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Author Topic: evolutionary stages of Jiddu Krishnamurti  (Read 535 times)
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Kismine
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« on: Oct 30, 2018, 10:08 PM »

Hi,Rad,

I know you have ever said that Jiddu Krishnamurti was in 3rd individuated.I am very confusing.....in our country(china),he is so popular,many spiritual people talking about his works,and give me some impression that he is in 3rd spiritual....
hope you clearly understand my poor English.could you shed some light on this question?

thank you very much!
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Rad
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 31, 2018, 05:35 AM »

Hi Kismine,

Krishnamurti was the ultimate embodiment of the Uranian archetype of rebellion in that he was a genius at destroying all belief systems, taking away all the crutches that humans use by way of the invented belief systems about the nature of God, the nature of Creation itself.

He was not at all interested in replacing any belief system with another belief system. He taught and advocated the direct knowing of something versus the need to 'believe' anything. You can see by the attached birth chart below the archetypes in his consciousness that symbolize all of this.

The book he wrote called 'Freedom From The Known' is the essence of his teachings.

God Bless, Rad

******

To enlarge the chart below simply click on the 'jpg'.


* krishnamurti.JPG (166.99 KB, 1077x995 - viewed 63 times.)
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Kismine
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 31, 2018, 11:10 PM »

Hi,Rad,

Thank you so much.I ask Wei help mine translation.because I could not express myself clearly with English.She will post sunday.I am so sorry for the inconvenience,pardon me.

我猜测你也许想表达,在我们国家人们谈论克里希那穆提是好事,如你所说,他身上如此强烈的反抗和自由气息,有助于个人和集体的成长和进化。大家喜欢他的也正是这一点。他的绝大部分作品都被翻译成了中文,包括传记还有你提到的《从已知中解脱》这本书。Rad,你的回答也让我心生疑窦,我是不是太挑剔了(我的南交点落在处女座,群星11宫),是不是因为某种挑战欲,想看别人出丑的邪恶心理,促使我提出了这么一个问题。实话说吧!这个问题我一年前就萌生了,与其悬而不决,还不如索性问清楚了事。所以,我继续问。我时不时地会在与灵修有关的社交媒体上看到克里希那穆提的消息,有时是他的著作,有时是别人谈论他,其中不乏灵性权威人物。据说印度某个派别(名字我不记得)已经将他封为圣人,中国也有人说他是彻悟的人,境界很高的人,解脱了的人。她这么说的时候,还提到了另外一个人,A·H·阿玛斯(科威特的一位灵性导师,我不知道他在你们国家是不是也有名气)。所以,当我看到你说他处在个体化第三阶段,我非常的震惊,我真是无比震惊,还想是不是搞错了。我不明白为什么会有两种差别巨大的评价,我太困惑了,不知道信谁的。。。。
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Wei
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 04, 2018, 10:31 PM »

Hi,Rad,

Thank you so much.I ask Wei help mine translation.because I could not express myself clearly with English.She will post sunday.I am so sorry for the inconvenience,pardon me.

我猜测你也许想表达,在我们国家人们谈论克里希那穆提是好事,如你所说,他身上如此强烈的反抗和自由气息,有助于个人和集体的成长和进化。大家喜欢他的也正是这一点。他的绝大部分作品都被翻译成了中文,包括传记还有你提到的《从已知中解脱》这本书。Rad,你的回答也让我心生疑窦,我是不是太挑剔了(我的南交点落在处女座,群星11宫),是不是因为某种挑战欲,想看别人出丑的邪恶心理,促使我提出了这么一个问题。实话说吧!这个问题我一年前就萌生了,与其悬而不决,还不如索性问清楚了事。所以,我继续问。我时不时地会在与灵修有关的社交媒体上看到克里希那穆提的消息,有时是他的著作,有时是别人谈论他,其中不乏灵性权威人物。据说印度某个派别(名字我不记得)已经将他封为圣人,中国也有人说他是彻悟的人,境界很高的人,解脱了的人。她这么说的时候,还提到了另外一个人,A·H·阿玛斯(科威特的一位灵性导师,我不知道他在你们国家是不是也有名气)。所以,当我看到你说他处在个体化第三阶段,我非常的震惊,我真是无比震惊,还想是不是搞错了。我不明白为什么会有两种差别巨大的评价,我太困惑了,不知道信谁的。。。。

Hi Rad, here is translation of Kismine's question:

I assume that you meant that it's a good thing that people talk about Krishnamurti in our country (China), like you said, he was the ultimate embodiment of  rebellion and freedom, which can accelerate growth and evolution of consciousness on both individual and collective level, that's why everyone likes him. Most of his work has been translated into Chinese, include the book you mentioned 'Freedom From The Known'. Rad, your answer stirred some doubt and confusion in my heart, I wonder, am I too critical (I have SN in Virgo, stellium in 11th house), is it my desire to challenge others, to expose other's mistakes, lead me to ask this question? To be honest, this question has been raised since a year ago, I'd like to have clearance rather than keep myself in doubt further. My further question is, I often read information about Krishnamurti in spiritual groups on social media, many authority figures in spiritual field comment on him, some Indian spiritual group even declared him a saint, many people in China think that he has reached enlightenment, he is a man of high spiritual state, a man finished his path to liberation. That's why I was quiet shocking when I read that he was in 3rd individuated state, I was so shocking that wonder if there is some mistake. I don't understand, why would there be such different views of him, I am very confused, don't know which view to believe.
« Last Edit: Nov 04, 2018, 10:42 PM by Wei » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 05, 2018, 06:11 AM »

Hi Kismine,

First, I would encourage you not to 'believe' anyone about this. Second, I would encourage you to determine for yourself what you feel his EA state is. To do so you simply have to understand as deeply as you can the archetypes that define the various evolutionary states of any given Soul.

Relative to those archetypes, from an EA point of view, if you understand the totality of Krishnamurti's life,  starting with his own rebellion and rejection of being an 'appointed messiah' at a young age, that will allow the EA astrologer to determine his evolutionary state of evolution. As you consider his life, all of it, reflect on WHY his Soul has the skipped step signature in his chart: Pluto/Neptune in Gemini squaring his Nodal Axis with the N.Node being in Pisces in the 1st.

You asked for my understanding of his evolutionary state which is what I shared, and the core reason that I stated being the basis of him being in the very last stages of the 3rd individuated evolutionary state.

God Bless, Rad
« Last Edit: Nov 05, 2018, 08:39 AM by Rad » Logged
Kismine
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 05, 2018, 08:39 PM »

Hi,Rad,

非常谢谢,你说的很清楚,我明白了,也谢谢你的鼓励。关于演化阶段,你说让我相信自己的判断,把握住与演化阶段有关的核心原型,等等。这些我深有同感,也是这么做的。过去在实践的时候,我比较有把握判断的是合群阶段的人,另外一个就是艺术家们,个体化阶段的艺术家,结合对他们生平的了解,以及可能我以前比较喜欢文学,所以判断他们的演化阶段,感受其中细微的表现(不同的演化阶段会有很多微妙的细节),这些我比较有把握。但是我判断不了灵性演化阶段,包括个体化阶段的灵性现象,那简直对我就是一团雾水。

所以,我想问(Wei也想问),怎么判断个体化阶段和灵性演化阶段的灵性现象呢?

All the best!

kismine
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Rad
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 07, 2018, 07:37 AM »

Hi Kismine,

所以,我想问(Wei也想问),怎么判断个体化阶段和灵性演化阶段的灵性现象呢?

********

Here are the archetypes for the three stages within the spiritual state of evolution.

                                                  The Spiritual State

Astrologically speaking, this evolutionary state correlates to Neptune, because now the root desire becomes to consciously KNOW, not just believe in, but to know and unite with the Source Of All Things: the universal, God/ess. Because of this root desire, the consciousness now progressively expands into the universal, the cosmos, in such a way that the very nature of the interior consciousness within the Soul becomes conscious of the living universe within: the wave within the ocean, and the ocean within the wave.

Progressively, in this spiritual state of evolution, the very center of gravity within the Soul’s consciousness shifts from the subjective ego to the Soul itself. Once the center of gravity shifts to the Soul, then in the context of any given life the Soul is then able to simultaneously experience its specific individuality as reflected in the ego, while at the same time experiencing, being centered in, the Soul – the ocean that is aware of the waves that it manifests.

The Soul contains within itself all the prior life memories from every life it has ever lived. And the Soul has its own ‘identity’, or ego. This identity or ‘ego’ is not the same as the ego that the Soul creates in any given life on places like Earth. The ego of the Soul is one’s ‘eternal’ identity.

An easy way for any of us to understand this occurs when we dream. Obviously when we dream we are not identified with our subjective ego. After all we are ‘asleep’. The subjective ego has temporarily ‘dissolved’ back into the Soul when we sleep. So the question becomes ‘who and what is doing the dreaming’ ? Obviously it can only be the Soul, with its own ego that thus allows the Soul to know itself as a Soul that is eternal.

Another way to validate the same thing occurs when we sometimes wake up from sleeping and can not immediately ‘remember’ who we are: the current subjective ego, the “I”, of this life. It takes some effort to actually remember the subjective I when this occurs. So, again, the question becomes ‘who and what must make the effort to remember the subjective “I” of the current life ? Obviously it can only be our Soul.

So, again, as evolution proceeds in this spiritual state, there is a progressive shift in the center of gravity within the Soul’s consciousness. When this shift firmly takes hold then the Soul, in any given life, is simultaneously experiencing its eternal ‘self’ or ego, while at the same time experiencing the subjective ego, and the individuality attendant to it, that it has created for its own ongoing evolutionary reasons and intentions.

This is very similar to when we stand at the beach when the Sun goes down and at that moment when the Sun is equally half above and below the horizon. In this state of consciousness, the Soul is aware from within itself of all the prior lives that it has lived, and at the same time aware of the specific life, ego, that it is currently living.

Progressively, as evolution proceeds in the spiritual state of evolution, the Soul also becomes consciously aware of the Source Of All Things. This occurs as the consciousness of the Soul becomes truly universal: the inner experience of the entire universe within one’s own consciousness. This state of ‘cosmic consciousness’ allows one to actually experience the very point of the manifested Creation itself: the interface between the unmanifested and the manifested. As this occurs, the Soul then also becomes aware of all the natural laws that govern and correlate to the very nature of Creation itself.

In the most advanced states of evolution, the Soul, now being completely identified with these natural laws of Creation, is then able to harmonize with those laws in such a way as to use those laws at will in conjunction with the Will Of All Things: that which is the very origin of those natural laws.

a) In the first subdivision in the Spiritual State, the Soul progressively becomes aware of just how ‘small’ it is, because of the increasing universal dimensions that are occurring within its consciousness. This is vastly different than being the center of one’s own universe, as reflected in the consensus state for example. Of itself, this has a naturally humbling effect on the Soul, and thus the current subjective ego, Moon, that it has created. It is exactly this naturally humbling archetype that progressively allows the center of gravity to shift within the Soul’s consciousness from the subjective ego to the Soul itself, and ultimately to a conscious union with the Source Of All Things.

As a result, the Soul desires to progressively commit itself to the desire to reunite with the Source. As this occurs, the Soul will progressively commit itself to devotional types of spiritual practice in this subdivision. Within this, the Soul desires to commit itself to various forms of work that all correlate to being of service to the larger whole, of service to others in some way.

Many will naturally want to orient to various forms of the healing arts or to start ‘centers’ in which the healing arts in some way are the focus. The core issue here is that the Soul desires to do a work on behalf of the Source Of All Things, and to use the work as a vehicle through which The Source can be inwardly experienced because of the nature of the work. In the East this is called Karma Yoga.

In this first subdivision, the Soul becomes progressively aware of all that it needs to improve upon within itself. A heightened state of awareness occurs that makes the Soul aware of all its imperfections and, as a result, the Soul can now become highly self-critical. Even though this is natural, it also creates a potential danger or trap to the Soul in that this heightened state of critical self-awareness can cause the Soul to not feel ‘good enough’ or ‘ready’ to do the task, or work, that it is being inwardly directed to do.

This then sets in motion all kinds of excuse making, always manifesting as perfectly rational arguments, of why the Soul will not do what it should do when it should do it. The way out of this trap is to realize that the path to ‘perfection’ occurs by taking one step at a time.

As evolution progresses through this first subdivision, the Soul will increasingly have direct perception of the ‘single eye’, or the third eye, which is inherent to consciousness. As a result, this perception allows the Soul to merge with that single eye in such a way that various types and states of cosmic consciousness will occur, which will lead into the second subdivision within the spiritual state.

b) the second subdivision of the Spiritual state: As the Soul evolves into this subdivision it has already had various kinds of inner cosmic or universal kinds of experiences within its consciousness. Yet in this state the final shift in the center of gravity within consciousness from the subjective ego to the Soul itself has yet to occur. In this state the shift manifests more like a rubber band, wherein the gravity point keeps going back and forth from the subjective ego to the Soul.

The problem that this generates is that the progressive inner experiences within consciousness of the universal, the cosmic, of the Source fuels the subjective ego in such a way that the Soul feels more evolved than it actually is. This can then set in motion in varying degrees of intensity ‘spiritual delusions of grandeur’ from an egocentric and Soul point of view. When this occurs, such Souls will then feel that they have a spiritual ‘mission’ to fulfill on behalf of others, of the world itself.

It is important to remember in trying to understand this subdivision that as the Soul gets ever closer to the Source, The Light, that whatever egocentric impurities remain within the Soul must be purged. As a result, as the Soul draws closer to re-uniting with its own Origin, these impurities will manifest thru the current life subjective ego that the Soul’s own ego contains.

These impurities can be many things, depending on the specific nature of each Soul, but all Souls in this subdivision will share one common impurity: the ‘ego’ of the Soul that is still identifying itself as somehow ‘separate’ from that which has created it. This ongoing delusion is thus reflected in the subjective ego that the Soul creates.

This common impurity will then then be exhibited in specific psychological behaviors that essentially boil down to such Souls pointing the way to themselves as the vehicle of ‘salvation’, or to know God/ess; while at the same time, pretending that they are not. In other words, they are extremely good salespeople that peddle God/ess as the hook, in order to have themselves revered as the way to actually know God/ess.

There is always a hidden or secret egocentric agenda within these Souls, that is masked by the overlay of whatever spiritual or religious teaching they are representing. Examples of this, in recent modern history, would be Bagawan Rajneesh (Osho), Claire Prophet, ZZ Knight (Ramtha), Da Free John, Rasputin, and the like.

As the Soul evolves through this subdivision, it finally realizes the nature of this root impurity. As a result, it experiences a ‘natural’ guilt. This guilt is then used by the Soul to create its own downfall, in order to ‘atone’ for that guilt. The downfall can occur in many different ways, depending on the specific nature of the circumstantial life that the Soul has generated. This downfall, caused by guilt and the need to atone for that guilt, thus serves as the final evolutionary development that allows the Soul to evolve into the third subdivision within the spiritual state.

c) the third subdivision within the Spiritual state: In the final subdivision within the spiritual state the Soul is now finally and firmly identified with that which has created it: The Source Of All Things. The center of gravity within consciousness has finally centered within the Soul, not on the subjective ego created by the Soul.

At this point in the evolution of the Soul, all subsequent evolution through this final subdivision will be focused on the elimination of any separating desires that the Soul still has. Because of this final shift within consciousness to the Soul itself, the Soul is inwardly attuned to the Source Of All Things in such a way that it perceives itself as but a singular manifestation of the Source. Simultaneously, the Soul perceives all others, all of Creation, as manifestations of that Source.

Thus the Soul’s inner and outer responses to life itself, how life is understood and interpreted, how it comes to understand the nature of the life it is currently living, how it understands the purpose for the current life, and how it comes to make decisions relative to the life being lived, are all based on this inner attunement and alignment with that which has Created it.

As evolution begins in this final subdivision the Soul inwardly feels and knows that it is here to serve The Source in some way. It knows that it can not just live for itself. It knows that it has some kind of work to do on behalf of the Source. The consciousness of the Soul at this point is entirely structured to give to others, and to give purely without any ulterior agenda or motive involved. The nature of the work will always involve the theme of teaching or healing in some way.

Because the Soul is now consciously identified with the Source, the very nature of the Souls own vibration radiates in such a way that many others are drawn to it like a magnet. Many other Souls are drawn magnetically to these Souls, because they also reflect and radiate a fundamental wisdom of life, of a deep compassion at the ‘human condition’. This occurs because, after all, these Souls have traveled a very long evolutionary journey, which has taken them through almost every kind of life experience imaginable.

Such Souls are naturally very unassuming, naturally humble, and have no desire whatsoever for any kind of acclaim to their ego. Quite the opposite: they shy away from such things and always remind anyone who tries to give them acclaim of any kind for that which they do, that all things come from God, or the Source. They only point the way ‘Home’, and never to themselves.

Conversely, these Souls can also attract to themselves others who project onto them all manner of judgments, projection of motives, intentions, of ‘who they really are’, and wholesale persecution. The reason this occurs is because the very nature of these Souls is fundamentally pure, and full of the inner Light of the Source. As a result, their own inner light has the effect of ‘exposing’ the impurities in others, of the actual reality of others, versus the persona created by others; of others actual intentions and motives for anything. Accordingly, those who do this kind of projection and so on feel threatene by these types of Souls, for they know they themselves are fundamentally dishonest, and that they are invested in having others believe in the persona they are creating to hide their actual reality/agendas. Feeling threatened thus causes these types of people to manifest this type of behavior (projections) with these Souls.

In the beginning of this third subdivision, the nature of the work that the Soul does, the number of people it is destined to help in some way through the vehicle of teaching or healing, is relatively small and limited to the immediate area of community in which they live. Progressively this evolves from a limited application to increasingly larger circles, in which the nature of the work on behalf of the Source increases.

In the end this increasing circle will include the entire world. And at the very end of evolution in this subdivision, the Soul will be remembered by countless others long after the physical life of the Soul is over – the nature of their life, and the teachings they represented. Examples of these types of Souls are ‘individuals’ like Jesus, Yogananda, Lao-Tzu, Buddha, Mohammed, Saint Teresa, and so on.

It is important to remember, again, that these are the natural evolutionary conditions that reflect the current reality of all peoples on Earth. For those who wish to use evolutionary astrology, it is essential that you make the necessary observations of any given person to determine their evolutionary state, and to then orient yourself to their natal chart accordingly. Again, one size does not fit all.

God Bless, Rad

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Wei
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 07, 2018, 04:21 PM »

Hi,Rad,

非常谢谢,你说的很清楚,我明白了,也谢谢你的鼓励。关于演化阶段,你说让我相信自己的判断,把握住与演化阶段有关的核心原型,等等。这些我深有同感,也是这么做的。过去在实践的时候,我比较有把握判断的是合群阶段的人,另外一个就是艺术家们,个体化阶段的艺术家,结合对他们生平的了解,以及可能我以前比较喜欢文学,所以判断他们的演化阶段,感受其中细微的表现(不同的演化阶段会有很多微妙的细节),这些我比较有把握。但是我判断不了灵性演化阶段,包括个体化阶段的灵性现象,那简直对我就是一团雾水。

所以,我想问(Wei也想问),怎么判断个体化阶段和灵性演化阶段的灵性现象呢?

All the best!

kismine

Hi Rad, here is translation for Kismine:

Thank you very much for clarification, I understand now, also thanks for your encouragement. I resonate deeply with what you said about evolutionary state, I need to understand the archetypes that define the various evolutionary states of soul, and trust my own judgement. I have been doing this, in practices, based on understanding of people's life, it's easier for me to tell souls in consensus state, or artists in individuated state. Also because I'm into literature, I am able to grasp subtle details of souls in consensus and individuated evolutionary state. But I'm very confused about spiritual state, including spiritual expression within individuated state.

Would you mind clarify further, what's the core difference, when a soul drawn into spiritual path in individuated state, and a soul already entered spiritual state, especially in Krishnamurti's case? Would you please give example to help me understand, what would be possible manifestation for his soul's future, when he enters spiritual state?
« Last Edit: Nov 07, 2018, 09:52 PM by Wei » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 08, 2018, 06:28 AM »

Hi Kismine,

Here is a description of the 3rd Individuated State:

 In the third subdivision of the individuated state, the Soul will then begin to manifest within society or reality as a truly unique and gifted person, from the viewpoint of the consensus.

This means that such Souls will have in some way a unique gift, or capacity, to help the consensus itself evolve, through integrating that capacity or gift within the consensus. Yet these people will not inwardly feel identified with the consensus: they stand inwardly very distant from it. The consciousness of these Souls has progressively expanded through the individuated state in such a way that they are aware of the entire world and the relativity of beliefs, values, moralities, and so on. As a result they will feel within themselves to be ‘world citizens’ much more than being a singular citizen of the country of birth.

The inner pondering of the very nature of existence, the nature of Creation, the nature of who they ‘really’ are, essentially defines the nature of their consciousness. Progressively, these people begin to really open up their consciousness to the universal, the cosmos, to God/ess. Not the God/ess defined through consensus religions, but the real or natural God/ess. A perfect example in recent history of such a soul is Albert Einstein.

Now read the 1st Stage Spiritual State that I posted above. That is the next steps in Krishnamurti's evolution which will continue through the 2nd and 3rd stages in the spiritual evolutionary state.

God Bless, Rad
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Kismine
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 09, 2018, 02:51 AM »

HI,Rad and Wei,

I see.Thank you very much.always gratitude your help and guidance.

Namaste

Kismine
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