct 10, 2012, 08:15 am »

Hi Rita, thank you for your additional post. The main thing that I focused on in my response to you is pointing out how, in this particular signature, this soul can manifest as the "dominant" in relationships or as the "submissive". Please let me know if you have any questions.
With love,
am

Quote
Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,
The answers to your questions:

The Pluto 7 house person would be attracted to somebody who was weaker and with an inherent fragility in which The Pluto person would be perceived as a strong and powerful support to their weaknesses or problems and by being there and listening to them this would make the other feel that it is understood giving the impression of safety and emotional security, gradually the other persons dependency would grow, and eventually this person would adopt the beliefs, values and opinions as its own. Making the other dependent on the Pluto person for its security and emotional well-being.

Excellent. Yes this is ONE possibility. Here you are expressing the "dominant" expression of a 7th house Pluto. In this case, since we're working with a sn in the 9th house, this would imply a soul who has used their wisdom, intuitive understanding of life, their spirituality, various beliefs, insight etc as a way to be a guide to others - and yet relative to the "weak" point of a 7th house Pluto, the guidance that this soul offers may in fact be a form of manipulation linked to this soul's core need to be needed. Thus putting this soul in the role of the "dominant" who attracts others who are "weaker".

The 7 house Pluto person would engage and become overly involved in too many relationships and take as its own the values, beliefs and views of others. By becoming overly involved the Pluto person looses sight of its own identity and individuality. The Pluto 7 house person can become compulsively attached to the opinions, advice or knowledge of others, as a way to determine who the (Pluto) person is.
 
Yes, and what you just wrote expresses the OTHER possibility of this signature. This is the submissive side to Pluto in the 7th. In this case, since the sn is in the 9th house, this could imply that this soul has osmosed, attached itself to those who seemed to have some sort of wisdom the soul felt that it needed. By forming an attachment to these people the soul experiences a temporary sense of security, but is also giving its power away to this other. This can be with a lover, a guru or any relationship.

The Pluto 7 house person cannot relate to himself without relating to others. This can lead the Pluto person to unconsciously seek powerful people who appear strong, stable and secure, who could guide the Pluto person and control their development. This eventually creates a tremendous imbalance in which the 7 house Pluto person is dependent on the other / or partner, this situation can create an alter ego effect in which the Pluto person is fulfilling the others needs to his exclusion.

Yes, and for the sake of this particular signature, the way we would apply that 7th house Pluto dynamic of seeking more powerful people is through the filter of the sn in the 9th: which as I described above would be through attracting and forming relationships with teacher type people with answers. And in this case the alter ego effect would happen where this soul is relating, communicating to this other person through the filter of this other person's beliefs and ways of looking at reality. This is a defacto giving away of power to this other person since the soul is not thinking for itself.

The NN would be activated by Pluto PP  and the evolutionary intent for this Soul would be to minimize his dependencies on others for his decision making. Also he would transmit either by being a teacher / student in a cohesive  manner to others, so that they understand what his beliefs, ideas are on a metaphysical, cosmological universal truth.

Great - and as you wrote below, the ability to "speak other people's languages" (3rd house nn) means there is no unconscious need to make other people "dependent" upon the soul, and thus this soul will know itself independently of others (Polarity point in 1st). In other words this is about not needing to play the role of a salesperson (9th house) who tries to convert others to its belief so as to create a relationship dependency (7th house Pluto shadow).

He would no longer feel a threat to any diverse opinion, belief to his own, he would no longer feel the need  to have as his own other peoples opinions, values, beliefs and would separate to discover his own identity, values and beliefs with no anxiety towards the separation.

The Pluto person by adopting the PP 1 house will be fulfilling his desire for independence and enjoy his new impulse of being alone. He will also be able to communicate either by writing, speaking or becoming the messenger of his own ideologies allowing for his intuition to guide his message in a rational and cohesive way so as to be well understood by many.
Other peoples opinions, values and beliefs will be listened with curiosity and interest as new information that can deepen his knowledge.He will no longer feel the need to convert or be converted to others beliefs understanding that each person has a right to his/ hers ideas.
blessings
rita
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Gray
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Posts: 129


« Reply #147 on: Oct 10, 2012, 10:38 am »

Ari and all,

I have a post on the tip of my tongue yet just haven't had time so far to actually post something. I am hoping to post at least something brief today before you move on.

Thank you to all for the time you are devoting to this, I am excited to read through all of these recent posts!
Gray
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rita
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« Reply #148 on: Oct 10, 2012, 11:52 am »



Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,
I hope it is ok for any body to answer other peoples questions put by Ari,
Hi Tory, i hope you do not mind if i also participate in answering Ari´s question in your mb message, thank you,

How does SN in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution:
This can happen when the 9 house SN has not found any meaningful philosophy, ideology or religion that he resonates to because he has his own beliefs, ideologies and philosophy of Universal truth and feels totally alienated to the world that he was born into. He will find philosophical explanations / excuses to himself that explain his alienation towards the society he is living in. He may wonder around endlessly trying to find something that is never found or he may simply isolate himself and only relate to few others who share the same point of view, but by refusing to socialize and participate in his society he is becoming cristalised within his own ideologies and beliefs and his evolutionary intent cannot proceed.

When 9th house SN learns the N3rd house polarity point evolutionary lesson which is to learn to speak out meaninfully his ideologies about the world to others, he will have succeeded to remove the block that had previously prevented him from being understood by others. Now he will be able to comunicate to others either through teaching, preaching, writting or verbally speaking and be understood by others when he shares his ideologies and views to the ordinary person.
Along the way he may have been all his life an agnostic and once he could make others understand him he may have found a tribe or a small comunity that share his beleifs, that he joins and becomes part of it.


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rita
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« Reply #149 on: Oct 10, 2012, 12:08 pm »


Hi Ari, i did not fully understand the question that is why the submission / dominant was not referred in my answer, thank you for your comment
blessings
rita
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