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Author Topic: timing of soul incarnations  (Read 1514 times)
chuck h
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Posts: 30


« on: Oct 03, 2009, 02:00 PM »

Hi everyone!

I was wondering about the 'release' of souls into their initial incarnations.  Are they all released at once...like grabbing a 5 lb bag of flour at its bottom, then turning it over and shaking...thus the different stages of spiritual evolution are determined entirely by free will...some souls leaping higher and faster than others?

Or, are we released for the first time in groups of hundreds or thousands (I wonder if God deals in even or odd numbers, or has concerns about symmetry of release {times and quantities} )?

I'm not being a smart-alec, this is foundational material on which to build into EA's more complex discussions.  How does the whole thing work?  If we are incarnated in groups, do these groups spiral together until each has made it back to Source...playing changing roles for each other's learning benefit?  Is there overlap of group...or individual expression?  Are the goals the same for all groups (reabsorbtion)?    

The Oneness (us) never is un-whole...or separated, so all the 'downloading' of souls is illusional?  Only with the purpose of...what?  Play?  Expression? Return?

The One, the Source, God...Being ALL, cannot be expanded, right?
so 'growth' can't be the purpose.  The One Soul then, is simply playing with him/herself?   Is 'irreverence' frowned on.  Does anything really 'matter'?

Forgive the naive flailings, please.  I mean no disrespect.  I really am only looking for perspective...and in that, am totally serious.

thanks, if you could help,
chuck
 
« Last Edit: Oct 03, 2009, 02:02 PM by chuck h » Logged
Bradley J
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 03, 2009, 04:49 PM »

chuck h,
appreciate the humor and seriousness.
Everything can be so paradoxical from this perspective.

I wanted to add the ideas of nonlinear time, and incarnations on earth relative to other places and dimensions in space and time to experience forms of existence.
hmmm...
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Lia
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Posts: 135


« Reply #2 on: Oct 05, 2009, 07:47 AM »

Hi Chuck and All,

I too like your way of expressing it humorously :-) it is actually a great question.....

Well, I just like to add my 2 cents to this -- far from thinking it is the whole answer! - but this is how I perceive it:
There are many different planes of existence...so incarnation on planet earth is but ONE particular way within creation relative to souls and their evolution...
There is expansion (as well as contraction) ONLY within the manifested creation....there is evolution/involution only within the manifested creation...so your question (to me) applies to that part of the ‘absolute’...
To me (how I can understand the bottomline of what you asked for, or what I UNDERSTAND you are asking about) is the fact that the time and space reality which has to do with what we call 'linear' (so order as what came before and after and evolution of course is a PART of that) is only one aspect of creation....there is what we call 'transcendence' which is above what is linear, including time and space....so to understand that what is above time and space and linear we need detach from all that is linear....including the 'what came before' etc....for manifesting something within the linear time and space reality doesn't APPLY to that which is above it....

For what isn't within the time and space reality can NOT BE measured in a linear way...let say in the causal universe something (everything) has been created at the creation point...yet something may be 'timely' to manifest WITHIN the time and space reality (either on planet earth or elsewhere) at a particular POINT for some particular purpose.......meaning something that eternally exist IN THE CAUSAL UNIVERSE will manifest only at a particular point ..not because it was earlier or later simply because it is the divine plan.....that is above time and space but AFFECT AND ACTUALLY DEFINE the manifestation of that time and space reality.....it’s part of it....part of the divine plan.....

For us within the time and space reality there is linear order (appears to be at least) ....but that part of us which is connected to the Source is connected eternally transcendently.....so that part doesn't change.....so while we live and evolve within the time and space reality our essence remains changeless within the Source....in the same  ‘time’....what evolves is the self-conscious part....embracing ever more the ‘other part‘ which remains intact within the Source....‘there’ is no level, no time and no differentiation.....while ‘here’ we evolve struggle and all the rest....that’s the job, the service, the role we play....

Within that ‘role’ here are many many reasons for the different consciousness levels between souls, NOT ONE OR THE OTHER reason......those reasons are part of the things that can't be understood via linear thinking simply because it is not based on linear occurrences.......reasons that are far beyond that....
I can only explain this in a way that creation is NEITHER and yet also EITHER at the same ‘time’ (for no better word) continuous/unending and yet 'done'......it is a matter of where are we looking at it? So it depends on the point of VIEW.....for if we look at it from the time and space reality it is continuous and unending....yet if we look at it from a transcendent (so above time and space etc. limitation) it is already 'done' and always have been.......meaning whatever will be and ever can be and was, or could have been etc. has ‘already’ BEEN CREATED....it all exist on the plane of the so called ‘causal universe’.....where everything that exist come from.......simply because otherwise it can not BE...it is that simple (or that complicated  Roll Eyes again depending on where are we looking at it )

The nature of the absolute (symbolized by neptune, pisces 12 house astrologically speaking) is not linear......therefore our linear existence is based on that which isn‘t linear, it includes the linear and all ‘logics’ of it but it is far more than that...........yet we are within the time and space reality mostly think within linear terms......from here to there, what came before and after etc....and yet there is NO before and/or after above time .....there is NO here and/or there beyond space and so on....

There is only manifested order (which becomes the time and space measure) looking at it from WITHIN the time and space reality....but the reasons and causes reach far beyond the limitation of that reality.......

Hope this makes sense?

So compare to the ‘absolute’ expansion is not possible you are right Chuck....however the manifested creation is less, or just a part of that ’absolute’ therefore expansion within the manifested creation is possible even more it is the goal or purpose of it......expanding consciousness from within the limited self-consciousness brings the consciousness back to it’s origin point- and that is the absolute ....

As for the difference between souls’ consciousness levels etc. there can be many reasons...not one OR the other....again we need to let go our need to identify this from the time and space reality....what is TIMELY to manifest according to the divine plan is not necessarily because something was created ‘earlier’ or ‘later’....

So what I am trying to say is that there is of course the free will and choice making within the souls and yet there are other reasons that are so far above our ‘grasp’ within the time and space reality and the resulting linear perception....it is I think very important to be aware of this even if we don’t understand it fully....

Meaning we can NOT assume that consciousness-level differences are BECAUSE one soul wanted to evolve and the other didn’t....there are many other reasons within the mystery of the divine plan...would we assume for example that all animals are ‘lazy’ for they didn’t evolve yet to human form? So they are inferior to us....and so on....

there is a NECESSITY within our created world to a certain number of DIFFERENT life forms THAT ENSURES THE LIFE OF THE PLANET AS A WHOLE UNIT....well, just imagine what would happen to the planet if all forms of life all of a sudden manifested in human forms at the same ‘time;? 

Maybe there are life forms who appear (for us) in a far lower evolutionary state and yet they are fulfilling the necessary service that has been asked from their soul from the Divine....so I personally think it is not our ‘job’ to try to identify what could be the reason/cause for whatever soul/form of life to be where they are at...our ‘job’ is to simply try to do the best we can  relative to where we are at.....no matter where is that at the end it is all equal.....totally and absolutely equal in the transcendent aspect of creation.....there is a ‘role’ within the divine drama that we are playing at any point of so called ‘time and space’......it is neither a punishment or a privilege.....the only thing that we can really know is just that relative to the consciousness what we have did we try to do our best or not...that’s all.....

And as the overall aim of creation: well as Wolf said it is 'god's way of  perfecting itself'...I personally feel that this again is true from the aspect of the manifested creation...and from there it is very true....as from the ‘point of view’ of the absolute well..... that's not an easy subject Roll Eyes Grin...
To me at least it feels the EXPERIENCE itself is what the 'goal' is.....the infinite possibilites that exist within the 'dream'......the divine dream... that the ‘dreamer’ identifies itself with the dream and it’s objects and subjects........which at the end (to me) is to reach (experience) the ecstasy of love and compassion in it’s highest level in infinite ways.......as a particle as part of the dream and yet realising that at the end it is both the dream and the dreamer.....to me the goal appears to be the experience of that ultimate happiness of ecstasy and bliss........that the soul feels it was worth to go through the ‘dream’ (evolution) that  it worth it all at the end......that experience soaked in the highest aspect of unconditional love is what ‘worth’ the participation ....meaning what worth the ‘separation’ at the first place is the homecoming at the end....
 

Well, of course this is only my view, my understanding -- and I might even add: at this point of time, in the here and now Smiley
So I just offer it for what it is; my own intuitive perception which may (or may not?) help others to formulate their own perception......

Blessings,
Lia
« Last Edit: Oct 05, 2009, 11:20 AM by Lia » Logged
chuck h
Member

Posts: 30


« Reply #3 on: Oct 05, 2009, 02:36 PM »

Bradley,

Thank you for replying...and adding your, ''hmmm?'' to mine.  Smiley Wink


Lia said
Quote
And as the overall aim of creation: well as Wolf said it is 'god's way of  perfecting itself'...I personally feel that this again is true from the aspect of the manifested creation...and from there it is very true....as from the ‘point of view’ of the absolute well..... that's not an easy subject  ...
To me at least it feels the EXPERIENCE itself is what the 'goal' is.....the infinite possibilites that exist within the 'dream'......the divine dream... that the ‘dreamer’ identifies itself with the dream and it’s objects and subjects........which at the end (to me) is to reach (experience) the ecstasy of love and compassion in it’s highest level in infinite ways.......as a particle as part of the dream and yet realising that at the end it is both the dream and the dreamer.....to me the goal appears to be the experience of that ultimate happiness of ecstasy and bliss........that the soul feels it was worth to go through the ‘dream’ (evolution) that  it worth it all at the end......that experience soaked in the highest aspect of unconditional love is what ‘worth’ the participation ....meaning what worth the ‘separation’ at the first place is the homecoming at the end....
 


Lia,

Thank you so much for your wonderful reply, for helping me understand these concepts.  This is a far different response than when, as a catholic gradeschooler, I'd ask such a question and promptly be escorted to the cloak room for a nice ruler-rap across the knuckles.  Grin Grin Grin

I think what you are saying is that questions of the 'transcendent' nature of the Soul are of little, if any, value from the 'manifest' perspective.  T-Pluto is approaching (within three degrees now) square to 11th house Libra N-Neptune from the 2nd house.  This is probably behind the desire to get this confusion clarified on a post, or trans-human level of understanding...but this is simply not possible now.

You are right...the questions are about the 'unknowable', the 'Divine plan' as you call it.  But curiosity (not a strong enough term) cannot be quelled.  Living in the moment...doing the best we can is all that is required, of course, so what is the purpose of attempting to solve the entire puzzle? 

Then I read your above quoted paragraph (brilliant) about a non-perfect God, and the whole thing takes on a different perspective.  There IS room for growth thru endless experience (work and play).  And the 'service' required of us is to develop, thru our interactions, one with another, Divine Compassion and Love (Neptune).  But even if it is all for the sole purpose of helping All/One/Godd/ess have corporal experience, it is well worth the adventure(s), as we are each, ultimately, that All/One/God/ess...and helping others, as well as little self to recognize this is the source of all joy.

making progress
thanks to all of you,
chuck

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Lia
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Posts: 135


« Reply #4 on: Oct 05, 2009, 04:42 PM »

Hi Chuck,

I'm glad it made sense...
...as for being escorted here and there for our questions others didn't like to hear; well I know the feeling too and believe me we aren't alone Roll Eyes Grin

of the 'transcendent' nature of the Soul are of little, if any, value from the 'manifest' perspective. 

Well I wouldn't say that...it DOES have an absolute importance and value...it is just that for long we do not know that (relative to evolving self consciousness) ...it doesn't take it away and the ultimate value of it...for that's what we REALISE at the very end....

It is like we are looking for a door and for so long we believed it's here or there and we hit the wall instead.......than we start to believe that there is no door...and yet it always have been there and always waited for us....no regards what we believed or how much we couldn't see it or what we imagined instead........

I think it is a wonderful aim to participate in the strive for perfection within the manifested aspect of the divine...of creation....and I think that your question and curiosity as you put it is what comes right from the deep Source-intact aspect of your soul....for all souls at one point of their evolution can't help but ask the same question in essence...so it is simply universal - meaning that's how we are created ...to seek the answers for these kinds of questions....

To me it means that you are in the spiritual state....that is when the answers will be sought from within.....no matter who taught what or how they were or are trying to silence the human in you, the soul gets the upper hand so to speak......don’t worry, that 'curiosity' can never stop and never meant to stop.... Cheesy

love and blessings
Lia

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chuck h
Member

Posts: 30


« Reply #5 on: Oct 05, 2009, 10:26 PM »

Hi Lia,

Thanks for the encouraging and complimentery reply.

I was just looking over some Dane Rudhyar material and came across the following excerpt:

Quote
One may state the same idea in religious terms by saying that the birth-chart of a person represents "God's idea" of that person and of the function he should perform within the society and the planet in which he is born. A birth-chart is a formula of potentialities. The one task of the person having this birth-chart is to actualize as fully as possible this set of potentialities within the environment of his birth, an environment which can be greatly expanded, yet remains birth-centered. The individual is not different from this set of potentialities. His freedom is relative and it consists basically in being able to gain a true and complete picture of himself. He can only do this by freeing himself in varied ways from the mass of collective ideas, of group feelings and traditional behavior or patterns which have been forced into his consciousness of existence and of interpersonal relationships ever since he was born

I thought it was a bit of a synchronocity, because he is addressing the 'manifestation' responsibitlities we have, just like you did earlier.

Here is the link, if anyone would like to read:

http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/blueprintforthetotalyou.php

Thanks again, Lia  Smiley Smiley Smiley
Love and blessings to you, too
chuck

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