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Author Topic: Medical Astrology  (Read 14229 times)
Rad
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« on: Jun 14, 2013, 08:06 AM »

Hi All,

We have had some preliminary discussions on the possibility of doing a thread on medical astrology which is reflected below. I would like to know how many people would in fact be interested in actively participating in such a thread, and what thoughts you may wish to share about this possibility as it relates to various legal issues from different countries.

God Bless, Rad

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Rad   

Hi Wendy,

I am considering that, at some point, of starting a medical thread in which we can review and discuss the anatomical and physiological astrological correlations that JWG taught.

God Bless,Rad
   
Upasika      

I'd be totally into that Rad, it'd be so wonderful if you did that !   
   
Hi Upasika,

Well I am really thinking about it. If we do it it will have to be done very carefully because of various laws in various countries concerning medical laws. So am thinking about how to do it in such a way as to not violate any of these things.

God Bless, Rad
   
Wendy

Hi Rad,

I would totally be into studying JWG's perspective on medical astrology!  I am aware of medical astrological laws and hope we can find a way to pursue.  I'm not sure its a problem to study it, it's more of an issue when applying it with clients, for money, at least that is my understanding.

Thanks and God Bless,
Wendy

   
ari moshe   

Oh gee I'd love the opportunity to practice that Rad.
One thought that shows up is to preface that thread with a disclaimer of some sort.
   
Upasika   

Hi Rad / all,

I can see we would need to be sure we were legally protected. I'm no lawyer, but I cannot imagine how any country that legally supports free speech could object to the simple learning/discussion of medical astrology that such a thread would amount to ...??

As Wendy says, applying the knowledge to clients for money is an entirely different issue - numerous countries have laws restricting what may be possible. But that would be something each participant/reader would need to take responsibility for, by clarifying for themselves what exactly they are permitted to do by law in their respective countries. Often it amounts to not being allowed to advertise or officially practice medicine without certain qualifications/permits.

My own view though, is that having the knowledge itself can do no harm, and even if only used indirectly, could potentially be very helpful. In the vein of what Ari suggested for the thread itself (which seems a good idea), I'd initially give any potential recipient of medical advice from me a full unconditional disclaimer (possibly signed by them) to the effect that I am not medically qualified as such, and unless confirmed as safe by their healthcare professional, to approach cautiously as any suggestion I gave must be used at their own risk.

However, used with sensitivity, intuition and maturity ... given how amazingly accurate EA is in it's workings, I would sense this knowledge could be invaluable to have at our disposal and could potentially benefit many. My feeling about it anyway...

blessings Upasika

   
Rad      

Hi Upasika, Wendy, and Ari

Thanks for your thoughts/ suggestions about this. I will consider your suggestions, and others, to see if it will be ok to do this. If we do it will occur after we are done with the thread on the planetary method.

God Bless,Rad
   
Gonzalo   

Hi Rad,

I would like to add my opinion about the potential for legal liability arising from postings related to health issues. Personally I would like to have the opinion of a US lawyer involved in this legal area, but I don’t know who to ask, so I’m just posting my opinion and what I discussed with a couple of other Chilean lawyers.

1) Even though in principles there should be no question that the intention of the thread would be the EA learning of medical astrology, and not the counseling of clients or patients, there are in fact many people who are seeking medical information on the internet, for their own health improvement or their client’s health. Also, there are many websites offering medical information. Here I found some information on this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1761893/

2) Some of the information that these ‘patients’ or practitioners can find in this way can be suitable for their health needs, and some not, depending on each case, and since offering or just posting health information is different than counseling and prescribing-which needs to occur on an individual basis- in principle it should be the sole ‘patient’ or practitioner’s liability if they chose to apply the ‘information’ to the individual case.

3) This also involves the freedom of expression which is so important in the US constitution, much more than in other countries.

4) HOWEVER, the potential does exist that someone may wrongly apply the information and knowledge to an individual case to which it is not applicable, and obtain undesired results. Further, I can imagine that posting health information that can provide an accurate understanding or diagnosis, beyond consensus, or information that can work in very effective ways in the cases when it does apply, such as EA and Rad’s knowledge can offer, can attract people wanting to put such source of information down. And, in these cases, the ‘arguments’ against this would of course revolve around medical information ethics, medical fraud (http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/06/cureall.shtm), etc. A specific point to consider relates to ‘alternative’ remedies, and further, some remedies which the same website offers or refers to.

5) I totally agree with the need to consider a very clear DISCLAIMER. I think a Disclaimer should state:

(1) That the information posted has a general nature, or applies only to the real or hypothetic birthcharts discussed, and does not mean to be applicable to other people.

(2) That each individual case is unique, and thus, the individual people should not rely solely on EA medical information that has not been given on an individual consultation basis.

(3) That the information provided originates in astrological and alternative medical understanding, and not necessarily in medical science, and that the EA practitioners are not medical doctors or acting as such.

(4) That the type of medical information or knowledge that is shared here, including references to alternative remedies, is not meant to replace medical treatments or prescriptions when applicable, and that each individual person should always consult their own personal medical advisor.

Such type of Disclaimer could perhaps be added in the “If this is your first visit, please read this first”, in the heading of the thread, and automated to appear in the individual posts within the thread.   

I think such type of Disclaimer should suffice, but I still feel that perhaps it could be good to have a US lawyer opinion on this matter anyway. I’m wondering who could I ask having knowledge in this field who would be willing to give advice without charging, but perhaps some other participating in this message board can have closer connections with US lawyers.

God Bless, Gonzalo
   
cat777   

In regard to Medical Astrology, Eileen Nauman is possibly the foremost authority on Medical Astrology in the U.S.  She wrote a classic text way back in 1970 I believe.  Naumean is not afraid to share her knowledge or findings on-line or in print.  She is however very  good at pointing out what you should, can, should,'t and can't do with such knowledge.

There should be no reason why we can't discuss Medical Astrology here and learn what JWG taught.  Like Gonzalo suggests there should be a disclaimer.

Here is a good article on the subject:

http://innerself.com/content/self-help/personal-growth/astrology/health/5569-medical-astrology.html

The important part:

"As a medical astrologer, the goal is not to prescribe for the client (which is against the law) but rather to become a clearing-house of information, in addition to educating a client about possible choices. A medical counselor can become the hub of a wheel, educating him/herself in many systems of medicine, and approaches to healing, that are available to clients.

It is very important not to misrepresent what you are and what you do. When a client accepts you as a medical astrologer, it is not the same as if s/he accepts you as his/her "doctor". Nothing could be further from the truth. In essence, you are a healer using the tool of astrology as a focus on health-related problems. Your responsibility is to send this individual (after informing him/her of the many choices s/he has) in a direction s/he has chosen and is comfortable with to seek competent medical help.

A medical astrologer does not tell a client to take a vitamin, mineral, herb, homeopathic remedy, or anything else. The medical astrologer educates the client about these things, then leaves the responsibility of choice up to the person. One's health is one's own responsibility. Gradually, people in this country are coming to view and accept this vital concept. Your health is your responsibility."
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Wendy
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 14, 2013, 03:10 PM »

I'm in Rad - I have been thinking about this since it was first mentioned here on the MB.  

I know there are other message boards that discuss medical astrology, so I'm not sure we would be doing anything illegal.  Gonzalo's post seemed to cover the issues, so maybe we could start a discussion based on his comments-suggestions.

I should mention, I have been dealing with several long standing health issues, so when I "disappear" from the MB it's because I don't have the energy to participate.  Getting to the root of things now, thus looking forward to that changing soon.

Thanks,
Wendy
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cat777
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 14, 2013, 06:43 PM »

Hi Rad,

I am very interested in this topic.  As long as there is a disclaimer that we are doing it for educational purposes only, I do not really see it as a problem.  I'm not a lawyer,  but it seems that it is no different than discussing any type of holistic health subject (herbs, Reiki, Yoga etc) - we just have to be very clear that its for educational purposes and that anyone suffering from a health problem should consult with a medical professional.

cat
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Kristin
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 15, 2013, 09:29 AM »

Hi Rad,

I too am very interested in this topic. I do hope this thread happens because the material would be invaluable for studying and practicing Evolutionary Astrologers. In terms of the time I can dedicate to it will depend on where the Darwin thread goes. I will definitely be following this thread, but not sure if I could manage both at the same time due to the time required. I will do what I can though if it happens.

Thank you for bringing this back and being open to carrying it forward.

Peace,
Kristin
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JJ
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 15, 2013, 08:05 PM »

Hi everybody,

I know a bit about this topic as a non-MD licensed medical professional. I will share the knowledge that I have on the topic. The 2-cents I want to add to the discussion regards the practice of medical astrology, not the question of posting on the MB.

Unfortunately when it comes to medicine in the US, if you are diagnosing using western medical language, you have now entered the territory of practicing medicine and you can be sued for practicing medicine without a license. Diagnosing means that you establish a cause or name a condition using medical language, e.g. "you have a condition caused by the erratic functioning of the pancreas," or "you have osteoporosis," or "there is a breakdown of the integrity of the b and t cells." etc.

Licensed medical professionals such as licensed acupuncturists cannot diagnose either unless they are practicing in a state in which they are considered a primary care provider or in which their scope of practice allows for it. They are limited to the language of their profession. In the case of Chinese medicine it would be "liver heat rising" or "spleen qi deficiency", but they can not translate that into a western diagnosis such as hypothyroidism or migraine headaches etc. They have to work with other medical professionals who are licensed to make these kind of diagnoses.

So as medical astrologers it would be okay to say that because Saturn squares Jupiter in this house and this sign, etc you could take this supplement or do this thing. But once you translate into western medical language now you have crossed into the scope of practice of licensed professionals. As someone else already suggested, you could certainly point people in a direction and send them to a practitioner to get a diagnosis to confirm your astrological diagnosis.

Another thing you absolutely cannot do is advise someone to not take prescription medication that they are already taking. That would fall in the realm of "prescribing" even if it is un-prescribing. If you interfere with the prescriptions or instructions given by another medical provider's previous diagnosis, this is also considered to be practicing medicine. What you can do is suggest that something else be done in addition.

The medical profession is governed by torte law, as opposed to contract law, which means that all medical professionals are judged by the standard of practice set by their peers. That is one reason why medicine is sooooo slow to integrate any new understandings or alternative perspectives into practice. Because if you are practicing medicine in a way that is different than the standards set by your peers, you can be liable for malpractice. To suggest that agreements made between doctor and patient somehow legally protects you, is to not understand the law. That would be the case if medicine fell under the domain of contract law, but it doesn't. Sorry to say.

Having said all of this, you do have legal protection to practice medical astrology if you practice in a freedom of healthcare state. These states are Minnesota, California, Rhode Island, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Idaho and New Mexico. In these states people are free to practice any healthcare system, even if it is unlicensed and does not infringe on the scope of practice of other licensed practitioners. There are some general guidelines to follow in these cases:
1. The practitioner must clearly state their scope and duration of training.
2. They must practice within the scope of that training.
3. The client should sign a waiver stating that they understand that the practitioner is an unlicensed professional and they are assuming the risk for following any advice or treatments.
4. The practitioner must not misrepresent themselves and their knowledge in any fashion to try to appear as if they know more than what they have studied in their field.
You can refer to the specific guidelines for each state by doing a search for the freedom of healthcare act in that state and reading the parameters for your state.

I would also suggest looking into the HIPAA regulations which govern privacy in the medical profession and establish a practice that conforms to the guidelines for protecting clients privacy; such as having secure and private files, if you keep documentation of your readings.

I hope this information is helpful. I don't want people to be naive about what they are getting themselves into with practicing medical astrology and then have to potentially risk losing any assets that they may have simply because they made the mistake of saying the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time. When people are grieving, after a death, illness or injury, it is very easy for them to look for someone to blame. And the alternative practitioners are easy targets, if they haven't been vigilant about following the law.

In gratitude and service,
JJ
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Upasika
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 16, 2013, 02:36 AM »

Hi Rad & all,

Seems we are feeling our way forward, with posts by everyone helping the picture become clearer.

And it seems several at least are keen to learn about EA medical astrology (I definitely am), but that applying the knowledge in real life is a different thing altogether, depending on where one lives and the situation in place there regarding giving medical advice.

So it seems we just need to clarify the legal requirements for disseminating the information (from a USA based server) - there is nothing else we would be doing, simply discussing medical astrology. Unless a real person offers their chart for us to practise on, we would not be actually dispensing medical advice to a person (and even if we were, it may only be a problem if that person is from the USA?).  If there is actually a problem with using a real person, we could just use a chart cast arbitrarily, or use charts based on anonymous birth data. Thus diagnosis may be done using western language, but it wouldn't be a diagnosis of anybody in particular.

And combine this with the disclaimer we've talked about. Ideally the disclaimer would be in the shape of a popup form containing the disclaimer text with an OK (I understand and agree) button, and a Cancel button on the form, OK takes you to the thread, Cancel refuses you entry. That way everyone having access to the thread would have demonstrated an explicit acknowledgement of the disclaimer. Not sure if that could be done using the MB tools? But otherwise the disclaimer could be at the start of the thread, and the bottom of every post perhaps?  

blessings Upasika
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2013, 05:37 AM by Upasika » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 16, 2013, 07:40 AM »

Hi All,

Certainly am welcoming all the thoughts/ observations of those who are interested in this potential thread of the EA of medical astrology. We should remember within all that astrology itself has it's own history and tradition of medical astrology for at least a couple thousand years. Mentioning this because of some of the comments from JJ relative to certain states in the USA that allow for this.

The server for this website is located in the USA. I, as the moderator, am not. Our site is certainly international in scope relative to our members being from so many countries other than the USA.

I would welcome other comments from anyone on what we have been discussing, and I am still waiting to see just how many actually want to participate in this thread. If it is to go forwards my thought on doing this thread would be to start very simply with the astrological correlations to anatomy/ physiology, and the chakra system that Wolf taught, correlations relative to the planets, signs, houses.  I certainly don't see any potential legal issues with that at all given that astrology does have it's own lengthy history and tradition concerning this.

From there I would I would begin to discuss aspects to various planets, planets in houses, and signs on houses that will correlate to the interaction / dynamics that occur within the anatomy/ physiology manifesting as specific physical manifestations within the body. Within this what the chakra's actually are,i.e. spinal plexuses,  and how they, of themselves, correlate to the anatomy/ physiology within the body. And, from there, how in combination the chakra system and the traditional western correlations interact and manifest.

I would think, as well, that we could certainly work with projected charts, not the charts of real people, in order to make all of this come alive. With all the disclaimers in place I do not see a problem with the legally speaking from any countries point of view.

So, again, would very much like any additional thoughts / feedback on all of this.

God Bless, Rad
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Sunyata
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 16, 2013, 01:22 PM »

My thoughts are that I would love to see this subject matter covered as it relates to EA. I am very much looking forward to it.
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Skywalker
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 17, 2013, 04:33 AM »

Hi Rad and all,

I would love to participate in learning more about this topic.

My suggestions are that it isn´t called "Medical Astrology" but something like "The Astrology of Human Anatomy" or "Health Related Astrology".

In addition to the disclaimers, which are a good, essential idea, there could be some guidelines as to how to apply the knowledge to clients, in order to avoid the Astrologer doing any harm to anyone or him/herself. For example: The Astrologer is not intended to replace a doctor and should always suggest the client seeks professional help for his/her condition.

In studying charts it would be a good idea to work with charts of people who are famous or not alive anymore, which had certain illnesses or conditions that are documented. Like that we can work with real cases.

I also very much like the idea of working with the Chakras and Meridians, how the flow of prana/chi effects one´s physical health and how it can be seen thru the lens of Astrology. To find out the why and how, on an energetic/psychological/emotional/spiritual/physical level of any condition.

Thank you for the opportunity!
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Rad
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 26, 2013, 10:11 AM »

Hi to all those interested in a astrological/ ea/ medical thread ....

So right now I have as interested Ari, Gonzalo, Kristin, Cat, Sunyata, Skywalker, Wendy, and Upasika. Please let me know if each one of you is still interested.

I have decided we will go forwards with this thread. I really appreciate all of your thoughts including the need to make a disclaimer. I also agree we can use historical charts of famous folks to help illustrate the astrological archetypes that correlate to physiology, anatomy, and the chakra systems.

I am wondering if any of you that want to participate in this thread would be able to make a succinct, yet comprehensive, disclaimer notice that we can post at the very beginning of our thread. Please let me know if you can help.

God Bless, Rad
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Gonzalo
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 26, 2013, 11:39 AM »

Hi Rad .. yes, I'm interested in participating in this thread, and thank you so much for this opportunity.
I will write a 'disclaimer' and post it soon.
God Bless, Gonzalo
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Gonzalo
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 26, 2013, 01:52 PM »

It could go something like this:

"NOTICE. Readers of this thread on Medical Astrology are advised that the information and case analyses contained herein are study materials posted by the School of Evolutionary Astrology or by EA students or EA practicing astrologers, and is intended to serve those who are engaged in learning Medical Astrology from an EA point of view. The information posted is general in nature, or applies only to the real or hypothetic cases which are discussed. Each individual case is unique, and thus, you should not directly apply this astrological medical information to other individual cases. Personal advice on Medical Astrology can only be given on an individual consultation basis. Information or knowledge on Medical Astrology, or relating to alternative or complementary remedies, as discussed in this thread, is not meant to replace medical treatments or prescriptions, and you should always consult your own personal medical advisor. You can go ahead and read the posts in this thread, provided that you understand the above and agree with the terms of this Notice."
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Wendy
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 26, 2013, 02:28 PM »

Hi Rad - yes I am still interested.  Thank you.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 26, 2013, 08:25 PM »

Hi Rad, I'm interested and super excited for this opportunity. Thank you so much.
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Skywalker
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 27, 2013, 02:25 AM »

I´m in Rad, thank you!
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