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Author Topic: General question about pluto-nodes paradigm.  (Read 5502 times)
Upasika
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 15, 2010, 11:14 AM »

Hi Rad,

Fascinating! ... showing the cause of the PPP and the wider context for any chart’s bottom.line. Thanks a lot for that.
 As it happens I have a friend who has almost the same signature as the one you used for your example, everything in the same signs and houses (except Saturn is in Virgo not Leo).
And interestingly enough the Moon (Pluto N.Node in Cancer ruler) ... is back in the 9th! in Virgo  (but not conj Pluto or Saturn).

Guess that's possibly a subtle version of keeping "one arm waving free" (but at a core Soul level) ?, reflecting a bit of residual ambivalence (which would then manifest on an ego/personality level) about following through on their intention in this lifetime of getting fully involved in discussions etc with others in urban/group situations, as indicated by the PPP (3rd house Aquarius). Would that be right?

Seeing that subtle paradox in that chart, it then occurred to me that one of the things that's really useful about this wider understanding of Pluto's evolutionary intentions in a chart, is how the intentions of the Soul (known from within itself) become implemented in a natal chart as the PPP, via the Moon and it's nodes and their rulers.
And also how the Moon and it's nodes and their rulers relate back to Pluto's nodes and their rulers.

To try and show what I mean by that, I'll use another example - an actual chart with some interesting paradoxes - (and also see how well I go !) ...

This chart has:
Pluto in Leo in 4th, Pluto's polarity point (PPP) in Aquarius in 10th
Pluto S.Node in Capricorn in 9th, ruler Saturn in Sag 8th  (and conjuncting the Moon's N.Node there too)
Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd, ruler Moon in Gem 2nd  (and conjuncting the Moon's S.Node there too)


This would correlate to a Soul that has embarked on a new evolutionary cycle, desiring to actualise itself through the development of internal security. In a nutshell this would be achieved by attaining emotional maturity, creatively establishing it's own individuality through it's own efforts, and uniting the anima and animus within itself  (Pluto Leo 4th). It would have done this in the context of having spent many lives travelling in different lands, experiencing different cultures, and expanding it's understanding of natural laws and nature itself (Pluto S.Node in 9th).

With Pluto S.Node ruler, Saturn, being in the 8th house in Sag, within each society that was lived in it would have been involved in a "hands on" way. It would correlate to someone who would learn by getting deeply involved in situations with other people (8th). For a Soul at consensus reality level, as an example, perhaps setting up business (Sat) of an entrepreneurial kind (Sag), or becoming involved in the political or judicial structure of that society at a local or national government level.  Alternatively, if the Soul was at the individuated reality stage ... they may have formed close associations with powerful people, outsiders to society, for the purposes of occult study (8th, Sag), operation of black markets (Sat, 8th) etc. If in the spiritual stage they may have joined spiritual groups for experiments with alchemy, study of scriptures etc (Sat, Sag 8th).


As the Soul experienced the limits of itself it would have desired to evolve beyond them, symbolised by Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd. This would represent a need to become less entangled in the affairs of any society and the individuals so involved, and a need to stop travelling around and to settle down more, gravitating to the relative isolation of living in just one place in order to develop a more personal self sufficiency and self reliance. To establish it's own set of values that made sense to just itself, instead of all the time incorporating the needs of other people it had attached to, into its sense of what was important. Taking care of the needs of its own self and immediate family members only.

In so doing external confrontations would occur as it withdrew from relationships of a societal and dependent nature, and internal confrontations via the insecurity it felt in then not being able to draw upon others for resources, advantage and as symbols of power ... a sense of loss of power and powerlessness would accompany the transition.

So ...stemming from these inner evolutionary desires and thus needs of the Soul, which are to move towards Cancer in 2nd house experiences (Pluto N.Node) and in turn doing that via Gemini in 2nd house experiences (Pluto N.Node ruler), a new life would be created to implement these core intentions, and in this case it is one where the PPP is in Aquarius in 10th.

And as an extension of that ... the Moon S.Node in Gem 2nd, and Moon N.Node in Sag 8th. However the Soul has also manifested in this new life the Moon conjuncting the Moon S.Node, and Saturn conjuncting the Moon N.Node. Here's where the paradoxes lie: the Soul's (Pluto's) nodal rulers, Saturn and Moon, are now each conjuncting one of the Moon's nodes in the new life !

With the Soul's (Pluto's) S.Node ruler in Sag in 8th, in theory the Soul has finished with that as a way of realising it's S.Node (Cap in 9th) intentions and is desiring to move towards Cancer in 2nd shown by Pluto N.Node, via 2nd house Gemini experiences shown by the placement of Pluto N.Node ruler, the Moon.  

Where it's aiming for in it's new life form is to realise the Aquarius 10th house archetype shown by PPP in the chart of the new life. And by doing this the Soul will be effecting it's evolutionary desire symbolised by Cancer in the 2nd house.
The life implied by PPP is one where the Soul will move again in society but in a different way to before. The intense, and possibly heavy, involvements of the 8th house from past lives give way to the more open (Aqu) and contributory manner of the 10th .Thus the person will be bringing everything they learnt (Sag), experienced (9th), and osmosed (8th) from past lives into a form (10th) that can be used in a much larger and more objective (Aqu) way in society. In other words the test will be - can they put their knowledge (Sag learning from past lives) to good use (10th) in this life in a way that benefits many people, not just themselves or others they are intimately entangled with (Plu S.Node ruler and Moon N.Node –Saturn- in 8th). Additionally they will be associating with groups of others of like mind based on broad human interests, innovative explorations and networking (Aqu) rather than the secretive and murky kinds of associations they may have involved themselves in the past (Plu S.Node ruler in 8th) and may still do (Moon N.Node in 8th) . All the while, building on the Soul’s core singular evolutionary intention and progress to date (Pluto in 4th), and a major part of it’s intentions for the future as well (Cancer in 2nd): actualising internal security.

This will be effected in the current life by a fair amount of reliving the past (paradox) as the Moon is conjunct the Moon’s S.Node in Gem, and Saturn is conjunct the Moon’s N.Node in Sag.

The Moon’s S.Node indicates the lessons the Soul has been learning before as part of actualising internal security, and being in Gemini this would have involved dynamics and the circumstances they created relating to, amongst other things, communications, thinking, study and commerce (Mercury ruling the Moon’s S.Node). This indicates that the Soul’s previous intense involvements from many lifetimes ago (Pluto S.Node ruler Saturn in 8th) had morphed into a lighter and less focussed way of relating to people in recent past lives, and that the Soul has been learning how to relate to much more diverse, and perhaps more common elements of society. This may have actually been a necessary preparatory step towards the future desire of withdrawing more from society (Pluto N.Node in Cancer 2nd) in that it may have afforded the Soul more choice in those lives, which would have been helpful on the way to coming closer to the self reliance and self sufficiency of the 2nd house. Also the Moon’s S.Node being in the 2nd house shows that the Soul has in recent lives already started learning the lessons it needs to, indicated by the Pluto’s N.Node (2nd house).

The Soul desires to move towards realisation of the Cancer in 2nd archetype (Pluto N.Node) with its ruler the Moon being instrumental in this – this is the Soul’s future. But with the Moon conjuncting the Moon’s S.Node in the current life this future process is now partially brought forward, hastened, due to the fact that experiences related to the Moon will be relived or fruited in some way (Moon conj Moon’s S.Node).

The Moon’s N.Node indicates the new way for the Soul to operate, new lessons to learn in this current (new) life that will help the Soul realise the PPP in this life, i.e to actualise self determination, discipline, social responsibility and to establish their individuality and authority within society. The lessons that will help the Soul achieve this will seem very familiar for this Soul, as they are shown by the Moon’s N.Node in Sag in 8th which it has experienced before (Plu S.Node ruler territory) and thus will remember on a Soul level.

Since Saturn is conjuncting the Moon’s N.Node and Saturn is also Pluto’s S.Node ruler, the Soul has done all of this before in previous lives (as described above). Here again there will be a lot of reliving as a result, but being at the N.Node there will be the chance to do the same things in new or better ways, to make different choices when faced with circumstances, situations and dynamics that the Soul has experienced in (perhaps quite recent) past lives.

Obviously Jupiter (Moon’s N.Node in Sag ruler) will be a key factor in what these choices will be. As examples of the extremes of the situation, if it was in the 4th or 2nd house it would strengthen the likelihood that the Soul would make choices in line with its own core inner intentions (Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd), whereas if it was in the 10th or the 9th house it may gravitate to old ways (Pluto S.Node in Cap in 9th) of dealing with similar situations encountered freshly in the new current life.

So in summary, while this Soul is embarking on a new evolutionary cycle (Pluto in 4th) it’s new current life that it has manifested is still intricately connected to relatively recent previous lives, and it will use material from those lives as part of it’s efforts to further it’s evolutionary intentions.

By realising it’s PPP it will be establishing it’s own individuality on a much more tangible basis than previously (PPP 10th house is more immediate than Pluto S.Node Cap), in a much more open way (PPP Aqu compared to Moon’s S.Node in 2nd , Pluto S.Node ruler in 8th). This in turn will prepare the Soul to come closer to it’s future desire (Pluto N.Node in Cancer in 2nd) as it will have completed a major involvement in society in a number of varying ways, and achieved a significant amount of understanding of natural and metaphysical laws and principles. Thus it will be able to withdraw largely on it’s own terms which is a primary requisite for realising the 2nd house archetype of self sufficiency & reliance.

During the current life the person may feel that their future and past are often intertwined, with a strong feeling of déjà vu at times. It may seem they are repeating things they feel they have finished with long ago, and even in the current life may restart things that they had thought they’d put behind them long before - Soul’s (Pluto’s) nodal rulers conjunct this life’s (Moon’s) nodes.

By the end of this current life, the various kinds of involvement with people that this Soul will have had via it’s 8th (Pluto S.Node ruler, Moon N.Node) and 4th (Pluto) houses, plus Gemini (Moon S.Node) and Moon (conjunct Moon S.Node) will have taught it some very fundamental and also very varied things about people and relationships with them. This will be preparing it for a more simple Cancer orientated involvement with people in the future (Pluto N.Node in Cancer).

***************

I don’t know what you’ll make of that Rad (!), it came in a burst of inspiration, but I would really like to know if it’s any good. It’s pretty long winded and may not be appropriate. In a way I feel as if I’m going way ahead of myself here, as I always felt I haven’t really grasped working with just the Pluto house, and Moon’s nodes and rulers yet, let alone diving into things at this level.  But I’ve done it now. If it’s off the mark I’d really appreciate to know that.

Thanks, Upasika
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010, 11:32 AM by Upasika » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 15, 2010, 11:31 AM »

Hi Upasika,

 You are demonstrating a very fine and keen intuitive ability to use and apply the reasoning inherent to the EA paradigm. What seemed to have just burst through you is VERY ACCURATE in what you have covered. There are of course other dimensions within all those archetypes but what you have covered thus far is very, very well reasoned and accurate. Bravo !!

 Rad
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Gonzalo
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 15, 2010, 01:54 PM »

Hi Rad ...

It seems that you missed my post/question ... it's the last post in the previous page of this thread ...

Thank you,

God Bless,

Gonzalo.


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Upasika
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 15, 2010, 05:31 PM »

Thank you Rad, thats very appreciated, its such a joy to be learning all this, Upasika.
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 16, 2010, 11:48 AM »

Hi Gonzalo,

     Sorry for missing your questions about this paradigm, and the example you used to try to understand it. In the symbols you used it would be more accurate to understand that this Soul, from within itself, has desired to positions of authority within a social context, a society, a tribe, a group of people, in which the Soul was responsible for supplying the needs of that group of people because of it's social position. This was reflecting the Soul's desire to be of service to a larger whole: Pluto in Virgo in relationship to it's S.Node in the 7th in Capricorn, ruled by the Saturn in Taurus in the 10th. Combined with the desire to be of service to a larger whole through the positions of social authority also reflects to Soul's desire to give to others what they have needed in order to survive: S.Node in Capricorn in the 7th, ruled by Saturn in Taurus in the 10th.

     The nature of the grand trine between his natal Pluto in Virgo in the 2nd, S.Node in the 7th, and Saturn in the 10th would mean that the Soul desired from within itself to learn how to listen to others needs in such a way as to attune itself to those needs. In so doing, the Soul then desired to give to others exactly what they needed in order to survive. Thus, the Soul would choose time frames and places to incarnate in which this underlying theme of survival was the consensus state of reality of those times. In actualizing itself in this way the Soul thus felt fulfilled and satisfied that it was able to help others based on their needs.

     Over many lifetimes the Soul then began to feel inwardly empty: Pluto in Virgo which is the current life birth symbol for the Soul. It has come to a point of evolutionary limitation in these prior desires, and the way that they manifested. Pluto in Virgo in the 2nd House.  Emptiness, feeling empty, is the archetype of Virgo. With the N.Node of Pluto in Cancer in the 1st House the Soul is desiring within itself to begin a brand new cycle of it's own evolutionary development that starts with accessing it's own emotional needs to BE GIVEN TOO: The S.Node interacting with the N.Node of Pluto in this context. In essence, the Soul has emptied itself in those lifetimes of giving to others in which survival of the whole group was on the line. It has reached a place of Soul exhaustion because of: Pluto's S.Node in Capricorn compounded by it's ruler being in Taurus in the natural Capricorn house.

     As a result the Soul is desiring personal renewal by beginning a brand new cycle in it's ongoing evolution: Pluto's  N.Node in Cancer in the 1st House.  With Pluto in Virgo in the 2nd in relation to it's N.Node it would have begun the process of ISOLATING itself from the overall environment in order to begin the process of inner renewal. In the current life it thus creates a egocentric structure, the Moon in Virgo in the 2nd, in which this Soul need to withdraw, based on where it has been, is simultaneously reflected in the Pluto in Virgo itself, where it had just left off previous to the current life, but remains to be a need of the Soul as manifested through the current life egocentric structure of itself manifesting as the Moon in Virgo in that 2nd House.

     This is where, when we begin to fill in the whole picture, to add the N and S Nodes of the Moon itself. The Soul, Pluto in Virgo in this case, is in the 2nd which of course correlates to where the Soul has been, and why, and where it has left off just previous to the current life. By establishing what has been going on within the Soul itself, Pluto and it's Nodes, their planetary rulers, the S.Node of the Moon will then correlate to specific lifetimes and the egocentric structures that the Soul has created to actualize the desires within it. The location of it's planetary ruler, aspects to it, aspects to the S.Node of the Moon, the location by House and Sign, all fill in what these past life, finite, lives have been. And all of this, in turn, of course establishes the individual context in which to understand the N.Node of Pluto by House and Sign, the natal position of Pluto, the current life Moon, and it's N.Node.

     Given that context of the past it thus establishes the reasons that the Soul needs to isolate itself. It's as if the Soul in this isolation will be rebuilding and renewing itself from within itself. It will be discovering new capacities and different dimensions of itself in this way. It will be giving to itself in this way, and it will attract others who are natural givers because the Soul desires to be given too based on where it has been. The prior context establishes this need from within the Soul, the interaction and evolution of the N.S Nodes of Pluto.

     These others will then be natural listeners who are able to evaluate what this Soul needs on a personal emotional basis in order to renew itself. Instead of being the server to others which it has done for many lives, it will desire to be served in this way: Pluto and the Moon being in Virgo in the 2nd. These others will also symbolize and reflect the specific life that the Soul is living by way of the 2nd House Pluto's polarity point into Pisces in the 8th. That Pisces polarity point trines the N.Node of Pluto itself. This means these types will be deeply and naturally psychological in nature. They will desire to penetrate to the core of themselves, as well as the core of this Soul. As a result, they will know what this Soul needs emotionally and psychologically in order to evolve from where they have  been. The natural planetary ruler of that Pisces polarity point would be Neptune. And that would then be in Scorpio in the 4th House of this chart. This reinforces the N.Node of Pluto being in Cancer, and the Soul's desire/ need to renew itself from within via it's emotional body.

     The Soul will orientate to activities that all have the intent of leading to personal Soul renewal, and discovery. Through natural evolutionary progression, given this context, the Soul will begin to emerge from this purposeful cocoon and once again begin to find new ways of integrating itself back into the world, the group, the tribe, with new roles that reflect it's own going desires to serve and to give to others what they need.

  Rad

     

     
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 16, 2010, 02:27 PM »

Hi,

 To add to this post about the EA paradigm about the Soul,, Pluto, how it actualizes itself, the link to it's Nodes, it's own individual identity, ego, that evolves through time by creating finite lives to do so that have their own finite ego, the Moon, this information about the totality of the EA paradigm in this way is exactly occurring AS THE TRANSITING N.NODE OF THE MOON IS CONJUNCT THE S.NODE OF PLUTO.

 Rad
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010, 03:25 PM by Rad » Logged
Gonzalo
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 16, 2010, 08:12 PM »

Hi Rad,

Thank you so much for your kind reply. What you are telling me really helps.

So, I would say this Soul given its prior exhaustion should have taken some time out of this dense plane for an overall renewal. I guess that was just not possible. It would seem that this Soul has some wrong ideas about what his involvement with spiritual life has been in prior lives; and what his reasons for guilt have been.

Hopefully this Soul will be contacting you within soon for the email five questions reading option.

Thanks again Rad,

God Bless,

Gonzalo.
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Elen
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 23, 2010, 07:43 PM »

Hi Rad,

Thanks for that foundation perspective, it clarifies the whole bottom line of the chart.

To clarify I understand correctly, this means then that ...

- Pluto (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodes (sign/house)
- Pluto's nodal rulers (sign/house)
- aspects from all of the above to other planets (and their signs/houses - and if more info is required, also their nodes)

... are the fundamental root of any chart.


Hi Rad and All,

I am just working my way through this thread and I am wondering what relevance the ruler of Pluto's sign has, if any, with regard to understanding Pluto.  (I don't think this was addressed, but if it was please just point me to the appropriate post.)

Thanks,
Ellen
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Rad
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 24, 2010, 02:50 PM »

Hi Ellen,

"I am just working my way through this thread and I am wondering what relevance the ruler of Pluto's sign has, if any, with regard to understanding Pluto.  (I don't think this was addressed, but if it was please just point me to the appropriate post.)"

***************************************************************************

First, the sign that Pluto is in, i.e, Leo, Virgo, etc CONTAINS within itself the archetype of the planet that rules that sign and, thus, how the Soul desires to actualize itself. The actual House and Sign of that planet that is the ruler of the Sign that the Soul is in acts like a tributary stream that feeds the main river of the Soul. The river itself is Pluto by House and Sign location, and it's N and S Nodes with their respective planetary rulers. The tributary streams that flow into that river are the aspects by other planets to these Nodes, their planetary rulers, and Pluto itself.

 Rad
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Elen
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 25, 2010, 05:31 PM »

Hi Ellen,

"I am just working my way through this thread and I am wondering what relevance the ruler of Pluto's sign has, if any, with regard to understanding Pluto.  (I don't think this was addressed, but if it was please just point me to the appropriate post.)"

***************************************************************************

First, the sign that Pluto is in, i.e, Leo, Virgo, etc CONTAINS within itself the archetype of the planet that rules that sign and, thus, how the Soul desires to actualize itself. The actual House and Sign of that planet that is the ruler of the Sign that the Soul is in acts like a tributary stream that feeds the main river of the Soul. The river itself is Pluto by House and Sign location, and it's N and S Nodes with their respective planetary rulers. The tributary streams that flow into that river are the aspects by other planets to these Nodes, their planetary rulers, and Pluto itself.

 Rad


Hi Rad,
I'm not quite getting this - don't quite have the feel for it yet.  Where I think I'm stuck is my habit of always looking at the ruler of a planet.  I understand that Pluto is the main factor - the river itself.  But say Pluto is in Sag in the 8th.  SN Taurus in 1st.  Jupiter's in Scorpio in the 7th.  Say 3rd stage individuated.  So maybe they've done some pretty deep psychological explorations to discover who they are within themselves and to get feedback so they can really nail down who they are (I'm not sure I'm interpreting the symbolism correctly...?)  Wouldn't the fact that Jupiter is in the 7th house be relevant, ie, that this exploration would have been done in the context of relationship? Also, Scorpio would suggest intensity in these relationships and perhaps manipulation....?


Thanks a ton,
Ellen[color]
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Rad
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 26, 2010, 11:10 AM »

Hi Ellen,

"I'm not quite getting this - don't quite have the feel for it yet.  Where I think I'm stuck is my habit of always looking at the ruler of a planet.  I understand that Pluto is the main factor - the river itself.  But say Pluto is in Sag in the 8th.  SN Taurus in 1st.  Jupiter's in Scorpio in the 7th.  Say 3rd stage individuated.  So maybe they've done some pretty deep psychological explorations to discover who they are within themselves and to get feedback so they can really nail down who they are (I'm not sure I'm interpreting the symbolism correctly...?)  Wouldn't the fact that Jupiter is in the 7th house be relevant, ie, that this exploration would have been done in the context of relationship? Also, Scorpio would suggest intensity in these relationships and perhaps manipulation....?"

*****************************************************************************

     The Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th, the river of the Soul, has desired to understand the WHY'S of  life itself, the causes and effects of anything, human psychology in it's fullest dimensions, its' own psychology and the causes of it, and Natural Laws of Creation itself, how people in general interpret the phenomena of life in all of its' forms and dimensions, what motivates people and why, and the sexual realities and the reasons for those realities in human nature, and so on. One the tributary streams that feeds this Soul river, with Jupiter in Scorpio in  the 7th, would correlate with the cultural anthropology of humans in diverse cultures, tribes, and societies that the Soul would contemplate in order to understand the core desires as manifesting in the 8th House Pluto. This contemplation would be fueled by reading a variety of materials, traveling to many places, and observing the diversity of peoples. The S.Node being in Taurus, in the 1st, creates and egocentric structure in which the Soul keeps itself distant and independent from people in general.  This symbolism correlates to a banyan tree that remains rooted in one place for thousands of years while the panorama of time passes it by. The banyan tree, the egocentric structure, thus is secure within it's own inner isolation as it observes and learns by all that which passes it by. On a very selective basis the Soul through it's 1st House Taurus egocentric structure would engage others in relationship, the tributary stream of the Jupiter in Scorpio in the 7th relative to Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th House, that were inwardly evaluated to be of use by the Soul for it's evolutionary intentions: needs. In turn, this would set in motion very intense and deep philosophical and psychological type discussions in which the core desires of the Soul were being met.

     In your example this would then place the evolving egocentric structure, one of the core evolutionary intentions, in the 7th House: N.Node in the 7th in Scorpio. This would then mean, that as a next step in the Soul's evolution, that it now must learn how to jump out of it's cocoon of self isolation: S.Node in Taurus in the 1st. Rather than observing in such isolation in the ways that it has before, it must now learn how to FULLY ENGAGE, emotionally and psychologically, others. The Soul intends to learn how to be in relationships with others in general in this way, and learn how to commit to being with a parter on a one to one basis. It is thus learning how to unite a core psychological and emotional paradox, the core paradox manifesting from the Soul. And that is the paradox of needing total independence and freedom relative to committing to others in general, and a partner specifically.
   

  Rad
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Elen
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 27, 2010, 11:52 AM »

Hi Ellen,

"I'm not quite getting this - don't quite have the feel for it yet.  Where I think I'm stuck is my habit of always looking at the ruler of a planet.  I understand that Pluto is the main factor - the river itself.  But say Pluto is in Sag in the 8th.  SN Taurus in 1st.  Jupiter's in Scorpio in the 7th.  Say 3rd stage individuated.  So maybe they've done some pretty deep psychological explorations to discover who they are within themselves and to get feedback so they can really nail down who they are (I'm not sure I'm interpreting the symbolism correctly...?)  Wouldn't the fact that Jupiter is in the 7th house be relevant, ie, that this exploration would have been done in the context of relationship? Also, Scorpio would suggest intensity in these relationships and perhaps manipulation....?"

*****************************************************************************

    The Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th, the river of the Soul, has desired to understand the WHY'S of  life itself, the causes and effects of anything, human psychology in it's fullest dimensions, its' own psychology and the causes of it, and Natural Laws of Creation itself, how people in general interpret the phenomena of life in all of its' forms and dimensions, what motivates people and why, and the sexual realities and the reasons for those realities in human nature, and so on. One the tributary streams that feeds this Soul river, with Jupiter in Scorpio in  the 7th, would correlate with the cultural anthropology of humans in diverse cultures, tribes, and societies that the Soul would contemplate in order to understand the core desires as manifesting in the 8th House Pluto. This contemplation would be fueled by reading a variety of materials, traveling to many places, and observing the diversity of peoples. The S.Node being in Taurus, in the 1st, creates and egocentric structure in which the Soul keeps itself distant and independent from people in general.  This symbolism correlates to a banyan tree that remains rooted in one place for thousands of years while the panorama of time passes it by. The banyan tree, the egocentric structure, thus is secure within it's own inner isolation as it observes and learns by all that which passes it by. On a very selective basis the Soul through it's 1st House Taurus egocentric structure would engage others in relationship, the tributary stream of the Jupiter in Scorpio in the 7th relative to Pluto in Sagittarius in the 8th House, that were inwardly evaluated to be of use by the Soul for it's evolutionary intentions: needs. In turn, this would set in motion very intense and deep philosophical and psychological type discussions in which the core desires of the Soul were being met.

     In your example this would then place the evolving egocentric structure, one of the core evolutionary intentions, in the 7th House: N.Node in the 7th in Scorpio. This would then mean, that as a next step in the Soul's evolution, that it now must learn how to jump out of it's cocoon of self isolation: S.Node in Taurus in the 1st. Rather than observing in such isolation in the ways that it has before, it must now learn how to FULLY ENGAGE, emotionally and psychologically, others. The Soul intends to learn how to be in relationships with others in general in this way, and learn how to commit to being with a parter on a one to one basis. It is thus learning how to unite a core psychological and emotional paradox, the core paradox manifesting from the Soul. And that is the paradox of needing total independence and freedom relative to committing to others in general, and a partner specifically.
   

  Rad

Hi Rad,
I think I am getting this but I want to be sure.  In my example I had Jupiter (ruler of Pluto's sign) in the same house as the NN and in Scorpio, Pluto's natural sign rulership.  If it were, instead, say, in the 5th house in Virgo, would the search (Jupiter) re: the "why's" being asked by Pluto in Sag in the 8th be focused more on understanding the psychology of feelings of profound emptiness due to a sense of lack in terms of one's life purpose?  Would that now be one of the tributaries? There would still be the need to jump out of the coccoon (SN Taurus 1st/NN Libra 7th).  But would Jupiter/Virgo/5th color the nature of that coccoon (SN) simply because it rules the sign that Pluto is in?

Does this makes sense?

Ellen
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2010, 12:03 PM by Ellen » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 27, 2010, 01:29 PM »

Hi Ellen


"I think I am getting this but I want to be sure.  In my example I had Jupiter (ruler of Pluto's sign) in the same house as the NN and in Scorpio, Pluto's natural sign rulership.  If it were, instead, say, in the 5th house in Virgo, would the search (Jupiter) re: the "why's" being asked by Pluto in Sag in the 8th be focused more on understanding the psychology of feelings of profound emptiness due to a sense of lack in terms of one's life purpose?  Would that now be one of the tributaries? There would still be the need to jump out of the coccoon (SN Taurus 1st/NN Libra 7th).  But would Jupiter/Virgo/5th color the nature of that coccoon (SN) simply because it rules the sign that Pluto is in?"

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In the 3rd Stage individuated, as per your example, the answer would be yes. The nature of the cocoon would be colored by whatever House and Sign the Jupiter would be in as that tributary flows into the river of the Soul itself. In your example this would also include within the Soul a very critical self analysis of any over identification with the the egocentric word " I " which is reinforced through the specific egocentric structure the Soul has created via the S.Node in Taurus in the 1st House, the natural ARIES House. As a result, the Soul would also then be very critical of all others who were parading their egos around in a peacock like fashion. Within this, the Soul would be critically examinng the very purpose of life itself: the 5th House of course being Sun ruled..purpose. And, thus, be inwardly focused on determining it's own specific life's purpose, it's reason for incarnating in the first place. Relative to the river, the 8th House Pluto in Sagittarius, the tirbutary stream symbolized in Jupiter in Virgo in the 5th, that purpose would be linked with naturally desiring to help other Soul's fulfill their own life purposes, their reasons for being. As a result, there would be a natural attraction to the helping professions. Within all of this, the tributary stream feeding the river of the Soul is one wherein the Soul will constantly be desiring to improve itself, to focus on all of it's perceived shortcomings, and doing something about that. In turn, the Soul will natually have this focus towards others in general, and intimate others specifically. This is just some of the stuff that this tributary stream creates within the Soul itself.

 Rad
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Elen
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 02, 2010, 02:52 PM »

Hi Ellen


"I think I am getting this but I want to be sure.  In my example I had Jupiter (ruler of Pluto's sign) in the same house as the NN and in Scorpio, Pluto's natural sign rulership.  If it were, instead, say, in the 5th house in Virgo, would the search (Jupiter) re: the "why's" being asked by Pluto in Sag in the 8th be focused more on understanding the psychology of feelings of profound emptiness due to a sense of lack in terms of one's life purpose?  Would that now be one of the tributaries? There would still be the need to jump out of the coccoon (SN Taurus 1st/NN Libra 7th).  But would Jupiter/Virgo/5th color the nature of that coccoon (SN) simply because it rules the sign that Pluto is in?"

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In the 3rd Stage individuated, as per your example, the answer would be yes. The nature of the cocoon would be colored by whatever House and Sign the Jupiter would be in as that tributary flows into the river of the Soul itself. In your example this would also include within the Soul a very critical self analysis of any over identification with the the egocentric word " I " which is reinforced through the specific egocentric structure the Soul has created via the S.Node in Taurus in the 1st House, the natural ARIES House. As a result, the Soul would also then be very critical of all others who were parading their egos around in a peacock like fashion. Within this, the Soul would be critically examinng the very purpose of life itself: the 5th House of course being Sun ruled..purpose. And, thus, be inwardly focused on determining it's own specific life's purpose, it's reason for incarnating in the first place. Relative to the river, the 8th House Pluto in Sagittarius, the tirbutary stream symbolized in Jupiter in Virgo in the 5th, that purpose would be linked with naturally desiring to help other Soul's fulfill their own life purposes, their reasons for being. As a result, there would be a natural attraction to the helping professions. Within all of this, the tributary stream feeding the river of the Soul is one wherein the Soul will constantly be desiring to improve itself, to focus on all of it's perceived shortcomings, and doing something about that. In turn, the Soul will natually have this focus towards others in general, and intimate others specifically. This is just some of the stuff that this tributary stream creates within the Soul itself.

 Rad

Hi Rad,
Thanks so much.  Your "readings" are so eloquent and make such tremendous sense.  If the person were, say, 3rd stage consensus instead of 3rd stage individuated, are you saying that Jupiter's rulership of Pluto's sign would NOT be relevant?  Or would it be that it would manifest differently, ie, as religion (identifying one's ego w/ religion, as an example)?  So, regardless of evolutionary state, it would still be a tributary, but feed in differently to a river that itself was manifesting differently...?

Thank you so much,
Ellen

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Rad
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 03, 2010, 10:11 AM »

HI Ellen,

"So, regardless of evolutionary state, it would still be a tributary, but feed in differently to a river that itself was manifesting differently...?"

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Yes. This is why it is so critical to understand the specific evolutionary state of any given Soul. The evolutionary state conditions the entire EA paradigm, and thus how the archetypes are orientated to.

 Rad
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